#509 - Ludwig Godefroy, Founder of Ludwig Godefroy Architecture

Introduction of Ludwig Godefroy

0:00This is The Second Studio, hosted by the Architecture and Design Office fame. My name is David Lee, and with me is Marina Bordero-René. The two of us are architects, partners at the office, and of course, hosts of the show. Today, our guest is Ludwig Godefroy. Ludwig is, I guess, a French-Mexican architect. He's born in France, but considers himself a Mexican architect because that's where he lives. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he founded Ludwig Godefroy Architecture in the Mexico City. Yeah, and so with him, we talk about, you know, his upbringing in a very, very small town in France, and then his journey to Paris, and then working at various offices, like Ome.

0:35Learning different languages. Learning different languages, and ending up in Mexico City. The whole journey, as you guys know, he's a really fun person to speak with, has a lot of great stories and things to say. And he's probably most well known for his, quote, brutalist architecture, a lot of work in concrete, which, you know, as long-time listeners know, we have a soft spot for, certainly. And so we talk about, you know, that, brutalist architecture, poetic architecture, emotional architecture versus architecture that is not those things.

1:07It was a real pleasure. It went by super fast, and I think you guys are going to enjoy it. Sponsors. This episode is brought to you by Chaos. They make award-winning design and visualization tools, and they're really pushing the boundaries with AI. Now, AI is shaking up the architecture and design world, and Chaos is taking a responsible approach. Their tools are built to help architects, designers, and visualization specialists to work faster and explore more ideas without replacing creativity. Basically, Chaos wants AI to make your imagination stronger, not take over.

1:38So you get to design with more freedom, create stunning visuals, and stay in control of your work. If you want to see what that looks like, tap the Chaos link in our show notes. This is the second studio with myself, Marina, and our guest, Ludwig. Here we go.

Normandy childhood and early influences

1:50So I was born in a small village on the Atlantic coast in Normandy, a few kilometers above the Mont Saint-Michel. So it's the part of France you call La Manche, right in front of Jersey, actually. From the beach where I live, in my village, I can see Jersey when the weather is good. The village is called Gouville-sur-Mer, so it's a very tiny village, 1,500 inhabitants.

2:22So, and I grew up in this village until I turned 18 years old, and I moved to Paris to study architecture. So, actually, that's part of my story, that I like everything which is simple, which is related with being sort of peasant, you know, in a way, no? It's a fisherman village, and, you know, like, it's very honest around my village.

2:53The people, they are what they are, no? And who they are, and very simple, and I sort of like it, no? And then it's like probably what you would see in my architecture, some sort of vernacular aspect, no? That I'm looking to, I'm looking at this, no? What I have around me, no? And sort of reinterpret, no? Actually, it was boring, no? You know, like living in a village, you know? It's like when you're young, and at the time we did not have internet, we did not have everything.

3:26Like today, we were, like, not connected the way we are today, no? So, pathing through the Sunday in my village was really, you know, like you go to the main plaza with your friends, and go around the village with your bicycle, with the bicycle, and there is nothing to do, actually. Everything is closed on Sunday, so it was a bit depressing, and it was my life, no? It was a very slow life, actually. So, when I turned 18 years old, and I decided I wanted to study architecture, then I was looking at architecture schools in Paris, no?

4:05Because that was clear for me that I had to go to Paris, you know? Like, I did not want to remain for the rest of my life this countryside boy, you know? Like, and, you know, when you arrive to Paris, you feel a little ashamed, no? Actually, that you feel like you're a peasant, no? And I'm now, after, like, all my experience and et cetera, I'm feeling proud of it, no? But when you're 18 years old, that was not so clear, no?

4:33The reason why I decided to become an architect, actually, is very simple. And when I was 10 years old, my father died, no? And he was an architect, no? So, he's sort of an icon for me, you know? And so, obviously, that was very painful for me, and I had this idea, you know, like, in my mind somewhere. I wanted to become what my father was, no? But he was an architect in my village, so, and around my village.

5:06So, he was doing, like, very simple houses and et cetera, no? Nothing, like, spectacular, but I remember, like, being around him and grabbing those. It was still everything by hand, no? Like, nothing of computers. It was, like, in the 80s, no? And so, I was, like, playing with those rotating fences, no? And breaking them, actually. I was going to say, yeah.

5:36So, that's the reason why, no? That's my story. Did you know what kind of architecture you would want to be doing as an architect when you were that young? Or did you even know there was different styles of architecture? No, absolutely impossible, no? I was not really conscious about this, no? Even if I had my... Now, I know my father had a few books of Le Corbusier, Mario Botta, some architects that now I do understand who they are, no?

6:07But as a small kid, I did not understand really this, no? And I was not really studying architecture for what it is, no? It was more, like, about my father and the atmosphere and some sort of memories, no? And that in my mind, no? So, it became, obviously, then I had to go to Paris and I had to study architecture. And then you start discovering, like, a different aspect of it, no?

6:38Until you say, okay, that's, I think, what I like, no? Something that now I do understand and it's really, I think, important in my architecture, no? It's like, there is this mix, if you look at my architecture, between brutalist architecture and some sort of pre-Hispanic reminiscences of architecture, no? I'm mixing, like, some sort of Mexican temples with brutalist architecture. And this is a little bit like the story, probably you've read something about this, that when I was young around my village, that happened today, no?

7:16So, because of the D-Day, it was part, all the coast, the Atlantic coast was part of the Atlantic wall. And I have, like, bunkers all around Normandy, it's full of bunkers along the coast, no? So, for me, it was like, and my grandfather was taking part in the Second World War, no? So, when I was young, I remember he was bringing me to different museums and showing me, and the bunkers, and the batteries.

7:46No? And, et cetera, et cetera. And it was, for me, like, a little too much, no? Because it was really like my grandfather teaching me about this and talking to me about the Second World War and et cetera. But I was used to play in those abandoned structures, no? Concrete, like, totals, no? In the abandoned in the middle of nature. And I think then, now, I do realize, no, that all of this was really important for me, no?

8:19And it was really feeding me, no? And thanks to my grandfather, thanks to my father, no? So, I'm starting to put together and to stick together the different pieces of the puzzle that I had in my mind as a small kid, no? So, it sounds like, actually, a lot of the, what you said about the countryside is actually pretty similar to Marina. You said the population of your town was 1,500? Yes. I think that's smart. Well, my mind was, like, I don't know, 3,000 or something. So, you're double. You're double the size.

8:49Double the size. Double the size. That is a big city. I know, I know. It's like, whoa. I mean, you know. But, I mean, I resonate completely with what you're describing. I grew up in a very similar environment. I'm from Picardie. So, you know, there was no water nearby. There was nothing really pretty anywhere near, you know. The weather was okay. And it was fairly boring growing up as a teenager, I have to say. So, I was in the same mindset as you. I was like, I want to get out of here. I cannot stay in such a small place. And, you know, and look where we are now.

9:20It's pretty, you know. Did you go to the same school? No, I went to Paris Valdecin. But, I did apply to Marne-la-Vallée. I think that's where you went. Okay. Very, very good school. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I'm very curious to learn about what your experience was at this particular school in Paris. Did you apply to that one, too? I did apply. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. It's an amazing school.

Studying architecture in Paris

9:43Yeah, I see. And, actually, it was amazing because I did not know at the time and I did not know about Bernard Choumy, who he was, no? And when I applied, actually, I'm the first year when they did open the building. So, I was, I was, actually, the first group of students, no, using this building. So, it was brand new, the building. And I was entering my first year, and I was entering my first year of architecture, no?

10:15So, it was like, wow. We had, like, everything was new, everything was, we had, like, tables and computers and extra space, no? Because I remember being in La Villette, no? And applying in La Villette, it was like, everything was so packed, so old. It was like, the dark inside, etc., and we have, like, everything was glazed and we could, we had a field in the back of the building because the campus was still on the construction. So, it was, like, really still empty around the building and we could see the, like, trees and grass in front of the studio.

