#508 - After Hours: Guest Critiquing and Students Rejecting AI?

Reviewing student architecture critiques

0:00This is the second studio, hosted by two architects, myself, David Lee, and Marina Bordera-Nay. This week it's the two of us in the studio. What are we talking about? I don't know. Let's talk about review again. I graduated so many years ago, I'm so tired of talking about school, but still you always manage to bring that on. After hours, you always talk about architecture, you always talk about school, and I don't, like... Are we talking about that? Talking about what? Reviews. What else do you have on your board? No, that's what I'm bringing to the table. So if you have something else, that's fine. If you don't, though, you can't complain.

0:32This is the same thing again. Nothing's happening in my life besides work, David, so... All right, reviews it is. Yeah. Sponsors. Stop juggling multiple pieces of software and struggling with design-unfriendly spreadsheets. Programma, built by designers for designers, provides an integrated suite of tools for every phase of your project, from mood boards to advanced specification tools, procurement tracking to project management. Seamlessly integrated, easily shareable, and always current, Programma reduces redundant and minimizes costly errors. Join inter-design movers and shakers by starting for free

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The exhausting reality of reviews

1:53in our show notes. So, you are invited to be a guest critic at a fifth-year review. Yeah, I was there for one day. I wanted to be there for more days because it's like a three-day thing, but I just can't, I don't have time. So, one day was the most I could, I could, it's the most that I got approved from HR. So, I was there for one day. I blame HR. If you spend less time in the bathroom during your work days, maybe HR would give you an extra day.

2:15And so, yeah, drove there and left at like, I woke up at four o'clock in the morning, didn't sleep at all the night before. I feel like that's always what you do. You always manage to overpack your schedule, make it hours that are not comfortable, don't eat enough, don't have snacks, don't drink water, don't plan. Like, it's like you like to suffer. Do you like to suffer? No, it's, I gotta get the most out, I didn't get any more time approved from HR. What do we want? What? Less bathroom breaks?

2:47Yeah, so I woke up super early, didn't sleep at all the night before, got in the car, drove for three hours, got to the place, kind of fucked up because I was like, I'm going to get in, check in the hotel, you know, I need to take a shower. You said that the night before and I'm like, you can't check in a hotel at eight in the morning. And you're like, your response was confusing, but so really funny. You're like, what do you mean? It's self-checkout, self-check-in. And I'm like, yeah, doesn't mean you can get in at eight in the morning because if the room is booked before you, people might still

3:19be in their bed. And then you're like, well, let me check. And then you're like, okay, well, I can check in at 4 p.m. I'm like, well, I told you. So, uh, I, I'm not one of the people who, like, there's some people that we know and you meet, you see, they can travel, they can travel like across the world and like show up and like go and do stuff. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. When I get to a destination, even if it's a few hours of driving, I need to like be in the hotel room, decompress, whatever, before I go out into the day, but that didn't happen. So I used this school bathroom and whatever. But anyway, yeah, no, the reviews were full days. All three, all three days are

3:54that way, I believe, but it's like nine, nine to, you know, six 30 because things run always a little bit late. And the first session, the morning runs long as always. So, you know, I had to move the car or whatever. So I had like 15 minutes to eat lunch. And so it was a full, full day. Anyone who does critiques, you know that by the end of the day, it's, it's, it's exhausting. Um, even teachers, full-time teachers who do this, like for decades, they, they're like, it's exhausting to, to do this. So the brain attention that it takes and the understanding and, and, and then making sure that

4:28what you say is meaningful and helpful to the students who are presenting. And yeah, it's, it's, it's a lot. You know, we were talking the other week on the show about stamina, um, and maybe it was during the personality index to test thing we were describing. And actually, um, you know, architects doing all-nighters and whatever is one thing, but being a critic and a teacher, uh, a critic when you have a full day, like what I described, or a teacher where you have like a six hour class and you're reviewing 18 students or in desk crits, you want to talk about in like, uh, brain power stamina. That is like a really good test of, of someone's

5:03endurance. And, you know, in, in the recording of the PI, uh, index, whatever, I was remarking that a lot of times, not a lot of times, but sometimes in conversations, in group conversations with people, we're trying to problem solve something, people will fade out. And I, and I won't, I'm not saying I'm good and coherent, but I won't fade. I won't be as tired. I think if I took those people who fade out, they could never fucking make it through half of a day of critiques. Like it is, it is tiring. Um, but it's, it, and it's because, you know,

