Episode 87: Executive Functioning Skills with Mitch Weathers

Introduction

0:00Welcome to the Learning Scientist Podcast, a podcast for teachers, students, and parents about evidence-based practice and learning. Welcome back to another episode of the Learning Scientist Podcast. I am so excited to be joined by my new very good friend, Mitch. So we're joined today by Mitch Weathers. He's a high school science teacher. Are you still a high school science teacher, Mitch? No.

0:30No, you're a veteran high school science teacher. He's also the founder and CEO of Organized Binder, which we'll talk about here in a little bit. But now he works with K-12 schools and colleges in the U.S. and internationally to equip students with executive functioning skills. He's also just an all-around fantastic human. So we got to meet and connect at a recent research ed. So my podcast that we had a couple episodes ago, Mitch would have been in the audience

1:02for that podcast recording. Front row in the audience, actually. Yeah, it was a good time.

Executive Functioning

1:08So we're just going to kind of have a chat today about all things executive functioning, because that is Mitch's area of expertise. Before we do anything else, Mitch, just can you tell our audience a little bit about you? I love hearing people's stories of how they got to where they are today. So can you just give us a little bit of your background and career trajectory? Sure. Thanks for having me, first of all. And I was in the audience and was actually part of the recording of that podcast, if you remember.

1:39But my career, very, it's the right way to say this, meandering at best. It's interesting to be at this place in my career and actually looking back. I was a mediocre student and I was never super comfortable in the classroom. I am a genetically poor speller. I have extreme anxiety reading out loud. Hand me the mic. I'll talk all day long. I love that. But reading. So you can imagine which subject areas in school were not very comfortable for me.

2:11I feel like in every subject, there was like the, let's read out loud around the room, right? At least in the 80s and 90s, that was the thing. And I actually tell the story in my book about getting to English class in high school in particular and hoping I wouldn't get called on, just not present and learning at all. I've seen so many of those memes where like my social anxiety started during high school

Mitch's Background

2:36when I would count the number of people in front of me and which paragraph I was going to have to read. And you didn't listen to anything. You just read that over and over and over again. And still screwed it up when it was your time. So I say all that to say when I was successful, I got through school and I undergrad. And it took me seven years to get through undergrad. I didn't know what I wanted to do. And I'm based, grew up in Northern California. And so I was far more interested in rock climbing and backpacking and mountain biking and snowboarding

3:09and all the stuff that I found myself doing then. I really knew what I wanted. And I thought, well, I have to pick a major. And this is the truth. I picked geology because I love backpacking and being in the mountains. I'm like, well, rocks, like that was like when you talk about career trajectory and it worked out. I thought, well, I think if I do anything, I'll be a life or I'll teach earth science and that would be fun. And then after high school or after undergrad, I accepted a position.

3:40I had volunteered with a nonprofit that worked with at-risk middle school and high school age kind of adolescence kids. And I accepted a role as their executive director and did that for a couple of years. And quickly in that time realized I really like working with kids and I don't want to be the director of a nonprofit. It was just this massive job. And I was fairly young, which is interesting because I've been in education now ever since over 25 years. And I've never once considered administration like school leadership because of that.

4:13I'm like, no, I don't. I just want to work with students. I want to be in my classroom. I want to be on the ground. Boots on the ground, please. Thank you. So back to school, did my master's degree in credential and then found my way into the classroom.

Teaching Experience

4:26And I mentioned all of that, Cindy, just because I think now in hindsight, looking back, what allowed me where I started working on all of this or this work around executive functioning skills is that I got into the classroom. And I had worked with kids and some tough kids for quite a few years, both as a volunteer and then as a staff member. And so the idea of classroom management, just I could do it. I could interface with kids. And I've seen now in supporting new teachers for many years for a lot of people, even if you're one of those very rare people, they can go through undergrad, get a credential and find themselves back in a classroom five years after K-12 and be successful doing it.

