Advice Line with Ben Goodwin of Olipop

Sponsor message

0:00This episode is brought to you by JustWorks, one platform that handles the complicated stuff, payroll, benefits, global hiring, and makes running a small business 1 million percent smoother. Stick around. I'll tell you more later in the show. Building a business means being 10 people at once. The strategist, the spreadsheet person, the one fixing the office sink. U.S. Bank made a card for exactly that kind of hustle. The creditor and issuer of this card is U.S. Bank National Association, pursuant to a license from Visa USA, Inc. Some restrictions apply.

Olipop co-founder Ben Goodwin joins Guy Raz

0:38Hello and welcome to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show who will help me try to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Leave us a one minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. All right, let's get to it. Joining me this week is Ben Goodwin, co-founder of the prebiotic soda brand, Olipop. Ben, it's great to have you back on the show.

1:22Guy, absolutely a thrill to be back with you again. So, Ben, you were first on the show not that long ago, 2024, when you told the story of Olipop, of course, and you spent years developing a completely different soda brand that you then had to walk away from with very little in return. But you eventually, after much struggle, rebounded from that experience and created Olipop, a brand that is so hard. It's amazing. It's now valued at over $2 billion, maybe more. That was the last I saw, which was last year.

1:53Yeah. It is such a great story. And as always, for those of you who have not heard that episode, we will put a link to it in the show notes. So please do listen to Ben's episode if you haven't heard it, the story of Olipop. It is so good.

Rebranding and remote work at Olipop

2:04Ben, before we get to today's callers, just a couple of questions for you. You guys just launched a kind of a rebrand, right? Like a refreshed packaging and a national ad campaign. Tell me about the thinking behind that. Yeah, no. Thanks for noticing, guy. Look, I think that, you know, if I reflect on where Olipop's been stronger and weaker since its inception, I think we've always been a really great pull brand. And a lot of that is, you know, the kind of original packaging and brand ethos. And then there's a great tasting product that once you tried it, it kind of was a delight how good it actually tasted.

2:41And that kept people coming back and that made people want to give to their kids. And so that's been amazing for us because it's created a really, really strong foundation. That being said, it's always been a really significant goal of mine to take the layers of our brand mission and to kind of competently translate them to the consumer, which I had never really felt satisfied with the level at which we'd done that prior. And so we have a new refresh to the visual identity, which speaks to all the layers of benefits you get out of Olipop, a new sonic identity, which I'm really, really proud of, and a new fiber education campaign.

3:21And I, you know, I'm really happy with how the early traction is going. We're reaching men at a higher rate. We're reaching older demos at a higher rate. It's the most effective advertising put out to date. And correct me if I'm wrong, I think you guys are an entirely remote distributed organization, right? Yep, that's right. You don't even have a central office. No, we don't. I mean, you know, David and I, when we first started the company, kind of were a little loath to commute or to force people to commute. And then, you know, you get this logical push from your investors. Hey, you could really use an office. And then COVID hit. And, you know, we spent about a year and a half or two years or whatever it was learning how to create a remote culture that could really thrive.

4:03And then once we had that rolling, there never really seemed to be a good reason to revert. It's really remarkable. I mean, given your sort of the valuation of the company and, you know, your sales figures, and I suspect, I think you run a pretty lean team, right? I mean, how many overall employees do you have? So, yeah, we're sitting at about $280 right now. And, you know, we might have closer to $300 end of this year, Q1 of next year.

Future vision and market strategy

4:32So, Ben, as you know, of course, last year, PepsiCo acquired one of your biggest competitors, Poppy. We also told that story on the show. And I suspect that was a very good day in many ways for Olipop because, I mean, when all was said and done with tax credits and so on, it was almost a $2 billion acquisition. And, again, I suspect that there were a lot of smiles around Olipop because of what it could mean for you in the future. I mean, tell me about the vision for the future of the company. I mean, you know, I think most minds are like, oh, well, then Coca-Cola or another, you know, Keurig or some other big brand is going to want to acquire you for even more down the road.

5:11Yeah, look, let's find out. I, my, and, you know, look, I say this and it's not coming from a place of coyness. Look, I think one of the things that's made Olipop have the level of success it has is the way that we really hold the impact of the mission as the North Star of the business. And so no matter what checks or opportunities show up, I don't want to live in a world where five, 10 years from now I'm staring at a product that's being delisted or it's been cratered out to the point where it's no longer providing value.

5:43For me, it's, it's like dead serious that we're providing real value to all those people who need the health benefit. I mean, we just published our first piece of human research on, uh, blood sugar stability. Um, and we found that, you know, in that research, Olipop didn't spike people's blood sugar, kept their blood sugar stable. We were studying the vintage cola in that one. Yeah. You're using stevia and, and like. Small amounts of, of real fruit juice. So it's less than, it's five grams or less sugar per can. So anyway, those things are always going to be really, really important to me. Now, I mean, my target right now in my head is, okay, I need to get to a billion dollars gross revenue. Uh, we're well over a half billion and we're chugging towards that line.

