Stop Following Trends

Welcome back and new direction

0:00All right, let me just clean off all this dust and cobwebs. What's going on, everybody? Nick here. It has been a while since we've put out a podcast episode. My apologies. But around May when school ended. Yeah, you're bored. I just needed a little bit of a break. I've been doing a lot of work, both online, in class, tutorials, a lot of filming. And I think it was just one of those things to naturally kind of step aside, get a little bit of life in and come back when we were ready to roll. And we are back. So thanks for your patience. I heard from a lot of you. And good to see that you guys are on board with everything we are doing this new year with the podcast.

0:57In this episode, I'm bringing back our most returning guest on the podcast. And that can only be Bill Gardner from Logo Lounge and from Gardner Design. And this year, I tried to do a little something different. Instead of just going through the typical trends and their names and what you've seen, I thought it was a good opportunity to really go a little bit deeper with Bill and find out what he sees, what take he has on branding and graphic design and logo design after another year of looking at 30,000 plus logos.

1:32And to me, it was always about not really looking at the trends to kind of think about, oh, let me take that into my next job. But it was to look at the trends and say, how do we predict what's next? What do we do as designers to kind of push the needle a little bit and do something new and unique, but still familiar? And we've talked about these trends for so many years, but this is the first year we really went deeper in, mostly because of his new book. And his book kind of takes that next step. We look at these trend reports and they're very much a document of what happened, right?

2:06What has he seen in the last year? But this book does a totally different thing. And it analyzes how you as the designer can move into something a little more daring or a little bit more new and actually maybe even create or be a part of the building of a trend in the future. So I hope you guys really enjoy this different conversation with Bill. I definitely did. It was years in the making, and I'm so happy we finally got to do this. Check out all the notes down below as well. Here's my interview with Bill Gardner.

Bill Gardner returns for an annual review

2:35Perfect. Bill, what's going on, man? Welcome back to your 846th visit on the Deeply Graphic Designcast. Have you watched my name into the credits on this show yet? Yeah, you're an honorary co-host at this point. I can deal with that, but you reach such a unique group of individuals and have such a strong bunch of designers you talk to that it's always good to do this. Oh, no, it's great to have you back. And this is kind of our annual look at what you do with the trend reports.

3:05You got a new book out. There's some great stuff to chat about. And I always love having you back because it's like I remember day one, the first time I was ever a part of it with Wes and Mikkel back my first time talking to you. It was interesting because I brought up, I was like, wait a minute, Bill, you bring this stuff up for these are trends just to look at, but not to copy, but to be inspired and to start to make it. And I'm so glad to see that now, like what you're doing with the book and still how you phrase your reports. It's really to give the designer and the creative out there these tools that will help you excel, particularly in the most challenging time it is for our industry, right?

3:42Yeah. And, you know, and you just really hit on a great point, which is and it's part of the reason behind the book. And I didn't want to just jump right into the end of the book. But, you know, when Rockport contacted us about doing the book, the first thing that they did was they said, we'd love for you to do a book on the trends. And I said, you know, I can do that, but, but the best sold by date will expire before the book ever gets published because, you know, trends are trends, you know, they have.

4:15That's why you do reports and they're, and they're PDFs and they're on your website. It's not like published like a book, right? So, you know, when we, when we did the book, I said, let me, let me kind of retool the thinking on this a little bit. So, and we, we ultimately said, you know, it's, and I, and you've heard me say this a million times before. It's more important to know where you've come from than to know where you are. You know, you got to know how you got there. And I said, you know, let's do this. Let's create a book that talks about how we've gotten to this point.

4:49It talks about where we are, but most importantly, it focuses on where we're going to. And it's that we haven't reached the end of time, that things are still changing. And, you know, in 10 years from now, you and I are going to look back at this conversation and we're going to go, can you believe we were still using a mouse back then? Or can you believe that, you know, drinks still came in cans back then or whatever, but design changes too. And I, yeah, that's a big, big point.

