Advice Line with Jeffrey Hollender of Seventh Generation

Introduction

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Advice Line Introduction

2:47Hello and welcome to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show who will help me try to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298.

3:20Leave us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. All right, let's get to it.

Jeffrey Hollander Interview

3:27Joining me this week is Seventh Generation co-founder Jeffrey Hollander. Jeffrey, it's so great to have you back on the show. Welcome back. I'm happy to be here. Great to see you again. You were first on How I Built This in 2021. And as always, if you guys haven't heard that episode, we will put a link to it in the show notes. And in that episode, we had you on with your co-founder, Alan Newman, that you hadn't spoken to in decades. And in 1992, as we talked about in the story, the board of directors pushed Alan out. You stayed on as CEO until 2010.

3:58And by 2016, Seventh Generation was acquired by Unilever for about $600 to $700 million. It's an amazing story because it really uncovered, you know, the delicate relationship between two partners. And you just have recently put a book out about your story called Built for a Better World, how Seventh Generation pioneered a movement that changed the purpose of business. So congrats on that, Jeffrey. Thank you. Thank you. I'm excited about it. Before I ask you about the book, I know that, you know, when you came on, it was a big deal because the two of you, it was the first time you had spoken in years.

4:34And there was a lot of sensitive things that we talked about. How did you feel about that? I mean, of course, the time after was hard, but on reflection, how did you feel about it? I felt great about it. In some ways, it helped reconcile some unresolved issues. And I think we both approached it with an openness to reevaluate what we thought we did right and wrong. And so it was sort of a growing experience in a way, a bit of a healing experience.

5:05So I'm thrilled that you gave us the opportunity to do that. I mean, it was clear that there was a lot of mutual respect. And it was, you know, it was hard because when partners fall out, it's hard. But the two of you came and really talked about that story, I thought, in a really candid way. You know, I'm curious about the book writing process. What did you want to do in the book? What was your aim? I wanted to try to gather together all the lessons that we learned running 7th Generation

5:40as a business that put its purpose ahead of profit. And I wanted other businesses who wanted to follow in our footsteps to learn from what we had learned and what I thought business needs to do in the future. Responsible business has not fixed all the problems we're facing in the world. And we need to make some dramatic changes if that is going to happen. Yeah. When you work with founders who have a social mission, right, who, you know, who want to –

6:14and again, that is – there's been a bit of a shift, right? There was a lot of that kind of startup energy happening, you know, sort of between 2010, 2020. I think some of it's faded a little bit, but there was a sort of the one-to-one, you know, buy one, we'll give one away kind of thing. And a lot of socially focused businesses, it seems like that has faded a little bit. First of all, do you agree with that? I can't understand why it looks like that given what you read in the newspaper.

6:45But when I look at who's signing up for my class and when I talk to people, the enthusiasm they have for using business to try to solve social and environmental problems, in some regards, is growing. But it's not being talked about as much as it was before because people are scared, sort of stick their head up and say, hey, I'm doing this great stuff. There is sort of this new language called green hushing, where people do sustainable things

7:15and they don't talk about them. And part of it is the sort of political environment we live in. And we have many aspects of responsible business like diversity and inclusion that businesses have a great business case for doing because it has a positive effect on the company. But it also comes with risks. So people continue the practice. They just don't call it diversity and inclusion. And they don't really publicize it on their website in spite of the fact that they continue to do it.

7:50And that's a confusing landscape. But we can't afford to have business take its eye off the critical nature of addressing social and environmental problems we have. We just can't afford that. Yeah. What – I'm curious because you also teach at NYU, right? You teach a business class. When you have young people who are saying, hey, you know, I want to do what you did at Seventh Generation. I want to start something that's going to have an impact and that's going to be a sustainable,

8:22robust business. What advice do you give? Because it's a very different world than it was when, you know, you and Alan were, you know, hippies in Burlington, Vermont, starting Seventh Generation. You have to really understand the business case for doing what you're doing. You can't just decide I'm going to do some good things and make some good products and make people happy. You really have to understand from a financial perspective why doing the right thing has economic

8:53and financial benefits for the business, makes you more competitive, and as I said before, helps you attract the best talent that performs at its highest level of capability. And there is abundant research, much of which NYU has done itself, that demonstrates that people that run businesses in a responsible, purpose-driven fashion generate better results, more profits, better growth. And as young students, they have to be very familiar with that landscape so they can make

9:29the business case to investors who want to know that that money will be used effectively and successfully. Yeah, for sure.

