Episode 92: Science Communication with Leonardo Feletto

Introduction to Podcast

0:00Welcome to the Learning Scientist podcast, a podcast for teachers, students, and parents about evidence-based practice and learning. Hi, everyone. Welcome to the Learning Scientist podcast. I'm Althea Kaminsky, and I am joined today by Leonardo Fleto, a science communicator, to talk more about science communication, research, and teaching. Welcome, Leonardo. Hi, Althea. Hi, everyone. And it's really nice to be here.

Defining Science Communication

0:31We're really happy to have you. First, I wanted to ask for a clarification for everyone listening. What is science communication? And how did you take your first steps into it? Oh, this is a huge question. And it's also difficult to answer because, and it's not easy to answer because science communication is not just one thing. Let's say it's a, it's one of the lesser known scientific professions. I could define it by, I could define it this way, but basically

1:02it's many different professions in one, because you can be a science communicator as long as you communicate science, as long as you use strategies to talk about science with an audience, with many different kinds of audiences, actually. And as long as you untangle difficult scientific concepts in a way they are understandable for an audience. So if we, if we keep in mind this, a science communicator can be a

1:35teacher, can be a scientist, can be a journalist, and many other, other professionals, such as scientific content creator or, I don't know, a public speaker. So you don't have to get a degree in it. The difference is that right now there are science communication schools that started to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to appear just to help people understand that there are some rules you must follow in order to ensure you're communicating science in a, in a, in a decent way, in a way it is recognized by, by a community.

2:13And so, yes, in some ways, you, you need to obtain a degree. But at the same time, as long as you stick to the science behind, then you, you know, what's, what's underneath. And you, you try to communicate all of this in a way, it is rigorous, then you're a scientific communicator.

Entering Science Communication

2:39So how did you take your first steps into science communication? So I started doing science communication was when I was still a science student at the university. And so this was one of the last year as a science student, I studied biology. So what happened is that I realized I really enjoyed when it came to talk about what I studied with other people. And they told me that I was good at doing it.

3:10And I was good at communicating scientific concepts in a way they were understandable and fun. And so I started there. Then I started doing research because I pursued a PhD in molecular biology. And while I was doing research, I simply went on communicating my science and the science related to it to other students or colleagues or general public.

3:42And so I simply went on with it. And then when I decided to switch to a different career, because at some point I decided to become a science teacher, I simply went on doing science communication. And I use science communication techniques in a hope I can teach better or to make my teaching better.

Overlapping Roles

4:05I'm really excited to talk to you about this since I'm also a science communicator, but right about the science of learning. And when I'm talking about what that means, I also see a huge overlap between my role in the classroom when I'm talking to people about how they're learning and memory works, as well as my role as a researcher when I'm trying to think of like what ideas to ask and what is important and how to communicate those findings. So I see a lot of overlap between those areas. And I guess my experience being a science communicator through the learning scientists doing things like this has strengthened my ability to teach it, but also to interrogate the science, what I'm doing in a slightly different way.

4:46So that's right. So I'm always really interested to hear how other people are approaching it and how you come into it as well. In a way, you're a bridge figure, because what you do is try to put together different people and let them talk to each other and understand each other. So, for example, you need to know the right vocabulary to speak to scientists and understand them and help them communicate what they want to communicate to the broad public. And at the same time, you need to understand what the broad public wants. So it's nice because you're just in between.

5:24Right. Why do you think science communicators are particularly needed or necessary? Because our society is complex and it is growing complex and it is facing complex problems, especially if we look at the future. And since there are many different things that pop in every day in terms of scientific problems and general challenges for the future, such as climate change, the artificial intelligence and so on.

6:00Society is often not ready to face all these problems and they need to have tools even after school, even after they're done with their education, they need to learn throughout their life. And so they need to have science communication. They need to have some figures that help them understand the world. So for this reason, and especially if we consider that science communicators can be many different professionals, I think it's important.

6:35And I think it's important, the fact that there are so many science communicators out there that play their role in schools, in other places, such as in journalism and at the university as professors or scientists. So if everyone can communicate better, then society will turn better.

