#510 - Client Questions: Phasing Projects and Starting Before the Architect is Hired

Welcome and answering client questions

0:00This is the second studio hosted by the Architecture and Design Office fame. My name is David Lee, and with me is Marina Bordero-Nay. The two of us are architects, partners at the office, and of course, hosts of the show. And today it's the two of us in the studio, and we're doing a Project Companion episode. And so we're going to answer questions that we've received from clients, prospective clients, email inquiries. And this might be a reoccurring segment. It's a pretty easy way to...

0:30...have something to talk about. Just have to write them down. But yeah. Yeah. Well, that is the issue is that... We don't. We don't. And so I will have to keep track of those more often. I'm waiting for the AI chip to be able to put in your brain so it keeps track of all that stuff. I mean, there's apps and stuff to do that already. We're just not using them. There's too many apps.

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Phasing a construction project

2:23Here we go.

Phasing a construction project

2:24First question that we get pretty often is whether or not, as I'm the client, whether or not I can phase my project and do it in pieces, and if that's a good idea or a bad idea. Well, first of all, people ask, like, will you work on a project that is phased? Yeah, of course. I mean, I think if it's phased in a way that makes sense, it's totally doable. And, you know, I think we also understand that, you know, clients and the funds available to start a project or, like, the life changes that might happen in the next 5, 10 years might require the project to evolve as well.

2:58So I think it's part of the challenge of projects. So I don't think that's return on for us at all.

3:05You know, if it's a good idea to phase, it really depends what you mean by phasing and how you're phasing it. I think there is a lot of bad ways of phasing a project and there is a lot of ways, like, make a complete sense. Yeah. I mean, the thing we see the most is, like, in terms of phasing maybe would be, like, an addition be done later on. So, like, let's say a client bought a house and it needs renovation. They would do renovation on the main house and then maybe later they'll build an ADU, a pool house, a pool, you know, and do that kind of work.

3:37And that might not happen right now because, again, they don't have the funds or the energy and they just want to move in and just kind of postpone some of the wish list item to be done at a later time, which I think is totally fair. Yeah. That makes sense, right? Because you probably want to move in the house to get an understanding of how you want to live in that new house. And those accessory structures, like, things happening in the backyard, like, you might have some ideas, but it might not really be set in stone. Now, where I think it becomes trickier to sequence the work is when the work overlaps between the phases, right?

4:12Because it's always kind of, like, the tricky point of sequencing construction or remodel or additions, right? It's like you do this stuff once, but then you're going to have to come in later, do more work, and you're going to have to redo the stuff that you already paid for on the first time around. And there is kind of, like, redundant cost in doing that. Sometimes it's minor and it makes sense and it's inevitable, right? And sometimes it's too much that it's a little bit of a waste. So I think that's the hardest split. Yeah. Those are all great points.

4:42I like the observation that if it's a new property and a new house and new living experience, there's value in being in there for a certain period of time before truly knowing what you want out of the final version of that property and house. And, yeah, sometimes it's driven by the fact that, you know, you have bought a property and you just want to get in. You need to leave the other place. You're tired of the other place or you need more space for your family or whatever it is.

5:13You have to get in there. But the house is in disrepair, so you need to do some amount of work to make it livable and hopefully enjoyable as well. The easiest type of phased projects to do are when the construction work for phase two or phase three is completely detached. Yeah. And there's also accessibility to the site to do that work, right? You're not having to go around weird ways or through really tight outdoor spaces to then build that thing.

5:44So phasing is totally doable, but it generally does require more collaborative conversations much earlier on than typical. So in a normal project, you know, obviously anyone who's listening to us, they know that we're big advocates of onboarding as many people as possible early. Not everyone is onboarded on day one, but, you know, GC should be onboarded very early. Engineers, in a lot of cases, I'd advocate they should be onboarded early.

6:15Get everyone early, early, early. In phased projects, that becomes no longer, it's not optional. Like, you really have to do it. So what I was going to say in a normal project, if the GC is not onboarded, you know, as early as we would like or the engineer, we've done enough projects. We know roughly how it's going to go. We know from historical data and expertise and experience, okay, we can do this thing. There's a 95% chance it's going to work out this way. I don't need to talk to a GC about it. I've seen it before.

6:46Phasing, though, especially when their work is physically overlapped or they're attached to each other, that's a very, very nuanced conversation about, like, beam sizes, foundation sizes. Can you get the equipment you need back here at that moment? How do I deal with this juncture? It is a large-scale conversation that is driven by details, detailed conversation and details of practicality of construction methods a lot of times.

7:19And so it's just not possible to really figure out the best path for phasing for when it would happen or rather the scope of the phases unless you have typically those three players involved, at least. Yeah, it becomes tricky, especially when you're touching the envelope. I mean, you know, if you're, let's say, okay, you know, you bought a house, remodeling the kitchen and two bathrooms, and there is, like, two other bathrooms you don't want to remodel now. You would do that in, like, five years when the kids are out of the house and you can actually make it nice, right? I think that's fine because the scope is isolated.

7:51Yeah, it's controlled. But, you know, let's say you want to do an addition on top of your house, but you also want to remodel or build new the first story. You have to take into consideration what's going to be going on top of that. And I think in an ideal scenario, you want to design the whole project with all the phases in and then just kind of, like, work backwards to see, like, what do we need to do now to also make sure that we accommodate for that phase two later. Yeah, yeah, so I want to talk about that because one of the other sub-questions we get in this topic is how much of the final scope of work needs to be designed in order to work backward and, you know, parse out what's phase one and where does it stop before phase two, you know, begins in terms of scope.

8:38And the answer varies depending on the project, but we don't need to fully design phase two. And especially time is a factor as well, right? If phase two is going to happen just a couple years after phase one is complete, then there's more reason for us to design it all at once because it's very much known. It's close. If phase two is, like, five years down the line or more, then with the way the world works and time goes by and life changes, I actually advocate more often to clients than let us do, like, concept design for phase two but not go further than that because I don't want you paying me to design this whole thing when five years from now you're going to be a different person depending on their age and when they're having kids and all that other stuff too.

9:22What we design now might not make sense for you in five years after you've, you know, lived in the property and whatever else. So it's this, you know, fine line, this balancing act of us designing enough of the entire thing, including phase two, so that we can do phase one with confidence, but not so much to where we're potentially wasting the client's money or our creative effort for something that's not going to eventually, you know, make sense. But you need to have that full vision to a degree because I've also seen, I've had clients on the other side of it say, like, I just want to focus on phase one.

10:02I don't really care about phase two. I know as a client, I have an idea of what it is, and that's good enough for me. I'm like, yeah, no, that's not good enough for me, though. Like, I don't trust you as a non-professional to understand what you want in phase two well enough for me to not sketch out phase two in some capacity. Which, not to go off on a tangent, which also alludes to the other, the larger idea that most clients come to a new project with ideas of what it's going to be like, obviously.

10:37That could be aesthetic things. It could be about a window brand they like. It could be about program. It could be about the height of the building. It could be about a lot of different things. And truthfully, let's say a client comes to the table with half a dozen things they've decided, they feel like they've decided on. Maybe one of those six things will actually make it into the project in the way that they envision. The other five, we find out a better way to achieve their actual goal without doing what they had preconceived. So, there's no way, there's really no reality, no project where I would just rely on the client's assumptions about phase two without us having done some work.

