MadeGood: Salma and Nima Fotovat Lost Their First Business.They Grew Their Next One Into a Snack Giant.

Family business background

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3:25netsuite.ai slash built. It took a lot. Like some of the things we said yes to, I think probably retailers went to many other suppliers first and they said no. And they're like, okay, I guess Made Good will say yes. Yeah. We had one thing called a pizza box or it had probably 13 different products in it.

3:57You know what a nightmare it is in manufacturing to make one SKU that has 13 different products in it? But we did it. We said yes to things, not because it was easy, but because we had to do it. That was the only way. Welcome to How I Built This, a show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements they built. I'm Guy Raz and on the show today, how three siblings teamed up to create

4:34a bite-sized granola snack and grew it into Made Good, an organic brand that sold in tens of thousands of stores. A lot of the founders I've had on this show started with a clear vision. They knew there was a product they wanted to create. It's just that they had no idea how to make it. Take Krishna Kalyanin, the founder of Catalina Crunch. He had to figure out how to make breakfast cereal from scratch. Or Ben and Jerry. They wanted to make ice cream, but they literally

5:09had to take a correspondence course to learn how. But my guests on today's show had the opposite problem. Nima and Salma Fotovat are brother and sister. And before they ever thought about launching their own brand, they already knew how to make snack foods. Their family business, co-founded by their dad, manufactured fruit and nut bars for other companies. They were co-packers, so they understood the machinery, the supply chain, production, inventory, all of the complicated stuff that goes into making

5:40food at scale. But what they didn't have was a brand. And eventually, they decided to create one. Their first attempt was a line of fruit and nut bars that wasn't all that different from the products they were already making for other brands. It turned out to be a modest success. But for reasons we'll get into later on, launching those bars ended up with the Fotovats actually losing their share of the business in a painful split with their partner. After the dust settled, they came up with a much

6:10more focused idea. Instead of trying to make just another snack bar, they asked a very practical question. How do you make a snack that parents would actually feel good about putting into their kids' lunchboxes? Something that's organic, tastes good, and is free from the allergens that so many schools worry about. So no dairy, no gluten, no nuts. That idea became Made Good. They launched in 2014 with bite-sized granola bites. Granola bars came next. Then cookies, crackers, cereal, baked snacks,

6:45and a few ideas that didn't really work. But they kept iterating, kept expanding, and over time, they built one of the fastest-growing organic snack brands in North America. Today, Made Good products are sold in over 40,000 stores across the U.S. and Canada, and the company has sales in the hundreds of millions of dollars. Nima, Salma, and their sister Saba all still work together at the company in Toronto. You'll hear from Nima and Salma in this interview. Their story starts long before Made Good,

Early life in Iran and the war

7:17of course. They grew up in Iran, where their father owned a canning business. But in 1980, after the Iranian Revolution, a brutal eight-year war broke out between Iran and Iraq. Yeah, so I was actually born the year when the war started. And I remember the blackouts due to the war, and my dad would come out with his instruments and sing, or we would play games. So I remember it being a time of togetherness. But at the same time, I do have this one memory. There was bombings,

7:51and then we were forced to leave school early. So my grandmother came to pick me up, and we're walking home. And the bombings are happening at that time, so we can hear them on the streets. And I'm holding my grandmother's arm. And I'm saying, I'm not scared, but I don't know why my knees are shaking. So to this day, thunderstorms always remind me of the war. Yeah, as a kid, everything has a bit of a, you know, you don't know the depth of the problem. You're just taking it as it comes. You know, oh, we're going to go and hide underneath the stairway

8:26because the bombing is here. It just becomes a normal part of life. So did you just get a curiosity? Because, you know, there was, I mean, a time, the Iranian army, or actually, I should say the Basij, which was the sort of the units that were working with the IRGC, they were recruiting boys, 13, 14-year-old boys to go to the front lines. And I imagine, I mean, you were a kid, but I imagine it had to be in the back of your parents' mind that at some point,

8:56you might be recruited to go fight. Absolutely. They actually banned boys from leaving Iran as soon as they turned 13. So you could not leave the country. That's why we left as a family. But the month that we left was a month before my 13th birthday. Wow. I mean, we probably can't delve too deep into it, but just for some context for people listening. I mean, the Iran-Iraq war, I was reading about it recently, actually, in preparing for this conversation, and I didn't

9:29know. It's still the bloodiest war between two developing countries in history. Do you remember your parents being really careful about what they said in the house or even what they said around you just because they were worried about, you know, I mean, you're living in essentially, you know, I guess you could say it's kind of a totalitarian society.

9:53I have a memory. I remember because my parents speak English. So when they didn't want us to understand, they would turn to English. And I do remember this dichotomy, like this separateness, to your point, Guy, at home, we were able, we drank alcohol. We, there was music and all these things are banned in Iran. As soon as we left the house, we had to, women, even girls my age, five, six, we had to wear headscarves and, you know, long coverings to cover our body and act

10:25in a certain way. So outside world was very different. And when I came home, it was a whole different environment. Yeah. We could talk about this for hours and hours because it's just a fascinating story about what happened and just the contrast between life before and after. So your family leaves in 1988, which is actually the year that the war ends. It comes to a ceasefire. Exactly. We sold everything. We were ready to leave and they announced the ceasefire,

10:55but we still decided to proceed and we left as planned. I also would like to think that one of their main motivations was their girls because women's rights were non-existent and our grandmother is very active in women's rights. And she was also very adamant that we leave the country so that her granddaughters could also have freedom, freedom of speech, freedom of expression. So I think it was for all three of us to have that freedom, opportunity,

Moving to Canada

11:26better life. So you guys get to Canada as kids. You were 13 or maybe you get 13. I was 13. And we have another sister. Saba, right? Saba, yes. And she was, how old was she? She must have been around 10. Got it. Okay. So now you're in Canada. Did you speak in English? No. None. None. And did they put you right into public schools? Yes. The next day. I have a very vivid memory. I remember my mom dropping me off at the door of the school.