Direction of Communication

7:02As you were talking about sort of how complex it is and how important it is to be able to explain it, I wonder what your thoughts on sort of like the direction of communication, right? Like as a science communicator, are you always just distilling big, fancy scientific ideas down to a general audience or are there other things involved in that? Well, what you're trying to do, what you're trying to do, you're trying to find a compromise. So at the same time, you can hold the complexity and keep what's behind these ideas, these fancy ideas.

7:40But at the same time, you're trying to do that using analogies or metaphors or activities that can make everything more understandable for a broad audience or a broad public or a class that, I don't know, when you're doing it at school. So you always need to find a compromise to choose the best communication strategy. So I guess this is what a science communicator is doing every day.

8:11And then, I don't know, obviously, you have a way to interact with the public and with scientists and discuss with them in order to ask them if the analogy you're using is correct. And in a way, you're getting better every day and you try to find a better strategy to deliver concepts. Do you have any examples of those specific strategies?

8:43You mentioned a few, right? Analogies, metaphors. As a science communicator and as a teacher, right, what kind of strategies are you using? Do they overlap? Are they different? One of my favorites I use with students when I'm just explaining them, you know, in a front-facing class. So you need to talk to them and you need to retain their attention, which doesn't last long. One of my favorites is using memes or popular cultural references.

9:17And in a way, I need to see the media they consume. I need to see the videos they watch when they scroll their phones and they come back home. I need to be updated on these popular cultural references because they can be useful for my job. And they can be useful to tell a story and to find new analogies, updated analogies, trending analogies that can be used to deliver a concept. One of the last things I used before the summer holidays was the Italian brain rot.

9:55I don't know if you have ever heard about that. But basically, these are some sort of strange lullabies that were popular on TikTok in the last few months. And I just used them to, I don't know, to build up some fancy lullabies about the cell cycle or, I don't know, some math rule that was just more easy to memorize, easier to memorize using those. This is just a silly example. But you can rely on these tools to just make your life easier when it comes to communicate difficult concepts.

Relating to Audience

10:32Right. And from a learning sciences perspective, right, I think what's interesting about that is there's kind of a bit of a fine line, right? You have to be, it's not gimmicky. It can be gimmicky, right, to just kind of throw out common terminology. But what you're saying is that it's actually, you're connecting with people, with students where they're at and putting things in terms that they understand. So it's easier for them to relate it to their life, right? It's helping to make that sort of self-referential leap, which we know is really important for learning and memory.

11:06Science is filled with lots of random facts and things. And very often people will say, when am I ever going to use this? How does this relate to me? So by using memes or other, using common terminology, it helps to put it in terms that they can relate to. And I think decreases some of that distance, right? Because it can be kind of intimidating, especially with science, right? There are these big, fancy theories that very smart people came up with. What do I, as a student, what can I even hope to get from that?

11:40So I think it can be really smart and clever to use popular vernacular and things that are trending, like you said, to be aware of it in a way that means that you understand the meaning of those things as opposed to, like, flashing out. What would you say is kind of, how do you balance that? How do you get, how do you make sure, like, this is a meaningful connection I'm making with people and helping them, you know, a meaningful analogy versus, like, just being gimmicky? Obviously, you always need to, I don't know, exchange opinions with people their age.

12:12So I've got my, I've got my, I don't know, my children of my friends I can always talk to just to ask, in your opinion, does this ring a bell? Is this something relatable or it's something completely, completely inert of? So what should I use, especially when I was, when I happened to prepare scientific conferences for a broad public, I realized, I realized at some point discussing with a friend who does the same job, I realized that all the analogies I was finding were useful for a millennial public, for a millennial audience.

12:57So someone of my age, but then, of course, in an audience, you can, you can run into parents who are my age or even older. And then, of course, the children who don't really understand references to, I don't know, something that was popular in the 90s. So I had to adapt everything and scale down everything and change analogies, change back of us in a way was understandable for everyone. Then, of course, you always need to juggle a little bit because you always risk to not reaching someone, but then you do that for benefit, for the benefits of someone else.

