16: Resources for your small business

Introduction to NSEKA 360

0:00Welcome to NSEKA 360, a podcast that amplifies and uplifts the voices of the ceramic community. I'm Edith Garcia for the National Council on Education for the Ceramic Arts. Visit nseka.net to learn more about how membership cultivates a clay community and shapes content and opportunities for the field. Follow us on Instagram and Facebook for the latest information about NSEKA.

Host Introduction

0:30Hey, this is Yesha Panchal. I am an NSEKA board member and I am happy to introduce this episode of NSEKA 360. This episode features a conversation about business with artists and hosts Ryan Durbin and Becca Otis. They share resources for maintaining a small business, including the value of creating a

1:03community of entrepreneurs to share your experience. This conversation was recorded in person at the 2024 NSEKA Conference in Richmond, Virginia. Special thanks to the Brickyard Network for co-producing this episode and supporting podcasting in the ceramic community. If you enjoyed this podcast, please support NSEKA's programming by donating at nseka.net slash donate.

Guest Introduction

1:35All right. We don't want to assume everyone knows who we are. So I'll introduce myself. I'm Ryan Durbin from RD Ceramics located in Highland Heights, Kentucky. And I'm Becca Otis and I live in a van from Five Lines Pottery. Oh, but I'm from Five Lines Pottery. And welcome to Wheel Talk. And welcome to Wheel Talk. I've been straddling part-time pottery, but also it's like really a second full-time job

2:05for since 2013, I guess. Since I graduated college, I do a tech job in UX engineering, which is like web

Ryan's Background

2:17development stuff. And then I've been doing the pottery business and growing it little by little since that time. And I'm just very driven to do it full-time someday. I do a lot of art shows and things like that. I've had a studio assistant for a number of years. Erica's right there. She's my studio assistant for the last couple of years. She's awesome. She's amazing. And that's my story. I'd love to do it full-time someday when it's right. Usually I say these days, it's like when I have enough job satisfaction dips

2:48from my full-time job, because it's really hard to walk away from a really great salary and benefits and my managers and everything are very flexible and they understand and they know that I can leave if I want, but they're happy to have me and want to keep me as long as possible. So it's hard to leave that. And we support full-time people doing a part-time hobby because you got to live your life in the best way possible. Yeah. So that's me. That's you. Uh, and I'm Becca and I have been doing

Becca's Background

3:19pottery since, well, I've been doing pottery since I was a sophomore in college. Um, and then I have been doing it, selling it full-time since 2014, um, college. I don't remember the year of that. I think it was 2009. Um, and so I have had a storefront, um, in Washington, a community studio. I've been doing it. This has been my primary business. Like I've never had part-time gigs. Once I had a part-time

3:51gig when my tent flew over. Um, but like, I've never really had a part-time gig, uh, for this whole time. I am poor and I, uh, love it kind of. And I, uh, but now I live in a van and I actually

Becca's Business Evolution

4:10travel and do my stuff at different studios out of that van. I have a wheel, a kiln, and a slab roller in the van so I can do everything that I need to. I've started making more jewelry, um, uh, going forward just because I like it more. And as we discussed beforehand, um, I've been kind of like delving into board games. So, um, doing that and. You're very good with the flow and just like, you know, she can have an idea that she's like, I'm done with this forever. Yeah. And then

4:44like it resurrects itself nine months later. Like you never know. Yeah. I, and also I like fail a lot. Like that's very important to know that I am like one of those people that will think that I'm going to do really great. And then no money comes of it. And so I'm like, great. Got to turn now. I have to figure out how to make money now, you know? So, um, that's, that's pretty much me. And I always say that if you have never listened to our podcast, I'm like the, I am the Jar Jar Binks to his Obi-Wan

5:16Kenobi. So, um, and I still don't know that reference. Yeah. He hasn't seen Star Wars. So, but don't give him a bad time about it. We've, we've done it enough. Um, the gasps. Oh my gosh. But yeah, so he's kind of like, I wouldn't say he's the brains cause we're equally smart, but he's more, um, goal oriented and like driven and structured. And I'm more like, we'll figure it out. So yeah, what's our topic about? So this was going to kind of go, I was going to ask you a question

Overcoming Struggles

5:44that kind of goes into the one question that was, you, you said to me recently about, you feel like you're making the best work that you've made ever, but you're struggling with it. I'm making the best work I've ever made in my entire life as I should be because I'm, I'm at the end of the, my entire career every day. But, um, I, I hope that made sense. Um, each day you're improving. I'm making gallery quality work. I feel like I'm making gallery quality work and I have never sold less.

6:20So, um, and one of the questions was from Sarah, Catherine Clay. Thank you, Sarah was how do you reassure yourself when your work is not selling? Right. All I can say is drugs. No, I'm kidding.

6:34This is not a supportive drugs. I don't do drugs. Um, but yeah. And so we were kind of talking about

Resources for Business

6:41that in the van as we came in here, the whole topic for this entire conversation, quote unquote, from NSEKA is resources for your business, resources for your business. This is very vague. And I think that, you know, a Google search away is, uh, when you, you know, like a lot of resources are Google search away, but what aren't a Google search away is like us talking about personal experiences and different things that you can like, you're like, um, I didn't know what to do. So I did

7:15this, you know, you can't Google that. Like there's only so many forums. Um, and everybody's like, like, I think a lot of what we were kind of going through with and doing the podcast, we talked to a lot of different individuals that we interview and you kind of listen, all these different, um, stories of how they found success with wholesale or, you know, they, they really got into a path and they didn't like it. So they changed and they pivoted and did something different. So you kind of like learn from their experiences and we like, it's helped

