#476 - Tim Hay, Co-Founder of Fearon Hay

Welcome to The Second Studio

0:00This is The Second Studio, hosted by the Architecture and Design Office fame. My name is David Lee, and with me is Marina Bourd-Daronnet. The two of us are architects, partners at the office, and of course, hosts of the show. And today, our guest is Tim Hay. Tim is the co-founder of Farenhay, which is an architecture office based in Auckland, New Zealand. Yeah, I think this is like the second New Zealand guest we've had within a few months. I don't know what it is. Sometimes the bug of various countries bites us. With Tim, we discussed many things, including the business of architecture, Farenhay's studio, working locally, internationally, client relationships, working on different project types, and a lot more.

0:36And I think this was a very introspective type of recording and conversation, and we hope you enjoy it. Sponsors. Stop juggling multiple pieces of software and struggling with design-unfriendly spreadsheets. Programma, built by designers for designers, provides an integrated suite of tools for every phase of your project, from mood boards to advanced specification tools, procurement tracking to project management. Seamlessly integrated, easily shareable, and always current, Programma reduces redundancy and minimizes costly errors. Join InterDesign Movers and Shakers by starting for free at Programma.design.secondstudio.

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1:40So you get to design with more freedom, create stunning visuals, and stay in control of your work. If you want to see what that looks like, tap the Chaos link in our show notes. This is The Second Studio with myself, Marina, and our guest, Tim Hay.

The Brutal Reality of Publication

1:50Here we go. And magazines are really kind of brutal and difficult to get into these days. It's becoming very, they're becoming very selective. And there's, and also there's a lot of good work. Yes. An abundance of good, in the residential space especially. Yeah, but it misses the conversation sometimes as well. It's so edited and, you know, it is about the image and the, and how they sort of choose imagery based on their sort of, their direction. So as, as actually the author of the architecture, you have very little say in how it's represented. It's kind of like, you're sort of very far down the sort of order in terms of having a say in how it sort of comes out.

2:30Yeah. Well, let's, we typically start with where you're from, but let's just continue this part of the conversation for a bit because I think it's interesting. So, um, I mean, I, I think you're right and the publication process takes such a long time. And then, you know, you're only limited to a handful of images, which I feel like for you guys who do incredible work and some of the projects you have are, are larger scale. It must be really difficult to like select the three or whatever number it is for publication and then find the words to express all of the, I'm sure, you know, robust ideas in a project to, and then boil it down to, to whatever.

3:07Yeah, no, and it is, you know, I think, um, you know, the designs that are recorded and photographed, uh, results of years of work, years of collaboration with client and, and, and, you know, other, other fantastic sort of contributors and from contractors and things like that. So it all comes together and then, um, that energy and, and blood, sweat, and tears sometimes ends up as sort of three still images in a magazine. And that, and that summary is, I mean, it can be very powerful. I mean, it can be, you know, it can be succinct and it captures the spirit of the design.

3:41Um, but some, but there's always, when we look at the, the, the summary, we think, oh, that it didn't show this or it didn't understand this or it didn't sort of try to communicate this. And, and, and maybe it's just silly to think that, that photography can ever do that. But, um, but then, you know, and we were just discussing the different mediums for communication of architecture and ideas. It shouldn't just be photography and, and, and conversation so critical. It's, um, the thinking behind what, what was achieved that not just what it looks like, but how does it perform?

4:17How do people live in it? Has the, has the, the prototype that you've built for your clients fulfilled their, their aspirations for a lifestyle that you imagine together? And, and, and, and, and, and you've constructed and, and, and, and, and brought together because I think the, the buildings are these stories that start in conversation and, and they're developed. And, and, and, and I think sometimes we talk about the sort of comparison to the film industry and, you know, and, and, and the sort of idea that there's this screenplay that you sort of start to develop in your conversations with your clients.

4:57And, and, and, and, and as you, as you define that and you, and you talk about, you know, isn't that a fantastic capture of, you know, where we're heading and then you develop thinking. And, but if you, if you capture the essence of what you're trying to create, you always know, as you sort of find parts or participants along the way, whether they're amplifying it or, or, or reducing its, its, its theme. And, and I've completely gone off script, but we were talking about photography and, and, and, and, and, and, and how to capture our buildings.

5:34And more often also we're starting to share through sometimes publication or just through social media, the sketching, the, you know, the prototyping, the thinking that is on the table as we're conceiving these buildings. And, and, and I think that that's really interesting. And, and I find it interesting when I see or look at posts of other designers, when they share the, the steps between, you know, starting a project and, and, and completing it and, and, and see how they are creating.

6:18Visibility to the creation process is fascinating. Yeah.

6:22Yeah. Sometimes that stuff is more interesting than the polished piece that gets put out. That's just a couple of pages. And what we should do on here is actually, we, I don't know if architects would be interested, but have offices and do like a project presentation session. That'd be a lot of, that'd be a lot of fun. That would be cool. And give someone like a full hour and a half to just talk about one project.

The Chaos of Creative Workspaces

6:42I think that that would be fascinating because I think the, we try to do it internally and it's part of the architectural sort of education process. The idea of critting, pinning up ideas, sharing the thinking and, and, and, and, and, and discussing and analyzing the thinking, not just, you know, running to the output. And I think the studio we're in, we, we, we try and do that as much as possible. There's, there's huge visibility of work in progress and in a digital world where, you know, information really is stalled and file trees and, and, and servers and it disappears.

7:15We have a very manual display of thinking, we, we, we, we, we use tape and, um, printed images and 3D printed models. And, and if you walk into our office, like I had just an hour or so ago, it's chaotic. It's, it's filled with ideas and process, but it is, it is an amazing way. To come into the office and, and, and, and capture the, the, the, the energy of yesterday visually and, and see all the, all the thoughts or the, some of them are scribbles, some of them might be referenced, some of them might be materials.

8:01And I look at offices and, and, and some of them are absolutely beautiful and they're sort of, um, I think I saw years ago the, Norman Foster's office and it was beautiful. I was, you know, back when everyone was working and I don't know how they did with the software that we use, they were working on Macs and it was like, everything was white. The desks were white and there were this rows of beautiful iMacs and nothing, no, there was no paper. Everyone was digitally engaged. And I just, and I just, and as beautiful as it is, the visibility of their thinking and their creation was, it was not there.

8:42There was no, there was no signs unless you went over and looked over someone's shoulder on a screen and sort of leaned in. And you couldn't see the creative process and that is so counter to our, our office. Obviously we, we work digitally and everyone has screens, but the sharing of information and the pinning up of ideas and, and the sketching and, and the, the sessions that we have around table, that information, um, when we're in the design process can't be invisible.