5:37so for people listening for context, I each, uh, each student gets about 25 minutes in this case. So supposed to be like five minutes of them presenting, it's always like 12 minutes of them talking. And then the rest of the time is for feedback and conversation between the critics. Uh, you know, the panel is like five people and then the student and it's back to back to back to back, you know, and every project is different. Every student is presenting a year's worth, nine months worth of work. It's thesis. So they all have different ideas and it's just,

6:09it's, it's a lot because it requires you as a critic to sit down, be in front of the student and be just like totally open alert. And like your eyes are wide and your ears are open. Take it all in, try to understand what they're saying because they're students. So a lot of times it's not super clear. Look at the visuals, the pinups, look at the digital stuff, listen to what they're saying, formulate thoughts, critique their stuff, understand what they're saying, have something interesting to say, say it in a way where it's not going to be like totally offensive, say it in a way where it works with the other critics so they can

6:40participate, respond to what they're saying. And so you create this whole, you have to step into a whole world of a universe of thought, a year of research of thought, decipher it, do all that stuff, and then onto the next one and repeat the whole thing. And so, you know, you do that 16, 17 times at the end of the day, like by the end of it, it's, it's, it's like speed dating. Kind of, yeah. Well, the back to backness. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, um, you know, I think not that I'm a speed dating, you know, expert, but, but I think the critic, the critics, the

7:15school was smart because they, they roughly, um, pair the projects, uh, so that they're sort of related topics. You're not like having to transition from like urban scale to interiors to like space. Um, it's sort of the same, but you still do have sometimes pretty hard contrast and yeah, it, it, it, it's, uh, it's, it's a lot. And it's funny because at the end of the day, we all go out for dinner and the dinner is, you know, everyone that participated in, they're mostly teachers of the school and they're more tired than some

7:45of the critics, you know, they're just as tired as the critics. Um, but yeah, so I was there just for one day. It was, it was a lot of fun. Um, it's good. Yeah. You had to have your bachelor getaway. It's good. Um, it's good. It's a, it's a different side of the architecture brain, you know, uh, it's, it's kind of fun and, and, and I think good to exercise it. Did you feel like it was hard for you to, I don't know, step back into a more conceptual way of thinking about architecture when you were there because the fact that you're not

8:18teaching anymore and you're just kind of like on the, you know, more real side of architecture from, uh, you know, five days a week?

Conceptual frameworks and student clarity

8:27No, the, the, the, no, except for when there's a project that is really theoretical and they are, makes you feel stupid. No, it's, it's more, it's more like, and those projects rely heavily on readings and writings and stuff of other theorists and historians and architects. And they layer on this person and then that person that I read this person and that person, therefore this project and their project is really, you know, uh, grounded and not even grounded. It's like laced within

9:01the logic of these four other people who I don't know their work. Um, that becomes really difficult because you know, the, the, as a critic, you, you're setting boundaries for the critique. You're trying to create a scale, right? Um, it's not this linear, but like, okay, what is a scale of good to bad? And you, you establish a scale that scale as a critic. And when, when a project is, is done in the way that I just described, it's hard to establish that scale because all of the references for judgment are based on this like body of knowledge that

9:33I don't know. I haven't read these fucking articles and these people, these books. And so when a project is like that, and when the student does not do a good job of summarizing the key points of those readings and telling us like why it matters, then it's difficult. Or they just expect the critics to know of these things because most of the critics are academics and teachers and they've read all this stuff and they teach seminars. I'm like, I'm not, I'm not in school. I don't read this stuff. I have other, I do other things. So as a student, you have the responsibility to make sure I understand what the fuck you're

10:04talking. You can't assume that I know things that you can't assume that I read fucking, you know, Heisenberg, Plato and whatever, Levino, whatever, like, I don't know. You tell me what it is you're trying to do. So that becomes very, very difficult. But assuming the student does a decent job of preventing, presenting, it's more challenging, but I really enjoy that challenge because it's just like, it's, you're flexing a part of the brain that I haven't really had to use in school or since teaching, I should say, you know, the theoretical kind of

10:36rabbit hole. Um, and frankly, you know, these are undergrad students. So their ability to put together a logical system with these readings is not any better than, than, than obviously me or any of the critics. Yeah. Um, yeah. If it's clear and, you know, unfortunately a lot of the times too, this, even fifth year students, they make the same mistake that less, uh, you know, uh, underclassmen make, which they don't do a good job of just explaining the basics.