7:46my business significantly of like, what do I actually want to spend my time doing? What do I not want to spend my time doing? What's worth the time and investment? And like, what do I think is marketable? Cause I think very business minded as well with like, you know, is it going to be sellable if I make a bunch of stuff and I keep taking it to and from art shows and it's not selling, I'm like, I don't like, I lose the enjoyment of making that item as well. So, but like, are you, are you losing the enjoyment of that? I'm more of a double down type of person. So if somebody doesn't like my piece, I'm like, why? Like you should be liking this. No, I will not sell that for $75 instead of

8:2398. Um, so, but you might like a week later, you might be like, you know what? Like if you catch me at the right time, but since you asked me, can I have this for 75? You're like, no. Um, but yeah, so yeah. And I think that, um, as I'm sure a lot of people can relate to, I am surrounded by people that are successful in my life. I have so many friends that are in the business realm that are successful. Like my best, bestest friend is seven years

8:53younger than I am. And he makes a hundred thousand dollars a year selling cards, greeting cards. And, and so like every time I go to his house, I'm like, God, what am I doing wrong? Like, what am I doing wrong? And I think that, and he's been, him and Ryan have been very helpful in quite literally resources for business telling me like, like, um, at some points when I'm just

9:25struggling, I can't do anything. Like Andrew has done my entire Etsy page for me once just because I was like, I don't know what to do. I can't do this. How often, I feel like, do you ask me for direct advice very often though? Sometimes I don't. I feel like it's, it's probably subtle. You're probably, you're probably teasing because if you know, if you ask me directly, I'm going to like ask you a million fucking questions and you're going to get frustrated. Yeah, that's very true. I think that, yeah. Well, and I go to different friends for different advice too. Um, and I think it's just like, I'm trying to like tie this back to resources.

Community and Networking

10:01We should just talk, but what's fun about the, yeah, the selling part, like reassuring yourself and getting like people around you that can bring you up when you need that, when you need it and also give you honest opinions. So like Ryan is my honest opinion guy. So if I say I'm not doing this well and he's like, well, what are you doing? Why are you doing this? Why are you doing this? And then I have another friend who's like, okay, well how can we fix it? And then I have another friend who's like that friend that you go to when you just want to complain to somebody for a minute.

10:33And then I have another friend that lies to me, you know, like says, no, your shit is great. I love it. You're doing everything right. I have no idea why you're struggling. Um, and I think those are all great resources for business. You're just going to keep tagging the title in here and that's why you need resources for your business. No. Yeah. I mean, like I talked to Ryan when I, I think when

11:05we, when I have the mental energy to like really talk a subject out, like at detail and at length and like having the podcast has been really great for us and having a podcast is a really great resource for our business, but you wouldn't be here if you didn't listen to the podcast. So like we don't have to say that one, but, um, having friends, I think actually is the biggest thing. Yeah. People that you're probably sitting next to, or you've met here or that you're, you've done a pot swap with, or just something that there's like a thread between you that you can

11:40you can get something from and you can build it from there. And it doesn't, it's not a, um, it's a give and take. It's, you always want to give more than you take, I think. Yeah. Uh, otherwise you're, you know, you're, it's very draining on the people that you're asking. Yeah. And I know, I know people, Rebecca, um, Graves Prowse, who is, was my old boss and a very good friend. She had a, what did she call it? It was like a, it was a bunch of women and it was

12:12like a power group. It was some, it was, I don't know, some like fancy dancy group, but, um, they just found each other somehow and they've all decided to make a group that helps each other in different areas. Cause they're all in different business styles. Yeah. You don't have to be other potters necessarily. They're all in different styles and they go together, they come together, they meet like once a year together, but they also have like a ongoing chat and ongoing Facebook group. And I think that, you know, we have always had this community, but not a lot of people do,

12:47you know, not a lot of people have a community. They're like, I wanted to do pottery, but I live in a town of 200 people. And that does exist by the way. And I, there's nobody else, nobody else here. And I'm just sitting here. And I think like Sephora, um, from Sephora ceramics, Sephora ceramics is doing a really good job, like cultivating this community that you can even feel like you're part of it. Like having workshops that are online that are accessible, that you can, if you take a

13:18class with that person, you can go back and say, Hey, I took a class with you. Can I ask you another question? Like, and, or have you tried that? Have you run into this issue so that you're not going to the source of like the person that's probably bombarded with questions and, but you also paid for it. So like, you can probably get away with some of the questions that are, but you've also like given some effort into working your way toward trying it before just having very broad statements. That's going to put a lot of work on them. Right. But you can also, yeah, go with the

13:50person that you took the class with and be like, Hey, I started trying this out on slabs and this is what I've been doing. Like, are you experiencing this or have you tried it or? Yeah. And I, yeah. And, and you can intentionally make a group of your own friends or of people that don't even know each other and be like, Hey, I'd like to do this. Like people do with book clubs all the time. Why can't we have clay clubs? Right. Um, we do it all the time and, and it's just, I don't think that's what we were doing with Instagram live when we were before the podcast existed, you know,

14:22that's how we met. Like I would do Instagram lives. He would come on and we just like chat about different ideas. And that's how the podcast started because we wanted to chat about more things. And the more you talk to other people, the more you learn, the more you fail, the more you learn. So how do you know who to ask for help? Because if you're, if you're a hobbyist and just getting going or, you know, you're still like a baby potter, quote unquote. Yeah. How do you know who to go to or, you know, um, I'm going to go to, when do you need it?

14:56I'm going to push this back on you because I think that I always do this to you. No, I'm doing it to you because Ryan is probably the best community builder person that I've met. You, I don't know how you've done it, but he, like the reason that we know so many people is because he has little by little, what I've, what I've observed is he's little by little commented on people's photos, dropping breadcrumbs everywhere, dropping breadcrumbs, like little, little breadcrumbs, not coming on to encouragement, breadcrumbs. Like, and also like, Hey, I like,

15:30if you see something, you genuinely like it, like leaving a comment to another potter of yours that you appreciate and say like, Hey, I appreciate the work that went into that. Or cause you know what's involved in like, Hey, you're like, we're like, we're in this together. Like we know what you go through. So it's like, I know what that involves. Like I really, or like if I see something from, you know, Kurt and I'll be like, Hey, like that glaze kind of like, he's like got a bunch of them. I'm like, that's not my favorite, but like, I really love that one. You know, that one, like, I really want to get that one. Can I get that one? And I'm like, yeah.