11:59Mrs. Palmer was her name. That was my teacher. And we were at the edge of the door and I was holding on to my mom's leg and her dress and I wouldn't let go. So there was a whole half an hour back and forth. And I was like, I don't want to go. They look different than me and they don't understand me. It's very scary. What do you remember, Nima? I remember our schools in Iran, academically, they were incredibly good. However- Rigorous, yeah.

12:30Here, the facilities, like the gym, the instruments. The computer lab. The computer lab. I'm like, this is like a- The access to all of this stuff for me was incredible. And the other thing that was different was that it was co-ed. So you sit beside girls. I mean, who doesn't like that? It's so funny you say that because I have the exact adverse reaction. I was scared of boys. So the fact that we had boys in our class was a negative for me at that time.

Starting the nougat business

13:04I want to ask you guys about your dad for a second. I know that he had a canning business back in Iran. He canned fruits and vegetables. And I guess that business did pretty well in Iran. And so once your family relocated to Toronto, did he want to do that again? Or I'm assuming he wanted to start another business. Yes. He wanted to start a business right away. He was at a mall one day and he's walking and

13:35he runs into a high school friend. They went to high school back in Iran like 30 years before, 20 years before that. Randomly, they start talking. His friend, Alan, has come back recently from a visit to Iran. He went to the city of Esfahan, has an ancient recipe or an old recipe of nougat candy. He's like, oh, I have this recipe on a napkin. Let's start a business together.

14:07Wow. So he says, let's start a nougat business together. Yeah. And my dad's like, okay, let's do it. And I guess we should mention nougat is a very popular Middle East, Italy too. It's basically, it's like whipped egg whites and honey. And then you embedded with nuts, but the base of it is whipped egg white and honey. And it dries into this chewy. And so your dad was like, I'm in, let's do it. Let's start a nougat business. Yes. They rented a 3,000 square foot facility. They

14:42bought used equipment. They had no food science background. And it sounds simple making nougats, but making nougat is extremely difficult. It's a temperamental, the moisture in the air, the humidity. They thought it's an easy thing to do, but it ended up being a very difficult thing. I was at Costco recently, actually last week, and I noticed they sell nougat from Italy. And I

15:14was thinking about you because, you know, there's a, it's not flying off the shelves, right? It's not, I mean, it might be in Iran or in Italy, but, or in other Middle Eastern countries, but it's just not a thing. So how did the nougat business do in Canada? Well, the insight that they had was that why are North Americans not eating nougat? Like there must be, we are onto something here. Yeah. Let's create something they're missing. So it was a grind. They were able to make enough money to just keep this thing going.

15:47And I want to add here, I think it's important context because our mom, the first job she had was selling vacuums door to door, and that didn't last very long. In the winter too, selling vacuum cleaners door to door. Because again, they had to do anything in order to survive. But she ended up getting a job at the Board of Education as a multicultural consultant. So that helped at least bring a bit of, you know, stability into the family until dad's business started to gain some traction.

16:20Yeah. And I think about, about four or five years into the business, things do pick up for your dad, right? Because he, I guess he and his partner expand from nougat candy into bars, like fruit and nut bars, and actually start like a co-packing business, like making these for other brands, like a white label business. Exactly. Given that they were already making bars, they, all they had to do was to remove the nougat as the binder and create a syrup binder and add fruits and nuts and make a fruit and

16:54nut bar. Yeah, makes sense. And meanwhile, you guys are all obviously getting older. So tell me a little bit about your involvement as kids with, with his business. What would you guys do? Salma, what do you remember? Would you guys go there on the weekends and like pack boxes and help out? Yeah, I remember my first job in the summer was actually going into the factory and stickering bars because I didn't have packaging machines at that time to do it. So I remember me and my sister would be lining them up

17:25and we'd race as who can do the more, you know, who can sticker the most amount of fruit and nut bars. So that was our, that was my first exposure into the, into the family business and on the factory floor. And we'd work right eight in the morning till four in the afternoon with one half an hour of lunch, but we'd be on our feet all day and we'd get $5 cash at the end of the day. And Nima, you were, I mean, by 1994, when, when, when your dad starts to make these bars, I mean, you're, you're almost what, 20. Uh, so you're in the, uh, so you're trying to figure out what to do.

18:00Yes. But, and, and you have no intention of, of, of joining your dad's business. Like you don't want to do this. This is not what you want to do when you graduate. No, I, I was open to it, but I was trying to first figure out if I could do something on my own. And I even looked at, uh, getting into the ostrich business. We went to look at ostrich farms. I wanted to start something for myself. What'd you do with ostriches? So I can tell you a lot about ostriches. Ostrich eggs, ostrich meat. Ostriches are the most productive, uh, animal because every piece of an ostrich you can use.

18:36So the eggs, the skin, the leather, the meat, but it just, it just never has never, thank God I didn't get into the business because obviously it hasn't taken off. But my dad's like, why don't you just come and join us? I decided to go and work for him and made the executive decision to drop out of university. Yeah. And, uh, when I joined, I was able to do everything because it was so small. So I ended up sitting in

19:08the front desk as the receptionist. I started to cut POs for ingredients. I've learned how to change ballasts on lights up on the ceiling. You know, it's a, it's a tiny business and you got to do everything. When you were, when you joined, right, you're, uh, in your early twenties and you're working with your dad. And did you start to think about, you know, this could be bigger or I have ideas here or, or, or not? I did. I was very much eager to take over stuff. I am a doer. I like to do

19:45things. So I came in, I'm like, Oh, Alan, you're doing payroll. Let me do payroll. Alan was a partner. Alan was, uh, my dad's partner. So first it's internally first I was focused on taking work from them so I could learn. And then once I start in a few years, I started to say, okay, now I want to get into how do I grow this business? Right. And so, uh, I started to make calls. I started to look for customers. I'm like, how do we get more customers? What can we make? And so that's when I started to build a little bit of ambition. Once started, once I got to know the inner workings

20:19of the organization, I think it took me a few years. Then I started to say, okay, how do we

Launching Taste of Nature

20:25start to grow this? Yeah. And I guess eventually you, you and your sisters and your dad, you decide to, to take the fruit and nut bars that you'd already been making for other brands, uh, and then and essentially sell them under your own name, under your own brand in Canada. Yes. Being a co-packer, seeing what other brands were doing, having helped launch a few brands, seeing what it takes to take brands to market, gave us a backseat view of what it takes to build a brand as a co-packer.