13:40So, yes, it's, it's a bit, it's a bit tricky, but, but then, of course, if you're experienced, you know what to do at some point. Right. Yeah. One, one of the joys and constant struggles of teaching is your audience always gets younger than you. Yes. And, and, and, and the references and I, um, yeah, uh, I've definitely had a lot of experience with that with, I had a preset analogy or a way I relate to when think about something, um, that comes really naturally to me when I'm talking off the cuff.

14:11And then I realized it doesn't mean I teach medical students, but they are now, you know, at least a generation younger than me. And I mentioned something and I get blank stares and I go, Oh no, no. This happened to me a lot when I was, uh, talking to my 19 years old students and I was, uh, talking to them about, uh, how unwrapping the DNA works. And so I use the analogy of, um, you know, the headphones and obviously talking about wired headphones, but then these guys use hairpots.

14:44So they were just staring at me like, uh, what did you say? What are you talking about? Wires? Why would you use wires for headphones? And, uh, yeah, I realized I didn't really deliver the concept, but this happens of course. And, uh, in a way, especially if you know your students, this can be a way to exchange, uh, um, stories with them and, uh, you know, uh, talk to them in a way, uh, you know, at my time, technology was a bit different.

15:14And yes, this is something that can happen. And then obviously if you're talking to an, to, uh, to an audience, uh, and your relationship with the audience is a bit different. And, uh, and of course you want to adopt it, uh, in a way it can be directly understandable. Uh, but then this is also what differentiates, uh, teaching and, uh, communicating science, right? Yeah. I mean, again, to kind of summarize the, the strategies that I'm hearing, right, are things like help people.

15:46Part of your job as both a communicator and a teacher is to meet people where they're at and you help them translate. What may be kind of intimidating topics into terms they understand, right? And there's sort of a translation part of that. The other part is knowing your audience, right? In order to do that successfully, you have to know the way you're going to talk to a 19 year old is very different than the way you might talk to people, um, at like a sort of like town hall setting. Where you've got, uh, people of all different ages and backgrounds who are maybe interested members of a community who want to learn more about a topic.

16:20As well as, but in both settings, being able to turn things in analogies and metaphors is very helpful. But knowing your audience is really key and knowing which analogies and metaphors to use. This is also the reason why I often, uh, realize that many teachers are good when it comes to, um, talk to an audience of students. So to classes, but then when it comes to talk to a different audience, a different audience, like parents, for example, they really struggle a lot. And I realized that, uh, and, uh, realized, uh, it's two different jobs.

16:55It's a different thing. You need to come up with different qualities, different, different knowledge to, uh, handle the two things. Uh, and, uh, yeah, this is also the reason why, uh, they can be seen as two different missions. Obviously you can use some techniques, uh, that are used in science communication for a better teaching. But ultimately teaching is a different thing. And the relations, uh, you build up with students, uh, are just different from the relations that you have in, when you face an audience, uh, or, yeah, uh, the general public.

17:32Yeah. With students, you can build a relationship. You know that you're going to see them the next day or the next week, and that you can have time and space to develop a rapport, to go in depth in the topics. But with science communication, very often it's a one-time deal, right? You're only getting them for just a little snapshot. Yes, yes, absolutely. You just need to, to be ready and to shoot right there, uh, your, your best, uh, your best jokes or your best analogies. And then it's gone. And then this can be an advantage.

18:02It's an advantage when, when it happens to me to invite science communicators over during a class and ask them to talk to students. They, my students are usually enthusiasts and many of them are like, wow, why cannot we have classes, uh, like that every day? And, uh, I, I, I come back to them like, uh, yeah, this is, this was not really a class. This was just, uh, an experience you had together with a, with a, an external professional, but this is just different.

18:35His role is different from mine. Uh, what I'm supposed to do is, uh, teaching you science and, uh, what I teach. Uh, but then of course the relation is different and, uh, at some point I'm also asked to assess them. And this is really when, when everything gets difficult, right? Cause, uh, no one likes when, when, when, when you are assessed or when you're evaluated and, uh, when you need to put in practice everything that has been taught to you. Um, this is the part where being an educator can be really challenging, of course.

