Episode 88: Quick Podcast Updates and a Discussion About Multitasking

Introduction

0:00Welcome to the Learning Scientist podcast, a podcast for teachers, students, and parents about evidence-based practice and learning. Hi, and welcome to the Learning Scientist podcast. Today, we're going to talk a little bit about some of the exciting changes we've got coming for you coming up in the podcast. We're going to go over some of our new podcast type. Yeah, and if you are listening to this in the car, and we suspect that many of you are

0:30are, stay tuned because we are also going to talk about listening to podcasts in the car and multitasking, all of that good stuff. So we're going to talk a little bit about the science, but first, we want to talk about some of the changes to the podcast that we're pretty excited about. Today's also an exciting one because all four of us are recording this podcast together, and it is a somewhat rarity these days for the four of us all to be in space together. So we're excited to be here talking to you guys today. It is still electronic space, but even that's exciting these days, right?

1:03Yeah, definitely. I mean, across different countries and time zones, it's not easy to get together, but it's nice. We are looking forward to this. We get to look at everybody's home offices and some of our work offices. I'm at work, guys. I'm at work as well. Why did I think you were in your home? You're the only one at home. Just kidding. I'm at home. Everyone else... Oralina's work office is so cozy. It looks like home. It does look nice. That does look like home. She has all these really nice lights and... Some fun pictures.

1:34Yeah. So we decided...

Podcast Changes

1:36The podcast really has changed a lot over the last few years. We started it in 20... Gosh, was it 2017? Probably. I think. Maybe. Yeah. Somewhere in there. And so over the years, it's changed a lot. And we realized that we've been really intentional about the changes that we've made to the blog that we write and changes to the website, but we've been a little bit less intentional about the shifts with the podcast. The podcast has just sort of morphed and shifted based on... I'm not even sure.

2:06We get a lot of requests for folks wanting to be interviewed and things. And so it's like, oh, yeah, that sounds cool. Let's do that. But somewhere along the way, someone paid attention and we got on some list. And I don't know what list it is, but there's got to be a list somewhere. And so we get lots and lots of requests. And it occurred to us that we wanted to start being extra careful and extra thoughtful about the way we proceed with the podcast because we...

2:37And we wanted to match the blog in some ways and be kind of in line with our website. And so we got together and we talked about the things that we love about the podcast. And we talked about the things that we wanted to change or modify about the podcast. And we decided that we're going to have three different types of episodes in no particular order or on no particular schedule, because that would be difficult. So what we're going to do is we're going to have three different types. One is where we interview or talk with educators or students.

3:12It's talking about their experiences learning in the classroom or wherever it is that they do their teaching and learning. It could be in a hospital. It could be in a museum. It could be in all loads of places, right? And so in those types of episodes, we'll really be tapping into experiences of educators and learners and talking about their experiences utilizing the science of learning. So, you know, there is a place for those anecdotes, right? Understanding how different types of people experience different types of learning strategies

3:47or learning in the classroom or other spaces. And so in those episodes, we're certainly going to reference the science and talk about the science behind some of the things that might be happening or some of the things that the educators or students might be feeling. But we're going to give space for those experiences and maybe even present some examples that people have never thought of about how to implement some of the science. So if you're an educator listening to this right now and you're like, oh, hey, I use their

4:21stuff in my classrooms or I use the science of learning in my classroom, let us know. We'd love to interview you to talk about that on the podcast. An interview sounds scary. It's not like we're going to rapid fire questions. It's a conversation. And my husband does the editing. And so Lord knows we can cut things out when there's a blunder or a phone going off or whatever. Yeah, I will say as well, in the UK, in higher education, there's a big push towards integrating

4:53the student voice when it comes to making decisions about learning and teaching, about assessments and feedback and so on. And as, you know, educators in higher education, we need to listen to the student voice more and more. And I think interviews with students are something that we have featured in the past. And they're always an exciting way to get a different perspective for actually the target group we are catering to.

