S03E20 - Tom Carey // Inside Hangar 18

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Introduction to Lost Origins

1:44Hey, good morning, happy Monday, and welcome to this week's episode of Lost Origins. This week, it's just Andrew cruising solo, and we're really excited to jump in this week's episode with our special guest, Tom Carey.

2:19But before we jump into that, as always, we have to tip the proverbial hat to the homies over at InterTraditions and Barron Company. I know that we've been beating this drum something fierce from day one, but for real, if you guys have not checked out that website, it is well worth the visit and the session. It's intertraditions.com. They have tons of resources for you guys. It doesn't matter if you're into wellness, if you're into esoteric knowledge, you're into ancient mysteries, everything in between. Their library and catalog is deep as hell, and it's going to give you everything you need to jump down a rabbit hole for the rest of the week.

2:52So jump over there and just peruse that library. Pick up something. Let them know that your friends from Lost Origins sent you, and I'll be well in the world. So this week is going to be one hell of a conversation with our new friend, Tom Carey.

Tom Carey's Background

3:07Tom Carey is one hell of a guy, and he obtained his Ph.D. in anthropology from the University of Toronto. He's also an Air Force veteran who's held a top-secret crypto clearance. He has been a Mutual UFO Network, or MUFON, state section director for the Southeastern Pennsylvania chapter from 1986 to 2001. And him and his partner in crime, Donald Schmidt, who unfortunately is not going to be on the call, we're going to get him at a later date, have written droves of books that focus on all things extraterrestrials, UFO, Wright-Patterson, Roswell, and everything in between.

3:46Some of the books that these two have authored include UFO Secrets Inside Wright-Patterson, The Witness to Roswell, The Children of Roswell, The Roswell Incident, starting to see a theme there. And today we are going to be ripping through a ton of stuff with Tom. Specifically, we're going to be discussing their most recent book, UFO Secrets Inside Wright-Patterson. But we're also going to be talking about the events that began at Roswell and Area 51, which everybody's pretty familiar with. But how it ended at Wright-Patterson, which is an ultra-top-secret Air Force base in Dayton, Ohio.

4:21And so this was a talking point that I really did not know too much about heading into this conversation. It's pretty fascinating, though, that when we think of extraterrestrial encounters, you think of UFO incidents. Everybody's brain goes to Roswell, New Mexico, Area 51. Very few of us, I feel, you know, think Ohio.

Tom Carey's Interest in UFOs

4:40And so Tom really, really shed some interesting light on the situation, what's happening here, the cover-up conspiracies and everything in between. And he's going to take us down one ridiculous rabbit hole that ends at Hangar 18, which is something that I think everybody is going to really enjoy. So we're just going to queue up this Skype call and do the thing. Here we go.

5:11All right, Tom Carey, welcome to this week's episode of Lost Origins. We are very, very excited to welcome you to the show. Thank you for carving time for us today. It's my distinct pleasure, Andrew. I'm glad to be with you. Yeah, this will be a lot of fun, a lot of fun. Very much looking forward to the conversation. What I'd like to do is just kind of set the stage for today's episode. We always like to make sure that first-time guests on Lost Origins have the opportunity to hit us with their backstory, the 35,000-foot view, history lesson, whatever you want to call it. You have some pretty, pretty gnarly accolades here and background, and I would just like for you to walk our listeners through who is Tom Carey, right?

5:50What does the Daily Delta look like? What got you to this moment?

Tom Carey's Backstory

5:53Just kind of give us that backstory, Tom. Well, I was born and raised in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and graduated from Temple University, the Fox School of Business. And I joined the – I was a baseball player, football player, basketball player, and got an athletic scholarship to Temple University in Philadelphia, played mostly baseball.

6:26And I had a few offers from major league teams back then and turned them all down to further my education. And I joined the Air Force, got a top-secret clearance, top-secret crypto clearance. Super cool. And became – in the Air Force, I became interested in anthropology, physical anthropology to be more distinct, and got a master's degree while I was stationed at McClellan Air Force Base in Sacramento, California.

7:06And you got a master's in anthropology, followed it as far as I can with a – spent four – next four years in Toronto at the University of Toronto going for a doctorate, which I did not receive.

7:24I guess several factors factored in there. I was a big hockey fan, and as you know, Toronto's the cradle of hockey. Distraction capital for you right there, right? And we used to get four games a week on TV. We got the Maple Leaf games, the Buffalo Sabres games, and the Montreal Canadiens – that's how they pronounce it up there – the Montreal Canadiens game. So, we had an average of four games a week.

7:55I watched too much television. But, Andrew, I think that was all a cover for – at some point, I became over – oh, I just had this fear of failure. I was overcome by a fear of failure for getting my doctorate. I don't know why, but I just didn't – I completed my coursework, and I'm a field-type person. I like fieldwork, and I didn't have any fieldwork. My advisor there had a – the cadaver of an orangutan in her laboratory, and I'm just not a dissection – you know, a dissection-type person.

8:43So, that didn't work out for me.

8:47But, like I said, I do like getting out in the field, and I didn't have it there. But I was overcome by indecision and fear of failure. So, I was married. I got married in Sacramento when I was there in the Air Force, and my wife of 51 years is still with me. Awesome. And I have two children, a son and a daughter, and they're grown, of course. The son lives in Florida.