11:19And really what that means is us engaging with them and asking questions and making sure that what they envision does actually truly align with their internal goals. And oftentimes they're slightly different things. So, I think to your point, it does need to be thought about because the worst thing you can do is go through this effort of phase one. And regardless of the scope of phase one, it's still a construction project. It's a lot of time, money, effort, headache, really. And then realize like, oh, we didn't site plan this right.

11:52You know, because now at phase two, we want to have this thing. But that thing ideally would go here, but we can't put it here now because we did phase one a certain way. Yeah, no, and I don't think you need to do full CDs. But I do think, yeah, you do need to have the overall vision kind of like decided on to make sure you look at things in a way that makes sense. And also because, you know, again, like from like a permitting standpoint, you have certain limits. You don't want to like under limit yourself or over limit yourself if you don't have to. So I think doing the due diligence at the beginning to make sure that you've done that homework before you can think about, you know, doing phase two.

12:29I think the thing that clients don't always realize is when you're phasing a project, that means you're going to be doing two projects, basically. Right. You're going to be doing phase one and then a few years later you're going to be doing phase two. And I think, and it's hard for people to know if they're cut for that or not, if it's the first time they do a project. So I would say you have to be very careful if you decide to phase your project because if you're able to go through doing it once, that's great.

13:02You can probably do it again. Some clients also really struggle in going through projects. So you might not ever do phase two because you get so tired and overwhelmed and stressed out and whatever else with phase one that phase two is never going to happen. So I think the first question for a client is really to ask themselves, like, why do I need to, do I need to phase a project? Why do I need to phase? Do I think I want to go through construction again in like two, three, five years once phase one is completed?

13:33And what that would look like, do I have to move out of my house? Can I be working from home when the work happens? How long will the work take to be done? You know, we're talking about three months. We're talking about a whole year of construction. So there is kind of like, and those are valid questions to ask, you know, the architect they're considering of hiring or they've hired to kind of like understand, you know, should I do that? Should I not do that? Yeah. So for some context, the, the phased approach can apply to very different scales of projects.

14:06And so when I was talking, I was visualizing site planning, which obviously is not just an inter remodel thing. That's a new construction site with multiple structures. But so we've done projects that are phased in that way. There's the primary residence at a bunch of accessory structures and pools and landscaping and whatever else. We've done projects where the phasing is, um, second phase is just a standalone ADU. So not as much as what I just described, but it is a detached structure. We've done ones, uh, where the phasing is like, we're doing some, you know, the clients need to move in.

14:43So we're doing some amount of work now so they can live there. But the phase two is inverted phase two is actually the main projects in phase one is kind of like the temp temp quote temporary one. And, uh, ones that are like a 50 50 split and, and where the, the, the scope of work bleeding over, it gets quite tricky to figure out with a GC and engineer. Um, but it's a good point. Like these projects take a bit of grit to get through them. It's not really for everybody. And it's hard to know, I think for a first time client, meaning they've never experienced a project, whether or not they're the type of person that can do it a second time.

15:21There's clients that they do it once. They're like, no, no way. I'm not doing that again. And to be fair, also, I think a lot of times those folks, uh, it's like, well, it's because you did not have the right team. Um, and other folks though, they go through the process and they might not also have, have not had the right team, but they're like, yeah, actually that was kind of, they kind of enjoyed it. I'm like, there's something wrong with you. Then they enjoyed it. They're like, this was interesting and a little stressful, but like, I'm excited to do the next one.

15:51Um, I think also there is a misconception about phasing projects where, you know, client things said they're going to be saving money.

Cost and labor impacts of phasing

15:59Oh, no, no. Um, I mean, if you have limited funds to do the project, then, you know, you're going to do it one phase because it's what you can afford now. Oh, I mean, you're, you're, you're going to phase it because that's all you can afford is phasing. Yeah. But if you think like, I don't know, it would save money to do it into different, that doesn't work like that. If you think it's going to save time, yes and no. I mean, again, it's going to, you might be able to move in faster, but you're going to have another, you know, a construction crew coming back again for a disturbing period of time.

16:33Right. So, uh, you know, you're not really saving on time either. And then the cost too. I mean, you know, if you, if you can get it all done at once, it will be cheaper because as we know, construction cost never goes down. So, you know, if you do the work that phase two in three, five years is going to be three, five years plus whatever inflation from today. Yeah. So it's kind of like, you know, it's a difficult thing to, to wrestle with. Yeah. Um, if you were to ask any general contractor, if phasing is going to, how phasing would impact the cost, they will 10 out of 10 times tell you it's going to increase the price of the project.

17:12One, because things get more expensive over time. Um, hopefully, you know, if you're working, the amount of money you make is, is escalating or increasing at a higher rate than, than inflation, um, which is part of the calculation. Well, that's part of the calculation you have to do as a client. You have to do as a client. Um, but the other reason why that more logistically it's more expensive to phase as a part of the construction costs is it's not just material. It's mobilization.

17:42It's getting people out there. So when we're doing larger projects that have multiple components or multiple structures, you do, you want to have X trade, go out there at one time, do all their work and then leave. You pay them for the day or half day. You don't want them to. The more you have for them to do that day on site, the more for your buck you're going to get. Exactly. So like we're talking about right now, uh, this other project where we might be doing a series of, of buildings and we're, we're talking about this, you know, phasing.

18:15Cause we're not going to do all 12 of them or whatever it's going to be at once. Like how we're going to, what we're going to do. And, uh, the first thing that we were talking about with the, our kind of in-house GC is like foundations. We've got to do all, if we can, it might not work, but if we can do all the foundations at once. Cause you don't want that crew to have to come back a separate time for foundations. Um, again, sometimes it's not, it's not possible, but, but so, yeah, so the mobilization is something that does increase the cost. But again, there's so many other factors that weigh in that that might be minor.

18:45And actually something also to think about is, you know, the labor that's building the project, right? And I think depending again on like the scope and like what the phases involve, but you might want to have the same people built that phase too. Yeah. You know, because of carrying the same detail because of making sure that the craftsmanship is as good or the same, or, um, I mean, even in terms of product, you know, like if you do, let's say a portion of the house now and another portion in five years, things would have aged.

19:22You know, like the wood would have weathered if you had a wood siding. So it's kind of, you know, the, the look of the new versus the one that was there before. And maybe it's no big deal, just like a couple of years. And then it's all, you know, at the same level of finishes. But I think, yeah, the level of craftsmanship and the, like what the, the end result and how important it is for it to be built by the same people or not is something to consider. If you do again, just do like an interior remodel of a bathroom or a kitchen, like maybe you could have a different guy do it.

19:52That's no big deal. But if you're building an addition to your house, you might want the guy who built the house to do that addition. Yeah. You know, the materials aging is a good one. And that's a tricky one to, to, to deal with. Fortunately, you know, if we're talking about wood, all wood ages. And if you let it go long enough, it'll catch up to itself in a way. But it reminds me, as you were speaking, that there is in all projects for the construction crew and also the design people, like art, like architects, designers, engineers, there's like a, a built up, you know, conceptual, like meta knowledge of the project that you get when you, you have, when you get into it.

20:30And this is for any project, for any profession, like the starting up takes time and it's slow to start up because you're trying to get your bearings, get oriented and learn things. And then once you're in the flow, you're cruising at 80 miles an hour, you're just going. And, you know, on a much smaller scale, that's not really for phasing, but when we have projects be put on hold for months, it takes a week or two weeks for everyone on the soft cost side, like architects to get back into, because we don't remember all of the 1000 details.

