15: Making it work: The Modern Studio Potter

Introduction to NSEKA 360

0:00Welcome to NSEKA 360, a podcast that amplifies and uplifts the voices of the ceramic community. I'm Edith Garcia for the National Council on Education for the Ceramic Arts. Visit nseka.net to learn more about how membership cultivates a clay community and shapes content and opportunities for the field. Follow us on Instagram and Facebook for the latest information about NSEKA.

Guest Introduction

0:30Hello, this is Rhonda Willers. I'm the past president of NSEKA, and I'm happy to introduce this week's NSEKA 360 podcast. Today we are featuring a conversation with Carol Epp, Naomi Clement, Diana Adams, and Sarah Pike about their approach to making a living as a potter in the digital age. Each of these three trailblazing artists has figured out how to make a living as a full-time potter on their own terms. From sold-out online shop updates to setting up a

1:05virtual school and membership platform and working on major brand collaborations, they discuss the process of running a creative business. Special thanks to the Kiln Sitters and the Brickyard Network for co-producing this episode and supporting podcasting in the ceramics community. If you enjoy this podcast, please support NSEKA's programming by donating at www.nseka.net backslash donate.

Challenges of Being an Artist

1:31We live in a time where it's getting exponentially more difficult to pay the bills and survive financially as artists. And this is, some of us are Canadians, we've gone American, it's across the board. I'm sure it's international. Today our objective is to explore three distinct pathways towards fostering sustainability for contemporary potters. Most of us have been brought up into this idealized narrative of the studio potter working away humbly in their home studio, living out in

2:06nature. Potentially we've got our own clay digs nearby, you know, it's, you know, utopia. Ideally we also wanted this abundant community, hard work and practical living. They feed the soul and they allow for sustainability. Where we're fortunate to have an array of community studios, although more are always welcome, not vibrant online community in support of real life networks. While these resources are offer considerable advantages for cultivating an artistic career, the prevailing economic landscape

2:37often renders traditional markers of financial security such as mortgages, savings and retirement investments unattainable. Skyrocketing rents, volatile mortgage rates, we're painting kind of this grim picture of doom and gloom, but I feel like a lot of the people that I've even talked to in the last couple days were all feeling that. A lot of people have said to me they came here to sort of get good positive energy again. So let's focus on that. With strategic forward planning, goal setting and accountability, which these ladies are going to talk about, there's a multiple ways in which you can

3:09build a sustainable livelihood. And we're joined by three innovative women who will share valuable insight to navigating the successful pottery business. Rest assured our discussion will not dwell solely on accounting. We're not going to go into that. Well, we might go into numbers, but no math is involved. We're aiming today to infuse this with an enthusiasm, inspiration and ideas for you all to go back into your own communities and move forward and build your own dreams. All right. So first, we're going to

Sarah Pike Introduction

3:43start with the intros. Naomi? Oh, Sarah first. There's my slide. Can you hear me? Hello, everybody. Thank you so much for coming. So good to see your faces out there. My name is Sarah Pike. I'm a full-time potter in Fernie, British Columbia, Canada. Fernie is located on the traditional territory of the Tunaha and I feel very grateful to work, work, play, and what else do I do there? Live there.

4:14I could have filled in a lot of my answer.

Diana Adams Introduction

4:17Anyways, like I said, I'm a full-time potter for some reason. I feel like I need to say that. So many people still ask me, are you a hobby potter? Is this something you do on the side? But no, I mostly am making pots. I do teach some workshops, but mostly I make my income from selling pottery. The first little part on that slide there talks about sole proprietorship. I'm not sure if that's an international term, but where I'm from, it basically means that I am the only person, the one and only in my business. I do have an assistant that comes in sort of six hours a week

4:50to help me with odd jobs, unloading a kiln, hugging clay kind of thing, but mostly it's just me doing all the little bits that it takes to be a potter. The other part that I wrote there is that I see it as a lifestyle, lifestyle business, I guess. Why I wanted to specify that is that I don't see it as a nine-to-five. I see it as something I'm dreaming about. It's something I get up in the morning, I go out and make some handles, and then I'm taking the dog for a walk, and then I'm coming back in.

5:21My studio is at home, so it's very integrated into my life, and that's probably not something that a business person would recommend that you do. There should be boundaries between your business and your lifestyle, but for me, it is my life. It's the community that I'm in. It is the creative part, and I don't see myself looking forward to retirement. It's a thing that I imagine will always be a part of my life. Business-wise, it's maybe not the ideal way to go, but that's how I

5:56do it. I moved to a small town, that small town, 14 years ago, and we bought a property on the edge of town, and we thought, this is a tourist town. People are going to come in here, and I'm going to have a little hut at the end of the driveway, and people are going to buy my work, kind of like that ideal sort of picture that Carol painted for us, and here we are 14 years later. I still don't have that because even though I'm in a town of 5,000, we have the internet, and I've been able to access this incredible community and audience through that, so we're going to talk a little bit more

6:29about that later, but that's me. Diana. Hi, everyone. My name is Diana Adams. I am the owner of Sample House. I pretty much make home decor, dope home decor that's inspired by bright colors, patterns, and texture. I'm always interested in trying to stand out, have my work stand out, mostly just for myself. A lot of people always ask, like, what inspires you? Like, stuff that

7:01I like inspires me. Like, I don't really go into, like, full concepts and have these full in-depth stories behind my work. I like color. I like cuteness. I like sexy, and that's what I make. So pretty much I started my business in 2019. There's a whole path. We'll go in depth of, like, where it started, but I graduated in art studio, so I'm a painter, sculptor first.

