Episode 91: Executive Functioning in Special Education with Sean McCormick

Introduction

0:00Welcome to the Learning Scientist Podcast, a podcast for teachers, students, and parents about evidence-based practice and learning. All right. Welcome back to another episode of the Learning Scientist Podcast. I'm very excited to be joined today by my new friend, Sean McCormick. Sean does a lot of work with executive functioning. And so today we're going to have a really nice conversation about what that really means

0:33and how executive functioning is important both for kind of academic performance, but especially for individuals who are kind of in the special education population. So I'm excited to dig into this. So for a little background, Sean is an AmeriCorps and Teach for America alum, we can say. I suppose. And then he spent about five years working in public education in the Buffalo and Bay

1:04Areas. And now he works as an executive functioning coach. So we'll talk a little bit about that here in a bit. So welcome, Sean. Thank you so much for joining me today. I'm delighted to be here. Thank you, Dr. Nebel, for having me as a guest. I look forward to chatting with you.

Executive Functioning

1:19So let's just start with this general idea of executive functioning. Most of our listeners are educators, so likely they have heard of executive functioning. But we know from the research that it is not always super well defined and people might be talking about two different things. So let's just talk about your framework for executive functioning so that folks know what we are really talking about today. So I like to start by differentiating between executive functions, things like cognitive

1:49processing, working memory, the ability to play with information, these cognitive processes that are somewhat, I would say, to some degree fixed versus executive function skills, which can be developed and worked on, like developing your ability to do long range planning or externalizing your goals. I've worked with a lot of parents and educators who are like, what is it? So the first thing I usually say is, it's your ability to have a long term goal or, you know, some type of larger goal, and then to use your skills and abilities to find a way to reach that goal.

2:20And so then they say, well, what are the skills? And I say, I come up with, I came up with this acronym called positive to explain it because there's so many potential skills. But the ones that I've primarily noticed are essential for students to reach their goals are what I call positive skills. So planning, organization, self-awareness slash self-management, inhibition, time management, initiation of challenging tasks, visualizing outcomes, and evaluating priorities. So I like to say, like, those are probably some of the main ones. Of course, there's other little ones here and there.

2:50But if you can kind of like start to develop those, you're going to you're going to do better on your kind of big goals and executive tasks.

Working Memory

2:57So let me ask you a question. To me, as a cognitive psychologist, not coming from education world where executive functioning is discussed more frequently, it sounds to me like what you are saying is we have working memory and that is basically what executive functioning is. And then separate from that, we have what the things you can do with working memory. Does that ring true or are they separate but related? Yeah, I would expand the definition of executive functioning to say more than working memory.

3:30I'd say cognitive flexibility. And I know that you have you and the learning scientist team have, you know, real depth of knowledge around memory. So I'm sure there's things I'm going to learn here, too. But my understanding, especially after working with a lot of students with autism and ADHD, is that that cognitive flexibility piece, like being able to like, you know, pick up on nonverbal cues or, you know, a little there's there's a lot of other factors. It's kind of one way I explain it is that the human brain is receiving, I think they say

4:00about 50 million bits of information per per second. But we can only cognitively process a very tiny, small fraction of that. So we have to trust and rely on the skills we've developed to help us sort through all this this stimulus, all this information. And so that includes memory. It includes, you know, being able to determine what's salient and what's not. And so those skills are hard to pin down perfectly because they're also different, I think, with each individual in terms of how they process stimulus.