21:02And so we took that and we decided to rebuild our house brand taste of nature and relaunch it in 2008. You know, both of you know, making something isn't the challenge. It's selling it. It's the brand, building the brand is really hard. So here you are, it's 2008. How do you, how do you build a brand? What do you start to do? Get an advisor. You bring somebody in to help you figure out how to turn this into a bigger brand. Exactly. Like what is brand positioning? Why do we need to exist? What

21:38problem are we solving? And he took us to a great design agency as well. And we came out with this kick-ass artwork and design, which really stood out on shelf. I thought it was, I mean, I can say it. Oh, a transparent packaging. The transparent packaging. Half the bar was branded and the other half was completely transparent. It looked really sharp, really unique with white boxes, which weren't that common. So we cannot really, knowing that we don't have a lot of marketing

22:14dollars, making sure the packaging worked really hard for us from day one. So that was the work that we did. And we launched Taste of Nature in Canada in 2008. Okay. So you, and you had relationships with companies. And so how did you, I mean, were you able to get this product in mainstream stores, grocery stores? No, it was very difficult. I, we didn't have relationship with retailers. We were doing

22:45co-packing. So I had no experience, no contacts whatsoever. The only thing I could get master up was to get a distributor to list our products. Now, what I needed is, was a broker, a sales agency, a broker, because we didn't have our own sales, obviously internally. So what I needed was a broker. And I, it was an interesting time because it was the same time that Kind was entering Canada. Right. And you're kind of a competitor.

23:17Exactly. Yes. Yeah. This is how business works, right? We had Daniel Lubetzky on and the Kind Bar story. And, you know, we know it's a, it's a tough business. The bar business is tough and it's competitive and it can, you know, kind really worked hard to protect its branding and image. And at times even, you know, threatened other brands that had clear packaging, for example, with lawsuits. And did you kind of, were you able to sort of stay under, under the radar from all those battles at

23:48that time? Yes, we were in Canada. So it was not a big market for Kind. And until 2012, Taste of Nature was much larger than Kind in Canada. And it sounds like that this really becomes the business, that it's, it's really what you're making. You're making these bars, right? We're still doing co-packing, contract manufacturing. But, but how quickly did more revenue come from the bars or was it always coming from co-packing,

24:21co-manufacturing? No, it, it flipped on becoming Taste of Nature more and more. Co-packing became, contract manufacturing became less and less important. Now it helped because it covered rent. It helped with investing in the brand. You know, it was, I always say that this private label contract manufacturing is like having an investor because you generate the cash to put into the brand. How big, by 2012, how big was the business? I mean, in terms of, of, of revenue? Like,

24:56was it over 10 million? Yeah, it was over 10. We had a hundred employees. You know, we hired HR. We had like, we started, it was starting to take shape. Departments were starting to take shape in the company. Professionalizing the business. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So you're really gaining a lot of

The partnership split and buyout

25:16traction. 2012, your dad decides that he's going to split with his partner and sell the business. Tell me what you understand about that, about why that happened. As you heard, Sahbussalma and I were the primary people that were running the business. And it piqued the interest of my dad's partner to be more involved, both from the next generation coming in, as well as what is the purpose of owning this business? We were more thinking about

25:50reinvesting and growth, and they were more thinking about dividends and taking cash out. Sure. So there were starting to be misalignments in different areas or values, principles. And it didn't happen in 2012. It happened. It's, you know, it's, you think these things don't happen overnight. It was brewing and it wasn't being resolved. And so to separate from an equal partnership

26:21is not an easy process. No. Presumably there's a dispute about how to move it forward, which direction. Not unusual. We've had many examples of this on the show. It happens, right? This is the risk of starting a business with a friend, is that it can also, right? People say, don't start businesses with friends and family. You guys did both. You know, I think part of it, now that I think about it, part of it is also generational because us as younger kids or individuals in the business,

26:56we care less about taking dividends out and more about growth. Growing, right. Older generation. Right. At this point in your lives, you don't need it as much. You don't need cash as much. So I think there's disconnects in different areas. And we thought that we would end up with the business because we were so deep in the business that anyone who would want to buy this business or provide financing

27:26to the other family, they would want to have management included. But essentially, they said, well, actually, you've made an offer. Instead, we're going to use the same dollar amount and buy the business out. Correct. And on July 26, 2012, I was on my way to the office. And my dad calls me that says, don't come in. We were just delivered a check and we were bought out. Wow. And my sister and I

28:03were at the office and I see all I could see are men in suits walking into a boardroom. And these are men I'd never seen before. And I was very curious because we have a very casual office. So anybody in suits, I'm already like, what's going on? And our dad's partner's son comes and says, we need to talk to you. This is urgent. Come into the boardroom. And I knew obviously we had this bid out. And I was like, I don't want to talk to anybody. I need a lawyer. I was so panicking. I trying to gather my sister

28:36we're about to leave. And they're like, no, all this property is now not yours. Like you can't, you can't take anything. I'm trying to take my keys and my cell phone. Like, no, if this is company property, you can't. So it was just very overwhelming and shocking that this was all happening. I don't even know how we made it from the, from the office to our parents' house. But then we all gathered in the basement. I think there was a lot of mixed emotions. But each of you guys were going to probably get a little bit of money from this sale. I mean, your dad, I'm assuming is going to get the