7:32Ceramics was, like, a side, was an elective that I just fell in love with, and when I graduated, I didn't know how to make it work. I didn't know how to make any kind of artwork after graduation, and so I got into retail, and I took this whole tumble, like, 12 years of getting back into my art, and it's pretty much just seeing other people do it. I think that was, like, the main thing. I didn't see live, living people working as artists, but when you, where did I see

8:02it? I started working for an interior design company, and so that's when I started seeing working artists, working, making furniture, making wall covering, glasswork, ceramicists, and I'm just like, oh, you guys are, like, vendors, but you're a really artist. So they start off as artists, and then you eventually work up to having a business name, having a website, having a catalog, having employees, and so just seeing that in front of me and seeing people do it, you just copy it, and so I'm like, okay, I'm going to start my business. I don't know

8:36what I'm doing. I'm going to get my business name. I'm going to start a website. I was on Etsy, you know, and so you just start following other people who were before you, and here I am now, and so we'll get into, what else did I put on there? Instagram marketing. We'll get into some Instagram and marketing. Outsourcing and help, I do everything myself. I do have a family that helps me with a lot of things, like my mom. My cousin helps me, like, with packing. My sister, I get my

9:09niece and nephew. I get the whole family in there to help, but I don't have, like, a paid assistant. I do need one, if anyone is interested, or a volunteer first, and then we'll work into a paid, but, yeah, what else I have in there? That's it.

Naomi Clement Introduction

9:31Awesome, and I did want to say, too, there's going to be a QR code at the end of this presentation. It just sort of goes on a loop with images that goes to a resource page on my website that has extra info, PDFs, and things, so check that out when you see it come up on the page. So, I'm Naomi Clement. Pronouns are she, her. I'm a full-time artist and creative entrepreneur based out of Stratford, Ontario, Canada. I figured I'd just share a little bit of background about me that I think is relevant to our conversation today. I've actually worn a lot of different hats in my career,

10:04both career in clay and outside of clay. You know, I've, in my ceramics career, I've apprenticed with potters. I've, you know, taught at the college and community class level. I've taught workshops, presented at conferences, you know, worked on boards, written articles, participated in residencies, and made and sold my own work and, you know, now run a business, and I also, which a lot of folks don't know, in a past career, I sort of had a hiatus from clay. I worked in luxury sales and marketing, which honestly was really great training for being a full-time working artist in terms of,

10:38like, sales and marketing is a huge part of what I do and how I promote my work. But these days, like, a huge part of my business is running a virtual school, essentially. I, you know, I teach everything from straightforward how-to classes, like how to make a kick-ass handle, to a longer five-month finding your voice mentorship program to help other artists find their voices. I have a membership program as well, which is, like, a monthly thing. It's sort of, I think of it as, like, a community, virtual community clay studio. But my favorite course to teach is always my

11:12professional practices, a boot camp for artists course, because that's, I always say, it's like, I teach you everything I wish I'd known when I was first starting out. If you told me four years ago that I was going to get through the pandemic, like, I remember when Richmond and Zika was canceled and I was freaking the fuck out because I just got in a house. I had all my whole year lined up of workshops that were 50% of my income. And I was like, how is this going to happen? And if you told me then

11:44that I would get through it by teaching ceramics virtually, I'd have literally thought you were insane. Um, and, but it was definitely the silver lining of COVID for me in that, you know, I, I love being able to work with and help artists from all around the world. And I basically built the teaching job that I wanted and couldn't get an academia and I don't have to grade anyone. So, um, you know, and I just, I love being able to help artists from around the world, make better pots and get ahead in their careers. And I, these days I'm kind of on a bit of a mission to change the way society and

12:16artists value the arts and debunk the myth of the starving, depressed artists. I don't know about y'all, but I make better pots when I'm fed well. So I'm really excited to chat about this with everyone. Yes. I'm going to go through a bunch of questions for each of them. We're going to go through some of the projects and stuff, and we are going to try and keep it condensed enough because I'm sure there's like maybe one or two of you here that might have questions afterwards. So

Imposter Syndrome Discussion

12:43let's get into this. The first question I have is, I mean, I'm sure nobody understands like imposter syndrome, right? But I'm curious with the three of you, what, at what point looking back on your career, was there like this moment where you sort of locked in and you found yourself saying like, yeah, this is me. This is what I'm here for. This is what I'm meant to do. And this is what I want to do for a living. And like that confidence, this breakthrough confidence moment where you're

13:13like, I'm transitioning to full-time and that's it. Like we're, we're doing it, giving it my all.

13:20Okay. For me there, yeah. Imposter syndrome. Hello. Um, it was probably the most specific point for me was I had a studio in my basement at home and I decided to try and get a loan, took out that loan and built a studio, a separate space on our property. And it felt so scary to do because uh, yeah, the imposter syndrome, can I do this? Am I worthy of this? And built this beautiful space to

13:52make pottery. And, and it is like almost a daily affirmation when I walk in there that this is what I have committed to, this is my life, this is what I'm going to do. Um, it's like it daily gives me the confidence to keep going. So taking out the loan, making that commitment to myself and my career was, was probably my moment. Imposter syndrome is so real. Um, for me, when I knew that I was like ready to start selling my stuff, I guess it's like more of like a self-confidence thing. So like with