Christina Molinaro Call

9:37Jeffrey, great advice. Why don't we bring on some callers and see if we can give some more advice? Love to do that. Can't wait. All right. Let's bring our first caller. Welcome to the Advice Line. You're on with Jeffrey Hollander, co-founder of Seventh Generation. Welcome to the show. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business. Hi, Guy and Jeffrey. I'm Christina Molinaro, calling from Dayton, Ohio. I'm the co-founder of 25 and Pine with my husband, Nick. We build functional furniture for parents and kids to share, where you make your space theirs in 10 seconds.

10:08Awesome. Christina, thanks for calling. So you're in Dayton, and you make furniture for toddlers. Am I describing that right? Well, a bunch of kids' furniture is built just for toddlers and just for kids. And so when we had our son, our furniture stopped working for us. It was either made for them or made for us, and it didn't work for both of us. So you're constantly choosing to sit on the floor and be uncomfortable or send them into a playroom while you're emptying the dishwasher and they're somewhere else. And that's just like the part that nobody thinks about, I think, when they're designing kids' furniture, is that your space starts separating you from your kid.

10:43So we wanted to make furniture that helps you stay in the same space. So tell me a little bit about what the furniture looks like. Is it, I mean, do you sell sofas and debt? Like, what do you sell? So we built our business around side tables pretty much. And so where we started was with a table and a chair set for him. So for him, it's a place to read, have a snack, play with his toys, something that's his size and easy for him to use. Okay. But then for us, it also works as well. So it's weight tested for adults, but the chair that he sits in actually flips and becomes

11:15a stool for one of us. And then the table flips into a bench so we can sit down and be a part of it with him. So we're not hovering. We're actually like sitting and participating and connecting with our son. So when you put it on its side, it's a chair or a bench. And then when you flip it, it's like a bench for an adult or you could use it as a side table, basically. Exactly. Awesome. And where are you making this stuff? Are you guys making it yourself? Yes. So we have been making all of everything by hand.

11:47Wow. So you're doing it like in your garage or like you rented a warehouse space or? So we did start in our apartment garage. And then when we bought a house, we moved it to the basement. And then a video went viral on TikTok and we no longer could fit in our basement and had to move into a commercial space. And luckily one became available. So we've been there since. Well, and give us a sense of how you're doing on sales. So our sales over the past like five years has been about $600,000. Is that in total or is that every year?

12:18Total sales. Total, okay. In the past five years. Yeah. Yeah. Got it. All right. Before we dive in further, what's your question for us? So like I just mentioned, our business grew through organic social media, but we've reached the point where posting alone is no longer enough. So our question now is how do we build a sustainable way to reach parents who feel this problem before they know our product exists? Okay. Jeffrey Hollander, I want to bring you in here. This is a kid's venture chair and also an adult chair and side table. It's really cool. I'm looking at the website now. But of course, you know, it seems like, sounds like things have plateaued a little bit.

12:51So before you answer the question, thoughts or questions for Christina? Well, one thing I would say sort of right off the bat is don't give up on social media. Someone who's very knowledgeable once said to me, whatever worked 90 days ago won't work today. And it is constantly changing and constantly being reinvented. And I think what you have to figure out is new ways to use social media to continue to attract new customers. Because it's going to be the most cost effective way to reach people.

13:25And, you know, one of the things I found is my kids are much better at it than I am. So if you're run out of ideas, find some younger people, teenagers, you know, and they might be able to help you discover new places to go, new things to do, new ways to attract the customers that want to buy this product. You mentioned, Christina, something you said that you had a video that went viral or something that went viral in 20. What was that video? So that video, a bunch of the videos that have done well on social media were about this

14:00original side table that we had built our business on. The one that went mega viral was right before Christmas and it was a wine table. So you could, it would hold two glasses of wine. So you can imagine why that went viral. And then our sales went off and then that's when we were able to move into the commercial space. Was the video funny? Was it showing parent? Like, cause you mentioned, um, yeah, I mean, I've had, I have two kids that are grown now, but I remember toddler furniture is a pain. You can't sit in it. You can't, it's it, you know, and then when the kid grows, it's useless.