Explorers, pioneers, and settlers in design

5:18I want to start with what you had a notable observation at the beginning. You said there are two kinds of designers right now, those leaning forward, testing the edges. I love that phrase, pressing into what's next, and those who are still in follow-on mode, refining and repeating what's already been established. What was it about this year's kind of report that made you want to kind of open with that divide? You know, so keep in mind that the book released it at the same time the report did, just about within a month of each other.

5:52And that I had been so focused this year as I was writing this year's trend report on what I had just published in the book. And in the book, I think we were so focused on this idea, as well as in the report of, you know, in fact, we are designers. We're not just marketers. You know, marketers, somebody gives them something and says, here, go figure out how to sell this.

6:23We're the ones that are literally designing tomorrow. Either that or we're imitating what's already being done. So, you know, break out of what's being done and start creating tomorrow because don't wait for somebody else to design it for you. There's a reason that you're a designer. You design it. You figure it out. And there's a group of people, I think, in both silos that are hanging out there. But the ones that I'm watching are the ones that are out in front of the parade just a little bit.

6:56Yeah. Do you find it hard to incorporate those game changer ones into your trend report? Because your trend report really finds the clusters, right? Yeah. So, like, how are you highlighting or are you finding what is that where like the maybe like the individual shout outs that you put out there? Are those the ones that are really kind of getting to be a game changer or do we have to like start putting a better spotlight on these folks? You know, Nick, that's a really good question and something that I probably don't do a good enough job of is helping people understand amongst those trends.

7:35I usually don't express an opinion, but I have an opinion about which ones are, you know, short lived, which ones are kind of cresting and which ones are going to be with us for a while. And I think that as I start pulling these clusters, as you referred to them, and that's what I call them together, sometimes I get this, you know, big, massive group of them and I'm going, okay, well, that is too much of this. So I know it already exists. But then I get sometimes these, you know, two or three marks that are within this little exploration field that I've kind of going, wow, I'm tantalized by this because it has a little something on there, right?

8:18But this thing is just, you know, it could be that nucleus, it just blows up, you know, and you don't know if it will or not. But it, you know, when you start to see two or three people that are all kind of looking at that same little nuance, you know that that potential is there for it to become explosive. Yeah. What would you say to the person that's finding themselves in that follow camp a little bit too much? And let's be honest, I think we all feel that pressure to be as familiar as things.

8:51You know, the Maya principle, that's like my favorite thing in the world, right? It's like most appropriate yet acceptable, most advanced yet acceptable. So what would you say to the person that's the follower right now? And I'm guilty of it too. What would you, what's the honest thing you would tell them to kind of feel more comfortable to break maybe the rules a little bit? I'm going to, I'm going to catch that this way. I tend to think that there are three stages designers fall in. I think, I think there are explorers, there are pioneers, and there are settlers.

9:25And I think that the explorers are, and a lot of times they are failures, you know, but they're committed to trying out an idea that maybe isn't popular or to discovering something that maybe others haven't tried. But they're usually the ones that find that, you know, those little three logos I was talking about, the explorers, they're the ones that find those. Then there are the pioneers, and the pioneers are the designers that see that little group in there, and they go, you know, maybe not that, but this.

10:00And they, and they play with that nuance that they, that the explorers have kind of discovered. And expand it out just enough that they create a platform that the rest of the design community gloms onto. Yeah. And I call those settlers. And settler, you know, settler, what a crappy term. But it, but it's. I'm settling for it for less, right? It feels like a little. Exactly. It's, you know, well, I guess I can settle for that. I'm, I'm great, you know what I mean? But settler. And so will my client, right?

10:32Like, it's like, yeah, you're right. It's a terrible word. I guess it's okay. Nick said it's okay. You know, the settlers are really the ones that shag an idea into reality. They're the ones that, you know, have taken what the explorers and the pioneers have started, and they're the ones that build this larger floor for the public to start to understand that concept. And it, and it really, it's that, that's when it blows up and everybody sees it. But that floor serves as an important point for the next explorer to launch from.

11:07Yeah. And, you know, so they go, yeah, I'm there. This is working. But man, I'm going to jump out there. So if you're a designer, and that's who we're talking to, I'm willing to bet you're a little bit explorer, a little bit pioneer, a little bit settler, but you've got to determine, you know, which one of those you kind of are spending more time doing. And which is most valuable to you? Yeah. Your clients may not work you be. Yeah. What's more successful for you? You know, you might be that settler, and it's working for the clientele that you attract.

11:41Yeah. This, this, you know, you know, the settler is never, if, if you're just settling, you're, you're never going to be at the front of the parade. You're never going to, you know, be leading the other designers. You may be doing very credible design. But yeah, it, you're, you're not going to be the one that's out there as, you know, the comment was in the trend report on the edge. And, you know, um, that's, does that, does that kind of help settle? Totally.

12:12Yeah. I, I see there's those moments that happen. I had an onboarding with a potential new client the other day, and I was getting the, the idea. They were first expressing how open they are to anything, right? Then we realized because of them dabbling a little bit in some AI stuff before reaching out to designers, they found themselves pretty locked into something already. Yeah. And I figured that was the perfect opportunity to test the waters and be that pioneer on a live call with them and be like, no, I want to test you right now.

12:45Are you open to something that you might not actually like, but your consumer would tear down walls for? And what a great way to say that. Right. Because it's like, I'm getting tired of that, to be honest with you. It's like, you're not going out and buying your product. Your consumer is. And I read that in one article where it said, you might not even like this logo client, you know, but you're not the client. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You're, you're, you're just the orchestrator. You're the, the money up front. You're the idea person that launched this company.

13:17But if your potential client or customer is very different from you, we've got to attract them, not play to your personal preference. Yeah. Yeah. And it was a good conversation after that. And I think if you can't do it at the beginning, you're already behind because the last thing you want to do is launch something. How honest, how honest did you think that client's answer was to you? Because it was great. Sometimes you ask a question like that and they're going, no, no, no. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Then you discover later, they said that we're open.

13:49Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's, it was very honest. In fact, it ended with a quote as something like, you've really opened my eyes to something totally different. And I was like, even if this doesn't happen, I was happy to have that conversation. I love just being that, that kind of a advocate for our, our industry with people to change their perception that particularly as much as I'm using AI and everything. When a client, a non-creative uses it for that thing, there's a bit of a disadvantage. Well, I know we'll talk about that later, but I just thought that was the right time to have that conversation to say, are you willing to be that pioneer with me?

14:27You know, and I think that's, that's part of getting better and better with each person and each client you work with, you know, and I'm sure you guys see it in your own design agency. How do you do that? With Gardner Design, a common thing that you will hear us say is, it's okay if your spouse doesn't like this because your spouse probably isn't your client. And now talk, now just say it to the client. It's not even your spouse anymore. It's you, right?

14:58You might not like it. Here's a little secret. If I say your spouse, I'm actually referring to them. I'm giving them the excuse to put it off on somebody else as opposed to blaming them for it. Good move. Checkmate.

15:15It works. I love that. I love that. Hey, so this year's body of work.

Reviewing 30000 logos and current shifts

15:20So, we do this all the time. I'm assuming over 30,000 that you looked at here, logos? Yeah, close to it. Now, this is an odd year because we're between call for entries on the book. And, of course, that always drives. Book 15 came out, but this year we had a thinner group. It was close to 30,000, though, that we went through. And I think the other thing that's really important to note is that we go through everything that has been publicly announced out there that's a significant brand update or brand change.

15:54So, it's not just logo lounge. Oh, wonderful. Yeah. Oh, absolutely not. No, I mean. Yeah. Too much? Matter of fact, brand new. You know, and Armin does such an incredible job with it. It's always good to go through everything that he's covered. There's any number of other corporate image, so on and so forth, other sites that we go through, taking a look at any announcements and the things that we've covered on logo lounge that are new branding updates and the like.

16:29So, it's not just what's submitted to logo lounge. It's taking a look at everything publicly. Yeah, especially those ones that you're bringing in organically. They've really made a huge, they're so much more visible, right? And the non-designer is now critiquing them in so many ways. So, you've got a lot there. What do you think it's saying about our industry and our culture right now after looking through all this? What was your main thing that this body of work is saying about today? Yeah.

16:59You know, last year I said we were on two buses. One was nostalgic and the other was going to the future. And this year I feel like there is still that hint of nostalgia that people are hanging on to. But, you know, maybe what I'm calling nostalgia, there is a new generation that is looking at a technique that I may have been familiar with from 20 years ago or 30 years ago that they're just discovering for the first time because, man, they weren't born back then.

17:34And, you know, it's kind of like I lived the real one. I've still got the ticket stubbed from when we did that. One of the ones that sticks out to me in that fashion, I think we referred to it as piano, which is, you know, basically an iteration of what Robert Miles Runyon did with the 1984 LA Olympics with the stars in motion. And, you know, it's these stripes that are running through the midst of it that have a stepped kind of element to them as they're coming through to indicate velocity or speed or motion that's happening in there.

18:17But it's kind of like, you know, the remake of a movie that you get a new cast. But the other little thing about any remake that you've watched is you get to the end and they always just trying to change it up a little bit. You know, I mean, you're going, well, that's not the way the original did, you know, and it's the same way with trends. Yeah. Yeah. You know, there's a little bit of a change there. So you get a little bit of nostalgia. I will say that I think that people are still being heavily influenced by what digital is offering up, which is that there's still a lot of gradient that's working on out there.

19:00And I don't necessarily mean gradient in terms of what you might see on an Instagram logo or just a simple wash of, you know, a color that slowly gets lighter. But there's some really intriguing stuff that's going on with gradients still. Oh, yeah. Yeah. A little texture, a little like line pattern, the movement, the animation of a background that's gradient. Yeah, we were talking about Kodo and you want to jump into that or make a kind of setup on that?

19:36I think that would be amazing to show. I want to show this off here and you can tell us a little bit more about it here. I'm going to share this one here.

Branding fields, movement, and gradients

19:43So here we go. Look at that. And that's as you scroll. Yep. Keep in mind that as you look at this, that we're not necessarily talking about a logo, that despite the fact that Logo Lounge is called Logo Lounge, you know, we're talking about branding. And one of the things that we're starting to see and, you know, Kodo is such an amazing group in the first place. But instead of it just being a transition of a color from one thing to the other and pause there for just a second, because this is an example they give of, you know, taking an image.

20:22And if you hone in on this at any one point, as Kodo does, as part of the production, you may just think it's a gradient or a ramp from, you know, orange to yellow or blue to violet or something like that. But then you start to back off and you start to realize, okay, well, this is imagery, you know, that we're actually being able to convey not just texture and not just a field of transparency, but we're also looking at the imagery, which is going to convey an additional message. And they even blended in digitally with this kind of concentric line filter, if you will, that comes out of it.

21:00But there are so many companies, so many brands that are starting to embrace a specific, much is this, a specific look that is representative of them that operates in a field. And I always talk about field because, you know, we live on this thing that, you know, we live on our phone and there's not that much room for a logo on there. But man, you can sure cover that with, you know, pattern and texture and color, so on and so forth.

21:34And I, so that, yeah, I just love this. Just gorgeous. You know, you, you look at any of this and it's part of the brand vocabulary for, you know, massive music and you recognize immediately who it belongs to, not because of the logo, but because of the other assets that they've developed that work in companionship. Yeah, I love that you said it's like they're behaving, they're flexing, it's pulsing a little bit, right? Like, and it's adapting in there.

22:05Like, this is such a good thing for the designer who is struggling to say, like, you know, I can't land this next thing or I've had a lot of no's. Like, what I would, I would almost go to say, like, you should be testing the waters and doing some of this stuff just to show a potential client that this is in your capabilities, right? Like, oh, yeah, I would, I would say this would be an amazing thing to throw into an existing, maybe something that's already in your portfolio and add it to the work you've already done for someone. Yep.

Even if it didn't exist, you know? You know, there, there are, um, a handful of designers that really have the ability to, uh, to, to code and to animate and, uh, work in motion graphics and, uh, be, be, uh, strong, uh, in positive, negative design and what we might've referred to as analog design.

22:59But yeah, anymore, it's teamwork and you're, you're getting to that point where you've got those people that are specialists in each of these areas that have to work in combination in order to really develop these brands that are as exotic as they are. And there is a robust as they are. And, um, I, you know, uh, I, I feel more and more sorry, I think for that individual who is trying to do it all, because honestly, there is so much. Life anymore to a strong brand that, you know, it takes somebody with just massive, uh, you know, God skills to pull it off.

23:39Yeah. That's a great point too, because what I've been saying to a lot of younger designers or any of my students is this idea that just a few years from now, I feel like most creatives, we're not even like designers, even selling ourselves short. We're, we're going to be a conductor of all things that a client, a brand might work for, you know, great way to say it. And, you know, um, and in fact that, that, you know, your idea of a conductor of it, you know, it brings things into harmony and, you know, uh, everything into this kind of symphonic fashion.

Expanding brand design beyond the visual

24:13Um, but as I start to think about, you know, where, where brands are going and again, that going back to iconic branding and the, and the book and kind of where it's talking about, think about what a brand really is. Oh yeah. It's, you know, and no, it's not a logo, uh, you know, a brand is whatever that trigger is, that it helps you to recall what your feelings are about a product or to establish those feelings.

24:44And I say product, it could be an entity, it could be an organization, it could be whatever. Yeah. So think about all those ways that we are triggered. And I know the trigger is a bad word in some ways, but, but, but in fact, it's what we do. Um, yeah, we are here to, uh, help people remember things and help people learn things. And that visually, you know, um, there was a study that was done where they asked people if they had to lose one of their senses, which one would they least like to lose?

25:16And about 80% of the responses said sight. I don't want to lose my sight. You know? Yeah. I thought that all the time. How incredible. That's always it. You know? I mean, okay. Sound and everything else is so important. I can't hear things, but yeah. You know, it's, so that's why visuals will always lead, I think, in the design field. But that doesn't mean that that's the extent of it. You know, as we start to think about our, our five senses that we've got.

25:47Yeah. I want you to think about this for just a second. I'm, I'm, I'm going to push you way out there for just a minute and have you think about this. So you can imagine all the ways that we could, you know, deal with branding via aroma. And it's been done. Yeah. Uh, via, uh, touch, you know, having a unique feel to your product or, or whatever, um, uh, the sound, you know, uh, Masonic logo. I mean, all of this is important and, and, and it's part of thinking through expanding out a brand.

26:20We are affected by barometric pressure.

26:25Quinn, when, when, when the weather changes, it affects our moods. It affects our attitudes. Which one of our senses is affected by barometric pressure?

26:38When, when, when, when, when the temperature goes up, which one of our senses is affected by that? If you take a drug, which one of your senses is affected by that? If you are emotionally distraught over something, which one of your senses is? So, I mean, there are all of these other senses, which are called puppet senses that we've got. And there are ways to address those through, um, our, our branding as we start thinking about other ways that we affect people.

27:16Um, and you know, as, as you start to think about the future, I, I just push you there because maybe we don't know how we're going to get there yet. But, no, we don't, but by imagining it out there, it's the, you know, it's the flip phone on Star Trek, you know, that turns into a real, a real phone. It's, it's starting to have an idea of what the future could be that lets you start thinking about, well, how would I get there? What would I do? How would I make somebody think, uh, about my product if I could affect, um, them through, uh, temperature or, you know, any one of these things.

27:52So, I mean, it's, it's trying to push you outside of your comfort zone of these are the things that I know I can play with because there are other things you can play with. Yeah. It's almost, and then like forecasting what, what could come out of all this with us being so screen and so kind of in this space that's so limited. And one thing I keep hearing a lot of is the, the, the resurgence of in real life experience and away from screen things and stuff like that. And like, you know, but to promote it and to get the word out, it has to be this screen-based thing.

28:27That's where we're getting the information. But then what do we do once we have it? Are we going more to real life situations, back to concerts, back to experiences, expos? It's like, it's, it's kind of neat to see that that's a reassertion. All of that is true. Um, and you know, it's, and we've talked many times about pendulums, uh, pendulums swinging back. But in fact, is this where you're going to get that information? So, yeah, you're right. What, is there another way? You know, um, we don't know because I mean, go, go, go back to when that, you know, that little

29:04hand device is your partner, uh, kind of came out, you know, we, we, we, 10 years before that, we didn't see it. Yeah. 10 years after that, you know, are we going to look back and be laughing about the thing that we were lugging around these little palms with us? Yeah. It's going to show up right here on my, uh, eyeglass screen, you know, notification.

29:26That's where it's, that's where it seems like it's going. We had a conversation with somebody about, um, the metaverse and a, and AR and, uh, the likes, and we were kind of going, yeah, did that kind of go away? Yeah. It never came. I don't think. Did it launch? Did it, you know, are we, are we going to do that? Or is Oculus still a thing? Is it, you know, and I'm kind of going, you know, here we were going, you know, this is the future. And now we're kind of going, well, I'm not, I'm not sure the bus got here, you know?

29:57Yeah, it never did. And I feel like it's an instant revolt because it's kind of like now to see what everyone's doing instead of the closed kind of thing where I'm not seeing anything, but what's being presented to me now it's the, give it through my lens so I can have, I could be in a real world and get that notification or that certain thing. And I feel like that's where everyone would be a little bit more open and welcome to it. I, I tried the Oculus thing. I, I played with it for a bit, but it is such an isolated thing. And coming after 2020, the last thing you want to do is be in your, in your house, in

30:30your room with this and zero human connection. That's a really backwards insight that what, what a perception. And, you know, I mean, we've got to think about those things in society that are happening and how they're influencing the way that we think about the products that we're creating, you know, what we put for people out there. Yep. Let's change gears.

The prominence of green and neon colors

30:50What did you see in color that you thought was a trend or related to where we're at culturally this moment? You know, so holy shit, was there a lot of green this year? And I'm guilty. You know, I, I don't, it, it's not like somebody put out a memo. Uh, so don't feel guilty about it. It was just a matter of, you know, that, that happened. I, I will also tell you, green, um, and green was all over in different places.

31:21Um, it was interesting to see green, uh, kind of moving towards all of our avocado in some areas. It was moving towards kind of a, uh, chartreuse in a lot of areas or a, you know, uh, uh, a yellow green that wasn't the fluorescent that we've become accustomed to. Um, there was a lot of, uh, frankly, uh, purple and yellow, uh, were also that green swerved over into yellow sometimes, um, and just some yellow, uh, violet as well, but, um, uh, but

31:54green in particular, uh, you know, and you, you make the assumption that, gee, it must be because, you know, um, organic or natural or, or whatever, but we, we'd been through 20 years ago, we were saying green, green washing is done, right? Like now it's like, let's go to electric green. And honestly, the green was happening on a lot of things that had absolutely nothing to do with, you know, environment or, you know, it was just popular color. Yeah. I'm looking at my screen right now and I can see three or four buttons or highlights in

32:27my dashboard of this software that are in that green, because I feel like it's the attention grabbing solution to me. What I saw stand out were things that were equivalent to a highlighter, right? The neon green, the neon fuchsia, you know, the neon, those things that they're, that was the whole reason those colors were chosen highlight, put a spotlight on it. And in this crowded space, how else are you going to do that? Well, and you just touched on a delivery device, which is that, you know, when you're living

32:59in a CMYK world, you can't show fluorescence that when you are living in an RGB world, you know, uh, those, uh, neon crayons are really easy to play with, uh, you know, you can, you can punch out that way. And when, uh, you start to establish your visual vocabulary and you've got this color palette and you've got those neon colors that are happening, you can't live in a print world. You know, you've, you've got a pretty much, you can, but you, you really need to pretty

33:31much live in a digital environment. And those are the companies that are, you know, kind of focusing in on it and, you know, and not too much of it. I, I think where we do see it, it's a spark, you know, um, to allow a palette that otherwise might kind of be, uh, living under aliases to pop out and be noticed. So, yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. I, I, I, I love the fact that like those little things, those little things that we could see with color really do. Like, I remember we had one where the client insisted they wanted that neonish green in

34:04there. And I put the disclaimer everywhere that this will not print the way you want it, unless you do the fifth color, you know, a custom PMS. Yeah. And Oh yeah, sure, sure. Whatever that means. And then I was like, well, maybe I'm not connecting the financial part of this, that that's everything you print, it'd be incredibly difficult and boy, they were fine with everybody's going to be able to print the fifth. Yeah. And then came the first trade show and the banners came out and the green look like crap.