14:26markets, for example, when I thought, when I would visit certain markets, I thought that these were people who had like established businesses, like you would see like the coffee makers and, um, cookie makers and bakers and ceramic artists. And I, I would think that these are like professional people with like real businesses. And then when you start talking to them, you're just like, oh, you're just a regular old schmojo and you're just making pots. I'm just like, okay, I can do that. And you just sign up and then you just present yourself. And so just seeing that and just, um,

14:58that just really like just motivates you or it motivated me. And so, you know, you get started, you start taking pictures of your, your work and you just start putting yourself out there. Um, and y'all, a lot of people who know me, like it's, it's scary. Like when I post stuff, like I'm an introvert, it's scary when I like post stuff and like showing your face and, and going live. Um, but it's very important to like just put yourself out there or else no one's going to know you. No

15:29one's going to, going to see your work. How are you going to sell yourself if you're not putting yourself out there? The reason why I got these, um, connections like with West Elm is because they saw me on line or on Instagram, or maybe they were like looking through hashtags, black owned businesses, where they were like trying to, you know, promote more black owned businesses. Just because I put that hashtag on there, they were able to find me. So, and then when I got that email, I'm just like, West Elm, is this fake? Is it spam? Like I literally

16:01thought it was spam. I'm just like, they want me? Like I'm just a little black girl in the hood. Um, but I'm just like, okay. So I'm like, okay, I got to own that. Let's put on that hat of like, I'm a kick-ass artist and let's be like, yeah, West Elm, sure. I would love to work with you guys. I'm just like, ah! But it's, it's insane. And you just keep showing up. You keep making your work and you just like, you just own it. And eventually you just keep owning it and just, it'll just keep

16:32working for you and growing. Yeah. I feel like there've been a ton of small moments, sort of cumulative moments for me where I owned it. I think the first big one was, you know, I, I tried really hard for a long time not to be an artist. Um, I, you know, when, when I worked in sales and marketing, that was me like, okay, I'm not going to be able to make a living being an artist. I'm going to go and make a living, you know, doing something else. And I wasn't making that much money at that either. And like living in Toronto as a single woman, it was like expensive. And I was like, if I'm going to be miserable, like, and not making much money, I might as well be not making

17:06much money doing what I love doing. And like, I, you know, didn't have a partner or kids, you know, and I was like, okay, I'm going to go back to grad school. It's sort of a, was a now or never moment for me. And then I think the other big one was in the pandemic when again, like everything I'd worked so hard for just got canceled literally like overnight. And I was, you know, in lockdown in my house, like, oh my God, how's this going to happen? And how am I going to pay my bills? I was a new homeowner. Um, and just freaking out. And I

17:40remember thinking of, you know, going to get a job at the grocery store and, and sort of looking at what those jobs were paying per hour. And I was like, you know what, I can figure out how to make like $15 an hour. Like surely I can figure that out. And I'm, I'll regret not trying. Um, and like betting on myself or like what Diana was saying too, and Sarah, like betting on myself has always been the best investment and like the best choice I've ever made and just sort of going for it. And you can always get the grocery store job later if you need to, right? Like, um, and then in terms of

18:12imposter syndromes, I've been trying to reframe that for myself in terms of when I'm feeling those moments of like imposter syndrome, that that's actually just me reaching for more. It means I want more than what I currently have. And so like trying to reframe that as in like, oh, it means I'm stretching for more. It's a good thing. All right. So this following question is not about judging

Organization and Planning

18:33anyway, anybody, but we want to frame this conversation going forward. So I'd like to know on a scale from one to 10, if 10 was I'm super organized and I thrive in spreadsheets and planning apps to the one being like taxes are in a shoe box under the bed and things are always coming together somehow by the deadline. Just so we know personality types before we get into the nitty gritty. Do you guys see that clip of RuPaul? It was a RuPaul interview and he was talking about being an introvert masquerading as an extrovert. I read that resonates with me, but the other part of

19:10that resonates is I feel like I'm a messy disorganized person masquerading as a tidy organized person. So I'm always trying to find like the little loopholes to make things easier, you know, because I'm so just like, so I am probably whatever the lowest end of the scale is for organized. The shoe box. I'm a shoe box. Yeah, for sure. I'm a number one, too. I'm for sure number one. Like I, when I think of like retail, like planning stuff, like a year in advance, I'm like, okay,

19:40Valentine's Day is coming up. I should make something for Valentine's Day. It is literally February 1st. And I'm just like, but how am I going to take the pictures? And I should have already had it done by now. I'm like, oh, well, I'll do it next year. The next year comes around February. I should make something for Valentine's Day. Next year. Yeah. Number one.

20:03I think I'm probably, in reality, I think I'm probably like a seven. But I feel like a four to three or a four. But I think I'm not bad. I think you're a nine. I think so. Maybe even a ten. Maybe even a ten. Are there emails to keep us in track? You're like, click this link and fill out this. I'm like, wow. I'm so organized. All right. Let's just focus in on each of you individually for a little bit here. So Sarah, we're going to start with you. We do really have a very little

20:36time. So I'm just going to skip any gritty. You have met skills with online sales. We'd love to have you walk us through how you manage that aspect of your business. And I have to warn you, Sarah's part of this make and do group that we have. And we do online sales. We have a Wix website. And she crashes at any time we have a sale. We don't like her. She can literally.

20:58Sarah is known. She can sell the same cup four times in less than a minute. So this is why we're going to focus on this with her. Yeah. I know. I'm taking notes. Yeah. It's applaud worthy. So walk us through how you manage that aspect of your business. Are you able to also maintain stock and relationships with other galleries? Or do you find that you sort of, like I've talked to other artists and they're like, oh, I don't send mugs anymore. I only send other bigger pieces to galleries because the mugs are the easy sale or those types of things.