6:20And as long as we perform well and run a great business, uh, we'll have, there's the public path, there's the acquisition path. And then there's all sorts of weird paths in between. Sometimes you get a distribution deal and you still go public anyway and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. Ben, I'm curious, uh, and you may not have an answer to this right away, but what's like a, a, a widely accepted piece of business advice that you, that you've gotten over the years that, that actually is completely wrong?

6:50Or, or maybe in your case, it was wrong. You know, I think that oftentimes, and this is like, I think that people who are hardwired to be entrepreneurs will buck this kind of anyway. But I think, you know, anytime I hear the quote, something's market, you know, it's like a, and everyone kind of goes, Oh, this is kind of what you need to learn how to accept. And I'm kind of like that. The second you tell me that something is market is the second I know that we have to do better than that. So whether it's like terms that you're looking at or, you know, either with investors or with, I don't know, some distribution partners or just anything where you're, you're, you're compromising your standards.

7:31You compromise your integrity or you're compromising quality. And somehow that's considered a part of the Faustian bargain that you just need to wrap your head around. You know, I always thoroughly reject that. Fair enough. Fair enough. All right. Ben, ready to take our first call? I'm stoked.

First caller: Gielish snack brand

7:45All right. Let's bring in our first caller. Welcome to the advice line. You're on with Ben Goodwin, co-founder of Olipop. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a brief line about your business. Yeah. Thanks for having me, Ben and Guy. Great to meet you both. I'm Darren Alpert. I'm based in Raleigh, North Carolina, and I'm the founder and CEO of Gielish. We're a snack brand that's made with organic ghee and got into about 4,000 stores in two years. Wow. So welcome to the show, Darren. So, so Gielish snack brands made from ghee, the clarified butter, of course, right? So what, what kind of snack foods are you making?

8:15Yeah. So we started with three SKUs of organic popcorn, and then we launched a, our version of a pop chip slash popcorner. And then we've got a sweet snack that's going to come out in the fall. Amazing. So tell me a little bit about, about the business. Where did you start it? Yeah. So I had the concept about three years ago. We, my wife and I made samples in our kitchen. I cold emailed Sprouts. I got a meeting with their innovation team, brought them samples that my wife and I made.

8:46And then six months later, we got on shelves. So we went straight from my kitchen to Sprouts nationwide. Wow. And, and so, so good. So ghee, I can understand because it's delicious and buttery. I mean, tell me why you wanted to build a brand around ghee. Yeah. Yeah. Great question. First of all, no one else had. Right. There's avocado oils and things like that, but yes. Uh, lesser evil, I think is one ghee skew, but nobody who's ground up ghee. Right. So that logic is exactly why I did what I did. Right. Um, I thought that was a platform that we could make similar to like Kali Power or Bonza or Hippies or Truff, take an ingredient and make a platform out of it.

9:21Nice. And, and how did, did you raise money to launch the brand? Um, initially, no. I mean, I, I literally launched the whole thing with 250,000 credit card points and $50 in ingredients from my, from the store. Um, it's kind of like Ben's SodaStream deal. It's classic. Um, yeah, I got the green light from Sprouts and then I went out and raised money. So I cold emailed Gary Vaynerchuk. He's one of our lead investors. Wow. Yeah, it was incredible. And then I went out and raised money from friends and family as well, too. And tell us briefly, how is the business doing? Where, where do you expect to, to net out this year in terms of sales, gross sales?

9:56So last year was our first full year, which is 2025. We did about 1.8 million last year. Wow. All wholesale, no D2C, no Amazon. We still don't do those. Um, this year we'll finish about three and a half million. Incredible. Okay. Before we dive in further, what is your question, uh, for, for me and Ben? Yeah. So just like you let off guy, you, you had to clarify, no joke, no pun intended. What clarified butter is. Ben, I, I've got so much respect for what you've built. You have talked about the Trojan horse strategy with soda to bypass kind of the education hurdle of prebiotics. We're doing the same thing with

10:30chips and popcorn as a form factor, but people aren't that familiar with ghee slash clarified butter. I would love to hear any tactical advice to help us educate people on ghee since they've typically only seen it in a jar and it looks kind of weird in the jar. Yeah. All right. Ben Goodwin, before you can answer the question or you can ask more questions, uh, for Darren either way, but take it away. Yeah, no. Awesome. Well, first of all, Darren, congrats on the growth, right? The hardcore bootstrapping, getting sprouts locked and then raising capital after you had

11:00that, you had your kind of product together. I'm sure did at least minor wonders for your valuation going in. So, um, that's, that's a really good, the really intelligent strategy. And, uh, yeah, I mean, I also for what it's worth, I mean, 90% of my cooking at home, I use ghee. I'm a huge, a huge fan of ghee and yeah, it's kind of, I didn't look that this isn't necessarily the track you want to go down, but I, you know, I am really fascinated by kind of its Ayurvedic history, not, you know, for, for balancing, but also, uh, its utilization is like a high absorption