14:31Like, tell me what you did with the videos. So all of our social media up to this point is just me in the shop, in my woodshop explaining who I am, what we're doing, telling my story. Um, so now I think it's more of just like a, I'm it's, I'm in a different space. I'm in my house showing my kid trying to not show his face, which is a, as you probably know, a sensitive topic online. Um, so I'm still trying to tell our story and whatnot. I'm just looking for other ways, I think, to reach them because I don't know that if people are just scrolling social media that they're like, oh, this is what I need.

15:04I don't, maybe the messaging isn't clicking. Something is just, it's just different from what I've been selling for the past five years. So I'm just trying to figure out like what's next or what's missing or what I can do better. Yeah. Do all the visitors for your social media come through to your website? Is that how it's set up? Yeah. Uh, in the past. And so a lot of our followers, um, and email subscribers and things are from our old products and things as well. One of the things that you might look at is to also, there's probably lots of benefits to your product that people are not aware of when they see it online.

15:39And maybe there's an electronic newsletter that you can send out to everybody who's interested that shares more benefits than they might get from a TikTok or a Instagram message. And, you know, maybe it's about the materials you use. Maybe it's a story about a friend of yours who use the furniture in an unusual way. Maybe it's about the finishes that are maybe non-toxic and safer for people to have in their home.

16:09Dig into all of the stories that you can tell about your business and find a way to keep telling those stories and engaging people in ways that will make them feel excited about buying products from you. Newsletters are terrific. It's a terrific idea. You know, I was thinking, Christina, um, there is an opportunity because I'm looking at your website here and you see there are babies and toddlers using it and that's cool and that's great. And it says toddler furniture that doesn't look like kids furniture, which I think is a great message. You know, a lot of pet owners want pet furniture that doesn't look like pet furniture.

16:42And there's a whole category of that kind of furniture. But I think you have an opportunity to do funny things. You know, a couple of things you could take the videos that you've made that have worked the best and you could put money behind them. Some money, right? You know, let's say a couple thousand dollars a lot, but you can try it and, and really push it out on meta and tick tock and, and, and see what happens. But I would also consider using humor like, you know, buy, buy a, an inexpensive toddler chair, you know, wooden toddler chair that a lot of people might have, maybe even a well-known

17:15brand, right? And, and try to put your butt in that thing. And, and everyone is going to see that that is a nightmare and, you know, show that you've got the solution to this problem. I agree. And that makes so much sense. I just started some small running ads just to kind of test the waters and using AI just to like help me figure out how to do ads. Cause it is intimidating, but I guess my other like hesitation, I like the funny idea. It's, I think I get tripped up a little bit because it's, we're not, we didn't, I mean, we designed it better, but other people do like sell this product.

17:47So we have another product in line that's about to launch. That's actually, it looks like a coffee table and then you'd flip the top over and it has train tracks and spots for blocks to plug into. And so you can make little tunnels and things. So I think, um, what you're saying, I'm, I keep thinking about that table more and getting more excited about things that I could do with that as well. Yeah, I think you could do versions of it. I mean, I think the other thing is it might be worthwhile sort of seeding this with, you

18:18know, 10 or 15 creators or influencers who talk about toddlers and just saying, all right, we're going to send these out, you know, we're going to take a risk here. I see these sets are not cheap, right? But maybe you send a stool, uh, you pick 10 influencers, you say, we're just going to send it to them. And we're with no ask, but hopefully it'll work. And hopefully they might talk about it. Yeah, that's a good idea. And, and you don't have to go after people that have a million followers. Exactly. The people with 10,000, 5,000, a hundred followers are much more open to doing something with you

18:54and they won't charge you money. I think they'll be happy to help. And that's the way I would build sort of what you call brand ambassadors, people that love what you're doing and keep posting about it because they're excited about what you've accomplished. Yeah, that's a good point too. And I'm sure parents who are busy with toddlers running around would be excited to have something to make their days easier, which is exactly what we're going after. So that'll make sense. Yeah. It's a, it's really cool idea.

19:25I mean, again, I think, I think amplify the best performing content with some, a little bit of money if you can and try it and send it to some influencers with five or 10,000 followers. It's, that's, you know, significant and, uh, and see what happens. I'll try it. It's so intimidating, but I, I'll do it. Good, good luck. The brand is called 25 and Pine.

Phil Halstead Call

19:50Christina Molinaro, thanks so much for calling in. Thank you so much for having me. Big fan. So thanks. All right. Thank you. We're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, another caller, another question and another round of advice. I'm Guy Raz, and we're answering your questions right here on the advice line on how I built this lab.