5:25And so, yeah, having that as one podcast series or approach, I think, is quite exciting. Yeah. And the other two, one of them is kind of what we've been doing. So, bite-sized research episodes where we talk about a research paper that we've read. We've done this before where one of us talks through a paper or we talk to one another about the paper. We may even bring on guests to talk about their research or areas in which they are experts.

5:57But the key is that those are really going to be tapping into the peer-reviewed literature to bring the science of learning to you wherever you listen. So, your car, your shower, your, I don't know, your run, your run, I don't know, wherever people listen to podcast episodes while folding laundry, doing the dishes, we're listing off some of the things that we do. So, that's another type. And then the third type is, in some ways, kind of the most novel and also the least kind

6:28of creative. We're going to start occasionally reading some of our popular blog post pieces. The reason for that is we learned that the people who listen to the podcast are not the same people that read the blog. And the people who read the blog are not the same people who listen to the podcast. And I don't know why this was surprising to me when I first heard it because those different modalities kind of can drive the audience. But for some reason, I don't know. I guess I just thought that it was the same group of people. But it's not. And so, the idea is that we can bring some of the things that we've written to this audio

7:02medium so that you can listen in your car and, yeah, and kind of use some of that great content that's already been written and well-researched. And so, when we were talking about this, we were discussing the fact that, you know, like, I have young kids. So, getting time to, like, sit down and read at home is basically impossible at this point in my life. So, most of my reading is listening to podcasts or audiobooks or whatever. And so, we were chatting about all the different places that we do that.

7:34And I was like, for the most part, I do that in my car. And then, Carolina, you made a comment about the fact that you do this during runs, right? What did you say? Yeah, exactly. So, I have long runs on Sundays, which are one-hour runs. And if I don't listen to something coherently, I get very bored at doing those runs. So, I started listening to audiobooks. And this works great.

8:01And the funny thing is that I really connect those specific audiobooks to my runs. So, I cannot do one without the other. So, yeah. So, you end up, like, half the time missing some parts of it, right? Oh, yeah. Sorry. Yeah. Exactly. Sorry. See, I missed that point. Yeah. So, it happens that, you know, because I have to, even when I'm going out for a run, I need to pay attention to the traffic and the surroundings. And so, sometimes I will miss a couple of things in my audiobook.

8:33And then, I try to fill in the blanks. And sometimes, it's more or less successful. So, but, yeah. I can feel that, depending on what was going on around me, and I had to pay attention to different things, I will have probably a couple of gaps in understanding what the book is about. And then, I have to go back and listen to it again. So, this is, like, the running equivalent of turning the volume down so you can see better when you're driving, right? You have to turn the, you have to, like, shut off the, you know, turn the volume down so you can, like, pay attention to a car and cross the street.

Multitasking

9:04And the reason we have to do that has everything to do with multitasking. Yeah. And so, Cindy and I got super excited because we are writing a chapter together about a couple of, a couple of myths that have some truth to them. And we're evaluating the evidence in this. It's a very brief chapter. And we're, we're writing about multitasking. And we're writing about brain training. But thinking about multitasking, we got into a whole debate yesterday about whether or

9:35not we could use driving as an example in a couple of places. And we do use it. But because we were having a debate about, I don't want to say arguments, we weren't arguing. We were just like, well, what about this? What about this? And talking about kind of all of the different ways that driving could be, could be managed during multitasking. And I was like, at this point, this entire, this example is just going to be the entire chapter. We're going to use all the words on trying to explain driving, and then we're not going to have any words left. But it is super relevant here, right?

10:08Because the, we can't really multitask, okay? This is a myth. There's a grain of truth to it. And, and we, there are some situations when we can multitask, but typically the types of things that we try to multitask, it just, it just doesn't work super well. We have two different kind of, two different ways of, of doing tasks or two different processes. We can do things in automatic mode, or we can do things in controlled mode, so to speak.