21:01And even with the, you know, email threads, meeting notes, BIM modeling, AI taking notes for us, all these things, the amount of, of information, like small bits of information, big bits of information that are stored in the human mind for a project is exponentially higher than all that data. Yeah. And that's the stuff that is buried in the mind. But when months go by, they have to resurface. It takes time to unarchive them. Yeah. And so there is definitely an efficiency where if the crew, the team is able to, once they're started, just go all the way until the end and not have these interruptions of either delays that last really long time or phasing.

21:45So that's, it's a more of an elusive thought, I suppose, but it's a real one. It takes time to start up and then to wind down and start up again and then wind down again. So, yeah. But again, if you've got to phase, you've got to phase. Yeah. And I think, you know, if phasing is even part of the equation of a project, I think it's very important to discuss it early on. You know, sometimes, sometimes you see clients like starting with the whole project and then I guess things get real or, you know, things like start to get drawn.

22:20They're like, oh, maybe we can do that later. Maybe we can do that later. So it kind of comes down to like, what, what do you need now? What is the priority? What is less a priority? Like what could get VE'd? What could get sequenced? You know, stuff like that. I think those are conversations that are helpful to happen at the very beginning. Yeah. Transparency is, is, is the best thing. You can't go through these projects as a client and not be transparent with your team. Even this is a separate, separate issue, but even to the degree of like, how's this project being financed?

22:52And I ask clients more this more, especially with fire rebuilds. It's important for me to know like how tight things truly are, but like houses being financed. Because that does for sure shape the flexibility of the project and all projects have flexibility dictated by the client first and foremost. But the transparency thing reminds me that, you know, I was talking about onboarding everyone early. Like as a client, you, you have to learn to rely on letting all those people talk and letting them have multiple meetings with each other and with you, you there.

23:23The mistake I see clients make very often for this and also in general is they try to make a determination in this case is about phasing and the scope of phasing too soon. And I feel like we and the other professionals are constantly saying like, okay, we got this piece of information. That's cool. Now, if I had to put a number to it, there's like a 70% chance we should phase that way. And very often clients are like, okay, so we're going to do it that way. No, no, that's not what we're saying.

23:55That's one piece of information. Let's go get the other two, three, four, five, six, seven, 12, 20 pieces of information by these different consultants, the half a dozen consultants and meet as a group and then, and then decide. And then maybe even reflect on it and then decide. But rushing to make a decision in the early phases is probably top three most common mistake or misstep I see clients make. And I don't know. My theory is that it is human nature to want answers and to not want to be in floating in this ambiguous abyss of like, it could be, it could be, it could be, it could be.

24:34The, it could be was multiplied by like 10 times, right? But that's the space we live in. So recently for me, been working with some folks and it's, it's a mixture of professionals and then people who don't do this for a living clients, let's say. And, um, the professionals were having these initial meetings and we're all fairly calm despite there being a universe of unknowns because we know they will have to figure it out. We know that we will get there even if the path to getting there is not clear, but for the people who haven't done this before, they're kind of, they're, they're like, wait, so, so if we do that, does that mean this would just, do they want to like calc it out now?

25:14And I had to tell them, I said, look, this is going to be a series of conversations. And until we have all the information we need, a decision is not going to be rendered. So if you want to walk away from the first couple of meetings and tell yourself internally for your own peace of mind, that it's going to be that way, you can do that, but just know you're probably going to be wrong. And there's no need to end every meeting with like, okay, then this is what we're going to do.

25:44It's too early to decide. We need to figure out the soils. We need to figure out the location of the, the, I don't know, the, to my, the wetlands, the setbacks, the septic tank, you know, the, the, the latest thing with permitting, the cost of this, the cost, there's a bunch of stuff. And so it does take time. And so I would say, you know, for clients, you don't have to enjoy it because it's uncomfortable, but just understand that there's going to be that phase where things are up in the air and you just have to let the professionals take the few weeks or whatever it is to get all a piece of information and then render an actual decision instead of trying to force it for your own, you know, mental comfort.

26:25Oh, yeah. I think that's a, I think that's a good one. Like the, the rush decision. And you're right. I mean, a lot of people are uncomfortable in the unknown, no control. Like I have to wait for the people to let me know like what, what should be done type of thing. You know, not everyone can feel comfortable working that way or like, are they going to forget? Is it ever going to get resolved? And, and the thing is, yeah, it will. It will. And it's just so there is a marching order and, and, and like how and when and what gets resolved.

26:57And, and, and that's also like, you know, a common mistake number two from clients is to bring up, I don't know, like material selection where we don't even know what the building is going to look like. Yeah. You know, like, and, and, and, and, you know, it's not their fault. Like they don't know the process and what the order of priority of the things we're going to be looking at. So it's totally understandable. It's a, it's a lot of, it's a lot of maybes. We'll see. It depends. Yeah. Which is not super exciting or reassuring to hear, you know, it's like, well, that's not an answer.

27:28Yeah. Like, well, yeah, you get the answer later. Like you have to, have to wait. That's the game. That's the deal. I don't know what it is. I don't know what it wants to be. We'll find out. Yeah, I have to say one of my, my most uncomfortable situations to be in is when it's early in the project and let's say we're on the site and people just start throwing out ideas. And I'm, I'm usually, I don't say anything because if I were to speak honestly, well, I'll say, well, if I were to speak honestly and bluntly, I'd probably say none of this matters what all of you are saying.

28:00It doesn't matter. It's just noise. Because what we need to do is gather information, go to our office, reflect, come up with some ideas and then propose them to you. All this fluff about materials or this window brand or someone talked about, oh, you know, it's flooded. So we got it. We have to do this kind of foundation. Like this is just noise. Like it's all just, it's nothing. And by the way, too, not to, not to be demeaning, but a lot of these ideas that are sprinkled or sometimes they're pitched very heavily. You know, you're talking about one of 70,000 decisions that we have to make as an architect.

28:34So what appears to be a important big decision that's the idea that people put forth is not. It's like, yeah, that's one of a bajillion things. We'll see if it's going to be that. We have to let all the other things impact it. But, you know, I see that happen often, again, I'm on a tangent, but with designers or other creative people, whatever, because it's a way for them to sound exciting, confident as if they know what they're doing.

29:07But it's all a facade. It's like, no, if you knew what you were doing, you wouldn't be jumping to conclusions because, you know, that's not how this works. And I think it's just a, I also don't care for that because it sets up a, it's like a false promise. You're spewing all this stuff. And then the client, if they don't know about this process or haven't gone through a project, they're thinking, okay, so it's going to be that. Then you do a 180 later on because it's not that. They're like, wait, what? I thought we talked about that on site. And to be honest, also, they're knowing things like when people start spewing, like design ideas on the site meeting or stuff, it's like, well, first of all, it's my job to do that.

29:44So I appreciate the brainstorming and you're like getting excited about it, but it's my job. Like, I'm not pitching how you should be doing your job. So, you know, first of all, like know who you're talking to. And also, maybe if you have an idea, pitch it to me first instead of like pitching it to the whole crowd, the whole audience. Well, the funny thing, though, is that. Um, you know, a lot of times it's like trying to look good to the ears of the clients, you know, a little bit, a little bit of like, who's going to be the favorite of the class today? Who's going to get the bonus points, you know? And it's kind of like, that's not what I'm going there for.

30:17My, this is also ties in my personality, maybe, so I'm biased, but in like a classroom setting, who is the one that is the wisest and smartest? It's the kid who listens. It's not the kid who's constantly like spewing out stuff. They're listening. And a big part of being an architect or designing something more specifically is listening. Listening spiritually, literally listening with your eyes. It's absorbing information and being open to it. And if you're constantly throwing out just stuff, you're not listening.