9:14It has to be there. You have, and you have moments where you're sort of being highly creative and, and, and, and there's lots of drawings and lots of paper. And then you come back in the next day and, and you don't have to search for that thinking. It's, it's there, it's visible. It's, it's, it's definitely a little bit tidier than the night before, but it, but it's, it's captured and it's pinned up. And I, and I think that, and then there's, then, then, then it kicks your day off. You're like, Oh, that's right. We were thinking that that that's where we were.

9:44Or, um, the other thing that I love that we're doing more and more is we, we, and we had a time where we stopped doing it with 3d printing again. And we're, we're producing these small models. Sometimes, you know, when we're in the early phases of a building in the landscape, you know, the, the building is very elemental. It doesn't try and do too much, but it talks to its position and land and landscape. And then we have other models where we're much more developed and we're looking at facades and, you know, how the, the detail of the facade might sort of hang off the building.

10:16So, but there's, there's such visual tools and, and, and I find when they're placed and they're sitting in the peripheral, in my peripheral vision, they might not be what we're working on together at that time, but the visibility of them means that those moments where your, your, your mind wanders or your eyes wander, you, you capture a glimpse of them and you look at it and you pick it up and you rotate it and you think about it and you put it down. I mean, there are the, you participate in a process of design that I don't think happens in the three-dimensional digital modeling world.

10:56Or, or, or, or if it does, it happens in a window that is so, you make such a conscious decision to click that, that file open and, and, and move into a position where you, you know, you have a, a frame to look at something, which is, you know, and that's what screens are. They're these portals that take you into spaces, but they're such small portals. And, and, and, and, and, and the, and the visibility of the production and work and, and, and, and it was incredible because there was a sense of visible creation.

11:43Sorry. I don't know if that was a question, but that's where we went. I don't know either, but I loved it. That was fantastic. Yeah. The visibility of the, the production and creativity, it's a great way to put it. And I think it's true. It's sort of, you know, as you were talking, you know, when COVID happened, everyone was working remotely. And there's the, the impact and what it was like to, to work remotely from the creative standpoint, like you mentioned, but there was also a discussion of more like office culture as a topic. And you need those serendipitous moments to just kind of pass by someone for social reasons or for office culture reasons.

12:18And, but I think what you're saying is almost the same exact, it's the same kind of relationship you have with a physical model or a drawing instead of it being a person for social reasons. It's now just a model or drawing for, let's say creative reasons. And it all, even if it's, even if it's in like the periphery, I, I, I buy into what you're saying. Like if it was in the periphery, it has some kind of impact on you. And if you can glance at it real quick during your, your break or during when you're thinking about something else, it helps, keeps things loose. I think also, I think also practically it helps you remember what the heck you've done because it's, it's easy to forget in the computer.

12:53You just iterate and iterate and then you lose track of up and down, left and right, before and after.

Physical Models and Gravity

12:58Yeah, you're right.

Physical Models and Gravity

12:59And because it's so fast and you can copy paste, you know, and, and do that, the commitment to freezing yourself for a moment, 3D printing is a really good way to do that, that you actually make a commitment. I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to execute that and we're going to look at that as an object and we're going to understand it. We had a fantastic presentation yesterday and we presented a design that, I was a little bit nervous because it, it, it, it, it was a design that has a silhouette or a form and an incredible landscape that is unlike anything that we've done before or, or, or would be familiar in this landscape.

13:48So it was, it was, it was, it was a little bit, there was, there was some bold thinking and, and we presented this design and it was, it was fantastic. We, we had such a great response, but we were talking about the, the, the roof and the roof has a sense of levitation and, and support, um, being unsupported almost. And, and, and, and the client was, we were talking about how to, you know, beyond the vision, how to achieve this. And they were sort of saying, you know, you see so many renditions of buildings digitally where they, you know, they're defying gravity and doing all sorts of, um, extraordinary things.

14:28And then, you know, then the challenge is to build it and engineer it and achieve it. And then there's so many clever people that can make things that appear to have a different relationship to gravity to the one that I know. And you go, well, that's clever. But I thought, well, what we were discussing was actually the way that we presented the, the, the scheme was, was a 3D model. And, and, and the model, because it was a physical object, had to obey gravity. It, it couldn't lie.

15:00It was, it was on the table. And, and, and, and this, this, this roof, which, you know, from some, some viewing angles looks like it was impossibly supported, actually needed to be supported or the, or the presentation would have been a flop. So we, in our modeling actually developed the thinking behind how could we support this roof, you know, what, where could structure sit in a way that, um, it was, and, you know, didn't take away from the, the drama of this, this, this, this element.

15:32And we, so we developed in our conceptual thinking quite a strong structural strategy, you know, that was sort of woven into the architecture and, and the support, support of the roof was actually integrated in a way that wasn't highly visible. Unless you'd sort of made some time to look at it, oh, that's how it's been supported. But the fact that it was a physical model meant we had moved from the digital world where you, where gravity doesn't exist and you can make anything float and fly. And, and, and we'd committed to building a little model and, and in our process, I think we built three or four models and we printed them and we, but they had to have a foundation that, that considered how would it be built?

16:15How would structure be in balance with the sort of, the, you know, the, the, the tension of suspension and things like that. So it was, and, and it was, it was a really good conversation because I think the process of being an architect and creating something that will be built needs to think about building something physical very early on. And, and, and, and making a model and printing a model is physical and it has to obey gravity. It has to, it has to, you know, conform to, you know, a, a, a physical realm.

16:53And, and, and, and, and so that was, yeah, just the, and, and I thought about it, you know, since the meeting, but, and, and, and it relates to a number of topics in, in, in, in, in the, in the discussion that we might have today about the design process, the education of designers, you know, and, and how people are taught and, and what, and processes that they experience and are made aware of. But, and, and I think the, you know, the, the tools that are available to us are so vast now compared to, you know, you know, I, my, I did my education and, you know, we were one of the first generations to really, I think, be exposed to CAD, but we still had drawing boards.

17:39And, and, um, um, the, the, the, the, the tools are incredible now, you know, people can pick up tools and, and, and simulate and, and with AI appended to it, create visualizations that are so incredible. I think the, the, the, the, the thing that, from, sorry, this sort of little conversation to me that is so important when you're thinking about designing as an architect that you don't forget that you're going to physically create something at the end of this process, that you're, you're moving towards, um, a, create, a, a result that isn't digital, that is tangible, tactile, physical.

18:24And we'll stand, um, and that thinking, I think, which seems basic, is, is lost sometimes. Yeah, sure. Yeah. It's like, really? Right. You know? Right. Right. So, yeah.

18:43I think it goes back to something you said earlier, which is the truth, is that in a lot of the computer programs, there's no, or all of them, there's no gravity. There's a ground, so when we orbit, we're not completely distorted, but there's no gravity, so it's really easy to be, be, like, further distanced, um, from, from reality when you're working that way. There's almost not even any need to, to think about reality if you're just working in the computer. And especially also maybe, you know, if you're, these are, these are generalizations, but if you're a younger architect or architectural designer out of school, you know, and a lot of times school is, is more conceptual.