21:29How do you sort of keep those relationships with galleries going? How do you keep the marketing fresh, relatable? And also how do you create that necessary connection between the image online and getting them to actually, not just put it, because we all put like a million things in our shopping carts late at night, right? Right? Okay. But what's, how do you get them to push that button to go that much further? That's a lot of questions. I know. Okay. Starting off on that QR code that we were talking about earlier, there is a link to

22:03Naomi's website. And on that website, there's a PDF called something like how to, how I online sale or something like that. So you guys can check that out as a PDF. And it basically lists like, it has a calendar, a marketing calendar. It has a list of the different platforms that I use. And my caveat is that that is always changing. This is how I do it right now. Last year, I did it differently because the platforms are always changing. Instagram algorithms are changing. The way my website works is changing sometimes. You know, there was a couple years ago when

22:35Instagram crashed and we were like, oh my God, how am I going to tell everybody I have a sale? And so I started doing newsletters late to the game. But all of those things are hard to manage. And if there is someone from one of my galleries out there, I'm sorry, because I'm not very good at maintaining those relationships. But I do want to maintain those relationships because as much as I am so grateful to sell things online, I also want people to be able to walk into a gallery and discover the work by

23:06hand, like be able to pick it up and stuff. So that's one of the big reasons why I like to show in a gallery. The other reason is because those relationships, they're speaking to a different audience as well. And I like that. And also, if you wanted to apply for a grant, you can't just say, I have a successful online store. That's probably not going to get you anywhere. So it feels professional as well to have a show. So I like the ideas of the parameters of maybe picking a theme

23:37for a show and working towards that. It takes me out of my normal making or, you know, you can just get into production mode. So it can take you onto a creative tangent. So those are some of the reasons why I still do shows, even though I can sell everything that I make currently online, which I'm super grateful for. My studio is set up in a way that has two large tables. I think you can see it there in the middle. Maybe it's all boxes, actually, in those pictures. But I have two large tables in the middle. I'm a slab builder. So when I'm making, all of the work is getting made on those

24:11tables. And then the last BISC happens and clean the studio. And I start turning into a glazing space. And then the last firing happens. And then I'm cleaning the studio again. And I'm turning it into a packing and shipping space. And so my studio transitions. So I, for me, having an online sale where I put all the work up at once and schedule and market towards that day means that I'm not constantly, like I said, I'm not an organized person. For me to do all the tasks of making, glazing, shipping, and fulfillment all at the same time, I would not function. So for me, having an online

24:46sale in this sort of rhythm, this cycle, is what works best. But yeah, there's a lot in that PDF. So if you want to see more details about how I do it and the schedule, check that out for sure. Do I have more time? I have a question. Yeah, you have more time. How do you, how long do you, like from the day that you take your pictures, when do you actually have your sale from when you start showing your, your finished pieces, like and start marketing the sale? That's, that's a great question. So usually I have a few kiln loads at a sale. My goal

25:17is like a hundred to 150 pieces in the sale. So that's a few kiln loads. So I start taking photos of the first load that's coming out. And also there's photos of work in progress throughout. And then once I feel like, okay, this kiln, you know, at least I have one kiln load that's, that's, I'm happy with that. I feel like I can sell that. I, that I'll start marketing it. It's usually the, it's probably two weeks before the sale that I start really like announce that I'm having a sale and start promoting it.

25:48Minus like two days before. Out the kiln. Y'all want to buy it? I used to do that. And now, like, like I said, I'm so grateful that things do sell out quickly, but now I can do so much prep before. So if I can get all the photos done, you know, say five, five days before I can have a preview gallery up on the website and I will actually do like the single box, like box, every pot in the inside box and put their skew numbers. Like this is not my

26:18wheelhouse, but put the skew numbers on all those boxes and they're all on shelves in order so that when I need to fulfill 150 pots out the door, I can just grab that box and stick it in the bigger box and stick the label on it. So it just helps me stay more sane. Well, this is me like masquerading as an organized person because like that, like after the sale's over, I'm like, okay, back to chaos. I think we're going to bump you up to a three or four though.

Online Sales and Marketing

26:44Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Now we're moving on. So before we leave you though, I want to ask you, like you talked about Instagram being, you know, like it went down and so it's like you ended up with a newsletter. Um, how do you now go forward? Do you have planning for the future? Do you have like contingency plans so that when curve balls come, you kind of are almost prepared for them or are you still sort of figuring it out as it hits you? I guess I'm, I guess I am sort of figuring

27:15it out as I go, but I do feel like, you know, you don't want to put all your eggs in the same basket like I was with Instagram. Like seeing there is still value in Facebook. It doesn't seem to be going anywhere. The email newsletter doesn't seem to be going anywhere. I don't have the bandwidth to do other more social media than, than that currently. But, um, yeah, I, I feel like, what was your question?

27:42How are you planning for curve balls? I don't plan for curve balls. I just hope they don't happen. I should have totally given you a random curve ball question. I was not on it. You can't, I don't think you can plan for curve balls, but I think you need to be adaptable. You know, you need to be willing to pivot that terrible word. You need to be willing to pivot and, and be like, uh, able to like creatively flow into different, different methods. Yeah. And it does, it has

28:13changed. Like COVID was a huge wake up call for that. I feel like it's about trusting yourself too, though. Like trusting yourself that, okay, I figured this out in the past. Like I have a good track record of figuring this out. I can figure it out again. I can do it. Yeah. But that takes time for sure. Yeah. All right. We're going to move on to you, Diana. When I follow you, all I see, I, it's one of your, your feet is one of the ones that it's just about joy. Uh-huh. You radiate joy. Yeah. We need more joy in the world. So I want to dig in with you this question about how to build

28:49the business around the life that you want. So with the state of things in the world these days, finding joy, even in the least enjoyable parts of your business is a key component of sustainability, right? All the things that, that drag us down, they impact the sustainability going forward. How does working collaboratively with brands such as West End fuel this personal creative practice that you can share? How not to sacrifice your vision to the client, right? Because there's a lot of that back and forth when you're dealing, right? Um, do you have cautions as well for artists when

29:23they're working for big brands? I'm going to ask you a bunch of questions all at once again, too. A lot of questions. So let's talk about joy. Yes. I'm pretty sure everyone's been in the boat where you're at work or you're, you're nine to five and you're like, I hate this place. Like, why am I here? Um, so I'm like, we've all, we've all been there. Um, but yeah, I've had several jobs where I'm just like, I hate my life. Um, but you know, deep down, like I have this talent that I could share,

29:55um, with people. Like, how do I get it out there and how do I make it work? Um, so how do I do it? I don't know. You just do it, but yeah, pretty much you are what I, what I did was just say, fuck it. I'm just going to do what I want to do. Like I want to wake up whenever I want to wake up. So my mornings are early to walk the dog, but I'll, I'll spend like an hour or two, like breakfast. Like I love breakfast. And then like after breakfast, it's like, okay.

30:27Say an hour or two for breakfast. Yeah. I am living my life wrong. Yeah. It's just like, I'll cook. And then I'm like, I'm watching survivor. Our love is blind. And I'm just like having my, um, voice, my little video chats with all my friends. And then it's like, okay, 11 o'clock, 12, that's when I start working. So usually like I'll start my, my day. So like, that's how I picture my life. And so you just kind of fold it and you do your bulk of work. Usually it's like late at night. I'm working like late at night. I enjoy my mornings. Um, but anyways,

31:01joy. Yeah. There's a lot of like hatred, a lot of hateful things out in the internet, out in the world. I like to use my art as like my, my peace and my safe space. And usually I'm listening to music, um, when I'm like throwing or working. And so I noticed like, this is before the whole Instagram boom, I'm like listening to music, usually Beyonce. And I'm just like, I'm singing, I'm dancing and I'm like recording myself. I'm just like, I should film myself doing this. Cause I'm like, people need to see like me and my element. And so I knew, I knew that I was

31:36having fun and I knew that other people might enjoy that. So I'm just like, okay, let's just, let's just, let's just put the camera out. Like I wasn't like trying to perform for the camera. I just put the camera out, not seeing myself as facing away from me, not just forgetting that it's there. It's just on record. I'm throwing multiple things. And so at the end, you can like chop it up and like just show the good parts, leave out the, the bad parts. Um, but yeah, just starting off slow and just showing people my joy and then getting other people involved,

32:09like, Oh my God, I'm so glad to see you doing this and that makes me feel even more confident to put more stuff up, um, into the world. And then I'm just like, okay, like what I'm, what I'm doing is sharing my joy with others. Like I'm obviously bringing people joy, which is lovely. And so I'm just going to continue and like, and focus on that. Um, what was your other question? Well, so yeah, I mean, so you, you're explaining how you foster that for yourself, but then West Dome comes and now you've got somebody who is attracted to your joy, attracted to your

32:41work, all of that. How do you, when you're going into those kinds of a collaborative sort of building of a, of brands or products, how do you make sure that that doesn't get pushed to the wayside and you stay at your core, what's important? Yeah, the first year. So the first time working with West Dome or maybe it's the same for all retail stores, they see your success and they want a piece of it. So I'm like, okay, I, I see that this is a great opportunity. Um, but I also see them as coming to take a cut

33:15of my paycheck. Um, so like, how can I use this? Like they're obviously using me, um, in a way, how can I also use them in a way for like marketing and getting new customers and still giving them something so that they're happy, but then also keeping things for myself so that I'm also happy. So when I first, the first round, like I didn't want to give them my yellow. I'm just like, you're not going to have my yellow. You can have white and you can have like, I gave them like gray and pink, which I wasn't doing on my shop.

33:49And it seems like West Dome was very like mod, you know, very like gray and, um, and peace. So I'm like, you're not going to get my bright colors. You can just have these colors. Um, and then they're like, well, what about like kitchen? We want you, we want you in bath. We want you in kitchen. We want you in bed, garden and all this stuff. I'm just like, that's a lot. And then like, I just started like formulating things or just seeing my, my, my long breakfast moments shortening. And then I'm just going to, it's going to turn

34:20into me working for West Dome rather than working for myself. And I didn't want that. So I'm just like, okay, I'm just going to limit, like you can't have all of my things. Like I can't just make everything that I'm making for my shop and make it for you. Um, so I'm like, okay, you can just have some planters and you can have bath accessories and that's it. Then like the next year I'm just like, okay, it's, it's selling. And then you start seeing that maybe like West Dome stuff starts selling more. So I'm not having like blown out, sell out shops on my website anymore. And so I'm just like,

34:51okay, West Dome was picking up, let's give a little bit more to West and give them more sizes, give them more colors. They now have a yellow. Um, so yeah. So you just started, you just start to balance. So now I have like real bills to pay for. This is now, I think I started with West Dome in 2021. Um, and now it's 2024. Jesus Christ. No, I started in 2022. This is my second year. I'm going on my third year with West Dome. Um, so yeah, last year I gave them a little bit

35:24more. This year I didn't give them anything new. They wanted more. Every year they want something more. I skipped this year. I'm just like, you guys have enough. It's like, it's sustainable. Like, okay, I have you where you, where I want you. Now I want to focus on what I want Sample House to be and how I want that to kind of grow before I can. So you just kind of like, you've got to divide and shift. Can I ask a quick question about that? So there are West Dome stores everywhere. Do you have work in all of those stores? Like how does that, how do you, oh, okay.

35:55Follow mine. So yeah, I'm not like mass producing things. Everything is made to order. So with West Dome, like the listings stay up. Um, so people can go on there and just order whatever they want. I'll get the memo. Okay. I need to make five large planters, some jars, some dishes, some spoon rest, and then I'll start making. And as I'm making more orders are coming in. And so now like I'm getting into a flow where I'll just make a certain amount of spoon rest over the amount that was ordered. And then as the order start coming in, I can now

36:26start painting the colors that they want because I have, I'm a hot mess when it comes with like business stuff. If I was smart, I would have one or two colors, one or two patterns. And to stick to that, that I have like all the colors. I'm just like red, blue, orange. You have all these different. Yes. That's like, that brings me joy. I like seeing all the colors together. I like seeing all the sizes together as a group. Um, but it also drives me crazy when it gets time to painting and carving. I'm like, okay, this group is white. This

37:01group is black. And I'm like, I'm carving this pattern over here. I'm carving, carving. This is slowing me down. It's driving me more crazy, but I also still enjoy it. Um, but yeah, I was wondering about that. Like if you feel like you get to a point where you're feeling like the machine and you're pushing through and if it stops you from feeling like you can just explore creatively. I mean, I did go through a moment in time where it was very repetitive. Like whenever a litter jar comes in, I'm just like, like, why do I have litter jars on there? Like I hate,

37:35like, I don't hate it. Like litter jars was like my thing when I was in school. It was like, it was my jam. Damn, I was going to go order one of those. Don't go order a litter jar. Um, so it's, it's tough. And now, now I use it as an opportunity to get better. I'm like, okay, these litter jars are coming in. How can I make it better instead of going like eye roll? I'm going to make a freaking litter jar. So like things are shifting. Like my work is shifting. It's getting better. So now like I look back at Oakwork and I'm just like, oh, I feel so bad for all the people who ordered it before. But like,

38:06yeah, like I just constantly always try and perfect it. I'm not in molds. I don't get crazy with them. Calipers. I mean, yeah, I don't get, some of the jars are whiter, some are taller, some are shorter. So they're all kind of shifting, uh, which I don't mind. Maybe certain people might mind, but I still keep doing what I don't. It's mine.

38:30I have a million more questions. We got to move on to Naomi because she's got all her knowledge too. Naomi, I've known for a long time. She's the most, one of the most pragmatic artists I know. You, have you always though been so grounded in the realities of the art business or is this sort of like you've been learning on the fly as you go and where do you find the inspiration and advice for the business side of things? Cause I know we've sort of talked about like business courses you've taken and stuff like that too. Yeah. So it's like 100% been a learn on the fly kind of thing. Um, COVID really

39:03forced me to launch ugly, um, which is a term often used in like the business world, you know, and encouraging people to like Nike, just do it, just like launch ugly, um, get it out there. And I, that's super against my nature. I'm, you know, real analysis paralysis kind of person and, um, can be a recovering perfectionist and, you know, want to get it all figured out right before I do it. But because, you know, with COVID and in the early days of teaching virtual workshops, I just, it was like

39:35super low tech. And again, I needed to earn income and, um, just sort of do it and figure it out. And I, you know, luckily I was also able to play to my strengths and that I had a lot of experience teaching already in person. And it was, I knew it was a skill I had and something that I liked. So I was able to sort of translate that to this new space, but, you know, I don't come from a family of entrepreneurs either. So it like, wasn't, I never thought I would be a business owner and you know, the way that I am now. Um, so it did feel really scary and kind of foreign, but it's

40:08also rewarding too. And that, you know, I think I got where I am now mostly by like following my instincts, um, as I said, playing to my strengths and just trying shit out and, you know, and getting help when I needed to, or when I hit a wall, um, in terms of either it's like a technical thing, I don't know how to do. Okay. I'm going to figure out how to either I figure out how to do it or I figure out how to get the money to pay someone to do it. Um, and I did, I was fortunate in terms of, you know, that the town I live in and COVID, they had some funding for like small business, like business

40:42starter thing. It was called, um, Stratford starter plus. Uh, and it was this small business thing. Uh, you know, you've got business classes sort of through the chamber of commerce. So I would encourage people to like look into all those opportunities and, and it was free business classes that I got and also ended up getting a small grant at the end of it. Um, which sort of gave me the confidence to start thinking about it as, as a business and embracing that business aspect of it. And, you know, I, I think other keys to what I, I was successful at, um, or helping me be

41:19successful rather, sorry, brain fart, um, was just sort of starting small and then like launching ugly and then building out from there. Like, and again, no matter how many times I think through something, um, and try and plan it perfectly, there's nothing like hitting launch or like launching a course or, or starting like, Oh, I didn't think about that part. Guess I got to figure it out now. And, and then you figure it out and, and just sort of starting and getting stuff out there and, and starting really simple. Like I had, it was very basic tech, very basic systems. When I

41:51first started, it wasn't complex. And then I just added things as I needed them and as I could afford them and then added help as I needed it and could afford it. Um, you know, and I think outsourcing is also something was a big mindset shift for me in terms of running a business. Um, and like that moment when I first hired a bookkeeper and I think it's like, again, playing to your strengths. I'm good at the sales and marketing. I'm good at the teaching. I'm good at the making. I'm not so great at the, like the bookkeeping is the thing that, and the tech stuff, it like, I

42:25will avoid it. I will like organize my sock drawer before I do that. Um, and, and my sock drawer is not organized. So, uh, you know, I realizing again, in the early days, I hired someone, hired a bookkeeper initially to like train me to do my own books. Cause it was like super foreign to me. And that felt really frivolous at the time. Like, Oh my gosh, I don't always make $30 an hour. Like how can I afford to pay someone else $30 an hour to do my book? You know, something I can't, you know, quote unquote can do myself. Um, same with my website and stuff like that.

42:58And, but then realizing like, I'm the only one generating revenue for my business. So the more things that I can do that generate revenue, the better. And that are in my wheelhouse and like play to my strengths. Um, and so by paying, you know, I love Diane, my bookkeeper, she's amazing by paying Diane $30 an hour. It then frees me up to make, make more work or teach more workshops or dig into the marketing more. And she also does it like 10 times faster than I do and is way better at it. And, you know, same with the woman who built my website and sort of helps me with some of my

43:31backend tech stuff. Like that stuff, I'll be in tears in like two minutes flat with some of those things. And she just like does it and does it well and quickly. And it's, it's super valuable. So I think it was, yeah, gradual. Um, but I listened, I read a lot of books. I listened to a lot of podcasts. Um, and then realizing when I was sort of hitting certain plateaus of like, okay, I know that more as possible, but I don't know how to get there. So like, who can I talk to who knows how to help get me there? And part of it was through the local

44:05chamber of commerce. Um, and then I ended up a big sort of scary investment for me, um, was hiring a business coach actually like two years ago. And, um, business coaches make a lot of money. Uh, and, but she paid for herself. Like it was through her help. You know, I'm, I'm a single entrepreneur, single homeowner, and it's having unpredictable income was just really stressful and anxiety inducing. And, and we worked on, um, a membership program. So like monthly, I

44:36have a paycheck y'all. Um, I, you know, I work for it every month and, but, you know, it's also this great community where I get to, you know, learn with other people and provide a service that's really needed in our community. Um, but provide some stability for my business and my life that has also like opened up huge possibilities for me. Like just taking away that, some of that stress of like, okay, how am I going to hustle again for next month? And, and having a little more predictability has, has helped a lot. And I wouldn't have gotten

45:08that without assistance of like business coach sort of helping me through it. Um, yeah. So do you, uh, this is a question for all of you. I mean, I've often had

Future Plans and Advice

45:20people say like, Oh, what's your five-year plan? What's your 10-year plan? Do you work in that way? Do you have a five-year plan? Where do you, where do you want to be in five years? I, I mean, I do, I actually do annual planning every year now. Um, and quarterly plan is through my business coach. It's like a, um, part of that fee. So I do annual planning in terms of things like that. Um, it's sort of looser. I, I, yeah, I have, I have dreams. I've, I've been seeing, um, Maya Rumsey building this

45:52beautiful studio in her backyard. I'm just like, I want that. I, my studio's in my basement. I'm very fortunate to, you know, have a great space, but some, you know, maybe saving towards something like that, having a bigger space, doing some more in-person. I love the virtual stuff, but maybe a space where I could have people in my studio for some in-person workshops, you know, that would be like big picture. And more joy, more vacation. I need beaches. I need Mexico city. Um, I need, but I do, I don't have like planned, like five-year plans and stuff

46:30like that, or 10-year plans. I do have like visions of how I see myself in the future. Um, maybe like I would love like to buy a home and then I like having my pottery studio at my home. But then also like if I was thinking about hiring people to work with me, I don't want people in my room. So then like, I'm still trying to like balance that out of like maybe having it be a little bit more separate, but nearby somewhere I can like walk to. Um, yeah, I never, I don't want to grow too big where

47:05I'm having all the employees like doing everything and I'm just doing, either I just disappear and I'm just like on vacation forever. I like, but I still, I still want to be hands-on. I still want to be the face of my business. Um, and maybe just have some assistance if maybe like one or two, maybe just handling the West Elm stuff. And then I can just focus on just doing all the, the fun stuff and the portraits and I do all kinds of stuff now. So just kind of keep it fresh and interesting for me and somebody else can

47:38do the West Elm. I got pregnant in grad school. So I went from learning to straight into motherhood and ended up just out of necessity, sort of taking a step back from making pots for a while. Um, my husband and I ran his family ranch and, uh, then the kids were, you know, all consuming. And, um, then when they were school age, then I was like in the studio and it was, you know, it's been a bit of a nose to the grindstone, but as awesome as it is, I haven't

48:11had a lot of time to, um, just really sit and explore without needing to sell that piece at the end of the month. So, um, looking towards doing maybe some residencies in the next little bit. Very nice. Yeah. All right. We're going to get to questions in one second here, but I want each of you to finish this sentence for me. I wouldn't be here professionally if it wasn't for Instagram, honestly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I live in a town of 5,000. Like I wouldn't,