11:32carrier. It almost acts as like a liposomal agent for nutrients. My brother in, in nerd of ingredients. I love it, man. Yes. Right. Yeah. So, I mean, I, I guess I'm just curious, look, obviously you've got some really great traction. It sounds like it's mostly in the natural channel. Yeah. Uh, yes and no. So we've got pretty close to a green light with one of the big, uh, club stores as a regional test, but yeah, you're right though. The majority of it is all through, through natural for the current sales currently. Yeah. Yeah. Are you getting any other feedback other than we're just don't have enough awareness of the value

12:07of this particular ingredient? Well, it's kind of just in my own head. It's like you look at skinny pop and you look at smart food and obviously lesser evil, but like skinny pop and smart food do about a billion dollars combined just in those brands. And we're 30% less calories, 60% less fat than skinny pop and we're organic. So like, there's a lot of reasons to switch. Is that front and center on not versus skinny pop, but it's the kind of, the reason why I ask is because you have to think about the order of operations of consumer motivation. So you'll typically get kind of

12:45price at the top ish, but that's always like a value to dollar ratio. And so that kind of goes to the side, you know, it's about the argument that says underneath price. So then, you know, number one's always taste. Yep. Right. So if you quote blind taste tests against all your major competition, especially in your price point, are you coming out on top? If you basically aren't getting a yes, then the structural argument behind the product is going to be borderline irrelevant.

13:15Then, you know, especially at the mainstream level, specific ingredient nuances can be a little challenging to communicate because the attention spans are so short. So the structure of less fat, less calories, but tastes better than, and then, you know, simple like broad strokes, like all real ingredients and yada, yada, yada. That would, in my, I would say like, it's a little generic, but if your packaging looks good enough, that would be my starting place, especially when you're looking to go

13:47outside of natural. Yeah. Ben, I have a question for you. I mean, I, I think that there are plenty of people who will buy Olipop because they like the prebiotic side of it, but I think, and I think you're, you're implying this. Most people buy it just because it's a good tasting soda, but it doesn't have, you know, 35 grams of sugar, like a can of Coke. Right. And so the ghee side is great, but I wonder whether it even matters that you emphasize that. In other words, if it tastes great and it has, you know, far fewer calories and far, far lower fat content than the leading brands,

14:19like, that's really interesting. I don't see that on your packaging. I see fiber, which is great. Yeah. But if it, if it just tastes great and it's a great alternative, you're not thinking, oh man, I wish I had skinny pop. You're thinking, this is amazing. And it's even, you know, that to me is where you have the opportunity and not necessarily in educating people about ghee, right? Does that, but Ben, would you agree with that? I mean, so I, I think at a broad strokes level, that's right. I still would ensure that you find a great avenue to tell the deeper, richer story.

14:51So it's, that's the, you know, people do like a good bootstrap entrepreneur story. Uh, I do think there's interesting dynamics in terms of ghee's historical relevance to, you know, a culture and a, and a medical discipline. And I also think that, look, fat is a major transporter of flavor, right? I mean, you've also got the culinary arguments. I think for your broad, for your broad consumer base, I think it's really, it's, I think what Guy just articulated is bang on. It's, you know, does this taste really fantastic, especially at a premium price point, then it's

15:27bullet points right on the front of the pack around comparative nutrient compositions and how your product is superior. And then figure out the other avenues for the stories that are, that's deeper, but that's for your evangelist consumer who they're an important part of your community, but it can go a little deeper in so that it's, uh, it's less front and center and you get faster absorption rate from your emergent consumers. And maybe it's something you put on

15:57the back of the bag, right? For people who, or, or you've got QR codes or you use social media to create videos. What is ghee? Why do people use ghee? What are the benefits of ghee? You know, why does popcorn or snacks taste better made with ghee? You know, that's really where you, you, you, you can start to tell the story, but I mean, you've got a great product. You're doing, I mean, you're, you're, you know, your velocity is terrific. So yeah, you're up to an amazing start. Yeah. So appreciate it. Thank you. And it's, it's a tough, tough space, snack foods. It's a really tough space. So that's, that's exciting. Darren, thank you so much for calling in. The brand is

16:29called Gielish, G-H-E-E-L-I-S-H. Good luck. Best of luck, man. Thank you both. Yeah, of course. Thank you. It's a tough category. And we know that because we've, you know, we've done a lot of snack brands on the show. Yeah. Switching behavior and snacks is tough. But if you can get it right, and if you can get the product, you know, make a delicious product that is, you know, I hesitate to use the term better for you because everyone uses it. But if it is, or can be perceived to be better for you, that's, that's, you know, that's gold.

16:59We're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, another caller, another question and another round of advice. I'm Guy Raz. Stick around. You're listening to The Advice Line on how I built this lab.

17:12Starting a small business is the fun part. Running one, that's where it gets complicated because all of a sudden you're hiring people and you've got to pay them on time and figure out benefits. And nobody handed you a manual for any of it. It's a lot to carry, especially when you're already doing five other jobs. That's what JustWorks is for. They take the complex administrative stuff off your plate. Payroll benefits, global hiring. So you can get back to the part of the

17:43business you actually wanted to do in the first place, which I'm guessing is not paperwork. So if you're a small business owner trying to figure it all out on your own, you don't have to. Head to JustWorks.com and take some weight off your small business shoulders. That's JustWorks.com. Stop making it so hard on yourself. Head to JustWorks.com and start easing those small business worries in just a few clicks because you don't have to worry when it just works.