5:09But even those folks and certainly people who are coming at it at a different time in their life, just learning to interface with young people can be, it's like this alien species. Like, how do I do this? And I didn't struggle with that. Not that I had perfect management, but I think what it allowed me to do is start to ask those questions around like, well, why aren't you succeeding? Well, there's something missing here and nobody up until this time in my life has talked about it in my master's program and my credential and it just kind of festered with me.

5:42And I kept trying to answer that question, like, why aren't you, you're perfectly capable, right? So it's that relationship piece in the classroom, you get to know, oh, you can do this. Something's missing. And that's kind of on me, I feel like.

Studentness Concept

5:57And I tried to answer that question or figure that out, which has led me on this journey or path around, you know, laying the foundation for success with executive functioning skills. Yeah. So I have a feeling that some of our listeners, you know, don't know too much about executive functioning skills. So I really want to make sure that we, you know, I'm a big, big proponent of prior knowledge. Want to make sure we lay the foundation here so folks can follow along with what we're talking about. What on earth are executive functioning skills? Well, there's lots of fancy academic type definitions and it really is kind of an umbrella term.

6:34It can encapsulate many different domains, if you will. My work and what I'm absolutely almost kind of like obsessed with is what does it mean in that teaching learning context? And I'll just say, not that it has to be a traditional classroom, but for the sake of our conversation, let's just say like, what, which of these skills, whether you're looking at them kind of bundled as one whole executive functioning, is this like agency? But when you look closely, you're like, oh, it's this, this, this, this, this. What's the research?

7:05What's the evidence? What, what, what is going to move the needle or lay that foundation for students? And so void or trying to avoid long-winded definitions as a school that we've worked with, with Organized Binder for many years. And I tell the story about them in the book as well. They contacted us and said, hey, we collectively, oh, this was like collective teacher advocacy. Like they had gotten together and said, same thing, something's missing. And what we are on a mission is we want to develop studentness in our students, this idea of studentness.

7:40What's that mean? How do we do that? To be honest, that's the term that I've adopted from them or stolen from them to really describe executive functioning in a way that just makes sense for that teaching learning context. Like it's, with my students, like I said early on, I'm like, oh, you don't know how to do school. And the good thing for you, here was the, I really think this is key for my, for my experiences. I didn't either. I was not, I know what it's like to sit in a classroom and feel like everything's happening all around me.

8:12And I, I, I'm a passive, this is Paulo Ferrarian theory here. Like I'm a, I'm, I'm sitting here as a passive object and what I want to be is an active subject. I want to be involved and I, I don't know how to do that. And yet I'm looking around and there seems to be a lot of people in the room that, that do. How come they do? And I don't, I have this like uncertainty, but if I can start to develop this sense of studentness, then I can jump in with agency and depth starity.

8:46And so to put some definition to it, these skills are, you know, and habits, things like goal setting, time and task management, organization, self-regulation, accountability. Like those are the quote unquote executive functioning skills that when you put them together as one, it develops the sense of studentness. So that's kind of how I approach it when I'm defining it. Yeah, no, I really liked that. So I, for the longest time I told people that the reason, cause I, I did well in school.

9:18I mean, that's not a secret to anybody who, who knows young Cindy. I used to just like collect awards like that. I just, I just wanted all of them. It's kind of embarrassing to think about past Cindy. She was, she was quite the nerd. Um, but I mean, I guess I still am, but I always said that the reason I was successful was not necessarily that I was any smarter than anybody else, but that I knew how to play the game. That's what I always said was I knew how to play the game. And I think that's kind of what you're talking about of this like studentness.

9:50I knew like what the hidden rules were for being a good student, right. Or appearing as a good student as it were. Right. Cause there were, there were times in college where I wasn't necessarily a good student,

Playing the Game

10:02but they didn't know that. And that would be right. I might've, I mean, I wasn't rock climbing. I was doing different extracurricular activities, Mitch, but yeah, but like, they didn't know that as far as anybody knew, I was playing the game. And so I think there's really something to be said for this, but I, I also, um, I wonder this is totally off script at this point. I'm just like talking. So I, I wonder, so right in my very cog psych world, and I think about what executive functioning