29:06most from it, but you guys were going to get some money. But was it, did you feel like, okay, that's fine. We'll get some money. I'm going to be okay for a while. Or, or were you like, what are we going to do? We were not a generation two or not, uh, equity owners. So the money went to, it was essentially, uh, for my dad. And then there wasn't, let's say, wasn't, this is, was not a windfall exit. And I think beyond the money, I think the biggest thing that we, at least top of

29:38mind for us was just the loss of, of, of purpose and a loss of having work and the community that we had built. So we were cut off from that world overnight. It's like getting fired. Yes. It felt like getting fired. Yeah. I guess we got fired. But I think my dad being so just, you know, fierce and, and determined, he's like, okay, let's go. Literally the next day,

30:09we ended up going to Ikea, buying furniture, going to get cell phones. And we set up makeshift offices in the basement because he was like, we're moving forward. We're not going to sulk. This happened. What's next? He was literally like, we're going to start a new business right away. Well, he was just like, you guys, I think that was his vision, but he's like, you guys will still need to come here every day. And after a few weeks, I think we realized that this is a once

30:40in a lifetime opportunity where you actually get a forced blank slate. And we're like, this is a time where if you want to go our separate ways, we can go our separate ways. If you want to go start a restaurant or do whatever. So we kind of started very broad. Like right now, before we jump in and try to do the same thing, let's go very wide and say, okay, where do we want to go? So, so what were you, you mentioned a restaurant, for example, what were other ideas that you guys

31:11batted around? I wanted to buy an organic farm. Okay. I was really rooting for that, but that got shut down. And to sell the produce from the farm? And start to, yeah, cultivate different crops or it could be, yeah, commodities actually start to grow. Not an easy business. No. Glad you passed on that one. What else? What other ideas? I mean, don't think that we had some grand idea. It was like, what is coming to us and let's explore. Yeah. But quickly options started to get eliminated. We're

31:43like, because everything required risk and resources and experience, which we did not have. Whereas if we started doing the same thing, we brought with ourselves the most valuable thing, which was a decade or a decade and a half of experience. And there's no point in throwing that away. Forget about the money. The money was the least important thing we got from there. The most important thing was experience and the people we knew, the network, the reputation we had built. If we did anything else,

32:17we would sacrifice those two important assets. So it was a bit reactive until we settled down. We kind of accepted the reality. We went through the stages of grief and we're like, okay. Then I think it was in January, it was in January that of 2013 that we're like, okay, now it's time to get serious about what we want to do next. When we come back in just a moment, the Photovacs make hundreds of thousands of granola bars, but have to scramble when they're accidentally stamped with the wrong

32:53date. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This.

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Creating Made Good

37:45Hey, welcome back to How I Built This. I'm Guy Raz. So it's 2013, about a year after the Photovats had to walk away from their previous business. And they're starting to get serious about launching their next venture. And for Nima, the inspiration begins with his kids. My kids were growing up, and we were sending them to school. We were packing lunches. And

38:16because what we got from schools or daycares was that, hey, there is a kid that has a nut allergy. Please make sure you don't send anything to school that has nut allergies or may contain nuts. So much sunflower butter in my pantry at that time. Yes. Exactly. But I'm like, it doesn't really matter to us because our kids are going to grow up ultra healthy and they're never going to even know what's in a package. That lasted, I would say, Guy, for only a couple of weeks because as they went

38:47to school, they got exposed to all sorts of snacks that were not, say, to our standard of healthy, whether it was the Quaker Chewy bars or different cookies and snacks that were not free but not healthy and not organic. And so this is where we're like, oh, we started to notice a tension point. There is this three dimensions of tension. There is the tension with the parent, us wanting to do the

39:19best. There's the tension within society to want to be inclusive and keep everyone safe. And then it's ultimately the child, the kid, the tension of a treat, something tasty. So if we could solve that tension between those three stakeholders, we could have something there. Yeah. So we also enlisted a marketing firm that actually went out and did research around this white space and coming back with the fact that there is actually an opportunity of having a product

39:53that is allergen-free but also healthier, better ingredients, organic. That's the missing space. So that was something that NEMA felt tangibly. But then when we actually took it out into the market, we also saw the void in the market as well. All right. So this is 2013. It's not that long ago. But it was really – there was a lot of focus on and had been for a while on gluten-free, peanut-free, soy-free, nut-free, right? I mean, because just an explosion of kids with particularly peanut allergies and gluten allergies and all

40:27kinds of things. So you thought that was interesting. You saw an opportunity to kind of get into that space but also to kind of recreate the classic Quaker chewy chocolate chip granola bar. Yes. So I think there were some nuggets of insights that went beyond just making a peanut-free product. One of them was the fact that we realized when we did the research that it's not just the child that eats snacks. Snacks are bought by the parents and it's a family consumption. It's not a child consumption thing.

41:04And a lot of brands had launched products that were kid-forward. So that was an insight for us. So we did not – Made Good is not a kid-forward brand. It's an all-family. And 50% of our households actually don't have kids. And so there is a cross-section of making it small for kids but also 100 calories so that it's portion control for the adults. The other layer of insight that we had was

41:35that the allergen-free should not be a prominent call-out. It's something that it's a background. Yes, we're allergen-free but first and foremost, we taste great. You didn't want people to think, oh, this is not for me. Exactly. Like if you call something for diabetics, people think it's just for diabetics but it could just be a healthy, low-sugar, no-sugar product. And was the first product going to be granola bars? No, it was bites. Our bites is where we knew we wanted to disrupt the category.