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23:20Welcome back to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz, and my guest today is Jeffrey Hollander, co-founder of Seventh Generation. And Jeffrey, you ready for the next call? Absolutely. Let's go. Okay. Let's bring in our next caller. Welcome to The Advice Line. You're on with Jeffrey Hollander, co-founder of Seventh Generation. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business. Sure. My name is Phil Halstead. I am co-founder with my wife, Sarah, of Red Truck Orchards.

23:54I'm calling from our farm here in Northport, Michigan. And Red Truck Orchards produces vinegar from cherries. We live on a cherry farm. And our cherries are a super fruit. So they're full of these natural anthocyanins, which act as antioxidants and anti-inflammatories in our bodies. Our cherry vinegar is good for you. It tastes great. And it's made and bottled right here on the farm. Wow. Welcome to the show. Thanks for calling in, Phil. So cherries, I guess I should have known this. Are there like a big thing in that part of Michigan?

24:27Cherries are a big thing like in New York, Utah, obviously the Northwest. Yeah. But here in Michigan, we call it the tart cherry capital of the world. Oh, wow. It's here in Traverse City, Michigan. We're just north of there. Which is like the perfect cherry you want for a cherry pie, actually. It's a great cherry pie. And our vinegar is made from these tart Montmorency cherries that have these health benefits, but also very flavorful with the mix and also sweet cherries like those that you buy in the grocery

24:58store. All right. Cherry vinegar, I think pretty straightforward. You basically take cherries and let them sit in like grapes and turn into basically a wine. And then you let that keep fermenting and turns into vinegar, right? Kind of. What we've done is create a proprietary process in which we take the whole cherry without the pit. Instead of taking cherry juice and just laying it ferment, we take the whole cherry, yes, with yeast, create this exceptional wine, and then we destroy it with this specifically

25:29cultured acetobacteria we've developed to make the flavor and the type of cherry vinegar that we have. So it's a skin-on, double-fermented product. We're not taking juice. We're not taking and flavoring apple cider vinegar. All right. And so your product is cherry vinegar. And where do you, are you selling this mainly online? We're selling it online as well as we are just getting to about 50 retailers here throughout Michigan. And then we're trying to scale that up with a distributor.

26:01So this business is built to scale so that we can achieve our purpose, which is to support and strengthen farms here up in Northwest Michigan. They're in distress. They need some additional sustainable pricing, and we're trying to help them. So you're buying up the cherries and then turning into vinegar. And is this going to be your only product, or do you have a sort of down the line, do you imagine sort of creating a broader product line? Really good question. We see cherry vinegar as being like a new category of vinegar.

26:34So you have like your apple cider vinegar, you have your grapes vinegars. So we can make a balsamic version. We can age it. We can take it and flavor it if you've seen like apple cider vinegar. But it's a new vinegar base. And then what we want to do is basically we have a pipeline of these new products over time that we'll bring out. Great. And how much does a bottle cost? $17.99. So this is a premium priced product, which means it must be a premium product. It is a premium product.

27:05It has, if you think of it as apple cider vinegar, so we have the mother, we have the same acidity of vinegar. Vinegar is good for you. But then we have all these polyphenols and the superfruited cherries. And of course, as we get our scale up, then we can bring that price down. Got it. Okay. So you're still, and I imagine you're not yet profitable because you're still pretty new. Unfortunately not. Yes. Okay. And before I bring in Jeffrey, your question for us. Well, when our purpose to achieve and support local farms by producing this vinegar, what

27:37we're trying to do is really understand our messaging and actions that would accelerate trial and increase purchase intent. That's what we're trying to do. So you're trying to figure out a messaging here. Okay. Jeffrey, I want to bring you in here. I'm, as you are a healthy guy and I should say, I drink a tablespoon of diluted apple cider vinegar every day. I believe in it. I put it in water. I think it's great for insulin, increasing insulin resistance and blood sugar management. And I love it. So I've been doing that for years.

28:09Anyway, Jeffrey, messaging around cherry cider vinegar. Well, you shared with me some of the educational literature you have, which I think is terrific because I think the primary challenge we have is letting people know all of the benefits that this product has. That's a tough thing to do at retail. It's very hard to put all that information onto a bottle and consumers don't spend a lot of time reading labels in the store. So I would continue to work away at your social media.