18:15As I mentioned earlier, every founder I talk to does it all. The big picture dreaming, the late night spreadsheets, the 6 a.m. coffee run nobody asked you to make. And every dollar you spend on your business should work just as hard as you do. That's why I want to tell you about the U.S. Bank Triple Cash Rewards Visa Business Card. Right now, you can earn an extra $750 cash back. Plus, you get 3% cash back on eligible purchases at gas and EV charging stations,

18:50office supply stores, cell phone service providers, and restaurants. The things you're already buying. And here's the kicker. 0% intro APR on purchases and balance transfers for 12 billing cycles. That's breathing room when you need it most. Visit usbank.com slash business to learn more. The creditor and issuer of this card is U.S. Bank National Association, pursuant to a license from Visa USA, Inc. Some restrictions apply.

Second caller: Sarah's Gluten Free Goods

19:29Welcome back to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz. And my guest today is Ben Goodwin, co-founder of Olipop. And Ben, are you ready for our next call? I very much am. All right. Let's bring in our next caller. Welcome to The Advice Line. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business. Hi, Guy. I'm Ben. Thank you so much for having me on today. My name is Sarah Godfrey, and I'm the owner of Sarah's Gluten-Free Goods. I specialize in gluten-free desserts that actually taste good and also cater to other food allergies, such as dairy, nut, corn, and oat allergies.

20:01Awesome. And where are you located? I'm right in Westfield, Massachusetts, close to Springfield. Got it. Okay. Got it. Well, welcome to the show. Thanks for calling in. Okay. So you're making a line of gluten-free baked goods. Do you have a bakery? Is that where you're selling them? So I actually have a cottage food permit. So I'm allowed to cook out of my home, which is a really unique opportunity because I don't have to have all that money up front to have a commercial kitchen and all that kind of stuff. So where are you selling your baked goods? So right now I do three local farmer's markets, and I also have my stuff in two or three local

20:36small grocery stores as well. Got it. Okay. And so gluten-free, a lot of gluten-free products out there, but tell me about why you went into this, why yours are different. I'm assuming you are yourself gluten-free. I am indeed, which is funny to me when I'm at farmer's markets and people are like, you're gluten-free too? And I'm like, yes, I am. Um, so there are many of us. I know that somebody the other day said that there's a minuscule amount of people that have gluten and dairy allergies in the world. And I was like, well, nothing has made me more angry and want to do more good with my company than somebody saying

21:09there's a minuscule amount of people out there. Oh my God. By the way, I could, I could just, I could talk. We won't do it. I promise. But I could talk about why the rate of gluten and general food allergies have gone up precipitously since the seventies. Spoiler, it has a lot to do with the microbiome. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. That's for another day. Yeah. Yeah. So I think the difference for my company is that it's not frozen. First of all, everything is fresh. So when I go to a farmer's market, people ask me, did you bake all of this yourself? I say, absolutely. I baked

21:41it all yesterday in a local facility that is completely safe for multiple allergies, such as nut, dairy and gluten. Got it. Okay. Before we dive in further into, oh yes. Briefly, tell me how, you know, roughly, what do you, what do you do in sales a year? I mean, or, you know, what do you expect to do? So I've only been open for about a year. Last year, my net profit was negative $2,000. And this year, I, the fact that, you know, net versus gross, you're actually, I learned it from this show. So thank you so much. I know so much.

22:15Wow. Look at you, God. So this year I'm expecting to do about $20,000 in net profit. Oh, fantastic. Okay. That's great. All right. Before we dive in further, what's your question for us? So my question is that I'm really sort of harping on the fact that I want my goods to be fresh, never frozen and available for people in my local area, if not more. And I find that as a consumer of gluten-free goods, everything I buy is mostly in the freezer section. And if I want

22:45something fresh in the grocery store, it's made by the grocery store bakers. And there's a caveat on the label that says may contain wheat, nuts, stuff like that. So I personally could never eat that because it's not safe for me. So I'm wondering how can I provide that for my community when there is that issue of perishability and how long it'll last on the shelf? All right. So how do you start to sell fresh stuff that's not shelf-stable and not necessarily frozen? Okay. Ben, good. I want to bring you in. You've already said hello to Sarah, but say hello again.

23:16Hey, Sarah. Hello again. Great to meet you. Yeah. Hi. Is this a one-woman show? It sure is. My wonderful husband is doing a farmer's market for me right now, though. So he is amazing. Okay. So the 1.5. Got it. Yeah. I guess the main question I kind of have is every pathway from here, unless you get really lucky with a network that you're connected into, is probably going to require some additional money.

23:46Yes. So have you thought about that? And then do you have a sense of your kind of risk tolerance for raising, either raising capital and, you know, the challenge obviously would take you money is you need to then show some sort of scale and you'd show the ability to return. Right. The alternative to raising equity is to raise debt, but then the debt's going to be secured against your assets, which might not be super exciting. So have you thought about if you need a capital to scale, how you'd approach it?