48:44I wouldn't be here literally here if it wasn't for Instagram, you know, that connection to a larger community. So I would say Instagram and also like just following your gut and just believing in yourself. Super cheesy, but it's, it's true. It's the real deal. Yeah. Um, yeah, I guess, I, I think agreed like betting on myself, um, was a big part of it. I agree with the Instagram, although I think in my intro slide, it had, uh, don't build your business on borrowed

49:16land. Like Instagram and social media is borrowed land. I can't control it. So I've been focusing more on email marketing of late and shifting folks to theirs there. And actually I have a little, and it's on the resources page here, but you can also grab a postcard, um, which is like my top 10 professional tips that sort of talks, gets in a bit more to some of this stuff. But I think for me, it all really changed when, I'm sorry, this isn't one word answer, but, um, when I embraced the fact that, that I'm running a business, you know, like it's not my hobby. Um, and I'm not my customer.

49:50So like embracing the numbers believe and you know, whatever, all these words they put up in their house. My house has the word fail up on a shelf and it's fail to me stands for first attempt in learning. It's always about learning. Always. When you fail, that means you tried. So keep failing.

50:20Yeah. Thank you so much.

50:24So it's a little too loud. Um, so I've been on Instagram for a few years and it's been very, very slow growing. So I guess my question is about Instagram and how you actually leverage it. Cause there's a lot of people on there that are like, I made six figures in six months. Let me show you. And I'm like, that's just some of that is just bullshit. It is. It is. Don't give those people your money. I have not. Um, but there also isn't really much that I can find that's real help in

51:01growing. Everyone's looking at me. My following. I mean, like I wish that my, my numbers, like my 6,000, whatever it is now equates to dollars. It does not. Um, it helps like with working with vendors and like, and getting other kind of like sponsorships and stuff like that. But growing it, you just have to figure out like what your brand is. I think having like thinking of your Instagram is like, um, like a magazine, like it's curated in a way where like, don't make it look

51:36fake. It's, it's, it's still you. You're showing your work. You're showing your personality. Um, maybe like your branding colors. You can kind of see like your brand as you're scrolling through, like it's visually appealing and that just kind of draws people in. Um, your videos, you know, you have like your selling videos, you have like your, um, your catchy trendy stuff and you have your longer videos for like your, your real followers who are going to like sit and watch your longer videos. So you just have to like do a mix, look at other people that you, that you like

52:09as an inspiration and kind of like copy that and just kind of see what works. Do like troubleshooting, try different tags, try different audios, try do voiceovers and just kind of like see what works and see what like, or even like you can go to your views and see which video had the most views, do more of that and just kind of see, play with it. I think the one piece of advice too that I would, would add to that and is with social media, like I'd rather have, uh, you know, and I'm standing

52:42at a table with people who all have like a ton more followers than me and, but I'm, I've always been more interested in building. I'm not saying that they're not, um, like having followers that are engaged with what I'm doing and not just seeking number, like followers for followers sake. Like you don't, you know, Sarah has like 125,000 followers. Now I have just hit 25,000. We're both making a living at it. Um, and so it doesn't, you know, necessarily equate to, you know, five times the income because she's got five times the followers. Like I think it's, it's, what is it

53:17that you're wanting to be in that space for? And, and again, then translating it to an email list. Like I would focus more on the email marketing side of thing, cause then you can control it. Sure. I have 25,000 followers, but I can't, I can get locked out of it. The platform can go down. Um, and so building it so that it's sustainable for you and authentic to you and like your practice. And so that people are there because they're genuinely engaged in the content and are sticking around to like, cause they're want to learn with you or like, see what you're doing.

53:48Can I ask how large is your email list? Uh, uh, just under 5,000. Nice. Okay. We are really cutting it to the end here. So, um, we're going to do one more quick question. And then what I'm going to ask, I know I saw that disappointment. Don't please. Can the, can we meet with you out? Talk to us. We're going to go right out these doors and we will answer more questions. I just don't want to upset the next presenters. I'm so sorry. Okay. Last question. I feel honored being the last question. It better be good. Yeah. So I'm a first year potter. I

54:22just started. Um, but so I'm like well before even thinking about building a business, but like, like Diana, I'm obsessed with yellow. Um, how did you know you had the brand that you knew you wanted to then sell? How'd you know you made the thing that was purposefully you that you wanted to share with people? Because it made me feel good. Like I don't make stuff for other people. I make it for myself first. And if it's something that I

54:55would buy, then I'm like, okay, this is, this is it. Like, I don't know if you scroll all the way back down to like my very beginnings. I was making the litter jars with the same like, um, Afro patterns from the get go. And I'm still doing it now. And I'm like, that's my thing. And from that, it just kind of branched other things. But like, that's like my heart. Like I love patterns. I love color. That's, that's what I started with. And I'm still doing right now. Does that answer your question? Okay. Yeah, I would actually like to go deeper with

55:31yellow with you later. That's a side conversation. A little therapy. Yes, for sure. Like what is actually yellow? Uh, but yeah, just thank you. Thank you for your time. Thanks for your phone. Thank you all so much. And again, meet us outside the doors if you have more questions. Discover additional inspiring clay content and insightful conversations on our Instagram, Facebook, and the WatchNseka YouTube channel. Make sure to follow and subscribe to Nseka360 on your favorite podcast platform. Visit nseka.net to become a member and donate online to cultivate

56:07meaningful and accessible programming year round. Thank you for listening.

56:17Thank you.