19:10Yeah, this is really interesting because I, I, I'm seeing some parallels between this and when I talk to medical students about how they need to be approaching, um, often my students are viewing videotaped lectures. And I have to explain to them that the way that they're going to engage in that is very different because the goals and the structure of this are different than when you watch a really cool, interesting science communication video online. And that's entertaining and cool and interesting. And if you learn one or two facts from that, that was a really good session, right?

19:41That was a really good video. If you were watching your lectures and you only remember one or two things that did not go that well. It's a very different, uh, there are very different goals and very different tools that you'll use, although they can be very similar. Yeah, absolutely. Um, once the science communicator is done with this, uh, presentation, they will never come to you and ask you, so what did you understand? Can you tell me what I, what I said in your words? Uh, and this is, this is stressful, especially for students, uh, right?

20:12And, uh, when, as a teacher, uh, I'm coming back to students and ask for their feedbacks and ask them, uh, what did they understand? Uh, and, uh, and of course, when it comes to evaluate, uh, everything, this, this can be, uh, really difficult. And, uh, this is also why I, I find it funny, uh, that there's a, that I think in the general population, there's a misunderstanding about this point because, uh, I find it funny that many science, science communication videos are filled with comments, uh, from the general public, uh, like, oh, this is really a good teacher.

20:47How can you tell? Like, yes, I agree that they are very good at explaining, but just explaining and finding the, the, the, the, the, the, the good analogies doesn't make you a teacher. A teacher is, uh, a person, a professional that, that, that, uh, that teaches you. And you, so you, you're, you're able to use these concepts for your future life or for your future studies. Uh, and, uh, yes, the science communicator and the teacher can inspire you to study, but a teacher assess you on this.

21:22Science can, uh, science communicator doesn't do that. And we just talked about how a science communicator, uh, again, serves a different role. As a communicator, you, yes, you were trying to educate, but you're also trying to interest and excite and, and energize people. And to do that, you need to be engaging in a very particular kind of way, in a way that I don't think is sustainable. If you were coming in and teaching a class of students every day, right? Like it's a different mode. I'm like, oh my God. Like I watch it because I see the same thing that people were like, oh, you know, we had a guest speaker.

21:56They were great. Right. Or we watched this video and it was so engaging. Like, yes, but it was a one-off or maybe a small series. Like, and it's not the same thing. And I also, one of my areas of interest is an interest in learning and how do you scaffold that? And I think the role of a science communicator is sort of early on in your interest development. Like this is a thing that maybe sparks some ideas for you or excited you. But then as you become somebody who develops that interest in something, you have to go back and re-engage and you have to do the work.

22:30In a science communicator role, your job as a communicator is to do a lot of the work, right? To make the analogies, to find how it relates and to do all of that for the audience. Because again, you've got one shot, it's really limited, and you have to do a lot of work up front. Your goal as a teacher is to facilitate the students at doing that work, right? You're trying to help them develop those skills and that looks really different. It's not as exciting all the time. It can be sometimes, right?

23:01It can and should be, but not all the time.

Teaching and Communication

23:04And so I think... No, not at all. Not at all. Especially when you face, you know, challenging topics or especially when you go through difficult lectures or classes and you need to memorize a lot of things. No, learning is not always fun. Sometimes you make mistakes. Sometimes it's painful. And of course, as a teacher, I'm there to help you. But that means you need to go through that yourself.

23:35While a science communicator breaks down everything so it's easy for you to understand immediately. And then if you want to focus on what you learned, then of course you need to do it by yourself. And at that point, I don't know, you can sign up for university or you can decide to focus on something different in terms of your studies and so on. So both science communicators and teachers are there to inspire you, but then what they ask in return is a bit different.

24:11And this makes the two roles different in a way. So right now that we've kind of, I think, much more clearly defined, like, what does science communication do and what does teaching do? And they are similar, but they are different.

24:26I'm curious to hear how your experience in both areas has influenced each other, right? So what skill set are you bringing as a teacher to your role as a science communicator? And what role as a science communicator are you bringing to your role as a teacher? Well, before starting teaching, I was well aware of what you need to come up with to be sure to have the attention of an audience, such as the examples I gave you before.