42:09So these like little round granola chocolate chip or fruit bites, basically. Yes, they're sphere like a ball. Tell me about the name because the name is amazing, Made Good. Yeah, so the name, funny story, is that when we launched Made Good, many people called us and said, do you know that Made Good is grammarly incorrect, that you should say Made Well. Made Well. Yeah, which exists. It's a clothing brand. Yeah, yeah. So I think the name was really important and then we went to a design firm that was not actually

42:43a food-forward design firm. They were a cosmetic-forward design firm because we wanted a design that stood out on shelf, bringing in lots of bright colors. And no CPG company would say you should make half your front panel your logo. Made Good takes up 50% of the front panel. And so this was all design disruption that we did to stand out on shelf. Okay. So 2013, you start to really set this up. And from what I understand, it sounds like it's a similar

43:19model to what you had earlier, which was you were going to have your own production facility, right? Because I shouldn't say normally, but oftentimes when people want to build a food brand and they don't have a lot of money, they work with a co-manufacturer because that is a more efficient way to do business. You find a co-manufacturer, you give them your recipe, they package it up, they send you the finished product, and then you distribute it, you get a distribution deal, and you put it in stores, right? And by the way, this is the model, as you know, with many brands that we see at Whole Foods and elsewhere. You guys decide to build your own production facility. That's going to cost a lot of

43:56money. I mean, imagine, and where was that money going to come from? Yes, that was going to cost a lot more than working with a co-packer. We knew that was what we wanted to do because that's where we bring experience in. And being vertically integrated helps us with our cost model, but also making a claim such as allergen-free. I wanted to be able to sleep at night. You had to control the entire, it had to be like a pharmaceutically clean factory.

44:29Yeah, and this way we control that full supply chain, we control the manufacturing. And by nature, we're manufacturers, not marketers, right? So that was, I think, what we felt most comfortable that we could succeed in first.

Building the factory

44:44Okay, let's talk about the factory, because you're going to build a 20,000 square foot factory. Sounds huge, it's not actually, right? But it is pretty significant. How did you finance that? Well, the bank of parents retirement funds. Also, we went to an actual bank and got a loan. We securitized it with the homes that we had, and we went. And it's rare to get pre-revenue loans from a bank.

45:15But because they knew us, and they saw what we did before in the previous business, they agreed, before making a dollar in sales, to give us a loan of $2 million. But yes, you can't build 20,000 square feet of manufacturing with $100,000. That just doesn't work. And you got to pay rent every month. You have to hire employees. You got to certify the plant. There's just a lot of things

45:46to do from zero to manufacture. And you knew right away from the beginning, you guys did not want to go seek outside funding, that you wanted to figure out how to do this yourselves without any outside funding or partners. Yeah, we didn't want to get into partnerships again. Yeah. Okay, so you secure the financing against your homes, and you get your parents help you out a bit. You get the money to build this factory. And how long does it take before it's

46:20online, before you can actually start to feed it the ingredients and make this product? I want to say it was really quick, from when we got keys to the site, to when we started to manufacture our first order. Our first order was actually for Costco, for a contract manufacturing brand. And it was 300,000 bars. And so it wasn't your brand, it was for somebody else? No, it was for another brand. Okay, and they were going to go to Costco. And so the contract manufacturing was going to be

46:51a part of your business that was going to enable you to fund the brand, essentially. Absolutely. You knew that you had to make, perhaps, potentially competitors, in order for you to have the capital to launch Made Good as a Brand. Yeah, if you think about it, we use the same model as we did at Taste of Nature, private label, contract manufacturing, to fund the brand. So that's essentially what we knew worked, and we started with that. It's interesting, because that, again, that could be risky, right? I mean,

47:21if you're making a product that is similar to the one that you want to build, that can kind of cannibalize your product if you want to start a brand. I mean, there's always a risk in doing that. There is. This particular order, when we first started out, was actually making fruit and nut bars. So it was distinctly separate than the brand that we ended up with, and they're Made Good. But this order was, yeah, fruit and nut bars, and it was two flavors that we had to produce. And it really sped everything up, because we had a tight timeline. I think we

47:55had to deliver within, like, three to four weeks. We had very manual equipment. We had a very small team, because really, we just had to get people in, hired, trained. We needed to create processes. We had to get our organic certification, food safety certification. All of that happened in the four weeks, and we had to turn around 300,000 units of bars. And it was not without its heartache, because three quarters into that order, we realized that we

48:27made a mistake on the date code. On the date code? On the date code. So it has a best before day. Oh, yeah. It should have been 2014, right? Because it's a year after, but it was dated 2013. So we're like, just about done this order with blood, scent, and tears. And here we are, we had to rework a significant amount of it. Well, you had to unpack them, and the bars literally, like... So we had to figure out what to do. And we weren't going to make them again. We didn't

48:59have time for that, or the money, or the resources. So we found alcohol wipes. I kid you not. Okay? This is creativity at its best. Alcohol wipes to wipe out the date code and run the bars through the equipment, again, with the right best before date. How many bars did you have to do that to? Oh, my God. Nima, I don't remember. I know Sapa caught it, and she was just beside herself. 200,000 bars. 200,000. I think, yeah. I think more than half the order had to be repurposed.

