Episode 96: Believing in Yourself with Myriam Da Silva

Introduction to Podcast

0:00Welcome to the Learning Scientist podcast, a podcast for teachers, students, and parents about evidence-based practice and learning. Welcome back, everyone, to the Learning Scientist podcast. I am so excited to be joined today by Miriam Da Silva. Miriam is an entrepreneur, an AI ethicist, a writer, and an artist driven by a singular mission to inspire people to believe in themselves.

0:30I love that so much. Through her work, she empowers audiences to embrace their unique gifts as a force for contribution, leading lives filled with meaning, purpose, and fulfillment. Miriam is an educator at heart and a serial learner. So she's studied international business, didactics of languages, holistic medicine, educational neuroscience, a little bit of everything, it sounds like. Um, she's the CEO of Check It Learning and president of the Check It Foundation and is pioneering a new vision for education grounded in human flourishing.

1:03She's the creator of Clio, the world's first AI neuro mentor designed to support teachers and students through the science of learning, something that we love here. And then, um, Miriam's also worked with global organizations on AI ethics and child center design, including UNESCO, IRAs, International Coalition, Shaping Responsible AI in Education. She's featured on Women in Power, an Inside Success TV series highlighting leaders who are redefining impact and innovation.

1:36Finally, Miriam's the author of a book that's coming out called The Black Sheep, um, which is a call to reimagine education so that every student's uniqueness becomes their strength, empowering them to live, lead, and contribute with lasting impact. So, Miriam, I love everything that you do. It is so aligned with everything that I believe in. And I'm so excited to talk to you today and particularly to talk about, um, belief and this, this concept, this idea of belief.

2:06So, welcome, welcome. Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here. It's always a pleasure to have conversations with you.

Concept of Belief

2:13So, um, I want to get started with sort of the concept of belief. So, you know, I've, I've spoken a few times. I've written about it on our blog about, um, self-determination theory from Desi and Ryan. And in particular, there's this part of self-determination theory that is competence, which I usually link to Bandera's self-efficacy, right? This idea that, um, I believe that I can be successful at any given task at any given time,

2:45right? It's, and so it is kind of like a belief in myself. Um, how is that similar or different from, from this concept of belief that you're trying to champion? How is that different from, from, you know, hope or self-efficacy or confidence? How are those things related or different? You're right to mention that because, uh, the, what we hear in school mostly is the word, uh, self-efficacy and self-efficacy is really the ability, uh, to succeed at a

3:16specific task, uh, or a particular skill or achieve a goal. Uh, and it's very much situational. Let's say it's like you can complete, you believe that you can complete a marathon, for example, or that a student can pass a test. Uh, so let's say that self-efficacy, you are really in the realm of doing. Uh, you can have, uh, high self-efficacy, for example, for learning a language, and you can have low self-efficacy, for example, for public speaking.

3:48So really depends on the situation and the context. So on, uh, the other hand, uh, belief, it's that deep rooted story, uh, that's often below conscious awareness that you hold about yourself, about others, and, uh, and about the world in general. So you are more, let's say, it's more about who you are and what you believe it's possible for yourself. So you are more, let's say, in the field or in the realm of being and, uh, becoming.

4:24Okay. I see. So, um, let me try to ask you some more questions about this. So that to me sounds more like self-esteem than self-efficacy. I agree with you. I often sometimes say, like, my self-efficacy on, um, Monday afternoon is a whole lot higher than my self-efficacy on, like, Friday afternoon when I'm just, like, done with the day, right? So you're right. It's very situational. But is, is belief then somehow distinct from self-esteem, which is sort of that, like, underlying,

4:55just, like, my opinion of myself? It's connected to it. Uh, it goes beyond that because, as I mentioned, uh, belief impacts. It's, it's not just about yourself. It's also about, uh, your relationships with others and, and how you, you see the world. So it's, it's self-esteem, but it goes beyond it. Okay. I see. So it's like when self-esteem would be one part of belief. Okay. Totally.

Belief in Education

5:22Yes.

Belief in Education

5:22Yeah. Okay. All right. So most of our listeners are in the field of education, um, and so I always want to ground these conversations in what's going to matter for them, right? On a day-to-day basis. So I want to talk a little bit about how our school systems currently sort of create beliefs, um, positive or negative, right? Like what, how are things currently set up to make kiddos believe like I am enough or

5:58I'm not enough. And then, um, after that, I kind of want to talk about like, what can we do about it? Like, how can we make this better? So let's just start with that first question.