19:22The things you do are, are, like, literally floating in the air as a conceptual project. And then, I mean, I remember when I transitioned to, to, to practicing, I was hit with the reality of, of, of structure, of budget, of schedule, of, of all these things. And you're like, oh my God, it's actually really hard to design a building that looks really, let's say, looks really cool, right? Like we would do in school, but have it perform in all these very, very serious and real ways. It's, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a really big challenge, um, honestly.

19:53And it's not what you tackle in school and it's, it takes a long time to learn. To achieve our buildings, you have to conduct so many things, you know, and, and, um, you need to conduct, um, compliance, approvals, budgets, um, you have to be so considerate of the environment and the materials that you specify, the longevity of your decisions, um, and, and, and materials that are better environmentally.

20:25And, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and you, you are conducting so many things and to bring it together because the success of the building has got so many different measures, you know, um, it, it has to obviously look fantastic and, and perform fantastically. It has to, um, it has to, um, it has to be delivered so that there's a sense of, um, satisfaction in terms of the financial model that the client sort of, um, had set and the parameters for the project, um, doesn't exceed a boundary where it isn't enjoyable.

21:14As beautiful, as beautiful as it looks, it's, it, it's cost too much. And it, and it hasn't, hasn't meant those constraints. Um, and, um, and so you, and, and that's, that's fascinating because like, as you say, you know, when you, uh, being educated about design and, and, and, and, and what being an architect as a professional might mean,

Starting Young and Naive

21:38your visibility to all of those factors is limited i mean and it probably should be i think that's the other thing i think there's a yeah yeah if you knew all the things that you had to juggle to achieve a building i don't think anyone would come back for the second day if they if they presented it on the first day you'd have an empty room the next day this is this is ridiculous why why would i come back there's other things to do and um i wouldn't blame them there's there's there's

22:08so i think that naivety is actually a good thing because i think it means that you can you can educate and and you can build um you know or skills or talent and areas that have the foundation and and and design and and creative processes and i think that they in my memory of architecture school you know that's how it started and and then technology and and the technical

22:41start feeding into that um and and it probably has that hierarchy of sketching thinking imagining and then the technical enables those that thinking to be achievable but if the weight of running a business because that's the other thing you know there's there's you know yeah there's another one you know there's the practicing as an architect but running a business paying the bills

23:14dealing with the tax department and all of those things um you know which which is um what all business owners have to navigate you know so it's not unique to architects but it is it's it's it's there's so much that um you you need to understand and and i think yeah and i we started our architectural practice i think i was six months out of finishing my university degree and jeff and i decided um decided very young to let's just go and start up an architectural practice and and the

23:49reason that we did it was probably being naive we we didn't really know how far you could fall you know or yeah or we were so young that we didn't actually have far to fall you know we didn't have right right right we didn't have mortgages we didn't have kids we didn't you know at that point if if things didn't work out we'd just get up the next day and do something else so there was potentially an an opportunity and and and actually being so young in our professional careers it meant

24:21that it it actually didn't have the barriers that it might have had if we did it later yeah are you and jeff roughly the same age i mean were you both fresh out of school deciding to do this four years older than me so he'd he'd actually um been um okay he'd been working uh in a studio um for for a few more years and and that's sort of really how we met i'd i'd finished my university degree jeff had been working in a studio um for a couple of years and then i was offered a role there and um and and and yeah and and so we we actually didn't work on projects together um we um we we we

25:01we spoke and we talked about design and we realized that we had a lot of similar views and alignments and then um and then a few months after starting i realized i didn't like working in the studio i didn't like um i didn't like the environment it wasn't it wasn't a healthy place to work um and that potentially when you're young and out of university there's a sort of sense of oh you you know it's

25:33never going to be like a rose garden you've got to you know you put the effort in and you know do the hard work it actually um it was more than that it was an environment that where i'd had this opportunity through university to be highly creative i was offered a job because i thought i had that talent and i had a fantastic sort of folio as i left university um but then i was put in an environment where i froze i couldn't the the the the the expectations and and and and the way that

26:06um i was expected to sort of work just um didn't enable me to do anything that i you know i i thought i had confidence in doing so but anyway that that that's that's another story that the the the the benefit of being in a place that i didn't like was i was motivated motivated to do something else and and this is what we did so i'll forever thank that um experience you know all that um you know the fact that it wasn't a great experience it kicked jeff and i into something that has been great

26:38yeah i mean even with jeff being a few years older than you you both still started the practice you know pretty early on it's not uncommon for architects to graduate practice for five to ten maybe even longer years to depending on the scale they were to and then pivot and do their own thing and there's always this thought that obviously there's a lot to learn as a practicing professional architect and uh one would assume that to gain that knowledge you'd have to work at an office or a few offices for on the magnitude of five to ten years and then then you're you're

27:12knowledgeable enough to go start your own thing is is is one train of thought um but to be honest i've i've because we started our practice similarly you know after waiting for after practicing in other offices for a number of years and i've on occasion looked back and wondered like was that the the best route or would have been better to start six months or a year out of school and that's a coin toss i'm not entirely sure i mean to each their own and everyone's different but i i'm not entirely sure because there's a lot you can learn just on your own too if you're hungry enough you have to

27:46learn and that's the other thing like you that's true survival thing so if you don't know it you're going to spend most of that night figuring it out so the next day you'll you'll you'll you'll you'll you'll at least be halfway there um i think it yeah i don't think that there's a right or wrong way and it depends on you know different circumstances but the thing that is is absolutely critical whichever path you take is you need work and and so the decision for us was benefited by the

28:18fact that um both jeff and i had been approached to do work sort of off the box if you know outside of our um professional work and and you know could you do these and they were both they were two beach houses um and and and that was also um an opportunity so so when we decided that you know we would go and set up our business it actually was with the foundation of well i've got this private job and i had this private job i said well that's a business if we combine those two let's go and do

28:50them and um so we were lucky enough to have built relationships with people that you know hadn't been interested in us and wanted to um take some risk with us because we didn't have a track record record we didn't but we had enthusiasm we had some energy and um and that that was that was fantastic so it meant that we were busy straight away we had effectively a year to do the design um for these two projects um before construction needed to start and those projects for us were highly successful

29:30they were photographed they they won awards both of them and and and that catapulted us into you know our next round of work by the visibility of those those those um those projects being sort of published so it was it was it was fantastic and it worked you know and and we we we we we haven't ever looked back we haven't ever doubted that what we did was right we you know we like i said we were naive we just started working um and we and we surrounded ourselves with fantastic mentors and advisors you know

Global Practice and Mentorship

30:04the um the um the world of architecture and i actually think about this now even in our professional careers if you reach out to other architects the people that we've dealt with and when we were young are so giving of their advice their time they there there is a sense of uh community within all of the architects i know and so when we were young there were um people that we respected that were in their sort of twilights of their sort of careers that actually had time to sort of talk to us and mentor us and