30:49You're just, you're, you're doing, you're throwing out stuff. And, um, and, and I, and I think that's, uh, we were talking with someone recently, not an architect, but they work with architects. And they made an interesting remark, uh, at the beginning of this relationship with them. They said, you know, I've learned because I've worked with enough, worked with enough architects now that you guys, architects in general, you like to, I have a meeting and go back and reflect. And then you come back with an answer. You don't really do well with like make an answer right now.

31:21No. And the whole like brainstorming collectively.

31:26The thing is, what I find annoying is like when the collective brainstorming happens with that visual, without drawing, without 3D. And like, who knows, whatever we're discussing looks like in each of those people's mind as we're all talking. And it's like, we should be visualizing completely different things in our heads. So it's kind of like a pointless talk to have. It's like, it's like trying to, I don't know, like, you know, find a solution to a very complex mathematic equation without running it on the wall.

32:00Like you could only do that if you're a genius. Like you can't otherwise, right? Yeah. And so therefore it's a waste of time. It's a waste of time. The tricky thing in those situations is that because there's no visual and there's no evidence as to whether or not what's being discussed is valid or not valid. Or there's no, there's no evidence, a weight, a criteria set because it's all just words floating up in the concept space. That it becomes easy for anyone to argue that it's good, that it's good.

32:33And suddenly you have all these people saying, oh, it's great, it's great, it's great. And again, meanwhile, I feel like it's often time the architect is the one that's quiet thinking like, this is not, this is not great. Either for reasons that they know, but would take time to express and they aren't able to carve out the space because everyone keeps just talking and piling on top of each other. Or frankly, sometimes it's just intuition based on expertise and experience. Like, nah, something about this is off. And I'm thinking, I don't know exactly what it is, but my spidey sense tells me this is off.

33:06And I know for sure if I go back and I look through all the documentation that my heart is telling, my gut is telling me to go toward, I'd find out why it's not a good idea.

33:17And it's tough too, because I don't want to be a downer and shoot down ideas and things. I just let everyone dream and then you can just send an email the next day and be like, by the way, this doesn't work. But you know, you're talking about solving a math problem without drawing it. It's like, you know, the advanced chess players play chess while driving a car and talking to each other because they know the board so well. I can do that. I'm not a professional chess player. Well, you know, not to compare ourselves to like Queen's Gambit lady, but it's sort of like that.

33:49Because we work in a visual medium. That's what we do. We can see it and other people can't. But how do I do that? So we know the project in 2D and 3D very well. Right. So we have that map in our head. Yeah. It becomes very difficult, therefore, as an architect, even if you know the reason why it doesn't work, to express those things, because really what we should be doing is looking at a drawing or a sketch that we've done or the performer or the estimate or whatever it is. And we can see it as clear as if it was in front of me.

34:20Right. Other people can't. So how do you do that when you're in the middle of the site and everyone's pointing in, there's birds flying around and stuff? We just take notes and then, you know, go back to people. And then shoot them down later. Yeah. And now a quick break to thank the sponsors who support The Second Studio. The Second Studio is brought to you by Chaos. They make award-winning design and visualization tools, and they're really pushing the boundaries with AI. As we all know, AI is shaking up the architecture and design world, and Chaos is taking a responsible approach.

34:52Their tools are built to help architects, designers, and visualization specialists work faster and explore more ideas without replacing creativity. Basically, Chaos wants AI to make your imagination stronger and not take over. So you get to design with more freedom, create stunning visuals, and stay in control of your work. If you want to see what that looks like, tap the Chaos link in our show notes.

What to do before hiring an architect

35:11Okay.

What to do before hiring an architect

35:12Here is another question we had. What can I start with before I sign with an architect? It depends on the architect you're going with. So we act as a project manager and project coordinator of the entire project when we work with our clients. Which is to say that, so when I'm working with new clients, I tell them, your only responsibility that you have, the only thing you have to do, aside from signing contracts and paying on time,

35:42and just being a nice person, aside from that stuff, is you just need to be at meetings, review stuff that's sent to you, review stuff in the meetings, and then make a decision based on the information we give you. That's it. You do not need to do anything else. That also means that of the full suite of people that you need to hire, the team of people, the six to ten different entities you need to hire, we will give you all those people. And if you want multiples to have options, we will give you multiples of each, and then you make your selection.

36:13If you want to have a conversation with us about the good, bad, and ugly about the three options, we can do that as well. So, because we have that role, which is more of an administrative role, let's say, clients would be hiring us from the very beginning before anything else. Sometimes even before they have a property selected, right? So, your first stop is us, right? Now, if, though, our services, or the services of ex-architect, is not as holistic as ours, and they're just doing architecture,

36:56you know, they're doing the site planning, the design, the permit drawing, the CD, the architecture, architecture stuff, there's a few things you can do. You always need a survey of the property. You need a zoning analysis, which can be done by the architect. More common these days for complex houses and major cities for an expediter to do it. Not all are good, but some of them are. You will need, depending on the Project of Soils report, you will need also, you know, depending if there's, like, trees and things,

37:29some of the trees might need to be inspected, so you might need an arborist involved. There's something else I'm forgetting as well that is escaping me that, well... If you had any, like, you know, permit records and title reports, and all that kind of, like, more administrative, you know, record information, it's always helpful to have. Yep. Like, if you can find the existing drawings at the CD, or you bought a house, and someone had the CAD file of the previous architect to work on it, like, that's always helpful to have all those documents ready,

38:00so whenever, whoever you hire, you can give that to them, and they have a thing to start with. Yeah, yeah, pulling information. So in the case of fire rebuilds, that's a big thing. Like, get all the information you could possibly find on the house beforehand. Or in the case of a fire rebuild, if you think there's a piece of the structure or the pool or whatever that's there that you might reuse for cost reasons or whatever, get it inspected. You can do that before the architect starts doing their architect work. Um, or, like, for larger lands, you know, like,

38:31there's one we're working on now where there's wetlands. It's like, well, someone needs to tell us exactly where the wetlands are, what type of wetlands they are, so we know how far away from them we need to be. So all the stuff I'm listing is not design stuff. Um, it's just, like, getting the information. Now, on that note, there should be basically zero design thinking by serious design thinking or proposals, ideas put forth, by anyone, until the architect is onboarded.

39:08Because the architect, because we're the ones to look at all that stuff, including you, the client, your program, your budget, your goals, you as a person, all that thing, all those things, and then weave it together into the first solution of several iterations to come. It's a bad idea to do all the stuff we talked about and then let the GC or the civil engineer or the, um, you know, the surveyor be like, oh, you should build here. Like, no, no, that's not your job. These people, while experts in their fields, they see the project through a keyhole.

39:38So, I would never really suggest taking seriously, you know, any ideas put forth by these people. And it happens to our earlier conversation. A second, it happens all the time, though, right? Or you as a client might start making determinations. But, man, the things that dictate what's a good solution versus not, a good design versus not, are so interlaced and nuanced that even if you have all this stuff, you as a client, there's a chance you're probably missing something about it. You know, and here's an example.

40:08So, survey. Oh, you need a survey. I'll go get a survey. Well, you want to, depending on what you're trying to do, you might need a survey done by a certain, uh, certain quality of surveyor who's going to give you certain information that maybe another one wouldn't. So, an easy, dumb example is like, you know, some surveyors, uh, we're on a hillside. They do, uh, a topographic survey, which is to say they, they, they have, um, they, they tell you the slope of the site. Right. Some of them do it with not enough accuracy.