10:38Automatic is just sort of set it and forget it. You can do it without putting conscious attention to it. Biological processes would be considered automatized tasks, right? So you're probably breathing, you're probably digesting food, your, your heart is pumping, right? Like all of these things you don't actually have to think about. And if you're walking, you can walk, you can put one foot in front of the other without, without really thinking about it. These are automatic. Controlled processes are when you're actually trying to say, listen to a story and create

11:12a mental model of that story in your mind and, and think it through. Things that require conscious attention. And when you're driving in order to do so effectively and efficiently, I eat safely and getting there and getting to where you're trying to go, you should be at least putting some controlled attention into the driving task because something could jump out in front of you or the car in front of you could stop quicker than you might be expecting all of those types of things. And you have to have your conscious attention on the road in order to catch those things

11:43quickly. What I think is so funny, Megan, is that as we had this conversation yesterday, we literally used running as an example of an automatic process that you could do like you, oh yeah, you could totally like listen to an audio book while you're running, except, oh gosh, it's kind of like driving where you need to pay attention to your surroundings, right? So even that isn't a fully automatic process. So when we try to multitask two things that require conscious attention, like listening

12:15to this podcast episode and driving, what you're really doing, you're not doing the two things at once. What you're really doing is switching back and forth. And we can get good at switching back and forth and we can even switch back and forth so rapidly that it seems like we're doing two things at once. But the problem is that we are switching. So when you are switching back and forth, like texting while driving or listening to a podcast episode while driving, I'm not saying those two things are equivalent, but switching back and forth, there are times when your conscious attention is on the other task and not driving.

12:50And that is where the trouble lies. Because if that's when, you know, heaven forbid, the kid falls off the sidewalk or there's a car that stops or, you know, whatever happens, if that's the time when it happens, you're going to be much slower to catch it because you have to switch back to that task, get into the conscious, conscious mode of the road and then respond. It's going to slow you down. And that slowing can lead to accidents. But one of the studies that we looked at and put in the book chapter actually looked at

13:24the, like, type of task that you're doing in the car and that some of these things are more problematic than others, right? So, like, trying to listen to a podcast, it doesn't, I mean, that is probably less demanding on your cognitive resources than, say, even hands-free responding to a text message, right? Where you're, like, telling the car, like, to type the answer for you or whatever, right? Definitely don't use your hands while driving, please. But the even hands-free trying to send a text message requires more cognitive resources

14:00and makes this even worse. What's really interesting to me about the driving example is that when I talk about this in class or with when I'm giving talks, if I say, you know, when you have to turn the volume down in order to see better, that always gets a chuckle because people think that that's weird and funny and, oh, I'm getting old. But I like to point out that that's actually a really good example of metacognitive control, that that is you actively recognizing that there is a lot going on in my environment,

14:30something has changed, and I need to develop more attention, more resources towards this higher priority item, which is usually, if you're driving, driving is the high priority item, right? And there are also really interesting examples of what happens if nothing really out of the blue happens, right? You can be driving, and it is all fairly automatic, especially if you're driving the same route every day, right? And many people who are doing this probably have the experience of like, and then I was home, and if you asked me about the drive, I cannot remember a single thing that happens,

15:07right? Because it was really routine, and so there was no reason for you to remember that. And so that's usually a sign that some sort of automatic process is happening, that you slipped into that automaticity because you weren't actively having to monitor your environment or make choices because it was all just very routine. And so I think driving is such a fascinating example of attention and monitoring and metacognition because it's something that many people have experience with.

15:38And if you're someone who drives every day, you probably also remember what it was like to learn and just how overwhelming it was. So I think it's also a really interesting example of how skilled we can get at different tasks, in this thing that was super overwhelming at first, become something that's relatively automatic, so automatic, in fact, that you're maybe like, my daily commute, if I'm not listening to a podcast, I'm afraid I'm going to fall asleep, right? And it's this weird balance that you have to play, right?

16:08And so I think what's really important to know is like, yeah, one, obviously, if you're doing something else in addition to driving, that can consume resources. But two, understanding that, know that like, hey, I may be driving someplace new or it's snowing or, you know, there's a road closure, whatever it is. I may be going to pause that for a minute while I figure this out and then come back to it, right? So if you know that there are these kind of limitations in place, you can make better decisions about it. And like Citi said earlier, right?