10:55It was beautiful. So, yeah, I was, actually, I was very lucky, to be honest with you, because I did not know, I did apply a few architecture schools in Paris. I remember La Villette at Versailles as well was part of it, no? Did you have to do the, did you have to do the competition entry at Versailles to apply? No, actually, it was in 2000, no, one year before, 1999, no? It was still very easy to enter in an architecture school.

11:29Now, they're telling me that it's pretty difficult, no? And the selection is pretty hard, no? But my time was still okay, no? So, I, like, actually, I did apply. I was not such a brilliant student in high school, no? I went to the scientific, the scientific way, you know, the S way, no? In high school. And I was not a brilliant one, and I could enter in different architecture school at the time, no?

12:07So, Versailles was part of it, La Villette, another one, was it Malachy, maybe? Malachy, yeah. In Paris, and when I saw this, so I went to visit different architecture schools, and when I saw the building of Mont-La Vallée, actually, I did not want to go, no? Because it was far from the city center, no? Yeah. So, I was like, no, no way. I don't want to commute, no? But when I saw the building, I was like, okay, so that's the one.

12:39And so, how was your experience there? Like, did you, were you surprised when you started learning architecture in school from what you've known about architecture when you were a kid? Yeah, I mean, then it was like, just like, everything was just like, perfect and beautiful. Now, I think the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the crew, no? Like, the director at the time was Yves Leont for the, for the opening of the, of the school, no? So, we had like a, a, a, a, a, a, a nice crew of, uh, famous, uh, architects from Paris, no?

13:15So, uh, for, for example, my diploma, the, I'm, I'm still the, I'm not the master in architecture. I was, I'm the last DPLG, GALG of architecture. So, actually, I did graduate in 2006, no? So, it was exactly the moment when everything was becoming master, but I decided to go the, the, the old diploma to, to make sure that I, I did not, uh, to, to make sure I could sign plans. And, uh, it was, uh, the end for me, no?

13:45So, like this, I did not go, I have to go to, back to school after, no? To, to sort of, uh, validate, uh, experience and stuff like that, no? And my diploma, uh, was, uh, with Marc Mimram, no? So, it was, uh, uh, he is, no? Still, uh, a, a pretty famous architect in Paris, no? And probably not outside France, but, uh, in Paris he is, no? And it was, like, it was the time he was, uh, uh, uh, building this, uh, Solferino, uh, bridge in front of, uh, Le Louvre, no? To cross the Rio Seine and et cetera.

14:17And so, it was very nice, no? Because, uh, I had no idea of, uh, anything, but, uh, but, but everything was, uh, well done. The, uh, the, the, the pedagogic aspect of the, of the school, no? Was, like, uh, uh, really trying to do something new and, uh, impulsing, uh, it, it, it, it was a lot of, uh, uh, because it's called, uh, Ecole de la ville et des territoires, no? It was a lot about the city and the territories and et cetera. So, we, we were, like, uh, uh, always, like, looking at, uh, urban scale and et cetera.

14:53So, it was becoming, like, way deeper than what I was expecting from architecture. And I could understand that, uh, uh, not only a building is architecture, but the way, uh, the relation with the, the, the city, probably the, the, the, the, the master plan of the city sometimes is more the architecture than the building itself and et cetera. So, they were, like, teaching us all of this and obviously, uh, all the history of architecture and et cetera, no? From, uh, antique until, uh, Le Corbusier, no?

15:24And, uh, and I remember actually something, I think it was, uh, Yves Lyon saying this, no? That, uh, when we were studying, uh, it was not, uh, letting us criticize Le Corbusier until reaching the fourth years of architecture, no? And I was, like, because, you know, like, when you're a student, you, you give your point of view and probably in a, in a very stupid way sometime, no? About everything, no? And, uh, and, and, and, and, and this comment was very interesting because then I could understand that it's like, until you get to the fourth year,

15:58it means then you do understand what you talk about, no? And probably you will never criticize Le Corbusier for the rest of your life, no? I'm not saying that you have to like it, but you do understand what he was doing. And before probably you have to study and be a little bit more humble, no? So it's again something that still resonates with me, you know? It's like it, it's easy to criticize, no? But it's way harder to do, you know? So when you do, obviously you get criticized by the others, no? But so that's the reason why, no?

16:30I don't like to criticize people because I do understand the, the effort and the, the work that someone is putting in, in, in what they're doing, even if you don't like it, you know? Yeah. That's true. That's true. It takes a lot of work to do projects. I'm actually. Even the bad ones. Even the bad, yeah, even the bad ones. Exactly. But it's like, if you can get a client and have enough money to do something remotely interesting, that's already, it's a win. It gets considered a win. And you go through many things, you know, like permits and the bad taste of your client and et cetera, et cetera.

17:05So sometimes it's not only you, you know? It's like, yeah, so, so, so, so it's a mix of, of, of, of problem that you have to pass through, no? And, and, and, and, and it's a long process. And when you think you're done with, and you could escape the first accident, then it's coming another one that, and you were not prepared, no? Yeah. It's, it's not, you can't really breathe a sigh of relief until the project is completed and it's photographed. Not until then, can you like, be sure that it's done.

17:36Up until that point, you, you never know what's going to happen. Um, and then, and, and then you have to face a bad photographer. Imagine. I know. Well, that's why we have to wait until the photographs are done and then sent to you. Then you're good. Or until it's published in some cases. Exactly, exactly. So it's, you know, five years. It's a long journey. It's a long journey. Um, so it sounds like you had a great time at architecture school. It was a five year program also? Uh, six years, actually. Oh, wow. Okay. So it was like, uh, because it was before the, the master.

18:07So it was like, uh, six years and you could, uh, get out of the school and being able to register and sign actually, uh, the day after graduating, you, you, you, you, you could open your office. Oh, wow. Interesting. Okay. Yeah. That's diff. That's quite different from the United States. Um, after you've, it depends what kind of school you go to, but here, once, if you go to an accredited school, then you are able to take, rather you're able to pass the exams as soon as you graduate.

18:37But there's like, uh, six exams and a bunch of work experience. So it usually takes. Exactly. Which is pretty much what they're doing now is the master. And also people, they have to go first to, uh, to get experience. And then they have an exam and they have to, to, to, to pass the exam. And then you can, uh, register to the, to the college of architecture or the, uh, Academy of architecture. I don't know what they call it, but, and, and then you, you, you, you, you get the rights to sign and, and, and build and being responsible for, for, for construction.

19:09And then you have this, uh, 10 year warranty on top and et cetera. So did you open your own office right after graduating or did you decide to work at other places? No, no, not at all.

Internships in New York and Barcelona

19:23No.

Internships in New York and Barcelona

19:24So it was 2006. No. So actually what I did when I studied architecture, I was studying like four years, uh, and then I decided to make a break. No, so it was like, after my fourth years of architecture, I decided to move to London because I could not speak English. So I was like a little, getting a little ashamed, no, after coming from my village and facing people later, being able to speak Spanish, to speak English. And I was like, uh, really feeling, I was not, uh, I was not on the same level.

19:55So I had this idea to move to London to, to, to study English for a year, no. And actually, uh, I was like, uh, so I went to London, no, I, uh, I, I made this break and, uh, in London was very expensive at the time. I actually was feeling like way more expensive than Paris. I, I don't think it's, uh, like this today, no, but, uh, but back in the time was, uh, London was really above Paris in, uh, in terms of, uh, expenses. So it was like, okay, so if I'm wasting this amount of money, maybe I can go to the United States, no?

20:30So I decided to go to Philadelphia. So I decided I had this opportunity to go to Philadelphia, no? So I moved to Philadelphia. It was, uh, and I could not understand a word of English. It was a disaster. So it was like, uh, I was just like, uh, doing some small competition, uh, connection, uh, I had friends in Philadelphia. So I was, uh, staying with them exactly, et cetera, no? And then after a few months, no, I was like, okay, so Philadelphia is cool, no? But, uh, I think New York is better, no?

21:01So I started to apply, uh, for an internship in New York, no? And I got this internship and, and, and still was difficult, the English for me, no? So it was the people, they were, they were helping me and I was sending my curriculum to, to, to New York, no? And I got this internship in the, uh, it was in Dumbo, uh, in the office of Thomas Leeser. So you know Thomas Leeser? Yeah. Well, uh, we both spent about seven years in New York, so we're pretty familiar with all the local scene.