16:01And he's bought their pots too. Like that's also a big thing. Supporting your friends and supporting the people you are in, like you, you admire is really important for show. It's like a good first step to being like, I have this pot of yours and it's lovely. I'd really love to talk with you someday. If you had, like, if I could, you know, that's, that's another thing we were going to talk about is how to ask the etiquette, the etiquette, but I'd really love to chat with

16:33you about this someday. If you have the time and, um, and they can either come back with, yeah, I'd love to, or they can come back with, yeah, I do consultations if you'd like. And that might spark into a friendship, but it's also, you know, a good way to find a resource or for, you know, resource for business is to pay somebody to give you a resource for your business. But, um, yeah. Yeah. I think it's been natural, um, little by little. I don't, I don't think you feel like I'm running on a rainbow tracking on my head. I'm on the track.

17:11Um, yeah, you just have to, you have to be in it for the, like the request has to be genuine. You have to put your work in so that you're actually like showing interest in what they're doing as well as just open to understanding that they might not have the time or effort that you would like back in return for what you're asking. Yeah. But I think the words of encouragement on people's, you know, peers posts. And I feel like, I feel like a lot of the people that I like

17:42got going with was like, I'm like naturally staying around and like seeing how they're progressing as well. And we're kind of like growing together year by year. Yeah. Um, I hope that's still a thing with Instagram that people that are still early in it feel like they're not, they're not behind the game and, and they're, they're too late. You know, I think that, I think that some people, um, you know, in high school when you're like, you know, you're like a freshman, right. And you try to

18:12become friends with a senior and it's just not going to happen. Right. Um, but if you become friends with another freshman, then when you're a senior, people are trying to ask you to be their friend. And I think that that's the same thing in pottery. I love that. I do too. I just came up with it. Um, and so we, we'll use Kurt as an example. Kurt Hammerly started becoming popular when we were

18:43hobby potters getting or, or beginning our business. So when we were messaging him, he was reciprocal. He was, and I'm not saying he's not reciprocal. Um, but like when we were messaging him, he was messaging us back and saying, Oh yeah, I found out this too. And I did this too. And, but if I was a hobby potter right now and I messaged Kurt, I would, I think that I would feel like this guy's big. There's yeah, there's no way he's going to respond. And then if he does, you'd be like, Oh my God, what the hell? But now, now that we have grown that relationship with him,

19:18he is a resource for us. Like we will chat and we will, I love talking shop and we've had him on the podcast a few times. Yeah. And like every time I'm in Colorado visiting my parents, I go down and talk to Kurt and have a day with him. Like, you know, so we didn't automatically reach out to that person that was like way above us. I've never talked to Steven before this year. It's also, it's also kind of a facade, right? Like it's just a number. Like if they didn't know who he was, like he's just a normal dude, right? Yeah. So I think that it's not, you don't have to glorify an

19:52individual because of their Instagram number. Right. Reach out to the people that are at an equal level for you because then you can grow with those people. Skill level and what the, you know, are they starting a home studio? Do they already have a, are they in a community studio or are they using studio glazes and they're starting to like venture out and make their own glazes or they, you know, maybe they hear an episode of the for flux sake and they're like, you know, they were talking about this of like absorption stuff. Like, do you know how to do that? Have you done that? Do you want to come over and we can like do absorption tests and like understand what the hell this is? And you kind of grow together. You know, hopefully you live in a place where you can have

20:28people physically in the same spot and you can do things one-on-one and just chat and those organic conversations come up and you can spit ball or you're in a car for eight hours with four people and you can talk about stuff. Um, or you can do it virtually and you're like, okay, well, we're going to have a virtual coffee for an hour every Friday or every other Friday. And we just, we show up and we do it just like you want to like schedule time to go in the studio and you're just like, okay, I'm going to do it because I committed myself. I have discipline to do it and whatever

20:58comes of it comes of it, but I'm not gonna, yeah, I'm not going to like just flake off because you know that you're, you're working towards something. Yeah. Let's talk about how to ask

Asking for Help

21:11if like, let's say you are going to message Kurt. Let's talk about how to ask. So Heidi was sharing this recently with a interaction between her and I, because I was asking about wholesale because I was doing my first wholesale show, but it was a wholesale retail show. So it was, you know, having new customers come that were potentially interested in, in doing wholesale contracts with me and I was writing a line sheet and I was like, okay, how do I, I did the work of like, okay, I know you need minimums, you need delivery, you need the

21:45paragraphs of like four different hot topic items. And then you're like, okay, but I know Heidi's done it a lot. So let me like reach out to her. Let me reach out to Becca, but here's my draft. Here's my first draft. It's got quite a bit of information in there. I've done what I think I can, which it was probably, I don't know, 80% of the way there anyways. And I was just proofreading it and I reached out to her and I said, Hey Heidi, like I'm interested in, I'm doing this wholesale show. I've written up my line sheet. Here's what I'm hoping that you can have a look at it and just give me anything that I obviously missed or I'm not

22:19thinking of because you've done this. And if you can do that, great. If you can't, I totally understand. My thing is this weekend and I texted her, but the same would be true for, um, Instagram personally. I'm an email fan. Yeah. Depends on the person. It depends on the person. Uh, when I first started out and I was first doing wholesale, I, um, Rebecca Gray's, uh, Rebecca's Rebecca Gray's process. Um, best friend Jen was like my idol for throwing

22:55like where I wanted to be when I was throwing. And, uh, and I sent her an email and I said, hi, like, I am just, I'm new at this and I admire you and I would, and if you have any time, if you have any time at all, I was wondering if you had any good option, like good advice for who has wholesale, like how to get into wholesale. And that way, if she didn't have any good advice, it, it could come in an email and be almost more formal to like, Hey, I really

23:28appreciate you like reaching out, but I don't have the time right now. I can't do this, but she didn't, she came back and she had like a list of like seven things. And that's how I learned about Etsy wholesale at the time. That's how I learned about certain things. And I was really grateful for that, you know, but I don't think that if I had done it over Instagram, it would have felt a little bit more disingenuous. Um, and especially it was a little bit before Instagram was such a business tool, but.

24:01And I think some of it today you can put stories out and just say, Hey, I'm interested in hearing about if there's anybody that has experience with this specific thing and you can get, and I was, I was just thinking like, okay, what if they listened to an episode where we, or somebody else talked about some topic and, Oh, well I listened to an interview recently and Heidi was talking about pricing your work and you know, I've, I've been struggling with that. So like, did you listen to that? Have you, did you have any takeaways or like, can we, why don't you go list? Can you listen to this? And then we can talk about it and we can talk

24:34through like how we're thinking about it as well. And you kind of give them a resource to, to do some research or look into, and then you can come back together and figure it out together sort of as well. And if you, right. And also on top of that, if you feel like it's like, if you're looking for information that you feel is important, like you need it, right? Offer to pay them just, and you don't have to pay or you don't have to offer much, but it's like, um, uh, I'm at the Tills of Killen in Utah right now. And Joe, he has a,

25:07he has like the paint your own pottery studio. And if somebody drops something on the ground and they offer to pay, he's like, no, no, no, it's fine. Like it's free. But if they don't offer to pay, he's making them pay. Okay. So it's like that. If you show them some sort of kindness, Hey, you, you should expect them to take it. But if they don't, they know that you value them, you know, like, but if you're like, Hey, what lace did you use? Uh, on that pot yesterday? That's so cool. I love your stuff by the way. F you. Yeah. That that's a,

25:41like, not really, but like, I don't want to talk, I don't want to tell you now, you know? Yeah. I think one other note that I was writing about, like, if you go to your other shows recent, like close to you, I think it's always good to make rounds and see the, the peers of yours. If you, you know, and if you admire something they're doing and you, you know, purchase a pot from them and, you know, want to connect further, not monopolize their time at the booth, but you know, make some connection with them and maybe they're another resource for

26:14you. And it could be that they're in like Indy two hours away, but you can, for me at least. And you know, maybe you have a new friend in Indy and you can, you know, if you're in town, you can have a drink with them or coffee with them or whatever. So you can catch up and see what's going on. You know, how are you planning for your year ahead? What shows are you doing? What are you thinking about? I'm thinking about maybe some shows coming up. I don't really know the market in here. Like, do you have recommendations here? Um, I think that's a good way to get a face to face with somebody because through social media that it, it can get, it can feel like everybody's

26:50the same. It's hard to like get a judge of like, okay, why are they asking me this? And like, what's their angle or, you know, um, or yeah, it just, it, it just can feel more like you're in the moment and you're just chatting with them and, um, something can form of it or nothing can form of it. Like maybe you just don't gel with them. You're like, oh, they're different than like what I expected or. That's the bummerest bummer, isn't it? Like when you meet your hero and they're awful. You're like, God damn it. I really wanted to talk to you,

27:24but you're kind of terrible. Um, and we, we also mentioned this in the car. We were talking about, um, Jessica mentioned that she was saying there's, there's a vast amount of information out there and we, we kind of hear it. We probably heard the same thing multiple times, but at some point you're only accepting of the thing that's in front of you. Like you're only looking for answers of the thing that's in front of you. And maybe you've come across an answer

27:56to something that you're going to experience a year down the road, but you're not at that point in your life, in your business or whatever, to be able to receive that answer in the time that you hear it. So, you know, you might need to come across it way later and it's like, okay, like that's exactly what I need to do. And it's just so obvious. Um, the example, the example was I need to open a separate business, a separate account. It doesn't have to be a business account, but a bank account that's separate for my business so that everything

28:28is siloed in one place. It sounds so easy enough. And I'm like, why did it take you to listen to the Rebecca interview? Like we've said that to hear that because I feel like we've said that a bunch of time. And I was like, Oh, well we talked about that with the, the small business, um, taxes with Jamie Boyack. We did that back in the day. Like we talked about that. Definitely. She told us that I remember that. Yeah. And she was like, Oh, well I don't remember that. And I was like, she was like, but it just like in the moment, you know, you run into it and you're like, how do I organize this shit? And she's like, Oh, I just need like a separate account. And that sparked it. It's like,

29:02Oh, that seems obvious, but it makes me feel better that we can repeat ourselves and people are going to accept it at different points because people find the podcast at different points too. Yeah. Um, yeah, for sure. I was just going to say something. I forgot it. I always know your go-to statement is for sure. For sure. Does anybody else notice that?

29:26Well, well, well. Um, yeah, I, I think that also, okay. You know, when you're like, when you're young and when you're in college and stuff like that, old people give you, I mean, old in the sense of people that are older in the craft, I suppose, give you advice and you're like, shut up. Like, I don't need your advice, but, and I agree, I agree. You should have your own voice. Um, but I think it's good to file those things

29:59away. You know, you don't have to, you don't have to be like, Oh wow. Thank you for your advice. I love that so much. You can be like, okay, thanks. And then, but someday that is going to come back to you and you're going to be like, Oh, I've had that. I can share that. The, the Tim C interview, we were talking with him about small things and we were talking about what comes of shot glasses or spoon rests. Um, what, like, you know, what, what is the benefit of having those

30:30items in your shows or whatever? So it's kind of like, you know, at, at what point are you, it's like, it's a little bit like, fuck you. Like I can make some, I can make a bunch and I can make them efficiently and I can sell a bunch. Like what's wrong with that? So for cheap. Yeah. Um, but it's like, okay, like, yeah, I'll take it. And then you kind of store it. And then at some point I'm like, what was the advice he gave you? Well, he, he was kind of like, what do you, what's the, where does that go? Where's the value of that? Where's the value of that? You know,

31:01you're just kind of like a machine at that point. You're just doing the thing to do the thing because it can sell. And like, what's the next step after the spoon rest? Like, is that going anywhere? Can you evolve from that? And, um, and I kind of use it as, okay, this is, you know, it's a bread and butter item. I think this shot glass was more what I took away from it was the, that, okay, I'm not going to take those to and from shows because my reasoning was people clog up the booth to buy a $10 shot glass and they're blocking potential opportunities for other people to buy.

31:38And some, some people are so indecisive and I've got 50 shot glasses out there. Everyone's a little different. They're different colors. And they're like, okay, I don't know which one I want. And they end up getting one or three or whatever. And they spend $30 and you know, and also it's just like cumbersome. You take it back and forth and you got to manage inventory online and on in person and stuff. So it was like, for me, it made sense to just, okay, you know what? I didn't take shot glasses to any shows last year and it was fine. Yeah. I sold them online. I keep up with the

32:09inventory. I just have one shelf of it. I can keep up with it and also sell them to wholesale. Like the, the money that I'm leaving on the table, um, is worth it for me because I get to make other things and I don't have to, it's not even in my mind to think about managing stock and taking stuff to and from the shows for the shot glasses. Um, and they're also low price items. Like if I can get people to appreciate and now the, the base price item would be a spoon rest for me.

32:39And that's like $20. And I still think that's very doable for a lot of customers. And that's like a good entry point for people. Like everybody can find a use for that. Um, and I, yeah, I just feel like it's, it's, I don't know that his, he was dropping a breadcrumb in me, I think of like deciding. Yeah. I also have something I I'm changing the subject kind of, but, um, I was just thinking about how it's interesting how people approach NSEKA specifically. So we, me

33:14and Ryan, Ryan and I, um, we come to NSEKA not to go to any of these talks. We, we, I haven't been to one. I like tried to go to one and I got bored and I left and, um, not really. It was, there was a lot of people too, but, um, and some people go to NSEKA to go to the talks. There's two very separate people. And I think that, um, you really need to think about what you're coming to

33:44a space like this for, uh, for instance, before this talk, the reason why we were only, we only had 15 minutes like of being here beforehand was because we went to every single person that we were like, Hey, maybe we want to do a sponsorship with these people. We networked all the way around the floor tonight to this morning and didn't even hit the people that we like all of them. And that is really important for us. Okay. So you need to find what's really important for you in this space.

34:14So if you're trying to grow your business, if you're trying to grow your, so if you're trying to find a new technique that you're like, I feel stuck. I don't know what I want to do. Like maybe watching somebody do their technique and seeing the decision making they're doing along the way is going to spark some little nugget in you to be like, I want to try that. So if you're a hobby potter and you're like, I really need to sell my stuff, but I really want to see how this person does handles, how this person approaches this, go to the, go to the talks. If you're a business person that's looking to like increase, you're looking to talk to people, like maybe you want to see

34:49if mud, like mud tools want to work with you, or maybe you want to like connect, like this is the perfect opportunity for you to talk to people at Brent at speedball at mud tools at all of these places, because they are so personable and they're so in their element right now. And that like, and Sika is a huge tool for you to use as a business. It's a resource.

35:17Just tying it back. But this is a huge, huge thing. We grow every single year we come here because of this conference. And if we don't, if we don't come here, we don't grow in certain ways. Yeah. And I think it's more personal to the person, the, the people to people interaction, like people we see like you, like, so, you know, people I talk to every day on the, on the internet essentially, and have like grown accustomed to seeing in my DMS, I get to see

35:50them. I get to talk to them. And that means that now that we've made this connection, it is without a doubt, if they come to me and say, Hey, I got this question, no problem. Let's talk it out. Let's have a call. Let's do a video chat. Like you got that rapport started already. Yeah. And so I think even like, yeah, so really decide. And I mean, all, most of you are here probably because of the, the name, I don't know, like because of the topic. So I

36:20would assume that most of you are here for business or do a business. So, but that's an assumption though. But yeah, keep that in mind as you are here, even for the last couple hours, like this is a perfect, perfect time for you.

36:34It's one 37. We had one point about outsourcing, but I don't know that I want to talk about

Q&A Session

36:41outsourcing. I don't want to talk about that. Okay. Do we want to do questions? Like, do we have a lot of questions? I feel like we should. Yeah. Do we have a lot of questions or should we keep talking until the 45? She'll look like she's about to raise her hand. Like, okay. Right here in front. Yeah. Let's just do questions and then we can go.

37:02Hello. Hello. I'm Jenna. Jenna. From Level Studio Arts. My question is, so I have two very, very different types of work that I create and I'm constantly like reestablishing what it's going to look like and changing it and evolving my work. So it's almost like from your statement, I have like my basic pottery that I could go to a show, they could sell out. Fantastic. But if I want like my pottery that is like my art

37:37that I have a story behind or anything like that, that ain't selling at shows. So I guess my question is, should I have these two different setups of work? Should I combine the two together? Should I go gallery route? Should I have both like thoughts, opinions? I have a question first before we kind of dive into it. Um, how do you feel about each one of them? Um, like, do you, is there one that you clearly like more? Is there one that you're doing

38:09because you're passionate about it? And is there one you're doing because you have to make money? Uh, exactly that. Okay. That's the, that's the case. Okay. So long-term you would love to just sustain yourself on the art. Yes. Over the basic pots. Correct. Correct. Yeah. I think that I'm going to hit this one. Go. Yeah. I mean, you, do you want to hit it? Go. Okay. Oh, we can both go for it. But I've, I'm, as you said, I'm doing the exact same thing. I have done the exact same thing and it's hard as fuck.

38:40Yep.

38:44And, um, personally, I'm not, I'm not a fine. I, I consistently have said recently that I am a fine art booth at a farmer's market show. Okay. Because that's actually literally what's happening. Um, the only show that I'm doing is at a farmer's market right now. So, um, I think over the past couple of years, just from a feeling perspective, I don't have the information for you for the other stuff, but it's been extremely satisfying to do the

39:19stuff that if I put it up online and I don't sell anything, I'm not really upset about it. Like those dominoes have been really a passion project for me. And, um, it is still, but I am still really struggling mentally. Okay. And, um, you're making it for yourself, not for the customer, but it's also, it's, you know, that it's, it's, it's, it's going to take time. Yeah. And I think that that's, if you can find something that's very basic to hold you through that time,

39:54like how I'm doing the jewelry, that's kind of just like very basic and then doing the fancy shit. I think that's the most sustainable way personally, but, um, kind of wean yourself off of it, but you do need friends that can be there for you because I have been in a pretty deep state of depression through this just because it's been really hard to have the, the failure, not the failure, but like the rejection almost of it. And, um, even though I know it's worth it,

40:28it's just going to take some time. So, but I wouldn't have told you that answer three years ago also, just so you know, so I would have been like, just keep grinding. It's fine. You know, and like fuck art. Um, and like, so, but yeah, it's really hard to do that. And I have one friend that's like, Hey, you need to take your stuff to the galleries up front and show them your earrings. They'll buy them on the spot. And she's like, really, she like really tries to get me into good shows and to nice shows. And I need her in my life because then I'll actually do it. Otherwise I've

41:04been like not doing it, you know? So you kind of know what needs to be done, but you don't necessarily have the drive to do the legwork, to reach out to galleries and be like, Hey, I've got this option. I'd love to consign her. I love the wholesale. Do you do that? Here's my work. Here's the reason I like, it takes a lot of energy to do that. I think a lot of research, this is a time also in your life that you really need to heavily rely on your friends. If that makes sense or your support group that you have and be upfront and honest with

41:35them and say like, I'm going to go through this and I, but I have a goal. This is my goal. Yeah. I was going to, I was going to say similar, like wean off of it little by little, like my Skaffito work is only like, I might post more about that because it's more interesting and passionate to me as well as it's more eye catching. But honestly, like 75, well, I was going to say 75% of my business revenue is probably from the production work. It's not

42:06the Skaffito work. But also I realized if my whole body of work was Skaffito work, my body would not be able to handle, my hands could not handle the carving and Erica could not, you know, she can't keep up with the like underglazing every single pot that needs to be underglazed because I don't do any of that. You know, can, can we physically handle that as well as do I have the market to actually sell all of that to customers? I don't currently have that. I'm growing it little by little by little. And then I'm realizing like,

42:40okay, I would love to do the carved mugs and the carved bottles, but I realized for every carved mug I sell, I sell 10 carved bottles. So like, Hey shit, I can crank out a bottle in three minutes on the wheel. I don't have to put a handle on it. Like, that's great. I'm just going to do that. And it costs $5 less right now. Like people are going to buy those way more. So like if I don't have to make mugs, like that's great. Maybe this is my, my shoe in to making forms that are simpler, but the graphic design part of it carries it. And also it's more enjoyable to make because it's

43:12less time consuming. I would also say like a healthy ratio to like if you are doing like a shitty show or, you know, farmer's market or whatever like that, having a healthy ratio of like fancy pasta shitty pots is really like good to have. It's a different price point. Like 20 to 80. And then like, and then, you know, maybe if you're at a fancier show, 80 to 20, like, you know, you're kind of like, or if you're a really fancy show, just go all out. But, um, having that, like almost like

43:42having a safety net is, is a really good feeling, but it also gets people really interested in your work and like gets people. I like the, I think I've, I think I've, but that could be wrong too. I could be wrong. I think the idea I was kind of spitballing as well at one point was like making the basic work can carry you and it gives you a longer runway so that as you lift off to the other stuff, it, it's not such a drastic change. It's not like stopping tomorrow and starting on the other body of work. I just feel like that's so risky and I'm very risk averse. So I wouldn't do that. But,

44:15you know, I think it gives you that like stockpile of savings and the business is stable and it gives you reliability. And if you're like happy enough making it and you can make money with it and you can also like increase your prices on it so that you don't have to kill your body to keep up with the demand. Oh, I have another question. Is this your full-time gig or are you part-time? Part-time. Oh, then just go for it. Oh, the part-time also helps too. I mean, I'd love to be full-time, but yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's it. It's not, if also, I guess we were just approaching that as a

44:46full-time situation. I would apply that to part-time too. Well, okay. Your part-time is like a fucking full-time. But the same, like you, you can experiment with it part-time because the risk is not as high. That's true. The risk is not as high. But like if you're not financially dependent on it too and you feel like you're over the other stuff and if you keep doing it and you're going to burn out, go the other way. Okay. That's what I would say. And then are you mentally strong enough to go through those? Like how the hell do I sell this very art level work that is like gallery level? And

45:20maybe it's galleries. Maybe that makes more sense. Like your stuff looks better on a pedestal and it makes the most sense for that. I think the best, also the best learning experience you could probably have is spending the money and applying to one of those fancy shows and just going all in for one time more as a research and development. When you say show, do you mean an exhibition or do you mean, oh, like an art show? Yeah. Like, yeah. Fancy art show. Yeah. Like a fancy art show. Like, I don't know, where do you live? Massachusetts. Massachusetts. So like apply to the Smithsonian

45:52show. Apply to like different shows that are out there that are close to you that are like maybe $800 to apply and like save up for it, but like do it. And then while you're there, walk around and look around and see what people are doing and ask people questions. Yeah. Okay. Thank you so much. Thank you. All right. There's a couple right here. Oh no. And one on that side. You guys didn't say you

Question from Jenna

46:16were going to have questions and then you saved it. We got 13 minutes. Oh, we got 13. Okay. Hi. So we're all from, uh, Berry college in Georgia. Um, and I was just curious, like when you're starting out your business or when you guys specifically started your businesses, what was the hardest lesson that you learned?

46:39The hardest lesson to have good weights on your tent? I'm sorry, but that really was the hardest lesson. Yeah. I'll tell you my hardest, my actual hardest. Yeah. I mean, I don't, I think my standards of the quality of pot that like I save every single piece that I make, like, like I find it hard to just throw things away. So at some point I will test it and stuff, but, um, after the lesson though, hard lesson to be

47:11like, you don't have to be so attached to every single, every single pot, but you see this slow evolution over time, but, um, I don't know. I feel like might have a comeback to me. Okay. I'll talk cause I got a lot of those. Okay. There's a couple ones. He actually has done really well. I say that he's been successful his whole life, but he's like really calculated. So he doesn't make a lot of mistakes. Um, but, uh, my biggest lesson was to, uh, I, unfortunately and fortunately for me,

47:42my first contract was with Starbucks. And so, um, my biggest lesson was that I need to have a contract when I get into big corporation situations, I need to hold my ground. And, um, also like you have to realize that the people you're working with are also humans. Like, even if you're working with Starbucks, you're still working with somebody who lives in a regular house, goes to job every, like a regular job every day, and they don't know anything and you don't know anything. That's a big,

48:16big thing. So I think that that was one of the biggest lessons that I fortunately learned quickly. And also I think the very first show that I did, like really, truly the very first show that I did was like in this, it was in a convention center in the Tacoma dome in Washington. And it was like $800 for the booth. It was not the show I should be doing. And it was awful. And I needed to start

48:48small, but that, what that did for me was it showed me like what I actually need, like any shelves. Right in the fire. Yeah. Like put you, so you can do, you know, you can go through life two different ways. You can go straight into the fire, which is usually unfortunately how that happens to me, or you can calculate and move through life. So, um, yeah. So like, that's probably what I would say. Start like, start slow and move, move up. And also honestly though, have the right weights on your tents because I don't know, you probably don't know, but my very first

49:22show, my very first outdoor show, I lost 90% of my product because my tent flew away and my shelves like broke. So because of the wind. So, and she had to make it for the next weekend. She had to make all the product to fill her booth the next weekend. And so, and I had a really great support system, so they helped me out. But I remember texting my mom being like, happy Mother's Day, all my shit broke. So, yeah. There's one right here.

49:52Hey, so I'm also a college student. Um, Hi.

49:58How do you, I'm not in a business yet, and I'm not sure. How do you get from my friends and my family support me and love me too? I want strangers to like my work. I think that, like, how do you get from point A to point B, like, point A to point B and getting from like, all right, I have this really great following and support system of my family and friends, but I don't want them to just be buying my work because they love me and they

50:30like me. I want strangers to like it too. Like, how do you get there? I think you have to be vulnerable and be willing to sign up for shows and getting in front of people and just be open that like something positive is going to come from it and just go in with a positive mind so that you know what you hope you're going to get from it and you know that it's going to like, you're going to be awkward. You're not going to know how to talk to people. You're not going to know how to display your work in the best way it should be. You don't know if the pieces they're going to sell or if they're the pieces that people even want. But I think that's the best way to just organically grow it very

51:03slowly. Yeah. That's, that would be my suggestion. I would say, where are you? Where are you? App State. What? App State. Sorry, Appalachian State. That's Boone, North Carolina. Oh, well, the pottery capital of the world. I would say start at a farmer's market. I know that seems really simple, but if you can find something that's $25 to sign up, if you, if you show up with a table. A lot of them are low commitment. Like you can contact them within a week or so. I

51:34mean, Becca's probably contacted them like two days before. Oh, for sure. But if you show up with like a table that doesn't even have a tablecloth on it, they're like, eh, it's fine. And honestly, if it's a beautiful day, you don't even need a tent. Yeah. Because that'll slowly, especially since you're still in school, that'll slowly like build up your confidence into selling things. And then you can start like moving towards things. I think, I think big, too big, too fast where like I've heard of my friends who sell at farmer's markets, like almost exclusively. And they're like, well, I have insurance with these, like, because some places require insurance for

52:04farmer's markets and some places require certain colored tents. And I was like, I don't really have money to start there. I don't know how to start in that sense. Yeah. Also, you could also borrow some of those materials from people that hopefully you made some connections of like, hey, my professor, do you have a white tent that I can use on Saturday for four hours? Yeah. And I'll bring it back on Monday. Yeah. There's places out there that you don't have to have that stuff. Okay. And if you do, you can buy a one day insurance and see how it goes. Yeah.

52:35ACT insurance is a good single day option. Ace insurance, right? I did not know one day insurance has existed. Oh, yeah. ACT insurance is the thing. Yeah. One day insurance for shows exist, by the way. And it's cheap. But most places don't offer you that. But do buy good weights. Or don't need the tent at all if it's beautiful. Thank you. There's one on the far side over here. Oh, wait for the mic. Wait for the mic. Oh, yeah. She's saying don't quit. Be persistent. Like, keep going. Don't get discouraged because you don't sell anything that one day. The first time you go, it's going to suck. But I'm sorry if I missed this.

53:09I missed the first part. But I was wondering if you had any information about like the sustainability of hiring people, like trying to get help in your studio to help you produce more. But at the same time, you're the outlay for all that. I don't know if you guys work with that at all.