30:38tell us about um their experiences that was always quite pleasant because they were never trying to tell us because you know they saw that you know we were trying to forge our own path but they they were able to share their experiences and you know and that ranged from sort of not just design but sort of navigating tricky clients and getting paid and um all the other things that you know we you know we really didn't understand but now um i think about where we work and you know we're fortunate that we

31:10you know we're based in new zealand but we work around the world and we have work in so many different countries which means that when we go to these other countries i'm always desperate to meet other um architects and talk to them about practice and understand that you know the different sensibilities that sort of affect practice in different places and i think um being in los angeles a couple of weeks ago and having a fantastic lunch with an architect michael kovac from kovac studio um

31:41who's become a great friend and um and then that happens in lots of places around the world where we go we we just we we meet these people that practice in different places and and and we benefit from their sharing you know i mean we've been working in the states for a number of years and but we've we've worked in the states always realizing that we're an outsider you know we come from a different part of the world and that our knowledge pool and our and our connection with sort of consultants and

32:16other people um isn't the same as you know as it might be if we just worked locally in new zealand but you know that people are so sharing you know michael has always been able to sort of say oh you know if you need a consultant this is the person you know we would talk to um in this area and and those those bonds and and conversations build and um we've done for um um the the palisades rebuild a little project with kovac studio under the sort of case study two um banner which has been fantastic a little

32:51collaborative design so and and so things spring off these relationships and and and in the phase of professional career that i'm in now i just love the i love designing but i love the specialness of these relationships that we're building with people in different places and and and and and and and what those might lead to yeah that's wonderful uh i agree entirely with the uh the point that the community is is quite helpful

33:24uh toward each other and i think um it felt like for a period of time at least in my exposure that there the architecture community was uh maybe more competitive within itself more than than anything else but um that's one of the pieces of advice i'm always giving to younger architects or you know people who are just graduating it's like you should just reach out to reach out to the architect reach out to if you're not sure about whatever just cold call somebody cold email them and you'd be maybe surprised like 90 of the time they will get back to be like yeah sure let's go grab lunch you'll

33:57probably get a free lunch if anything yeah um yeah absolutely and i think that um because the thing that i actually admire is the initiative for someone to actually do that you know to you know sort of back themselves um there was a call yesterday from a um student that was um that was trying to get a hold of me that was a friend of a friend and um and they just they'd got my phone number you know and um they rang me and they they wanted to come in and meet and talk about

34:28you know what we did and and um that was great good on them let's let's have a chat let's find out what what they're doing and where they're going and and the other thing that um that we are delighted and and and and so excited by is we um through the studio we have lots of interns um that move through the studio um and actually most of them come from you know the other side of the world

35:00and um and um and their their thinking their experiences their their view on design is um it's so fascinating because you know that they're they're in different worlds they're in different cultures they are um they're a part of their creative career creative career where they haven't got the weight of probably some of the experiences that although i think my mind is free and agile and

35:36and and and unburdened i think you do over time you you carry lots of experiences good and bad but there there is there becomes a weight to your your world and and and and and fresh eyes young eyes when we're designing and and and and and our process in the studios with the interns is that they're they're welcome to the table anytime they're welcome to a client presentation they're welcome to a client briefing and and i love that i love that they you know and um we introduce them

36:12they're they're they're not in the back room filing you know eight eight year old sort of sketches you know they they participate they they and and they and i think for their their professional development it's amazing they they have visibility to you know things that you know i can imagine when i was in their position you just didn't really know how does this go how do you communicate a design to a client how do you how do you respond to feedback how do you sort of counter and so they they're in

36:45the they're in the front row but i but but then we we notice so that so there's this period where they come into the office and you know they're a little bit unsure how they're going to go they're they're young you know they but they they flourish i think because we provide that um sense of opportunity and confidence for them after a day or two they start to just you know they they shine they show ideas they they put it put their hand out they they say i can do that i'll you know i'll contribute

37:15and it is so delightful when you when you see their their world or you start to understand their world and their thinking it's so we we we get a lot from it because i think that sort of the senses and internship is a one-way process where you know interns are coming in to sort of be sponges for the knowledge that we might have sort of built up but but it's reciprocal we love their their energy

37:48their vision their thinking um and um yeah it is definitely something that we we think feeds our our youthfulness as well you know as we as we get gray hairs and you know um there is a sense of um that that yeah that that energy and and fresh vision that i think is really encouraging yeah i mean if if you're getting as much out of it it's probably a sign that you're doing it uh

38:19hosting the interns and providing internships in the right way as opposed to being them being in the locked in the back like you were describing so for some sort of context here how large is the studio

Studio Scale and Diversity

38:29like how many people do you have i guess with accounting and not counting interns we hover around 20 people and we you know that's okay you know with people going on things like maternity leave and things like that it sort of fluctuates but that that's that's our happy place we've we've discovered that if we get much more than that there's a pressure to sort of commercial operations that start to mean that you've got to get more more projects done per month or more client presentations and and and

39:03and and the ratio of administration to creative um sort of um balances and and it's probably not an exact formula but we've we've through you know you know the years of practice we've had we we've we've found that there's a threshold before you know we as as as a creative studio which has the sense of everyone being in the room and designing together which has a lovely sense of intimacy beyond 20 it sort of becomes oh what's happening at the other end of the room which i don't like yeah yeah

39:34yeah yeah i um you know you know we we've started we've talked with a lot of architects i spoke with a lot of architects and words at various places and it's interesting 20 to 23 or 4 if you're counting a few admin people as well seems to be like a magic number and um from what i've seen a lot of the offices who do exceptional work are about that size it's not it's not saying you can't be smaller and do exceptional work or you can't be bigger but it tends to be that that's like the magic body of

40:04about account of people for there to be this kind of resonance i think so and that it dissipates because i and you know it fascinates me i see these huge studios and you know and they do incredible work but the thing that i i don't understand is that sense of um common vision common energy you know that that you know that you know how do you conduct that and and and most of these businesses obviously have you know a division that might do um stadium a division that might do you know something else so

40:38they they they i think they still bundle people into those sort of you know the scalable sort of are they 20 i don't know but i think there's a scale of you know where you can sort of um operate where at some point you need to sort of be a sort of a bundle of 20s you know or something like that but i think we're lucky that in our bundle we don't have to say this this part of the bundle specializes we we're lucky that we work across

41:08a number of different typologies of work which you know is from residential to retail to small hotel to commercial boutique commercial to um repurposing so we we we are rich in diversity and we and we're actually very rich in location and in place um i think this week we've had job inquiries from hong kong uh new york and georgia and i had to look at a map to see where georgia was but um i knew

41:46i knew i was near you know um turkey the middle turkey or somewhere and oh no georgia u.s no georgia europe so um so so it's exciting you know we we get to sort of you know do you ever uh do you ever wish that you had um a higher per so so first question is what percentage of projects are in other countries versus being local to you and the second question is do you ever wish that more of them were local just so i don't know it was easier make your life simpler your life was simpler less