10:32often means, which I think of it as like basically everything my prefrontal cortex is doing right where I'm trying to do impulse control and attentional control and all, all those kinds of things. And then I think about studentness and I, I feel like some of these things are those things, but there are some things about studentness, if you will, that are, I don't know, sort of like hidden curriculum things that aren't so much those things. Are you talking about just the executive functioning part, or are you also talking about these things

11:06that are just like, like good things that students do? I don't know how to say that, but does that make sense? Like the difference between like, are we talking about like a, a cog cognition thing here, or are we talking about like a, a behavioral thing or are those the same in some way? I think we inform each other, right? I think, I don't think you can separate those two and we'll, we'll stick to the messiness of the classroom. But when you talk about the prefrontal cortex and these, again, you can get into these definitions,

11:38which for a teacher, that's just like, I have to just get through the day and I want to help my students be successful. There are some like more concrete behavioral things that lead to, and Paul Tufts, this is his, his, his line, if we can create learning environments that lead to better executive functioning, that's a win. Students are more likely to be successful. And so when we look at the classroom, I'd say it's both. And oftentimes people, you know, I'll list, and in my work, there are six habits or skills

12:11that... We like six. Why do we like the number six so much? We've got six strategies for effective learning that we talk about. Why is that? I don't know, maybe we're onto something. Well, it's the next book we should write. And the sixth, to be honest, it came from, let me back up a little bit. Sorry, I'm, I'm interrupting all the time and... No, no, no, this is fun. The, a friend of mine, when I was writing my book said, you know what I love about the work you've done is it's research backed, it's not research based. And I was like, what do you mean?

12:42And he said, well, you didn't, you're not a researcher. You didn't go conduct a study and base a program on the evidence from that. What you've done is you created a program that had a significant impact and you've spent most of your career learning why that happened, meaning it's research backed, which I just never heard that distinction. And so the reason there's six is I have been completely obsessed with trying to figure out this program, the impact it's had, why, what is the research actually suggesting?

13:18And from that, I've learned, oh, it's these, these six things embedded in this particular way. But some of the criticism I'll receive is people want some, some things on that list that aren't on that list or want to, you know, they want to add to the list. And so I get a lot of like, well, what about like task initiation and task completion? And we can look at self-regulation. And what I've seen, honestly seen in the classroom is that when students, for example, get practice every day and see modeled time and task management, planning and time management, AKA, how do I keep

13:53a calendar and know what's coming, where we've gone? What do I need to do today? Like all the stuff we do, right, get through the day, when I start to hone that skill and make it my own, like I can do that, then I'm far more likely to initiate and complete tasks. Yeah. Right. So there's, there's a, there's a behavior there that starts to inform these, these executive functioning skills. Same thing organizationally, just laying that foundation. Can I access, what I say is learn to get and stay organized.

14:23Now it's mine. Well, that's going to start, I can tell you organization influences self-regulation. Oh my gosh. Yes. Right. We all know this stuff. When we look back historically, all of these executive functioning skills have kind of been left up to chance. Like, yeah, I have evidence of it. Every time I get to speak to teachers, whether it's 10 people in a room or 400 people at a keynote, I will ask the question, just quick show of hands at anybody, when you were a young person, did a caring adult sit down and show you and model for you and hold you

14:57accountable for keeping a calendar? Now, like usually I'll have maybe one half raised hand in the room or a couple like, and you can do that with these other skills. We've kind of, it's interesting, just hoped kind of through osmosis. We pick these skills up as we go through. Look at goal setting. I mean, the evidence is there. It has a significant impact. I walk into a lot of classrooms. I visit a lot of schools. I don't see a whole lot of goal setting. We talk about it, but is it actually happening in a, I'm going to use your word, like a behavior?

15:32How do you do this? Right. I would say it's, I hope that answers your question. No, I think it does. It's like, I think, you know, you talk about executive functioning skills and arguably a skill is a, really, it's a behavior that's repeated enough to become habitual. And now it's a skill, right? That, yeah. So that makes good sense. All that repetition. Yeah. Okay. So you've mentioned Organized Binder. I mentioned it too, but probably a lot of people have no idea what we're talking about. Can you give us like the elevator pitch of Organized Binder, like the quick version?

16:03Like what is Organized Binder? Well, it's a program that I had no intention of ever sharing. It spun out of my practice and that was back to, so when I did enter the classroom, getting here in California, I've worked almost entirely with multi-language students, kiddos, and they struggle. Many of them struggled academically or had a history of academic struggle. And as I got to know them, I mentioned this before, it's like, oh my gosh, you are totally capable.

16:34So there's something I'm not doing. And I tried to just figure that out aimlessly. I was not, you know, again, I wasn't conducting any research studies. And from that place, I started realizing that the more predictable the learning environment, the better, the safer students feel, the more likely they're going to engage with me. There were some epiphanies that came up, but if I had to give you the elevator pitch, it

17:05would be, and I'm so glad this is unscripted because if anyone's listening, I didn't know what somebody was going to ask me. So it makes for, I think, a more engaging conversation. But the elevator pitch is this, executive functioning skills are not taught. They're best learned when students clearly see them modeled and they get routine practice with them within the context of the grade level of a subject they're learning. Okay.

Organized Binder

17:32Which is why I'm going to go out on a limb. I'm just going to, I'm going to put a flag in the ground here, which is why curriculums on teaching executive functioning skills, one, are usually really boring and two, they don't work. And three, they get placed in like a homeroom or an advisory class. So they're already at a disadvantage because young people, students don't see those classes as the same as their quote unquote four subjects, right? But what's more engaging for young or old people alike, a lesson or a unit on goal setting

18:03and the importance of goal setting and how you should set goals and why you should set goals? Or how about we just set goals in fifth grade and we keep them timely and I could talk about the SMART acronym. It's not a goal setting acronym, it's actually a goal reviewing acronym in my mind because kids are not going to know, is this a SMART goal? Is it measurable? Is it attainable? Is it, I don't know, I've never done this and I'm 10 years old or I'm 15 years old. So it's great once the goal, it's established and I can look and say, well, does it fit that

18:37acronym? But point being is what's more engaging that curriculum or let me actually set goals and see over the next six to eight weeks, is it working? And then we'll assess that and re-engage. So the elevator pitch is that organized binder makes, there's three keys for equipping students with executive functioning skills, clarity, modeling, and routine. And the clarity comes from modeling and routine. And the model is, yes, everybody who's listening, it is an analog education technology.

19:09I've changed my language on that because I firmly believe that EdTech is not just screens, but it is a tool that brings clarity. So when I ask a student to get organized or stay organized, I can model that for them in a way that they see it every single day. So there's an accountability piece there, as opposed to me equipping you with this thing and saying, hey, this is going to help you get organized. This is going to actually help you with your goals. This is where the calendar is going to be practiced, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

19:40Well, I'm going to do it too. And I'm going to have this model because here's the other thing. I'll say it quietly. Some teachers struggle with executive dysfunction. So some directors of learning services over here do too. So if I establish a clear routine, this predictable routine, here's the elevator pitch. And then I'll be quiet. So we're going to equip teachers with this very simple, predictable routine. What I mean by that is what does it look like when we begin?

20:11How do we transition? Where do we put our stuff? How do we conclude? Like this very consistent and predictable routine that you never veer from every day the whole year or whenever you start this work, right? The binder is the portfolio. That's the tool to participate in this routine. So in each step of that routine in an organized binder, if you were to go to the website and look at it, they're all different colors. It's all color coded for nonverbal visual cueing. So for me, the cognitive load piece for there was an equity issue.

20:43It's like I have students in my classroom, most of them, not all of them, but most of them, English is not their first language. So everything they're hearing and reading, they're translating in the moment. And there's a significant cognitive load. You know this better than me and anyone and most people in the world. And that's an equity issue. If you're sitting next to someone that doesn't, it's just not happening, right? A hundred percent. So if I can have you, if you're more likely to engage in this routine just by the color coding.

21:13And then just to be clear, there's also a letter that's associated with each of those parts of the binder, A through H. Because for some students, this is back to equity, maybe I don't see color like everyone else. So the fact that that's green means nothing to me. But the green page is the C page. The white page is the B page. The gold page is the A page. So, and my whole point was trying to say, okay, we're going to start at this place. I'm going to model it for you because I have a class sample.

21:45I'm going to project it for you. You're going to see it modeled with every other kid in this room. So you're seeing it. There's clarity there. And then by virtue of participating in this routine, you're going to get practice with these executive functioning skills. We're going to start by flexing our working memory through retrieval practice and spacing and all the stuff that we talked about in Delaware. And then the next step of the routine is we're going to check out our account. We're going to practice calendaring. We're going to do this and you're going to see it every day.

22:15Third step, we're going to take 30 seconds to get organized. Every day, I'm going to show you what it looks like every day. So all of that's mixed up in whatever grade level or content area I'm teaching. So it just becomes this more predictable learning environment. And by virtue of participating in that routine, I get practice, no stakes practice with these executive functioning skills. And you mentioned it earlier. This is not much of an elevator pitch, by the way. Sorry. Through repetition over time, pretty soon, I start to make these my own, which is that's

22:51back to cognitive load. It frees up working memory when it moves into my subcon. Like I can do this. Yeah. And it becomes automatic that I just come in and this is just what happens. So, okay, so I, the learning scientists are not sponsoring or we are not sponsored by, like, I just, I'm excited about this and I want to talk about it a little bit because so I have a son with autism and so executive functioning is a struggle just in general. Right. And one thing that we've noticed is the beginning of every school year is a hot mess.

23:25And I think it's because the routines are all brand new again. Right. And so he talks about the fact that it's so hard for me to hold it together all day long is what he says. And so it's, it's him getting used to the routines. And then once he's used to those routines, the rest of the school year is just fine. Right. Once we're like in a routine and it's the same thing. And, um, oftentimes we're told that with him is that we should have some sort of structure and do the same thing all the time. And I, some part of me is like organized binder.

23:57If it was implemented like school wide, we wouldn't have this problem because he would just walk in and have the same routines and that would be great. But I'm also thinking about transferable skills. And it's something that I worry about with him a lot. It's like, we have our own structures and routines that go the exact same way at home so that we can be successful and get through the day. We can get his socks and shoes on and get out the door. What's going to happen when he's on his own or what's going to happen when he's in a different environment that doesn't have that same structure laid out for him.

24:31And I mean, we're talking about my son with autism, but in general, to what degree, I mean, have you already seen that this is helpful for students when they get to college, right? So going from a high school, that's maybe using this to now I'm in college and I don't have those same structures. I don't have a teacher up at the front modeling this for me. Is it nicely transferable? I mean, we just talked about this, you know, the idea of behaviors becoming skills, but have

25:03you seen that actually happen in practice? I have. I have. I'm like asking you to give me hope for the future, Mitch, is what I'm doing. There is hope. And kudos to you to, you know, set that routine or that consistency up at home. I think every parent that has kids and you're trying to get them out the door can appreciate that of all, everybody. But one of the things that started happening in my career early on, teaching career, before OrganizeBinder became a thing, students who had graduated, again, so I spent most of my

25:38career in ninth grade, were writing back pre-social media, it's much easier now, asking for either the template from OrganizeBinder, these things that I was creating in my class at first, or sending me examples of what they had set up. And it was kind of unbeknownst to them, but they found themselves, like you said, in this environment, right? And now you're in college, whether that be community or junior college or a four-year or whatever, trade school of some sort. And you immediately find yourself in the presence of a content expert, right?

26:13Which is so cool, your job and what you're doing. We were chatting about beforehand. And no one's going to do any of this for you anymore because you're in college now and you're expected to know how to do it, even if maybe no one has ever shown you or talked about it. And these young people started figuring it out, like, here's my table of contents, check this out, Mr. Weather, here's it. Or just saying, hey, can I get that, this sheet and this sheet and this sheet, because I want to just apply it here on my own. Um, so they're absolutely durable or transferable skills, transferable competencies.

26:46Um, but I want to be very clear about this because I've had conversations even with middle school, like in a K-8 environment. And let's say we're doing an organized binder or a book study, an executive functioning work in, let's say, fourth and fifth grade, those teams. I know I've been at schools where the middle school teachers I've had conversations with and they're like, well, we're not going to do that work. And I'm like, okay, like, you know, we're not going to force anybody to do this, but why? Well, they're not going to have that support in high school.

27:17So why would we support them now when it's not the reality they're going to? And I'm kind of like, I just don't understand that logic. Like, let's pretend that we knew tomorrow for whatever reason, at your home, your place of work in your city, like there's no water. You're not going to be able to drink water for 24 hours. So let's not drink water the 24 hours before so that I'm ready to be really thirsty when I, that's kind of where my brain goes. Like, I don't, you're actually, it's really important that you do this so that they can

27:50transfer these to this new environment. It's the same thing with college. So it's, it's through repetition and modeling and seeing it and understanding. I can tell you what, all of your work, the science of learning, students are fascinated by that. When I talk about, and if I'm implementing retrieval or spacing or you name it, and I explain what I'm doing and why, kids are like, huh. And there's an engagement factor there.

28:22And it's the same thing. Like, time and task, all of these executive functioning skills. So it's, it is over time. It's being lucky enough to have an adult who is taking the time to share and model. And then one of the six in my work, accountability. Once I've made it plain, once I've created a predictable routine, I can hold you accountable for participating in that routine. And one of the byproducts of that is you have this organized binder where you're learning

28:54to get and stay organized, right? So if I hold you accountable for getting organized, and that binder is the tool for participating in the routine, by holding you accountable to get and stay organized, I'm actually holding you accountable to participate in the routine. And if by virtue of participating in that routine, you get daily practice with these executive functioning skills, by holding you accountable, I'm actually making it more likely that you're going to develop these skills over time. Yeah. So, I mean, I think it's, I think it's maybe important for the listeners to know that,

Transferable Skills

29:26you know, we're talking about organized binder a lot, but that is, that is a tool that has been developed to reduce the cognitive load on the educator for doing this work. But, you know, you were talking earlier about like how many of you were explicitly told to use a calendar or taught to use it. And I was like, I was, right? So I was, so my mom was great about these things and that's who did it, right? It was my mom that she was like, I don't have time to keep track of all your stuff for you.

29:57So you're going to need to learn how to do that yourself. And she did, she bought me a planner and she sat down and at the beginning of the school year, we went through all of the different classes that we had and we put all of our assignments in it together, like basically so that she didn't have to deal with it later on. But, but what she was doing was really teaching me something that, I mean, today, like my planner sitting right here, because in order to keep track of all of it, it's got to be written down or I'm not going to show up or I'm, you know, things get lost.

30:28So I, I don't think it's necessarily that you have to be using this one specific tool. The tool is just there to reduce the cognitive load of trying to figure out all the various things. And it's one very specific way to, to make that happen. Can I jump in there real quick? I just want to know that a hundred percent. And I actually, my first book came out in March. Yeah. That was going to be the next question, Mitch. I was going to be like, now tell us a little bit about that book. I'm going to make the segue for you.

30:59The book was written with that intent, trying because, so because we don't organize binders not rolled out or like there's a materials piece, there's organized binders and it's all the student material. You nailed it. It's about reducing cognitive load for teachers. You can just get these materials, have the training, we have ongoing support, go. So, but we get, I, I, I, at least once a week I'm contacted by an individual teacher

31:30that over, this is for years now, I want to, I want to do this in my classroom. I want to bring this to my school. And I've had to say, well, we're not morally and ethically, we're not selling to individual teachers. I don't want you spending your own money. I just don't, I'm, I don't, I don't want. Respect. Respect. We had had this conversation around, okay, so how could, what, let's get creative, let's talk to your admin. Maybe there is a budget, right? It's not a big lift, but it's not coming from the teacher. But maybe there's not.

32:01And so that pulled on my heart, teacher heartstrings for years. And I wrote the book to say, Hey, you don't need organized binder. You can do all this. Now I will say there is a cognitive load to that for you. There's things to figure out. And I unpack all of that book. I show examples of organized binder and I talk about how you can iterate for your environment or grade level. Um, so that was the impetus behind the book is how to, how I'm on a mission. I really am in my life.

32:32I'm on a mission to equip every kid with executive functioning skills. I think it would make a profound difference in their educational journey and experience in life. And so the book is written for all the, and not just teachers. It's also parents and of course, leadership, school and district leaders, but it's, if you don't have access to this program, that's okay. Start tomorrow. Pick this book up. So I have to say, it's been so fun doing book studies and even in person and virtual with

33:04schools all over the world, all around the world that are figuring it out for their environment and there's good stuff happening. The title of the book is executive functioning for every classroom, right? Is that correct? Correct. Okay. Just making sure I got it out. The subtitle is creating safe and predictable learning environments. Cool. Um, so we'll make sure that we include like links to everything in the show notes for anybody so that they can, can, um, see that what's on the horizon, Mitch, what are you going to, what are you going to work on next? You, you released a book, you got the next one started yet, or are you, you know, I, I've,

33:42I'm looking at it, that, that mission, that's a good question. I mean, there's some, there's some things I want to do and it might be another book. There's some interesting collaborations happening. It was, you know, but one thing I didn't anticipate is the, um, increase. I mean, I wrote the book to say, here's this program. Um, you don't need our stuff. I think it's going to make it a lot. You don't need me. And then everybody decided they needed you, right? I, I, and I've joked with colleagues and friends. I'm like, this might just totally put me out of work.

34:13Like I'm, you know, I'm like, okay, well, if I can do that, like, it's been the exact opposite. It's been the interest in the program and, but understanding it from a perspective of not just, here's this program. Like you said, this, this tool or this thing, no, it's, it's all the why it's the science of learning. It's the research behind it that, um, people are going, oh, okay, now I, I get it. Um, and so back to the mission thing, I, you know, this is my first book. I don't think of myself as an author.

34:44Oh, but you are. It counts. I guess I am. And, um, it's resonating with people and educators, literally all around the world. It's, it's a number one bestseller and it just keeps, it just keeps spreading. And so I think my, um, responsibility in that mission is to see it as I kind of see myself as like halfway through the job of writing the book. If my goal is to get it in the hands of every K-12 and higher ed educator and parent

35:15that I can to help, I got a lot of work to do and, and I'm not a marketer, so I don't know how to do that. And I'm having fun learning about spreading the word and supporting that. That's been, it's been really fun. So on the horizon, I think for me, it's more of the same and, and trying to understand how to spread the word and the support as that has happened. I mean, I just love, like, I, I, I can hear it in everything that you say in your description

35:47of your background and like the common theme through all of this is like, you're just trying to make the world a better place however you can. And I love that. I love it so much. Yeah. Thank you. That, that is what it comes down to. And it's so humbling to, it really came from this place of like, I don't get this. And then when I found myself in the classroom at the, at the quote unquote front of the room, going back to that space and going, Hey, I know what it feels like. And we got to do something about that. Yeah.

36:17Like something's been done and I get to talk to amazing people like you and travel around and see stuff happening. So thank you. Thank you for saying that. It's a, it's been, it's been, um, an amazing community of, of educators that, that we've gotten a chance to, to work with and possibly collaborate with. And so I want to thank you so much for joining me today. Um, it's been wonderful getting to know you and, um, I'm so glad that we had an opportunity in our very, very busy lives to, to find time to have this conversation.

36:52It's so great. So thank you again. Anything you want to sign off with? Anything we didn't say? Echoing all of that. That's what I'm going to say. I absolutely feel the same. Thank you for having me and, uh, reach out anybody. I would love to hear from you. If this is resonating, fun to hear from you. All right. You might regret that, but we'll include your personal no in the show notes. It's in the last page of the book. I asked Corwin in the midnight hour. I'm like, I really like hearing from people. I'm not sure that was the best move, but it's out there.

37:26It's out there. It's out there. All right. Well, thank you again, Matt. Thanks, Cindy.

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