24:18So I definitely have thought about it. And, um, I would say that just in a personal, I am debt averse because I'm, have been debt free. Um, I did a personal debt free program. So my brain is already a little bit averse to it and just hearing me too. I hate debt free and I like refuse. So, um, and one of the amazing opportunities I had, which is sort of like stuck in my head is I had the opportunity to do a local grant program for small businesses in my town. And

24:49I ended up getting a $3,500 stipend for my business. And that allowed me to have somebody help me with my website. So I'm wondering a lot of people have talked to me about the, um, ability to maybe get grants to start my own allergen commercial kitchen. And I'm wondering if there's a way for me to go that path instead of having investors in debt. I want to jump in for a sec and, and I'm going to take a counter argument here, which is, I think, I think you're really far away from raising money. You're, you're too small. You've got to show traction and velocity. And it's not to criticize you at all. It's actually

25:23to, to sort of put a reality check on this and say, you have a lot of work and opportunities before you even go down that path. Now it's not to say you, you, you don't have to, but I, I'm thinking of like, we did Bobo's, the Bobo's Opars on the show, uh, several months ago. And, you know, she started by, by making Opars and selling them to a coffee shop in Boulder and then, and then two and then five. And I wonder, even before you move into a commercial kitchen, can you start to kind of become the bakery behind other businesses

25:55like Bobo's did? Like, could you, could you go to coffee shops that you like or, or small co-op stores, um, you know, independent cafes and say, Hey, can I drop off, you know, gluten-free blondies or, or cinnamon bread or, you know, not 20 different things like chocolate muffins, like your best sellers. Can I drop these off? Uh, you know, and maybe we can start a, a relationship that way. Yeah. So what I have right now is I have, uh, three local shops

26:27where I drop off, um, a small batch of things every Tuesday and they take a 10% commission, but I get to decide what I bring. So, so there's not a lot of leftover product and I can sort of figure that out. I have tried a couple of coffee shops and what I'm finding that there's friction in that because they don't want the liability that if somebody has a nut allergy that they might go after their business versus my business. And I'm not really sure how to get over that hurdle, because I know it's okay, but it seems like the business owners don't want to take that risk of

27:01somebody saying it did have gluten in it or something like that. Sarah, how, how, what is your kind of excess capacity look like? Uh, you know, how much available additional time or energy do you have with your currency? Cause I think Guy's point is super correct in the event that you can continue to generate more output with existing human and you know, time resources. Yeah. So something that's definitely something I've been thinking about because this year

27:33has, it's been incredible. The growth that I've had this year and the people, cause I've been on local TV, local radio, in the newspaper, in a gluten-free magazine and people are like coming and coming and coming. And I'm like, yes, I can do that. Yes, I can do this. And I'm, you know, up in, in bed late at night, like, Oh my gosh, I'm one person. Like, how can I do this? And so I'm wondering when I take that next, next step to be able to have help to be able to get it in more places. Um, and I'm not sure if my role is in the kitchen as the baker or if it's as the marketing

28:09person. Cause right now I'm all of it. Yeah. But you have, I assume you've got standardized recipes at this point for a base selection of products. Yes, absolutely. Yep. Okay. So you might be the one on the lead of creating any new products, but you could in theory, hand your existing formulas off to staff. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I, so, okay. So sounds like you've picked up a bunch of work, but it's already the place where at least it's causing you emotional. Okay. So yeah, look, obviously, you know, this, the next logical step is what is, is something that

28:46was also part of guys feedback, which is the commercial kitchen. Right. But, and, and all we did that at Olipop. I mean, I was formulating in my kitchen and we had a local commercial kitchen and we just grew more and more and more space. I have some very fond memories of that, but you know, in this case, that cross-contamination issue would be a challenge, you know? So, well, and I've reached out to a couple of places and nobody is willing and not a big, I just haven't found the right person, but nobody wants to take that risk or have a specific space. So maybe about

29:18five people have said, why don't you be the one to start the commercial kitchen for people with allergies? And I'm like, totally. Yeah. Which would have been my, I love world domination, but like, how the heck do I start my own commercial kitchen? Money. Yeah. But I think Sarah right now, and you're selling at farmer's markets in, it mainly is you, right? You are, the story is we can trust this to be totally allergen free because she is totally allergen.

29:48I mean, she, she has to eat that way. And so it's the trust factor that you bring into. One other thing I want to bring up, which is you are, you said you're reluctant to freeze products. And I wonder whether, and again, you'll, you know, you'll need to figure out how to, how to do this with a small amount of money, ideally a little bit more money. Surely you can freeze things like muffins or, you know, or, or blondies or, or, you know, things that could actually defrost pretty

30:19well. Right. I mean, I mean, isn't that possible? Yes. So I find that the blondies and the muffins do well, the, the breads, not so much because of the moisture content in them. Um, and I find that myself and the people I sell to their eyes kind of light up a little bit when they realize that they can have something for breakfast that they don't have to get out of the freezer section. Like I've heard feedback from people that they like that idea. So I'm so stuck on it and I wish I wasn't