9:18The daughter lives in upstate New York. So, that's it in a nutshell. I became interested in UFOs as a teenager and read a few books, which are very interesting. But when the book called The Roswell Incident came out in 1980, I was blown away. I was blown away because we're not talking about lights in the sky.

Roswell Crash Investigation

9:48I was a MUFON state section director for a number of years, and most of those cases that I handled were, gee, I saw this light in the sky. It went this way and that way, and, oh, boy, tell me more, you know.

10:05Got tired of that. And having a background in anthropology and archaeology, in 1991, I became aware of these two fellows at the Center for UFO Studies in Chicago. Kevin Randall and Don Schmidt were reopening the Roswell matter because between the time of the first publication of the book, 1980, and by 1990, that was it.

10:41There was nothing in it. There was nothing more. But they were reopening the case, and I asked them what they had been doing about trying to find the group of archaeologists who allegedly stumbled upon the downed craft and bodies. And they said that they had basically done nothing. And since these archaeologists were from the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia, I said, well, look, I have a degree in anthropology at the University of Pennsylvania.

11:14It's just a little short train ride from Huntington Valley to Center City, Philadelphia. Let me have a crack at trying to find those anthropologists from the University of Pennsylvania. So that's how I became active in the investigation. That was 1991. I took my first trip with Randall and Schmidt to Roswell in 1993.

11:43And in 1990, and if you know much about the case, the golden year for the case was 1997, which was the 50th anniversary of it, of the crash. And there was wall-to-wall coverage on CNN and NBC and what have you of the 50th anniversary goings-on down in Roswell. And after that, most of the people that were involved in the case left the field.

12:16And so being a CUFOS member, CUFOS, as Don Schmidt was, I hooked up with Don in 1998 to continue a proactive investigation of the case. Because most of the other people involved, you know, Stan Friedman, Don Berliner, even Kevin Randall himself went on to other things.

12:50But I wanted to, as Don did, continue a proactive research of the case because we felt there was more to be learned. And Don and I took our first trip together as a team down to Roswell in the May of 1998. And we've been a team ever since. I think that's like 21 years or something like that. And we've written – I have to add them up.

13:20I think we've written – we've co-authored six or seven books on the subject. Right, right. The current one is called UFO Secrets inside Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Dayton, Ohio. That came out in June. We have another book coming out in between Thanksgiving and Christmas of this year. It's a coffee table picture-type book, which covers the entire case.

13:53It's called Roswell, the Chronological Pictorial. Oh, wow. And that will be out sometime between Thanksgiving of this year and December. I'm sorry, Christmas. Just in time for Christmas. Sure. And I personally – I like that book. It took me a while to put it together. And it's a picture with captions and a narrative of the entire timeline as we see it of the Roswell case.

14:26So you can look for that sometime between those parameters. We have another book, our last – what we believe will be our last Roswell book. It's already at the – it's already at the publisher's. It's called Roswell, the Ultimate Cold Case File, Closed. Roswell Closed. And it's our final book because everybody's dead.

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16:27We feel that we moved the case from the 50-yard line down to the 1-yard line. And the only reason we haven't pushed it across the goal, although we are satisfied that we have the right story and the right people involved, the only thing we're missing, Drew, is a piece of physical evidence that's incontrovertible. There have been a few claims over the years like, oh, we got this piece, we got that piece.

17:02The, well, they call them the little atoms or something, are different than what would be found on Earth. But nothing that has been agreed upon. So that's what we're missing, and that's why we're sort of at the goal line trying to get a piece of incontrovertible physical evidence. Yeah, for sure. So that book will be out either – because like I said, we finished it. It's at the publishers.

17:33It'll be out at the latest in June of next year. Okay. Case closed. Got it. And I think that's a great jumping off point, I mean, for my next question for you. I mean, first of all, thank you for walking us through that chronology there that's super thorough, and it's good to have the context. I mean, you're definitely a force to be reckoned with within the ufology arena.

Ufology Arena

17:54I mean, you're your partner in Crive Donald as well, right? And so what I'd like to do – you talked about physical evidence, and I think that we should definitely start with some of the archaeological digs that you guys did at the actual Roswell crash and debris field, right? And I believe you guys did three digs, is that correct?

18:12You know, I've lost count. We've had a number of smaller digs. The biggest dig, Drew, that we did was in 2002, sponsored by the Sci-Fi Channel. Very cool. Yes, and they paid for everything, and it was overseen and conducted by the University of New Mexico's Office of Contract Archaeology. We made the proposal of what we wanted to do, where we wanted to dig, and they accepted.

18:45And so they actually conducted the dig just like any other dig that they did. This one, we were looking for physical evidence from an alleged crash of a UFO in 1947. Now, we've identified three sites associated with the Roswell crash. So-called debris field site, which you just mentioned, which is the largest of the three sites.

19:21And it's closer to the town of Corona, New Mexico, than it is to Roswell. And what happened was, on the evening of July 2nd, 1947, I had to think there for a second. July 2nd, 1947, late in the evening, maybe after 11 o'clock, there was an explosion. We get this from eyewitnesses who remember hearing a muffled explosion during a thunderstorm. 33 miles south of the town of Corona, New Mexico.

19:58It exploded and rained down all this debris in small pieces.

20:06And it also, we believe that there were five alien occupants on board. Two of them were thrown out by the explosion and came to rest at a site two and a half miles east, southeast of the debris field site. So we believe that's called, we call that the D. Proctor body site because it was D. Proctor, D. Proctor, who was a boy of seven years old at the time of the crash, and he discovered the wreckage on the debris field site with Mac Brazel the following morning.

20:47He was with Mac. And it was D. Proctor in 1994 who finally told his mother about this site where he said that Mac found, quote, unquote, something else. And we believe that that something else was two bodies. And there were a total of five altogether, five bodies. And the third site, after the ship exploded in the air, ejecting two of its occupants, the inner cabin or some sort of escape pod or inner cabin that withstood the explosion,

21:35continued on for another 30 to 35 miles before it landed, came to rest, about 32 miles north, directly north of Roswell. So those 32 miles, I mean, it's still airborne at that point. It hasn't like completely crashed and it's not like sliding across the earth for 30 miles.

Roswell Crash Sites

21:58I want to make sure I'm tracking you correctly. Yeah, you've got the debris field site and then you've got the two and a half miles east, southeast, the D. Proctor site. And then it continues on for another 30 to 35 miles before it touches down. And we call that the impact site. Okay. Okay. Yeah, we call that the impacts site. When there were three occupants found there besides the inner cabin or the tear-shaped escape pod, something like that,

22:38there were three occupants, two of whom were dead, and one was still alive when the military arrived. And when the, you know, some of the civilians actually arrived before the military. And they saw this one alien with a large head, three and a half feet tall, with a large head, walking around. And also two of the, two of them were killed. So that gives a total of five. Two at the, two at the D. Proctor site, three at the impact site.

23:12And so we had a, that just gives you the background on the sites we had. The one that had the most wreckage was the debris field site. And that's where we did our archaeological dig in 2002 with the University of New Mexico. Because we felt the, you know, that had the most wreckage. We had the best chance of finding a piece there. And unfortunately, we didn't find any, any incontrovertible piece of physical evidence.

23:46The military had scoured, had vacuumed the site is a better term. They had vacuumed the site. And so many years had intervened, and there's, it's windy out there, a lot of wind, and the, the wreckage was feather light. So anything that remained that the military didn't get was blown hither and yon. And it would be a, a needle in a haystack type find if you ever found a piece there.

24:16But we did, we followed, uh, normal archaeological procedure in, uh, digging the site. And, uh, what we did find was, uh, uh, on the last day of the excavation, uh, we brought in the archaeologist's favorite tool, the backhoe. All right. And, uh, we, we had stories of, uh, back from 1947 that said there was a gouge, a large gouge created when the ship skimmed, uh, might have skimmed the, the ground before exploding.

24:59And it was apparently like 500 feet long, and, uh, we knew the, we knew the general trajectory of that gouge. So we had this backhoe do a scooper, you know, scoop right at a, uh, right angle, uh, like forming a T right across where we thought the gouge was. And there we saw, we could tell that the earth had been disturbed in a V, in a V shape, maybe about, uh, three feet deep at the, at the apex of the, uh, V, uh, to, uh, a couple feet at the top.

25:36So there was a V that we could see of, uh, uh, what we, in archaeology we call aeolian or windborne deposits that had filled in this V. And so, and it was right where the people said the gouge was. So to us, that was physical proof of the gouge or, or where the ship had skimmed the ground, uh, before exploding. So that's the best thing we found. We didn't find any memory metal or any metal at all.

26:09We didn't find any hubcaps or steering wheels or, or, uh, uh, fog lights or anything like that. Sure, sure. Uh, so that's what we did. That was, that was the big dig. There have been smaller ones scattered about over the years. And, uh, we have a friend of ours named Frank Kimbler who lives in Roswell. He's a, uh, he's a geologist that, uh, teaches, uh, geology at the New Mexico Military Institute.

26:42And he goes out on his own with a metal detector and whatever else geologists use and has picked up, has found little pieces of aluminum type material. And, uh, he's had some of them analyzed, which apparently display, according to Frank, a, uh, isotope structure different from, uh, anything on earth.

27:13So, uh, so he thinks that, you know, those are little pieces of the ship and they, and they are small. Uh, to us, it looks like, uh, aluminum or just foil from, uh, say a pack of cigarettes or a Hershey bar or something like that. So, we do have a little difference of opinion as to what those little pieces represent. But, uh, Frank, you know, Frank has, uh, been on television and what have you.

27:43And, uh, uh, you know, they just, to us, they just like, look like little pieces of aluminum. And the description we got from the witnesses who were at the Kirk sites, uh, they don't describe pieces that small. They describe all of the wreckage being like palms, uh, you know, like the palm of your hand. So, so we don't, we don't have any descriptions of tiny little pieces. So, there is a little difference of opinion as to what those things represent that Frank has found.

28:15But, uh, you know, he's, he, he goes out periodically. So, you never know. So, uh, those are, those are the physical steps we have taken. We believe that some of the ranchers, uh, the Corona ranchers and ranchers outside of Roswell who got to the site first. Normally, you know, you know, they would pick up, uh, they, normal people would pick up samples, right. And put them in their pockets. So, we believe that that had, has happened.

28:46But so far, none of them have come forward. We've heard rumors that the, uh, that the Brazzles, uh, who, uh, Mac Brazzle was the foreman of that, of that ranch. Uh, the debris field site. He was the foreman. It was the sheep ranch. Uh, we've heard rumors over the years that, uh, there were pieces in the family, the Brazzle family, that they kept. But, uh, uh, they tell us no. But, uh, we have others who say, well, they talked to so-and-so, uh, Brazzle, and he said they had pieces.

29:20So, you know, we, we just have not been able to break through on, on that, uh, that ground. Wow. That's intense. We do have to take just a quick break, but when we jump back in, let's definitely continue down this rabbit hole. So, more from Tom Carey after the break. Forget whatever plans you have this weekend because you're staying at home and playing on SpinQuest.

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30:36Call me at 423-800-6000. Maybe it's inherited, sitting vacant, causing you financial stress, or needs more repairs than you can handle. Whatever the situation or condition, I'll buy it. Our customers say things like, It was very smooth and easy, and we are satisfied with the amount we received from my mother's property. The entire process was easy. They were upfront, honest, and kept me informed every step of the way. ProSource is a great company to work with. We had a great experience from start to finish. Whatever the situation or condition, I'll buy it, and we can close in as little as a week.

31:08If you're ready to sell your house fast, call me at 423-800-6000. That's 423-800-6000. That's 423-800-6000. In a flash, sell your house for cash. ProSource Home Buyers. All right, welcome back to this week's episode of Lost Origins.

31:44This week, myself and Tom Carey are discussing all things Roswell, Area 51, Wright-Patterson, Hangar 18, all things extraterrestrials. So, before the break, we were really starting to rip into Area 51, and let's just jump right back in.

Area 51 and Wright-Patterson

32:00Let's talk a little bit about Area 51, then, because I think that's the most common conception, is that after the Roswell crash, a lot of the wreckage, the debris, the bodies, all the things, went back to Area 51. And that's what has basically created this phenomena around that enigmatic site down in New Mexico, insofar as the huge Facebook event that turned out to be a giant joke through and through that went down recently. But either way, most people associate Area 51 with the Roswell crash.

32:34In your most recent book, you guys actually talk about how that site is, I don't want to say a decoy, but for the lack of a better term, it's distracting people from where the evidence was actually moved. And that was up to Wright-Patterson up in Dayton, Ohio. And so, what I'm hoping you can do is just kind of explain your work, your research around the chronology of Area 51, but then also, like, what motivated the movement of all of this physical evidence up to Wright-Patterson?

33:05You actually have it backwards, Drew. Catch me up, then. Let's do it.

33:14Whenever I give a talk, I say, how many people have ever heard of Area 51? And all their hands go up, right? Then I say, how many people have ever heard of Hangar 18? And about half of the hands go down. Sure. Then I say, how many of you have ever heard of Wright-Patterson? And none of the hands remain. All the hands go down. But what happened was that the Roswell wreckage in the bodies, they did not go to Area 51 in Nevada.

33:53They went to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, or at that time it was called Wright Field. Really? In Dayton, Ohio. That's where all that stuff went. And why is that? Well, that's because during World War II, Wright Field and Patterson Field became militarized. They were started by the Wright Brothers back in the early part of the last century.

34:24But the military took it over, most of it, in World War I. And by World War II, they had really defined roles. And at Wright Field, they had this hangar. It was called Hangar 23, where all captured German and Japanese aircraft were taken to reverse engineer them. Basically tear them apart to find out what made them work and to define countermeasures and create new aircraft, fighter planes and what have you, that would defeat them in battle.

35:04So they already had this division called the foreign technology division, which back then meant people we were at war with. And they had a facility that actually was in the business of back engineering and tearing things down and analyzing, finding out what made them tick. So when the Roswell crash happened, this was really foreign technology, right? Sure.

35:34So it was the natural place to go. So that's where they took it to Hangar 23. And the bodies also, Wright Field had an advanced aeromedical squadron, aeromedical facility, all the latest medical things, gadgets and what have you. And that's where the bodies went. So if there were other crashes or other artifacts that came into our possession, that's where they went.

36:08Wright Field, Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Dayton, Ohio. So what happened was that during the mid-50s, Lockheed Aircraft Corporation in California, Wright-Patterson was becoming too, you know, the city had grown up around the base and it was becoming too populated. And the testing of aircraft, you know, once in a while you have a crash.

36:38So they said, OK, we can't do it. We can't test our aircraft here anymore. Number one, it's too busy, too easy to get spies in and out. And if we ever have a crash, you run the risk of crashing into a neighborhood or downtown Dayton, Ohio. So with the aid of Lockheed Aircraft, they found this place in Nevada near Groom Lake, which was which was very secluded desert area.

37:09It was a dry lake bed and very remote, good for testing aircraft. So beginning in 1954, 55, Area 51, which was simply a plot on the map, it had no cosmic significance. It was strictly a quadrant on the on the map of Nevada. And so that's where they built their this facility to train, to develop spy planes.

37:46That was the original concept. The U-2 spy plane and the SR-71 spy planes were developed at Area 51. That's why Area 51 came into existence northwest of Las Vegas, Nevada. OK, so so nothing to do with. The UFOs. But what happened was, oh, and we have word from people who worked at foreign technology at Wright-Patterson that the UFO type wreckage all went to, they shipped it to Area 51 in Nevada somewhere in the 1982 to 83 time frame.

38:31Because Wright-Patterson was becoming too well known for a reason, for a reason which I'll get to. So it was shipped. All that stuff went to Area 51 in Nevada in the early 60s, which which nobody really knew. And so what happens is, in 1989, this fellow named Robert Lazar, who claimed to have worked at Area 51, said that his job was working on captured or downed alien spaceships, flying saucers.

39:12He said that he said that he had eight hangers built into the side of the wall in an area called S-4, very secret area of Area 51. He worked in those hangers, and they had spacecraft from another world in there. And so that was Robert Lazar. That's how Area 51 became known, because up until that point, say, the U-2, there was a big international incident in 1960.

39:50We had a U-2 crash over the Soviet Union. And the U-2 was designed to overfly the Soviet Union at an altitude that the Soviet fighter planes and rockets couldn't reach. Well, by 1960, they downed the U-2 that was flown by Francis Gary Powers over Russia. And the U-2 became famous, but it was never mentioned where the thing was developed, which was Area 51.

40:26And the U.S. government never really admitted to an Area 51 until just before our book called Inside the Real Area 51 came out in 2013. All of a sudden, the CIA admitted that there was a facility called Area 51 in Nevada. Up until that point, they never would admit it. Bill Clinton in 1996 admitted that there was a facility there, but he never used the name Area 51.

41:02He just said there was a facility there because it was being sued by a couple former employees there who were claiming to have gotten terminal diseases. Because one of the things they did there was they burned hazardous material in open-air pits there. And they became sick and some died. And a suit was filed against the U.S. government.

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42:38ProSource is a great company to work with. We had a great experience from start to finish. Whatever the situation or condition, I'll buy it. And we can close in as little as a week. If you're ready to sell your house fast, call me at 423-800-6000. That's 423-800-6000. That's 423-800-6000. Get a flash, sell your house for cash. ProSource home buyers. You know, for wrongful deaths. So, Bill Clinton did admit to a facility there, but he never named it.

43:12And it wasn't until our book came out in 2013 that they finally admitted that there was a facility called Area 51 there. So, that's how it became associated with UFOs. It was Robert Lazar had done it. So, Robert Lazar, I don't know if you've ever seen him. He presents well. He's very glib. I think he was too young to have all the doctor's degrees that he claimed to have had.

43:45And a friend of mine who lived in Boston near MIT, which was one of the schools that Lazar said he had a doctorate from, interviewed him. And he asked Lazar a question that, okay, there's a historical site right next to MIT that any student who ever attended there would know.

44:15What is that site? And Lazar didn't know. So, on that basis, my associate said that this guy's just not telling the truth, at least about his degrees. Sure. So, that's how Area 51 became known with UFOs. But people did not, not many knew about Wright-Patterson. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They have heard of this Hangar 18, but they didn't really associate that with any known base.

44:52But that came about in 1994, as I was getting ready to go to the University of Toronto. This fellow in Florida named Professor Robert Spencer Carr, and he was no professor at all, he was just a UFO buff, started talking about friends that he knew who had retired, you know, Florida big retirement community, right? Sure.

45:22So, he had heard from military retirees who had worked at Wright-Patterson about this Hangar 18 there where all this, the alien artifacts were stored. And he says, it's Hangar 18, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and at Wright-Patterson. So, that's how Wright-Patterson got involved was because of the retirees in Florida telling this one guy.

45:53And I remember hearing this guy on the radio as, you know, my thoughts were getting ready to go to Toronto. And this story was big, big. It was Robert Spencer Carr's 15 Minutes of Fame. But he was right about that the, he said there were bodies stored there and that there was wreckage, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so, that was, but most people didn't remember the Wright-Patterson part of it.

46:28And there is, and to be honest with you, there is no Hangar 18. If you go to Wright-Patterson today, and as many people do, and they say, where's Hangar 18? They say, well, there is no Hangar 18. There ever was one. Right. And they're right. And the problem is that Hangar 18 is really the Hangar 23 that I was talking about. And the reason they called the Hangar 18 was because you need a schematic map.

47:00And it all became clear to me when I was able to get a map with a schematic of all the buildings on Wright Field, Wright-Patterson. There's something called the Building 18 Complex. It consists of nine buildings, Building 18A through 18G or F or something like that. But there's only one hangar in that complex. It's Hangar 23. Got it. So, people, out of convenience, just started referring to it as Hangar 18 because it's in the Building 18 complex, the only hangar there.

47:39And it's the one that does all of the reverse engineering that took place. So, that's the Hangar 18 of Lore. But in taxonomy terms, its real designation is Hangar 23. But it's the Hangar 18 of Lore. So, that's how it got all mixed up. And so, what's the current status of Hangar 18 based on your research and your work, Tom? I mean, is it still like an active facility? Are there still reverse engineering efforts taking place? Yeah, they just do testing of engines and stuff like that there.

48:14There's no more UFO stuff on the base because the base became too known for that. And people, you know, visitors to the base, they all wanted to know where Hangar 18 was and where the aliens were kept. So, we have a whole chapter in the book that just came out about UFO secrets at Wright Patterson. So, we have a whole chapter on Hangar 18.

48:45It's how it all came about. And we also have a whole chapter on the Blue Room. The Blue Room is nomenclature for the most secret room on any base. Now, today, the most secret room on any Air Force base is the room that has all the computers in it and the radar and all that sort of stuff. So, that's what the Blue Room is today. But back then, the Blue Room, because it's before all the computers came in and all that stuff, it was where all the secret stuff was.

49:22And the most secret stuff was the alien artifacts. And so, Barry Goldwater, a senator from Arizona back in 1963, in addition to being a senator and the chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, was also a two-star Air Force general, a major general in the Air Force Reserve. So, he wore two hats. He was a good friend of the chief of staff of the Air Force back then, Curtis Bomber LeMay, who, from World War II fame, rose to be the Air Force chief of staff in the 1960s.

50:05So, Goldwater finds himself at Wright Patterson on a tour as the chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee. And he says, oh, my God. He was also a UFO buff, by the way. And so, he's at Wright Patterson. He says, oh, my goodness. I know there's a room they call the Blue Room here. And that's supposed to be where all that wreckage is and the bodies and all that.

50:35So, he says, I'm – so, he calls up his friend. They were good friends, Curtis LeMay. He calls up Curtis LeMay in Washington. He says, General, I'm here at Wright Patterson. I understand there's a room here where you keep all of that, you know, foreign alien artifacts and bodies and everything associated with UFOs.

51:05By that time, the term flying saucer had been taken over by the term UFOs. So, where all that UFO stuff is, might I go into that room? And he says, it was the only time that LeMay ever got really mad at him. He says, no, you can't go in that room. Hell, no. I can't go in – I can't go in that room myself, and I don't believe that for a second.

51:34And don't ever ask me that question again because if you do, I'll see that you're court-martialed. Well, thank God they were friends, right? Sure. So, Goldwater dropped – he never asked him again, but LeMay wouldn't let him in, and he got really, really upset about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, that was the Blue Room. So, we have a whole chapter on that in our book.

52:05Very cool. There's another chapter in your book that I'd like to talk about, or at least a topic that's discussed in your book, and that's aliens on ice, right? And so, when I was looking online at just some of the synopsis and overview work. Alien what? Aliens on ice, right? Oh, yeah. So, there's a snippet from online that basically says, it should be clear from these testimonials that in addition to physical crash wreckage, bodies from another world were brought to and stored at Wright-Patterson. Being with the Roswell crash in July of 1947, the evidence suggests that the bodies were preserved in clear containers in a state of chirogenic suspension by some combination of low temperature and chirogenic gas or solution.

52:51So, can you just share with us some of the testimonials that you guys speak to, and then also maybe just walk us through some of the credibility of these testimonials? I think that would be fascinating for our listeners. Well, before they had cryogenic suspension, Hank... Whether it's slots or live dealers, SpinQuest.com has the fun and action you're looking for. With SpinQuest exclusives, Blackjack, Roulette, Baccarat, and even live dice with craps and bubble craps.

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54:30That's 423-800-6000. That's 423-800-6000. In a flash, sell your house for cash. ProSource Home Buyers. Hangar 23-18 is right across the alley from the cold storage room. Building 18F was a cold storage room. So how convenient, you know, that you have this Hangar 18 and the alien artifacts and then the bodies.

55:02And right across the street is what they called the ice house. It was the cold storage room. So the bodies were kept there for a couple of years. And we have testimonial from one fellow. And I can't give you names because I got so many names in my, you know, in my head. I couldn't give you the guy's name unless I looked it up. But it's in the book because we name names.

55:28We just don't say someone or an anonymous. So we name names. So we had one fellow, he said, you know, I worked close to this building 18F, which was a cold storage room. He says, but, you know, on hot summer days, and this is before air conditioning. Okay. He says, you know, on hot summer days, boy, we would, a smell of like formaldehyde would waft down the street.

55:59And he says, I always, I wondered why it would have formaldehyde coming from that cold storage room. Because, you know, they did cold testing of engines. They like to test aircraft engines in cold conditions. And that might be part of what that building was for. But he said, well, I got, I smelled this formaldehyde smell coming down the street from that 18, building 18F.

56:30So that's one guy. So at some point, the use of these capsules with what we call cryogenic suspension, I don't know what gas they use in there, nitrogen, I don't know. But something that keeps them cold without having to use ice. And we have testimonies from several people who found themselves, they were either led there for some reason.

57:05And they saw even workers that were working on something that had nothing to do with this. But they would see these capsules, a number of capsules. And they said, wow, what are those things? So they went over and looked at them, and they could see these little bodies in there, about three and a half feet tall, with these large heads. Clearly, they were not human. We have testimonials from a number of people like that who were like construction workers doing some work down there.

57:38And they were always told not to look at the capsules, right? Don't look at anything. Just do your work. But, of course, when they were left alone, they would go over and look. And they all said they saw these little diminutive bodies with large heads. Some of them were in various states of dissection. But at least one was not dissected, but the others were in various states of dissection. So that took over for the ice room.

58:12The ice house was this cryogenic suspension. And we have a picture in the book. Now, I might be getting my books mixed up, but we have a picture of the back of Hangar 23, and you can see these large tanks in the back, very large tanks, which contain nitrogen or something like that. Now, why would they have that at a hangar? Well, that's what they use for cryogenic suspension.

58:44And so we have that at the back of Hangar 23 slash 18. And, again, we name names, and there's no doubt as to what was going on there. Wow. That's super intense. So I guess one of my last questions for you, because I feel like this is a loaded question as I'll get out, is how does Project Blue Book fit into this narrative, right, and into your guys' work in general? I mean, if you can just walk us through some of the connections that you guys have been able to piece together around Project Blue Book and all of these components, I think that would be super fascinating for our audience.

59:22Well, right after Roswell, they needed some organization, some department to control the analysis of the wreckage in the bodies and also to control access to it. Because even if you have a top-secret clearance, it doesn't clear you for everything. It's more or less designated, like I have a top-secret crypto clearance.

59:54That doesn't mean that I can walk into Wright-Patterson and say, all right, I have a top-secret clearance. Where are you keeping the UFO artifacts? Now, I have a top-secret crypto, which it's limited to my cryptographic work, you know. Sure. And so they developed a very loose organization called Project Sign, which concluded that UFOs were real and blah, blah, blah, blah, that they weren't figments of people's imagination.

1:00:33Well, somebody didn't like that, so they disbanded Project Sign and created Project Grudge, whose purpose was to debunk flying saucers' stories. But they kept happening, and so they created this public relations outfit, and that's what it was. Because the Air Force kept getting phone calls about flying saucers, UFOs.

1:01:05And so they created Project Blue Book in 1952 to investigate and hopefully draw conclusions as reports came in. So what happened was that they tried to debunk every report that came in. And along the way, one of the scientific consultants was a fellow named J. Allen Hynek, an astronomer at the University of Ohio State.

1:01:42And this one in 1966, basically, there were these sightings in Ann Arbor, Michigan, Dexter, Michigan, that made national headlines. So the Project Blue Book sent him up there to debunk what was going on. And so he gets off the plane, and because some of the sightings were near a swampy area, he gets off the plane, and all the reporters, they rush up to him.

1:02:17And they say, Professor, what's going on? And he says, well, you know, in marshy areas, there's this gas called swamp gas. And when you get swamp gas, sometimes it lights up and creates like a little fireball. Swamp gas, so they all rush to the phone. Allen Hynek says the Ann Arbor sightings, the Dexter, Michigan sightings, it's swamp gas. Well, he never lived that down, and he became known as Old Swampy.

1:02:52And Blue Book, the explanation was just unacceptable to anybody with a thinking mind. You know, swamp gas, and this is it. So the Air Force threw up their hands in 1966 right after that. And they said, we've got to get out of this business. So they threw it to the University of Colorado to conduct a three-year study of UFO cases, which they did.

1:03:23So in 1969, they came out with a report, which didn't debunk UFOs, but it just said they're not a threat to national security. But they saw no further, no scientific value that could be gained by continuing to investigate these reports. Which is untrue, of course, but the Air Force used that to close down Project Blue Book in 1969. So technically, they were out of the UFO business in 1969.

1:03:58But did that mean that UFO sightings stopped? No. People kept having sightings, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And you call up a base, they say, well, we're not in the UFO business anymore. Call your local police. So that's how they got out of the UFO business was they farmed it out to the University of Colorado.

1:04:27What was that? I can't remember the fellow's name. Oh, but he issued a report that, and the thing was, if you read his report, there are cases in there that still remain unknown. But they just said that they were not a threat to national security and that there was no scientific value.

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1:05:49The entire process was easy. They were upfront, honest, and kept me informed every step of the way. ProSource is a great company to work with. We had a great experience from start to finish. Whatever the situation or condition, I'll buy it, and we can close in as little as a week. If you're ready to sell your house fast, call me at 423-800-6000. That's 423-800-6000. That's 423-800-6000. Get a flash, sell your house for cash. ProSource Homebuyers.

1:06:19They could see that would be gained by continuing to investigate them. So the Air Force used that report to shut it down. Interesting. And that's what they did. That's fascinating. Super, super, super fascinating.

Conclusion and Future Work

1:06:34So, listen, I know that we're almost at time here. I want to give you the opportunity to share with the audience what you guys have coming down the pike. I know you'd already mentioned the two books that are coming out within the next year, one between November and December, and then one, I believe, next June. But what else are you guys working on? I mean, how can people follow your guys' work online? What's the website address? Just kind of do the self-promo thing for us. Yes, in addition to the books, we have a website.

1:07:05It's called www.roswellinvestigator.com. That's all one word, www.roswellinvestigator.com. And we have another field trip planned. One of the early legends of this case was that there was this fellow named, his last name was Richards, I forget, Dan Richards. And he lived near Corona, but he had this secret cave where he would take things, you know, like something from the military, like a rifle, or we know he took a machine gun, and he would store things in his secret cave.

1:07:53Well, living near the site of the crash, Dan got to the crash site and took wreckage, and he stored it in his secret cave. We've never been able to find that cave, but now we have two relatives of Dan Richards. Richards died in 1965, and he crashed his pickup truck.

1:08:23So he was unavailable to us. We visited the Richards Ranch a few years ago, and they were very tight-lipped and claimed they didn't know where the, you know, this cave was. But we have now two other relatives of Dan Richards who have agreed to take us to his secret cave. Wow. And like I said, I'm a field person. I'm looking forward to actually following through on this to see if we can find Richards' cave.

1:09:00And maybe there's something still left in there. We don't know, but that's always the hope. And we also are planning something over the years in investigating this case. We've come across a number of famous people who were touched by the case. That doesn't mean they were out there at the crash site, but that they, you know, a husband was involved or a relative was involved, something that they were somehow directly involved in the case in some manner, shape, or form.

1:09:40And we have a chapter in the book that's coming out next year called Touched by Roswell. And some of the people that just to name a few is Mickey Rooney, Shirley MacLaine, Gordon McRae, a host of others that were touched by this case. And we're actually thinking of maybe doing a whole book on that.

1:10:15But we have a chapter in our upcoming book for next year, Case Closed, which if we do another book, it won't mean Case Closed. Right, right. But a number of people who were actually touched by Roswell in some manner, shape, or form, that you would recognize their names. That's exciting. Well, you'll definitely have to keep us in the loop on that. And as you guys are making progress, I'd love to, you know, have you guys come back on the show and just connect with CK and I and make sure that we're, you know, keeping the audience up to speed on what you guys are working on and discovering out in the field.

1:10:54I think it's a really, really amazing approach to ufology in general. And you guys got to keep fighting the good fight. Well, thank you. Thank you for those kind words. And keep, remember, we know we have a book coming out again, another book, the picture book coming out between Thanksgiving and Christmas. That's, you know, it's our investigation in pictures with captions and with a narrative too. So you might look for that around Christmas time.

1:11:26Yeah, I think our audience would really dig the hell out of that. That sounds like an awesome, awesome thing for people to visually see what is being referenced specifically in our conversation as well. Yeah, it should be the companion to every book ever written about Roswell because it brings the case to life. It brings the case to life. That's great. Well, listen, Tom, we really appreciate you carving out time for us today. This was an amazing conversation. We appreciate you doing the deep dive that you did. You know, like I said, we'll have to link back up and make sure that we get you and your partner in crime back on the show and just keep in the loop of all the things that you guys have going on.

1:12:04But we really appreciate the time. Thank you so much, Tom. Thank you, Drew. It's been my pleasure. Very good. Bye now. All right. Well, hot damn. I hope that you guys enjoyed that conversation as much as I did. Tom is just one hell of a thoughtful researcher. His partner in crime, Donald Schmidt, is also just one solid, solid dude. You can check out their work online. They have all their books available on Amazon as well. Tons of video content throughout the web available for those two.

1:12:35So make sure that you guys check it out. Lots of good questions that they are asking. Would highly encourage everybody to just continue to explore all the things. I found it super fascinating when we start veering into the territory that is Wright-Patterson, Hangar 18, the connections to Ohio, all the cover-ups. I mean, I always love myself a good conspiracy theory. So definitely, definitely enjoyed that. And I'm looking forward to having Tom back on the show. But next time, I would really like to try to get Donald on the horn as well and just kind of have a roundtable discussion about what they are continuing to dig into.

1:13:09So next week's episode is one that I've been looking forward to for a long time. It's taken us a hot minute to track this individual down. His travel schedule is very, very, very hectic. And he's not an easy guy to pin down. But next week, we are going to be welcoming Brian Forrester onto the show for the first time in the history of Lost Origins. If you're not familiar with Brian's work, man, I don't know what the hell kind of rock you've been living under. But Brian is an authority on megalithic works of South America.

1:13:40But he's also best well known for his work around the perplexing, ancient, elongated, headed people of the area, more affectionately referred to as the Paracas skulls. So this guy has basically written all the books. I mean, legitimately, when we were coming through what we were going to be talking to Brian about on the episode, I counted more than 30 books currently in the wild. So, man, calm down a little bit. But he's recently completed a ton of research around Gobekli Tepe as well.

1:14:15So next week, when we get Brian on the horn, we're going to be talking about the Paracas skulls because, I mean, you can't talk to Brian Forrester and not include that as a talking point. His trip to Gobekli Tepe, what he was trying to find, locate, research, and just kind of get his take on all the things that he encountered there. And then, most importantly, we're going to be ripping into Lost Ancient Technologies. So it's going to be one hell of a conversation. If you've not subscribed to the podcast, just take a minute, smash the subscribe button for us. Written five-star reviews are always appreciated.

1:14:45That shit helps us move the needle. Something fierce. You can check out the website, lost-origins.com. There's merchandise on the website. There's tons of resources for you. We have articles written by previous guests of the show, most of which are exclusive pieces of content and publishings that you cannot find anywhere else in the wild. So it's not stuff that's out in their books. It's not stuff that's available on their individual websites. It's content that is exclusively available at lost-origins.com. And if you love what we're doing, hop over to patreon.com forward slash lost-origins.

1:15:18Throw us a bone, right? Running a podcast is not an easy endeavor, nor is it something that is cheap when it's done right. And so anything you guys are willing to peel off, it definitely means the world to us, and every little bit helps. So let's circle back next Monday for our conversation with Brian Forrester. Until then, I'm Andrew, and we challenge you to question everything. Thank you.

1:15:44Thank you.

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