28:43I think that there's many, many people that would be interested in this product. You have lots of information to share with them. And I would drive people to your website to buy by sharing the information on places like TikTok and Instagram. Yeah. You know, I'm looking at your website here. It's, you know, it's nice, but there are a lot of things that you can do, small tweaks, I think, that will help you start to shape your message. Jeffrey's talking about social media, which is absolutely critical.

29:13But you got to shape the message that you're going to deliver on social media. And I think that one of the easiest things, the low-hanging fruit, so to speak here, is helping people understand how to use this. So morning ritual, one tablespoon of water, upgrade your salad for lunch. In the afternoon, pour some of this in a glass with sparkling water and you've got a great pick-me-up. Just something like that, you know, where it's like one, two, three every day. And then you start to shape and help people understand how they should be using this.

29:48I think you also have to work a little bit on your search situation because when you type in cherry vinegar, you end up getting sherry vinegar, not cherry vinegar. And that is going to be confusing to your potential customers. And we got to get the algorithm to work so that it doesn't send people to the wrong place when they're searching for you because that's critical. Got it. Yeah. Good point. You know, I think that for you, it's really what you're after is that first taste.

30:21Like you need, you've got to get people to try it, right? You want to generate that first try. And I imagine you're going to farmer's markets probably locally, right? But, you know, let's face it. North Port is, I'm looking at the map here. I mean, Traverse City is the closest kind of big, bigger place. It's small, right? You want to get to Grand Rapids. You want to get to Chicago, Milwaukee, and you want to get into stores where you can sample this, where you can get people to just taste this.

30:53And you got to be there to do that. Yeah. Yeah. Nothing replaces those sampling programs because many people have never experienced this before. And you've got to convert them. And as Guy said, there's no better way to convert them than to let them taste the product. Agreed. We have sampling set up here locally, farmers markets, local stores, retailers. We're down in Detroit area. So we've got some distribution down there, about 10, 15 stores.

31:24But absolutely, we need to get more people to trial it and then follow through. What do you do after someone makes a purchase on your website? When's the next time they hear from you? I think we need to improve that for sure. What they do is we bring them on to our email list if they opt in for that. And then basically about every two weeks or three weeks, we're sending out email updates on the business, the farm, recipes. We have about 50 recipes online and building upon that.

31:55I really question whether that's frequent enough, whether every two weeks is sufficient. What are your thoughts? I don't think two weeks is bad. I have some people do that daily, and I find it quite irritating, and I unsubscribe. And I think the more fulfilling the experience of reading it can be by giving them really important health information and telling the story of the farm and the opportunity that you're creating for retailers, that's going to draw people into the product.

32:26And unfortunately, sometimes it takes many, many newsletters before someone will give you a second chance. But one way to monitor the health of your business is how many people come back for that second purchase. I would hope that it would be over 50% at least to know that you've satisfied them with what they bought. We are excited about that. We've got people in California, New Jersey, buying a third time, fourth time, fifth time, people buying two bottles, four bottles.

32:57They're sharing it with their friends. So we're seeing that. We just need to grow faster if we're going to achieve our goal. And I think a lot of it is just nailing down your message, right? Millions of people are interested in metabolic health. And so I would really tap into some of that, you know, one tablespoon of water to, you know, to regulate blood sugar every day, you know, upgrade your salad and then have it in sparkling water in the afternoons. Just hammer those ideas and start at the website and then build those out at the farmer's markets, on social media, videos of people tasting this and saying, wait a minute, this is great.

33:36So I would really start with just nailing down the message and then amplifying that out wherever you go. I like that. Super simple. Super simple. Yeah. Last thoughts for Phil, Jeffrey? Well, you know, as we talked about before, Guy, finding people, particularly people that people will recognize, talking about loving the product is a way to attract attention to your brand. And so if you can find people, and I would send them samples, I would find some people that maybe are really into cooking or into these types of products, send them a sample blind, ask them what they think about it.

34:17And if they love it, maybe they'll talk about it. Yeah. And finally, you've got a great story. Michigan cherries, specific cherries that really are about this part of Michigan. People love that, you know. And I think you could also lean into that as well. Okay. Very good. Thank you. And come visit the farm. I would love to, yeah. Bloom will be here in May and cherries will start in July. I mean, I think it's one of the nicest places to be in the summer for sure, right? It's gorgeous.