Current School Systems

6:07Like what, what is, what are we currently set up to do in a, in a good or a bad way? So I love that too. You, you bring the student first. Um, I mean, we are all in education to make an impact, to make a difference in students' lives. So you can be, uh, amazing as a teacher, uh, you, you know, if the student does not believe in, in themselves, no matter what you're going to be teaching, he's not going to reach, or you can have the best learning, uh, strategies. You can be training neuroeducation. And you can have the best support in school, in your family, uh, around you.

6:42If the student does not believe, uh, they can do it, then nothing matters. So we can see how foundational belief can be and how little this is really talked about in schools. Even though everything that we do as an educator actually shape the beliefs within our students. And we know, like through, uh, Carol Dweck's, uh, uh, work, uh, how much, for example, uh, if you believe mistakes are part of a learning opportunity, uh, well, how are you going to

7:19perform, how are you going to be motivated, how resilient you're going to be, uh, is going to vary, uh, if you have a fixed mindset or a growth mindset. So we can see how important that is, uh, but how little, we're not that intentional, let's say, uh, as educators or even as an educational system. On the contrary, I would say that our school system is very much based on external validation and not so much on addressing that inner world, uh, uh, that, uh, really shapes beliefs and

7:54the behaviors and the mindsets of our students. Yeah. So when we, I, I kind of come back to my own experience, right? So I have a nine-year-old and a six-year-old and, um, based on a whole lot of early experiences, I can say that my nine-year-old often has some issues with belief, right? Um, and it's led me to start having a conversation. Um, there's a, there's a lot of work right now. I feel like it's a, I don't know, it's a, it's a conversation right now about this, this

8:26directionality between motivation or belief or however you want to say it and, um, and, and performance. And right now a lot of science of learning folks are rightly, like it is correct to say that if we can give people lots of low stakes opportunities to be successful, so we do a lot of retrieval practice with them, that's going to lead to higher self-efficacy, to higher possibly belief in themselves. And I don't disagree with that, but I also fully have seen in my own kiddo what you're

9:01talking about, which is, but how do we really even get them to engage in that? And how do we get them to even believe that the reason that they were successful on that had something to do with them as a person, right? There's this fundamental underlying viewpoint, like how they're perceiving their entire situation that matters here. And so it becomes to me, the cyclical thing that without that fundamental belief and motivation

9:31to push them into those situations where they're going to be successful and they're going to perceive that success as them doing it, you're not going to get that back into that motivational state, right? The, in order for it to feed around, you've got to have that, that belief to begin with. Does that translate with what, what you're saying? Yes. There is so many things that I love about what you just said. The first thing is like, you, you're absolutely right. Belief, it's not something that you have or something that you lack.

10:05And it's not something that you get, you know, through encouragement and a lot of praising. It's something that you earn. So we need as educators and in schools to create opportunities for students to actually earn that where, you know, they try, they struggle safely with support, where they connect progress to effort, where they contribute. And that's the type of experience that actually creates belief.

10:40So it's kind of like a by-product of the experience that you shape. And in our society, and we see that, you know, with social media, AI, and definitely in our school systems, we really focus on what we can measure. And how do you measure belief is very difficult because so much of it is, is really about the inner world. So it's, you know, if what you, you don't measure, you don't focus on.

11:14And as a consequence, we don't know how to address that in, in, in schools and in our classrooms. And you also mentioned something that I really like. You, you, you, you kind of like compared in a way, like the, your two children and that's correct in the sense that, uh, you, you can have two children having the same experience, but building a complete different story. So the belief that you have about an event, the, the, it's, it's highly personal.

11:46And how do you, how do you address that? I mean, uh, an entire class can go through the same event and have completely different beliefs about it. So it's also a challenge that, uh, we have to face in our schools. And, and we know this, we know this from, from the, the science, right? So we can look at attribution theory, right? And the idea that, um, the same event can happen. And some people are going, my son is going to look at his success on a test and he's actually

12:16going to have this like self-deprecation bias where he's like, well, they just gave me something really easy because he has this underlying belief system about himself, which it breaks my heart, but it's also true. And I can look at his early experiences and see where that came from. And that leads to all of this. You're right. It's, it's all this internal stuff that we can't always see on the outside where I know he has this internal dialogue that says that, right? That says, um, Oh, if I'm successful, it's just because they gave me something that was

12:50easier than what they gave to other people or, or whatever. Right. And so I, I'm wondering like, what do we do about that?