21:34So actually Thomas Leeser was at the time, uh, it was, uh, uh, getting famous for competition. That, uh, was the IB Museum. Uh, uh, uh, you remember this one was a folding, like, uh, uh, blue and white, no? Those, uh, images from, uh, Dylan's coffee deal. They won the competition. And Thomas Leeser had something like pretty similar with the folding, no? It was, uh, it was the, the, the, the trend at the time, no? Everybody was doing folding, no?

22:06So I entered, uh, uh, with Thomas Leeser, it was a very small office. It was very nice. I could not speak really well English. So they were like, oh, uh, what should we do with this guy, no? So I was doing like models and I was cutting and it was getting, it was very fun, no? And, uh, and Thomas was a very friendly guy. The office was, uh, the scale was like, like very friendly. We were like, uh, I don't know, like five people in the office, no?

22:37Uh, five, six, no? Uh, really small, uh, and I was discovering New York, no? So it was, uh, actually very cool. It was, I remember doing, uh, um, a model, uh, for the three-legged dog theater that, uh, Thomas Leeser was building at the time. And, uh, and so, uh, uh, this, no? So it was, then I went back to, to, to, to Paris, no? To, to finish my, my, my studies, to go, to continue, no?

23:08And then, uh, I started to have this, I had this idea. Okay. I need to continue. I need to travel. So maybe now that I'm able to speak better English, so I should do the same with Spanish, no? So I went to, to Barcelona. And I got an internship, uh, during my fifth year, uh, of architecture, uh, with Enric Miralles and Benedetta Tagliabue. So I went to Barcelona. So it was like a bigger office, uh, with like, like pretty crazy, uh, projects, no?

23:44Uh, Enric Miralles was dead already, no? But, uh, still they were working on the Santa Catalina market in Barcelona, the, uh, gas tower with this giant cantilever, uh, et cetera, et cetera. Uh, you've seen, uh, now like the, they, they are publishing a lot, uh, the, the Napoli train station, uh, the subway station, no? In Napoli, uh, from Benedetta, uh, it was like, uh, in 2005, I was working on this project. Actually, I, I, I've been part of the team, no?

24:16And I'm talking about 2005. So it took like 20 years to complete the, the, the process, no? And I, I think the project is just like stunning, no? It's like, it's beautiful, no? And, uh, all those, uh, beams out of wood and those crazy, uh, Miralles shapes, no? So, so then that was the, the, the, the, what I was doing. And finally I went back to Paris, uh, uh, finish my, my, my final project, present and get my, my, my degree, no?

24:47My DPLG of, uh, architecture. And then after this, I was like, okay, so now I want to work for Remcolas, no? It was my idea.

24:57So I did apply at Remcolas office and, and at the beginning it was not working. And I was like, but I was, I sent only one curriculum in the world, no? It was at Remcolas office. And it was like calling them, no? Every second week, no? And sending a mail, no? Do you remember me? Do you remember me? And then after a while, I don't know, like I was sending like eight mails and calling every second week, no? They were like, okay, so come to an interview, no?

25:27So I went to Rotterdam, took my car, went to Rotterdam, uh, the interview, and I finally managed to, to get in, uh, Remcolas office. And, uh, and I remember they were like, okay, but we cannot give you the, the junior, uh, architect. So you will be an, uh, an intern at the beginning. I was like, okay, no problem. I will be an intern, no? And so I went to, to work with Remcolas, no? Which was actually, uh, at the time for me was the, the, the, my favorite architect, no? It was, uh, everything, uh, was happening was, uh, uh, CCTV tower, the Casa Musica, Oporto, Seattle

26:03Library, all those projects, no? When really Remcolas was like in a, in a, in a, like in another kind of architecture, no? Like it was a revolution now for me, like everything he was doing at the time was when they were, uh, actually they were publishing those, uh, the two croquis, no? Of, uh, Remcolas, uh, I remember El Coquis being around the office when I was in the office, no? So it was at the, at this time, no? Uh, and, and, and it was very nice, no? It was already like a big office.

26:35I think when I entered the Remcolas office, uh, we were talking about 250 people working, no? It was like, uh, like, like, like three levels, uh, of the building. Yeah. Then I think they, they went like really crazy. They, I think they went until only like, uh, almost, uh, 400, no? And then came the, the crisis, no? In 2008, 10. So I think they had to, to, to, to, to cut a little bit the amount of people, no? But, uh, already, it was a very big office, no?

27:08And it was very nice, no? Because you could look around and look at the people in the office and you could see, and you can, and you could say, uh, you're better than me. You're better than me. You're better than me. You're better than me, no? So this is, uh, what, what I need to reach, no? So you, you, you want to become one of those guys, no? And they, they, they, they set for you a very nice, uh, example, no? And so, so you sort of, uh, target on this, no? Uh, obviously, uh, it's not a surprise if I'm telling you, uh, that was really exhausting, no?

27:42So, so it was, uh, in one, I, I, I, I, one day I remember I was like, uh, calculating the amount of hour and I was like, in a week reaching 110 hours in a week. Wow. Wow. So yeah, it's madness, no? It's like, uh, you, you, you, you, you work, uh, Saturday and Sunday, uh, if you're lucky, you get either Saturday or Sunday, never both, no? Uh, but yeah, it's pretty much like your life is, uh, architecture is, uh, being in between architects.

28:17Uh, so, so yes, it, it, it, it, it's a weird way, a weird, uh, lifestyle, no? I would say, no? So after eight months, I was like, eh, I'm not so sure that's what I'm fencing for the rest of my life, you know, like, uh, staying another, uh, five to 10 years to become an associate eventually one day, you know? It's like, I'm not so sure that I, I, I, I, I want this kind of life though. So I decided to quit now after eight months.

28:47And I was like, okay, so now I did the sacrifice of pretty much everything, no? I went to different places. I was studying foreign languages. Uh, I, I did, uh, work for people that I really love and respect. Enrique Medailles, Rem Kolas, uh, I did learn a lot, no? Uh, but now what I want is a big city where I can have like a, a, a, a good, uh, private life, you know, and having friends and, uh, going out at night and, uh, partying and enjoying

29:17and, uh, getting drunk. And, uh, you know, it's like, uh, and so it's the moment when, uh, I started to look, uh, around the world, no? And I was like, okay, so, uh, 10 million inhabitants city. Uh, and, and I, and I started to, to, to, to make a list, no? It was like, uh, Tokyo, London, New York, Los Angeles, uh, uh, Buenos Aires, Mexico, uh, even Bogota. I was like only seven, but okay, that's, that's part of the list, no?

Relocating to Mexico City

29:44And, uh, until, uh, I got this opportunity with Tatiana Bilbao. And this is when, uh, uh, I moved to, to, to Mexico in 2007. Uh, I entered, uh, in, in the, in the office of Tatiana Bilbao as a project leader. So it was cool, no? For the first time I could have, uh, I could receive money for the work I was doing and leave from, from this, no? Uh, uh, and, and, and that was the beginning. So it's funny, no?

30:15Because, uh, what I'm, uh, what, what, what, what I like to say about Mexico is like, I don't have any idea why I moved to Mexico. The only thing that I know is why I never left Mexico, no? Because, uh, or I, I, I fall in love with the country, the culture, the people, the food. Uh, uh, uh, I, I, I got into the pre-Spanic architecture and I was like, wow, I can do something with this. And because it was like, uh, uh, uh, uh, the first time I, I, I, I could see a pyramid in my life when I moved to Mexico, no?

30:47And so I started to, to, to, to, to, to get into, uh, everything that, uh, that Mexico can, can give you, can offer you. And, and that's a very nice country and very generous country, no? And so that's the reason why I never left because my plan originally was okay. So I moved to Mexico. I will finish to study, uh, Spanish and then maybe I can go, uh, further sauce to Brazil. And, uh, because I, I love Brazilian, uh, tropical brutalism and then maybe Chile and

31:18Argentina and et cetera, no? So, uh, but, uh, it was like my, the, the, my, the, the, my first gate was Mexico to enter into the, the, the Latin, uh, Latin American culture. And, uh, and my plan was to, to, to, to, to move after maybe two years to another country and I'm still in Mexico, no? So, so that's, uh, that, that, that, that, that's the story. And, uh, I stayed to, to finish your, your, the, uh, to answer the, the, the question.