49:33I don't even know how humans could do that. You had to get a bunch of people in to just carefully wipe that off. Yeah. The story here is, it just looks easy, but we walked through fire to get this thing up and running. Yeah. We used to call it, you dig a hole, and then you figure out a way to get out of it. We're like, we're going to take this order. We're going to figure out a way to make it, because that's who we are. We will deliver. When we come back in just a moment, the family business finally begins to roll out its own

50:07branded products, starting with granola bites and eventually expanding to dog treats. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This. We're supported by Anthropic, the team behind Claude. When I'm prepping for an interview, there's always that moment where I'm trying to turn a pile of research into an actual conversation. A founder's timeline, early decisions, big inflection points, old interviews,

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51:12that matter. From research to strategy to the tasks that slow everything down, Claude helps you stay with the work and keep moving. For problems worth solving, get started with Claude at claude.ai slash h-i-b-t. When I pull up to a gas pump to fill my car, I'm not thinking about chemistry or engineering. I'm thinking about getting in, filling up, and getting on with my day. And it reminds me a little bit of the founders I talked to on this show. Because the best ones obsess over

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Expanding into major retail

52:31Hey, welcome back to How I Built This. I'm Guy Raz. So it's late 2013. And until now, the Photovats have been funding their business by contract manufacturing granola bars for Costco. And at this point, they haven't sold made good under its own name. But early the next year, they're ready to roll out their own granola snacks for the first time. And the first retailer we went to is Loblaw in Canada, which is the largest grocery store in Canada. And the buyer had a son who had a peanut allergy. And so he's like, everything that's

53:10peanut free is garbage. I haven't tasted anything that tastes good. That's organic. And so I can see why parents would buy it. I'm willing to give it a shot. So they listed four items. You know how you get in, you get to the top of the shelf. And the top of the shelf is not a great place to be because it's not at eye level. No. But we were able to sell in because the value proposition, the way it was positioned back in 2014-15 was strong enough for the retailers in the natural aisle, not in the conventional aisle,

53:47not sitting beside the conventional players, but sitting in the natural aisle. We were able to sell in pretty quickly. Then the second part was that the packaging worked really well for us because it would pop. That kind of created that noticeability and picking up the shopper, the consumer, picking it off the shelf. And then the product delivered. Ultimately, when consumers took it home, kids liked it and they came back and the repeat was there. Okay. Here, here's a question because I mean, it's, this is where the story kind of, to me, becomes kind of

54:24crazy. And, and I say that in both a good way and a bad way, because I love, I love it when we have episodes where it's like, okay, we launched in 2014 and nobody's buying it and it's like dead and we're just not, and then, and it slowly grows and then it becomes, this is different. Like you launched this thing and it really took off quickly. And so I'm wondering what explains that because you didn't really have a lot of money for promotion, right? Or for a marketing costs. So, cause you know, you really kind of, you, you start to

54:56distribute this in 2014 and you debut this at Expo West in the U S in 2015, but initially you're really just in Canada. You're not going to break into the U S for another year or so. Um, but how did you get, I mean, if it, if it, if it's carried in, you know, grocery stores in Canada on the top shelf, how did you get people to notice it and to, to, to, to try it and to buy it? So I believe in the 100 mile radius marketing strategy. So when we started, we're like, let's make

55:27sure we own where we are. So, because we can drive there. If I can drive there and if my team can drive there, we can merchandise store, we can demo. And on the, with the help of my wife, she did a ton of events, farmer's markets. Every weekend she was at a farmer's market. And today I would say our brand awareness in Toronto is incredibly high. Maybe 90% of the people know. Yeah. And we built proof of

55:59concept and that you could take to the rest of the regions. And we didn't have a marketing team or even a marketing manager for many years after that. So. And you were, Selma, you really began to focus on procurement, on, on sourcing of, of ingredients. Yeah, I did end-to-end supply chains. So called out the same vendor partners, started to build those relationships. The only difference was that instead of, you know, buying pallets of products, I would be picking up, you know,

56:30boxes of raisins, putting it in my car, like bring it in. So it was just that different scale, but it was incredible how, how much also that community trusted and believed in us that again, not a lot of sales, not a lot of proof of concept, but really willing to lean in and forget about credit apps. Like, what do you need? How can we help? Uh, that really helped us to kind of get things going to make sure we have materials. Okay. So you are by, by the, by 2015, it sounds like you are distributed across Canada, right? Is that fair to say? Yeah. Yeah. By 2015, we're pretty much across

57:07Canada. I'm curious. When you take the loan out, how long to pay back that bank loan? How long did it take? I don't know if we've ever paid anything back because you just grow and you borrow more. So I don't know if we ever, we're never out of debt where we have a much bigger debt today because we keep manufacturing is a capital intensive, intensive business. So every time you double the business, we essentially have to double our footprint, double the output.

57:37And so I guess my question is, did you, did you know you were not going to be profitable for a while? Yeah. So it took us a couple of years, but I think we got into profitability pretty quickly because I am a great believer in a healthy gross margin. You got to build whatever one designs, whether it's co-packing, whether it's private label, which is for a retailer or whether you're doing your own brand, having a strong P&L, a good knowledge of your gross margin and when you can

58:10grow into it is really important. And we were, as the volume came in, we were able to get to break even and profitability by maybe 2015. I got to go look back, but it was pretty early. So, all right. So you are, and when do you get into you, into the U.S. market and how? Interesting. The U.S., we get in just into the Northeast, a one region of Whole Foods, the Northeast region of Whole Foods. So we kind of do a little test first in 2015.

58:41With 10 stores, 10 top stores in Manhattan, I hire a merchandiser, I hire a demo crew, and I made sure that when we're listed there, we have great numbers. And so we launched nationally in Whole Foods in 2016. I saw that by 2017. So about three, a little over three years in, you guys are doing about $50 million in sales. So at that point, I mean, you had, you were doing much more business than, than, than Taste of Nature had been doing when you left.

59:16Mm-hmm. It's crazy.