11:06To let the critics be oriented and everyone, any students listening, go back to our recording from like five years ago, how to do presentation. It's the fundamentals though. It reminds me of not related, but kind of related of my younger sister. Whenever she tells me a story about her friends or whatever, she's like, Oh, Bobby met with Charlie and they, you know, did this and that. And I'm like, who the fuck is Bobby and Charlie? I'm like, you can't give me their name. I have no idea what they look like, how old they are, where they're from. What do they do? Like, how do you know them? Right. You know, it's a little bit like,

11:39okay, this is going to be a one way conversation. How am I supposed to participate without me? You know, the information. No, actually it's exactly, there's no reference point. And a lot of times too, you know, they're speaking, nothing is clear. And so I'd actually told, I think one of the students this, and it's in the recording that I was referring to, like what you have to do when you're presenting professionally or as a student or anybody presenting, if it's a complex topic, you have to like lay down the basics. So everyone is oriented and they understand like where ground

12:11is. And then we don't waste our time as critics trying to solve dumb basic things. Because otherwise you're losing half of the audience in the first two minutes and they're dismissing the most important part of the conversation, which is the other half of that, you know, 10 minute session because they're still trying to resolve the first part. Yeah. Oh yeah, exactly. Exactly. Or, or they, they go off and they think you've said something, but you didn't. They've misinterpreted, which is frankly not the critics false because you're not clear. And now they, they establish a whole critique based off a false piece of information

12:45because you weren't clear about it. And they're like, oh wait, that's not the front door to your project. Oh, uh, yeah. Okay. Oh wait, your, your site is, is over there. It's a neighborhood. Then why do you have, okay. That's like completely different then. Oh wait, your project is not this one. It's the one. Yeah, no. I mean, what actually all this, it's, it's funny you say that, but when we first sit down, you know, all the students are pinned up kind of next to each other. So the first thing we say is, is that your stuff? No. Okay, good. Cause at the face of it, sometimes you can't tell whose stuff is what. And now let's give a

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13:50tap the chaos link in our show notes. So now, so you've done that, I think we, we both did it a couple of years ago now. Yeah.

Student presentations and reading notes

13:57From the last time you, you were a critic compared to this year, did you notice, I don't know, kind of some trends amongst the students this year? And I don't know, maybe the thing that they did or they didn't do during the presentation or. It's hard to say. I mean, look, this is a really small sampling, but I feel like these students were really well prepared in their presentation. Oh, that's good. And they, almost all of them, or a lot of them had like their full presentation written

14:31down, which I appreciate. However, a lot of them read directly from their note cards. And I am sympathetic because, you know, we forget, we've been practicing for, for 15 years now. So like we have a lot of experience pre doing present presentations. They have a lot less. So I'm sympathetic to some students. They get so nervous that they're like reading is a safe space. And I can a little bit understand when teachers are like, look, just read your thing. Otherwise you're going to fuck it up so bad. You're not going to get any good feedback.

15:04But by fit there, I really think you should be able to, to do most of it without relying on no card. I feel like maybe reading your, so I think it's great that they write their presentation because it makes them think about the order, what they're going to say, when they're going to say it and make sure they don't forget to say the things that, you know, they should. Right. So I think that's good reading. I think unless you're like English is not your first language and your accent is really bad or your vocabulary is really bad or you're extremely shy or something. And that's kind of like your safety blanket. Maybe that's

15:36okay, but you shouldn't be reading. Like do bullet points, flashcards with bullet points, hit the points, like try and like engage with the others. Otherwise you're just facing down reading. You're not looking at who you're talking to. Right. And also how many students who read their stuff are exciting readers to listen to? No, no, no, none. So that becomes a problem like more practically toward the end of the day when the critics are tired, especially the one who drove. And I was relying on a coffee for the afternoon and they ran out of coffee. I was