30:50so stuck on it, but it's just, it's something that nags me all the time that like, I want to be different. I want to be different, but I wonder if that will be my downfall of, I want to be different sort of thing. Yeah, for sure. I mean, again, if, if I think about your story, um, I would, for if I would really, cause I've been at this inflection point a handful of times with things have started from zero. Right. And, and I think you can get a little more squeeze out of the situation by, all right, are there some people in the farmer's market or are there some friends that know, it can be a combination of product and cash or some way to kind of stay within my means to just

31:26eke a bit more out. I would really try to have an honest conversation with yourself between you and your husband around, all right, how much more can I squeeze out of this super, you know, super bootstrapped. Right. And at what point do I need a bit more cash in order to, you know, because, uh, for example, thinking of my, my friends over original sunshine, they did just build their own facility. Uh, and that was allowed them the quality control that kept it free from allergens. They happened to be lucky enough to have connectivity to somebody who had some space. So that was useful.

32:00But I think you're probably, you probably are going to have to cross that hurdle. Grants do a grant all day, but 3,500, you need tens of thousands, right? Like you need like, you need like a hundred thousand dollars, not like, you know, $3,500. So, so I, I, I agree with guy that, you know, raising, first of all, raising equity is really complicated and it's easy to get screwed and you have to generate some sort of return, but I would start to go look at small business loans. Okay. Maybe run by like a low, uh, credit union or something. And, and then just, you, you know, you're going to, you're going

32:34to reach a threshold point where it's like, okay, am I super committed to this? Cause you're going to trade the stress of being overworked, which you're still going to be by the way, you can just trade the stress on the financial side. So you're just going to have to evaluate, all right, what's my real commitment level? What's my real risk tolerance here? How much do I believe in this and, and do all the modeling you can, but, um, if you've got a great customer base and you're already experiencing a lot of traction, then you've got a lot of positive signals from the community that there's a demand.

33:04Yeah, absolutely. And so I wish you massive amounts of luck. Thank you so much, guys. Appreciate it. Sarah Godfrey, the brand is called Sarah's Gluten-Free Foods. Good luck. Thanks for calling in. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. It's, um, it's like such a labor of love because baking is a lot, it's a lot of work. It's like early mornings. It's a lot of work, but, um, there's a, I mean, this is different. There's a mission here. It's like making gluten-free foods delicious, which is slightly harder.

33:34And I, this is where, you know, this is why when I'm in a lot of the kind of interviews and stuff that I do, I talk a little bit more about the interpersonal side of entrepreneurship, because this is, these, these, this is like stress management and holding a vision together. And, you know, these intangibles like courage and stuff like that are going to come into a lot of strain, but look, small businesses that start from nothing are kind of the backbone of this country. So I support them. No question about it.

34:04All right. We're going to take a quick break, but we'll be right back with another caller and another round of advice. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to The Advice Line right here on How I Built This Lab.

Third caller: Bexley Natural Market co-op

34:25Welcome back to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz, and today I'm taking your calls with Ben Goodwin, co-founder of Olipop. Ben, ready for next call? Let's do it. All right. Let's bring our next caller. Welcome to The Advice Line. You're on with Ben Goodwin of Olipop. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business, please. John Groner. I'm calling about the Bexley Natural Market, Central Ohio's only cooperative grocery store. It's been around for 50 years. In 2024, I had some financial trouble. I happened to retire

34:56as a pediatric trauma surgeon in 2024. So the Bexley Natural Market seemed like it needed some resuscitation. So I joined the board with no food experience. Okay. Thanks so much for calling in, John. So if I got the story right, you are running a food co-op in Ohio. And where in Ohio is it again? It's a suburb of Columbus. Okay. So it's called Bexley. Okay. And tell me about the co-op. I mean, I'm imagining like bulk bins of natural products and organic foods. I mean, what do you guys sell there?

35:30So, well, of course I have to say first, the Olipop is right next to the cash register. Oh, good man. Great. So it's great. Good. Natural, organic. Yeah. I mean, farmers bring stuff right to our store. I mean, one time, a customer said to me, is the farmer nice to his chickens? I was stocking the eggs. Right. I said, well, you can ask him. He's standing right here. So she had a conversation with a farmer and she brought three dozen eggs, you know? So we spend hundreds of thousand dollars to local vendors and farmers every year.

36:00Yeah. Nice. And John, tell me a little bit about how the business does. I mean, it's a co-op and are you profitable? Are you, yeah, I mean, how are you guys doing overall? So if you go back to pre-pandemic, maybe 1.2 to 1.4 million in sales per year. The problem wasn't so much the pandemic, but afterwards there was definitely some mismanagement, too much on salaries, some bad choices. And this is before I got involved. So it was really going downhill.

36:33And when I joined, there was a public meeting. Should we close the store? Should we not close the store? A couple of us said, you know, I just really love the store. I mean, my kids sort of grew up there, you know? Yeah. And how's the business doing now compared to the pandemic? We're about halfway back. I mean, we are definitely in the profitability way, but not terrific. So your sales are half of what they were at their peak now. So that's significant. Okay. Before we dive in further, what's your question for us? So I visited co-ops in a lot of other cities as research, and they all have websites. So I thought,

37:08well, I will develop a website for the co-op, and that will help our sales. So I spent hours and hours and hours, you know, photographing thousands of products, putting on the website, and there's like no traction. So how can I get traction on the website? How can I just, we need about 20% more sales to kind of push us over the hump to really be not in danger of closing. Okay. A lot to ponder here. Ben Goodwin, I would love to hear your thoughts for John. Bexie Natural Market, their sales are half of what they were during COVID. And obviously, you know, they're trying to figure out how to turn this thing around.