40:39And so, us as an architect, we all get a survey and the client's like, I got a survey done. Yay. Here's a survey. I'm like, yeah, well, not good enough. You didn't use the right surveyor. So, I always advocate, even though all those five things that I mentioned could be done before an architect is onboarded, always talk to the architects and ideally onboard them because they have their preferred people and they're preferred for good reasons. And they can point you in the direction of what you need for your project. Yeah. I mean, a site survey could be an architectural survey.

41:11If, if you're buying an existing structure, you're going to retain or renovate. True. You know, you might need exterior elevation, roof plans. True. You know, floor plans. If you're doing just an interior scope, you might not even need to hire anyone. You could just do it with your own iPad. So, there's kind of a whole range depending on what you're trying to do. And on the interior survey thing, though, we've had that before where people are like, okay, this is the scope. This is what I'm doing. I just need a survey for that part. And then I'll have usually my first conversation with them.

41:43Let's have a chat about your goals and what you're trying to do. And then, like, you know, for the part of the conversation that's about what they want to do and what they want to get out of it, I'm like, well, the majority of this conversation was not about the scope you described. It's something very different. So, if you are seriously considering that or at all considering this, this, this, whatever it is, then no, you should not just survey the interiors. You should survey the exteriors, too, because if you change that window, we need to know what that elevation looks like for the city. So, like, that's what I'm saying is it's use us as a resource to help you determine

42:19what you need so that you don't waste time and money. Because, again, going back to the efficiency thing, right? You don't want to have the surveyor come back out to do it. Or some surveyors will do the full package. Others don't. Like, what is the mix? What is the right prescription for you and your situation? And, really, you kind of need the composer or the conductor, the architect, you need to talk to them to help you think through it. You know, we talked briefly about financing in the previous topic. That is also something that, as a client, you should get ready with before you hire the

42:54professionals. You know, like, sometimes I think clients underestimate, like, how much they're going to have to pay every month for, you know, the different consultants they have to hire and, like, how much fund they have available and make sure that that's not something that's going to slow down the timeline, you know, because it can. So, I feel like usually people are pretty good with that. Like, I think they come to the table, they have a number, hopefully they know what's in their bank account and all that stuff. But I think it's an important thing to remember is that once the project starts, you got to have

43:27those funds available because that's what's going to keep the project on track as well.

Navigating project costs and budgets

43:31For sure. And I think the total project cost is a slippery one because, you know, project costs go up and, you know, materials aren't available. You have to switch to a different material and that kind of stuff. But even before all that, you know, how many people I speak with are like, I just don't know how much it's going to cost. I hear construction costs, which are all over the map, but I have no sense of, like, the full picture and, or they start a project without knowing the full picture. They're like, I don't know. I'm like, then call us.

44:02I will happily, if you seem to be a nice person over the phone and you have a realistic budget and you're not crazy, I will happily put together a quick breakdown of, of preliminary estimated total project costs for you. And again, we do that as an office, but I think any really good architect who is as holistic and caring as we do, we have data, like we can help you out. Like, so you have at least some idea, but there's too much of this, like trying to solve all these questions using chat GPT, which is behind because it's not, you know, the latest

44:37information or Google, like don't, no, don't Google, don't Google search best structural engineer. I mean, don't do that. And like, just call us. You end up with like, I don't know, the weird ones nobody wants to hire. But, but the, the, how much it's going to cost, I think is the first question, one of the first questions that should be asked before, you know, clients hire architects, because I think, you know, like they might have talked to some family friends or GCs and whatever middle of nowhere town that was going to give them a price and they're like, okay, so we

45:09can do all that for that price. And then reality check, they talk to, you know, like, like, you know, us or someone else and they're like, oh, wow, this is like twice as much I thought it would cost. So I think that's a very first question to ask in, in any conversation is that just to make sure that whatever budget you have available is realistic for what you're looking to do. I think there is a lot of misinformation out there and there is again, a wide range of contractors and what you're trying to do and then who you're talking to that could, that

45:39the price could go from, you know, zero to like millions. So, so it's a, it's a, well, you get nothing, but you know what I mean? Like it's so honestly, it's so all over the place. It's kind of nuts. Like there's no, there's no, there's no standard that standard metrics that people go by. It's just kind of like localities and, and like real estate market and whatever people

46:10feel like charging in those areas and stuff like that. I mean, there is like a range, but it is not like a set chart everybody follows to price the stuff. So it's all over the place. And for a client, it's very hard to understand what those numbers mean before you even get like a full cost estimate breakdown. Cause it's like, you don't really know, like, is that including like door hardware, you know? Like, like what is the extent of those numbers? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's true. I mean, that's why I, I think it's the, or like even, you know, one of the big one is

46:42like the soft costs and the hard costs. Yeah. When you ask for a budget. Okay. Do people understand that there is a difference between the construction budget and then like the soft costs, like all of the total project budget. Yeah. And I think oftentimes they're kind of like, you know, one in the same in people's mind, but in reality they're not. No, no. So I think we've talked about this before. Um, I'm going to give a really, really widespread cause it varies so much depending on factors, but the soft costs of a project is typically between, let's say 15% at the, at the bare minimum

47:18to like 25, maybe even more percent of the project cost is, is the soft cost. So when someone comes to me and says, I have a, you know, $2 million to spend on a fire rebuild, I'm like, great. Is that construction or, or, or total project costs? And, um, they've been assuming it's construction and they're like, oh no, that's the total. I'm like, okay, then your construction cost is going to be significantly less than $2 million. Plus also you want to layer in things are now a new build, probably 10% of a contingency. So like what I would say is you, you might not need to officially onboard an architect

47:55from the very beginning. Um, but it's a good idea to talk to them. And frankly, it's the fairest to onboard them. If you're going to use them, uh, for administrative project coordination, you know, services like we do. And sometimes, I mean, I'm happy to get to give. And I think, you know, anyone who's, I don't know, any architect who's professional and care about what they do, like there would be a resource to people, even if they don't get the job, just to make sure that people get the right information and head into the right direction. Yeah.

48:25Like withholding that kind of like basic information. It's like, but why? Like they, I don't know, you're expecting someone to hire you before they actually understand how things work. Like that seems like a not cool thing to do. I mean, look, obviously with what we're doing and the fact that we've been doing these videos is we're very much of the mindset of, of education sharing and making, making sure people have good information so they can render a good decision. And I will gladly give that away for free because the industry is plagued with too many

48:59troublemakers and things are so expensive that I just feel it's the right thing to do. Uh, in, in my view, but it, it, there is some gatekeeping and I don't understand it. Um, I don't associate like our value. It is very valuable to put people in touch with the right folks for sure, but I'm not of the mindset where I need to gatekeep that. Cause that's so critical to my value. My value is, is that's one piece of many, many things.

49:29And if I can make sure people going in the right direction, that's a huge win for me. So when I'm talking to new clients, I tell them at the outset, I do BD. So you're not part of these calls. I tell them like, you know, I, you sound nice. Meaning to say like, I don't know if you're nice or not. You sound nice. I think I'd like to work with you. Uh, but my first and really only concern at right now at the very beginning is making sure you get the information you need. And if you get to work with us, great. It was the right fit. Hopefully if not, then it wasn't meant to be.

49:59It's totally fine because there are these giant missteps that can take place, which will wreck the entire project. No matter, no matter what else happens, right? If the first step is wrong, you'd really ruin everything else. And I'd rather have people go and build cool stuff and be happy with it and contribute good architecture to their world and make that good right step, even if it's not me. So truly like we're, we have work. I don't care if I don't get the project, make the right step and make the right decisions.

50:30Where it gets tricky though, is that, um, it is sometimes not easy for me to refer. I recommend X consultant to a client like that, because sometimes it does require more nuanced conversation again of like, what exactly are you trying to do? When are you doing? What's your budget? Why? All of these things. And then, okay, there's, you know, five different surveyors, you know, or soil or whatever it is. I will choose the two that I, that are, that makes sense for what you're trying to achieve.

51:01And it would be irresponsible of me to just choose the one I liked the most and just go, go use that person because they might not actually be the right fit. And truth be told, if you're a client and you speak to that survey or would stick on that, that example, a good survey will probably also ask you the same questions as me. It's like, what is it you're trying to do here? And whereas most clients approach us and all those other professionals and consultants more transactionally be like, I just, I just want a price. Tell me the price for the thing.

51:31They're like, no, there's like six different ways I could do this. What is it you're trying to do? I'm going to tell you how I priced that, that thing. But it does require a level of engagement thought and information that's much higher than most transactional conversations and engagements that I think we're more used to these days. And I mean, you know, some clients are more transactional like that. And some others are more interested in understanding things too. So I think, I think it really depends.

52:02But, you know, if you're going to bother making phone calls to like three or four architects to try and decide like who to hire, I think that the type of conversation you have with them is going to be most likely very reflective of the type of services you're going to get from them. You know, meaning to say like if they're short and transactional, well, you're probably not going to get that many drawings. That's my guess to make a big generalization. If you're spending like an hour and a half on the phone with one of them and you're getting into the nitty gritty details and like he or she is taking the time to explain things to you,

52:35like you could probably think that they're going to take good care of you and your project. So I think that's maybe one thing that I don't know if clients really pay much attention to those like initial calls and stuff. But beyond, you know, the formal proposal, the price tag that comes with it, like how good is their work and how much you love what they've done in the past or not. Really, what you also should care about is the customer service, like the experience that you're going to have working with these people. And those types of conversation are to me very telling on how the meetings you're going to have with them for the next year or two are going to be.

53:11That's really interesting. So again, as I mentioned, since I'm the one who does a lot of these types of calls, I'm always trying to improve how I do them for the sake of us getting more work, obviously. Oh, really? But also for the sake of people walking away with information but not feeling overwhelmed. Obviously, anyone who listens to the show, you guys know I can talk and I can go into details. Yeah. And sometimes that's really good. Now I'm just speaking just openly here.

53:42Sometimes it's very good with certain prospective clients who are of the same mindset. Other times, frankly, it's not good because they're not of that wavelength or it's too much information or whatever. So I really put an effort into trying to understand who I'm speaking with very quickly on a first phone call to then know, okay, I should go into this amount of detail or not. But due to the complexity of the work and how all the different factors inform each other, I do struggle with that.

54:17It's difficult for me because I probably ask more questions to clients on those first phone calls than they ever would have expected. And it's because I know there's, you know, I've seen that movie, It's a Wonderful Life with the 1950, 1950, 1930, whatever movie. I think we watched it together. The black and white. But I'm glad you remember that we've watched it together. Well, so the premise of the movie is that there's this, I forget the actor's name, but anyway, he has a family.

54:47He's in a bad way. And I think he contemplates like suicide. And then he's saved by an angel. And then the angel. Because he's dead. Angel. What is that? Because he's dead. Plot twist. Yeah. No. I want to rewatch that movie. Anyway, so at some point in the movie, they talk about like, his name is George, George Bailey, I think. It's like, George, you know, every time you make a decision, you offshoot to a different reality. And in this moment, you made a different decision in this alternate reality. Therefore, you didn't have kids.

55:17Oh my gosh, that's crazy. How could I not have kids? Or here, you didn't make that decision. So therefore, you had this, but not that. And what's kind of suggested in the movie is that there's, you know, thousands and thousands and thousands of ways that the life can branch off into. And that visual is sort of how I visualize a lot of where a project should go. It's just so many ways those dots can veer off into different branches. Anyway, so I think I ask a lot of questions, more so that more questions than people think.

55:52I think, you know, disseminating the information effectively is difficult. When I talk to someone and they're like, yeah, I love process. I love details. I'm like, great. I can, I can tell you everything that you need to know and not have to worry that you're going to be overwhelmed or even off put, you know, you know, buy it. But it is, I've also found, you know, all clients should speak with multiple architects.

56:23My internal struggle with this. Unless you're in love with us, you don't need to. My internal, yeah, that's, that's also, that also works just fine. But my internal struggle with it is that, you know, we're very quick to reply to people. Like we're fast. I hear that all the time from, from, from folks. Um, and so therefore I'm oftentimes like the first person they speak with. I think I'm going to change that because what happens is that I will have that call with them.

56:53I explained to them, this is how we work. This is everything that, how we do it. And I also tell them like, look, as you're speaking with other people, make sure you're comparing apples to apples. Cause our fee is reflective of all the things that we provide at a certain level. Uh, and I would say relative to that scope of work, if it's truly apples to apples, we're very, very competitive, but we're very high compared to other offices. You don't provide the level of work that we do or the free, free game quality, just the, the, the number of services. Right?

57:23So I let them know, like, look, this is the game. This is all over the place. Like you, like you mentioned, be mindful of that. And I give them a very detailed list of everything that we do from now until you're moving in. I firmly believe that what happens is when they speak to second, third, fourth architect, they ask the architect, okay, do you do X, Y, and Z phases? Architect says yes. And then the client thinks, okay, so they also do, they do what, they do what fame does.

57:53I'm like, no, that's not, that doesn't mean they do what they do. Um, so I think I'm going to intentionally be slower in, in booking calls and things because it's, it's, there's no. Well, and then there is like actually the proposals of each and making sure apples and apples are matching, which, who does that? Who has the knowledge and understanding of those types of proposal to read between the lines of actually what is included, what is not included in some instances. So. Yeah. Because the other thing too, is that, um, you know, proving very transparent, if I'm the third person they speak with, they have questions now.

58:30And I can answer those questions all day long and, and, and why it's a good idea, bad idea, why maybe, maybe this, maybe that, but when it's the very first call, they don't know anything. So it's all, it's on me to divulge all this information. And again, I think they, they, they tacitly just associate what I've said with other people, but I know for a fact, like there's a handful of offices, top, top tier offices that practice the way we do. And I'm like, I hear the names of some of the other people that they spoke with. I'm like, no, they're not doing what we do. That's ridiculous.

59:00I'm like, yeah, that's why they're half the price and you think you're getting it, but you're going to call me in five months, man. Like. And that's, that's the other, you know, classic client mistake is to, you know, maybe pick an architect and a proposal based on the number and thinking like, okay, well, I have to proposal. Well, this one is obviously too high. This one's too low. These two are close. Well, there is like, what? $30,000 worth of, you know, cost difference between the two. I'm going to go with the one that's cheaper.

59:30So I'm going to save 30 grand. The thing is, where are you saving the 30 grand from, from that proposal? Like again, stuff is not going to be included. That's what's going to happen. That's why there is a difference. Like price doesn't just jump around like that. Like things are not being provided. That's why it's cheaper. Yeah. And then you're probably better off paying your architect that extra $30,000 to make sure that all of that stuff is taken care of before construction start and save that 30 grand on, you know, the construction in like many different ways possible.

1:00:04You'll probably save more than that in the end. So it's like, I think, but again, you know, people don't have the construction cost estimate yet. So they don't know where and how much and what could be saved. They're only looking at the first number they get, which is the architect's proposal. Right. And that's how they decide. Yeah. Like, I don't know. Like there's so many ways like that price difference could come back. It could come back as change order in the project because yeah, all of that stuff was not included in the architect's drawing. Now someone has to figure it out. Now you're going to have to actually pay them that $30,000 for them to do that work that they did not include at the beginning because it needs to be done.

1:00:39Yeah. So it's like, well, it's also easy for offices to exclude stuff, to appear cheaper, to get hired, like contractors do sometimes, you know, when they exclude stuff and then just tack it on later as change orders. Yeah. It goes back to your comment about standards. And it's unfortunate there's not like an accurate way to set standards or rankings or whatever. You know, maybe with AI we'll get there, you know, in 30 years from now when we're all half robot.

1:01:10But I was, you know, to further emphasize the larger point here, I was in the Palisades the other week visiting a job site that wasn't mine. I was there to meet a GC, a very, very reputable GC. And we're meeting at the trailer. And then I said, oh, you guys, can I, you know, mind if we walk around the site and just take a look at what you guys are doing? They're like, yeah, of course, let's, you know, have a chat, some air. And so we're walking the site. That project is being designed by a well-known architect, established, been in Los Angeles for his entire career.

1:01:48Probably late 60s, you know, age and solid background, a lot of work done, like all the things you would want on paper from an architect. Right. And the engineer, same thing, like incredibly well established, one of the top engineers you would think in Los Angeles. I mean, not like top three, but they're in the top, you know, top echelon. The GC was like, and I'm not going to name names because I know them both, the architect and the engineer.

1:02:22And I trusted them both to a degree, never worked with them, but trust them just by whatever. I was talking to the GC and they're like, you know, we've, the project manager of the GC, he's like, I'm the one to coordinate the structure and figure out how the structural details work to work with the architecture. And I was like, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, what are you talking about? But X name architect, they're a good architect. They're not doing structural coordination. And he's like, no, he told me like, no, I don't do that. I'm not going to do that.

1:02:53I'm like, what? This is a person, again, if you're a client, what are the things you, what are the criteria you use to decide if you're going to hire this person or make, have them go past the first round? How many projects have you done? How old are you? You know, all that kind of stuff. It means fuck all. It doesn't mean anything. I was completely shocked. And then the GC went on a longer list of things that are going on that the architects not doing. I'm like, and how much are they charging? They're charging more than us. And they're not doing what I think is basic services in my definition.

1:03:27They're not doing the interior architecture. The engineering was vastly over engineered. The structural engineering, like there's way too much steel that was not needed in the project, costing the client tens and tens and tens of thousands of dollars more. What is this? I mean, it's crazy. You wouldn't do structural coordination before you start construction. Mental. So you start building and you find errors as you're building? This is a, this is, you know, there's a lot of fiery rebels in the Palisades that have to be done in a very tight budget. This is not one of those. This is a really nice house, very expensive house, west side of LA, ocean views, whole shebang.

1:04:02The money's there, not being courted by, except for this PM who, you know, he has, I think an architectural background, if I'm not mistaken, but you know, he gets to go to heaven. Like he's doing all this. That's not his job to do this. Yeah. He's not paying me. He's not making more money to do that either. He's burning through nights and weekends to make sure this turns out right. And so there's a moral complaint, like that's not fair, but my, you know, my point though, again, is like, if you're talking to an office or your point and they gloss over stuff, then are they going to do it?

1:04:39I would like, don't leave it up to, to, to, to, to, to luck or to an assumption. Because again, everything on paper would say that this team, high profile architect and engineer should be delivering the product correctly and during coordination, not happening. And the amount of over engineering was so mental. It's like anybody with any sense of structure would be like, you know, you don't need beams every 12 inches to support. It was crazy. And, um, so this probably actually freaks out clients listening even more.

1:05:10So they're like, well, how do I know who to trust at all? But it's, it's rampant, you know, this kind of the, this, um, this, uh, this body services. And the misrepresentation of services to tacit misrep, you know, but through tacit means. And, uh, it's just, it's not, I don't know. It's, it's not right. I mean, you know, it's, it's very clear to be like, what is the work you need to do to ensure the project goes well?

1:05:41It's these things. Obviously you have to do, it's like, it has to get done and you're not doing it, but you're the architects. It's just, it's not okay.

Customer service and architect experience

1:05:48And, um, then on the flip side too, there are those who are low ball things for the reasons you mentioned. And people are like, why are you expensive? I'm like, I, because we're not expensive. Because we're actually including the things you're going to need. Yeah. We're not hiding anything from the price that we're providing, you know? Actually, I'm gonna start telling people it's because we're not expensive, which is to say, like, you, you're just way off. Like something's so, so far off, like it's not, something's not right. Uh, you know, because the, the work that needs to happen in order for a project to take place will be the same, no matter who the team is.

1:06:21The work being done well at the right time to ensure it goes smoothly is also the same body of work. If you hire professionals who aren't doing it, then, then it's, it's going to be a mess. Um, so, so yeah, I think I'm going to try and be like the last person that they beat with. But you still don't want to be too late that they already selected someone else. Yeah. Yeah. That's the tricky thing. I was like, when should I go? Like, it's been like a few days. Is that enough time for them to speak with someone else? I don't know.

1:06:51I don't know. Um, I mean, it's good, you know, when clients do their research and, and do talk to different people and not just go with the first person. And they found the name of, um, but I think you have to be very disciplined and have some sort of like method to actually review them, you know, in a way that makes sense. And I don't know that it's always the case. No. And even, you know, with what we're saying, it, it sounds, it makes sense. It sounds good.

1:07:21But, you know, for a lot of people, they're busy. Do they got time to busy and they're not available? And then they want to move and, you know, they want to get going. So, so that's it. Yeah. I think also, this is not a question, but sort of staying on this topic for the last few minutes is, I mean, we chat about this in another recording as well, is you had mentioned customer service. And I think that's an interesting topic because it's not something, how do I put this? A lot of architects fancy themselves, the, the, the, the, the, the, the more design oriented offices, which who were more of that camp in a way.

1:07:59But a lot of those offices and architects fancy themselves more as artists. And I, I would agree with that feeling, but in a way or to a degree such that the idea of customer service is beneath them. And it's, you know, customer service sounds like you work at a grocery store or something. You're doing a menial task and you're, you're at the whim, you know, of the client, customer service kind of, customer's always right. This kind of, the shade, right? The shading of it. But customer service as an architect is so, so important because of how long these projects last, how complicated it is, how personal it is, if it's a house, how much money is that, and all these reasons.

1:08:39And architects, especially ones who, like they're creative people, but they don't have any like real practical experience. And therefore they have not built up the methods of working, their workflows, the way of coordinating, speaking and communicating that all feed into customer service quality. If you don't have that as an architect, you don't function as an architect.

1:09:13Being a good creative designer of buildings does not equal architects. You know, that, that, that, if you don't have that, then nothing else matters for sure. But if you don't have the other stuff too, you're not going to get to that point. The project won't happen. It'll, there's a, there's a high degree chance that the project literally will not happen. If you don't have what I'm going to just call customer service, you know, value that you're bringing to the table and you just have design chops, it's probably not going to happen. You're going to miss something critical.

1:09:44I mean, you know, we're always amazed, like to meet some architects that are just so awkward and socially awkward and mumbles and, and, and, and can't even do like a stupid basic conversation. Like who would be in that type of customer experience? Like probably not the majority of people, you know, like, and, and, and the, and they still get, they get hired. So, well, there's an alignment thing for sure, but you also have to think that if you, if the architect you're working or speaking with does not bring that level of professionalism with you as a client, are they able to do that with the other 12, 25 people they have to speak with and work with throughout the project?

1:10:30Probably not. No. That's why I'm saying it's not going to happen. The project's not going to happen. Um, because they, they're, they lack experience. So they, they don't know to ask certain questions or they aren't aware of certain problems because they never experienced it before. Excuse me. Excuse me. They've never experienced it before. Or again, it's, it's like, like you said, they don't even know how to like, just be professional in communication. Like you can't do a project that lasts two, three years without that. I mean, maybe someone who just kind of like mumbles and doesn't talk much, make that initial call easy.

1:11:04And people think that it's going to be an easy process. It's just three words and we're done. You know, they charge early. It's not going to be an expensive rate. Yeah. But yeah, I don't know. It's amazing. You know, yes, you could spend hours and hours and hours talking to architects, which would be great. Um, but short of that, I feel like if the people you're speaking with are able to provide clear reasons for why they're saying that, or they're able to go into more detail about it, that counts and that means something.

1:11:37Um, I also think, I'm just thinking about like ways to, to quickly vet folks. I also think that if you're speaking with an architect and it's, and they're making their pitch or they're describing their process and they don't say certain things, that also means something. And it's a, going back to my earlier point, it's a pretty big mistake for a client to assume that they do that also. Cause it seems like everyone does that.

1:12:07Um, if they're not saying it and they're not putting attention in the conversation toward that, that's for a reason. And if an architect is saying it, that means something too, for good reasons as a, as a good thing. And also maybe a bad thing, perhaps, you know, maybe it's not a right fit. I mean, you get to see it really once you get their contract because typically things are, you know, listed, but I, I mean, I would hope that most clients read their contracts to understand that. But if you also have never done a project, you don't know what the phases are supposed to be. You don't know what things are supposed to be, how it's supposed to go.

1:12:39How would you know if you need that or not need that? You know, it's like, you go to the car mechanics to get your car checked. Like, I don't know. Do I need that? Like, do I need a football oil? Do I need windshield wipers? Like I've never rains in LA. Like why would I need it? You know, like, you know, but kind of like, you know, do I need a windshield? Like there's no wind here, you know? No, but you know what I mean? Like, if you don't have, like, there needs to be, and I mean, that's kind of like what we are aiming to do with, with this podcast and all those episodes.

1:13:10Like there needs to be like a crash course, you know, for, for people who are looking to start a project to know like, wow, what, what's supposed to happen? You know, like what it should be watching for, because otherwise, like, how do you, how do you know? I know. I know. But it does take time to, to learn that. Like, in all fairness, you shouldn't have to learn that on your own. Like, it should be explicitly said to you, you know, how it should go, what you're provided, what you're not being provided. Yeah.

1:13:40And that's it. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I think also, it's a struggle sometimes too, because we focus so much on process, and I do in particular, that it can overshadow the more fun, creative design aspects of a project. And, again, that, the design part, like if that's not there, if design excellence is not there, then nothing else matters.

1:14:10But, I guess part of the reason why I focus so much on process, or I'm obsessed with it, because it just, if it's not in place, it, it, it, it mechanically does not work. No matter how good of an idea I have, or how cool the design is, it's just not going to happen without the mechanics of the project. And I think that's a big way, big reason why we focus on it. I also think, frankly, from an educational standpoint, you know, the type of architect that is the right pairing for ex-client, if we are talking just about the design that they, that architect does, you know, that is a more personal taste alignment, especially with, when it comes to houses.

1:14:54It's, you know, ranging from French chateau, to, like, modern, to, all these other words that don't mean anything, like farmhouse, or contemporary, or whatever. Like, that's a massive thing to figure out. But, regardless of the style, the process, and the things we talk about, the mechanics of the project, have to be there, regardless of the style, in order for it to work. So, it's, like, my way of helping ensure that a person ends up with the right architect is to make sure they understand the mechanics of things.

1:15:27Because the style part and the personality part will take care of itself naturally, because if I want a French chateau, I'm going to go to an architect who does French chateau. And if I like loud, bombastic people, I'm going to probably vibe with an architect who's that way. I don't need to educate someone about that. But it's all the behind-the-scenes stuff that make a huge difference that I don't think people know about. I was going to say, one of the questions you should ask potentially on the phone is, like, what kind of person are you? Like, what do you think is your best quality as a person?

1:15:58What do you think is the thing you could be improving on? You know, like, to see, like, how honest and how well they know themselves. Like, how would you, I don't know, how would you react in terms of crisis? Like, you know, like, how open are you in sharing positive or negative emotions about something? Like, you know, kind of, like, stuff that's more, I don't know, human behaviors to see if it actually is a match. Because I think sometimes you think it's going to work well with a client and then you discover that actually they're not, you know, the person you thought they were going to be.

1:16:29And it's never a good thing to discover when you're, you know, halfway through the journey.

1:16:37There is, there is a... And to see if it's even worth the conversation in my process. Because if they are the type who's, like, hyper-managing, don't trust anyone, you know, like, always, like, two-second conversation. And, like, that's not, like, how you roll, then, you know, that's not, that's not going to work. Yeah, I mean, I think that's good general advice. I think the interesting thing, too, as an architect who enjoys doing different types of designs and concepts for every project is that there's a little bit of being, like, a chameleon of sorts, right?

1:17:09Yeah. And that it's, it's, it's, it's, role-playing is not, not the right word, but if, if, and this is something I've been contemplating about more, if a client is clearly of a certain personality, the general understood rule, by the way, in terms of the psychology of people, is that everyone, for the most part, likes to be around people who are like them. So, they call it, I think, mirroring is another way to describe it. So, if, if, if a person is fast-talking and is, is, is louder, they tend to like being around people and working relationships who are that way also, usually.

1:17:48And so, I think it's interesting because that gets into, also, frankly, is it's tied into the mechanics of the project that our job is to be able to effectively communicate with whoever we're working with. The line gets drawn at asshole. Like, I'm not going to work with an asshole. But, short of that, you know, if they're this or that personality type, I don't feel that because they're quieter or louder or this or that, that should mean that I, I am less effective in working with that person.

1:18:22I think it's incumbent on me, who's interested in diversity, to find a way to correspond and communicate with that person on their terms. But, that is another, that, that's, that is another conversation. That's another conversation. That's another level to, to all of this. Cool. Well, I hope we, our listeners are still awake and didn't fall asleep during this recording. No, we have other questions. We'll save them for the next one. Give us an outro. Thank you, everybody, for listening or watching the Second Studio Podcast.

1:18:55If you like what we do, please, please, please, leave us a review, subscribe, share all of our platforms. You can find us on social media, Facebook, Instagram, Second Studio Pod. We are on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and most of the podcast platform as well. The website is secondstudiopod.com. You can find all the episodes, some transcript images of our guests that we had on the show. And then we also have the hotline, 213-222-6950. You can send a text message, leave a voicemail. But if you have questions, if you're an architect and you have questions that, you know, keep coming back from clients,

1:19:28I'd be curious to know what you hear on your side of the country or of the planet. So feel free to share. If there is any guests that you want to see on the show, please reach out as well. I was looking for good people to have a fun conversation with. And otherwise, that's it. That's a very full outro. Yeah. That's how I do it. I bet you covered everything. I did. Okay, awesome. Thanks. Talk soon. Bye.