Debra McGuire

Early instincts and transformation

0:00It's a two-dimensional surface. You know, what we're looking at is a television set, and it's like a painting. So what makes a painting interesting? Well, it's color, form, shape, light. And I thought, okay, I am going to give every character their own color field, their own palette.

0:24From the TED Audio Collective, this is Design Matters with Debbie Millman.

0:30On Design Matters, Debbie talks with some of the most creative people in the world about what they do, how they got to be who they are, and what they're thinking about and working on. On this episode, a conversation with Debra McGuire about her surprising career, and about when art collides with business. I knew I was running a business when I couldn't collect money, and I was like, oh. Debra McGuire has spent her life moving between worlds—painting, jewelry, fashion, business, film, and television—following an instinct for character, color, material, and story, wherever it has taken her.

1:15Her work as a costume designer includes all ten seasons of Friends, Freaks and Geeks, New Girl, and The Morning Show, as well as films including Anchorman and one of my all-time favorites, Idiocracy. Along the way, she has built companies, created some of the most recognizable costumes in popular culture, and developed enduring creative relationships across decades of work. Her new book, Dressing the Story, looks back at that remarkable journey through a series of conversations about creativity, collaboration, reinvention, and the art of helping a character become visible.

1:56Debra McGuire, welcome to Design Matters. Thank you. So happy to be here. Debra, is it true that when you were four years old, your mother found you propped up on a bathroom sink trying to give yourself a perm? It's true. So tell us, tell us the story, please. Well, I think I've always been interested in transformation.

2:20I don't know. I don't know how I even knew that it was in the bathroom and what it did. I don't remember. I just remember being in the sink and trying to put these curlers, and the smell was so intense that it kind of freaked me out. And my mom walked in and screamed, and she was like, afterwards, she was like, you know, she did a pretty good job. So I think she finished the job for me. But I always have been precocious and trying to do things that have to do with physicality and beauty and things like that.

Cleveland roots and intellectual curiosity

3:02Your new book, Dressing the Story, exists partly because Jim Stark, a dear friend you met when you were 13, began asking you questions. And at the time, you had already spent nine months writing another book, a hundred stories about creativity and synchronicity, when Jim suggested turning the costume design material into a conversation. Once someone who had known you for more than 60 years began interviewing you, what did you discover about your own life that had not surfaced in the previous manuscript?

3:36You know, it's so interesting, whenever somebody else comes in, in a relationship, and it's not just you and your ideas, you're forced to think about things in ways that you have never really thought about them before, which was certainly the case with Jim. And we had an interesting thing happen a couple years ago, because Jim's films are not Hollywood films, they're independent films that are very successful all over the world.

4:08He's won Academy Awards in different countries, but they're lower budget, they have less background. And I was about to go to do a film, May Day, which is out right now, which was a $200 million movie, and it was huge. And when I was in Budapest, and I was going to be shooting these scenes where we had 3,000 background in 1987 period costumes, and 1,200 Russian soldiers that we built all the uniforms for in Spain.

4:42And I kept thinking, oh, Jim would really love this. And it was Kenneth Branagh and Ryan Reynolds, and I thought this would be great for him to see, since his films only have like 40 background at the most. And he jumped on a plane and came, and found it fascinating. And I think it just started stimulating questions about, because it certainly, in terms of the war job, I don't know how much he really thought about it, in terms of his films.

5:12So it kind of opened up a new world for him of questions and ideas that he hadn't thought about before. And then, in doing the process, I learned so much more about my own process by having to verbalize it. Dressing the story is part conversation, part memoir, part documentation. And much of what I'm going to ask you about today is from the marvelous stories that you share in your book. So I really want to start nearly at the beginning, when you were six.

5:44Since we already talked about when you were four, when you were six, your brother Marty became obsessed with the Cleveland Indians player Woody Held. And you've said that baseball became your way into the world your father and brother shared. You didn't especially love the game, but you wanted access to their passion. What did you actually do to get yourself into that world with them? Well, it's funny, because I was a little athlete that didn't, you know, it was, we didn't have girls sports in those days, believe it or not.

6:18That's how old I am. You know, there was girls softball and things like that, but nothing really like the boys did. And I kind of wanted in on it. So I used to ride my bike and dress up like a boy and go to the baseball field. And my mom said she used to love seeing me do that because I always had my purse hanging from the handlebars. Like there was always like something there. But I kind of wanted to be like the boys, and I wasn't. But I knew that, like, if I had some interest that they'd pay more attention to me.

6:51And I have to say, the boys in my family were obsessed with sports to this day. My son, okay, my husband's not that obsessed, but he's pretty obsessed. So it's had to be sort of this thing that I've had to either tolerate or get into. And their passion was so strong. And that's what I was attracted to. It wasn't the sports, and it wasn't the game, really. It was just their passion. They were so excited and yelling and screaming and jumping up and down and following teams and knowing numbers of players.

7:22And I thought that was really fascinating. I know that you'll be going back to Cleveland as part of your book tour. What does Cleveland mean to you now? In a way, it's everything, you know, that in writing the book is where I really got to that point. I don't know if I hadn't had the space and time to sit down and really reflect and think about growing up in the way that I examined it when I was writing the book. Because really my focus was on creativity and really thinking about what were those things in my life that stimulated that creativity.

8:01And there were so many, you know, my thing with Jim, which is such a wonderful story, is that we were in a school play together, our town, and Jim was the narrator. And he was, I think he was 11th or 12th grade, and I was in 8th grade. That was the first time we actually talked, and we would sit down and chat about the play and about things. And he would ask, he always asked me a lot of questions. And then one day he said to me, do you know that, like, being cool, because I know you want to be cool because you're cool.

8:34Do you know that, like, being smart and pretty is, like, really cool? And I wasn't really sure what he was, and I was like, what do you mean? And he goes, well, do you read? And I was like, yeah, you know, I mean, I read, like, for school and stuff. And he said, if I gave you some books, would you read them? And I said, yeah. And that was kind of the beginning of my intellectual curiosity. And I definitely, he's definitely responsible for igniting that spark that probably wouldn't have been sparked for another 10 years.

9:07Well, I know that your mother also was somebody who was really influential in helping to ignite your creativity. I read that for one Hanukkah, she gave you a tiny, fully functioning sewing machine so that you can make clothes for Barbie dolls, your Barbie dolls. And I read that you began using old clothes, fur, ribbons, your grandmother's scarves as material. What was the first thing you tried to make once you had that machine? A gown.

9:39With a first tool. And was it just for Barbies or could you make clothes for humans also? You know, no, not on that machine. It was just for Barbie. But, you know, Barbie and I were both born in 1952. So she and I had a lot in common. And she was a way that I could express my creativity. And I did. I took it really seriously. And then I'm sure you also read that when I was seven, I read Millie the Model comic book.

10:09And I saw that you could send drawings in and maybe they'd get published. And so I sent a series of drawings and it got published. And it was a little yellow dress. And it said, costume design by Debbie K. Fine, age seven. And so there's something about it being in print that was like, I don't know, I kind of felt like it already arrived. Like I was a, oh, I'm a designer. So I always, that was kind of my identity from the time I was seven.

10:43Well, please, please tell me you still have that issue. I don't have the issue, but I have gotten like pictures of it because I've done all these little mock-up books. And that's in the mock-up book, the picture and the Debbie K. Fine. I went looking for it. I couldn't find it.

Luxury goods and early design identity

11:03Around that same period, you were in a dress shop with your mom when you sat down on the floor with a child's dress made from imported Italian knit. And you began examining it inside and out. And you said that it felt different, it smelled different, and it was sewn differently. What did that dress make you feel? Well, that store is where I would like run into all the time, and I couldn't believe the clothes.

11:35Like they were just, they were like grown-up kind of concepts, but they were little for my size. And so I was already obsessed, and I knew my mom had said something about that they were from Italy or something. Not that I comprehended what that meant. But one day I went in, and I'm like, I got to look at these and see why they're special. And like just even talking about it with you right now, I can remember the smell in the store. Like it's so visceral, that experience.

12:05My mom did eventually buy me one of those outfits, you know, that you wore with your little papagallos or something. And I just had a real connection to these fine goods, these luxury goods, and the concept that these were different than other things. And then as I got older and I started looking into like what it meant, what's couture, and why is that different than other clothes, and it's kind of became a passion of mine. You've called your mother president of your fan club, and by the time you were 10, she was already driving you to art classes at the Cleveland Museum of Art.

12:44What kind of artwork were you making at 10 years old? I was doing drawings, and I was doing a lot of fashion drawings, and I loved art. I loved looking at art. I mean, we also went to the Cleveland Museum. I loved looking at paintings. My grandmother, my paternal grandmother, her apartment was filled with chinoiserie. And I was obsessed with the colors, and her furniture was chinoiserie, the rugs, everything was gorgeous, the paintings.

13:15So I became really interested in this, in Chinese art and Asian art, Japanese art. And so my mom took me one day to the Verne Gallery in Cleveland, and they specialized in Japanese art. And when we would go downtown, she would take me there so that I could see whatever they had. And years, years, years, years later, I'm doing Freaks and Geeks, and I'm having my first conversation with James Franco. And he had walked in really scruffy with a stocking cap on his head, and he had a book under his arm, which I glanced at, and it was Camus.

13:55And so I had this whole idea in my head that he was, like, doing this James Dean thing or trying to be, you know, he was really young. I think he was maybe 19 or something. But then when he got into the dressing room and we started chatting, and I always ask, where are you from, and blah, blah, blah. And he said he was from Palo Alto. Talk about our parents and where I was from. And he said, oh, my grandmother's from Cleveland. I said, you're kidding. He said, no, she actually, she has a Japanese art gallery. I said, what's it called?

14:25And he said, the Verne Gallery. I was like, what? I actually think I know your grandmother. I do know your grandmother. Like, my mom used to take me there when I was a little girl. So that was kind of mind-blowing. And then recently, when I was in Rhode Island writing the book, I'm writing that chapter. And my friend Daniel came over, who's a painter in Rhode Island, Daniel Heyman, fabulous painter. And he plopped himself down at the table and said, I have something really exciting to tell you.

15:00I said, what? He said, I'm going to have a gallery show in Cleveland. And I wanted you to know, because it's Cleveland. I said, what gallery? He goes, it's a Japanese gallery called the Verne Gallery.

15:11Synchronicity. So there you go. So that first book I wrote, Those Hundred Stories, are stories like that. And they're stories about the magic of these things happen. And I think in a creative life and the creative brain, like, we have an energy field that if we connect with the universe in that way that's organic and with energy, that stuff happens. You've said that you now recognize those early images as part of your visual DNA.

15:46And I'm wondering in what way they influenced your creativity. Well, the Japanese aesthetic and Chinese, like, that Asian aesthetic was always kind of how I gravitated to art. And the things I like looking at. And then as I started making art, things had a bit of that, even just in terms of the colors. And especially when I started working with fabrics, once I moved into fabrics, it was still, like, that palette and peonies are my favorite flowers.

16:26Like, I just have those things. And I feel like they are part of my DNA. And you never know the things that are going to imprint you for the rest of your life. And I don't even know that I would have known my grandmother's influence had I not taken the time to write the book. Because I'm not a writer. And I would sit down eight hours a day and just make outlines of, like, time periods and things.

16:57And then as I started, like, focusing in, these things appeared. Like, when I literally say that I can smell, I can, it's visceral, these memories. So sometimes they kind of, they wax and wane. And you have to do certain things or have certain disciplines to bring them back into your being. And I think that's what happened.

Political upheaval and Boulder days

17:22By high school, the political upheaval of the late 1960s changed your relationship to fashion so dramatically that you became embarrassed by the idea of devoting yourself to adornment. And for your senior project, you worked in an inner-city community because you believed education could change the world. What did you hope to accomplish with this type of project and doing that work? First of all, I'm so blown away that you know so much about me.

17:55And I'm so honored, I have to say. Thank you. You're welcome. Well, it's an honor to have you here. Thank you.

18:03Yeah, I mean, you know, I grew up in Cleveland, so Kent State was right there. And one of my best friends who was a couple years older than me, Ellen Robbins, may she rest in peace, was at Kent State. And one of her best friends was one of the young women who was killed. And a few years later, when I ended up going to Boulder, Ellen and I ended up living together. And at the time, she had been head of SDS. But when I was still in high school, Ellen really politicized us, like taught us, and why we needed to be focused on things and march and write letters and do things.

18:45Because she really felt like we could move the needle if we did things. And I started thinking about what could I do. And what I could do is help to educate young people in the inner city. Because I felt like one of the biggest problems in the world was the lack of education of people. It's funny that I'm saying that because I'm engrossed in the same exact thing in 2026. And, you know, dumbfounded by how we really haven't moved that far in terms of higher education, middle education, lower education.

19:21And we're way behind. And I think it really impacts culture and the world and the way the world is going to be. So that's what I focused on. I mean, I was pretty, you know, I was 17 years old. But I did the project with a couple other people. And it was a wonderful, intimate way to work with other people who were also very socially conscious. And it was a great experience. And then going to college, it was kind of an awkward thing. I got rejected to all my schools.

19:53I don't know why I felt like I should go to an Ivy League school. It was kind of a stupid idea in the first place. And... Why stupid? Because I was an artist and I wasn't sure. I was kind of torn because my politics and my interest in history, you know, that was one thing. And so I didn't go to college right away. I just tried to figure out what I was going to do. And I went to see Mr. Sheffield at my high school. And everyone was kind of in shock that I was the one that didn't go to school.

20:25And he said, well, where would you want to go? And I said, I don't know. Berkeley, Santa Cruz, Boulder. And he said, okay, well, let's talk tomorrow. Let me make a few phone calls. So my brother was at Stanford calling every day saying, what are you doing in Cleveland? Get out of there. You got to get out of Cleveland. You got to go. You don't have to go to school, but you come to California, like do something. And I was like really torn. And he called me and he said, well, you can go to Boulder or Santa Cruz, but you have to wait until next September.

20:56Or you can go to, you can just go to Boulder in January. And it was like December. And I was like, okay, I'll go to Boulder. Well, while you were there, you, while you went to the, you did go to the University of Colorado at Boulder, which is really one of the most beautiful places on the planet. I did a cross country trip when I was in college. I went to the University of Albany, State University of New York at Albany. And literally when I stopped in Boulder, I almost stayed. I almost stayed. If it weren't for my family, I would have just stopped everything that I was doing and

21:29then moved to Boulder and who knows. But in any case, it was so dramatic. Like when you would drive in and you don't see anything and then all of a sudden you're going down and you see those mountains. Yes. I thought they were clouds at first. And then as I got closer, I'm like, oh my God, those aren't clouds. Those are mountains. I know. Yeah. But you studied painting and religious studies. And you said that the books Meditation in Action and Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism rocked your 18-year-old world. In what way? So how fortunate was I to have as a professor Shogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, a Tibetan monk who

22:11had fled Tibet to Europe. And he started a meditation community in Europe and then eventually came to the United States and landed in, of all places, Boulder, Colorado. So I took his class and everything that he spoke about spoke to me, you know. And there was a small group then of maybe 25 people that were followers of his. And I started studying with him. And I was a student of his and of Buddhism for about 10 years and had very serious meditation

22:47practice and moved to Padmajong, which was the meditation community in the mountains in Mendocino. At the same time, I was painting. And when I first went up there, I thought maybe I could develop some kind of a painting program with California College of Arts and Crafts, where I had gone to school and the Art Institute. And I tried to do something and I wasn't very successful. But there was an Indian community in Covalo. And I had gotten my secondary and elementary teaching credentials when I was still in art school.

23:19I went an extra semester to get my credentials. And so I could substitute teach. So I went to this Indian community and I worked there and taught. And that was pretty enlightening and fascinating. A whole other world of Indian culture that I really didn't know that much about. And then I dug pretty deep and wanted to learn about that culture. And life just kind of took its course. I don't know. I ended up, met my husband, my first husband up there. And he was a musician.

23:52And we had a lot of musicians at the time that were part of our Buddhist community. Jerry Grinelli, who was a famous jazz drummer. And so music was a big part of the community. And then eventually we moved down to the Bay Area. And that's when I started teaching. I taught for the adult school in Berkeley. I taught in the Oakland Public Schools. At the same time, I was still painting. And I had a gallery in San Francisco eventually. They did a show of their artists, painters, working in another material besides paint.

24:29And I made a necklace that was painted plex glass, wood, and computer parts, which at the time, my studio was in Emeryville in a building with all the computer geeks. So I used to get baskets of all the leftover computer parts to make sculpture and jewelry out of. Didn't you also make a necklace out of paper? And paper. Well, that first necklace, the one that sort of got everybody's attention, was everything. It was painted paper and plexiglass and had everything, parts.

25:00And the then president of I-Magnons, Norman Wexler, with his assistant, Grace Coddington. The Grace Coddington. The Grace Coddington. The Grace Coddington. Came to the art opening and saw my piece. And I think it was probably Grace's idea and said, Norm, you should contact her and see if she'd be interested in doing some pieces for the store. So I'd say that was the beginning of my jewelry career. Yes, I would say that was quite an astonishing beginning.

Building an international jewelry business

25:28It was.

Building an international jewelry business

25:29Before we go into that, I have to ask you one question about a time when you thought that you had invented the denim jeans turned into a skirt, which you were convinced you had invented. So can you just share that story? And then I want to pick it back up and talk about your jewelry business. So when you live on the top of a mountain, you don't have that much access to the world. So we were in our bubble. And, of course, I'm very fashion conscious, even though I was a total hippie.

25:59But I figured we needed to make some clothes. So my girlfriend had, you know, a foot pedal sewing machine and we figured out how we were going to make wrap skirts. And one day I took my jeans and I cut them up and I said, wouldn't this be cool? We could wear it on our hips and then, like, we could applique it in the middle and it would be like a long skirt, but it would be all the denim. So we made these denim skirts and we just thought we were like the boss, right? And then it wasn't until I wore my skirt into San Francisco and we went and it's the first time I realized that there were all these people with denim skirts that were made out of jeans.

26:38And I was like, wait a minute. I thought I invented that. Yeah. It's part of the Zeitgeist, I guess. I didn't invent them. So you get sort of noticed and discovered by Grace Coddington and then you are designing a collection for the store and it's a job you had never done. What did you have to learn first? How did you go from making really a one-off piece to then having a whole line? So I think there was one manufacturer maybe in Oakland and I went to visit to talk about, like, how to produce these pieces.

27:18And the first pieces, if I recall, were made out of brass and we had etched out parts that were filled with, like, an enamel in colors and then they were plated in gold. And so I went to this factory and that's kind of how it started and I gave them my drawings and they kind of showed me how to do these things. And the gallery thing and doing the stuff for iMagnons was, like, really just the beginning of, like, oh, it was kind of a real aha.

27:50And then Robert Lee Morris in New York developed, you know, with Donna Karan. He was doing what was called fashion jewelry and that was really attracted to me. And then when my husband and I got divorced, I called my friends in New York and said, I'm going to move to New York and I'm going to do jewelry. And I called my girlfriend Jackie, who was Jackie Oaks, a documentary filmmaker, and she said, oh, it's your lucky day. I said, what? She goes, well, I'm going to go edit my film in Massachusetts and the loft will be empty.

28:21You can move in. So I moved to New York. I have this unbelievable loft on Broadway in Houston and then her neighbor, who also had another 5,000 square feet, was Robin Winter. And he's a painter. He was going to teach in California and he said, well, you could use my loft, too. So I moved to New York. I have nothing, but I have 10,000 square feet of loft space. And I don't know, I just was, like, going to start making jewelry. So I went down to the jewelry section, like, in the 30s.

28:53And the first thing I did is I saw these huge corrugated brass beads in bottles and I ordered a couple dozen. I went back to the factory. I took a hammer. I started pounding them open and somehow managed to, like, turn this pounded, corrugated jewelry into something. I have a girlfriend, Ivy Ross, who was kind of just leaving the jewelry business to start in the corporate world, which you probably know Ivy.

29:23Yes, I've interviewed her. She's head of product design at Google now. So we've both had these very long, interesting careers. And Ivy introduced me to everybody in New York. And I went to see Arthur Cook, who was the buyer at Bergdorf. And he said to me, I could tell you're really talented, but I need to get the California out of you. So I want you to live in New York for a few months and then come back and see me. So I was looking at these pieces of corrugated metal and trying to figure out, how could I make it New York? Like, black, black.

29:54Everything in New York is black. So I started looking up how to anodize metal into black. And I found, like, this motorcycle shop in the Bronx. You know, I didn't know New York. I didn't know neighborhoods or anything. I had no idea where it was. And I called the guy and I said, so I have these pieces and do you anodize and would you be able to do this? And he said, yeah, come see me. And he gave me the address. And I took a taxi there and my taxi driver was so freaked out by the neighborhood. Like, everything was burned to the ground except this little brick building that he dropped me off at.

30:28And he goes, I'm not leaving you here. I'm going to wait for you. I was like, okay. And I go in and I met the guy. And it was like, it looked like 500, like, Haitian workers that were there. And I was so freaked out. I was like, where am I? And the guy was like, what do you want me to do? And I said, I want you to anodize these black. And he said, can you leave them with me? I said, yeah, I'll leave them with you. So I left him with him. And I called him about a week later and I said, were you able to do something? And he said, yeah, can you come pick them up? I said, well, if somebody will take me there, I don't know.

30:59Anyways, I had to get like a car service to take me there who was also freaked out. And I got the pieces and they were gorgeous. And I went back and made them into necklaces and bracelets and earrings. And then I had another appointment with Arthur Cook and he bought the collection. And the bracelet ended up on the cover of the first American Elle magazine. It was a yellow glove with the black bracelet on it. And then the rest is history. All of a sudden I had like this new career and I was really into it.

31:32And, you know, eventually I found out that the jewelry capital was in Providence. Then I better go to Providence and find someone to make my jewelry. And, well, your experiment became a substantial international jewelry company. You had licensing in Japan. You had boutiques in Tokyo, offices in multiple cities, a factory in Providence, as you just mentioned. You had more than 100 employees. At what point did you recognize that you were no longer simply running a studio? You were running a business, a company.

32:03I knew I was running a business when I couldn't collect money and the person in charge of collecting money said, I think you better get on the phone and you try. And I was like, oh, I'm an artist. I'm not supposed to feel like collecting money. And that was very strange. And that's the first time I thought about, is this really what I want to do? And I was doing the trade shows and I remember standing in a booth at the trade show one day and saying, is this what I'm going to be doing when I'm 50?

32:37I don't think so. I don't think this is what I want to do. So that's when I started thinking, what's the next move here? And little did I know, I mean, you know, life just kind of kept providing opportunities for me and I followed them. A promotional film about your jewelry for the Japanese market became your first real encounter with filmmaking. What interested you about filmmaking that you hadn't encountered in your other work?

33:07Well, it came to life in a completely different way. And I was very into avant-garde. And one of my best friends who I had met in Paris who had an avant-garde dance theater, that was the first time I really thought about actually doing costumes because I would travel with them sort of as when I had my jewelry business as fun. And everybody would be like, what does she do? And they were like, oh, she's our manager. And I was like, you know, I should do the costumes or something.

33:38I mean, I didn't know what I was doing. But anyways, they eventually, they were in Europe for seven years, seven, eight years in France, the company. And then they ended up moving to New York. And I had the jewelry business so I could hire the dancers in my company. And that was really amazing. And when I had the opportunity to do the video, I had Jackie, who was the documentary filmmaker, and Wendy, who was the visionary. And the idea of having two of my best friends, being able to collaborate, because I have to say, one of the things about painting and the solitudeness of painting at some point really got to me.

34:19And that's why when I started doing other things and it was interacting with people, it felt much more like my natural abilities. And so collaboration was exciting. And then Wendy's husband at the time was a brilliant pianist composer. And so we decided to do this piece. The Japanese said they would pay for it. And it was just so exciting because it starts with a big turquoise bowl of oranges. And then the orange, this is before AI, the oranges burst open.

34:53And inside of the oranges is the black jewelry. And they were these very gorgeous images. And then, you know, we had, I mean, when I look at it now, the fashion, it was just so incredible. It's the quintessential 80s, encapsulates everything about the best of the 80s, I think, in terms of fashion. But yeah, it was amazing. It was an amazing experience to do that. And, but it was doing a film. I mean, it was, and I just loved seeing everything come to life and seeing the colors and being able to figure out the clothes.

35:30And yeah, it was very exciting.

Transitioning from business to film

35:32Little did I know. Yes. Well, he started to become more serious about exploring film. And Mark Canton, who was then one of the top production executives at Warner Brothers, suggested that you see how a movie was made from the inside. And he got you a production assistant job on My Blue Heaven. At that point, did you have any idea what kind of work you wanted to do in film? No, I remember I met with my friend Barry Cross, and he was like, what do you want to do? I said, well, I don't know. I don't know if I want to production design or direct or do costumes.

36:08And what eventually came to me after doing that experience on My Blue Heaven, because you have to understand, and I don't want to diminish in any way the role of a costume designer, because it's an incredible job. But I was running a very big business. I had showrooms all over the country. I had licensing in Japan. I had a million different pieces in the puzzle. And costume design, it was so singular. You know, it was like they get the script, and they break it down, and they figure out who the characters are.

36:43And there was something very interesting about it also as a storytelling vehicle. But it was simpler in a way. And also seemed very collaborative, which, as I said, is the thing that excites me the most. I realized after doing that, that moving into costume was a lateral move. And becoming a production designer or a director would take maybe years of getting the knowledge and experience necessary for moving in there.

37:16I really felt that I understood what it would take to be a costume designer. And little did I know that all of this business experience and being able to multitask the way I did is, I think, really why I've been able to be successful as a costume designer. And I eventually found my way in costume where I started doing multiple projects at the same time. And I think it was hard for other people to understand, and certainly other designers, that I was, like, taking other people's jobs or whatever.

37:52The truth of the matter is, I'm better the more I do. And I get excited with more things. So if I was reading one script and breaking it down, I could read five scripts and break them down. And then I had all those characters. And then once I started doing multiple projects and I started hiring and getting my core crew together – and my core crew, by the way, came from my store in the Palisades, which I started when I started doing Friends.

38:22And that was my training ground for people who would eventually become customers on the other side, would go – if I saw that they had a certain skill, which is basically finding a needle in a haystack with some creativity, they could go on the other side. And that's kind of how I developed my crews. And what I realized is that I could hire – I could have that many more people working. So if I was doing one project, I might have, you know, a dozen or 20 people working.

38:55And if I was doing two projects, I could have that many. And I could employ that many people. What I didn't realize was once I started that in motion, it was almost impossible to drop it because I felt responsible for so many people's lives. And a lot of the people I hired were people who were older, women who had children, because believe it or not, in those days, a lot of people didn't hire people who had children because they felt like they wouldn't be able to work those hours.

39:30I found the contrary, that people with children know how to manage time, they're geniuses at time management, and that's what this job is really about to a great extent. And so that's kind of how that career kind of blossomed and developed and why I had so many incredible people who worked for me. And some of the people that were the closest to me and started as assistants, they came to me because their moms had read an article about me, cut it out of the newspaper and said, you should try and work for this woman.

40:02And like three of the young women who came to work for me came to me that way. And what's interesting is they the three of them became best friends. So all my assistants somehow over the years had so much in common with each other. And I loved seeing that everybody, you know, really had a lot. Yeah. So my career was is so much about people. And it wasn't till COVID that the machinery stopped. You first met Marta Kaufman, David Crane and Kevin Bright when you interviewed for the television sitcom Family Album.

Costume design on Friends

40:39You borrowed an olive green Versace miniskirt suit from your friend Alice. And as you left, Marta told you to make sure the women on the show looked as good as you did. And I believe you think that that suit helped you begin one of the defining relationships of your career. Well, I do. And it was certainly a suit I couldn't afford. It was an olive green Versace suit that was so fabulous with big shoulders and a miniskirt. And I remember I had dark brown opaque stockings with these big clunky brown heels.

41:13And I just felt so cool in it. And I just giggled when I left because I thought, oh, my God, maybe when I wear my clothes, she's not going to think I'm as fabulous. This is the most fabulous I'm ever going to be. But it made the bar pretty high. And so I do dress for work every day. Obviously. Ever since then. I wish my audience could see what you're wearing right now. Well, Family Album didn't last, but your relationship with Marta, David and Kevin did. What did you build with them on that first show that survived the show itself?

41:48It's a really good question. Well, we had a lot of obstacles. We had an actress that was supposed to do the show that they recast at the last minute. And so I had to scramble with a new actress with no time to get the wardrobe together. But, of course, I got it together. Of course. Because, you know, for me, this is like it's all problem solving. And it's pretty simple. I'm really good at that. And I think they saw that. They liked that. I think to this day, I think it's the reason why people hire me.

42:20I'm a problem solver. And we really got along. I mean, Marta and I became very, very close friends. And she had small children. And I had small children. And the children became friends. And so it was very familial. We were very much on the same wavelength. And she was a huge part for me in developing as a designer because, especially with comedy, she really taught me about the written word and comedy. And if I'm going to be a storyteller as well as her being a storyteller, I have to really understand what her story is.

42:54And know how to support that without taking the camera, with just creating that character as a partner. And she really taught me that. And so she would come in when we were setting the line for every show and we would go through every person's wardrobe and she would give her feedback. Of course, she loved everything, but she would have really brilliant ideas about certain things that had to do with the subliminal effect and the words.

43:26And I learned a lot. And, you know, it's not a coincidence that most of my career is in comedy because also with Judd Apatow, a similar sensibility and Jake Kasdan, where they wanted things to look really real and not a typical comedy, but more reality and defining reality. And that was also great training for, you know, you never step ahead. You're kind of holding behind and supporting.

44:00That's an interesting thing and something that has to be learned. Not long after a family album, you'd just given birth to your daughter when Marta called you in the hospital on a Thursday and asked you whether you could begin working on another sitcom named Friends on the upcoming Monday. What had to happen between Thursday and Monday to make that, like, remotely possible? I had to hire a crew and I hired people and they came to my house Saturday and Sunday.

44:32With a newborn baby? With a newborn baby. I got my mom to come with me on Monday and I put Lily in this beautiful little basket that Alice had given me that she had used for her child. And what I remember the most is Jimmy Burroughs getting really mad at me because I carried the basket onto the soundstage. And he started yelling at me and I thought he didn't like me. Like, I didn't know why he was yelling.

45:02And you're talking about the director of the show. Yeah, Jimmy Burroughs, who we just lost recently. I know. Famous Jimmy Burroughs. What an amazing person. For years I thought he didn't like me because he made me leave with my baby. I thought maybe he doesn't like children or anything. Years later when he married Debbie, who we knew because she worked on Friends with us, I ended up doing the dresses for his daughters for the wedding and got to know him on a really personal, deep level and realized how much he loves children.

45:36And I confronted him and said, why were you so mad at me? And he said, are you kidding me? A soundstage, like anything could fall from the ceiling and hurt that baby. I said, why didn't you just say that to me then? I said, I thought all these years you didn't like me. Well, in television at that time, there was a lot of bad denim, oversized silhouettes, colors that seemed disconnected from the rooms around them. And Marta, initially imagine the characters casually dressed in jeans.

46:07And you wanted something more elevated because as someone who had actually lived in New York, you understood their Manhattan as an aspirational world. What did aspirational mean to you when the characters themselves still needed to feel entirely believable? Well, it's an interesting question. You know, Marta was also from New York, but we had two different New Yorks. I mean, she's a writer and her experience of New York was really different than mine. You know, I had a very different kind of business where I had to dress.

46:39And so my New York experience was different than hers. That's why she saw it as denim and I saw it as elevated. And these characters, as I said, first of all, everything with friends was on the page. Everything was the written word. Understanding these characters was really understanding what was in the head of the writers and how they saw these characters. And they had very, very clear ideas of who they were. So my job wasn't to make Debra McGuire clothes.

47:11My job was to help them visualize and create and tell the story that they were trying to tell visually with these characters. And that was such an interesting process. And I feel like what I brought to it, since I was so fresh and new in the business, and I don't know what other costume designers do. I had no idea. I only know how to approach it as a painter. So I assume it's a two-dimensional surface.

47:42You know, what we're looking at is a television set. And it's like a painting. So what makes a painting interesting? Well, it's color, form, shape, light. And that's how I approached it. And I thought, okay, I am going to give every character their own color field, their own palette. Because I realized early on that the six of them were going to be together a lot. And so it was more like a tableau than the individual fashion.

48:13And, you know, it's funny when you think about it now, because so many people think it was all about fashion. And for me, it really wasn't about fashion. It was really about character and getting those colors and silhouettes to look beautiful together. And, you know, the loft was purple, was lavender, and there was a lot of color in there. We also worked closely together, Greg Grande, the set decorator, and the production designers, to develop those initial palettes. And I was pretty strict with that palette for a really long time.

48:46I didn't loosen up for years. And then eventually, once we all knew who they were, I could get a little more experimental and fluid with that. Well, I want to share for our listeners what those palettes were. So Monica was in black, white, gray, and burgundy. Rachel in blues, greens, and rich textures. Phoebe in layers and pattern. Ross in tweed and corduroy. Chandler in vintage shirts and quirky ties. Some of those inspired by your shirts that your dad wore.

49:18Joey in flannel, chenille, and worn leather. And so it's true, then, that your father's shirts inspired what Chandler was wearing. So he was wearing those shirts your father wore in the 40s. Correct. And those were what Chandler was wearing. Well, I do have to say those shirts lasted through the 50s because they were gabardine and they were gorgeous. And it was the clothes he used to put on after he got out of his suits every day. At times, you were handling more than 75 costume changes in a single half-hour episode.

49:50And in the first few seasons, you assumed that because you were the designer, you should design and make almost everything. How long did that last? It didn't last through the whole first year. But I tried it every attempt. But then what I realized is in order to build clothes, you have to have fittings. Nobody wanted to have fittings. And it was almost impossible. And 75 costume changes. Yeah, mind-blowing. Yes. Mind-blowing. I mean, more mind-blowing looking back at the time. I mean, at the time, it was a lot.

50:21But when you do the numbers now, it doesn't seem humanly possible. And we had guests, you know, it was guest stars. You'd have three guest stars. They'd have maybe three changes each. So it was a lot of wardrobe. You know, the cast didn't love doing fittings. So I had to sort of, like, just go with the flow. You know, I tried to explore. You know, eventually as the seasons went on, you know, I loved looking globally for inspiration in clothes and going all over the world. And when we got to be in London to work, I discovered some amazing designers there that I used.

50:57Isn't that where you found Rachel's famous yellow dress? Yeah, at Idle London. They were just amazing. And it was so interesting because their boutique was a lot like my boutique in the Palisades. Like, we definitely were, like, mirror images of each other. But their clothes were, they had a lot of handwork in their clothes with, like, silver and gold threads. And they were just extraordinary. They were really, like, cool rock and roll clothing. And there were so many pieces that I bought for Phoebe that she actually never wore.

51:28But I felt like it was, like, culturally responsible for me to have them. I don't know if you know this, but I was doing some research about this yellow dress. Do you know that there are people that make that dress, that copy that dress and sell it on Etsy? I did not know that. Isn't that amazing? There's a whole slew of people on Etsy that make that exact yellow dress. Why did that particular dress work so completely for Rachel and take on such a life of its own the way it has? Well, when we talk about Jennifer.

52:00Okay. Jennifer Aniston. Jennifer Aniston. We're not just talking about a normal human being. I mean, Jennifer has a physicality. I mean, look at her today, you know, at the age that she is. She has a physicality that is so spectacular that she just makes everything sing. So, okay, her shoulders are the most beautiful things you've ever seen. So, that dress was cut straight across and it just, you know, everything about her shoulders and her skin.

52:31And that color, it was a yellow brocade. And I'd be curious to see what those dresses are that they make because that was all hand embroidering on it. I mean, it was just so magnificent. And just the way it fit her body and the slit and the length and everything about it was perfection. But you could say that about a lot of things that she wears. Now and then.

Collaborating with Jennifer Aniston

52:53Well, she was 24 when you met. Early on, she invited you to her house with a friend to help clean out her closet and remake her wardrobe. And afterward, you went shopping together at Fred Siegel. What were you looking for as you went piece by piece through her closet with her? Well, her clothes were, you know, they were kids' clothes. They were, it's interesting because that part of Jennifer is still who she is. You know, she can rock a denim jean like nobody and a t-shirt.

53:23She is still that girl. But there were just things that were like leftover 80s things and those 90s things that just, yeah, get them out of here. You know, let's start fresh. Let's get a little more sophisticated. Boy, she got sophisticated really fast. You know what I mean? She got with the program because her of all celebrities, I have to say, you've not seen a red carpet mistake ever. Ever. Ever. And she's just extraordinary that way. And, you know, we all just, you know, admire that about her.

53:57And for me, you know, being able to do the morning show and still working with her, it's such a gift. You know, she's also the loveliest person and so respectful. It's great. And it's great having a lifetime with people. The fitted tees and the body conscious clothes that you helped popularize eventually followed you home. I read that your daughter told you other girls were wearing them because friends made them famous. You do it on friends. Why can't I is what she said to you. What did that exchange with your daughter revealed to you about the reach of your own work?

54:29Well, that was reality coming home. I felt like I had a responsibility. And actually what I ended up doing is I wrote a book that I never published that I still have called Your Daughter's Closet. And what it was about, I interviewed a lot of girls her age and took pictures of their closets and talked about, like, what was important to them in terms of the way they feel about themselves and look at themselves and dressing. But the most important part of the book for me was about what the inner beauty is and how to get teenagers and young women to see the essence of themselves rather than the physicality.

55:09And that's kind of what the book was about. I didn't publish that, I think, just because I got so busy. And now that I've published a book, I can see why I didn't, because it's a really complicated process. But I did have a social responsibility. I mean, you know, we were we started those midriff, tight, juicy T-shirts and the hardtail rollover pants. They were very body conscious, very sexy. And, of course, the young girls gravitated to it like crazy. And it kind of drove me crazy.

55:40It was a constant thing, you know, because I picked the soccer girls up, you know, after school or something. And some of them would have, like, something very revealing. You know, they were so young. And I was like, oh, my God. So I felt a little responsible. One of the most famous costume gags of all was Joey wearing every piece of Chandler's clothing at once. This also made the cover, made it to the cover of your book. How did you make that happen? I know, isn't it wild? It's incredible.

56:10And everybody probably on the planet knows that image. Well, it was such a fun thing to build because it looks like it was all the, but of course it's not. You enter from the back, so the back was open. And then we just took portions of all of the clothes. And then when you close it up of what you actually physically can see. And that was a really important piece for me just in terms of costume because that's when I started getting really excited in the workroom about the potential of what we could do and what we could build.

56:42And certainly I've done a million things in my career that I was able to utilize those skills because there's nothing like that, you know, of taking something like that. And then the most hysterical thing was when Balenciaga launched the coat a few years ago. You know, that was $9,000 and it was basically the Joey coat. Yes. Fantastic. When Julia Roberts guest starred on Friends, you met with her in her dressing room and asked what she wanted to wear. She looked at you and said, I like what you're wearing.

57:13And is it true you ended up handing over your own black velvet shirt and pants? Yeah, I just stripped down and she just put it on. Yeah, we just stripped and put it on. Did you trade clothes? Like, what did you end up wearing? I think I took it back and then I went and we had it dry cleaned and I wore something else home or something. But that's a really good question that I don't totally remember. But I do remember that we figured out what she was wearing and it looked great. It was a stretch velvet. So it was like it had just such a great fit. And she was just she was a dream. You were also the designer, the costume designer for Freaks and Geeks.

Freaks, Geeks, and Anchorman

57:47And in that show, you over dyed virtually every piece of clothing in gray or brown. So nothing looked too crisp, new or self-consciously, period. What did that layer of muted color do to the emotional temperature of the show? Why was that so important to you? Well, if you look at the show, you'll see because, you know, I don't it's certainly not obvious. But after it's funny because after reading the book, so many of my friends went back to watch Anchorman and watch Freaks and Geeks. And they're like, oh, I get it now.

58:18But, you know, that's exciting to me because it's all subliminal. It's subliminal. I mean, the thing about Judd and Jake that's that I learned from them in terms of not, you know, when we do something period, your goal really is to transcend the period to make it. You could make it look like it's from the past, but not to, like, nail it into a period. And I learned a lot. And in doing that, that's what I was trying to do.

58:50I was trying to get the essence of moving backwards, but not necessarily nailing that exact period. In fact, I'm pretty sure Freaks and Geeks was like around 1980, and we skewed it a couple years earlier because it was Midwest. And I thought, since I'm from Ohio, I know that in Midwest we were a little slower. And I can't remember where Paul was from, but it was not Ohio, but maybe Illinois or something.

59:22But close enough that I knew that we could get away with going back a few extra years, which is what I did. Lindsay Weir's Vietnam-era army jacket became a kind of shelter for a smart, dutiful girl beginning to test another identity. Why was that particular jacket able to carry so much of her character? Because she was – I really saw a lot of myself in that character, actually. Because she didn't want to be the smart girl.

59:56She was the smart girl. She wanted to be the cool girl. And so she was trying to find her way in those worlds. And that coat allowed her to go between both worlds safely.

1:00:13You just mentioned Anchorman. That was Adam McKay's first film. You said that the unexpected gift of working at that point with him was having his undivided attention in a way that you rarely experienced again. How did that influence what you were able to do in that film? Oh, it was unbelievable. I mean, I literally, in all these years, 37 years, I don't know when I've had an experience like that. Because what I've told you about in terms of how I work in palette, I mean, we were kind of able to design almost every frame of the movie because he didn't know any better.

1:00:52So, you know, he shared all the – you know, I knew all the drawings of how things were going to go. And I knew how I could construct it. And I was very aware of where we were shooting it and what the backgrounds were and what the color field was. And I had him kind of as a collaborator, which, you know, the director, God bless them. They're always so busy, as he was, but he kind of didn't know any better. So he gave me a lot of time. And that was also unique because we had very little money for the wardrobe.

1:01:23And yet I wanted everything to be perfect. And I had so many people work with me, like in workrooms and costume houses. And I was able to build so much. I was able to get exactly what I wanted, every color, every tie, every shirt. But that's a really unique experience because things don't happen like that, the way most films unfold. And so that was really unique. And that's why it was such a – it will always be such a very special project because it was where we were able to do everything that was my dream of collaborating, palette, textures, all of that.

1:02:05In my favorite period, by the way, which I had lived. None of them had. But didn't Adam McKay resist, initially resist, putting Ron Burgundy in a Burgundy suit? Yes. And I think it's because if you're familiar with the humor of Adam McKay, Judd Apatow, they have a very particular kind of not-on-the-nose kind of askew humor that's very intellectual also.

1:02:35And I think in his mind, Burgundy was too on the money. And so we had to see it visually. And I tell the story of how we did it twice, which was a very expensive proposition because we had that huge billboard. And he jumps through it in the brown and then he jumps through it in the Burgundy. And, of course, the Burgundy won. Why were you so certain this suit had to be Burgundy? It just, I don't know, from the time we decided that it was going to be, it's like, he's Ron Burgundy. Like, he's Ron Burgundy, dude, you know?

1:03:08I just watched that film again. It is so funny. It's so beautiful. And it holds up. It really holds up. On the film Idiocracy, you were looking for a shoe that felt futuristic and you found what you described as hideous green plastic shoes with holes in a gardening magazine.

Future clogs on Idiocracy

1:03:28They were called Crocs before they became ubiquitous. What did you see in those shoes that made you think future? First of all, I don't think they were called Crocs. I think they were gardening clogs. And I had been struggling to, I mean, what shoes do you put on people? I mean, in the beginning, it was 1,000 years in the future. It changed to 500 years in the future. But 500 or 1,000. It could have been like 20 years in the future. Yeah, right. Like, what are the shoes going to be?

1:03:59And such an important thing because we had like hundreds and hundreds of people in the film. So I did all kinds of things. I did, you know, boot liners from all over the world, like from every kind of boot. I tried everything. I hired young designers in art school to build certain things that I had thought about. And then one day I was leafing through a gardening catalog and I saw that. And the irony and the synchronicity here is that when I reached out and contacted them, he had like a nephew. We were in Austin, Texas.

1:04:30He had like a nephew working on the film. Something so random. And he said, what are you looking for? I said, well, in my world, the prisoners are in orange. The lawyers are in navy blue. And I went through all the different aspects of society and how I saw their shoes being different colors. And I said, have you ever done those shoes in colors? He said, actually, we're experimenting with it right now. And I said, well, would you be willing to like do what I think I need?

1:05:00And he said, well, I'll try. I should be able to. If I tell you we got boxes the size of this room, like with clogs and all the colors we needed. And I thought it was like raining the ugliest shoes you've ever seen in your life. I was like, I hope I'm right about this. The director was like, how do you know that people don't want to wear these? And I said, well, look at them. They're the ugliest things in the world. Who would ever? Because he was afraid that they might become popular and that it would ruin the joke.

1:05:35So as the movie's going on, the first person that came to me was one of the cooks in the trailer. And he came up to me and he goes, do you think I could have a pair of those? And I was like, what would you want those for? And he goes, well, at night when I hose down the kitchen, I could have them on and my feet, you know, I won't ruin my shoes. And I was like, yeah, sure. By the end of the movie, everybody was asking for a pair of those shoes. And I was like, oh, shit. But Crocs did not launch, I'd say it was a couple years.

1:06:08And when all of a sudden, I remember I was in Hawaii once. I walked by this kiosk and it was like these Crocs were hanging like in every color. And I was like, oh, my God, those are the shoes. And I thought, oh, the director is going to be really mad at me. And then I bumped into him and I said, this was years later. I said, are you mad at me about the Crocs? And he started laughing. He goes, mad at you. It's what the whole world ended up wearing. Like that was the point of our movie.

1:06:39And I was like, oh, I'm so happy because I know you were afraid that like people were going to wear them. He said, yeah, but for all the right reasons. Yeah, but if only that were all that was seeming so similar now. Yeah. I mean, it's amazing how that movie, it's almost like future shock. Oh, it is. And it's terrifying. It's terrifying. Yeah. Let's talk about Dolly Parton. When you began working with Dolly Parton, she brought you to Nashville. She gave you access to her archive, which contained the history of how she'd been dressed for years.

1:07:15What did seeing everything that had already been made help you understand about her? Oh, my God. First of all, I wish we'd had cell phones. I mean, I had no way of documenting anything. Just my brain. And it was so overwhelming and stimulating, like just walking in there and seeing. And I knew I had to go through like every era and look at every single thing. It said, what did it say about her? It said everything.

1:07:46I mean, it started when she was, it was, I don't even know how to explain it. I mean, I think I explain in the book that day when I first met her in Gail's office. I walked in to have the interview and I couldn't breathe because there she was, Dolly Parton, with that hair and that face, in a yellow gingham dress with a full skirt, with her little legs crossed. And those little feet with those six inch heels and the skin on her legs and her body was like porcelain.

1:08:23And I just didn't know if I was going to be able to talk because she just wasn't human. And truthfully, to this day and now that she's gone, I have to say that Dolly had a foot in heaven and a foot on earth. She really wasn't from this planet. Nothing about her. You know, when you meet someone, you can immediately like feel their gender and their, all I could feel was energy.

1:08:57It didn't have a gender. It didn't have an anything. It just had a unbelievable energy. And it wasn't until I started like traveling with her and like walking into photo shoots and stuff, walking behind her as she'd walk into her room and seeing that I wasn't the only one that couldn't breathe, that no one could breathe when Dolly walked into a room. Talk about working with her. What was that like? Just lovely. I mean, my first drawings I did for her, I think I read about it.

1:09:28I didn't know, you know, her body is Dolly's body. So, you know, I mean, everything that had been designed for her, it's like kind of the same, right? It's the same because of the bust and the waist and it's just the way she's shaped. And I'm like, I can't do anything like anyone else. And I saw everything that had been made for her since she was 15. So I wasn't going to repeat any of those things. But what was I going to do? So the first thing I did when I did the drawings, and if you look at my drawings, I did them with Jennifer Aniston hair.

1:10:00I didn't realize that. It was kind of a psychological idea because I wanted to see her seeing herself modernized and how she would respond. And I don't know that she noticed that, but the clothes all looked fresh and new to her because it looked new. And it worked. And she loved everything.

Working with Dolly Parton

1:10:24And I was so lucky in the beginning because she was doing the big Dollywood extravaganza. And I got to make all those costumes. And there were so many. But she had a seamstress that she had worked with for years. And I kept her on to do the building because she, you know, knew Dolly's body really well. But I also had gotten a mannequin made of Dolly's body in my store so that if I needed to fit anything or make anything, because I did make, I made her dress the gold lace dress for her 50th birthday I made in the shop.

1:10:58I made a few things there. After COVID, your criteria for accepting work changed. And you said that your agent now asks, I know you like this person, but do you love them? And if the answer is no, you pass. Was that a scary tactic at first? No. No? It's kind of been my tactic for a while, not just recently after COVID. It's kind of like I have to work with people that I really like because I want to have fun every day.

1:11:32And I want the people that work with me to have fun. I think we spend way too much time away from our loved ones to not have fun. And I certainly was away from my children my whole life. And that's painful. And so when you're at work, I mean, wouldn't it be horrible if while you're at work, it's also painful? So at least if you are joyous at work, you bring joy home. So what do your kids learn? They learn that your mom really loves her job, you know? That's the most important thing. So I can't work for people that I don't like.

1:12:05And I have a particular little group of people that I work for, and my agent knows who those people are. And they'll pop up occasionally like there'll be a producer on a project that she knows I love. And I don't work anymore without taking Gavin, my son, who works with me, and Joe, who's been with me for 25 years. They're like my protectors. And that means that wherever we are in the world, if there is a crew or something that's not up to our level, we know we can handle the show because we have a huge responsibility to the people above us, which I take very seriously.

1:12:41You served as a juror at the Talon Black Knights Film Festival, and it exposed you to 17 films made for under $5 million, many by Tiny Cruise. And you wrote that you came home energized by their intimacy and their humanism. You said you hoped that there was still time in your life to work on stories like those. What are you hoping that those smaller films might ask of you now? Well, it's interesting. I have to really know whether it's a fantasy or a reality.

1:13:15I would love to do it because I was, I don't know, I was starting to feel very sad about the industry. You know, certainly Los Angeles has lost so much work, so many people not working. And so to be in these countries and seeing these films, you know, Sri Lankan films, Mongolian films, Finnish films, German films, with these young filmmakers, some not so young, on these very small budgets, such creative, beautiful ideas.

1:13:48There's like, the movies have so much humanism that sometimes American or Hollywood films don't have the patience for. It's like, they're slower, they're more pensive, they're visually sometimes more interesting. It's sad because we've lost something. And seeing these films was so exciting, knowing that it's very vital. I mean, they're making these films all the time.

1:14:19Jim Stark, my friend, makes these films. So hopefully, Jim, I've never done a film with Jim, but hopefully, you know, we'll spend some time. His partners are in Mexico City, which is where my daughter lives now. And I would love to do something like that and help them tell their stories, their beautiful stories.

Archival art and archaeology

1:14:39For decades now, you've been saving scripts, fitting photographs, research, and design materials from your work. Now you're cutting and shredding and weaving and gluing and painting those archives into a body of art you call my archaeology. As the evidence of your career stops being documentation and becomes material again, has anything become newly visible to you? You know, these paintings were dreams of mine for years while I wasn't painting.

1:15:12I would have these recurring dreams of putting these pieces together from all of the stuff that, you know, my husband didn't understand why I was accumulating all these years and all the storage spaces we had to have. But now everything's in Rhode Island in my studio. I have it all there. And I just feel like it's what happens to all of these things. Like, let me go back a second. A lot of people ask me, like, what's your favorite film that you ever worked on?

1:15:42And I have to go into a film. Every film that I do is my favorite film. When I start a film, I'm 100% into it. So I'm completely covered in it. And so once that experience is over, nothing has any meaning. The script is done. All the pieces, all the research, all those piles of things that you've saved, all the fitting photos, everything has no meaning at all. But I've saved it all because I'm not comfortable with that.

1:16:16Because something that had so much meaning, how could it not have any meaning again? And I was determined for the past 40 years to give meaning to that. So I'm committed to spending the rest of my life regurgitating and recreating and making them into paintings and sculpture and three-dimensional pieces and pieces that have meaning now and are built on the layers of my life. It's threading it all together.

1:16:47Threading it together. Debra McGuire, thank you so much for making so much work that matters. And thank you for joining me today on Design Matters. Thank you. You can read more about Debra in her brand new book, Dressing the Story, or on her website, debbramcguire.com. This is the 21st year we've been podcasting Design Matters, and I'd like to thank you for listening. And remember, we can talk about making a difference, we can make a difference, or we can do both.

1:17:17I'm Debbie Millman, and I look forward to talking with you again soon. Design Matters is produced for the TED Audio Collective by Curtis Fox Productions. The interviews are usually recorded at the Masters in Branding Program at the School of Visual Arts in New York City, the first and longest-running branding program in the world. The Editor-in-Chief of Design Matters Media is Emily Weiland.