59:21That was not part of the plan. Another enabler for us was getting into Costco. I remember I did a road show in the U.S. and we went to see five or six regions. And, um, one of the regions, the Northwest said, okay, I like these bites are really cool, but can you put these bites, these pillow packs in a pouch? I don't want it in a box. And so when you're us, when you're able to make 300,000 bars by hand, like, this is a piece

59:55of cake. Of course I can put it in a pouch. So I'm like, yes, of course I can put it in a pouch. And then I pick up the phone and call Sahba and Salma and say, hey, we got to put these in a pouch. Okay. There's the, there's the sibling dynamic right there. So Lima says yes to opportunities. And then Sahba and I are left figuring it out. So it took a lot. Like some of the things we said yes to, I think probably retailers went to many other suppliers first and they said no. And they're like,

1:00:27okay, I guess Riverside or Maidgood will say yes. And it was just, you know, value packs, six flavors. We had one thing called a pizza box where it had probably 13 different products in it. I know what a nightmare it is in manufacturing to make one SKU that has three, 13 different products in it, but we did it. We said yes to things, not because it was easy, but because we had to do it. That was the only way. Okay. I want to just be clear. Riverside of course is the parent company. Maidgood is the main brand,

1:01:00but Riverside would also, I mean, through Riverside, you could also launch other brands, right under that, that parent company. And, um, you decided to, I don't know if it was a separate brand or if it was under Maidgood, but a new brand called Good2Go, which you launched in 2018. This was, this was the sort of like, um, it was a part of the keto. I shouldn't say craze because it never became a craze, but I think there was always this assumption. I was keto for a year

1:01:30and I always assumed that this was going to blow up and it just, it just hasn't. It's really hard. You got to eat a lot of fat, a lot of protein. Tell me about this experiment. What was the, that idea was to create a totally separate brand that was for people who are keto?

New brands and product lines

1:01:48Yeah. And another, one of the challenges with an entrepreneur, I think that I am is, uh, the, the shiny object syndrome. It's like, Oh, there's an opportunity here. Let's run after it. We can do it. And I think one lesson that I've learned, and it took a, it's, it's, it's taken a number of these examples that we got to be really careful on how we deploy our resources and against, but, but

1:02:18Riverside is here so that we can become one day a house of brands. And we are looking for creating that next brand that we want to house under Riverside. And that is intentional. Got it. Okay. So the good to go brand didn't quite take off. I mean, I guess you discontinued it not that long ago. Right. And, and I mean, this was out there for, I don't know, six years or so or a little bit more. What, what was the kind of the signal that told you it's time to kind of sunset

1:02:51this product? Well, I think we had several signals. Maybe we didn't listen to some of them. If I'm going to be perfectly honest, because I think we had, uh, earlier on, we had some quality issues with the product. So we had to reformulate the product in turn. I don't think we put in enough marketing behind it. It wasn't growing. So the product wasn't growing and it's an opportunity cost. Anytime you are distracted doing something, you're not, we weren't focusing

1:03:22on the, on growing made good. Which brings me to another product that you put out, Cookie Pal, which is for pets. I mean, I'm, I'm, it's, to me, it's really interesting because I, I love just trying different things, but some other people might say, well, you really want to stay disciplined, like focus on the core thing and really go deep and, you know, build out the brand and the things coming out of that. So tell me about, about the cookie, about the dog treats. I didn't go to

1:03:53business school. As you can see, I'm, I'm, I'm learning everything. I didn't, they didn't tell me about the focus part. I, or I skipped it. Well, you've got your pet and you love your dog and you're like, let's make something for the dog. Actually, he didn't have a pet at that time. It's funny. It's interesting, but Cookie Pal is still alive. So that's a different kind of story. It's a good business. Yeah. It's what we did is we separated it. So it's got its own team and it's operating independently. So it's not distracting us. That's right. Part of the story

1:04:25of Cookie Pal, it, it, it connects to the saying yes to customers. So at a Costco bar out of Western Canada, she moved her desk from department 12, which was the bar to the pet side. And she called me and she said, Nima, I see a great opportunity. There aren't any human grade pet treats. If you can get me something, I will list it here for you. Human grade. I mean, in other words, something that humans could also eat. Yeah. So right now, Cookie Pal, you can eat Cookie Pal yourself or you can give it, and you can give it to your dog. I've heard that about like other dog

1:04:58food, that it's human grade. You know, you can eat this dog food. I just, I have two dogs. I love them. I, even if it's human grade, I'm just not going to eat it. Well, you haven't tried Cookie Pal yet, that's why. I haven't. All right. So you've got, you've got that going. And, and, um, I'm, I'm also just kind of curious about, um, you know, some of the, just the, the, the, as you grow, right. And as you get more sort of awareness around made good products, um, how do you start to think about

1:05:32other skews, other things, right? You've got granola bars and you're, then you, you've got the bites. And then eventually you're going to move to like muffins and cookies and, uh, you know, even now like snacks, like, um, uh, not, not goldfish, but goldfish like puffed snacks. So tell me how you start to think about, uh, developing new products. So early on, we didn't have, uh, the discipline of marketing and insights and research. So innovation was done by primarily by me and my

1:06:12thesis was, Oh, goldfish. Wouldn't it be nice if we did what, um, we did for chewy granola bars for goldfish, right? So that was the, it was literally, that was it. There was no like market research, no, like, uh, uh, and consulting group that came in. It was just a thought. Yes. And then I like it. And then I love equipment. I love machinery. I'm manufacturing guys. I'm like, Oh, I go to Europe. I see this cracker line. It looks so good. I'm like, we'll buy it. Machinery that can make

1:06:47crackers. Yes. Cause you need the machine. We have to make it. We're not co-packing it. That's the thing that makes it difficult. Like every time we have an idea, we have to build the capability from ground up. So that's how it used to be. Right. Now we have much smarter, more capable people that are looking at these decisions and like, who made these decisions? Uh-huh. Cleaning up. Cleaning up the mess. Yes. How much time do you give something before you decide, or is there a formula or is it more

1:07:20just intuition? Like, or do you really now use data? I mean, let's say the, you know, the, the, the, the puffs, the pizza puffs or the cheddar puffs, uh, you know, you put them out there and, and how, how long before you're like, okay, we're good. This is working. Well, there is the emotional barometer. Yes. And then there's the factual data barometer. Which is the one that matters. Really? Okay. Yeah. Okay. We've been going on the latter one for a while. So.