42:19flying you know whatever um i think in terms of ratio although we're um the studio is in auckland which is in the north island of new zealand most of our work in new zealand is actually in the south island which is the more mountainous um area um alpine a lot of the work um there's a city called queenstown um so um and that's almost it is like another country you know it's very different to the north island so um so we're used to traveling you know we and traveling's a vital part of what we do

42:57we can do lots of things remotely and we can use digital tools to um have a much better understanding of sight and conditions than than we ever have had to but um but traveling is is part of what we do and it's not just what jeff and i do it's what the teams do um but it's fun it's kind of like this is this is our this is our home base but everyone's preparing expeditions on monday morning we have a discussion around travel who's going where where are they off to who's going to be in the office but

43:32it does it feels like they're expeditions they're they're they're they're off to um to new places to new environments and and that is exciting you know it's um we've just finished a small project in in seoul and um um in south korea that um we we executed in a very fast manner over um you know sort of a six-month period so that that was another fascinating one and i i sort of traveled up there

44:03a lot but also other parts of the team were moving backwards and forth um the west coast of the states is definitely um some place that we frequent but um but we've got a new project in new york which is exciting and and so um i i i think the other thing because someone asks us about working in different

Sensitivity to Place and Context

44:25places and different parts of the world and and the questions relate to the challenges of it and the excitement of it but the thing that i think about because we work in so many places that aren't our backyard or our neighborhood we have a different sensitivity to place when we discover or go to these places we we we we want to learn we we we are very interested in learning about

44:58you know the the the history of the place the people of the place the geology of the place you know and and and so that that inquisitiveness is is and the research before we jump to designing and you know and and beyond what the client might be asking us to achieve which is normally a certain amount of bedrooms and living rooms and and there might be some pinterest images that sort of bundle their direction we're we're seeking a much broader

45:32understanding than that we we are so fascinated and and and and place and environment and context because i think our buildings and how we design have to have to respect all of those components we we can't be and and and it's potentially a sensitivity that i have we can't be the foreigners that have come into town and think they know everything because we don't we know nothing we you know we

46:04we are lucky to be invited into this special place we're from outside we're outsiders you know and outsiders you know sometimes aren't welcome because you know what what why would an architect from new zealand have any sense of ability or authority to design on the californian coast you know what you know this person what would they know they they come from the bottom of the world and so i'm sensitive to that so to counter that we go beyond just trying to understand what the client wants we

46:42want to know everything about the area you know and and and that and that fascination and and that thinking i think means that we we have a different approach to designing we we bring uh a set of thinking and ideas that probably have a a uniqueness because of where where we were from we're from this little series of islands at the bottom of the world and we've we've grown here and we've designed in these environments so there's something i think special about the sort of the

47:18the nurturing and and and and and and the way that we've sort of um grown and and built our design careers here but as we export that thinking there's this sensitivity to being an outsider and needing to learn and and and and then that like we're saying that it's not not just um you know online research that's relationships that's meeting people meeting other architects and and and to that other point about the community of architects around the world and the and the openness and the

47:51giving that that we are so lucky to receive you know so we we we find ourselves in these different places and and and we and we dive into it we dive into so many different parts of it and try and understand it and and and and and let the the design and the creative process have that foundation is a really important part of you know us feeling confident to design in those places because we haven't

48:23been blasé or naive we we we we have invested in the place it would almost seem like it would be a really really weird and difficult task to design a project in another place for you guys if you don't do it that way yeah like um i think it's for us and some other architects we're speaking with like there's a certain kind of initial steps you take to understand what you're about to do the framing of the problem the research the understanding the site and these kinds

48:56of things and i think i was maybe i was talking to a client i'm like you know it's it's like impossible for us to like just design something without doing that first otherwise i well i'm just going to sketch something random i guess and it's a very uncomfortable thing there is a sense of responsibility well that's true like if you care about what you do like i don't know like a doctor before prescribing a medication like you kind of have to understand what's the patient history what's you know like where do they come from like do they have any you know background and they saw that

49:28any food allergies like you know yeah yeah no you're right you can you can give them all sorts of medicine but if you if you don't understand the the issue then you know you're not you're not achieving anything i think um yeah and i think also there's the there's the you know delivery of services and and what we do and and creating things the thing that i love is actually learning and i think as a as a designer um you have a period where you obviously are in

50:05education you're learning but as we've you know um practiced through the years if there's any part of my sort of rhythm of work where i actually think i'm just doing the same thing i'm not actually learning um i feel quite hollow and i think and maybe and maybe it is a thing about being you know a little bit older now i'm actually hungry for learning more than i've ever been finding out about

50:37places people the other yeah the other thing is that people are fascinating so when you work with incredible people clients it is it is it is fascinating i mean the the experience experience that we have with our clients is

Client Relationships and Trust

51:01incredible we build relationships with people that start you know they're seeking a professional an architect to deliver a service and that you know that that's a professional engagement thing all our clients become our friends they they they build a relationship through a commitment to create something incredible that's more than transactional it's it's about

51:36they have to open themselves up to us they have to put their selves on the table and and and we have to understand if we're fashioning spaces for them and they're not just they're not just um houses you know even there's a retail project that i think this still still aligns with where we have to understand their passions their dislikes their their interests

52:08their frustration and so that that understanding and we talked about the understanding of place and place is really important but the understanding of people and it is so vital to when we're creating something that is so personal and so bespoke that that relationship and understanding of each other is so vital but it's fascinating you know we we we work with people who have done incredible things you know in their professional lives they've

52:45and and and they've had experiences and and and and seen and done things so i just love you know i love the first meeting when we start to you know we've done the electronic emails are you interested in working together yes we are we exchange how we work and then you have the first meeting i just love the fact that i'm about to discover someone that i'm about to find out who who this person is and and and and and we're on a journey that's going to be years long

53:21it's pretty rare for you know one of our projects to be designed and delivered and anything shorter than a year and so you you you you start these relationships that um that you know are going to have endurance and and length um but it's incredible yeah do you think any of the clients you've worked with who have become friends and you've learned about them very deeply through the process do you think any of them had any inkling that the journey

53:57the personal relationship journey with you guys was going to be that intense yeah i would say i don't know i think people probably think about needing a house or needing a building or need you know i've got to you know we need to put a new structure here i need to find an architect let's have a meeting oh they they want they want us to tell what they want us to write down what we like okay and so there's this sort of probably annoying i just want a building but they've got all these questions

54:31what do they want to know if i get up early or not i don't know so so there's this you know when you go to the doctor and you have to fill in those forms and there's like 86 questions and you just want to tick and get it done i think we're even more painful we are trying to understand so that so i i think they discover pretty quickly that we're we're we are very interactive we we we're not passive we it's not just transactional that we want to build uh and learn about them and and what what who they

55:10are what what excites them how they operate so so there's but then there is this nice thing through the process sometimes where we end up that that that even though it's sometimes not needed that they just want another meeting because they enjoy the time with us you know and and and and it's um and that's nice you know that that there is a sense of um the process and and the relationship that we're building isn't just transactional it is actually we've we've we've we've built a

55:46relationship and we're and we're delivering something together um and then and then and we're so fortunate because because it does work and then we have clients that come back and they want to do it again and you know i think some clients were on to a third or fourth project with them you know because they've enjoyed it so much and that's not to say that every day's sunny you know there's there's bumpy days there's days where things are difficult and you have to navigate all of those um together but if you built a relationship of trust and common vision it's a lot easier to deal

56:25with the bumpy days if everyone sort of knows where you're heading and if the bad news is visible and everyone can see it and sort of um sort of figure out what to do do about it um we try and avoid surprises if there's you know news that's not not not what we thought it might be we've got to get it on the table quickly so we can sort of together work out how to solve it um and um but the um yeah i think the the bonds that we have built with our clients and the and the satisfaction we've had

56:59collectively about creating these things is is so propelling for us to keep coming to work and wanting to do it again yeah and now let's give a shout out to our sponsors who support our show available with revit version 2023.1 onward autodesk insight is a next generation carbon analysis tool that can help you make the leap to low carbon design with only a few clicks inside lets you analyze understand and track the embodied and operational carbon impact of your design choices you can then visualize opportunities for energy efficiency and carbon mitigation with its flexible

57:35dashboards helping you make more sustainable and informed decisions check out the inside link in our show notes to find out more this episode of the second studio is brought to you by bqe core the all-in-one firm management software built for architects designed by architects for architects core helps you track time effortlessly manage projects seamlessly and get paid faster so you can focus on design and not spreadsheets with powerful automation and real-time insights it's everything you need to run a smarter more profitable firm see how bqe core can transform your practice by clicking the

58:09link in our show notes the question about the different types of projects because um i think actually in a way uh on paper you guys have i'm sure for a lot of architects or some architects kind of like the ideal practice meaning to say it's high quality work it's it's you're operating in different places you get to learn a lot like you talked about and you get to work on different types of projects and not all architects want to do different types of projects but i think like most of them would enjoy at least dabbling let's say you're doing one or two of different things um my question is

58:44did you find that certain types of projects or are more challenging than others for certain reasons so is doing like a commercial space more challenging than a house does a commercial project give you more freedom than a house uh like what are the differences that you experience i think it um i no i don't i don't i don't start to think that one's more complicated than the other it depends it depends on the client and

59:14who the client is and who the decision maker is sometimes with commercial projects there isn't a easily defined decision maker where the bonds that we were talking about before can be so intimate and direct that you are designing for a group of people and and that yeah and that's harder to to navigate so you have different processes so sometimes that is different um but more often the types of commercial

59:46projects that we work on and and you know um in the scale of the commercial project means there is a there is someone for for us to be considered for the project and and and and and and for it to be something that we're working on i think people come to us because i think they know how we operate so and and and and and i think that you know we're very clear about the sort of the intimate sort of design discovery process that we want to have with a client so um unless it's a competition then we

1:00:21we sometimes do some competition competition work um where that isn't so direct but more often people and you know all sorts of work come to us because of they've seen what we've done they've they've they've had the benefit of meeting us and talking to us and understanding how we operate and how we how we design and how we like to work with our clients so um so that that's understood um i think um you know i think about the different typologies we we we work on they really still do have the same

1:00:58process whether it's a small hotel or a retail space or a or a house in the mountains you know we we we we look at what the opportunity is what we're trying to create we try and imagine with the client what it might be and and that creative sort of generative thinking process is so important for all of those projects to sort of you know be excited together about what we might be trying to

1:01:32make um and then once that is formed and everyone has a sense of that vision the execution be it a house or a large commercial building gets it gets a plan you know you need to step through these sort of arts we need to um understand these types of compliance you know for larger buildings it's it is more complex with fire and structure and other things but but those processes they still exist for

1:02:07a house you know there's you know a house has a number of arts through you know kitchen i think i've had a meeting about a kitchen in a house that probably the amount of meetings i've had i could have designed a sort of a tower you know but because it's important you know and and it is yeah it is such a intimate thing for the client to sort of get right so yeah i and so that there's a lot there's a lot that

1:02:40goes into a kitchen for sure and so yeah so they don't i mean they have very different sort of um checklists if you if that's the right term to to move through but the but they need structure and and edit and and refinement all the way to the end yeah is there a project that you haven't done a

Repurposing Buildings and New Typologies

1:03:03building type you haven't done yet that you want to we're really fortunate because i mean a few years ago people were sort of saying you know what would you like to do and and and and that then i think we were sort of saying you know we'd love to work on sort of hotels and now now now we are so that's great we're loving sort of moving some of our sort of residential sort of sensibilities into sort of um you know um hotels small lodging um and accommodation so that that's working really well um we love repurposing buildings we and sorry this is stuff that we're doing we've and and those are all

1:03:37sorts of buildings like so you know we've converted warehouses to offices there's a there's a project that we've been approached to have a look at which is actually a small office tower i think it's seven or eight levels that has no facade on it it's a frame it's been open to the environment for i think about five years it looks like a war zone but they want to know what we can do with this um the thing which has a lot of embedded um opportunity the chassis its frame it's you know um the you know the the the

1:04:15cost to start from ground up and and discard this this you know um opportunity would be so wasteful um so that is that's exciting for us to sort of imagine how could we take something and and and reimagine it and um but we you know we um i was going to say you know we've talked about i think art galleries are places that you know we're fascinated by but we've been fortunate enough that some of our

1:04:49homes that we've designed have the most incredible art collections that they are almost galleries and in some respects as well i think um there's definitely projects that we haven't done that you know if if the phone rang and they said it was one of these we would be so excited because we haven't done one of those but we don't feel wanting which is a nice feeling we don't feel like there is you know we we the the spectrum of things that we're working across is is so diverse at the moment

1:05:20um that um there isn't a sense of um gap but but saying that um you know if someone comes tomorrow and

1:05:31i don't know if it's a fire station or or what but you know there'll be something that we haven't done that will be so exciting because i don't know anything about fire trucks and their dimensions because you you build this understanding when you're designing spaces you know for you know how high is a ceiling height to feel comfortable for a human what does a domestic garage look like i've got no idea what fire engine appliance you know dimensions are and it was a little bit like because we we've done some aircraft or helicopter hangars before but i was so fascinated because i thought

1:06:09helicopters were a lot lower than they are because they look horizontal but they are very vertical so and then then then the then the other thing you've got to remember is it's not the dimension of the helicopter from the ground up because it's got to get into the building so it needs to go on a you know a trolley or a trailer and that's got a dimension so we started designing this and it's all no because you can't fly it in so you've got to sort of anyway so but all of that learning and you know and understanding the functional constraints and and parameters you know that's why firing