34:48It's going to be amazing, yeah. But keep it a secret. All right. We don't want too many people coming up. Phil Halstead of Red Truck Orchards, thanks so much. Good luck. Thank you.

Caroline Buck Call

34:57All right. We're going to take another quick break, but we'll be right back with one more caller. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to The Advice Line right here on How I Built This Lab. Building a marketplace is easy. Building one with a soul is hard. In an industry where healthcare is being handed over to AI and algorithms, Mochi Health's founder, Myra Ahmad, saw a gap that needed fixing.

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37:05Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz, and today I'm taking your calls with Jeffrey Hollander, co-founder of Seventh Generation, and let's bring in our next caller. Hi, Guy and Jeffrey. My name is Caroline Buck. I'm here in Oakland, California. My husband and I started Petaluma, a direct-to-consumer dog food company, making plant-based formulas using whole food ingredients like chickpeas, pumpkin, peanut butter, tasty stuff like that.

37:43Awesome. Welcome to the show. Okay, so it's a direct-to-consumer, plant-based dog food company. Yes. Tell me about – I'm sure the first question you get a million times is, well, don't dogs eat meat? Isn't that – aren't they carnivores? Of course, yeah. It's the same question that most vegans, vegetarians get when they go home for Thanksgiving for the first time too, right? Like, aren't you wasting away now? Yeah. Most people, I think, have been fed mostly like a marketing story about what dogs should be eating. They co-evolved with us 20,000, 30,000 years ago, maybe even longer ago, and they ate our scraps.

38:18And for most of human history and most parts of the world, we didn't throw out a lot of meat. So they had to evolve to have digestive enzymes to break down carbohydrates and starches, and they are true omnivores like humans. Yeah. How did you come – I mean, imagine you and maybe your husband are both vegetarians or vegans? Yes. I had been kind of flirting with being vegetarian most of my life, but didn't really go full tilt until maybe 2016, 2017 on a New Year's resolution.

38:53I just went cold turkey and never looked back. I have a couple of dogs. And living at the time in San Francisco, I had a very crystal conversion moment of walking my dog in Golden Gate Park and him playing with a pig on a leash, someone's pet pig. And I was just like, all right, I'm officially – the lines have officially blurred. I now need to knock this off. So it was a personal dietary change before it became one for my dog. And how did you come up with this business idea? Did you have experience with pet food?

39:25No. I spent most of my career in tech. I've been in the Bay Area for my entire adult life. I worked at lots of startups. I saw lots of entrepreneurs up close. It took me a long time to want to create something myself, but it came out of a need and a desire for a product. I was, you know, someone who wasn't buying meat for myself. I was still buying like a 20-pound bag of mostly processed animal products every couple of weeks for my dogs.

39:55And it felt really incongruous. And vets have been prescribing vegetarian dog food for decades to manage allergies. The most common allergies to dogs, kind of strangely compared to humans, is chicken and beef. So it's not new, but I couldn't find something that felt like it was a similar quality level to what I had been feeding before. So it started out in my husband and I making it ourselves in small batches. When you realize how much dog food you have to make, you know, that gets hairy quickly.

40:27And it took us a long time to make something that we felt really excited and confident about. And this is dry dog food, right? Correct. Yeah. We make our food in a bakery. So it's not kibble. It's made the way like a treat would be made traditionally in an oven. So slow, low temperatures. Yep. Okay. Before we bring in Jeffrey, your question for us? So my question, plant-based dog food is obviously polarizing and it takes a few minutes to get grounded in what we're doing and why.

41:00And my instinct as a marketer has always been to just be super transparent and let the evidence, let the science do the work. But I think the controversy of the category, it can spark a lot of conversation and curiosity, but it can also bring some outrage, especially in the world of running online ads or social media. So my question is, as a brand, how do you feed that curiosity without triggering the outrage? Oh, I got some good thoughts here. Jeffrey Holland, I want to bring you in here.

41:30Before we answer Caroline's question, any questions for her or thoughts? Well, just tell me a little bit more about the outrage. Where is that coming from? What's creating that? You know, I think some of it is that most people have never heard of it before. So I think there is like a bit of a knee-jerk reaction that people have of like, that's wrong or that's not possible type of thing. And then food is just, as both of you know, very emotional and polarizing.