31:50So I stayed two years and a half with Tatiana Bilbao and in 2010, I started to work, uh, for myself, no, and with a friend, we, we, we started to work, uh, to, to, to get the, uh, our first project and new project and, and we started this way. So you took the job in Mexico without ever have been there before?

32:15Yes, yes, yes. Actually, that's, that's, that's something you have to understand with Mexico. Like everything is possible in Mexico, you know, it's like, uh, because, uh, in, in the United States, in Europe, uh, where in those Western cultures, uh, you need to pass through some exams and the license and the responsibility. But in Mexico, it's like, uh, yeah, yeah, no worry. We will manage, you know, and so everything is possible. So it was pretty crazy, you know, because I, I, I was coming from Europe, you know, where,

32:49you know, when you, uh, under 35 years old, you're, you're just a baby, you know, and maybe when you reach 40 years old, they would start to, to, to call you an architect, you know? And so, you know, you have to be patient and it takes a lot of time, no? And Mexico, I was 27 years old when I moved to Mexico. I could not speak Spanish and I became a project leader from one day to another, no? And I remember at the very beginning working on a building and, uh, the, the structural engineer could not speak English, no?

33:21And Tatiana was sending me to review the structure and I was like telling Tatiana, but you know, Tatiana, I cannot speak Spanish and you cannot speak English. That may be a problem, no? And, and she was like, no, don't worry. You will manage, you will manage, no worry. And I was like, yeah, but I mean, we're talking about structure. That's something serious. If we don't understand each other, that can be maybe a problem, no? And, and, and, and that's pretty amazing, no? Because, uh, uh, Mexico, they, they, they, they, they have young people, no?

33:54Like it's part of the, uh, of who they are, no? And so they, they trust, uh, very easily in young people, no? Obviously you have to, to, to prove that you're able, no? But, uh, but, but, but it's not like in Europe or United States that you have to pass through different, uh, steps and until you get, uh, you reach the, the senior architect. And then when you're a senior, then you can start to talk, no? Yeah. Yeah. So did the building you work on with the structural engineer, did, uh, is it still up or?

34:26No, we, we, they, they, they, they did not build this wrong, so lucky me. And then, and then what, what, what they did manage to build after I could speak Spanish. So at least I was like a little bit more aware of what was happening around me, you know? Um, from these different working experiences, what did you learn from each of the offices or in general? Well, uh, I've learned a lot, no? Definitely. It's was like, like very important for me, uh, learn, uh, this, no?

35:01How to observe now the, the, the people around you, uh, try to, at the beginning, I was like, not, uh, trying not to talk so much, just observing, uh, try, uh, sometimes trying, uh, and you know, like, uh, uh, I was this kind of guy, I wanted my design to, to, to, to remain, no? So I was like trying to push and push and push. And I was working and working until finally one day someone is telling, oh, wow. That's, that, that's interesting, no?

35:31So I was this little, a bit nerd, no? Trying to, to, to, to, to, to, to make it happen, but by observing the, the others, no? And, and, and I think first of all, what I wanted, I wanted to personally feel comfortable with the fact that I was, uh, getting better in architecture, no? Which was really my goal, no? And then after came all this part of my journey, my life is a journey, no? And, and, and obviously what I'm telling you about the bunkers and the pyramids, and, uh,

36:04I moved to this place and this place. And finally, uh, when I was ending up in Mexico, it's when I was changing my way of doing architecture,

Transitioning to tropical brutalism

36:15because until I moved to Mexico, I was like a pure product of, product, product of, uh, European culture, no? And this very, uh, cold and sleek and, uh, uh, metallic architecture, uh, mixed with, uh, uh, cold concrete, like what you could see in those, uh, modern architectures in, uh, in Europe. And people that I really love, huh? And like, uh, if we talk about, uh, Brutter, for example, no?

36:46From Paris, uh, but no, everything is glass and concrete and it's cold, no? But, uh, uh, uh, sort of like this. But then when I moved to Mexico, I started to discover tropical architecture, no? Because it's not only about that you create a box, an hermetic box. You have to work with the air flow. You have to work with nature and inside and outside, they're starting to melt, no? So there is no border. You sort of vanish the facade and, and, and, and, and, and expand, uh, the, the inside

37:18toward the outside, uh, and obviously the weight of the architecture and all this massive architecture inspired by, uh, pre-Hispanic cultures, uh, not all Mexicans are architecture doing this now, but I was getting really into this and, and my architecture is becoming, became heavier and heavier and it was like a defining sort of a style and this relationship, this bridge, no? I was creating between bunkers and pyramids. This is like something very personal, no?

37:49Because at some point I was like, oh, okay, so a bunker and pyramids, it's pretty much the same, no? Which does not make sense what I'm saying right now for, for, for, for normal, uh, Mexican people because they don't understand what's a bunker, no? But I'm like, okay, so that's a, a, a, a structure which is abandoned. The nature is trying to get back. It's right on top of it, no? It's a monolith. It's a monomateriality. Uh, so one is out of concrete. The other one is out of, uh, stone, no?

38:20And at some point, uh, the, the, the jungle will, uh, will make disappear the pyramids and the ocean will wash away the, the, the, the, the bunkers on top of the dune and they will disappear this way, no? So it started to make sense for me, no? Which is because of my, uh, personal story and my, my, my, my two countries, no? My, my, my, the country where I was born in the country where I live and, and work now. But then the result of it is like, I would say today, if you ask me, I am a Mexican architect.

38:53I'm not a French architect, no? Definitely everything I'm doing is related to a territory and this territory, no? Uh, this is what I've learned in school, no? Is Mexico, no? And, uh, my architecture is responding to a tropical weather. So, uh, if you send me back tomorrow to my village in Normandy, I would be, uh, pretty embarrassed to, to, to, to, because I don't know what to do, you know? And, uh, and there is so much rules and, uh, uh, we call, uh, OT, uh, 2020, 20, no?

39:24Secure. I don't know. But all the time, like, uh, the, the rules are becoming more and more, no? And you have to isolate and they, and the thermal bridges and et cetera, uh, in Mexico, you know, when we talk about bridge, it's above a river only. I mean, that's, that's a good point, you know, like we're, we're based in LA and we have our office in LA and, you know, California is known to have so many restrictions and codes and energy, you know, regulation and all that stuff. And every time we open, you know, an architecture magazine and we see that cool, beautiful design,

40:00well, they're in places like Mexico or like, you know, other places where they're, the code and all of those regulations are not, you know, so strong on projects and it actually gives, you know, a bit more freedom. So it sounds like you, you could design things a bit more freely in Mexico, right? Definitely. I mean, I have this feeling, you know, like I'm building like, uh, back in the time when Le Corbusier was building in France, you know, and we have like this, uh, steel frame windows and, uh, the, the dimension, you know, like the, the, the, the, the, of the, of the handcraft and the

40:34artisans, uh, in the, the, the process of building is still very strong, no? And, uh, everything is made on site and, uh, it's, uh, it's custom made, no? Basically. So say, yes, we have a lot of freedom, no? And so, and I think Mexico is passing through a very good moment of architecture with a lot of very talented architects in Mexico. I really like the, the, what I, what I see right now in Mexico in terms of architecture. And now a quick break to thank the sponsors who support their second studio.

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Working internationally on projects

42:35Yes, I'm building in Mexico. I'm trying to work in different countries, no? So I went to the Philippines, I have a project going on in the Philippines, but we are still not building, no? I have another one in Bali, I have another one in Paraguay, and in Alaska, no? Alaska? Yes.