1:06:45fire station would be fascinating because i've gotten no i'm i'm trying to figure out what the dimensions are that we'd be dealing with and um yeah no we are you mostly uh working with an executive architect or architect of record local architects um when you're doing work abroad or if it's a project type that's you know not just a house yes we are yeah so so that's that's exactly how we operate and collaborate um work within uh new zealand and australia we do a lot of work um

1:07:16in australia on the east coast of australia um we we we do we deal with all of that in-house we don't we don't need to um build that but um all our work in um our work in california a new project in new york um the work that we've just finished in south korea have all been executed with the incredible talents of a local architect you know and they they are so valuable and and such an important part of the success of the project so um to be a studio of 20 requires that collaboration is

1:07:55such an important part of what we do so yeah uh pivoting to question about yourself if you weren't an architect what would you be i don't know i think i

1:08:12only an architect no no because i think sometimes it's um sometimes it's not just architecture that we do sometimes it is actually i think we we are a creative studio where we we imagine things and look at once we've come up with an idea look at how we might achieve it and that that could be all sorts of things that could be that that could be a business it could be oh there's no business that does

1:08:48this so maybe we should figure out how we do that or um so um i don't know if i'm explaining it correctly we we we we often go beyond just the architectural brief with our projects we

1:09:05you know especially with um you know the lodging and you know some of the you know we're imagining actually more than what the room might look like what's the experience of how you get delivered to your room what's the vehicle that you might come in what's the what's the sense of the um attire the person might wear at the front desk you know and and there is there is this extension of experience

1:09:31that is definitely outside of our boundaries but but i think if i was an architect i don't think i could do anything where i don't have a imagination sort of or a creative process because i'm constantly thinking of things and not just architectural but things that that that fascinate me that that might not be there that that could be created and um we're starting to look at um product you know we've we've

1:10:08started using the 3d printer we've we're printing and testing um things that range from door hardware to lights and then we've also um started to look at um bathroom furniture as well and this is in its early days but we're so we're we're we're we're we're definitely um fascinated by product as well and um so that's something we're developing um we have done some development property development as well because

1:10:44we've um um we needed to find a new studio um and um so we found some warehouses and converted these warehouses to offices but actually the warehouses were much larger than we needed so with another partner we became owners in a bigger scheme where we sort of built other um tenancies and other spaces so and we loved that so that that that provided us to almost generate our own projects so um so that

Architect as Developer

1:11:21that you know um property developer sometimes has connotations of you know um i think the way we we imagine it it it extends the opportunity of being creative um to to execute projects that aren't um client driven that that there are things that we see or or bits of land or um or things that fascinate us where we might approach doing work that that that that we actually do ourselves at war with a a collective

1:11:57of sort of a small collective of like-minded people that um have other talents in the construction and construction management area that we we work with so that that's something that we we have done and are doing and are constantly interested in how and i think that's how cities and places are made i think about you know the opportunity for an architect to design and create a lot of the time comes from um receiving an email or a phone call of

1:12:29someone saying i would like you to build me one of these and we we build a relationship where you know we we we we respond to that request the opportunity to make the request ourselves or initiate that opportunity yeah ourselves assassinating because i think that's how great places and cities and towns are made by people stimulating the you know um a desire to to create and um and part and part of me

1:13:05was thinking that actually and we are so busy with doing what we do and loving what we do but and and this happens all all around the world you see the best parts of the cities that we live in and the parts that you know aren't fantastic and you think about what would make that place better what what what's missing and sometimes they're not significant things they're that they're just bits of missing infrastructure or or or a general store or places for people to come together or

1:13:44you know um that there's a there's a couple of blocks but there's no sense of community because it it doesn't have an amenity so if part of what we do in the future is seeing these things and actually being responsible for initiating you know through small developments solutions or or opportunities that enhance cities or communities that that does fascinate me that we we're not just waiting for someone else to

1:14:15come up with the idea to to take that initiative um and that would be something that i think it's a side job we're doing already i'd like to potentially do more of it um but it's um yeah and i think that that maybe means that as we've matured and we've you know we've got a a fantastic sort of studio and ability to execute that energy we can start looking at problems that exist and and and and and

1:14:52opportunities to make places greater and and and and and drive those opportunities independently of waiting for clients to bring and say let's let's build one of these and and that may be too ambitious or too um or too uh too difficult to achieve because it you know it requires you know normally a lot of capital it requires risk um development risk um and and actually

1:15:29based in auckland but also just you know you know working around the world um it is so hard to achieve a good idea in most places most the the resistance to you know compliance and and and you know what what's the what's the what's the most challenging place you've worked in on that in that specific note um i think everywhere has slightly you know i mean new zealand has such an incredible

1:15:59natural beauty to build and it is highly protected generally but i'm so glad that it is because you you know the the other outcome is that the natural beauty um is um diminished by the hierarchy of people building bad buildings that sort of don't have respect for it so there is a sensitivity to it being actually a really important thing but there is a sense you know in a number of places that the rules

1:16:33about cities developing extending and and maturing have rules that have they're out of date that are that don't respond to the demand for actually really affordable good quality housing that's connected to good so um travel networks and and people living in places that they want to be not forced to the perimeter of cities and their life is spent uh in their vehicle going backwards and forth because they

1:17:05can't afford to live you know where they they want to be so that that condition is actually in in a lot of places um so and and you know we're not we're not going to change the rule book but we are going to try and look at the rules and push the rules in some areas and we're trying to do that where um there is friction and there's an opportunity that needs to be um challenged so we we think um because if we don't

1:17:37do it who's going to do it who's going to change studies well yeah yeah that's it's a really good point i mean i've kind of long said that what we i think we have some kind of alarm going off this is buzzing in the background but what would be great is if we could have a large body of uh those who are trained as trained as architects or architects uh who are you know on the right side of trying to make cities better leave the profession of architecture and go into public policy that would really be the thing if if we could get get a a large number of architects to do that

1:18:11um that would make a huge huge huge impact because unfortunately and i don't want to go too far off in this tangent but a lot of the ways these decisions are made regarding regulations and development uh you know rules are you know haphazard or not done by the right people who don't understand even if they have the best intention they don't understand all the things they have to understand yeah so yeah you know i don't know how we do that but that would be wonderful if that could take place yeah um i think that's they know that it's international this you know auckland is a beautiful city it's got an

1:18:45incredible harbor it's got these volcanoes and topography actually have two harbors so its natural qualities are incredible it's um living in this part of the world you know i mean um the the built environment is is very young you know we don't have the architectural heritage of you know great cities of the world and so um and then so it's a baby that needs to grow and it needs to grow so well