42:00And people have super strong opinions and especially dogs have kind of risen to the status of children for a lot of people. So what you're feeding them is a big thing. And are there any health studies about dogs on this diet getting healthier than alternatives? There are excellent studies that have come out in the last just two years, really, showing that they go to the vet less often. There's lots of really specific things about plants that are similar to the benefits that humans get when they eat more fiber, for example.

42:32Or they have more, you know, anti-inflammatory rich foods in their diet. But I would say like the most compelling evidence is just that it's as good and probably better than a lot of traditional dog foods. And I think that's, I've tried to, I've kind of strayed away from making a claim that it's like so much better because I don't want to lose people in feeling like I'm proselytizing or being preachy. I think you have to question that because I'm not sure people want to buy something that's as good as what they're getting now.

43:07Or as good as something else that they can get. So I'm not sure I would go with that positioning. I think you've got to feel proud about what you're selling. And if it's not better, make it better. Because I think to survive, you've got to have a better alternative than other people have. You've got to have a story that talks about why you are better. And to the extent possible, you have to have evidence that backs that up. Yeah. Yeah. So it's interesting because I'm looking at your website. Okay. And it says guilt-free shelf stable.

43:40And now I click on the website, Jeffrey, for seventh generation. And what does it say? The first thing it says is leave dishes extra clean. It doesn't say guilt-free cleaning. It doesn't say a better safe. It says extra clean dishes. It's talking about the function. And I think, to me, I think that if you start with, hey, it's guilt-free, it can be polarizing. Because some people might say, I don't feel guilty about serving my dog meat-based foods.

44:10But I think you should really use that skepticism as the fuel to tell your story and really actually surface that. So if you were to make a video or you were to even have a message on your website, you would start with like, wait a minute, dogs can eat plant-based? Is this actually, like, good for them? Because this sounds wrong. And then you can say, well, that's a fair question. So let me kind of walk you through it and really say, well, actually, their bodies really respond well to simple whole foods like, you know, peanuts, peanut butter and, you know, oats or whatever you're putting in the food, sweet potatoes.

44:53You know, a crazy idea, but I think your best customers are going to be vegetarians who have dogs. And if you can find people who are vegetarians and have dogs, you're going to make a quick connection with the belief they already have about this diet being healthier and the logic of it's good for me, it's probably good for my dog. Yeah, that's definitely been our core customer in the last two years has been that person who already has made that choice for themselves.

45:24They've already, you know, they've lived the Thanksgiving dinner without the turkey for many years. Yeah. How do you find those people? Today, I mean, it's a lot of word of mouth, organic traffic to our site. We do run ads, mostly on Google, and we do run some, like, very small social campaigns. I've lost a bit of a stomach for social advertising. I haven't given up on it. We still do it in a smaller way. You're wading into the deep end sometimes, and it can be a lot. And you are direct-to-consumer only, right?

45:55You're not doing – are you doing farmer's markets? We are in Erewhon stores in Los Angeles. Oh, amazing. Other than that, we're in just really small pet boutiques, mostly in L.A. and San Francisco. Jeffrey, I'm going to disagree with you. I don't think that they want to only appeal, to predominantly appeal to vegetarians. This is a very small market. I mean, we've looked at this. The number of people who are vegetarians in the U.S. is tiny. It's not enough, right? You want to appeal to people who do eat meat, but who might say, wait, this is interesting. Like, I'm looking at your site here, and, you know, I have an old dog, right?

46:28And my old dog has some kidney challenges. And I see that maybe some of your food could benefit her, right? It's like that kind of stuff, you know, that I would really lean into. But start with this – acknowledge this skepticism. Acknowledge because we have been sort of trained to think that dogs need to eat meat protein. And also, dog food's gross. The way they use that scrap meat and just the crappiest cuts of meat is really nasty.

47:01And it's why there are brands, premium brands of, like, refrigerated dog food that have done so well because they are focused on, you know, really expensive cuts. You have an alternative here, and it's a great alternative. And that's why I would try to lean into social media, give it another chance, but try it with this, hey, I get the skepticism kind of message. Yeah, I think that's a great point. I think I've developed a cipher spine in the last few years, too.

47:32It's just polarization comes with some downsides, right? Like, I think it just – you have to kind of treat it as a sunk cost. What's the mix between online and retail sales? It's like 99% online. Okay. So these are repeat customers? Yes. Yeah. Our core is subscribers. Awesome. Retail will take a lot of energy and a lot of attention. And if 99% of your people are coming online, that's where I would focus my energy.