42:56With a funny guy, with a funny guy from Los Angeles actually, no? So it's very cool, no? Because a guy and a girlfriend, they're based in Los Angeles, last time I went to visit them, so they live close to the LACMA, so actually I went to see LACMA under construction, it was before the opening, no? And the day, we started to work like three years ago, no? But it will take like

43:29ages, no? Because, and you know, like it's Alaska and everything is so expensive and complicated, and you have a very short window each year, so you cannot build a building in a year, no? So, but I was like, do you understand that I'm probably not your best option as an architect? Because I do understand what does it mean, the winter, no? But definitely, you know, I live in Mexico, I do tropical architecture, the concrete is the worst option you can imagine in Alaska, no? Because

44:05you have to isolate, no? And it was like, yeah, I know, but I want to have a brutalist cabin in Alaska, no? So, and he's a very cool guy, no? So, so, so, so we're working on this project, but still, no, it's not happening, and the one now, which is moving forward, I have one in Kyoto, no? So, I will manage to build this one, I'm very excited with this, no? Because I have a good Mexican friend living in Tokyo, it's been like more than 20 years he's living in Tokyo, and I started to

44:41enter in touch with a Japanese crew, and now we're working on a project together, no? But I mean, still, it will be, we still have a lot to do for this to happen. So again, no, it will take like years, so, but I'm trying, no? I'm trying because I would really like to see, I don't know, like another perspective, no? And it's more like for my pleasure, and because I like to understand, and to see something that I don't understand, no? When I face something that I don't understand,

45:13I'm like, okay, so how can it work, no? It's like, it's becoming like waking up curiosity for me, you know? So, and, and, and definitely something about cultures, and cultures that I cannot get, and languages that I cannot get is really something appealing for me, and it's probably a result of who I am today, because in France, they would put the sticker on top of me saying, he's the Mexican, no? When I, when I go back to, to visit my family, but in Mexico, because of my foreign accent,

45:44I'm still the French guy, you know? So I'm basically, I will never become a Mexican, and I'm not a French anymore, so I'm somewhere in between, floating, you know? And I, and, and, and I have to tell you, I sort of really enjoy it, no? I think, I think actually we're kind of very strongly aligned with you on that part. The subject of identity is, is really interesting today, with so many people moving between different places, and I think there's, there's certainly people who enjoy,

46:16and are almost like more comfortable not belonging strictly to one group. Like, I personally am that way. I don't like it when people identify, or like try to label me as being one thing, when, I'm like, well, not really though, because I'm from here, and there, and, and, and whatever else.

Concrete performance and climate realities

46:32But I had some, some very specific architect nerd questions. So when you're doing concrete buildings in, in Mexico, do you guys have to do, is the weather so, I guess, tropical or, or moderate that you don't have to do insulation on top of the concrete? Nothing. We don't have to isolate, no. Yeah, that's pretty crazy, you know? Even in Mexico City, you know, we have a very different weather in Mexico City, where more, it's a template city, no? Mexico City. But so we don't have,

47:06in Mexico City, we don't have AC, and we don't have eaters. So, none of those, no? So it's really crazy, Mexico, no? Then when you move to the, to the coast, no? The, on the Pacific coast, you need to have AC, no? It's impossible, otherwise you're not surviving. I mean, you could, no? But, uh, and what I'm trying to do all the time, I'm trying to use a lot of, uh, natural cross ventilation. Yeah. A lot of fans in the public areas, and, uh, I would say, like, uh, the dining, living,

47:37and kitchen. And when we're talking about bedrooms, no, at night, you need to cool down a little bit, otherwise you, you, you, you, you, you won't sleep well, no? So, but no, no, actually we, we, I, I would pour, like, uh, uh, I, I will talk in centimeters, no? But, uh, 15 centimeters, uh, wide, uh, thick wall, and that's it, no? Uh, basically. So, so yeah, it's, uh, and that's nice, because when you, when you talk about Puerto Escondido and the tropical area, so it's the structure,

48:09it's the finishing, it's, uh, earthquake proof, it's hurricane proof, uh, so, you know, like, you sort of combine a lot of things at the same time. So I do understand also when we talk about concrete that it's pretty, uh, pretty, uh, has a pretty bad reputation in terms of, uh, environment, no? But, uh, you have to understand that you make the check on many things at the same time with only one wall of concrete, no? Yeah. Which is pretty cool. Yeah, no, it's, it's, it probably makes people keep the buildings a little bit longer than they're made out of sticks, you know? Yeah,

48:43yeah, yeah. And also low maintenance of the building, no? Because, uh, when you work out of wood and you're in the tropical area, you know, like you have a lot of bugs, no? So they, they, you have to rebuild all the time, no? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, to your point about Alaska, I think that's one of the misconceptions, conceptions that the lay person, the average person has about concrete. They're like, we'll just do a concrete wall and it's going to work great for any weather. Cause it's like intuitively, it feels like concrete should be insulating, but it's, it's not. And so people don't realize that in a lot of places in the United States,

49:17you have to build like three walls, if you're two walls, at least if you're doing concrete. So it's not really, it's like, it's self-structural, but it's structural, but they also have to frame on the inside for MVP. And like, it just quickly becomes way more complicated than you want it to be. Like you want it to be simple and, and brutal maybe. And just like very honest, like one, like you said, monolithic, that's it. It's pure. But in some of the climates or the codes here, we have to layer in all of these things and it just feels, then it becomes like a facade. It becomes

49:50more like you're doing it just for the looks rather than like you mentioned all the, you know, half a dozen reasons. Yeah. Or you would need to have like a double shell, no? Because in between, you need to, to, to, to, to, to put some air in between, no? Like as a barrier, no? And that's what you do when you put some foams and et cetera. It's basically you, you add some air in between those materials because everything which is too massive, uh, would, would, would bring this problem, no? Even a stone, no? Like, like, like, like, like, uh, at some point, uh, start to bring the,

50:25the cold on the inside, no? So, so yeah, it's, you, you cannot be massive, no? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You have to, to have those, uh, composite materials, no? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I was wondering, you know, like we, you know, we're architects, we love architecture in, you know, many different ways it comes out. Right. And, uh, I think brutalist architecture is always one that's very fascinating to the both of us because of the, just the, the, the, the power of the form, right. And kind of like the, like the experience that it brings to, to the, the person, the person

50:58walking through those, those spaces. And I was wondering, you know, your architecture is, is a brutalist architecture made of concrete most of the time. Who are your clients? Who are the people behind wanting, you know, like brutalist homes in, I don't know, 2026 besides architects? They're the cool, they're the cool, they're the cool people.

51:21Well, uh, it's like this, no, I have more like some sort of, uh, hipster community around me, you know, because obviously you have to get introduced to this, no, uh, you talk about poetry, no, but, uh, uh, ask Donald Trump, uh, if he's seeing any poetry in the, in brutalist architecture, no, uh, you know, like in Boston, they wanted to rip down the, the city. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So, so you, you know, I mean, a lot of people, they don't understand this, no? And so still,

51:53they would create like a mobile archers and, uh, neo, uh, classic architecture, uh, thinking that it's the real architecture, no? Even if it's a fake and grotesque architecture, no? And definitely, there is a lot of poetry, poetry in the, in, in, in, in brutalist architecture, but I think it's not an obvious one, no? And it's more about when we talk about emotions, no? Uh, what do you feel? How do you

Embracing serendipity and accidents

52:23feel a space, no? So this is what you see in brutalist architecture. There is a nice and beautiful, uh, monomateriality. Most of the time we play with light, no? We can get like very, uh, sculptuals, uh, in, uh, in, uh, in the architecture, uh, adding some peanuts and playing with the, the, the fact that the, the, the, you can shape the concrete, no? And in Mexico, uh, lucky as we can still, uh, have a cost of labor, which is, uh, making it possible, no? Maybe not forever, but at least still, uh, it's possible.

52:59So we work a lot on, on site, no? And then you have, uh, a sound, no? The, the architecture has a sound, no? If you enter a church, no? For example, this is where you will understand, no? There is an eco, there is something like this, even I would say temperature, no? So that, uh, when, when we talk about the church, you will imagine cold, no? And then we can start to mix it with different aspects, no? So if I go to, to, to Japan, for example, and I would visit a zine garden, I'm like,

53:29okay, so there is an atmosphere. I'm not able to, to, to tomorrow to create a zine garden the way Japanese guy would do it because you need to learn it and have no idea about, uh, landscape, but I can understand the atmosphere and I can recreate this zine atmosphere into my tropicalized, uh, brutalist architecture. So we start to mix like, uh, like this, like, uh, Japanese, uh, traditional architecture with, uh, churches, with bunkers, with pyramids, and then we talk about poetry, I guess, no?