37:41Yeah, 100%. Well, first, just as a starting place, John, I think it's really admirable what you're doing. Being a pediatric trauma surgeon is absolutely incredible. And I'm sure you've really helped a lot of people. And it also shows what kind of person you are that you jumped into this, which was struggling. And, you know, cooperatives are really, really important to the community. First of all, actually, for what it's worth, I owned a small co-op out of a house in my mid-20s back in

38:12Santa Cruz. And then we had a sister co-op in Berkeley and in Santa Monica. So I actually, you know, but they were small, they weren't actual storefronts, they were in inside homes. So I'm just like, they're, again, really important part of the community. And I think, you know, you deserve a lot of respect for what you're doing, because it's not easy work, but it's so crucial. I'm curious, what is the intended goal of the website? You said other co-ops that set up websites, you know, how are you attempting to use the website as a revenue source? And is there

38:42anything falling off? So the way the website is set up, it's a grace cart, I'm not sure you're familiar with that, but it's so when new products come into the store and they're inventoried, it automatically shows up on the website. So you can order from the website, you can pay, we don't have delivery right now. But the idea is to compete with the Kroger truck that's going by the store every day, taking groceries to families that, you know, that in my non-scientific survey, you know, people say, well, I'd love to shop at the co-op, but I just don't have time to go around, you know, if there was a way I could just order things and just pick it up,

39:15that would be great. So that was the thought behind it. We need to get Sarah out there. Yeah, you need to say for sure. John, I don't know how much, if you should put a whole lot of energy into marketing or promoting e-commerce for now. It's a very, very hard, it's an expensive game, right? And customer acquisition costs are very, very high. And maybe down the road, but I think for now, what you have is what Kroger and the big chain stores don't have, which is, you know, exclusive products, handpicked curated items in the store, real stories. You mentioned that people come and

39:49ask about the eggs and are the chickens treated well? You know, they want to know about the meat and how it's slaughtered. You know, where's the fruit coming from? I mean, all of those are stories that the big grocery stores just don't have and they can't tell. So a couple things come to mind. First of all, could you try things like, you know, like bringing the farmers in on, you know, have like a meet the farmer Saturday or something, you know, where you've got somebody there talking about the meat or talking about the peaches you got right now, or, you know, there's great milk in

40:23Ohio has got to produce a lot of milk. I know this because Jenny's ice cream uses milk from Ohio. I think there are some creative things you can do to get not just your existing customers in, but to build more word of mouth. Like, oh, we're going to Bexley's Natural Foods to, you know, to try out like every Sunday, they have samples of new products they're considering stocking and we want to go try them. Yeah, we do have a table at the local farmer's market, which is actually going on right now. Not every week, but some weeks and we do have some products there. I mean,

40:56do you think that's a useful way of spreading the word? Gotta do it in the store. Gotta do it in the store. I think you gotta do it in the store. Yeah. You know, I think there's three levers that are kind of a part of the co-op experience. So one, you know, has already been called out, which is uniqueness of ingredients and quality of ingredients, right? I've got friends who live in a small town in Pennsylvania who go to a co-op just like yours, right? And it's all this dairy from these amazing Amish farmers and really high meat quality. And they know that they're going to be able to go get things that are so much

41:31healthier, but also just taste so much better. And it's worth the special trip to go stock up. So amplification around uniqueness of ingredients, but just an unmatched quality. Two, I really think about cooperatives from the standpoint of they are anchors and hub for community. You guys have like a parking lot to the co-op that's got some space that you control that's outside? We do. Yeah. So, you know, I would start to really think about how do we really leverage that space? You could almost take Guy's suggestion of like meet the farmer and you could

42:05think about, okay, how do I, how do I accelerate that? So how do I bring once a month or whatever the right cadence is how do I create a special community moment or how do we deploy out into the community in ways that are supportive? Cause I think that not only does it help to get the word of mouth out, but then by people in interacting with the co-op or interacting with your events, uh, they can start to actually feel more integrated into the community and it actually becomes like almost like a, like a social conduit for them, which is a big deal and we need it more than ever. And I think the third

42:38thing is kind of like shopping experience. What are you doing to the inside of the store to make sure that it feels really good when you come in, you know, are the scents in the right places? Are they greeted by bright colors or fresh produce right when they walk in? Like how, what, how is it arranged so that it's an intrinsically pleasurable experience? And I think unless you are delivering, you have an Instacart model, most people, this, and I could be wrong, but I would think that most people are going to be using the digital opportunity for the convenience. So they want to deliver to the house. If they're shopping, people might tell you, Oh, it'd be convenient for me to