1:07:50So yes, we are moving from the emotional to the data, uh, barometer to make these decisions. So you heard Salma describe the reformulations that we did on the good to go product. I'm like, no, we cannot give, we got to make it better. What can we do? Like, it's just like, I'm not, I'm not letting go. But again, it's another, is it worth the fight? And is the energy that I'm putting against this, can I deploy it against something else that has more potential?

1:08:24Yeah. Um, and I know that there are a couple of things that, that some challenges you guys had

Handling a major recall

1:08:37run into. There was a drought in 2023, which affected, you know, supply chain, but I want to, I want to jump into something that happened in 2024, which happens to a lot of brands. It's not uncommon. Um, you, you've got product on a, on a, on the, on the line and some tiny, you know, piece of machinery breaks off at some point and somebody discovers a little metallic piece in a product. It's a nightmare. Happened to you guys, a tiny little bristle from a brush, uh, had gone

1:09:11into a product. And this really help, help us understand. Cause you have to recall like two and a half million cases, help us understand the effects of that on the business. Like what, that's like a huge hit, right? It was such an incredible learning experience. I am today sitting here. I'm grateful it happened. A few things. One is nobody got hurt. And sometimes I wonder, did we overreact? But that's okay because I'd rather be on the safe side and recall as much product as I'm just, if I'm,

1:09:48if there's a little bit of a chance of it not being safe, then we should just call it. Right. So those are hard. That's a hard decision. It's not a cheap decision and it could have a lasting impact on the organization. But when you put principles in place, the decision becomes really a black and white decision and just make the call. But I think not that it was easy, but I think once we made that decision, it kind of, there was, I know for me, it was a bit of a relief as well that, okay, we're owning this. Everybody showed up again, our values at play. Uh, I think it was

1:10:25remarkable to see how much everybody cared. Yeah. To show up. It was over Christmas. Christmas was canceled. I bet. Yeah. For most of us, no vacations. And you got a lot of press attention, which you probably didn't want at the time around this. Absolutely. Um, now there was a lot of turbulence inside Riverside because we were scrambling. We hadn't done this before. Yeah. I think the, the silver lining is that our relationship with our customers is so much

1:10:56better because every time we go there, they're like, this was the best in class recall. If you want to have a recall, this is the way you do it. We call Riverside. If you want to have a recall, call Riverside. Let me ask you about, you know, just kind of overall, I mean, you, you've, you've

Reflecting on the journey

1:11:13built this business now hundreds of millions of dollars in sales a year. It's, this is a big brand now. And what, I mean, what's your sense? It's still privately owned. I think you guys own most of it. You did bring in some, I think one strategic investor at a certain point, if I'm not wrong about that, right? Correct. Yeah. Um, but privately owned. And so what's the game plan? I mean, what do you think? Is it, is it, do you think you're going to, your kids are going to take over it? Do you think you're going to go public with this? Do you think that one day you're going to

1:11:46sell this to, I don't know, a bigger, like a general mills or a Unilever or whoever Mondelez or something like that? For the last decade, we've been so focused on growing the business that we have not had the luxury to contemplate. Okay. What are we doing? Why are we here? What's going to happen? What do we want to do next? I think we're just, I'm speaking for myself, really starting to reflect on what is it? How do I bring value? What is my purpose? Why are we in this business together? And we don't get calls. Yeah. Nima gets calls all the time. He has a lot of

1:12:19suitors. Right. Who want to put in money, maybe private equity or other companies or right. Who want to buy you out. Right. Yes. Yes. And I'm polite. I like to listen because I say to myself, I don't know what the future is. The way I'm trying to reframe this is that we are caretakers of this business. As long as I don't get distracted with cookie pal and good to go and stuff like that.

1:12:50You're getting a little bit better. I'm getting better. Keep up the good work. Yeah. Can you give a rough say? I mean, it's a privately held company, so I can't verify it, but I mean, how much do you do a year roughly? We're not a billion dollar brand. We're in the hundreds and... Pretty great? Yeah. It's amazing. And it's Canada, U.S. In Canada, we're the number two brand. In the U.S., we are number six and the fastest growing brand in the category, whereas we have ambition to get to

1:13:20number two. I didn't go to business school, but I think I am experiencing the most incredible education one could ever have to be in my seat or for Salma and Sal, for us to be in our seats, even for our leadership team. Everyone's here because this experience is very unique. It's unique. Yeah. So when you think about the journey you took and where you got to today, right? And it all kind of collapsed in 2012, and then you kind of rebirthed this idea, new idea. How much

1:13:57of where you got to now do you attribute to the work and the grind, and how much do you think had to do with being lucky? First to you, Nima. I am a little bit of a believer that it's more than luck. I think it's karma or universe. I don't know. It's God. It's not me. Whatever it is, it's not me, but I don't know. Luck sounds a little bit. We were blessed with this opportunity. Half of it is that, and then half of it is we showed up

1:14:28and took advantage of this opportunity that was thrown on our lap. I'm a believer that everything happens for a reason. In 2012, I didn't know what that reason was, and it was scary, and it was angry, and there was all the emotions, but everything happens for a reason, and I think we're here today. Again, not just the three of us. It's everybody else that is either here with us today, not here with us today, that helped us to get to where we are.

1:15:00That's Salma and Nima Fotovat, who, along with their sister Saba, are co-founders of Made Good and its parent company, Riverside Foods. Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to click the follow button on your podcast app so you never miss a new episode of the show. And if you're interested in ideas, insights, and lessons from some of the world's greatest entrepreneurs, please do sign up for my newsletter at gyros.com or on Substack. This episode was produced by Catherine Seifer with music composed by Rumtina Arablui.

1:15:30It was edited by Neva Grant with research help from Chris Messini. Our audio engineer was Jimmy Keeley. Our production staff also includes Casey Herman, JC Howard, Alex Chung, Carrie Thompson, Carla Estevez, Sam Paulson, John Isabella, and Elaine Coates. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This.