Helping Students with Belief

12:58How do we, how do we help? How do we fix it? If we, so just as you said, it's what we can observe are the things that we tend to focus on. If we can't see belief, if we can't see these things playing out, we don't know what those inner thoughts are of kiddos, how do we help? This is a wonderful question. And, uh, I love that you, you, you highlighting the feeling of powerlessness that we feel as educators when, you know, we want to help. And you said the word fix, and that's really like in education, we kind of fixers, you know,

13:32in a way, and there is nothing that really we can fix, but what we can do is actually build that awareness, uh, within our students and give them the, the, the agency to do something about it. And it starts with awareness. Uh, um, researchers, uh, show, uh, I think it's Flavel that mentioned that, uh, emergence of metachonition starts between, you know, seven years old and nine years old. But some even say that, you know, it can start as early as three years old with like pre-awareness.

14:06And, uh, a researcher, I think it's, uh, it's, uh, uh, from Harvard, I think her name is Lily, uh, Scott Howard, uh, actually says that, uh, the, the best time to start that work is actually in elementary school. You know, when the, the, the, the inner thinking, I use inner thinking because it's more inclusive. Uh, a lot of us have that inner voice, but other, uh, some other people like have, you know, images like Einstein, for example, Temple Grandin.

14:37So that's why I use, uh, the word inner thinking. Yeah. Uh, but so inner thinking starts at that age. And, uh, uh, that researcher, uh, Scott, uh, Howard Scott was saying that, uh, we can start, uh, very early, uh, by bringing that awareness of that voice, uh, that voice or image in your head, uh, that is trying to make sense of the world. And why does that matter so much is because a lot of people, even adults, uh, think that

15:11because they, they, they hear or see, you know, these thoughts that they assume they must be true because, you know, they're coming from me. And so teaching, uh, students, not only to notice, but also inquire, question, and even, uh, reframe, uh, these thoughts is extremely powerful. And that's something that nobody talks about really. Yeah. Um, this is so interesting. So as we're having this conversation, I'm, I'm like, ideas are sparking and I'm like, are,

15:43are we really talking about just like doing cognitive behavioral therapy for elementary, for all elementary students? Is that, is that kind of what we're talking about here? So she was suggesting like, of course, very age appropriate interventions, uh, like for example, um, even talking out loud about it, you know, about your own voice as a teacher and be like, oh yeah, I forgot my book today. My brain says, what was I thinking about? And then, you know, saying like, oh yes, but I'm going to tell my brain that, you know, it

16:16happens to everybody. Mistakes happen to everybody and that's not a big deal. And so by first of all, acknowledging that you too have images or a voice in your head, uh, you're like normalizing it. Uh, you, you're bringing light into it, but also, uh, um, not accepting everything that you hear as being, you know, an absolute true and choosing empowering thoughts for yourself. I mean, when you think about the fact that we have, uh, uh, 95% of our thoughts are the

16:50same every day and 80% of the, uh, of these thoughts are negative, which means, I mean, it's crazy to think about it. Like eight out of 10, uh, thoughts that you have are negative. You wouldn't even stand someone next to you that's having eight of 10, you know, sentences being negative, but somehow that's what you're dealing with every day. Imagine if you believe these thoughts, how much of an impact, how different your life can be, uh, if you question them rather than just accepting these eight thoughts and teaching,

17:26you know, students and that researcher, it was quite amazing. You can tell she was a former elementary students, uh, because, you know, she was using metaphor, like, you know, Oh, the, the, the, the, the worry thoughts, uh, the, the anxious thoughts in my head says this and, and, you know, reframing it. Well, that is definitely going to make you, you know, a huge impact in, in our kids' lives. Yeah. It reminds me, um, this is totally random, but roll with me here.

17:57Um, I don't know if you've seen, um, the Disney movie Luca. It came out not that long ago, but there's this scene, there's this scene in the movie where, um, there's two kids and they're playing together. And, um, one of them is really, really scared to do an activity. And the other one says, Oh, that happens to me all the time too. And I just tell myself silencio Bruno. So I'm telling the voice inside my head to be quiet so I can be brave. And, um, I say that to my kids all the time.

18:30I'm like, Oh, just say silencio Bruno. That's not real. Right. Um, because of that. So I, I, nice little connection there. And, uh, this is also very random, but I could see that being a great, like educational activity, like show kids this little video in class. And then you can have a conversation about that inner voice and that you do have a choice to tell it, to be quiet or to reframe it or whatever. Um, I think that's fantastic. I love this. I was not aware, but I think even showing it to students, uh, and, you know, using it

19:03as, you know, a base, I think it's, it's very powerful. And of course, as the students, uh, um, grow older that we can use other tools, uh, as right, exactly, exactly. So I was thinking as an elementary level, that works really well, but I also love this idea of modeling it. It's something that we talk about a lot of times with like regulation for kiddos, that if you want to teach a child to regulate their emotions, so much of the work done to regulate ourselves is done internally. But trying to externalize that to tell them mommy's taking a deep breath right now because

19:37I'm feeling overwhelmed. It's the same kind of thing that you're saying right now, which is, um, you know, I'm, I'm having this thought right now, but that's not really true. Is it so, right. But like trying to take what is internal and make it more external. It also kind of requires us as adults to check ourselves in order to do this. For sure, for sure, absolutely. And, you know, it also somehow like encourages us to be vulnerable. And I mean, that's how you, I mean, that's the power of relationships.

20:10You know, you connect with someone that feels deeply human. And sometimes even as teachers, we can be a little performative. You know, we kind of like block our flaws and just focus on, on content. And I think, you know, it has really deep value of just modeling or, you know, self-doubts or fears or struggles and not just the ones that, you know, the big ones, you know, all in life, you know, it was difficult for me to do this, but even in our inner dialogue.

20:40Right. And that like day-to-day struggle that we all have. I mean, it's not like we don't, but to just make that a little bit more obvious to students so that they don't feel maybe as alone in their own struggles. Absolutely. Yep. Love it. So one thing that I'm always concerned with is that, you know, you mentioned Carol Dweck earlier and talking about growth mindset. And a couple of years ago, that felt very sad-like, right? That it was just the hot new take and we're going to talk about this for a year.

21:12And then you come to the next thing and it's like, oh, this is the next new thing. In fact, even the science of learning, people are starting to feel like that's all that it is, even though fundamentally, no, it's, please, it's science. It's not a fad. It's always been true. You just now saw it. It's not a fad. What do we do to make people, I mean, especially with something like belief that is a little, it can feel a little touchy-feely, right?

21:43How do we make it clear that this isn't just the next thing? How can we make it something that's really ingrained in our culture as opposed, so if people are listening to this and they want to take it back to their schools, they want to do something with this, how can they do that in a way that's going to make a lasting impact and not just something that we're doing today, that we're doing this school year,

Making a Lasting Impact

22:07whatever?

Making a Lasting Impact

22:07Well, I mean, I strongly believe that incorporating neuroeducation in teachers' preparation is the way to go. I mean, obviously, it's science. So I think it's the best way. We're not talking about mysticism here or that positive thinking vibe. It's really rooted on how the brain works and how learning happens. And we all want to make an impact.

22:40I mean, we went to education for that purpose. If we can play with the brain rather than against it or even just by not knowing about it, then I mean, why not, right? And I would say that the issue is, and this is not just a U.S.-based issue because I graduated from a university in France in education. And I never had, you know, any science of learning or neuroeducation class. I mean, I had to figure it out, you know, on my own.

23:12I had my own experiences as a learner. As you know, I went back to school several times. And because I was always very busy, I kind of like experienced things. And I was like, okay, oh, that seems to work. But if we can train our educators on how the brain really works, and we can also empower students with that knowledge and these skills, then we're all working, you know, we're all maximizing our potential, basically.

23:44And that's what we're talking about. And I know our education system is based on performance, it's based on ranking, it's based on competition, unfortunately. But really, if we work with how learning happens and what, you know, your own capacities are, then you're not fighting anybody. You're just becoming the best version of yourself. And that's what, you know, brings fulfillment in your life. Yeah, and I think that fundamentally, that's what educators really are seeking, right?

24:18As you said, I don't know a single educator who got into the field because they were going to just make so much money, right? Like, that's not what we, right? You get into education because you care. It's a field full of superheroes. And so fundamentally thinking about what is not just going to bring learning for students, but what's going to bring happiness and life fulfillment and learning, right? Because that's really what we're talking about here is that if we focus on belief, what's

24:52happening is that students are, they are building that self-esteem, that drive to keep moving forward, which is fundamentally going to lead to greater achievement. So it's going to lead to both, both and. We get to make them happy and help them to learn and succeed. So that's a really, really good thing. I guess that's the bottom line. It's good. Absolutely. And I think once, you know, we train our educators in neuroeducation and, you know, they see the

25:29value, that's also something like that needs to be taught to students. It's same as belief, like we need to empower students with that type of knowledge. First of all, because that's how you ensure success in life. I mean, it's not about school. It's about how you leverage every experience for growth and for contribution. And that's something that they need to be able to do, like beyond school. And also, I think, because students have the misperception about the fact that if they struggle,

26:03and not just about mistakes, but struggle in general with their learning, something's wrong with them. And they need to understand the science behind it, that learning is not meant to be easy. I mean, you need to grow and that growth requires effort. And so that's the, and the byproduct of all of that is belief. Because if you believe in your capacity to overcome setbacks, to, you know, make mistakes

26:36and learn from it. And actually your brain grows, even if you don't learn from it, just by making a mistake and by, you know, going through experiences, well, you're going to build self-reach because you're going to be, you know, you're going to be self-reliant other, you know, rather than relying on grades, on likes, on comments, on social media, on all that external validation. And that capacity, that understanding of what you are truly capable of doing, of being,

27:12and of becoming, it's what's going to ensure long-term success. I love that. So Miriam, you made one comment there. I love everything that you're saying. You made one little comment there that I just want to note real quick, because there is kind of this misconception out there that sometimes folks talk about with the brain growing. And it's not necessarily wrong. It's just that it's a sort of a simplification of what's happening. Absolutely, when we make a mistake and then we correct that mistake, that is feedback from

27:47retrieval practice, and that aids learning. We have so much robust research to show that. Um, but what's happening in the brain at that moment isn't necessarily like your brain getting bigger. In fact, there's some decent research out there that it's not necessarily a correlation with brain size that has anything to do with anything. But it is that we're making stronger links between material in the brain. Um, and so just kind of wanted to point that out for our listeners. But, um, that was not the main point of your message.

28:19And the overarching message is really, really fantastic. Okay, so we're just about out of time here, Miriam. I want to leave it open for you.

Final Thoughts and Call to Action

28:30Do you have anything else that you would just love the opportunity to tell people right now? Like something, anything else that you didn't get a chance to say today or something that you wish everybody would go back and do after listening to this? Because I think, as you mentioned, um, you are in a better position, uh, to, to help if you experience it yourself. Belief is never going to be a subject that's going to be taught in schools. And that's not the point.

29:01Uh, everybody is responsible, uh, really for, uh, helping, uh, students to believe in themselves. I mean, it's every teacher's mission to do that. And the, the way that they can do it is first of all, to openly discuss, uh, uh, these, the, the, these thinking process that's happening, uh, giving more space to the inner world of each student, uh, normalizing it. Uh, and, but also, uh, because stories are not just made by thoughts, they're made by emotions.

29:36And I would say how important that would be if we can have more learning experiences that encompasses, uh, um, emotional experiences, like such, such as, oh, gratitude and joy and learning does not have to be only in the brain. They can be like emotional experiences. Actually, we, we, we know that, uh, uh, you need to be able to process emotions, uh, uh,

30:08to, to learn effectively. So I w I would say like to educators, uh, I mean, you don't need to do anything else that you are doing, except I would say it's a shift in perspective and, and more normalizing that conversation about how much the story that each individual in the classroom, like if you believe, if you believe that you can, or you believe that you can't while you write either way, you're going to, you're going to attract, our students are going to attract

30:41what they believe is possible. So if we want to make a really strong impact, we have to help our students to believe that they can. And that's, as I mentioned earlier, that's by crafting experiences that builds that belief within themselves. So when we design, uh, uh, assessments, like let's keep that in mind. Like what is it that really matters in the longer? Is that really, you know, the, is, is it just the, the, the knowledge about the contents or

31:14even the applied knowledge, the skill around the contents, or can we go beyond that? How can we enforce in the students that believe that, you know, everything is possible and they just need to apply themselves to it day after day? Yeah. I love that so much. It also reminds me of, um, the research on, um, exam wrappers, which is just this like metacognitive activity that you can do after an assessment. Like, of course, the goal of education is sort of, um, on, on some fundamental level.

31:50It is knowledge acquisition. It is like learning. That is what things are designed to be. And especially in a world with so much standardized assessment, of course, folks are going to be measuring knowledge, but to make sure that we're taking a second, even if we are assessing knowledge to also stop and say, Hey, what did you do to prepare for this? You know, how does this make you feel and how could you prepare for it better next time? Still helps a student to see that they have agency in this and that it's not about necessarily

32:25who they are as a person, but what they do and that they do have the capacity to do more, um, to learn and to be them best, their best selves. I think, um, there, there's a lot that we can do there, um, to surround that. I'll see if I can find an, and add to the show notes, some of the, the other blogs that we have on those topics as well. Um, thank you so much for being here today, Miriam, and for sharing with us. Um, it's, it's so wonderful to learn with you.

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