48:04I agree. And I think dog food is still one of those things that makes a lot of sense for subscription. It's awkward to buy. It's heavy. It's bulky. You can't run out.

48:14So I agree with you. And also, I don't have any experience in retail, so that's been a big reason why we haven't done it. I see you're doing free samples, which is really smart. Try before you buy. The other thing I would – I don't know if you're doing this in your site, but, you know, every time you switch a dog's or any pet's food, except for one of my pets, he'll just eat anything. She will eat – they're finicky, right? Sometimes, like, what is this? And so, you know, maybe you should also encourage people to, hey, start – just mix it in with your food and try that.

48:46And similar to humans, like, if you're not 100% plant-based, you still get benefits from eating plants, right? Like, it's not a pure – it doesn't need to be all or nothing. Incorporating more fibrous foods in your dog's diet is positive. That's actually a very controversial sentence in the pet food world, but I feel confident in saying that. Adding more plants to your dog's diet is a good thing. Yeah, I agree. Jeffrey, any final thoughts here? No, I would agree with Guy.

49:18You can't give up on social media. It's critical to grow your business. And experiment with small amounts of money until you strike on something that works well. But you got to experiment. Yeah, and one other thing is I think you got to – I'm going to throw something at you and it's going to be a pain, but I think you got to introduce dog treats. We have a chew, like a jerky, but not a treat. That's something we've been toying with for a while.

49:48So we have, like, a – it's just a single ingredient, sliced, dehydrated sweet potato that's, like, an alternative for, like, a chicken jerky. Okay, nice. That's great. And that's a good start. And maybe you can distribute that to, you know, some of these boutiques or cool stores that you like that where people take their dogs and people could just hand them a, you know, a treat. So you may want to try something like that. But I do think giving people the opportunity to start with a treat could be really cool. That's a good idea.

50:18Yeah. Caroline Buck, the brand is called Petaluma. It is a plant-based dog food company. Good luck. Thank you for calling. Thank you. Jeffrey, before I let you go, I ask this question of every guest who's coming back on to the advice line, which is if you could go back to your time at 7th Generation when you really were, like, you know, catalog business and just starting this out.

Jeffrey Hollander Reflections

50:39And what do you wish you would have known back then that you now know with, you know, decades of experience and perspective that might have been helpful for you back then? One of the things that I've reflected on is growth. I think that we need to monitor how obsessed we are with how fast we grow because it's a dangerous thing to be moving so quickly.

51:12And it's stressful and it challenges your employees. And I think that we need to, you know, I was excited when we were growing 50% every year, but it was killing people at the same time. So I would say pick something that's more in moderation, that is comfortable, that doesn't create the challenges and the stress and the sleepless nights that growing that quickly does. That's 7th Generation co-founder Jeffrey Hollander. Jeffrey, thanks so much for coming back onto the show. My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

51:44And by the way, if you haven't heard Jeffrey and his co-founder Alan Newman's original How I Built This Episode about 7th Generation, you've got to check it out. It's really, really good. It's got a lot of wisdom. It's a great episode. Check it out. And here's one of my favorite moments from that interview. We were working with a tissue paper manufacturer out in Wisconsin that made all the paper products. Yeah. They thought we were crazy, by the way, because, you know, we were selling unbleached, 100% recycled fiber bathroom tissue, which was the scratchy stuff that you found in a gas station.

52:18And we insisted that it said made with 100% recycled paper. It had always been made with 100% recycled, but they hid that in all the material. Oh, because consumers didn't want that? No. Why would consumers want recycled? Toilet paper made of recycled paper? They thought we were absolutely out of our mind. Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. And by the way, please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for free at gyros.com or on Substack. And, of course, if you're working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one-minute message that tells us a little bit about your business and the questions or issues you are currently facing, because we would love to try and help you solve them.

53:01You can send us a voice memo at hibt at id.wondery.com or call us at 1-800-433-1298. You can leave a message there and make sure to tell us how to reach you. And by the way, we'll put all of this in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Sam Paulson with music composed by Ramtin Arablui. It was edited by John Isabella, and our audio engineer was Jimmy Keeley. Our production team at How I Built This also includes Alex Chung, Carla Estevez, Casey Herman, Chris Messini, Elaine Coates, JC Howard, Catherine Seifer, Kerry Thompson, and Neva Grant.

53:37I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab.

53:47You've been listening to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab.