Platon & Scott Dadich Part One

Welcome to Design Matters

0:00I've always been aware, okay, this is a winning streak, but it's temporary. And a losing streak is around the corner. That's a fact. That's what it is to be alive.

0:16From the TED Audio Collective, this is Design Matters with Debbie Millman. We're living in this time where we are consciously considering

0:50handing over our authentic emotional intelligence for something that's artificial.

1:00My guests today are the photographer and artist Platon and designer, editor, and filmmaker Scott Gatich. They are two longtime friends and creative collaborators whose work has intersected for more than 25 years. We'll begin with Platon and the path that led him from a childhood in Greece to one of the most distinctive and successful careers in contemporary portrait photography. Then Scott will join us to talk about the work they've made together over the years,

1:31their collaboration on Platon's deeply personal new book, Paros, and the brand new venture that they are now beginning together. Welcome to Design Matters, Platon and Scott Gatich.

Why Platon never sends email

1:42Nice to be here. Thank you for having us, Debbie. What a thrill. Platon, in a World Economic Forum interview published last year, you stated that you have never sent an email. Is that true? That's true. How do you manage your life? I have the most incredible chief of staff called Michelle Murray, who runs my whole operation. I was always inspired by Winston Churchill's concept of letter writing.

2:15And so he used to have correspondence time. And we do that in my office. We do an hour of correspondence every day where Michelle reads to me the emails that came in and I dictate my answers and it allows me to think really carefully about the language I use and how it flows. And hearing someone read it to me humanizes an email. But the real reason I do it is because I'm dyslexic

2:46and I have real trouble processing lots of visual information. So when this email thing started, I just said to myself, no, we're not doing that. We're going to find another way and I'll pull out all the stops and see if I can create a system that helps me be at my best while still be very efficient. Hence my wonderful chief of staff. I'm assuming you don't spend a lot of time then scrolling on Instagram.

3:17You know, I know the guy who invented scrolling. So does Scott. Yes. And he's a friend of ours and he's a really good guy. And he realized once he'd done it that he may have invented something that will harm society and create addiction to our devices. So he dedicated the rest of his life to warning us about the dangers of social media and AI now. It's an addiction and I do have it, especially with dyslexia.

3:48It's the worst thing you can do to see something creeping into the corner of your consciousness and you're naturally like, what is that? And that's what scrolling actually is. So I try to manage it. I'm getting better. But I have had moments where I do feel I'm addicted to it, like so many of us are. It's robbing me of those moments of clarity and pause. And now, more than ever, I need those. When I was younger, I was like, I was, it felt like I'm just flooring the gas pedal 100%

4:22trying to capture as much information as I could and document it. But as you get older, you kind of have to step back and you have to say, OK, now what does all that information say? What do all those pictures mean? And what connects them? Is there a narrative here? Is there an arc about the times we're living in? And so that's where my mind is. I mean, I'm still shooting all the time, but I'm very aware now of the broader landscape of how we're all feeling, what our current history is, where we've just come from and

4:54maybe where we might go. So that's where I really need to spend all my time. And scrolling is just wasting time and resources. So I'm trying to curb it as much as possible. One of the things that I've been saying for years is that no one ever spends a half hour scrolling, coming away from that experience feeling good. And we know the term doom scrolling, but we don't really have a term for the emotional

5:26state that one comes away from doom scrolling with, other than maybe despair. But I think that there needs to be a word that describes the emotional state one encounters when spending too much time on our devices. Without question. So I put that to you, Scott. There's this work that needs to be done. Resident genius. I have to say, I might be at fault for Platon's Instagram addiction because I started sending him Liam Gallagher memes.

5:59Because the top man is a big Oasis fan. And we really share an affection for Liam. And those are an unending source of joy. Those end up not in despair. That is a good and hearty chuckle. Yeah, those memes and GIFs, those are fun. But everything else I put into a different category. That needs a term. It needs a term. It does. That's a great prompt.

Authenticity versus photographic judgment

6:21Platon, how hard is it for powerful people to become vulnerable in front of your camera? I wouldn't call it vulnerable. What would you call it? Because I'm not trying to catch someone out. Well, I guess I don't mean vulnerable as in weak or sort of wimpy. I wouldn't call it authentic. Yeah. I was like who they really are. But in order to show who they really are, there is a little bit of vulnerability in that. Well, it depends how you regard authenticity.

6:53See, I think authenticity is a superpower, especially now. And my job is to actually help people become their authentic selves. And, of course, it's not for me to judge whether that person is a good person or a bad person. That's for history to judge. That's for you to judge, your listeners to judge. My role is to hold a mirror up to society and say, look at your reflection and have a debate about it.

7:24And I've had times, I mean, I can tell you sometimes where people have had wobbly moments because they have to let go of the chains that they carry with them and become free. But in a context that I'm operating in where I respect authenticity, I have to treat that with reverence and not take advantage of that. And that's a really important thing. I have seen photographers work who are great photographers make clear judgments about the portraits they're taking of people.

8:01You know, if there's someone they admire, you know, they pull out all the tricks to make it flattering. If it's someone they don't like, they'll pull out all the tricks to make them not attractive on purpose. And I think that's an abuse of power. How do you feel about the photo shoot that was done last year for Vanity Fair, wherein all of the White House officials were portrayed rather unflatteringly?

8:31I mean, this is only my opinion. So I have no authority over how we should read photography or anything. But my personal opinion is that those pictures just told me a lot about the photographer and told me nothing about the subjects. Whether we like the subjects or not, whether we agree with their policies or not, they are extraordinarily fascinating people. And they wield extraordinary influence over our lives right now. And I think it would be a great opportunity to connect with them and find out what's really going on in their minds.

9:09And for me, those pictures and the photographer is a great photographer. But those pictures look like the photographer was making a judgment. And the magazine, too, if I'm going to be honest, it was it was the whole thing was one big exercise in judgment and not an exercise in curiosity. And the balance should always be curiosity is up there and judgment should be deleted from the process, in my opinion. But I felt there was a lot more judgment and I didn't see much curiosity at all.

9:45One of the things that I think defines your work is this innate sense of curiosity that a viewer can bring to whoever you're shooting. You look at the subject and you want to know more. And I was thinking about that as I was doing my research in preparation for our episode today.

Childhood lessons in the Greek village

10:07And you spent the first eight years of your life living between Athens and Lefkis, a village on the island of Paros. There was one telephone at the post office, which the villagers called Parliament. And everybody seemed to know everyone else's business. And when I read that, I thought, aha, that's how he was trained. What did growing up in such a close community teach you about people? I learned to study the human condition there.

10:40There's a village square in the middle of the village. There's an old neoclassical building called the Café Neon, which was the local café. And between that and the post office, they were the two houses of Parliament.

10:58Post office was all about communication because that's where the phone line was. And mainly the old ladies worked in the post office. And the café was really the old men would sit and drink coffee. So those were your two, the women's opinions and the men's opinions. And then when they all go home, it all blends. And normally the women's opinions win. Of course. Obviously. Yes. But the village square, I used to draw first. My dad was an architect and he was an incredible artist.

11:32I've got a lot of his drawings upstairs, actually, because we're in my studio. And he did these beautiful pen and ink drawings. And I grew up watching him do that. And I grew up watching him. Most of his drawings when I was young were really graphic. They were with pen and ink. So there is no grey. You make a commitment. And where you put your line is that's the mark you intended to make. And then the paper is just pure white.

12:05So that made a huge impression on the visual language that I was brought up with. Simplicity. Combine that with, you know, there were Corbusier posters around the house.

12:21Mies van der Rohe books everywhere. Frank Lloyd Wright manuscripts. I mean, I grew up with this idea of design. My dad, when he was drawing, he would also draw villages and their doorways and the houses. So I started to copy him. Now, for me, I have photographed buildings, but there's something magical about people. I was just drawn to them much more than maybe my dad was. My dad did buildings first and then the people were in front of the building as a little bit of humanity.

12:56To help with human scale. And he drew people really well because they were really simplified and almost like little characters. So I was just drawn to the people more than anything. So then I started to try and copy him. So I would, he gave me a sketchbook and I would draw in the village. And I would draw the old ladies as they're walking by. And I would set up in the village square. Now, in the square, if you're there for five hours and you're just drawing an old man across the square,

13:26for two of those hours, and then maybe there's no one to draw for an hour, you are calming right down. And your powers of observation go up. And if someone walks across the square, that's a big event. I mean, in New York, there's so much stimulation. You almost don't see anything. But if you're that calm and the fact that there's someone walking across the square holding a bag of shopping, what's in the bag?

13:57Where are they going? Who is it? Are they in a hurry or are they taking their time? Why are they limping?

14:06You know, what's going on there? So I studied that. And when they started sitting for me, I started really understanding how people move. If they are in a good mood, then how does their body language change? What happens to the way they hold their head? What's the difference between an old person and a young person? Just with how the muscles work in their body, let alone their psychology. How do you relate to someone who's impatient? How do you relate to someone who wants to play?

14:38And by the time I picked up a camera, I was very skilled at understanding how human condition works. And it gave me a jump start, to be honest. And then when I found myself photographing middle-aged white men in suits in politics, you know, they all dress the same. They all look the same. They all behave the same. But I would think back to the lessons the villagers taught me. And hold on a minute.

15:09They're not all the same. Look harder. There's something going on in there. And when you really look hard, it's a whole universe of interesting stuff. The fact that they're all wearing the same mask becomes very interesting.

15:24What does that tell you about them? It tells me that our society is built on conforming and we are all looking desperately for approval and validation. And we go to extreme lengths and we give up a lot and sacrifice a lot for validation of strangers. Even at that level of power? Maybe most at that level. Platon, I read that you said that when you were young, you fantasized about being a pop star because you wanted to be part of something happening in culture.

Musical fantasies and design roots

16:06Yeah.

Musical fantasies and design roots

16:07So what did that fantasy look like to you then? My dad had this cassette player and he had a couple of jazz tracks on it and he had there was Ella Fitzgerald singing on it and then there was a couple of Beatles songs on it. And he used to listen to it while he worked. And sometimes I would borrow it in quotes and play it as I was falling asleep at night. And of course, you know, when you're either waking up or falling asleep, Paul McCartney always said that's a magical time for creativity because you're not really trying too hard to force thoughts.

16:47They just drift through. And so at those moments, I would picture myself, OK, it sounds like I imagine there's a club somewhere, a jazz club and, you know, you're part of the band. How cool would that be? And you can hear the chinks of the glasses while people are serving drinks. And I would picture a scene of, you know, trying to entertain people and inspire people. Eventually, I became a musician and I did used to sing in a jazz band.

17:20And for a while, when I started to discover how hard photography really is, I did consider, well, maybe I should, maybe I'll be better off being a saloon singer than this racket. But I stuck with it. And eventually, strangely enough, there are a lot of similarities taking pictures of people and being a musician. Being a musician is you're aware of sensory emotion. You're aware of harmony and dissonance.

17:50And I see it play out in front of my lens so many times. Some of my subjects are harmonious and at ease and at peace. And sometimes there's a lot of conflict and dissonance and trouble. And I have to be equally curious and respectful of both poles, you know, and try to tune into that frequency and capture it. For a time, you thought that you might follow your father into architecture. Yeah. But mathematics made you question that path.

18:23Why? Again, I think it's dyslexia, to be honest. All my heroes are architects, not really photographers. So I do think of myself, my backbone is design, which is probably why I connected so well with Scott. Well, you went to St. Martin's and studied graphic design. I did. I studied design. And all my friends were designers. And even my friends in the fashion world were designers because St. Martin's was the center of fashion.

18:58And I mean, Alexander McQueen was at the same college as me. We knew each other when we were students. Same with Philip Tracy when I went on to the Royal College. And they would lend me their unfinished clothes and I would photograph them as artifacts and give them the pictures back. So those design dialogues started at a very young age. I think I speak the language of design and I understand the problems that come with design. And I think I feel very blessed to think like that because I think a lot of photographers who weren't brought up as designers never really understood the role of a great designer that you're collaborating with.

19:39When I'm working with Scott and all the projects we've worked on, you know, I know exactly what Scott means when he's talking about, well, we've got to allow space for the logo. We've got, what about the gatefold? A lot of my pictures are actually designed knowing that they were going into a magazine. And I knew that I can't put the face in the middle of a landscape picture because that's where the gatefold goes. So you'll probably see very rare instances in my whole archive where the face is in the middle of a landscape 35mm picture.

20:14They're always put to one side because I know that those, I grew up as a designer and gently organizing shapes on a page, whether it's typography or whether it's imagery, it doesn't really matter. Well, it sounds like you were learning, as you were learning graphic design, how an image creates meaning. Yeah, I mean, as I say, my heroes are designers. So you start talking about an image creates meaning, then you're moving beautifully into the world of George Lois, Paul Rand, Charles Eames, Alan Fletcher, Scott Dadditch.

20:52I was very privileged that I got, my dad worked with Alan Fletcher and he commissioned my dad to do a whole set of illustrations of Kazan Jakis's books. For those who don't know Kazan Jakis, he wrote Zorba the Greek and The Last Temptation of Christ, which is a Scorsese, great movie. So I got to meet Alan at a very young age, before I was even taking pictures. And when I did my first book, Platon's Republic, we did that with Fyden and Alan was then creative director of Fyden.

21:29So it was really nice to, as Alan was at the end of his career, I got to actually work with him myself. And with George, Scott introduced me to George, which was very generous of Scott to share that magical relationship with me. And George became, after my father passed away, George became a father figure for me personally. And he taught me so much about the ethics of design. You know, by that point, I was fully formed as a visual creator, but it's really important to have ethics and a code that you stick to.

22:13Because there are powerful forces pulling us away from those ethics and codes all the time, asking for compromise. And George was so uncompromising.

Meeting George Lois and the New Yorker

22:24How did you first meet? George was giving a lecture, right? George was giving a lecture and I just signed the contract at the New Yorker.

22:37And you became a staff photographer. I became the staff photographer. They actually gave me Richard Avedon's contract, which was a great honor at the time. And I think I just published my first portrait. Can't remember what it was. It was a jazz musician. And Wynton, Wynton Marsalis. Maybe it was Wynton Marsalis. Everyone was a bit nervous at the New Yorker because, you know, they had Richard Avedon and now they've got this punk kid. What's going to happen here? And as I just said, I don't even do email.

23:07I can't really read very well books. So imagine me in the New Yorker offices. But my mandate there was to bring humanity to the pages of the New Yorker visually. It reads with humanity, but to bring sort of human character to the people they're writing about. So I'd done this one picture and George wrote in to David Remnick and he said, now we're cooking with gas or something.

23:39He said something like really flattering to Remnick. So David Remnick called me up and he said, I'm so excited. The great George Lois just wrote in and he just said congratulations for hiring Platon. He said, I feel validated. So we had a laugh about it, but I was thrilled that I hadn't met George yet. And then Scott invited me to this lecture and afterwards Scott introduced me and it was just instant.

24:12Well, that sort of reminds me of the feeling that you had when you first picked up a camera. Yeah, I'm a very determined person that makes quick, straight decisions. I don't really labor too much. But you weren't preparing to become a photographer. You were actually doing a design assignment. You picked up the camera and your life changed. Yeah, didn't care about anything. They tried to throw me off the course because suddenly all my work was image based. There was no typography in it.

24:43They got concerned and I'm militant. I mean, once I lock into something, that's it. We're not changing. So I remember I was called into the offices of the bosses at St. Martin's and they said, we have a big problem here. You're clearly working hard, but you're not doing what we're supposed to be doing here. So I said, well, what are we supposed to be doing? And they said, graphics. And I said, well, graphics is a Greek word. Graphos is made from two separate words.

25:17Graphos is to draw. And fos means light. It actually means drawing with light. I said, that's exactly what I'm doing here. So you're going to throw me off a course that's called painting with light. Well, I said, well, good luck with that one. The press is going to eat that one up. So they all got a bit confused and had to rethink. So then when it came to my end of year exam, I knew that the tutors, who I'm sure were really nice people.

25:52I mean, I was a brat, I have to admit as well. But, you know. You say that in past tense. What do you mean? That you're no longer a brat? Well, I think I'm a mature brat now. I mean, the brattishness never really leaves us. Nor should it. Yeah, you need a bit of brat to fight the system. But I remember thinking, OK, I don't trust you guys to judge me. I think you're prejudiced. So I went to the boss and I said, well, I want my own external assessor. They raised their eyes again.

26:23Oh, God, here we go. Who do you want to get? So there was this legendary guy called Simon Esterson, who was a brilliant designer, worked on newspapers, handled type and image, really respected photography. So I said, I want Simon to be my external assessor. So Simon comes in, gives me a distinction, understood what I was trying to do. And the rest is history. So it was a designer that gave me the validation.

26:56And when I went to the Royal College of Art, it was John Hind, creative director of Vogue, who also, who was a designer, gave me support that I needed. So it's always been a marriage between my work and a deep respect for designers, even though there's no type in actually what I do. And I learned, well, I'll focus on the image, but let's work together. Let's collaborate. And I think that's why me and Scott, it's a marriage.

27:28You know, it works because I can't do what he does and he can't do what I do. And we need each other to tell a story. So, yeah, I have deep respect for a good designer.

John F Kennedy Jr and George Magazine

27:42If you look at the trajectory of your career, there have been quite a lot of different collaborations that have really amplified different stages of your life. Before George Lois, there was George the Magazine. So you, in 1995, as John F. Kennedy Jr. was preparing to launch George Magazine, his team called you in London and invited you to come to New York. You thought it was a prank. And I believe you hung up on them.

28:13Well, I told them to fuck off first. And then I hung up. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to say that. Of course you're allowed to say whatever you want. But yeah, I thought it was a joke. I thought someone's winding me up. I didn't think it was funny. I was poor. It's always raining in London. I didn't know anyone really famous. And someone's offering me to fly me to New York and work on a secret project with the Kennedy family. So that just doesn't happen. I'd never even been to New York. Certainly never flown anywhere first class. Thank God they called back. And I realized, oh my goodness, okay, I think this is real.

28:49Bloody hell. And I think Kennedy wanted you to look inside power. That was the brief. Well, we met from opposite ends of the spectrum and we met perfectly in the middle. The story goes like this as far as I know it. When I started shooting, as I say, I was poor. We were in a recession. We would look at what was happening in America and we would feel, well, we can't relate to this.

29:19I mean, I would look at the great Annie Leibovitz, who I do admire greatly. She's actually sat for me and she was a very nice lady. I have huge respect for what she's achieved, especially as a woman in this world. But her work at the time, I couldn't relate to it because it was so glamorous. Everything was perfect and everyone was so famous and successful. So I was part of a new movement in London where we reacted against, not against America,

29:50but against that culture of success because honestly, we didn't feel we could compete with it. And yet we were burning with this creativity. So we actually decided consciously to do something that was overtly British. In terms of photography, it was to photograph people as you really see them, as human beings, really connect with them. Fashion designers like Alexander McQueen went on to create new types of designs that went deep into his soul about life and death.

30:24Artists like Jenny Savile, Damien Hirst, Tracy Emin, they all went into their direction. And these Tracy Emin's stories about really painful experiences of being a young woman at that time, we were after truth. So that started and it started overflowing. We all started out as nothing. And then gradually, we all gradually move up. And I mean, Scott mentioned Oasis.

30:56Imagine 94 happens and we're all starting to break through. And you've got Oasis from, you know, a very working class neighbourhood singing songs about hope, trying to break through, hoping not that you're going to die young like other rock stars have written, but you're going to live forever. We see things they'll never see. The lyrics of Noel's songs are just so optimistic and hopeful, but honest about a hard life.

31:27So we all had the same mindset, but we were all coming from completely different creative sides. And this thing blew up into what became known as a British movement of the 90s. Now, OK, so I started shooting for Vogue, but mainly ID, The Face, Arena. That's where I was based, where I was really expressing myself with humanity. And by the time John in New York started to think about doing a magazine, fortunately for me, he didn't know anything about photography.

32:04So he sat with his team and they were having editorial meetings for weeks on end about how they're going to structure the company. And while he's doing it, he told his team, bring every magazine around the world in the last three years so I can just get a sense of what's happening out there visually. So while they're talking, he's flipping through a magazine and no one was taking any notice of him. And he would tear out a page every 15 minutes, put it on a stack and then flip, throw the thing in the bin and then start another magazine, tear out a page, put it on the stack.

32:38Eventually, after a few days, he had a stack of pictures. Then he hands it to Matt Berman, who was his art director to be great guy. And he said, I don't know who these people are, but this is what I want. Turns out most of them were my pictures at the time. That's how I was told the story goes. And so that's why I get this call, this random call. So I went and I walked in the room and obviously I'm introduced to Matt Berman, the designer.

33:13For me, the designer is the one I'm going to connect with. So I start chatting to Matt Berman and this guy at the back of the room says, you know, maybe we should get Frank Sinatra. He'd be good for a cover. And I turn around and say, excuse me, mate, do you mind being quiet? I'm talking to the designer. And everyone went, oh, my God, this guy, we've made a huge mistake. First, he tells us to fuck off and hangs up. And now he's saying to John Kennedy Jr., shut up. I'm talking to the designer. I didn't know who John was.

33:43So John rolled his eyes and eventually they told me this is actually John Kennedy Jr., everyone's boss. And I went, oh, my God, I'm so sorry. Please forgive me. I was so reckless. But I think John liked that. I do, too. So he I read that he would give you a sealed envelope when you were doing photographs containing a handwritten note from him that you would give to the subject that you were photographing. And the note asked whoever you were photographing to give you this unfamiliar young photographer.

34:20Inexperienced and unqualified photographer. And sincerity. Yeah. I love that. He asked for you to give for them to give you your their time and their sincerity. Yeah. I was I was blessed. I didn't know was in the note until a year in. And I handed one of these notes to John Kenneth Galbraith, who worked for the president back in the 60s and was incredible, incredible figure in American culture.

34:55Young listeners probably won't know who he is, but he was a tour de force. He was very old by this point. And I handed him the envelope as usual. And, you know, he opened it up, read it. And he went, huh. OK. Whatever you need. And he put the envelope down on his desk and he said, I'll be back in a minute. And of course, I saw the envelope on his desk. And I thought it is open. I'm going to read this bloody thing. What is in this letter? And I read it and it's what you said.

35:25Yeah. That's the only reason I know what was and I'm presuming it was a similar kind of message of goodwill and ask. He was asking for trust. And I've learned over the years that actually leveraging your trust for new talent is really an important thing to do. And I am very grateful that some incredible people in history have leveraged their trust. And when I'm aware that's happening, I carry that very, very, I mean, that's very important for me.

35:59When Scott used to ask me to do a cover of his magazine, I mean, there's a lot of trust leverage there. There's a lot riding on that cover. It's not just me looking cool. It's actually I've got to make sure this works for a lot of people. So, yeah, you've got to carry that really well. But then at the same time, you've got to allow a spark of natural human quality to spill over onto the page. So it resonates with people.

36:30And if you just think about the obligation, it can choke your creativity.

36:36JFK Jr. helped usher you into America and into a new kind of a career.

Surviving a brutal street attack

36:43What did you have to learn to do for yourself after he passed away? Well, I thought my time is up. That's it. You know, like Leonard Cohen came out of a monastery when I photographed him. He'd been in for a year or two. I don't know. And he was like so Zen at that point. And he was everything was a whisper. The most beautiful day I ever had actually with him. And I said, Leonard, what's it all about? Can you slip me the answer? And he said, life is a set of winning streaks and losing streaks.

37:19And that's it. So I was very I've always been aware, OK, this is a winning streak, but it's temporary. And a losing streak is around the corner. That's a fact. That's what it is to be alive. So you can't hope that this winning streak will last forever and you can't lie to everyone that it is lasting forever. You've got to face it and deal with it. And the quicker you come to terms with it and deal with it, it allows you to enjoy the winning streaks more.

37:56Because, you know, how magical and valuable they really are. But it also allows you to navigate through the losing streaks because hopefully they're temporary. And you will bounce back. Looking at your career, though, it doesn't seem like you've had a lot of losing streaks. I mean, you were certainly impacted by JFK Jr.'s passing. But you bounced back. You met George Lois shortly thereafter. Talk about how you've navigated through some of your what you might signify as losing streaks.

38:30Well, there are losing streaks and the losing streaks help you. I mean, one of the biggest losing streaks was when I got attacked in the in the 90s. I was having a winning streak at the time. And I remember thinking, I'm a bit of a hotshot. It's coming true. I started working for George. I was traveling backwards and forwards from New York. I was shooting big ad campaigns. All my friends were starting to make it.

39:02We were winning. That was a winning streak. But, of course, when you're young, you don't really understand that the winning streak is temporary. Age teaches you that. So I remember I had a girlfriend at the time, lovely young lady, and I decided, let's go on holiday somewhere lavish. So we went to some barts. Now, this was a place where rich people went. And I just made a good chunk of money from an ad campaign. And I shouldn't have blown it on a holiday. But I wanted to know what it is to be rich.

39:35What do they look like? What do they where do they go on holiday? So I heard everyone goes to some barts. So I blew all my money on this bloody holiday. And I sat on the beach and I was so bored. I was so bored. There was just nothing happening. And so I was pacing up and down. And my girlfriend got irritated. So she handed me this self-help book she was reading. She said, for God's sake, just read this, will you? What was it? What book was it? I can't even remember what it was called. But it was all about be kind to people. Reach out. Smile.

40:06So I read this thing and I thought, ah, it's interesting. But, you know. So we were back in London the next week. And I remember going shopping to get a diary. So I went into a newsagents in a nice area in North London where I lived. And there was a young lady behind the till. And I was paying for the diary. And I remember this book that I'd read. And it said, smile. So I smiled at her. And I said, you know what? You've got a lovely smile when she smiled back.

40:38I said, you know, I was thinking of the book. Be nice. I said, what a nice person you are. She gave me my change, put it in my pocket. And I left the place with my girlfriend. We walked out. And what I didn't know was that this girl's brother had serious psychological problems. And he was standing next to her. And he saw me smile and say nice things to her. And he got offended by it. He followed me out of the shop and attacked me on the street.

41:08It was like lunchtime. And it was bad. It was brutal. He beat the living daylights out of me. I was like a punch bag because I'm not a fighter. I didn't know how to defend myself. And I remember my girlfriend was screaming. There was blood everywhere. Part of my left eye socket was kicked into my right eye socket. Nose busted. Lost all my front teeth. Ribs busted. Skull fractured. And I was lying on the ground. They called the ambulance.

41:39So, you know what? I thought about that's a losing streak. The winning streak was abruptly terminated. And I'm now in emergency room in hospital waiting for surgery. Not knowing if I'm going to survive because I had a fractured skull. And I remember sitting next to an old lady. I was put in a temporary ward and she was dying of cancer. And she said to me, you know what? You're in a mess, young man.

42:10And I was saying, why me? Why me? You know, what the bloody hell have I ever done? You know, I was angry at the termination of the winning streak. And she said, why not you? What's so special about you? She said, look at us all. We're all in a mess here. You're just one of us now. And she said, you're at the fork. Which road are you going to take? The why you road or the why not you road? What's so special about you? And then I, it was like I, something twigged.

42:40Not totally at the time, but as time went on and I recovered, I started to think, well, why not me? What's so special about me? And once you go down that path, it's a much better path. Because you're aware of life is up and down. And people have success and they fall. The most powerful people I have photographed, so many of them tumble. Some of them are in jail. Some of them have been executed. Gaddafi, when I photographed him, ultimate power.

43:12Ultimate power. And then it was like a year and a half later, he's pulled out of a concrete tube on the run, covered in blood, shot with his own gun after being tortured. I mean, you know, I've seen it go up and down. It's gone up and down for me. I think we have to be grateful for the good times. And we have to wade through and just keep marching when we're going through hard times.

Meeting Esther in the DRC

43:43How do you pick yourself up when you're going through a hard time? That's a really good question because you can get very lonely. There's a feeling of isolation that so many of my sitters have gone through as well. And I recognize it. There was a girl I photographed in the DRC. We were there working with my Human Rights Foundation. I was invited there by the doctor who runs a hospital who heals women and children who are survivors of sexual violence.

44:14So I was there trying to tell what is actually an impossible story to tell, especially for a white middle-aged man. And this girl walks in the room. Her name is Esther. And she's got a beautiful baby boy on her lap. And I said, tell me what happened to you? So she says, well, I'm 16 now, but when I was 14 and a half, I was fetching water for my mum and dad in a rural area outside our village. And this group of gangsters kidnapped me, took me to their base camp in the forest.

44:50She said, they tied me to a tree and they all raped me for days on end. She said, eventually the ropes came undone and I escaped. And she said she made it to a village. A man rescued her off the streets, brought her to his home, and then he then raped her. So eventually he discarded her, threw her out. And she walked for days to get to the hospital because she heard that there was this amazing doctor healing women.

45:23Rumors get out. She collapsed at the gates. They brought her in. And he operated on her successfully and healed her wounds, only to find she's pregnant. All of a sudden, I look down at this little boy on her lap, whose name is Jose. And I realize, my God, he's born of rape. She's discarded from her family because they were ashamed of her. So she's now an orphan and she has a baby and she's living in a hospital temporarily.

45:59Very uncertain future. My wife had just had a baby girl. So I was thinking of all the women I care about in my life, right? So all of a sudden, I started to cry. Now, you can't take a picture when you're crying. So I tried to wipe my eyes so I could look down into the Hasselblad because you look down into my camera. And as I wipe my eyes, I look down and I see Esther's face and she's looking at me with this stoic dignity that is just, wow, it's extraordinary.

46:29Kindness, radiating compassion. And I said to her, why is it I'm crying and you're not crying? How is that, you know? And she said, the reason I'm not crying in your picture is because I don't want to make you feel sad. And she said, my mummy and daddy told me when I was little that I'm on this earth to bring joy to the world and I will keep my promise no matter what. Now, Esther is a leader of all the well leaders I've ever worked with.

47:03No one has taught me that lesson in leadership, that you take considerable bad luck and trauma and adversity and you transform it into kindness and compassion for others.

47:17So whenever I'm feeling a bit lost, all I have to do is think, well, I'm not really having a bad day, am I?

47:28Esther had a bad day and she was dealing with it as best she could. So I'm very grateful to have had that lesson in leadership from Esther. And actually, that picture, because of that story, I'm very proud to say helped the doctor who operated on her win the Nobel Peace Prize. So Esther showed the world what it means to be strong and walk through hard times. You've described finding a person's frequency when you work.

48:04How were you able to do that with so much grief that you also photograph? You've photographed so many women that have had terrible experiences of sexual violence. You've done so much work in the human rights area. How do you hold yourself together when you're doing this and also able to tap into their frequency? Well, tapping into their frequency is, you know, that's my job.

48:37That's what I do. You know, it gets very volatile and you're dealing with the human condition at extreme levels. So, as I said, sometimes it's very joyous and funny and fun and then it's inspiring. And other times it's very painful. You know, when you break through into someone's spirit, you know, it's like you don't know where this is going to go. So you've got to really concentrate hard and not abuse that position.

49:12But how were you able to hold your center? I read people well. I mean, that's what I do. I'm so bad at so many things. But when it comes to understanding people, I think I really, it's something mystical that I have. I mean, my mom told me the other day, and I didn't know this, my great-grandmother was a mystic on my English side from Victorian times. And she used to have people into her house and she would, you know, talk to spirits and stuff like that.

49:45And my grandfather on my Greek side, this I remember, he used to read Greek coffee cups and he taught me how to do it when I was a kid. It's passed on from grandfather to grandson in my family. So I'm not saying I'm a mystic and I don't believe in any of that stuff, but I do understand people and I can tune into your frequency. And now I might not know why you're feeling the way you are because I don't know the information of your life, but I feel what you feel.

50:19So I kind of know what you know on an emotional level. And of course, when I've done a human rights mission, okay, I'll explain it like this. Athletes, athletes have told me at the highest level that they, we all have from zero to a hundred of our capacity to deal with situations in life, physical, emotional. But athletes know that there's actually a hidden extra reserve.

50:51It's an extra 15%, you might say that's hidden. A car has it with your gas tank. It says you're at zero, but actually it allows you a little bit extra for emergencies to get you home. So we have that. And we often don't know it's there until we're in emergency mode, survival mode. Now, if you're running for your life and you're exhausted, you will tap into that 15% extra reserve.

51:21If you're an artist and you're pushing yourself to the level of pure flow, you are operating in that 15%. And if you are an athlete, you are also operating in that 15%. But if you're operating in that 15%, that's really dangerous place to operate. Because you are dangerously close to the edge. Running out. Running out. Now, so many people in history who operate in that space have gone over the edge.

51:57Because that's where they thought they were comfortable. But it's really dangerous. That's where I operate. And I have had times where you are 1% away from that edge. And I would come back from a mission and I find myself watching TV with my family. I start crying for no reason that they can see. But it's got to come out, you know. It's got to come out. But when I'm doing the job, I'm thinking, well, hold on a minute. I have a job to do.

52:28I'm asked to tell this story by my colleagues in the human rights movement. And they trust me with their stories. In fact, that's all they've got to share is their security and their stories. They've got nothing else to share. So that's sharing everything with me. And my promise back is that I will amplify their voices and deliver their stories to the world and get those stories out into the social discourse. So I've just got to man up and deal with it.

52:59And I can have my wobbly moments when the job is done. But if I allow myself to have a wobbly moment before I've delivered my promise, then I let people down. And, you know, whatever they went through, they're a lot worse situation than I am. So I've learned to sort of pace myself. But I have come dangerously close to the edge, I have to admit. But I'm lucky that I just always somehow pull through.

The tension before a portrait session

53:28You've said that the darkest, loneliest place for you is about a half an hour before a shoot. And that the pressure has actually become more intense as you've gotten older. What happens in that half hour? How do you do all this homework? How do you know all this stuff? You're serious, aren't you? Secret powers. You're serious. My mystical secrets. I like that. I like it. Yeah, it's so true. It's awful. I mean, Scott's seen it. Actually, when we filmed the abstract episode when Colin Powell was coming, it was even magnified because Scott was here with a film crew.

54:03Right. And it's everything is everybody's observant. So tell us a little bit about that. It was, I mean, Scott sees it. It's actually probably caught on film, me pacing up and down. Oh, for sure. Wild animal. We built that into the scene. We knew, I've known that about you since our very first shoot. And I've seen that and I felt that. And we've talked about that moment of contemplation and pressure. That was amplified because, yeah, we had a film crew and we were well into, you know, what, almost a year of filming your documentary. That was a very high stakes moment.

54:36And we had been talking about getting General Powell for a very long time. So that was a very intense moment. He was finally coming. He was on his way. Walking through this door and set, right? And he seemed actually really, really charming. He seemed really at ease. He was amazing. It's a wonderful episode of Abstract. He was warm and funny. Yeah. He was lovely. A very interesting person. He shook the hand of every crew member. Yeah. He was incredibly generous. But, you know, it is, I've talked about this before. Compression, expansion. Frank Lloyd Wright does it in his buildings. Because I do it with emotion.

55:08I have to compress everything so that when the person sits in front of my camera, I meet them, then I can expand. So high level of concentration so that I see and feel everything I can. And I'm trying to strip away all the distractions that would normally be in a situation. And in this case, I mean, Scott, I'm not saying Scott's a distraction. But the responsibility of giving Scott what he needed to tell the story was another level of responsibility.

55:42And I didn't want to let my friend down. I wanted this shoot to be something that would be meaningful to people. But, of course, I'm only half of it. And the other half is unknown, which is Colin Powell. He could have walked in, just had an argument with his wife or had a bad day. And the shoot would have been probably just as entertaining, but in a very different way. And I've had those ones, too. I want to talk to you about a few of your sitters, as you put them. But I want to ask you another question about you.

56:13You are extraordinarily conscious of your own body language when you're shooting. And you've described tilting your head, changing your posture, bowing slightly, or softening your voice to change the space around who you photograph. How did you learn to use your own body as part of making a portrait? Oh, the old ladies taught me that in the village. And if you're reading someone's coffee cup, long before I was even drawing and taking pictures, you are trying to understand someone's story of life.

56:49And they might be a stranger, but you feel that they are engaged and the stakes are high for them because you're talking about their journey. And that's a really privileged position to be in. If I've got a coffee cup and I'm looking for a sign that I'm trying to recognize, my subject that I'm reading from, they will lean forward because they, what's he about to say? What does he see? What's in there? And you just start to see their body language express their interest, their fascination with, what am I going to see?

57:25It's so beautiful, the human condition. It's so rich. And there's so many sensory responses we have with each other.

Protecting authentic human connection

57:36And it's strange because we're living in this time of technology where we are consciously considering giving up, handing over our authentic emotional intelligence for something that's artificial. And like with even email, let's even worse with texting, you are taking your capacity to understand someone and you are stripping it down to maybe one or two percent of information.

58:07And that's how you are reading them. You can't see when you're making a comment on Instagram. You can't see if you're hurting the person you're commenting on. You don't know what response they're giving you back. But when you're in front of someone, you feel and know everything. So much so that many young people today are actually intimidated to sit in front of someone because we are not exercising that muscle of communication and mutual interest and respect.

58:39And everyone is making judgments about each other. They're throwing sort of knives at each other philosophically. And they're not thinking about, well, hold on, this person has a family. This person has a pet that they love. This person is very vulnerable. How can you say you hate them because of their political beliefs? It's just as an example. So I care deeply about where we're going. And I really want people to, I think we're all at a tipping point.

59:09I think we've all allowed ourselves to become too distracted, too isolated and too separated from ourselves. And I really think it's time for us to bring back the human condition. I think the most valuable currency in the next five years is not going to be power or money, but it's going to be authentic human experiences between people. And I feel very happy and grateful that my work is all about that.

59:40So instead of me becoming a dinosaur and brushed aside, because I love the time I still shoot film, as an example, and I don't do email, I actually think I'm on the right track here. I'm actually celebrating the human condition and trying to tell everyone how beautiful and how important it really is. You have photographed more world leaders and U.S. presidents than anyone in history. And the fact that you're saying this is giving me a little bit of hope that maybe there is an optimistic future ahead.

1:00:11Oh, I'm incredibly optimistic. I should be by now very, very cynical. The things I've seen, the patterns I recognize in the system of how power really works, I should be really cynical. Why aren't you? Because I've photographed people at their most vulnerable and seen how strong they can be and how kind they can be when they've lost everything. Most of our concerns in a privileged world are losing the power that we have.

1:00:46But what happens when you've actually lost it? Then that something different happens. Then you really start to value a different set of criteria. You start to value your friend who will listen to your story. You start to value just someone touching your hand. You know, these are big things. And that's what you value when you've lost everything. So our biggest concern generally with the, you know, in our world is that we just lose what we have.

1:01:17Well, there's a whole other spectrum. And I've been lucky and privileged to photograph people who have lost everything. And they really are kind and gracious and hospitable. And they will share what little they have with a stranger because they believe in friendship. That's a beautiful thing. I feel very privileged to have seen that again and again. So it leaves me thinking, well, hold on. I'm not so scared of losing everything.

Conclusion and credits

1:01:47That's part one of two of Debbie's conversation with Platon and with Scott Dadich, who will have more of a presence in part two. This is the first time we've broken up an interview into two episodes, and we hope you enjoy listening to both. Design Matters is produced for the TED Audio Collective by Curtis Fox Productions. The interviews are usually recorded at the Masters in Branding program at the School of Visual Arts in New York City, the first and longest running branding program in the world.

1:02:18The editor-in-chief of Design Matters Media is Emily Weiland. Thank you.