1:19:20but the nurturing of it is so so terrible you know it's sort of like if you if you looked at you know like from a um you know a baby and you know and people talk about education and you know how you would bring up a child in the best possible way if they applied that sort of thinking and that sensitivities to cities you'd say oh my god it's terrible how would no one this this child can't grow it's awful it's never it has got no opportunity it's got no ability to imagine

1:19:54a future because of the constraints um and that and that is sad that that is because i think the world has a lot of pressure at the moment there's so much that so many problems to be solved but if there was a sense of opportunity and optimism so that the places that we all lived in had this sense of exciting vision for the future and and and i don't just mean in in five ten years i mean in

1:20:3130 40 50 years so that you know our children and their children have a sense of where it might go those those those visions don't really exist they they they exist

1:20:44as modically by different people throwing out their versions of it but they're not very coordinated they're not they're not led like like you said david by a sort of a body of trusted people or authority it's sort of um the maturing of cities i mean the best the best parts of cities i can imagine really exist in either natural beauty or a period of architectural history that is a hundred years old um

1:21:24um the sophistication of building today and and and and developing those cities have have moments of greatness there's there's some incredible buildings being executed around the world but the overall vision for how those cities might develop a mature an intergenerational move i can't picture any of those visions being visible to me

1:21:57that's a really good it's a somewhat depressing but also a really accurate and i think good observation that's uh i'm gonna have to ponder on that one i um i know we're coming up in the hour uh one of my last comments i was going to say is you know your your bit about architect as developer yeah say pretty succinctly um i think is a really good one and it kind of flips the script so earlier you were describing when i asked you what you would be if you weren't an architect and your answer was great it was sort of like the the question leads you to whatever the answer needs to be um and i like

1:22:34the idea of an architect the art the architect being a developer because it's sort of the same thing instead of always having these guidelines that are given to you by a client you are now proactively as a person who sees a wider uh you know perspective and is thinking socially culture and all these things then saying okay i'm witnessing this neighborhood or this city or this whatever what does it need within my budget uh and what can i do and i think that's a very profound it's a it's a profound different position for an architect to be in of course the challenge is the

1:23:11money yeah what we need is some kind of multi-billionaire who's just going to fund a bunch of us architects to do uh what i'm describing but i but i think it's it's a um it's an important it could be a very impactful thing and i think the um the opportunity with maturity and relationships and and and the people that we've built relationships with we actually have it you know on our phone the connection to those billions you know those people actually i i know where a lot of money sits and

1:23:49and if those if those resources were targeted through it a very considered conducted process they would be good investments they would be good investments socially but i think they would also be good commercial investments for for a pool of clients to um to put small amounts of their capital into um into um into a pool for it to be directed and part and that's sort of something i do wonder

1:24:25about as well as as a designer as a person that has built a lot of relationships you know that if you if you have a vision and you have a strong sense of opportunity socially but commercially as well you you you can you can you can collect these people and then take them along on a journey and i think that that is an opportunity um and i think that isn't um something that's on our mind i think um

1:24:59there is incredible wealth in the world um and and i do wonder how how people with a lot of that wealth might respond if there were very strong opportunities like the ones that we're discussing you know if the if there was uh a sense of vision and opportunity um and someone was driving those opportunities um with very strong outcomes i think the the the the the

1:25:39support for it would actually be quite immense if it just needs um it just needs that sort of yeah conducting so and and and and yeah and that that sounds a little bit sort of amorphous because it's it's not site specific it's not project specific but um i think about some of the people that have done great things in this city and and the risks that they've taken and the visions that they've had for the city and and and and and how much better the city is for that sort of sense of ambition and opportunity

1:26:16and and and so i'm thinking if if you know if part of what we do in the future is start to conduct small small small small moves on those sort of fronts that would be quite exciting that we start to sort of um you know um look at these things and rather than waiting for the phone call um you know start to stimulate a little bit of um the opportunity ourself yeah i know marina has a final question uh i'll just respond real quick to what you said um so we actually started a development

1:26:48company earlier this year and so we'll have to talk offline maybe but part of the the creating creating of it um aside from the hopefully personal satisfaction of having a bit more control over projects on occasion uh is actually fundamentally for the purposes that you're describing to try and figure out a way a vehicle for us to be more proactive um and then use that vehicle for you know good reasons yeah and that's exciting when you have that thought and and you you you open gates that

1:27:20you feel that might exist because you've got these good ideas but no one's running you to sort of execute them so you say well actually we'll figure out why you know and and not to underestimate the financing and the and the risks that goes with it because those those are those are those are challenges but back to the sort of i think one of the discussions we had you know we're all about problem solving so okay so we need some money how are we going to find the money oh i know someone's got some money um so he's not going to put money in unless this is a really good idea so that's on

1:27:50we've got to make this a really good idea you know and we've got to figure it out and we've got to think about who's going to build it and so that so it's all part of you know the sort of the strategy of unlocking opportunity um but it's so rewarding you know when we we built we converted these warehouses to our offices you know a sense of pride we had we we you know we changed we think a neighborhood in the city which was effectively dead to the street you couldn't

1:28:20there was actually no um uh pavement there was just grass and then the road so and then we activated the street we put um hospitality we put retail we put offices and this piece of the city that was inactive became a vibrant little street and that was so rewarding you know um and and and and and it is addictive because you say oh let's do it again let's let's find another you know

1:28:57and and um but yeah so it's no it's exciting that you guys are thinking the same thing because i think that um the opportunity of well no that if you have confidence that the ideas are good um you still have the challenge of all the parts that we spoke about but those challenges for me just make me more hungry to do it like okay how do we solve that right let's right let's start figuring it out yeah yeah

1:29:28final question and it's kind of a tradition is what is your favorite building

A Favorite Place in London

1:29:33uh response we get or it could be a different one yeah sometimes we have you know top three if people can't make up their mind but don't give people an easy out

1:29:53i i have so many buildings i think um i'm gonna this is this doesn't answer the question but i think it talks to some of the things we're talking about i love the malibone high street in london and that is not a building that is a place um we're fortunate that we do go to london quite a lot um coming from a young country

1:30:24where that the architectural heritage as we sort of said is is you know not very old to go to a place that has that sense of history texture um it's on the threshold to regents park which i think is one of the most beautiful parks in the world um it has uh a sense of community within a broader city um um it has uh hospitality has retail but it has people living in dense quarters and it is all

1:31:03coordinated into a space that i think is just special um so that that that that works yeah no i like there's a great answer yeah that's a great answer it's very appropriate my favorite building is not a building it's a place i like that i like that a lot

1:31:23tim thank you so much for making the time on and you're in the future day because you're ahead of us on your thursday in this case this was a lot of fun it went by fast um i would love to keep in touch and if we do those project presentations maybe you guys can be with those architects to give a presentation we'd love to and yeah and thank you for being interested in and listening and it's been great to talk to you both and hopefully we can have a coffee in la sometime shortly that works that sounds fantastic thank you everybody for listening to this week's episode

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