54:04I feel like some of the most, the most fun projects are when you get to introduce what would appear to be very different ideas or different things and then find out how they can hybridize and have conversations with each other and produce something that's, you know, hopefully sublime. I want to, you know, you made a comment earlier about, you know, a general comment I know about like European and maybe even, or Western modern architecture, a lot of times being, uh, my visualization is like kind of pristine, a lot of glass and metal and very like, um, hermetic and very,

54:40very like precise, like everything needs to be perfectly aligned and almost like, and sometimes I think almost too rational and then it feels cold or feels like almost inhuman versus I think your work, you know, obviously there's a different material, but the material side and just thinking about the form of the shapes yours has a lyrical aspect to the work, right? A column is never, is not, is not just a column and opening is not just a square opening. There's, there's little details

55:14and design and artistic moments. Um, I'm trying to think my question is actually, I, I, I, I guess like, like maybe just talk about those two differences or, or do you do, I mean, you're clearly drawn to, to the work that you do. Um, and it, do you, do you feel like architecture today and a lot of times is too, too rational and there's not enough like room for just expression and poetry and more like artistic, you know, sculpture and, and almost fun in it as well. I think I have an idea what could

55:47be the answer. No, but I think it's not the only answer probably, no, but when you, when you talk about being precise and pristine and et cetera, no, it's like probably this is what I was describing at some point. And this is from where I come from, no, like, uh, my European background and, uh, you know, like everything has to be under control and, uh, calculated and, uh, you're responsible for this. No. So obviously there is no space for accident, no, in, uh, in a Western culture, uh, United States, you would end up in front of the court, no, as same in France. No, uh, in Mexico, we're talking

56:21about the Latin culture, no? So everything is a giant accident, no? And everything is possible thanks to this, no? So once you understand that the accident in the Latin aspect of the culture is not the end of the world, like it is for us, no? Then you start to enjoy accidents, no? And then accident is becoming part of your process. And then you embrace those accidents because it's probably the the beginning of something you were not expecting or you were even not thinking of, no? So, so we have

56:53a very different, uh, relationship to this, no? And then for me, my architecture became this also because at some point, I, I, I, my very first project, I had like leather on the wall and copper and et cetera and et cetera. It was just a nightmare, no? Because nobody know how to, to, to work with all those nice, uh, elements and they don't, uh, uh, protect them during the process of building. So they would scratch them. And, uh, that was a nightmare, no? Like all Venetian, Venetian tiles in

57:26the, in the bathroom. And then you go, you say, okay, so we will cover this and, uh, and the bathtub and et cetera. And you come back, uh, two hours later and everything is like a little bit diagonal and your client is coming saying, but you know, it's not straight. Yeah, I can see it. No, what can we do? Nothing. We have to rip down everything, buy it again and do it, do it, do it again, no? So it will have an extra cost, obviously, no? And then you start to see the, the sadness, no? On the face of your client, no? And we're like, okay, so we get rid of this problem. We get rid

57:59of this problem. We get rid of this problem. And then after getting rid of all those problems, I have only bricks on the floor, uh, a little bit of wood for the doors, uh, and, and concrete, uh, for the rest of the building. So basically, uh, there is no finishing. There is no problem anymore in my architecture because my architecture became able to, to, to accept accident as part of the, of the aesthetic, no? So, so I was drinking a little bit like this. I, I love that. Um, I, I think the,

58:32the room for accidents or serendipity is both, there's a practical aspect like you described, but there's a, like a philosophical difference between those two, two mentalities. And, um, there's like, uh, I'd also describe your work as being very human. Like it, it, it, when you see it, you intuitively feel like, like a person made this physically and a person designed it. Like there's a human behind it versus some of the other architecture we're sort of describing is, is again, quite feels quite inhuman in your process though. So like describe your design process. I see there's

59:06models behind you. Are you guys, here's my other thesis I'll put forth, which is, I think that for a lot of offices and younger designers, when they work too much in complex computer programs, that also has a tendency to produce work that also feels inhuman. So I'm very curious to know about your process internally. Are you guys working in BIM from the very, uh, BIM from the very beginning in Revit, or are you loose and you're sketching by hand? Is it model making?

Physical models over digital rendering

59:36No, definitely. No, what you, you, you, you're talking about, no, you're totally right. No, I'm not using, uh, BIM, no. Uh, so everything is, uh, related with a physical model. And this is what I've learned. No, uh, when I, when I went to work with Enric Miralles, they were using a lot of models. Uh, we don't talk about Rem Kolas. No, I was basically, uh, on the styrocut, cutting the blue foam. No. And, uh, that was like, basically my work was cutting blue foam all the time. No.

1:00:07Uh, so I, I really come from this, uh, culture of physical models. What I like about physical models, it's like they, they, you, you can't mistake with a physical model because you make a model and you put your eye inside of the model and you will have the final result of the project. If you like it, it's because you like your project. If you don't like it, you have to go back to work, you know, and this is not something that you can do with now those very powerful tools. And we're

1:00:37using, uh, Lumion, uh, D5 render, uh, uh, whatever those, uh, or, and they're pretty like, uh, amazing and, uh, AI on top right now, no, that, uh, giving you like those very glossy pictures and, uh, beautiful finishing, but you're falling in love with an image. You're not falling in love of a project. No. And when you work with a physical model, we talk about the project. We're not talking about the presentation of it through a beautiful image and some crazy light effects, you know? So, so you, you, you can

1:01:14mistake a lot with those, with those images because you can fall in love with a mistake, no, which is pretty difficult with a physical model. That's a really good, really, really good take. Um, and I fully appreciate, agree with it. So the other, the models that you make, are they, um, like a lot of offices now, they do like very rough sketch models, like really, really rough. Um, are you doing rough models or do you also do more refined models? Um, and do you use 3d printers, laser cutters? Is it all by hand?

1:01:48Yes. Uh, yeah, we use three printers actually, but I really are like different stages. No. So, uh, I would never enter like a presentation model. No, we're not doing, I'm not so interested in this and the one you would cover with the, with the acrylic top, no, uh, made out of wood with all the trees and the cars and et cetera. And we're not doing, it's more like, uh, for, I think real estate, there's no, in my opinion, no, uh, as an architect, I'm not really interested. I mean, it's a beautiful piece of, uh, uh,

1:02:22craftsmanship, not for, for, for the object. No, but, uh, for, for my work, it's not really interesting. So, but, uh, then for presentation, we use 3d printers, of course, no, and like this, we can get into some really fine details and it's really precise. And, uh, and, and also something that I really like about this is like in the meanwhile, you're working on your presentation and you're doing like a 3d renders and et cetera, you already have the 3d model. No. So you can add them in the meanwhile, you can print, uh, there's no, we have like a, uh, four 3d printers in the office. And, uh,

1:02:57and so you work at the same time on something else, no, which is cool. And also we use a lot of cardboard, no, like, uh, old fashioned, uh, and, and sometimes I use also the 3d printers for volumes, no. So very quickly I can, uh, let's say I have like a, a first 3d model, like very rough, no, uh, and, uh, and very simple. And I would print something during the night and the morning after we have it on the table and we can check it. No. So, so it's also very cool. Like the 3d

1:03:29printer, because I think it's, uh, it's very fast, no, and, and can work like all night long in the meanwhile you sleep and you, and you get the result the morning after. So, so you work like the, the, the, the, your, your, your foot for the, for the, for the complete day until the end of the afternoon, you send the, the, the, the, the, the model to print, no. So, so yes, definitely we, we, we have a mix, no. And, uh, and again, no, uh, I'm not against any sort of, uh, uh, uh, modern tools, no, uh, Lumion, uh, D5 render, uh, the AI and et cetera. The only thing that I'm trying to understand

1:04:07is how to play with it, no, because I don't, uh, think you can ask for a new project from scratch, no. So you send like, you have to send some sort of inputs and then try to get back something, no. And this, and this something that you're getting back from the AI, you work on top of it and you modify it and you make it personal and you send it again, no. And they would send you back something else, no. And so maybe back and forth like this, you can create something personal through a modern tool. No, but I think that the more, the, the most important aspect of it is like,

1:04:39uh, you have to be the one controlling and giving the, the, the, the inputs, no. And what you have in your mind and all the references and all the, the, the, the, the, the, the people that you love and respect and we scan, uh, Carlos Carpon, et cetera. This is what define you would define you, no. Yeah. That's interesting. I, you know, I, it, it's all going to change in the next, like probably two to five years. Uh, the, the, the, the capabilities of AI for architecture is

1:05:09going to be, I think quite different, but I've been wondering, I've been thinking about it a lot more recently. And it's interesting because right now with AI specifically, it's all prompt based. So you have to speak to it verbally or more, more often you're typing and you're giving it instructions. But it occurred to me that like the way we communicate as architects. So like one way to think about it is that the AI agent or model is going to replace like the low level drafts, draftsman, right? That's like the idea that a lot of people are thinking. Um, but the way we

1:05:40communicate to another architect or junior architect or drafts person is it's through language, but it's also through drawing and like we move our hands around and like, there's a lot of weird, you know, not language based things that we do to communicate ideas. And I don't know how that's going to, you know, meet with AI, which is all like, tell me exactly what you want, duck, duck, duck, duck, you know, move this over two feet. And it's like, that's not really how we, we work though. We sketch, we draw, we, we use analogies, you know, it's a very dynamic, you know, conversation.

1:06:15Yeah, I know, but I think that they're, they're, they're, they're integrating those tools now also. No, I don't know if you've, you've seen this, like, uh, there is something like called, uh, it was called free peak. And I think now it's called magnificent. No, and you've sort of, uh, link references. So you, you, you would give some sort of reference of what you like. And so, and, and part of your drawings, and you, you say, apply this kind of atmosphere to the drawing, uh, or the sketch you were doing by end, and we start to, to, to mix all of this together,

1:06:50plus, uh, some part of, uh, text that you will also add and you add some sort of links and they, and they would put everything into consideration. No, I mean, this is like a sort of idea that you have to drive, uh, through different, uh, elements and, uh, either it could be a sketch, a reference picture, uh, a text and everything. So I think this is also like, uh, uh, what you do when you do architecture for me, uh, when, when I started project, no, uh, when I was younger, I wanted to

1:07:23sketch all the time, you know, because I had this, uh, this probably, probably a romantic idea that if you are an architect, uh, you have to sketch, no? Right. And I'm pretty bad at sketching, I have to say, no? So I'm like, okay. So I was a little bit frustrated, no? Because I'm not a kind of architect who was able to sketch, no? And, uh, and my sketches, uh, they're like pretty ugly actually, no? So what I do is to write, I'm writing a lot, no? So now, before I start a project, I would start to

1:07:55write, uh, feelings or something that I remember or something I would like to reach and describe some sort of, uh, atmosphere, you know? So it's a little bit where you would see when you, when you, when, I don't know, like, uh, when you read, uh, Arthur Rimbaud and, uh, and the guy who died and there's a dead soldier, you know, Le Dormeur du Val, you sort of understand that he's somewhere in the valley and it's, uh, quiet around and et cetera. And so you sort of picture it, no? And, uh, and this is

1:08:26something I'm trying to do with architecture to picture with words, my sort of, uh, feelings and emotions, no? So, and after this, probably it would take me like two weeks or three. And this is like the moment I would start to draw and to, to, to, to, to make a mix, no? Between sketch, uh, ugly sketches, uh, models and, uh, and a bit of 3D, you know?

Keeping the studio small by design

1:08:52This is super interesting. Um, for the office itself, how big is it? Like how many people do you have working with you? How many projects do you do at one time? Are you trying to grow to be 250? It is. And also are you still cutting blue foam or are you traumatized from?

1:09:10No, I, I, I, I, I actually, it's funny because, uh, something that I'm trying to do is trying not to have an office. I don't want to be the owner of an office. So it's sort of my goal now, because at some point you're like, okay, so you, you, you would fancy this idea. I'm the boss and I have like 20 people working under my responsibility, no? And this is exactly for me, my worst nightmare. You know, it's like, I don't want to enter a room full of computers with people in the back. No, I'm more like a, I would like to describe it more as a workshop. No, if I

1:09:47would be like an artist and it's about, uh, what I want to do. So my goal is not to have an office, no? So right now, like I have only two people working with me, uh, sometime we would reach five, six, but most of the time we have, we are like, I have like two or three people working with me with this idea of not having an office is like, I don't want to be the owner of an architecture office, but I want, what I want is to do architecture with, which is pretty different. No. And again, no, it's a, when, when you have like 20 people, uh, and you have to pay like, uh,

1:10:21at the end of the month, those people, you know, at some point you cannot choose, you cannot select the project you're working on. No. And so what I want is to work only on project that I really like, no? So I have to keep it small. Otherwise I would have to accept, I don't know, like an office building that I don't want to do. And it's more about, uh, uh, changing the carpet, uh, on the floor because it's a lot of square meters and according to the percentage that you would charge, you get a lot of money, but this is not your dream project. No. And in my office, I would say like, I like all the

1:10:59projects that I'm working on right now. No, that there is not like the, the, the, the, the black shape of the office. No. Yeah. Yeah. Is there a type of projects that you really want to do next that you haven't done yet? There is a lot, no, but this, I don't know, like I would like to do a church, for example, you know, because I think it's a lot about emotion, you know, like, uh, uh, not really that I'm into God, no, but about, you know, like the, the fact that people would enter space to feel

1:11:31something special, no, to feel, uh, there is something bigger than them, no. And, and this is about what you, you, you, you, you would try to, to, to, to, to, to bring with the atmosphere of the building, no, to feel, uh, they can, they can pray and they can get into themselves, no, like a sort of introspection, no. So that's something I would love to do, but I have no idea how you get some projects like this, no, uh, I would love to do an art museum, but, uh, you need

1:12:04to be a big office or you need to apply to competitions, no. Uh, and I'm not like a competition guy, no, I actually, I'm not good at competition, I guess, because it's difficult for me to, to, to, to, to keep it like, uh, clear with only like a few documents. I'm always talking too much. I'm always adding too much. Uh, even you see my architecture, like I'm, I, I cannot do just a box. I have always to add some peanuts on top of it. No, I think my personality is not good for

1:12:39this. So I think you need to, to, to, to, to, to reach this market. You need to have like, uh, something more connected with, uh, politics and governments and et cetera. No. Yeah, maybe. And then also competitions are just brutal things to do because they don't, if they, if they even pay anything at all, it's, it's still not enough to cover how much it costs to enter. I mean, and you, I know, you know, this instance, you're, you know, from France, but in Europe, they're very common and it's just, it's, it's, it's, it's rough, you know, the stories that architects have to, to apply for competition.

1:13:13And then, and your possibility to win is very small. So most of the time you have to prepare yourself to lose, no, and to lose a project for me is always like, oh, it's difficult. No, it's a grief. Heartbreaking. Yeah.