16:38Also know that like hands-free is usually better than hands, right? Anything you can do to just kind of reduce the number of steps that you're having introduced as you're switching your attention back and forth is good. So it's, I think, a matter of knowing more so you can make better choices and not feel silly whenever you have to down so you can see better. Yeah. I mean, another example in the car as well, because it just made me think about routines, right? We usually drive forward with a car. And some cars have technology that assists us when we have put the rear gear in, the

17:15music goes down, right? Automatically. And it's because we don't do this very often. And whenever we do, we have to pay extra attention to our surroundings when we back up with the car. So technology kind of is already on it to try to assist with these kind of non-routine moves in the car, which is quite interesting. And I think another example I would like to use is riding the bicycle, right? Because riding the bicycle is something that we learn at some point in our lives.

17:47And then we actually never unlearn it again. Like we can, you know, after 10 or 20 years, you can go back on the bike. However, you are more insecure on the bike when you have had years of non-biking. Um, and I had this, um, weird experience where, um, I, when I moved to Glasgow, I said, I'm going to buy a bike and I'm going to bike everywhere. Also great idea, but also the weather is absolutely terrible here for biking.

18:19Nevertheless, I bought the bike. But the first thing that I had underestimated is, yes, I know how to ride a bike, but do I know how to ride a bike in a city? And that is something that's very different. And all of a sudden I couldn't listen to any music whatsoever. Like my entire attention was on riding the bicycle down the street. Um, and it's because it wasn't routine and nothing was, you know, automatic and in any kind of way. So I had to, um, invest all my attention to get this, um, to get this right.

18:51One of my favorite videos to show in class, it's actually when we deal with, um, I think I show it when we talk about perception, um, and then feeding into attention, but it's a video called whodunit and it, I believe it is an English video. I think it, well, it's in English, but I, I believe it's from the UK, but I'm not positive. It is, it's a PSA from the UK. Yeah. But it's this thing where I always tell the students, okay, watch this video and, um,

19:21there's going to be, I'm going to ask you a question at the end. And so they're all paying attention to the plot and what the person is saying, but then there's some things changing. And I, I know I can say that without ruining it because, um, absolutely you won't notice them all. Even if you're trying, you won't notice them all. And students are always astounded when I, when I tell them kind of what has happened in this video and, and I, I go back and I let them watch it again, but they, they don't really get it until the camera takes a wide angle and you can see the movement associated with everything.

19:52Um, anyway, I'm being very cryptic cause I don't want to ruin this, this video in case you, you want to watch it. I'll put the link to it in the show notes, but the, the reason I thought of it in this context is at the very end, it's, it's basically a public service announcement. It says you can easily miss something like you can easily miss what you're not looking for. Watch out for bicycles, cyclists on the road, because at least in the U S we are very attuned to cars on the road and to some extent, pedestrians, but, but not so much bicycles.

20:25And so it's, it's interesting. So in short, if you're listening to this in the car or on a bicycle, that's totally fine. Or on a run. Or on your run. Yes. Yes. Uh, that's totally fine. Um, but be aware of what's around you and you are always welcome to pause us or stop us and come back and listen later. But yeah, importantly, even, even while in the car or, um, running or on a bicycle, things

20:56that feel automatic sometimes still demand our attention. And it's really important to keep track of that because we can't effectively multitask. And maybe we'll put in the show notes, um, uh, links to a couple of our multitasking

New Podcast Approach

21:10blogs as well for the folks who are in fact blog readers and podcast listeners. And I think, um, also to connect back to the beginning of this podcast, um, we hope that you enjoy our new approach to the podcast with, um, the new different kind of pieces and bits that we have, you know, tailored to our listeners. If you are interested in being a guest on our podcast, if you want to talk about some of the research that you know, or research that you've published, or you're an educator or

21:40a student, and you want to talk about your experiences, we do have, um, a link that we use to, to, to pull interview requests in and, and gather some information. And we'll put that link in the show notes of this episode as well. See you next time. Happy birthday, Althea. This episode is funded by listeners like you. To support our work and gain access to exclusive content, visit our Patreon page, at www.patreon.com slash learningscientists.