S03E19 - Dr. David Miano // World of Antiquity

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1:22All right, it's Monday, and welcome to this week's installment of Lost Origins. Homie CK, how are you? Holler. By the time you guys listen to this, someone will have won the Super Bowl. I know! It's going to be, I don't even know what to expect. I mean, we've got a lot of sports ball stuff going on tonight. I can't place a bet on who's going to win.

1:54I don't really follow that, but I just want to tip the proverbial hat to all the teams out there that really gave it their all to try to track down that golden snitch and, you know, do the thing for their house. The rest of you are just not as magic, and clearly you didn't make it. And you can't all be a champion, except for this team that I don't know yet. Gryffindor! Yeah, sports. Serious sports ball going down. Yeah, I don't really know much about sports ball. And we are actually recording this at a time that I think they might even be kicking balls through things.

2:27Yeah, the tip-off just started. Opening pitch of the Super Bowl. It's about to come down. It's going to be a thing. Yeah. Yeah, so sports, not what this podcast is about, thank God. And this podcast is brought to you by our good friends over at Inner Traditions and Barron Company. Supporter of the show from day one, these guys have it going on. If you guys are looking for a solid read to jump down a rabbit hole to just peel the wig and just get your read on, head over to innertraditions.com and just peruse the library.

3:01Guys, come on. By now, everybody who's into this space knows these guys love and support you. Get over there. Real books are awesome. Yeah. That's one of the things that I think both of us have learned. And I think just like seeing how they've done the entire support of this community for a long time. Send them some love. Innertraditions.com. Yep. You over there, check out hits from like Robert Buval, Andrew Collins. I mean, the list goes on and on. Several folks who have been on the show. You guys need to check it out.

3:31Innertraditions.com. Get your read on. Also, another supporter of the show that we need to tip the proverbial hat to this week is The Great Courses Plus. I know that we've been beating this drum for a hot minute now, but you guys, it is well-deserved and it's a rhythm that you guys need to get in step with, right? So, if you head over to thegreatcoursesplus.com, you guys are going to have access to so many different just top drawer courses, curriculums, topics, genres, all the things where you're able to jump down any given rabbit hole.

4:02But like we've been saying from day one, it's like you're in an Ivy League classroom without that like student loan, all that tuition falling around. After, you know, doing this for now a couple months pretty regularly, I think both of us go into any online kind of education with some skepticism, but it's one of the most like simple, easy, accessible, just like every single one of the things that I'm looking into is way over my head originally. And then after, you know, seven or eight courses or seven or eight, you know, topics deep, I'm already doing things at a level that I haven't done since.

4:36Yeah. The course that we're going to focus on this week is Redefining Reality, the Intellectual Implications of Modern Science. And if any of you out there have enjoyed season two or season three of this show, this is going to be your jam because we are going to be able to learn so many different things just about what the nature of reality is. And there's going to be so many topics that are just lockstep and in line with different guests that we've brought onto the show and explored their work, their research and whatnot. And one area that I found personally fascinating was just the focus on computers and big data and how they can now just like predict what we're going to do in so many situations.

5:11Like, am I, am I alive? What, I mean, we've had conversations about that. Yeah. We've talked about free will technology, you know, whether or not things that we do are real, what is the substance of the choices we make? Like, you know, I feel like we've explored some of these things, but I will say probably without having gotten through this course yet personally, that they will absolutely bring it to a different level for us. Yeah. Easily one of the best things that I've paid for. And I think the cool thing here is we're trying to make it even cheaper for you guys. If you go to thegreatcoursesplus.com slash lostorigins, you're going to get three months unlimited, all their courses, 30 bucks.

5:47Right. I mean, that is one hell of a deal. I mean, we're talking 10 bucks a month. I mean, if you just, I don't know. Just do it, guys. Yeah. It's worth it. We're not trying to waste your time. It's absolutely worth every moment. And frankly, if you don't think so, 30 bucks is nothing. Thanks for pulling me back on the rails too. I was going to try to come up with some long-winded metaphor that would waste everybody's time. But, you know, just do the thing. Do it, guys. Thegreatcoursesplus.com slash lostorigins, all one word. Get in there. Let us know what you think. Let us know what courses you guys are jumping into. And let's riff about them on social media.

6:19So, this week, we have one hell of a treat in store for you. Like we had mentioned last week, we are going to be talking to Dr. David Miano today. And so, this is going to be a pretty interesting conversation because for the life of the show, we've brought on many alternative thinking minds throughout the world that are just like spearing the charge on different theories, research, topics, whatnot, that they're digging into. They kind of challenge the status quo, so to speak, right? And so, Dr. Miano, I mean, this guy, he has a YouTube channel that is widely followed.

6:49But he's an ancient historian and he specializes in the histories of the Near East, Egypt, Greece, Rome, India, China, the list goes on and on. This guy earned his PhD at the University of California in San Diego in 2006. And he's the author of How to Know Stuff, which that sounds like the title of a book I would write. I like that. And he has several anthologies of ancient works designed specifically for classroom use. This guy currently teaches at the State College in Florida. And he runs the YouTube channel that I mentioned that's called The World of Antiquity.

7:20And so, this features his travels to ancient sites, but it also is a series that debunks a lot of common misconceptions within ancient times. And so, I think he does a really good job of tactfully and gracefully approaching a lot of the alternative schools of thought out there. Yeah, but he's also pretty blunt. Yeah. And I think, to some degree, as an academic historian, he feels like he has a really serious responsibility to clear things up with certain groups that may look at things from different angles. And I think he does it in a really thoughtful, non-dismissive, and also just trying to challenge people who are trying to challenge things.

7:57For sure. And so, I think it's going to be a lot of fun because when we get him on the horn, you know, we like to ask questions. And we also like ourselves a little bit of controversy. Controversy. And so, I want to make sure that we rip through Sumerian astronomical knowledge, Atlantis, if we have time, because that's always fun, the Great Pyramids. I mean, just as much as we can get through in an hour with this guy. But I want to pick his brain and just see what his take is on these topics. So, let's get him on the horn. Let's go. All right.

8:36Good afternoon, Dr. Miano. How the hell are you? I'm doing great, guys. Thanks for having me on. Oh, no. It's our pleasure. We're really, really excited to welcome you to the Lost Origins roster. I think this is going to be a really, really fun conversation. Really excited to just get your take on all these different concepts and theories that we're going to rip through today. It's always fun to just get another perspective and make sure that we're looking at things from all angles on the show. So, this will be good stuff. And so, Dr. Miano, you know, for those who follow your work, you know, in various...

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9:38It's different channels. They'd know that you teach at State College of Florida, Manatee, Sarasota. You are a PhD at University of California, San Diego, back in 2006, way long ago. You host a pretty awesome YouTube channel, The World of Iniquity, or Antiquity, sorry. World of Iniquity would be a totally different thing, but World of Antiquity. That sounds interesting, too. Yeah, that sounds like the news these days.

10:02You know, you traveled ancient sites. You also, you know, spend a lot of time debunking common misconceptions about ancient times. But for those who maybe haven't seen those things or haven't followed your career, you know, can you give us a breakdown of, you know, how did you get involved in all of this? What really got you started back in the day, and what kind of things do you focus on nowadays? Okay. Yeah, I've always loved history. It was one of my favorite classes through school, but I didn't get into that right away. I tried a few other majors and then finally settled on it.

10:33And initially, I was just thinking, maybe I'll teach high school social studies or something like that. But, boy, the more classes I took on the ancient material, the more excited I was. And I think we all can agree, ancient history is really fascinating. I found it way more interesting than some of the more recent subject matters. So, the older, the better for me. So, I just, I still, and to this day, I'm so glad I did it because I still am just as much in love with the subject as I was back then. And even though I know that I may have differences of opinion with many of your listeners, we all share the same love.

11:11So, I'm coming here as a fellow enthusiast, you might say. So, yeah, I went to the University of California, San Diego for my PhD and studied under a great team of professors. And I've been teaching ever since. I started up a nonprofit a few years ago called Scola Antiquorum, which is designed to make ancient history available through online courses. But I'm still trying to get that off the ground. And now I'm kind of using my YouTube channel to build an interest in that.

11:43So, within the next year or so, I will start offering online courses on various ancient subjects. So, cool. Yeah. That's great. And so, on the college level. So, it wouldn't just be like superficial kind of classes. These would be deep dives, you know. Right, right. But, yeah, my YouTube channel, I just started it up in the beginning of July. And I got two days going on the channel. One is on a series of travel videos.

12:13So, my plan is to travel around to various ancient sites around the world and build interest in those places. I just finished a trip to England. And in December, I'm going to be going to the Yucatan Peninsula to examine the Mayan ruins. Nice. So, I'm looking forward to that. If you want CK and I to come with you, we can probably work that out. Just throw some tickets. We'll be there, man. Well, if these travel videos turn out successful, I'll probably start bringing people. Huge. So, you never know. Oh. I'll put your name on a list. Awesome. I like being on a list.

12:43A good list. There's bad lists out there, too. So, before we get super heavy. I don't have a literal list just yet, but I will have one. Sure. Sure. My other series is these debunking videos, I guess you could call them. I've been avoiding the word debunked because everyone kind of overuses the term. But, so I say, like, I'm an examination of the various topics. Sure. And so, I've been taking some other, I've been addressing other YouTubers' videos. And there's two reasons for that. One is because a lot of people are watching those videos and, you know, maybe I'll build

13:17some interest that way if some of the viewers of those videos watch my videos, but also because since a lot of people do watch those videos, there might be some information going around that I think is not accurate and needs to be corrected. Sure. So, that's why I do it. So, I'm trying to pick some interesting subjects. And I've got a few out now. I've got one on the pyramids and one on Atlantis and one on the cylinder seal VA-243 with the solar system and all of that. Yep. And I'm working on one right now on whether India was the first civilization in the world,

13:52which is, some people believe so. Yeah. It's on that. Yeah. I've spent some time on the YouTube channel. There's definitely some really, really interesting videos that you've pieced together. Um, I didn't like take it as like the debunking swing at all. It was more or less like a, let's kind of take a step back and, uh, throw another perspective, uh, you know, at it. And it's, it's really cool. There's the, when you mentioned the pyramids video, we are going to talk about that today. Uh, you talk about other people consuming that content. I believe that one has what, like 14 plus million views at the time that you produced that, that film or that, that video.

14:23Is that correct? Yeah. That, that was, that's like a viral video. Everyone was watching it. And, uh, you know, and I, I had it shared with me. You're like, Hey, what do you think of this video? So, so basically I'm telling people what I think of it. Sure. And I think, you know, it's almost like a public service, right? To the extent that there, there are absolutely, you know, room in the, or there's room in the debate for plenty of perspectives. But I think to some of the point you were making a moment ago, there also are so many people who just, you know, are going to put things out that are absolutely not substantiated.

14:56Um, it's one thing to have theories. I think we all have theories about things and it's fun to ruminate about them or dig into them, but definitely appreciate, uh, somebody who's taking a really serious approach to trying to find the truth of something, not just something that might feel comfort controversial or feel good or something. So thank you for doing that. I try very hard not to like, I'm not doing it to make fun of people or to, uh, you know, score points. I'm, I'm trying to like say, let's step back here and just think this through for a minute, you know, step by step. And, uh, can we, are we going to, do we come to the same conclusion if we really think it

15:28through? And so it's more like that. Are you opposed to the next great Twitter battle or, cause that can be fun too.

15:36Those are always fun. Surprisingly, I thought I would get more blowback, you know, uh, but I haven't, uh, received a lot. I mean, I get some, some people that getting, uh, angry about it, but not many. Uh, so that's been pleasant. Yeah, for sure. For sure. Cause the internet is, I mean, it's mean. Oh man, it's a little gnarly. Yeah. Yeah. So, so before we get super heavy, I really wanted to do just like a quick discussion of a few of the misconceptions regarding ancient Mesopotamia specifically. Okay. So there, there's many components of ancient history that seem to get lumped into the one

16:08Sumerian bucket, if you will. And I thought that it would be a really good jumping off point to get your professional insight on, uh, a few examples. Those being like the library of Ashurbanipal, the winged bowls, which are often referred to as, as the Anunnaki, the origination of, uh, you know, the Sumerian calendars and timekeeping systems and basically like the advanced nature of the Sumerian civilization as a whole. Um, I, I know there are some wires crossed there and I think it would be very beneficial for the audience if, if you could just break us off on, on, on what you're actually seeing here when you look under the hood.

16:40Okay. Yeah. I think there's a few common, um, mistakes people make when they're, when they're dealing with the subject of ancient Mesopotamia. And it's understandable, uh, that they would, but one, uh, common one I've seen is, uh, kind of, um, mushing them all together. So like whether they're Sumerians or Assyrians or Babylonians and, uh, maybe even the Persians, uh, you know, everything is kind of lumped together as if it's all the same, but we're talking about different cultures that live during different time periods.

17:10And, uh, so you have to separate and, and also think about the chronology and when this was, uh, people, um, consider just kind of homogenous. And I think that does lead to some mistakes. Uh, the other common mistake I think is people looking only at the art and not reading any of the documents. So, you know, there's a lot of, you know, because obviously most people can't read the ancient languages. So what are you going to do? You're going to look at the art, you know, Oh, look at these cool creatures.

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18:15Consulting, or without consulting enough, the written sources we have on these things that can shed some more light on the subject. And that's why I made this one on the cylinder seal, which, you know, goes back to Zechariah Sitchin believing it's the solar system. But there's so many documents we have from the ancient Mesopotamians that talk about their views of the universe and how it's constructed and all that, that can shed a lot of light on what these images could be, you know, on these various cylinder seals.

18:46Sure, sure. So, like, when we look at the library of Ashurbanipal, for example, a lot of people assume that when that site was excavated, that's where a lot of the cuneiform tablets were actually, you know, like, recovered and we were able to start to parse that language and understand what we were working with there. But that's an incorrect assumption, correct? It was mainly Assyrian tablets that came out of that library. Is that a correct understanding? Well, it's a little of both. Cuneiform, of course, is just the script.

19:17Sure. You can write Assyrian in cuneiform. So, when I say this was our Assyrian tablets, yeah, they're written in cuneiform, absolutely. But they're not Sumerian language, okay? So, the Sumerians invented cuneiform and they used it first for their language. Then the Akkadian-speaking people started using cuneiform for their language. And Akkadian then developed into two branches, Assyrian and Babylonian. So, the Assyrians and Babylonians also used cuneiform to write their language.

19:49And there were other people, too, lesser, you know, more minor countries and all that, that also used cuneiform to write their language. So, it's one of those universal scripts. You could write English in cuneiform if you wanted to. So, one of the first things you have to do when you find a tablet is, like, which language is this in, you know? Oh, sure. So, the library of Assyrian-Barnapal, yes, this is the greatest find of cuneiform tablets we've ever had. But, they're not Sumerian, you know? They come from a later time.

20:20Assyrian-Barnapal, he ruled in the 7th century BCE. So, much later than the Sumerian heyday. So, we just have to keep that in mind when we discover things like that. So, just to kind of poke at this a little bit more as well, you know, you see people really looking back on some of the iconography and the artwork of different Sumerian sites. And one of the, you know, characters that people often point to is this, the idea of the Anunnaki.

20:50I just, I'm interested just to get your perspective on, you know, what sorts of things do you think about those figures? Do they, you know, specifically as it might relate to, like, being given timekeeping knowledge or the, you know, sexadecimal system and some of these other kind of advanced things that the Sumerian civilization had. Where does that fit into your research at all? Or is it something that you just don't deal with?

21:17Well, I mean, as far as the Anunnaki goes, well, let's say, let's put it this way. In ancient cuneiform tablets, Mesopotamian writings, the Anunnaki are not really a prominent feature. You know what I'm saying? They don't talk about them a lot. They talk about usually gods by their individual names. You'll get all kinds of individual gods names. But there aren't that many terms that the Mesopotamians used for a grouping of gods. They have the Anunnaki. They have the Igigi.

21:48There aren't really that many groups of gods. And I think it appealed to Zechariah Sitchin. At least it's a term we could use for this group of gods. But Anunnaki is a later term. We think that maybe it goes back to a Sumerian word, Anunna. But again, these gods were not – I think people are attributing to this group of gods more accomplishments than the actual documents say.

22:21You know what I'm saying? And the Igigi gods, for example, are more important than the Anunnaki. They're higher gods. So, yeah. But I mean this general idea of – we call this euhemerism. Where you assume that the gods were real people. In other words, that the ancient people misunderstood and they met real people whom they didn't understand and seemed magical to them and started worshiping them as gods.

22:55This became very popular in the 60s and 70s. That happens to Andrew all the time. He'll show up at a place and they'll be like, what are you? He's like, baby, I'm just a man. He's like, oh, you know, Return of the Jedi. Exactly. Yeah. You're basically speaking to like the cargo coal phenomenon, though, right? It's very much like the cargo coal phenomenon, right? Yeah. The problem I have with that approach is – I mean, I suppose it's possible that legendary figures could be turned into gods later on. But to just assume that like that was the most common thing that happened, like all the gods have those origins, I think is misunderstanding the ancient mind.

23:35For them, they looked at the features of nature and they personified those features of nature. The sun was a god, the moon was a god, the stars were god, you know, the earth was a god, you know, the storm was a god. These are all natural phenomena that they just personified in their minds and they're like thinking of them as intelligent spirits. That's really where the gods come from. And we just have this tendency to kind of anthropomorphize the figure or the sort of – we want to contain a particular god or a particular god narrative like inside something that sort of resembles some sort of bipedal or anthro kind of format, right?

24:13Yeah, and instead, as time goes on, instead of what some people assume is that earthly physical creatures turn into gods in people's minds over time, what in fact happens is these natural forces get made more human over time, you know what I'm saying? So they write stories about them and they turn them into themselves, basically. So I think that is the more realistic way of looking at the religion. Sure, and so I think, you know, something that's sort of ancillary to religion or at least maybe gets pulled into some of the discussion about religion is this sort of seeking in the cosmos or the sort of celestial mechanics that a lot of ancient civilizations have, you know, some knowledge of.

24:58And I think just, you know, continuing thinking about the Sumerians, there are definitely a lot of people in this space who, you know, have a wide-ranging set of theories about the Sumerians and their either extreme or potentially outsized knowledge of celestial mechanics. And so I'm just wondering, you know, from your perspective, what kind of knowledge do you think Sumerians had? Was it sort of synoptic for their time? Was it immense? Is it something that we ascribe to them too much? What do you think about that?

25:29Yeah. No doubt they are an impressive civilization, and they're the first that we know of. But I think their knowledge has been exaggerated, and I think it's great to be impressed by the things that they were able to do, but sometimes people are inclined to give them more credit than they deserve. So we have – well, it's a little difficult with the Sumerians because we don't have a lot of their astronomical documents.

25:59We have documents from a little bit later times. We have quite a bit from the Assyrians and Babylonians, which we can say, oh, this probably developed from earlier Sumerian views. So you can only go so far back. But using the Mesopotamian documents that we have, they're astronomical documents, and they have documents that talk about the cause. Spring is here, and look at you. You're still stressed. Allow me to introduce the all-new Acora Plunge Collection, designed to combine performance, durability, and elegance, and available in 15 or 19 feet.

26:33It's perfect for training, cooling off, or dramatically floating while rethinking your life choices. And remember, every spa comes loaded, covered, cover lifts, steps, chemical kit, and delivered right to your spot. You just sit, you just soak, and you forget everyone's name. Dynasty Spas, exit 49 in Athens. Online, DynastySpaStore.com. ...and how it's put together, we can see pretty clearly that they knew of only five planets, the five planets that you could see with the human eye. So, you know, and that they believed that the sun and the moon and the stars, not only that they were gods, but that they were really not that far away, because they believed that the Earth was covered by a heavenly ocean, and that the sun, moon, and stars were on this side of the ocean.

27:22Like, so, it isn't that far up there, you know what I'm saying? And the same thing with the planets as well. And then on the other side of the ocean, above the ocean, that's where all the gods were and all of that. But, so, it's a primitive view, and they also believed that the Earth was flat. It was basically a flat circle, a flat disk, with an ocean going around it. Mm-hmm. And, um... And it's not, right? Just to be, just to put our stake in the ground here, it is not, right? You're not going to blow us, blow our mind and be like, guys...

27:55And they were right. Okay, okay. Oh, no! No, I'm not a flat earther. Okay, cool. Thank you. That's cool. I'm sure the flat earthers are going to love me saying that. If we get any messages around that, we'll forward them to you, though. Yeah, we'll definitely forward that to you. Yeah, okay. As they explored more of their world, and as their knowledge grew of how big it was, the circle that they're picturing as the Earth did get bigger in their minds, like, oh, there's more here than we thought, you know? And so they expand the circle.

28:25Yeah. But it still remained a circle. And the Greeks had the same view of the world, very similar, I should say, that it was a flat circle. Until you get to Aristotle, people like that, who started arguing, no, it's a sphere, you know? Well, let's take it one step further, right? You had mentioned earlier in the conversation some of the depictions and the seal, specifically, that Zechariah Sitchin is basically parsing to be a map or a representation of the solar system. Kind of walk our audience through this seal specifically, maybe even one step back, what is a seal as opposed to, you know, one of these ancient depictions?

28:59And then walk us through why it's not a depiction of the solar system. I thought your take on this was fascinating as hell. Okay. So a cylinder seal is basically the seal itself, which is what we find in the ground, is a – it's usually made out of bone or stone or sometimes metal. And it's like the shape of a kind of like a little pillar. And what they would do is they would roll it out onto clay to make an impression.

29:32And on the seal going around it would be the identifying mark of the person who owned it. It could be an administrative official. It could be a businessman. Somebody who wanted to like – I guess you could say notarize whatever an object. So they would roll it out onto a piece of clay. Very commonly, you'll find it for like merchants who would – they'd have like a big vessel, a big jar of something, right? And they would put a clay seal at the top of it and then they would roll it out.

30:03So you would know that they – you know, this is packed with freshness, you know, or whatever. These are Jeff's spiders. Do not eat my lunch. Best by 700 BCE. But what you'll often see online or in images is because we don't actually find – the clay that they roll out on, we call that a ceiling or an impression. We call it a ceiling. But we don't find those very often. We just find the seal itself. So what we do is we'll roll it out so you can see what the seal looked like, you know.

30:35So you'll see these images of a long strip usually of the seal rolled out. But that long strip that you're looking at is modern. It's not – it wasn't found archaeologically. We just want you to see what it looks like, you know. So it's not the same thing as a tablet, which a tablet is what they would write the cuneiform on. But anyway, yeah. So a cylinder seal VA-243, which has this image that Sitchin believed was the solar system, has two men on it – actually three men on it.

31:07Well, I shouldn't say men. One's a god and two are probably men. Actually, no. This is one thing I – a little adjustment from what I had in my video. I was talking to a Sumeriologist about this. But the one is a god. So I did say that in my video. And he is presenting to someone a plow, right? It's a very primitive-looking plow, but it's a plow. He's giving them – and we believe this is maybe Ninurta because he is the god often attributed as giving humans the plow technology.

31:38And then what you'll see the other two people, there's someone leading another person by the hand. And the person probably leading the other person, it might be a minor god, and then the final person is probably the person who owned the seal. And in this case, his name was Ili-Elat. There's writing on the seal, by the way, and his name is on there, Ili-Elat. So maybe he was in the agriculture business or something like that. We're not really sure. And there's not a lot of information on it, just his name and so forth. So – but – and then right in front of his face, okay, above his head kind of, is this image.

32:17You'll see it looks like people have interpreted it to be the sun with a bunch of planets going around it. But in fact, scholars believe that these are all stars. And the reason is, first of all, the biggest star there can't be the sun because we already know what the sun looks like in cylinder seals and other art of the period. And it has a specific look. And it has – the sun always has these wavy lines coming out of it. And this one doesn't. This one looks like a regular star that they used to draw.

32:49The other circles don't have points around them. So people think, oh, they must be planets, not stars. But the Sumerians and later Babylonians and so forth often drew stars as just plain old dots. So you'll see that. And what I mentioned in the video most likely is that we're looking at a grouping of 12 stars. And in their astronomy, they used to divide the heavens up into three bands named after a god each.

33:20And in each band, they would have – there were these 12-month stars. And each month, one of the stars would rise in the morning. It would be the brightest star. So probably what you're seeing here is the 12-month stars with one of the stars rising. And that's why it's bigger than the rest. Anyway, that's the best educated guess. But it cannot possibly be a solar system, number one, because that's not the sun. And number two, because they only knew about five planets.

33:48And they also believed that the Earth was flat. So whatever we're seeing here, whatever – in any cylinder seal, whatever you see, it's going to be depicting something that they could observe from the ground. I can't help but, as I'm thinking about this, and I am in no way saying this to belittle the Sumerian culture. But when I think about it as, like, you know, young kids, sometimes they'll give you these, like, drawings of, like, look, I mean, they just – you know, they had a science class or something, and they start painting.

34:19And they're like, look, I made this thing for you. You're like, this kid doesn't know what they're talking about. That sun doesn't have any wavy lines. There's only five planets. What are you, a third grader? This is crap. Get back to me when you actually take a course. Also, you're grounded. Yeah, you're grounded for not knowing anything. So I appreciate that disambiguation for us because I think there's some subtleties there that are valuable. So to shift gears just a little bit, since I feel like you're on a good roll here, just addressing some really key aspects that I think are important to listeners of the show

34:49and people who are really interested in this topic in general, one of the areas that we've had a lot of discussion with different guests, you know, over a long period of time, Spring is here, and look at you. You're still stressed. Allow me to introduce the all-new Acora Plunge Collection, designed to combine performance, durability, and elegance, and available in 15 or 19 feet. It's perfect for training, cooling off, or dramatically floating while rethinking your life choices. And remember, every spa comes loaded, covered, cover lifts, steps, chemical kit, and delivered right to your spot.

35:21You just sit, you just soak, and you forget everyone's name. Dynasty Spas, exit 49 in Athens. Online, DynastySpaStore.com. So just most recently spoke with some different experts on this, is this sort of series of different cataclysms, right? That there are these cataclysmic periods, specifically one of them that we focus on is the Younger Dryas. And, you know, we've had some discussions about how this potentially had some destruction of advanced civilization attached to it, something that, you know, is often synonymous with the destruction of Plato's Atlantis.

35:54Now, I know that's a topic that you've spoken on quite a bit. And so I'm wondering if you could, you know, kind of just walk through what you think about Younger Dryas, Great Deluge, kind of this antediluvian mythos, and just worldwide flood myths in general. And how does that fit into the rest of your work? Well, as far as the, you know, the Younger Dryas and the geology is concerned, I defer to the experts on that. That is not my field. So, you know, what the scientists say happened,

36:25I'm going to go with that because I trust their judgment as knowing what they're talking about. Now things may change in future. I don't know. But I can tell you more about, like, the myths, the legends and so forth associated with the flood because I do deal with writings. Yeah, so, well, first of all, I do think, I mean, it's very interesting that all throughout the world, you've got these flood legends and there's all kinds of flood legends. But that is something, I think, to be expected because people are fascinated by natural disasters

37:00and they write about natural disasters all the time. I think we may be making a mistake if we automatically assume that every single one of these flood legends is talking about the same flood. How do we know it's the same exact event? You know, we don't. And a lot has been made of the similarities between the flood legends, but I should emphasize that the ones that are really similar are the ones from the ancient Near East and from India, I guess you could include them, too, where you have someone building a boat

37:34or an ark or something like that and bringing animals on board and so on. But the other flood legends are very different. They don't have that similar story. China's flood legend doesn't have an ark or anything like that. The American flood legends. And there's another problem, too, and that is many of these flood legends come from oral tradition. They're not written, right? So we have these traditions that have come down, been handed down orally from generation to generation, and they weren't written down. We don't have, like, as old of documents as we have, say, from the ancient Near East.

38:07And how old are they really? The longer something is transmitted, you know, a story, whatever is transmitted, over generations, without being written down, the more likely there is a chance that it's going to get changed. It's going to get altered. You know, you play telephone or whatever. Things get changed as you pass it down by word of mouth. So we don't know how old these legends are. We don't know what the original form of the legend was. Those are all open questions. And so it's very difficult to say, oh, yeah, they definitely all go back to the same single event.

38:42We just don't know that, you know? Sure. So let me, if I could play devil's advocate really quick, because I'm sure some of our listeners at home are wondering this. So, like, okay, so why all flood myths, though, right? Like, we don't, to my knowledge, from my understanding, we don't see a worldwide common denominator of, like, volcano myths or, like, tornado myths, right? And some of these flood myths that are found, like, in Mesoamerica, for example, I mean, they're not apples to apples to the ones found on the other side of the globe.

39:14But they do share some commonalities, right? So I just want to get your take on why would they all point to flood myth as a whole. Just curious. I'm inclined to think that it's because floods are one of the most common natural disasters. Certain regions of the world, they don't get earthquakes like other regions. Certain areas don't get tornadoes like other areas do. Some areas get hit by, well, I was going to say tsunamis, but that's kind of like a flood, too. But anyway, you know, sometimes things are just regional, but a flood, you know, you could pretty much count on.

39:48They do talk a lot about storms everywhere, and everybody gets storms. Another thing to consider, too, and I know this is true with some of the Maya legends, and that is when it finally did get written down and we do have a version of an American flood myth or whatever, it was after the Spanish conquest, and so there's a possibility that they heard the flood legend from the Spaniards and influenced their own legends, you know?

40:19And so a lot of these traditions could be influenced from the biblical standpoint or whatever because they came into contact with people who told them this fascinating story about the Great Flood. So there's that issue, too. Yeah, for sure. So let's continue this conquest into the flood myths a little bit, and more specifically, I want to start looking at some of Plato's work, those being the Timaeus and the Critias, right? So I want to know what your take is on these writings, these two bodies of work.

40:49Are they strictly metaphorical? And also, what is your take on, like, the Egyptian connection there via Solon's time spent with Egyptian priests, and then also how that basically becomes the origin for the Atlantis story? Yeah. Well, as people may already know, these two books are our oldest writings on the Atlantis legend. And so the question comes up, did Plato make it up? Or is it a real story that was going around?

41:20And although I can't give you a definitive answer on this, I can tell you what I think is the most likely scenario. Do it. First of all, Plato is known for making things up. Now, not because he was trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes, because these documents that he wrote, these books, are not intended to be histories. They're not intended to tell you about the true past or anything like that. All of Plato's works are in dialogue form, and they're like little plays of characters talking.

41:52And Plato is not one of the characters, so you never get an authorial voice in his books. The closest you're going to get is from his character Socrates. Now, Socrates was a real person, but in Plato's books, he's just a character. And Socrates will say things. But in the case of Atlantis, it's not Socrates who's telling the story of Atlantis. It's one of the other characters who's just a character. And what gets me is that some people will take – his name is Critias.

42:22Some people take Critias' words as if they are Plato's words directly to us. Like Plato is writing to his audience, and he's telling them about Atlantis. But that's not exactly true. Plato has invented a character who is then telling the story about Atlantis. And we should take it in the same way that we would if we were watching a movie or reading a book, a fictional book, where they say, oh, did you hear about whatever? It's not the author telling us that it's real.

42:52You know, and we know in Plato's other books, he does make things up. He has different stories about the origins of the world and all of this that are, you know, just obviously can't be true. Like, for example, the one where – oh, this is kind of funny. I had a commenter, you know, say, you know, argue with me on this on my YouTube video. And he said – and I brought up this case. Well, he – what about this myth about the origins of the sexes where it used to be that people had like four arms and four legs and two heads, you know, and that they were one – they were all genders combined.

43:34But then they got chopped in half, and that's how you get your males and your females, you know. They were explaining that to be like, that is real, and you should take it. Yeah, I was telling this person that C obviously can't be real, and then he came back and said, well, I believe that too. And not in those exact words, but – Also, the earth is flat.

43:56I want four arms too. I feel like – If you believe that, I really couldn't help him. Don't you feel like we – you know, if that were the case and, like, evolution at some point gave us four arms and four legs and then some horrible chromosomal detachment event separated us from those arms, God, that next generation would probably feel so whack. Like, oh, cool two arms, bro. Yeah. Have fun getting half of what you're going to do today done. You only get half the bracelets. Sorry. And that comes from another character in the story, a different story, and that was Aristophanes, who was a comedian, but anyway, he – the realist Aristophanes was.

44:35But his explanation was – and the reason why – you're looking for your other half, and the reason why some people are heterosexual and some people are homosexual is because when they were together, they either had two males together or a male and a female together or a female and a female, and that's why – but obviously Plato didn't really believe that. Another thing about the Atlantis story that Critias tells is unlike, say, for example, a Trojan War legend, which everybody knew. It was a common view.

45:06Plato didn't make that up. But when people talk about the Trojan War in Greek literature, they just assume you know about it. You know, they, like, mention character – oh, you know who Menelaus was. You know about Agamemnon. They don't really explain it. But here in this, Critias explains, like, as if you never heard about this before. Right. He's describing the Atlantis story as, like, as if you never heard about it before, which is an indication to me anyway that this is the first time it's appearing in print. Okay. Okay. And so is it pretty common then, though, for him to weave in, like, historical figures and historical characters into his bodies of work?

45:41Oh, yeah. Because that's why we see Solon, who we know is an actual person from history who actually did spend time in Egypt. Am I tracking you correctly there? Yes. Right. So just like the real Aristophanes probably didn't tell you the story about finding your other half, he just put it into Aristophanes' mouth. So here he's probably putting the words into Critias' mouth the same way. And it's the same thing it does with Socrates and so forth. He uses real people as characters in addition probably to some fictional characters, too, just to make it more interesting, you know.

46:13And so, yeah, that's just kind of his technique. So I don't think we should take him that seriously. Although I hate to do that because it would be really cool if there wasn't Atlantis. Right, right. So let's talk about Atlantis, right? So, like, that story specifically, when you're looking at it, whether it's through Plato's work or just, you know, different mentions of it throughout history, are you looking at that as, like, straight-up myth that has just been romanticized? And to build on your previous point about the game of telephone, right, it's just being, you know, continuously growing and evolving and becoming more magical? Or is it possible that at some point there was a kernel of truth under the hood here and that it's referring to an actual lost ancient civilization?

46:52Is it possible that sites across the globe, like Gobekli Tepe, are evidence, potential evidence of, you know, Atlantean refugees, so to speak, being displaced and rebooting civilization? What's your take on all those things, Dr. Miano? Well, I mean, as far as Gobekli Tepe is concerned and other places, how would you tell if the founders of that place were from Atlantis? We don't really know what was in Atlantis. We don't have any artifacts from Atlantis that we could say, okay, so here's some Atlantean artifacts, so let's compare it with Gobekli Tepe and see if there's any similarity.

47:29We can't do that. So just to say that is just kind of just pulling it out of a hat, you know, it's not really, there's no real basis for it. I think where a lot of people make that connection is the Younger Dryas impact events and then also that date. So the timing. Yeah, and that date coincides with the date that we get from Plato as far as when Atlantis fell. It's like a lot of people see that as, you know, very, very, like, convenient almost, right? Where it's like, okay, these line up here. So if these Younger Dryas impact events are what created this massive flood.

48:02If that was, oh, there was a worldwide flood. You know, the refugees, the people that came out of that event were displaced. And at some point, they're going to land somewhere and have to reboot civilization. And so I think that's why a lot of people that are subscribing to the Atlantis story as being factual point to sites like Gobekli Tepe and say, okay, is this really what we're seeing here? But I completely understand with what you're saying about, okay, we don't have any, like, source materials to compare it to, right? Yeah, another thing to keep in mind is that, you know, at that time, there are, like, there's a lot of different places that were being inhabited around the world that scholars have identified, including some pretty, like, some large Neolithic sites like Chateauhoyek or Jericho, places like that, Ein Ghazal.

48:52For sure. I mean, they might not have the impressive little, you know, Stila's that Gobekli Tepe has, but Gobekli Tepe isn't, like, I mean, it's really cool. It's a great site. But it isn't, like, you're not looking at, like, a massive city or something like that as far as we can tell. There's not, like, big walls around it or towers or anything like that. It's within the realm of possibility that the locals of the area could have made a place like that. It was within their technological know-how in the Neolithic period to construct a site like that.

49:26There's nothing, like, shocking about it. It's, you know, it's an impressive site, and it has added to our knowledge greatly of that period. But there's nothing in there that we're like, oh, this is impossible. The people of this area could never have made this. How would they do this? Sure, sure. So what about Atlantis specifically, then, Dr. Miano? Like, when you hear references to that, in your mind, is that mythological references? Is it, you know, not an actual ancient lost civilization that's kind of been forgotten from humanity's chronology?

49:57Like, what's your take on that? Unpack that for us, if you could. I hate to be so skeptical, but I'm of the opinion that there wasn't an Atlantis at all. I will say this, though, that after Plato wrote that, it fascinated people, even in the ancient world. And there was a tendency, even among them, to search for it. Like, well, maybe Plato was right, you know? And I do think that people may have looked for it and found places and made descriptions of it that get added to the legend, you know?

50:32I can picture it with a lot of stories, you know? Just imagine, like, a father and son walking along the road and seeing some ancient ruins on the side of the road. And, Daddy, what's that, you know? Yeah. Oh, well, you never heard about the giants that used to live here, or whatever it might be. And the dad would tell them the story, you know? But I think a lot of it's just based on what they found and what they saw. And then they made up stories about what it could be. And that's how a lot of these stories get propagated, you know?

51:04Sure. So kind of one of the last things I want to rip through with you today, which we've enjoyed the hell out of this conversation, thank you so much, is, like, just the Great Pyramids of Giza, okay? So there's been loads of debate around their construction, their purpose, the epoch in which they were erected. And one issue that many people out in the wild have regarding the Great Pyramid is that it was actually a tomb, but that there's—it couldn't be a tomb, right? Because there's a lack of typical characteristics of tomb found within the Great Pyramid.

51:34Additionally, the whole cartouche debacle of Colonel Weiss, that whole thing is sketchy at best. You know, so there's definitely some interesting takes on just, like— Spring is here, and look at you. You're still stressed. Allow me to introduce the all-new Acora Plunge Collection, designed to combine performance, durability, and elegance, and available in 15 or 19 feet. It's perfect for training, cooling off, or dramatically floating while rethinking your life choices. And remember, every spa comes loaded, covered, cover lifts, steps, chemical kit, and delivered right to your spot.

52:05You just sit, you just soak, and you forget everyone's name. Dynasty Spas, exit 49 in Athens. Online, DynastySpaStore.com. What its purpose was? What were we really looking at here? Is there ancient technology at play, or was this thing really just a burial chamber? And so kind of walk us through your work surrounding this site and your take on the theories that challenge the stance of the Great Pyramid having served as a tomb. Okay, yeah. Well, first of all, with this claim that, oh, it doesn't have the characteristics of tombs.

52:41Well, what are the characteristics of tombs? Well, I guess the main characteristic would have to be that there'd have to be a body in there, and obviously there wasn't. There isn't in any of the tombs, pretty much. But there is a sarcophagus, I mean, and we recognize it as a sarcophagus. It looks just like a sarcophagus. So, and I know that a lot of people say, well, maybe they just reused it, you know, maybe they turned it into a tomb later. Like an Airbnb almost for... Yeah, because there's a lot of pyramids.

53:13I mean, there's a lot of pyramids. Now, Occam's razor would say that, okay, you've got all these pyramids, and we know a bunch of them were tombs. It just would make sense, you know, pyramids are tombs. And then the burden of proof would be on people who would say, well, this particular pyramid is completely different from all the other pyramids. Well, why? Why is it completely different? Well, it doesn't have any writing on the inside or art. Well, there are other pyramids that don't have that either. The Great Pyramid is not the only one.

53:44The early pyramids from the Fourth Dynasty don't have writing on the walls. They don't have hieroglyphics inside or art. They just didn't do it at that time. I mean, there's nothing... I mean, it's not like a... You can't use it as a clue if you have other pyramids that do it, you know? And another one you might hear is... Well, I mean, I don't know if you've heard this one, but a lot of people can't think it's just too fast that they could have built a Great Pyramid like that.

54:19It was just... They didn't have the ancient Egyptians, you know, those dirty primitive Egyptians, they couldn't do anything. And so that's kind of how they talk about them. Like, it's impossible. They could not have possibly done that. And yet we can see, you know, the evolution of the pyramid design over time from the Step Pyramid of Djoser in the Third Dynasty to the failed pyramid attempts of Sneferu in the early Fourth Dynasty, the Bent Pyramid, for example. The one at Maedoum that's fallen apart. And then finally he gets it right with the Red Pyramid, which is at an angle that makes it easier to make a pyramid.

54:54But at least it's the first really good, smooth-sided pyramid. And then, you know, a generation later, you start to have the ones at Giza. You can see how they gradually learned how to build a pyramid. And, yeah, it took... Some people think a few decades is too short of a time. I don't. I think... Actually, it was more than a few decades, but... I don't know, maybe 500 years. But it's a fairly long time. I'm looking at how much technology has evolved in the last 100 years here.

55:25Right, right. I mean, even the last two, three years, right? I mean, it's just... It's crazy. Yeah.

55:32So, yeah. I mean, I don't see any reason to doubt it. You might say, well, you know, Khufu's name was probably forged. Maybe. I saw a great video by ancient architects, by the way, on this topic. And it was pointed out, which is a good point, that the name of Khufu on that graffiti, even though it's not official, you know, hieroglyphics, the name of Khufu on there is his full name, which at the time of Howard Weiss was not known.

56:03Right. So, how would he be able to forge it if he didn't know the full name of Khufu, you know? So, that's something to keep in mind as well. For sure. For sure. So... Go ahead. One other thing. So, this pyramid within, I guess, will be within a century after it was built, was called the Akhet Khufu. It was named after Khufu. And we have the Diary of Mirror, a document we found fairly recently, which talks about them taking building materials to the Akhet Khufu.

56:36All right. So, I mean, I guess you could argue, well, Khufu appropriated it. Okay. But it definitely was used by Khufu.

56:46Whether he built it or not, okay. You can argue with me. But it was definitely Khufu's pyramid. Yeah. So, yeah. So, when you look at, like, the passageways within the Great Pyramid specifically, you know, and we see their alignment to certain celestial bodies and whatnot. Like, what do you think is happening under the hood here? Is that the Egyptians just being, you know, very much in tune with the astronomical implications and the components that fit within their frameworks mythologically?

57:19Or, like, have you spent much time looking at those and contemplating those, researching those? What's your take on those chambers and those shafts? My view on the shafts is that, you know, when you can change the time period so that they line up with certain celestial bodies, you're kind of cheating a little bit. You know what I'm saying? So, it's like, oh, you know, you know, the shaft was pointing to, you know, whatever constellation at this particular time period.

57:50Isn't that amazing? Well, that's because you chose a time period where it would line up. So, I think there's a lot of room for fudging there. The fact is, they were both plugged up. I mean, they were covered over. That you, you know, there was no, you know, in other words, they don't go to the outside of the pyramid. So, my thinking is that they were probably just up for air while they were building it, and then after, when they were done, they covered them up. Yeah. That seems to me the most logical explanation for them. Sure, sure. And, you know, we typically, within the conversations that we've had on the show, we go down a lot of rabbit holes.

58:25And, you know, we don't always have the opportunity to speak with somebody that has such a vast understanding and academic background within these sites and these topics. And so, one question that I have for you has to relate to just, like, resonant frequencies and different, you know, energy patterns found across the globe at different megalithic sites. You know, there's been a ton of research going down in the space of just, like, sound in general and the implications that it has to, you know, whether it's making construction more possible, more efficient, and a lot of spaces in that arena that we're only really starting to understand.

59:04Is it, in your mind, like, coincidental that that is a thing that people are pointing to at the Great Pyramid specifically? You know, I know a lot of people out there look at the Great Pyramid as being, like, an ancient power plant, for example. When you're doing your research and you come across that stuff, like, where does your mind go? What are you looking at there? Well, I haven't done a ton of research on that particular subject, except with regard to the claim that the Great Pyramid,

59:34sits at a spot on the Earth where, like, the magnetic forces of the Earth are the strongest or something like that. I was unable to find any scientific study to confirm that. So I'm not even sure where that argument originated, because I couldn't find any science to back it up. If someone could show me a source on this, I would love to look at it, but that's something I haven't been able to confirm. And I think that you've given the audience just a lot of, like, solid things to contemplate, think about, and work backwards.

1:00:10And I think a lot of it ultimately points to, like, if I were to sum up today's conversation in one word, I think it would be context, right? Like, whether we're looking at, you know, the ancient texts of Sumeria, Mesopotamia, you know, like, the Assyrian texts, all the things, or we're looking at the construction of the Great Pyramid and where it sits as it relates to energy across the globe. Like, solid sources, solid citations kind of following the breadcrumb backwards to make sure that we're all pointing at the same source of truth is paramount, right?

1:00:43Is that a solid parsing and understanding takeaway for today? Absolutely. Awesome. Awesome. And we academics are not the enemy. Sure, sure, sure. And also, just to let everyone know, I have never been asked at any time in my career to hide any information from anybody. You know, we're totally free to study whatever we want, to come up with whatever theories we want. We have complete academic freedom to research and study and hypothesize, and that's actually encouraged greatly in our field.

1:01:22So, it's not like there's some kind of big brother telling us you're not allowed to do that or, you know, you're not allowed to say that. I've never experienced that before. That's good to know. Good to know. So, so many things to think about today. Really appreciate you digging deep with a lot of these things. We know you have the world of antiquity on YouTube, but what are some of the other things you're working on, and how can people find the rest of your work online? Well, like, as I mentioned at the beginning, my primary work right now is trying to get my first online course together.

1:01:54And it's going to be, by the way, on ancient Egypt. So, I'm going to do a two-part series on that where I just delve very deeply into Egyptian history from the beginnings all the way up through the end of, well, up to Roman times, probably up to Cleopatra or something like that. And I think that will be a lot of fun. So, look for that in 2020. In the meantime, yes, on my Twitter account, which is Dr. David Miano, you can find – I usually have archaeology news every day, things that are discovered.

1:02:24If you're interested in new discoveries and what archaeologists are finding, I'm usually posting about that. You can also find me at Dr. David Miano on Facebook. And, of course, my big place to go – well, I have my website, davidmiano.net. But I would say YouTube is where I would encourage you to go the most. World of Antiquity is the name of the YouTube channel. And you could also search for my name. I'm sure it will come up. I could use subscribers. I'm trying to get to 1,000 so I can start running ads. For sure. For sure.

1:02:55And we'll make sure that we link back. If you're listening to this episode on Spotify, iTunes, Google Play, whatever, make sure that you hop over to lost-origins.com forward slash media. Hop into this episode's page. And then from there, you'll be able to just scoop links straight to the YouTube channel and to Dr. Miano's website, all the things from there. So, listen, Dr. Miano, this conversation was awesome. CK and I had a blast. We really enjoyed picking your brain. And thank you so much for carving an hour out for us today. This was rad. We appreciate it.

1:03:26It was a lot of fun. Thanks for having me, guys. Anytime. You be well. All right. You too. Cheers. Well. Guys, he's a doctor. Listen to him. I think one of the coolest things about this show is that we get to speak with people who don't fundamentally disagree, like, don't agree with each other on all the things they think. And in many instances, more so than anything, just giving us one more perspective. Um, even if it kind of challenges something you've believed for a long time, I feel like that's what the show's all about. Yeah. Pretty refreshing.

1:03:56Yeah. It was cool. And I really enjoyed, like, just a change of pace, I guess, if that makes sense. You know, like, it's, we explore a lot of, uh, alternative schools of thought on the show. And, I don't know, it kind of felt nice, but also a little weird. I mean, by the same token, we have a bunch of people who come on here and don't really have that alternative of a take on things. They're just, you know, pretty diligent researchers in their own right. It's just, there are certain third rail topics like Anunnaki. There are certain topics like Atlantis that are particularly divisive in this, you know, world, broader world of alternative research.

1:04:34I think it's interesting to see where those lines are versus somebody just being like, Hey, I've seen giant skeletons. Yeah. They were big. They were really big people here. Something's going on. Right. Or, Hey, there are these stones. They're older than you think. And in some instances, it's like, maybe they are just as. Yeah. And so if you enjoyed the conversation, I would encourage all of you to hop over to YouTube, check out the world of antiquity, his channel. You guys will dig it. It's got some cool stuff on there. And you know what? If there's stuff on there that you guys, let's say, don't agree with, um, let us know, throw a note in our bucket and we'll connect you with Dr. Miano and you guys can hash it out.

1:05:09You know, Katy Perry, Taylor Swift style. Did I do that right? I think I did that right. You are so hip. I don't know. I don't know. Your girlfriend will be proud. Oh, fiance now. She'll be proud of me though. She'll be proud of me. She'll be proud of me. Nailed it.

1:05:25So next week, dude, check this out. We have Tom Carey coming onto the show, not to be confused with the younger brother of Jim, but. He did it. He did it. Put it in there. Put it in there. No, but seriously, Tom obtained his PhD in anthropology from the University of Toronto. So, uh, he's an air force veteran and he's held a top secret crypto clearance. Um, he's also been a mutual UFO network or MUFON for our friends who like, um, you know, what are those called? Acronyms.

1:05:55Acronyms. There it was. I was going to say. Acronymophiles. I was going to say a monogram, but that's. All you monograms out there appreciated that joke.

1:06:04None of that was correct. Um, but I think monograms are what people get when they're like really concerned. Someone's going to use their bathrobe, you know? Oh, like, no, this is B O X is not yours. Hands off. Ooh, interesting. Interesting. I see a practical application for that. Indeed. Anyways. Um, so yeah, he, he, he was a, uh, MUFON state section director for the southeastern Pennsylvania, uh, chapter from 1986 to 2001. Um, and he has coauthored several books with his partner in crime, Donald Schmidt, who's

1:06:38not going to be able to join us on the call, but we're going to get him down the road. Um, some of those books include UFO secrets, insight, right? Patterson witness to Roswell children of Roswell, the Roswell incident. And so we're basically going to be talking a lot about clapping them cheeks, aliens people. So we're going to be discussing their latest book, the UFO secrets inside Wright Patterson, uh, the events that began at Roswell at area 51, but ended at Wright Patterson, which is an ultra top secret air force base in Ohio. So psyched to get into it. And we're also going to rip through hanger 18.

1:07:09If you've not jumped down that rabbit hole, buckle up. Yeah. You're, you're going to, you have a good time. It's a lot of fun. So aliens guys. Aliens straight up. So make sure that you guys smash the hell out of that subscribe button. Join us next week as we connect with Tom Carey to talk about all things aliens. And until then I'm Andrew, I'm CK. We challenge you to question everything. We're going to be talking about all things. We're going to be talking about all things. We're going to be talking about all things. We're going to be talking about all things. We're going to be talking about all things. We're going to be talking about all things. We're going to be talking about all things. We're going to be talking about all things. We're going to be talking about all things. We're going to be talking about all things.