4:33So I don't know if that helps nail it down further or expands it a bit. But that's that's how I see it. Yeah, so I think I told you, I don't think the listeners are necessarily aware that I have a son with autism and we're currently seeking evaluation for my daughter as well. And part of that is like one of the biggest hallmarks for both of them is that sort of like cognitive inflexibility. It's the idea of like, no, no, I have to finish this task before I can move on to the next

5:03one or I'm really like hyper focused on getting this right and not being able to pivot easily between different cognitive demands and different different stimuli. So that that's how I perceive that anyway in seeing them and how they work with the world. Right. Yeah. And would you say to kind of toss it back to you, would you say that is like to extend that understanding? Right. So if a child is incapable of transitioning to a task, which is probably like the primary

5:36goal to be overall successful in school rather than just completing one task, if they're not able to add it, I don't want to say adequately, but basically manage a multiplicity of demands, is that working memory focused or would you say that's like maybe a broader executive function kind of challenge? I'm curious how you would you would label it. It's a good question because, I mean, in I have always characterized that as as very

6:06much working memory related, that tasks of inhibition I characterize as living in working memory a bit. But I also think in the best way possible, we are talking theory and like the practicality of it. I don't know that it matters whether we're just talking about working memory or we're talking about something else because one of the things that we know from the research, again, is that training for any of like just talking about working memory training, it's not very

6:39effective unless you're really focused on the individual skills themselves, right? So the ability to transfer from one situation to another, to go from doing well on a test of working memory where you might have to memorize a bunch of numbers or something, doesn't necessarily translate well to that like cognitive flexibility that I'm talking about for my daughter who needs to stop working on math and now go to lunch, right? Those are two different things.

7:10And and we don't have very good training transfer between those skills. So I think whether we're talking about working memory or we're talking about some some skills that live just outside of working memory, I don't know that it functionally matters so much as it's an important theoretical conversation. Does that yes, and actually, you remind me of a definition I share with educators, sometimes when I present, which is, they ask, what is executive functioning? And one of the definitions I give is executive functioning or using your executive function

7:45skills is using skills that exist outside of the domain of your automatic psychological processing. So we we have a lot of automatic, automatic, automatic, automatic, I can't even pronounce automaticity, automaticity, automaticity, there you go. There's so many things we do that are habits and routines, and become, you know, we don't have to think about it. But when we're presented with a scenario that lies outside of that automatic, I'm gonna let

8:16you say it, automatic psychological processing, then that's where our executive function skills come into play, because now we have to kind of make real time calculations of how to respond. And that's where we see kids with autism really struggle with this, even kids with ADHD. And so but if you can develop kind of a range of tools in your toolkit to self regulate when those challenging scenarios come up, then you can train your executive function skills to serve you rather than reacting in the moment, which typically does not tend to produce a desired

8:49long term result. Yeah, indeed, indeed.

Marshmallow Test

8:52Okay, so I mean, maybe we've already kind of been talking about this a bit. But can you talk a little bit more about kind of how executive functioning really translates into, I mean, a lot of what we've been saying is is thinking about kind of behavioral stuff of like, oh, being able to switch from math to lunch or whatever. Um, and of course, that's going to matter for academic performance. But correct me if I'm wrong, we have decent research showing that it's not just behavioral,

9:25that this really does translate into academic like performance and learning specifically. A hundred percent. So I'm sure you know, Dr. Adele Diamond, some of her research, she had a paper published in 2012, I believe, which I know is outside of the 10 year scope of relative research. However, that study in 2020 was one of the top in the top 0.01% of downloaded studies or cited studies across all scientific disciplines and research, as far as I understand.

10:01But I do encourage people to fact check me on that. But and so that study, it was a meta analysis of different studies on executive functioning. And one of the things that was uncovered or determined in that study was that executive function skills are a better predictor of long term math and reading outcomes than specific training around math and reading for early education. They did a study and this was this was across like different, you know, social contexts and

10:34racial, also, you know, financial demographics. So they found that that kids who developed better executive functioning or self-regulation skills were able to self-manage and have better academic outcomes in the long term. There's actually a bunch of other research from that study to around. I think they did a 30 30 year study around kids who were better at using their executive function skills like around the ages of seven to 10, I believe. And what happened 30 years later and the kids who had been determined to have better self-regulation

11:06skills like earned more, had better academic or, you know, like life outcomes in terms of like less divorce, less crime rates. So a lot of research, even over long periods of time, has shown that kids with better executive function skills do better academically and and, you know, as far as life outcomes as well. And I mean, it meshes up nicely with some of the the work that I've I mean, I used to teach this in my intro psych classes. Have you heard of have you heard of the marshmallow test?