16:08like, fuck, I fucked up. Should I brought my own coffee? But so it becomes a problem practically at the end of the day when you're in the back half and you're reading, it's like, forget about it. Like we are, the brains of the critics are fried, you know? So, um, and, and, and yeah, so the reading thing is difficult. It's, it's difficult. I also think that a good argument for not reading is that the decision to read instead of just speak is I think sometimes, um, made in part because like,

16:44okay, therefore I'm going to be able to say all the stuff I want to say, but truthfully, the amount of words student used to present a project, 75% of them don't need to be said. It's like, you're saying too much. You're using too many long words. You're using too many complex words, too many complex sentences. Don't do that. Just like, tell me, tell me like what it is you saw as an issue. Where did the research come from? Like you have to reference your research. Tell me what you try to do. I think also it takes away from the, um, from the performance

17:19of the presentation. Yeah. Because if you're reading and you're static, holding your paper, looking down, you're not, again, making eye contact. You're not pointing at things on the wall to refer to what you're saying. Right. So people are listening to you, but they're confused by the words you're employing because it's like those complex sentences and why not? And then they're looking on the board, searching for the stuff you're describing because they're not familiar with the board. I just saw them two seconds ago. So it seems like maybe practice reading the presentation at home, like the day before or something, just so you have your stuff in your head, but actually don't do it the day off because you're missing all of those interactions.

17:53There's also a danger. I think when you have the text that you've worked on so much, the text gets overworked. It also becomes a dishonest presentation because the text builds up, it builds a shield around you and allows you to present a version of yourself or a version of the project that is probably not real. Now, I fully get and I understand that there are times when you have a project that for you as the creator of the project, it's so new. For the critics, it's not

18:26new information, but for the you, it's new that you're like barely, you've done it, but you barely have a grasp of it. So you can't speak about it. You have to have some things written and done. I get that. But I still also think sometimes it becomes this like shield and it becomes difficult as a critic because we want to help the student more than anything else. And it's like, yeah, but I'm hearing you say things, but I don't actually know if you understand what you're saying and if you understand what you're trying to do or if what you're saying is what you actually tried to do. And then a lot of the session becomes about like trying to peel back these layers that didn't

Student pushback against artificial intelligence

19:01need to be there. So, so yeah, I thought going into the reviews, I was going to see work that was like 60% AI. Oh yeah. Or that the majority of the students would be either using AI heavily or talking about AI or whatever. The school imposed a rule, which is if you use AI in any capacity, you have to, on the honor system, puts a text saying that this was done in whatever capacity

19:33by AI, like enhanced by, generated by, like whatever. And of course, not all students do that, but of like the 17, whatever projects I saw, guess how many had an AI component to the work? Three. Only one had some AI enhanced images. Now they're online? They had no AI enhanced images, but they, there was, it was about data centers, which is not really about AI. It's more about like the broad topic of stuff, but no AI was not a thing. And so I was, I was super fascinated by this because in the profession, it's all we talk about. It's

20:08all everyone else is talking about. So I asked a bunch of the teachers, I asked a couple of students, I'm like, what's the deal? And the teachers were like, no, the students are the ones that are rejecting it. Oh, interesting. Yeah. They're rejecting it. I'm like, really? I thought it would be the opposite. And so then I asked a student, it's just one student, but I asked a student, I said, you know, I hear this, like, why, why is that the case? And they answered for themselves, but I think it was a reflection of the larger student body, which is that they don't like it. There's a few things. One, they feel it's dishonest. Two, they want to learn and they want to do

20:41it themselves. Three, the joy of the work is doing it. And they don't want to be using AI because it's for them. It's like, that's not why I'm here. I'm not here to, to, to copy someone else's work, to hit a button and write some stuff and have some things. I'm here to produce the work. And then, which I thought was a really important thing that we need to keep in mind is like, what are we here for? You know, um, they're not interested in shortcuts. I'm not here for a shortcut. I'm here to produce work, to learn how to do it. I want to do it. And if I fail in front of the critics, it's on me. Um, and then fourthly, this is also really

21:17important is that within the students and I think the broader population of like middle class or whatever, there is a strong pushback against AI because we know that AI is a, what is the word? It is a, a product. It is a, a, a thing that is being created by the, the authoritarians of our, of our time. Elon Musk, big tech, Sam Altman, fucking the current administration, all these people who have massive amounts of wealth, massive amounts

21:52of power, trading things behind the scenes, whatever are imposed. It feels like they're imposing AI and they're saying it's great. And everyone at the bottom is like, Hey, fuck you guys. We don't like any of you for a lot of reasons. And AI is another one of your things. I don't want it. And, uh, I had learned that actually the, um, I'm not, again, I'm not, I'm not a teacher. I'm going to make this up, but there's something about the, the, the California school system, whatever, purchase some like tens and tens of millions of dollars of like chat GPT, like licenses for students.