43:11look at your website, but nobody, it's like, I don't know. It's a lot more interesting and you get more exposure to more things when you go in and actually shop the stores. I would look at those, those three levers. Yeah. Yeah. But how do you balance, um, I mean, I think there are definitely things that can be done to improve the store. How do you balance the national brands like Alipop and you mentioned Bobo's, you know, how do you balance the local brands versus the national brands in a, in a cooperative store? I think the key is, is curation. It's finding, it's finding products that you guys really like. I mean, this is what makes Trader Joe's so successful. You know, they

43:45don't, they don't have thousands of SKUs. They have very few, uh, products on, on the shelves, but people know that it's been through, you know, Trader Joe's people have tested it and, and if they don't like, like something after a while, it goes away, but you know that what you're going to get there is probably good. I think you want to take advantage of your, of, of the curation of the, of the folks who run the co-op. Uh, and, and that's what people trust. They want to go in and say, Oh, I've never seen this beef jerky. It might be a national brand that they still haven't seen,

44:16or it might be a national brand that they have seen like Olipop. It's, you're going to have some of that too. But, um, I think the key is, is that your, the products that you've got in the store are practical. They're things that people want to use and want to cook with and also eat, obviously, but they are also products that they know you guys have tested out that you guys like. And, and I think that's, what's going to make the difference. That's really helpful. John Groner, the, uh, the cop is called the Bexley Natural Market in Bexley, Ohio. Thanks for calling in. Good luck. Thanks, gentlemen. You've been very helpful.

44:47Thank you so much. Thanks. Good luck, John. Appreciate it. Rooting for you. Yeah. I love going into, uh, small grocery stores and co-ops. I mean, it's, I, I just walk the aisles, you know, sometimes looking for ideas for the show, but also just to see what's out there, what people are, are, are making. And there's a lot of really interesting, tiny, tiny brands, you know? Um, and a lot of it's delicious. Totally. I mean, I remember this tiny little co-op I used to go shop in Santa Cruz and they definitely had, they had these olives that were just ridiculous. I couldn't get anywhere

45:18else. They had these macadamia nuts that were like, I couldn't get anywhere else. And, um, it was just this, you know, again, it felt like a cool place to go shop. There was just something about it. And I think that they really need to make sure they build up that emotional experience.

Ben Goodwin on the founder mindset

45:32Yeah. Ben, um, thank you so much for coming on the show and helping me out. I have a, before I let you go, I have one question for you, which I'm asking all our guests, which is if you could go back to when you were, you know, starting out, I mean, when you started Ollipop, you already came with quite a bit of experience from the previous situation, right? But if you could go back to your, your, you self then, and give you advice about what to do or not to do, knowing what you know now, what would have been helpful? Yeah, I, uh, I, I think that, look, I mean, I think that people who are entrepreneurially

46:06minded, you know, and actually not to plug myself here, but I, Inc gave me a monthly written column and I just put my first article out on that. And I, in it, I was really talking about the kind of psychology of, of a lot of founders and then, you know, being a craftsman or having a craftsman mentality and how that's a, a buffering agent and a grounding agent. But I, you know, a lot of us have instincts and we have to learn how to listen to them correctly and work with them

46:38correctly and calibrate them correctly. And I think it's being aware that for those of us really covered the entrepreneurial cloth, you will always have something a little special that the rest of the world may not be able to recognize clearly. Um, but that's part of what makes you great entrepreneurs. Learning how to, to have faith in that part of yourself, learn how to work with it and learn when to really trust your entrepreneur instincts is a really great use of time.

47:10That's Ben Goodwin, co-founder of Ollipop. Ben, thank you so much for coming back on the show. Guy, a real pleasure and an honor. Thanks for having me on. And by the way, if you haven't heard Ben's original episode on how I built this, you've got to go back and check it out. We'll put a link to it in the show notes. And here is a clip from that episode. One of my favorite moments from it. In fact, the first two years I was focused on cracking the code around the fermentation. So we want to try these three chemicals and we want to try this food source and we want to try

47:40these microorganisms. So let's put that in a bag. Let's do 10 different versions of it. And let's literally staple them to the wall of the shed. It looked like a scene out of, you know, the hive in Aliens. A little, little, well, yeah, until you see like 400 bioreactor bags filled with God knows what hanging from the walls. I mean, it was absolute madness. Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. And by the way, please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for free at guyroz.com

48:14or on Substack. And of course, if you are working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one minute message that tells us a little bit about your business and the questions or issues that you're currently facing, because we would love to try and help you solve them. You can send us a voice memo at hibt at id.wondery.com or call us at 1-800-433-1298. Leave a message there and make sure to tell us how to reach you. And we'll put all of this information in the podcast

48:45description as well. This episode was produced by Kerry Thompson with music composed by Ramtina Rablui. It was edited by John Isabella and our audio engineer was Sina Lafredo. Our production staff also includes Casey Herman, Carla Estevez, JC Howard, Sam Paulson, Catherine Seifer, Chris Messini, Alex Chung, Neva Grant, and Elaine Coates. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to The Advice Line right here on How I Built This Lab. If you're running a small business and payroll benefits

49:17and hiring feel like a lot, you're not alone. And JustWorks is ready to help because you don't have to worry when it just works.