11:36Do you know what that is? Is that the one where the little kids? Yeah, I have heard of it. Now I'm forgetting it. But it was like more about it. Yeah. There's like a billion TikTok videos now where they like simulate this. But it's where kids were given a marshmallow and they needed to sit and not eat the marshmallow. They were told, hey, if you leave that sitting there, then when I come back, I'll give you a second one and you can have two marshmallows. Right. And for kids this age, that that was very, very exciting.

12:07And then there are all these videos where you can sit and watch kids try not to eat a marshmallow for however many minutes. Right. And the there's lots and lots of follow up research on this and some of it is a little controversial, but overall, it's essentially that like self-regulation strategy of that like inhibition. Can you stop yourself from doing that, which would fall under a type of executive function? Right. And and lots and lots of research showing that that really well predicts lots of outcomes

12:38later in life, that that self-regulation. Um, I think there's a little bit of question of how much and how well these things really can be trained. So I'm going to like leave the research off to the side for a second. I kind of want to hear a little bit about your lived experience with working with kids who have some executive functioning difficulties. And admittedly, some of this is so I can take notes for my own son, but, um, how well, how

13:09well does it work to try to let's take that marshmallow test as the example, right? I imagine that if I was working with my son, I might be able to train him to leave the marshmallow. Like we would have to work on it for a while. We would have to maybe put some tools in his toolbox, and I'm sure that's a lot of what the executive functioning work that you do is all about. How well would that then translate to financial literacy later, right? Like if you hold on to your money now, then, um, you're going to have more money later and

13:44you can buy a bigger toy, right? Very similar concept, but two different tasks. From all of my understanding, that, that wouldn't, that wouldn't be very helpful, right? That he probably would not recognize that the tools that are helpful for the marshmallow task are going to be helpful for that. But talk to me a little bit about your lived experience with that. Yeah. Thanks for asking. And definitely happy to chat about strategies for parents as well as educators. So, in my experience, and this is, I'm an adult with ADHD, so I have also struggled, you know,

14:20throughout life with impulsivity and doing what feels like a win in the short term, but then isn't really what I wanted in the long term. Um, so I feel like I can really relate to a lot of the students I've, I've supported, taught, coached. And what I found is, you know, when you think about the word executive functioning, it's the idea that someone would executively decide for themselves. So, the primary strategy that I try to teach to others is we have to figure out a way for kids and learners to executively decide that the thing that is potentially the more challenging

14:54and more long-term thing is more attractive than the short-term thing. Like, one marshmallow, oh, but there's two marshmallows waiting if you can be a little patient, right? So, the challenge as a parent or educator is, how do we help a child create a vision in their mind for something that's more attractive down the road than the thing that looks really good in the moment but is not necessarily aligned with their long-term goals? Um, so this is where we have to help kids kind of start to develop these skills.

15:25Now, this is very challenging, of course, because as brain research shows, our executive skills, particularly in our frontal lobe, don't fully develop until age of 27. Yeah. So, so kids are operating with, with very, I don't want to say weak, but very kind of, you know, developing, uh, executive skills. So, this is where we, when you say train them, it's like we have to nurture them being able to identify things that are attractive to them. So, you know, taking this into, uh, a very practical context.

15:57One thing you can do as a parent or educator so that things don't feel like they're happening to the kid and then they have to rebel against it and, like, do the thing that's not good for them is kind of help them use, use strategies to help them think about more, less impulsive outcomes. So, one thing you can do as a parent is if you're helping your kid with your homework or as an educator, you can say something to them like, hey, before we, you know, work on, on anything, you know, is there anything on your mind that you'd like to discuss before we, we jump into work, right?

16:27And this, this has the effect of clearing the deck and kind of getting, getting all the emotional things that might be on their mind off the table, right? Because that stuff is just going to, they're just going to jump into the thing that is exciting or, you know, resolves the issue real quick. If you don't resolve some of the emotional challenge, and I, I've come up with this methodology I call the PEMDAS, Order of Operations for Helping Kids with Executive Function Challenges. And P stands for Prioritize a Secure Connection First, right? Because if you don't prioritize that secure connection, then it's really difficult to

16:59make headway towards goals that require a bit more of logic and less of the emotional response. So, once you, once you've prioritized that secure connection, you've established some rapport, then you can move into E, which is establishing SMART goals. And so, the way you can do this without making it feel like it's happening to the kid, so this could be good for kids with PDA or pathological demand avoidance, is start with a question like this, hey, you know, we've got a 45-minute class period, or we got 30 minutes here, right, to work on your homework before we move on to the next, you know, phase of the day.

17:32Like, if we only did one thing that would make this time feel really meaningful and valuable for you, well, what would we, what would we accomplish together? Like, what could I help you with? So, this puts it, this puts them in the driver's seat, in the executive seat, so that they can make a determination about what is going to be the best use of their time. Now, there may be scenarios where kids are, like, wanting to do something that is very, like, inconsequential or unnecessary, and so you have to, you know, evaluate for that. But typically, kids know if they have some time to process what, like, they're expected

18:07to do. They don't, I operate off the assumption that kids want to be successful, they want to please their teachers, their parents, their adults, but oftentimes they just don't have the frameworks and the time to do it, and so they're reacting and responding. So, if you put them in the driver's seat with, hey, what would we accomplish together to make this feel like the best use of your time ever, they can usually identify the thing that they're getting pressured by the external forces to complete. So, that's kind of, I would say, one of the first steps you can take as an educator or parent to help students executively identify the most important tasks and make progress towards

18:43their bigger goals. That's so great. I literally am taking notes right now. This is fantastic. I'm glad it feels helpful. Yeah. Yeah. So, as a, you know, parent of a child with autism, thank you. This has been a very, very effective podcast for me. Yeah, good. No, this is great. Okay.

General Education

19:02We've been talking, and you're a special education teacher, so you've worked primarily with students in that population. Do you think that we should be paying attention to this in all students? I mean, is this something that primarily benefits students who have difficulties with executive functioning? Or, as you said, brains aren't fully developed anyway. So, is this really something that is going to naturally develop for most kiddos? Or do we really need to be paying attention to this and putting some effort into trying

19:37to develop this executive functioning toolbox for everyone? Is there anybody who's going to get hurt by it, I guess, is another way of saying that. Great question. So, I think that it's more pronounced in kids with special needs, right? Executive dysfunction is associated with traumatic brain injury, which is one of the 13 categories of disability, according to IDEA. So, it's also very common in kids with autism, right?

20:07Executive functioning challenges present. Even though ADHD is not a category of disability, it often falls under OHI, other health impairment, or SLD, specific learning disability. So, we know that executive functioning is a huge challenge for kids with special needs. It's kind of one of the primary challenges that often are why they land in special education. So, that's a pressing issue that we need to address effectively, right? But definitely, everybody can benefit from executive functioning guidance and support.

20:38And I do think it needs to be a much more significant part of education. So much of education is focused on reading and writing skills and rote memorization. And the problem with that is that the research shows that kids with better executive function skills, better self-regulation skills, end up self, you know, basically being able to self-reflect and do better on reading and math. So, if we kind of pivot away from just really, I guess you could say, like hyper-focused on, on, you know, reading and math skills, which are essential, and help kids develop better

21:11self-regulation skills and self-awareness skills so that they can tackle challenges that they're fascinated by and interested in, in the education context, then all students benefit. And this is why, if you go, if you look at some of the resources I've created, one of the things I call them the common core standards for executive functioning. And I've basically taken the model of common core standards for reading and writing and created those for executive functioning. Like, what should kids be able to do executive function wise at different age, all the way from K through high school?