22:24And there's some trade with the video also. Like this is the kind of thing I'm talking about, right? A top down decision. And that decision was made by whoever at the top. To try and infiltrate everywhere. None of the teachers, none of the two students like really were privy to this. And they're like, no, I don't like, why, why, what is this? And I think it's really telling that the students, the students who this is all about, they're like, no, no, I'm good. I'm going to do my own project on my own, on my own terms. I thought that was pretty, pretty fascinating.

22:54Yeah. I'm very surprised. I happily surprised to hear that. That's I know. I was like, I thought I was going to come here and like hire some people for AI talent. I guess that's not going to happen. Meanwhile, you have schools that are heavily embracing it, but I think, you know, not being the first to the dance is a good thing in a lot of ways. Well, I think it's interesting. I think it also depends, you know, what's the mojo of the school and the students. Like, are they interested in like crafting things? Yeah. Are they interested in just being like super productive and quick turnarounds? Like, I mean,

23:26as we know in the profession itself, right, there's different types of architecture, different types of architecture and different ways to go about it. So it's good to see that it, the AI approach is not maybe going to become like the one way to approach architecture in school. Yeah. And, and I just, you know, I say all that, but I'm sitting there, I'm looking at some of these renderings. I'm like, you guys could have fucking run this through like in each AI program just to make it more legible. But I, the spirit of the students is like,

23:58I'm just not, they're not interested. They're like, no, I'd rather just do it. And they probably will in five years or whatever, you know, but if they don't feel like they're next year when they graduate, this year when they graduate. Um, I thought that was fascinating in terms of trends and whatnot. I mean, again, they were organized by, uh, the projects were organized by sort of theme. So like, because of my background, I saw a lot of urban scale things. Um, and then I saw things that were more like a climate response, but with a specific kind of angle to climate response. Um, and I, I've seen

24:28this over the years that it's more and more the case that students are more and more concerned with social issues, climate issues, like real issues. And it's always a challenge to how, how do you look at those problems and how does that translate and inform an architecture? Like how do you produce an architectural design logic from that? Well, and how do you retain those interests once you graduate and start working for a

Pushing ideas further in practice

24:50firm who might or might not, you know, be thinking about those things? Agreed. But I, I think, I was actually, I think it's still, you know, keeps you, you, like your own interests would shape however way you approach the things that you're going to be working on, no matter what office you're in. But, but, so this is an interesting question because the one answer, which is kind of a, a, a position, one position to take is to say, well, no, like most offices aren't going to care. So what is the point of this? Right. And that logic, the idea is the school is meant to prepare students for the workforce.

25:23But I firmly believe that by the time you're a fifth year student, the five years is long enough. You should have a studio where you can explore larger ideas that are, that you're interested in that are hopefully world changing ideas. And it's, it's worthwhile. Even if 90% of the students or more don't get to do that kind of work. It, it, trust me, that being put out there into the world in some capacity or, and especially that one, that, that 10, 10% to go and do it, that, that's the only way we have changes, change that take place. So we have, we, we, it's worthwhile to do. And I appreciate the students for, you know, wanting to, to engage

25:57in those types of conversations and, and doing what they can. But it is not easy to take those more elusive and, and complex and large scale topics and then translate it into architecture. But that is, that is your job as an architect. Um, and, uh, yeah, yeah. Um, I had this, this, the, the, the, the thought when I was there though, that like, you might've found it, found it interesting if you had come where you've been utterly bored out of your mind because

26:31a lot of the, the feedback, like, well, I probably wouldn't have been put on the same topic as you. So maybe, I don't know what, I don't know. What would your topic be? French, French, French, French stuff? Butter. Butter. Um, yeah. I mean, you know, every student is unique and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But you know, at the end of the day, there's, it's kind of like the same, the same, the feedback that needs, that needs to be given is the same feedback. I mean, I remember from two years ago, I think at the end of the day, my feedbacks were kind of like repeating themselves. Because what they need to hear is kind of like the

27:01same thing that most students need to hear. A lot of the things I remember from last time was like, you, you needed to push further. And it's hard, it's easy to say, but I feel like, and it's hard also because fifth year, like you have so many questions, you're trying to find like, what is the main question you're trying to answer? And like, all that, and all that takes time. Right. And then you're like approaching the end of the semester and you're graduating and you have to like, come up with a formal proposal and get all the beautiful deliverables ready for your pinup and all that stuff. But I always feel, and it, so the

27:36finding the initial hook takes time, but I always feel like, like, oh, if you had pushed it further, like it would have been, you would have, you know, reached it a little bit better. And, and, and sometimes it's like, maybe because the project looks super interesting and I just wish I could have seen in the next iteration of it. Sometimes I feel like the students are just somewhat satisfied with this, the first thing that they found and just kind of like stop there.

28:07Well, this is, um, And it, and, and it's, again, it's tough, but I think you could also not focus too much on making all the deliverables perfect and maybe push it a little bit more in the research and, uh, you know, the, the subject. This is the, uh, well, first of all, uh, it's tough because these are end of year reviews and they're about to graduate. So like the feedback also has to be, you know, tempered or framed in a way so that we recognize that because they're not, you know, there's a lot

28:40of actually, here's what you should do next day, you know, during the summer to finish the work to, to push it further. But also, um, to your point, that's one of the biggest differences between how actual architecture happens versus student architecture, student architecture and students, they do the first version and they pen it up. You're like, yeah, I did this. And you're like, no, no, no, no, no, no. Yeah. Yeah. And that's, and you know, when I, when I give that feedback, that's what I'm thinking. I'm thinking, I'm not asking you to finish your project over the summer and do like, you know, three more rounds of this. Oh, I am. But well, I mean, they might, if they feel like, oh, maybe I should, but it's more like,

29:14you know, once you're going to start working on, on real stuff, like don't get content with just the first one, explore the third, fourth, fifth one and see what you find then. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think students would be amazed by the amount of work that's produced in offices in, in, in, in a great amount of completion and you fucking shred the thing, you do it again because you're, you're asked to, cause you realize it wasn't good or because the client decides or because of whatever, like there's all these reasons, sometimes internal reasons and you just redo, redo, redo, redo. And, um, it sounds exhausting, but

29:50that is the way it works. And when you get used to it, you're like, this is the only way to work because iteration, man, like iteration to, to that degree, not like I do some crappy sketch and I do a final drawing and then I'm done. That's not a few crappy sketches. And then the final, but that's not iteration. Iteration is you do the pinup and then you redo the pinup and then you redo the pinup. And, and that's a, if I ever get to get to, if I ever want to teach again, um, uh, I would have a studio where you do that. Like you, you got to learn how to go through that, that exercise, like do the laps, do the lap and can redo it

30:21and redo it and redo it. Um, but yeah, it was cool. It was fun. I would definitely go back and do some more, hopefully more, more the next time. Maybe they won't invite you next time. It's likely. Maybe, uh, maybe they're like, yeah, uh, no one. Although I did get up to one of the other critics who was a, a, a, a director at a school and was like, Hey, I know your school. If you ever needed critics, let me know. I'm like, okay, email me. You're volunteering the time you do not have. Well, did you talk about it? Did you talk to HR? Well, I have to go to HR and say, well, I've already committed.

30:54You need to start wearing diapers. No more pee break at all. Yeah. All right. Give us an outro. Well, that's it for that one. Short, brief, concise, kind of. Sweet. Um, we can talk more about it another time if you want. And I know you want to talk about it. Uh, this is the second studio, uh, hosted by, what am I saying? That's the intro. Thanks everyone for listening. This is our podcast. Beginner. Secondstudiopod.com. Secondstudio, uh, pod is our handle on Instagram. Text the hotline 213-222-6950. Um, and actually what we should do, and we're starting now cause fucking why

31:28not? If you're a student or not a student, you have a project you want us to review that's yours, send it to us and we'll critique it on the show and we'll be, we'll be nice. Um, that's it for now. Thanks for listening. Talk soon. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.