24:57And so as a teacher who does science communication, I would say I'm very keen on finding all these strategies and trying to implement them in my classes. So I can be sure I can try to get the attention of my students every day, more or less. And, you know, as you said, every day is a different day. And it's really difficult when it comes to get the attention of your students.

25:30So I would say for the part that is about the contamination of the science communication and teaching and for the opposite. When I started teaching, I was I was really not aware of what it means to teach, which doesn't really mean only delivering the message and delivering the ideas, delivering the concepts. But it also means to understand what you what you have in front, what your students are like.

26:02And you need to to master your your empathy skills and understand them as human beings, understand what they what what they like. And it's really different. It has to do with building up a personal relation with with your students. And this doesn't happen at all when you're just doing science communication because you don't know your public. You just speak to them, you try to engage them, but you don't understand them at this level.

26:35While when when it when it comes to motivate students, you need to understand them and try try to understand how you can push the best out of them. And and it means also when they when they come to you and they say, look, I like you as a teacher, but I don't really like maths. It means it means to help them understand that they are good in other subjects and push them in that direction if this is what they want.

27:05Otherwise, you can tell them, no, I really think you can. Maybe you you don't feel you like maths at the moment, but I believe in you and I think you can do better than this. And yeah, you really need to be empathetic to do all these things. And it's it's it's I think what what what I developed the most as a teacher. Yeah, it's it's there's I think you bring up a point that it's you're developing relationships with real people in real time.

27:38You mentioned before that like there's a and it's a different relationship also because you're going to be assessing them at the end of the day. Right. Like you you that relationship is different than in science communication, where often it's you looking at a screen usually. Right. Whenever I have to make videos and I'm on my own and I have to be it feels a little silly at first because you have to crank up the energy. But there's no one on the other side giving it back versus when you're in a classroom with students. There are real people having real reactions to the things that you're saying and you get to monitor that in real time.

28:10Sometimes that can be, I think, really energizing and helpful and beneficial. You can say something and see that that maybe there's some confusion. OK, let's let's stop. Let's let's talk about it. Right. And you can sort of check that in real time in a way you can't do at science communication. But then also it goes the other way where sometimes it's a bad day and you you you will have bad days as a teacher. Right. And due to factors outside of your control, maybe you're not feeling your best that day. Maybe your students aren't feeling the best that day and that can derail a lesson.

28:43Right. And so it's it's more in teaching. It's real time. It's responsive. There are other people. Science communication. It's like a one time burst of energy that can be highly crafted and and you are much more controlled on your end because you can't be aware of what's going on on the other side of the screen. Who's watching this? And I would say that teaching is more introspective because you really need to communicate with students in a different way. And you need to you really need to expose yourself for what you are in a way it's beneficial for students.

29:21And yeah, as you said, everyone has bad days as a science communicator. You hide this aspect. You don't show that to your audience. As a teacher, it's it's it's impossible. So you need to to find compromises and tell your students, look, this is not the best day for myself either. So let's try to find a solution altogether. So it's this this class in particular will be will be useful for you and and for me as well.

29:52So, yes, it's it's it's more about compromise, I guess, especially teaching. Since I know that you've obviously spent a lot of time thinking about science communication and teaching and research,

Influential Research

30:05I'm curious if there's a piece of research that's been particularly impactful on this journey, whether it's something about research, about science communication, about teaching or even just a piece of science research that you love to talk about in both settings. Right. That you would want to expand. Yes. No, actually, since I usually find these strategies that I can mix to to to to to to to make my teacher better and make my teaching better, what what I found recently is a paper published on on the journals of science communication

30:42that is all about it describes these figures that try to bridge the school environment with the research environment and all the steps they need to follow. So so these these these figures can be teachers, of course, or or other or other people that that can be in between like science communicators and can involve students in meaningful activities. So then they they can come up with with skills that can be useful for their critical thinking.