1:13:29This time went by very fast. We, I have a couple, uh, second to last question,

Architectural inspirations and architecture of emotion

1:13:34which is who is your favorite architect? It has to be, uh, alive or dead. Either or both. Well, one of each, one of each, although a lot of the architects that were famous have been passing away recently, but one of each. Well, definitely, uh, I would consider, uh, Le Corbusier as the most important for me, but Le Corbusier after the second world war, when he's entering the brutalist part of his work, even if it's not

1:14:09brutalism, because, uh, it's, it would arrive after, uh, with Peter and Alison Smithson, no? But I think the father of brutalism is Le Corbusier in Marseille after the second world war, with this idea that getting rid of the finishings, we can, uh, build with the same amount or rebuild, no? Friends with the same amount of money and extra 20% of, uh, of architecture and apartments, no? So that's the beginning of, uh, of this idea. And then, uh, with this project in Chandigarh,

1:14:42no? That, uh, is building. So I went to visit Chandigarh, no? In, uh, in India, which is like, just like, uh, crazy, no? When you are in front of those buildings and it's a giant sculpture, no? So I think that's, uh, my favorite one, no? But obviously, uh, Luis Khan is really close by around, no? And, uh, especially talking about, uh, what he did in Bangladesh, no? The, the Dakar parliament, no? Which is what I really love about this building. It's like, you don't know if it's an old medieval

1:15:15building or if it's a futuristic fortress, no? Like a Blade Runner fortress, no? So it's a mix in between, no? So I really like this, no? Have you seen that building? Have you seen that building in person? No, no, no, no. I never went to Bangladesh. I went to India, but I never went to Bangladesh. And then you said Carlo, Carlo Scarpa. And Carlo Scarpa is somewhere around, no? Yeah. And then, and then obviously there is like a thousands, uh, of architects that I'm really in love with. And, and especially if we talk about, uh, uh, brutalist architecture, we would talk about, uh,

1:15:50Brazil and Dina Bobardi and Villando Bartigas and Filgueras and et cetera, no? So we can talk a lot about, uh, about this, no? And then modern architecture, uh, I have to say, uh, our contemporary architecture, I have to say that I'm pretty amazed by, uh, Junior Ishigami. Yeah. The ways is, is mixing nature, architecture, uh, uh, doing building that you don't really

1:16:24understand, no? It's like a, like this museum in the middle of the, of the water and the water is entering the building. And, uh, I imagine a little probably tide, no? In this lake, no? So the build, the, the level is going up and down. I don't know. So I'm really like, what does it work? You know, it's like a, how can you, how can you make such a building or, or can you, uh, uh, uh, sell something like this to a client, no? Like to, to convince a client that there will be a one kilometer long

1:16:55building that would be flooded in water, no? Yeah. That's, that is the good question. That's the question. How do you get people to do this stuff? But I think, um, you have to be pretty talented to do something like this, you know? Yeah. For a talented to, to create it. And then also talented and skilled or hardworking to get it done. Um, that's, but there's a lot of really good architects, um, in Japan, uh, contemporary architects. And there's a, seems to be a certain type of sensibility or conceptual thinking that is quite, quite strong. Um, like Japan, Australia,

1:17:31there's a lot of good work, Mexico. There's a lot of good work. Yeah. Um, those are some of the top places that I've seen. All the places we're not, all the places we're not. Yeah. Um, and then our, our final question, which is kind of a tradition at this point is what is your favorite building? And what is your least favorite building?

1:17:50No, I don't, I don't want to answer. No, I don't, I, I, I, I said I don't want to criticize. No, but, uh, uh, favorite building same, no, it's absolutely for me impossible to, to, to, to, to, to, to answer because, uh, I'm looking at so many things now, but there is definitely like, uh, uh, there is a building, uh, in terms of proportion that, uh, when I, when I went into the building, I really cannot understand

1:18:23like, uh, like the scale of it is Aga Sofia in Istanbul. No. So I think when you enter like this giant, uh, uh, now a mosque, no, uh, which used to be a church, no. Uh, so there is like a, an, an atmosphere, a very, very, very crazy atmosphere in this building. No, but again, no, how can I answer this? No, because, uh, Shandiga, uh, it was also like, uh, another pretty crazy experience, no, that, uh, that, that I had, no. So, so, um, yeah, there's so many buildings I'm in love

1:19:00with, no, but, uh, but definitely like, like, like, like what would, like the key part is about like, what is the one waking up emotion? No. So I think that's, that, that, that, that's the key, you know, uh, and I think that's, uh, the difference between an architect and a real estate promoter, for example, not because we are able to, to, to, to work on the floor plan. The, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, they, they can work as good as we do on the floor plan and they can solve the bathroom and the

1:19:32walk-in closet and the bedroom and, uh, the, the, the, the core and the staircases and et cetera. What they don't do is they don't put emotion into a space, you know? So a space is something that they will sell, no? And how many, uh, dollars, uh, they can, they, they can spare if they do this and this, no? So it's more like a logic of being commercial. And I hope an architect has to bring some sort of, uh, surprise and emotions into a space, no? And so that's what I'm trying to do most of the

1:20:06time. Yeah. I love that. And it's, it's the quality of the space rather than trying to quantify it. I think, um, we were in France. No, were we? Yeah, it wasn't. No, no, no, not. Where were we over the, we were in Denmark, so I'm so confused. Um, but anyway, we're inside of this, this chapel or cathedral. It wasn't necessarily really famous, but it had to, you know, big volume dome. And when you're inside of the main space, there's this big dome ceiling. And it just occurred

1:20:36to me, like how often in normal buildings and office buildings and other places, do you have such a presence of emotion of just the space? Like the space is creating that, right? And where normally to your point, when you're in these other typical civic structures or houses, it's all in the United States, like eight foot, nine foot flat ceilings. It's all very economical. And we just don't let like, there's no poetry to the space. Like the space is not thought of as being an artistic, poetic medium to work with. It's, it's more about like, what are the numbers we can

1:21:11extract from the space? And that's how we create the built environment, you know? You know, like, for example, you, you're talking about this, no, you were talking about this giant dome. I don't know. Like I have this, uh, uh, church in my mind. I never went, no, but, uh, it's, I think Helsinki. You've seen the one which is looking like a plaza, which is like a, some sort of rocks everywhere. And there is this giant hole in between and a giant dome. And, uh, and the church is like this under the rocks, no? And, uh, it's almost looking

1:21:42like if we would be like a volcano. Interesting. Wait, do you know how to spell that? Uh, I, I don't remember the name because it's, uh, the, the, it's, it's in Helsinki. Look at the, the church, uh, uh, rock church in Helsinki. And you're like, wow, that's pretty crazy, no? And this is really a building that you will remember, no? And I think this is this, no? Uh, imagine that, uh, a building that you, it, it's been like, uh, uh, 20 years,

1:22:12you went and was far like somewhere in the middle of the wood. And, uh, and, and you still remember this building or when you were young, you know, you used to go to your uncle house somewhere, uh, lost in, in the middle of nowhere. And you could, you can still remember this building because it was like, or each time you were like, uh, arriving, you could feel an atmosphere, you could feel something, no? And probably tomorrow, if you go back, you would say, okay, so I was imagining this darker, bigger, uh, wider. I don't know. No, it was different, no?

1:22:44But it was about the, the, the moment when as a kid, you could not understand what was happening. And because it was emotions talking, no? And it's when we, we, we, we talk about, uh, uh, Le Corbusier was talking about this in French, uh, uh, l'architecture indisible, no? It's like the, the ineffable architecture, no? So it's only, it's something you don't describe with words. It's only something you, you, you, you, you can, you can feel the space and leave the, the, the, the, the moment when you enter a space, no? And it's sometimes when you

1:23:18visit a, a, a, a building that it's been like such a long time, you wanted to see this building and you know, a lot of pictures and you've seen this published in many books and you, and you were like, okay, so wasn't the layout was never like this in my mind, no? For some reason it was like the other way around was, uh, but, but you, but you don't care, you know? You don't care because on the picture you could feel an atmosphere, no? And it's again, what I'm trying to do sometimes, even the photographer, I'm like, uh, and I'm working with, uh, uh, when I'm working with, uh,

1:23:49Roy Gardiner from, uh, Australia, uh, I'm like, do whatever you want, you know? Because anyway, nobody will never understand the way I did lay out this space. Now, one day if they come, they will understand, but otherwise, uh, who cares, you know?

1:24:07Uh, Ludwig, this was amazing. Thank you so much for making the time on a Friday morning. Um, this was a lot of fun, a lot, a lot of fun. Thank you so much. Thank you very much. It was a pleasure to talk with you. Well, it's the end of the recording. If you liked the recording, then support the show by leaving review of the show on the Apple Podcast app and Spotify, YouTube, where you can find us as well. Are you trying a different voice? Uh, what else? Uh, you can find us on Instagram. Second Studio Pod is the handle. Go ahead and give us a follow on there. We have clips, reels, guest work images, quotes, announcements. And we

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1:25:12Yeah, that's it. Talk soon. Talk soon. Bye. Bye. Bye.