53:25I've paid assistance over the years. Have you had some assistance? I mean, I've had employees. Yeah, I think the way that I approach it, I mean, I'm not having, I'm not having assistance doing ungodly number of hours, like they're working 20 hours a week or anything like that. Like, Erica works four hours minimum, maximum eight hours. And I produce thousands of pots a year. She's right in the middle. You can talk to her. We're still talking, but I just wanted to show you. But yeah, the way I do it is I prioritize what effort my time needs to be. Like, I have a limited

54:01number of time to do what I do. So my value is in doing the things that I can only do. And that like keeps the standard of my product where it is. So the easy things off the list are prep clay. Somebody else prep clay for me. I haven't prepped clay in like three years, four years. That's why he doesn't have carpal tunnel. I still feel it a little bit in my hands from throwing, but because I'm very tight. And then, you know, like making glazes. Obviously, that's a risk because somebody fucks up a bucket of glaze. It's happened.

54:32That's happened to me, but it turned into a great glaze. It's like you can grow through that, right? You can you can hopefully risk and it's it's OK. But if you're making it for a whole community studio and you ruin shelves and glaze and like but I'm very calculated in like testing it and, you know, here's a recipe. Can you follow the recipe? Maybe walk. It feels so, you know, like you're babying them because you're walking through it so simply. But if you have somebody that you trust that is detailed enough and you trust them to do that. But I've also had people do that. And then I'm like, you know what, I you know, I might not want you to do that. And and I either you

55:08know, I've had two assistants at one point at the same time because I didn't want to say no to one of them. And we made it work. And you pick and choose what skills make sense for those people. And, you know, maybe some people are good at just, you know, prepping clay or stamping boxes with your branding or bags or my wife packs a lot of my pots to go out now. So pack and ship. I think you just have to tailor it to what their skills are. And it's it's really hard to find the right people, too.

55:39I think that I was talking to Kelly over at Speedball about having employees and stuff kind of. And she said that, you know. It really matters if they're willing to work hard and if they have a good personality and if they're good humans and things are trainable. After that, everything can be trained, you know. And so I think that those and coming from like hiring people and managing people, that's very true. And so. And I don't like

56:11it depends on how you get those people from like. And it could be somebody that's like they just want a side thing to get themselves out of something they're doing and they just want to do something for three hours a week or four hours a week and they just want. Reach out to colleges, see if they have anybody. And because colleges have a lot of programs for that type of stuff. But I think that they don't even have clay. They don't even need clay experience in some. Yeah, really, truly not. When Gravesco is hiring people, they didn't want you to have clay experience because once

56:44we did, they were like, well, I can do this. And we're like, we don't want you to do that. We would like you to do it our way, you know. And we would tell them we need you to act like you know nothing about clay right now while I train you in this. And they're like, well, what if I do this? I don't want you to do that, you know. And so I think it's really good to actually have somebody that doesn't. And but really look at their personality and their their work ethic. Yeah, I think some people have done little trial periods where you do it for a week or seven day period or two week period and you kind of try it out

57:18and say, I will pay you for the trial period. This is what we're committing to for now. And then we'll kind of reassess and see, you know, where your skills lie and if I feel like you're a good fit for this or not. That might be that might give you an out as well, because otherwise you kind of got to fire quickly otherwise. And it's tough to fight. I mean, I've never had to do that, but yeah. Well, OK, we have two minutes. So we're somebody back there. Hi there. I want to ask, how do you define success for yourself as an artist? Like

57:48what's your maybe like your I made it moment when you were like, finally, I'm a successful artist. I just want to ask because like I have work for sale here in the gallery and I still question like, oh, did I am I an artist now that I make it? Am I that guy? Because I'm settling here in the Expo Center or, you know, I still question it, even though I'm making all these steps in my career. Do we before I answer that, do we have anybody after us? Like what's. Yeah. Yeah. You can wrap up. OK. Five minutes. OK. For me, just short and

58:21sweet. What I offer what I think of as success, I think that it matters not what any other people think of you. What you feel like your successes matters. For me, that looks like me paying my car bill or my house, my house payment every month. That's what that looks like. And for me to live, I I will be successful if I make thirty thousand dollars, you know, and if I like the stuff that I'm working at working with. I think that you are not successful if you're

58:56working yourself too hard and you end up burning out. That's what I don't think is successful. And but I think that success in our society is extremely overrated. And whatever you're doing to get by and to be the best person that you can be. Is what like like it's great that you have stuff in the gallery. It's also great if you don't, you know, and like

59:29but if you're selling and you're making and you're happy, that's. That's the three things that I think you need. Yeah, I think it's best to gauge yourself based on where you were yesterday. Are you moving in a direction that you want to be moving in? Are you progressing? Are you are you challenging yourself? And do you feel like, yeah, I think it all goes back to you. Like, I don't think other people should define whether you're successful or not. It's up to you. Are you you know, you apply to shows and you don't get it like I've

1:00:02get directed. I keep getting denied from this one show like over and over. And I'm like, I'm going to persist. I'm going to get in this show. This year he was like, got denied again. He didn't even have to say the show. But. But yeah, I'm like, it's a personal challenge for me. And it's I think it I think you have to set those goals for yourself and push yourself to be. And I think the goalpost is going to change like the success for you might have been to get in the exhibition and you got it. OK, what's next? Yeah, what's next? What are you going to do next? What do you want to do? Answering question, right? Because

1:00:35you're like, like and you get to decide you get to decide, OK, my next thing is could be a month from now or it could be a year from now. My goal is this thing that I would like to get a year from now. But you don't have to have it so tied to it. I'm going to add one thing that my mom always says, she says, and I think this applies to everything in life. She says, because I'm always like, oh, I don't know if I can ask that person if I can stay at their house. And she says, if somebody asked you if you could

1:01:05stay there, you're like if they could stay at your house, would you say yes? And I'm like, oh, yes, absolutely. Why would you assume anything else from somebody else? And I think you need it like we need to ask ourselves, like if somebody came up to us and said, bro, I just got into this gallery. You'd be like, wow, that's freaking cool. Why would you assume anything else for yourself? Right. Yeah.

1:01:32Thanks.

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