21:43And I do think that, you know, this is like my long-term vision, but we do need to have standards and expectations for kids' executive function skills. Because if we don't, then like, we're not, we don't have clear, you know, frameworks for like, should a kid be able to use a planner? Should they be able to effectively like communicate their needs to, to teachers or to others? Like, there's no standards around that, right? But aren't those so essential? So I do think that's one of the long-term goals is that as a education community and as a political community, we develop, um, standards around what executive skills kids

22:17should have at certain ages. And then once we have those standards, we can develop frameworks and goals to embed them into the education. But kind of, it's kind of like the chicken or the egg, like our teacher's just going to do it if they're not expected to do it. Um, maybe some of them, but we might need to kind of rethink it a bit. Yeah. And in my mind, this really becomes an issue of learning equity. I use that term a lot, but what we see to be true for a lot of the, the learning strategies we talk about on our website is that they tend to be even more effective.

22:51They're good for everybody, but they tend to be even more effective for populations that might have executive functioning deficits, right? So using them, you're not necessarily hurting anyone, but what you're doing is trying to level the playing field a little bit. And I, I feel like that's a huge issue when we're talking about this executive functioning skills, um, is that right now you've got a group of folks who are, are, yeah, they're

23:21picking up reading and writing because they have that natural self-regulation and the rich you're just going to get richer in terms of, of those skills and knowledge. Um, so unless that gets addressed and you try to bring everybody up to equal, then that's going to continue to be an achievement gap between these folks. And that gap is going to get wider and wider unless it is specifically addressed. And I'm, I'm also concerned about, um, I mean, kiddos, not, not terribly different than

23:53my own who are, um, I, not everybody likes this terminology, I know, but they're like high, high functioning, right? So they're, they're still in the general population classroom for the most part, um, but need a little bit of extra support. And I think there are a lot of folks who are right on the other side of a diagnosis, right? That they have, they have, they don't qualify for the diagnosis, but they do have some deficits. And again, that achievement gap is going to get bigger and bigger for them because they're not getting any training, but they're also probably not learning at the same rate as their

24:28peers. And there's a way that they could. Um, and so to me, this is like a, a huge issue that, that we need to be paying attention to. So I've got your back. I appreciate that. Yeah, and just to add to it, all learner, like research shows that all learners benefit when curriculum and instruction is divine, is designed with the universal design principles in mind, right? Like kids who learn around their special needs peers, like they learn, they learn better.

25:00Like it's just better for everybody. You learn, you learn other, you know, soft skills in terms of like being able to connect with people with different backgrounds and being able to break things down into, you know, chunked out, chunked out, uh, pieces that are, that everyone can learn from. Um, so it's good for everybody to have systems in place that allow students to reach their goals and, you know, think about the, the small steps on the way to, to the larger goals. So, um, it's, it's definitely like you, like you were saying, it's, we, we want to address

25:32that and everyone can win. It doesn't mean we're slowing things down for the, the high achieving students. Uh, it just means we're, we're addressing a key component of learning, which is like projects and goals need to be broken into chunks to make it accessible. Um, and the kids who, who can, you know, fly through that, then there can be other outcomes and expectations. And that's where standards could come into place. Like, Hey, if you've achieved this, you know, you can move on to this. And, and, and I always, I talk about like, we can kind of think of a framework of like all learners will be able to do this.

26:03Like some learners will be able, or you can flip it actually, the bottom would be like all learners would be able to do this. If it's a pyramid, some learners will be able to do this. And like a fraction of them will be able to do this. And so we, we want to think about like, yeah, how do we differentiate and kind of have like expectations, but also, um, make accessibility for, for all potential learners, which is good for the education system because it takes the pressure off teachers, um, to feel like they have to like figure, you know, splitting things up and having staff signed for this and this it's important in some degrees, but really this stuff is like essential for

26:37a very diverse education community that needs kind of a better framework for learners. I mean, it's, it's good for our educators. It's, it's also good for like society later on, right? You know, if we can, if we can bring everybody up to have these better skills that that's going to create a better workforce later on, it's going to create, I mean, so the, the implications I think are, are far reaching. So like I, like I said, you've, you've got my back. I do. I was just, uh, I was just going through some of the, um, so to the listeners, um, Sean and

Research Studies

27:11I went back and forth a little bit and we've got a few papers that we had pulled out, um, some of the research, um, that we were looking at. And I, I just want to pull one out just, um, to kind of ground some of what we're talking about. No one study is going to be perfect or should we make giant conclusions based on it. But, um, you mentioned the diamond, um, meta analysis, um, earlier, and we'll make sure we link that in the show notes, but there's another, um, article that I didn't tell you I was going to talk about.

27:42So, um, surprise, um, but it's, um, Blair and Ratsa it's 2007. So like you said, it was a little bit older, but that's okay. But in this study, what they did was they took a lot of kiddos who were getting ready for kindergarten and they were specifically from low income homes. And then they did a bunch of different measurements of executive function for these kiddos and then looked to see how well they performed in kindergarten, basically.

28:13And what's cool about this is in all of these different measures, I think it's that, that self-regulation piece that we were talking about earlier becomes critical. I mean, um, more so than everything else that they looked at, that self-regulation piece was accounted for unique variance in the academic outcomes for those kindergartners. So, um, it's a correlational study as all of these things are going to be.

28:43It's not as if they were training or anything like that in this study, but I think it just comes back to, to really looking at, at what we've been talking about, that these skills are so critical and they're critical early and persist. Any thoughts that you have about that? Yeah. Well, I, I love that study. That is actually one that is included in Dr. Adele Diamond's meta-analysis. And I think it's, I think it's, um, that study is really important. I think for multiple reasons, you know, at a young age, but also that it showed that even,

29:16you know, it's, it's, it can, the situations can be improved even in low income environments, right? Where it's like, maybe they don't have access to all the resources, but if we, if we zone in on the thing that really matters, it can solve that educational inequity challenge to some degree, or move us in the right direction that, Hey, teaching executive skills like self-regulation can, it can overcome some of the barriers that exist because of educational inequity. So I love that study. And I think one thing to keep in mind when you think about, okay, well then how do we

29:48embed this into our school environment for anyone who's listening is Dr. Russell Barkley, a famed researcher on ADHD talked about, um, executive skills are necessary at the point of performance. And the point of performance is the place and time in the, in the individual's life where they're failing to use executive skills or failing to self-regulate. So, so it's not so much about teaching executive skills in a bubble, like, okay, here's how you, you do this cognitive training game, which by the way, the research shows cognitive training

30:20doesn't necessarily help with executive skills because it's, it's really, um, uh, isolated, right? We need, we need to teach these skills in a way that can be generalized across different environments. Okay. I learned how to study for the, the test, which I applied to getting my driver's license, which I applied to applying for, you know, to become a physician or whatever it might be. We need skills that generalize. And that's where helping kids develop these skills so they can apply them at the point of performance or the situation where they are struggling is going to be the key to, to making them useful.

30:51And I know a lot of the work of learning scientists is how do we motivate students? Students feel motivation when they can solve a problem that was infuriating or a pain point, right? Like something they're struggling with, if they learn the missing skill and then they can apply that skill, that self-regulation, uh, self-reflective problem solving skill and solve the problem. They're like, Oh my God, like I got through this thing that was frustrating me. That's how they develop these executive skills and then generalize them across, uh, different scenarios. Yeah, that's beautiful. So yeah, it ties in really nicely.

31:21It's literally the blog that I had just come out, um, recently about the science of motivation. It's that self-efficacy piece, right? Prior to that, these students are sitting there, not, they, they don't know that they can do this thing. They've never been able to successfully do it, or they're usually frustrated by it. Even if they can do it, it's hard. So yes, that, that moment of success is huge for motivating them to persist, to do it again.

31:51And in so many ways, right? It, it leads to greater self-efficacy through their own previous experiences, but it's also that opportunity for an educator to say, you've done it before. I know you can do it again, right? Because they can point to that and say, you did this, you did this just yesterday. So I know that you can do this. Let's talk through it. Right? So I, I love that. I love it so much. We are out of time. Is there anything else that we have not talked about today that you were hoping we would? So many things, but yeah, let me, I mean, but in a good way, I'm like, oh, I'm really

32:23enjoying this conversation. I know, me too. I love your expertise and knowledge on the topic. So it makes it so fun to talk about it.

Conclusion and Recommendations

32:31I guess one thing I always share with people before we wrap up is a good habit for students, for adults, for anybody around this topic is there's so many podcasts and so many, you know, bits of information and articles, it can become overwhelming. Like, okay, I've got to do this strategy and this strategy and this strategy, and it can, it can become overwhelming. But one habit I recommend to people is start by helping yourself and your students, your kids think about your one thing. So like when you, before you go to bed at night or, you know, when you have your students,

33:05you know, in your resource class as a special ed teacher, like put it up as a prompt. Like, Hey, if you only did one thing this period or today at school, or, you know, today as a professional, what would be the thing that would be the most meaningful or, you know, help your, you advance you towards your long-term goals. And there's real power to this line of thinking, this one, one thing thinking, because there was a study done where they showed the power of the domino effect, right? So like a tiny, little tiny domino can knock over a slightly larger domino.

33:39And the effect of this, if you get to like the 17th or 19th domino, if they just increase in proportion to, you know, doubling in size, you could knock over the Eiffel Tower, right? And so this just kind of framework of thinking like, what is the one thing that will kind of like have a domino effect on moving me forward? And I think that people can generally identify this if they calm their minds, if they, if they chill out for a second, they start to reflect or journal, they can usually figure out like, Oh, I don't really need to do all this other stuff, but I definitely need to

34:11do this one thing today. So that's just a little habit I would encourage people to think about when they're trying to decide like, what's my executive goal for the day or the year? Well, what's your one thing today? It also relates, I love that it relates back to that self-efficacy piece too, right? Because if you had a one thing, one thing is a reasonable goal, right? Like I can, I can accomplish that. And if I can accomplish that today, then I can accomplish it again tomorrow.

34:41And then you keep moving in that direction. I do the same thing with my med students. So different population entirely, um, but related issues where they, um, they have a huge board exam, their first board exam, and, um, they need to start prepping for it early. Like ideally they're thinking about that months and months in advance, but they're also currently in courses as well. So they're like day-to-day life is extremely busy.

35:11So the concept of having to do this like extra piece is it's a lot. And so I have that same conversation. What is the one thing that you can do every day, no matter how terrible that day is, you could still accomplish that one thing that would move you towards step one, which is the board exam. And sometimes that's like answer one question or like open your notes to one page and read it. And then on a day when you have more capacity, maybe you do more, but what is the one thing

35:43you for sure can accomplish? Um, so I, I love that we're on the same wavelength there and, and, um, I'm doing things that are good. Yeah. I love it. Yeah. That's wonderful. Okay. Well, um, I want to let folks know that if you're still with us, we will also include in this show notes, um, Sean's website, which is, um, EF specialists. And, um, on that website, there's, uh, lots of just free resources available for folks, lots of articles and kind of summarizing a lot of what we've talked about here today.

36:15So if you're, you know, just wanting to get some more information or you want to reach out to Sean, that's probably the best, um, place to go. So I'll make sure that that's in the show notes as well as links to the articles that we talked about today. And yeah, I, I think, I think we're good to wrap up. So, um, thank you again, Sean, for joining me today. I certainly learned a lot and, um, I'm going to be looking up some stuff on your site and, um, walking away, trying some new strategies. So thank you so much. Yeah, it was all my pleasure, Dr. Niebel.

36:45Thank you for having me as a guest. I appreciate it. This episode is funded by listeners like you to support our work and gain access to exclusive content. Visit our Patreon page at www.patreon.com slash learning scientists.