31:13And, you know, you know, you know, citizen science projects that can help them get into research as just citizens and then finding finding more about this world and know more about this world. And this study was done by Germany, by German educators and was about two experiences in particular in which students were involved in two different research projects. And it talks about the advantages of involving students in these activities and let them talk directly with professionals in research so they can experience firsthand what what it means to come up with solutions

31:58so they can use to, you know, to just lead a simple research project. And at the same time, they can use the same approach in school and in other contexts and they can they can they can a method out of it and use it in different situations. And yes, this was published in February 2025, if I'm not wrong, by Kiesling and colleagues. And I guess I can send you the link over so it can be published in the references of this episode of Learning Scientist.

32:34Yeah, that would be great. We'll post it a link so that when people come to listen to the podcast, they can look at that article. So is this, so about involving students in science communication, is this to... Yes, it was both actually. It was a project that was that was more related to research. Another one in which that was taking place during a Darwin Day in which students were asked to read papers with the help of a teacher, of course, reading papers, reading papers and finding information that they could adapt to a general public.

33:13And, you know, in a way they can deliver firsthand ideas and concepts that they found in scientific papers so they can be understood by the public. And this was done in a science communication project and in a more research oriented project. And this is also what I try to propose to my students during the school year. So I found analogies on what I do in my daily job, basically.

33:44Very cool. Because, again, as you're talking, I'm thinking about how I use these skills in my teaching. And when I get working with the medical students, part of what I tell them is that their job when they become doctors is like they will be science communicators. So they don't just need to know the information so that they can be good doctors and understand how the human body works, but also to be able to understand it, to explain to their patients. Right. How would if you that you you will need to communicate these ideas to people who maybe don't have the same background as you do in terms of learning, but they're really interested.

34:20They really want to understand what's going on with them. So how are you going to translate these ideas for them and using that as sort of a teaching or a learning tool for them to think about, oh, how would I explain this in terms that, again, an interested but sort of uninformed public would want to be able to understand or would be able to understand this concept. And this is part of the reason why universities at the moment are proposing professionals to get in contact with science communication and science communicators so they can exchange opinions and ideas and, you know, get some skills that can be useful for their for their jobs to communicate with the public and to help them understand difficult concepts.

35:05What advice would you give to educators or researchers who are interested, right, maybe listening to this and thinking science communication, it sounds cool. How do you get started? Where do you go? Are there resources? Are there, do you have any tips for how to like dip your toes in? Not to be afraid of experimenting, I guess, because as a science communicator, as I said, since it's not a clear, well-defined profession, you need to experiment a lot, find your own niche and get in contact with many different professionals that can help you build up your own identity in this field.

35:47And this means try a lot of things, which is what a researcher is doing all the time. When researchers need to ask, to answer a particular question, they try many different things all at once and they try to evaluate what's better to find the right answer. So I think you want to use this approach to find what works for you as a science communicator and what helps you telling the story you want to tell in the best way.

36:25But then, yes, of course, you need to spend a lot of time mastering communication skills and public speaking skills. But then, of course, if you make your own scientific content for a YouTube channel, you don't really need to face the public, but you need to spend a lot of time in front of your camera just to find the best settings and the best way to deliver concepts. So you just need to experiment. Be flexible and enthusiast about learning, I guess.

36:58I would agree. I think enthusiasm and a willingness to experiment is incredibly helpful. We get questions all the time about like, oh, you started a blog. How do I do that? What do I do? We say like, we hear some stuff we tried. There are, I know, lots of resources for science communicators. Like we said, there's best practices in terms of communication skills, being clear, being direct. There are some tricks of the trade, depending on the platform that you're talking on, in terms of how to get, how to kind of like optimize things.

37:30If you're writing a blog, you need pictures. If you're delivering short form content versus long form content, right, there's lots of things I think about. Absolutely, yeah. Many of those things are things that you kind of learn along the way as you're experimenting and trying. But again, in general, not to be afraid of making mistakes and constantly learning and trying different things, I guess. And why not asking suggestions to your own teachers or other professionals who already work in the field?

38:01And so, yes, it's all about networking and communicating with other people. Well, thank you, Leonardo. This has been a really interesting conversation. I appreciate your time coming to talk to us today. This episode is funded by listeners like you. To support our work and gain access to exclusive content, visit our Patreon page at www.patreon.com slash learningscientists.