34:29I was like, I told you like, you know, they, so again, I think the designers have to play the responsible liaison there and, and make sure you're explaining. Yes, you can have it all digitally and on screen, but it's a whole other world when it comes to that. And if the pendulum swing means we're going to get back more into this stuff and print and real life stuff. And I want something in my hand for my brand. Right. You gotta, you gotta set them up for that. You know, I suspect that, um, we are probably going to, uh, start shifting back towards some

35:02duller colors, frankly. Yeah. I, you know, it's food and beverage space. I see that a lot. I had the pendulum swing, but I, I, I'm seeing things that are starting to desaturate, um, more and more, uh, out there, but you know, the, the, the, the thing about color is that, um, uh, color is a, my, I'm going to, I'm going to share a story that's going to date me. Um, my wife is an interior architect and, uh, when, uh, uh, I was first starting out in

35:38my business and we were first married, mauve was a color that was, you know, um, it was everywhere and it had been heavily invested in. And if you walked into somebody's offices, this kind of, uh, sad, violet, rosy, peachy kind of mishmash of a color was great down with their, yeah, but it was very popular. But one of the things that she pointed out to me was that, you know, a color, once it

36:11starts to get adopted within the product industry or within the interiors industry that you're talking about capital expenditures on that color that may have to, you know, um, ride out a 10 or a 15 year duration. So sometimes if a color reaches that level of, uh, you know, uh, Ubiquity, it has to be, uh, something that, uh, is going to have legs for that period of time, whether people continue

36:44to like it in 10 or 15 years is a different story. But it's still going to be around. And if you, if you use that frame of mind, as you start to think about colors, um, you know, it, it's not easy for an entity to change its color. Um, that, that's one of those brand assets that is probably the most, um, in the most important when you really start to think about how people quickly recognize an industry.

37:15So you can think about, I'm going to deliver the yellow a little bit different, but I can't change it from yellow to blue. I, you know, if we're committed to yellow, um, it's just, you know, there you go. There you go.

Designing a book on the history of trends

37:31Let's talk about the book. So wholly, totally different from your trend book. You've got a whole new real book. That is, I almost feel like this is cool. What I saw was that the trend reports, they're going to tell you what paths have been like worn in. Right. Yep. But your book seems to be asking like this harder question. How can you stop following the paths and start making them a bit more? Tell us about it. What inspired you to do it? And what do you hope it's like doing to counterbalance everything else you're doing?

38:02One, one, one, one, one of the first things is, and that's the book is we did this really great cover. Um, I will tell you that it's got this holographic foil on the front cover and though it's not necessarily showing up here, everybody has had more fun photographing that book, trying to see who can out do somebody else on the amount of rainbow they get casting off the things on and so forth. Fully intentional, right, Bill? That was by design. You know, I wish I could, you know, when I talk about that two year thing about we're

38:35going to look back in 10 years, we're going to look back in 10 years and go, God, can you believe he did that thing back in 2026 back when holographic foil was a deal? What a sucker for trends that Bill is. And he needs double court. But, you know, so, um, yeah, I started to talk about, uh, when Rockport came to us and what they were originally hoping for. And one of the things that, uh, really kind of, I think sets the book aside and one of the things that has been getting a lot of comments from people is that it's broken into

39:07little sections, which are pretty easy to absorb. Um, but the front half of it is really kind of broken down by decades, starting out in 1960 and going up through the current decade, kind of talking about what the influences were in society that affected our design and that they are, uh, synonymous with each other. You can't separate, you know, what's going on in society from our design because we influence

39:39it and it influences us and it helped to set the pattern for people so that they could start to see, okay, if I start to take a look at things that are going on aside from design right now, what are those things that are going to influence design? And this is how former designers looked at them in order to come up with the trend setting design that they did. How do I need to look at things in order to set up those in the future?

40:10There is a area of the book, which is pretty significant that really kind of breaks down, um, maybe about, uh, 20 to 30 different, uh, directions that we have gone in design, um, that are always going to be there that are always going to be, you know, using animals in design. Uh, using gradients in design, using transparencies in design and breaking each one of those down

40:40into subcategories of, you know, here's somebody that's been working with, uh, transparencies or just a simple one-on-one or a one color or transparencies that have dimensionality to them or transparencies that have dimensionality plus a glassine effect or, you know, and it breaks down each one and what it connotes to people and how they were done and shows major examples of each one of them being used and tell some good behind the scenes story about how things came up the way they did.

41:11Um, there's a section in there talking about the Instagram logo and the fact that, you know, uh, there, there were so many people upset and convinced that Instagram was going to fail when it moved away from its skeomorphic Polaroid camera and, you know, damn that gradient, they're never going to be able to reproduce it. Well, Hey, Instagram lives on a digital device. So, you know, they have no concern about what they can produce or not produce. Um, but then it jumps to the future and there are some really exceptional design firms that

41:44I think have done a major job of being the leaders and they're, they're through a lot of them are in Europe. Um, uh, there are some in the U S or a bunch in Italy. There's some in Poland that we've really focused in on how they think about design, which is different than you or I may think that has led them to some solutions that are, um, totally unexpected, um, and kind of pushes the envelope.

42:15What's their secret sauce? What do you see there? Cause I, I'm familiar with having a agency when we, back in the day, we had a London office and I, anytime I got to go there, it was a, it was like a whole other approach, but I feel like that's in their DNA. What did you see that was like making these things that were a little bit more, it sounds like more pioneering, right? Rather than settling.

International influences and global typography

42:37Okay.

International influences and global typography

42:38So, um, we're, we're in America, right? Yes. Um, and I'm positive that there are people that are going to be listening to this podcast that are in other countries. Oh yeah. There's a lot of Americans too.

42:53We, we're, we're, we're sniffing our own body odor here. Um, we, you know, uh, to, to a degree, I think that despite the international aspect of, gee, we can look at anybody's design anywhere in the world, we live within a Petri dish of design that has been crafted here. Yeah. And we are dramatically influenced to buy it. Um, you, if somebody tells you they aren't, they're lying to you because they just don't recognize that they've been sniffing it so long.

43:25Um, sure. I think that, you know, we, and, and we know this to be true of social media too. You know, I mean, what, what you look at is fed to you because it's your preference. And, uh, it's, it, I think to some degree is pretty much true of a lot of design that goes on here. I think that the more international we are, the more that we take a look at other cultures and allow them to, uh, influence our thinking, uh, the more open we are going to be to the

43:58introduction of new things. Um, you know, I'll, here's an observation I made last week and I, and I shared with you that I was in Taiwan, uh, last week. Um, as I'm, as I'm, uh, going from the airport in, into Taipei, um, I'm looking up at the top of buildings and I'm seeing these for, for lack of a better description, big, long neon tubes that are crossing over each other that are lit up, uh, that are up in there.

44:31And I'm realizing, uh, those aren't just big old tubes. Those are kanji characters. That's spelling out that that's a sign. This isn't just this graphic thing up on top of this building. This is a sign and this, and to somebody who's, uh, can read Chinese and speaks Chinese that, you know, says to them, uh, welcome and home and stay, which is, you know, these, three characters that kind of indicate hotel instead of a single word that says hotel.

45:03Nice. You know, um, and it's, it's a, it's an entirely different way of looking at communicating, obviously. Um, so we've got to realize that we don't just live in this. And I, I don't think I'm telling anything, anybody they don't already know, but, but I'm trying to make you present and, you know, intentionally think about this. Um, the world doesn't live like you and I live, um, you know, that other people, other

45:33cultures are going to be introducing things that are natural to them, but seem very arcane to us or seem very futuristic to us. So, um, uh, we, we, we are a product of our society. And I think the more that you spend time taking a look at other cultures and what they're doing, uh, the better you are. Yeah. It's a bigger palette to deal from. There's, there's proof in that. Like you, any like close designer friend of mine makes their first trip out of the country.

46:07What are they taking pictures of signage logos, you know, like graphic design going, look at this. Oh, look at this sign or whatever. And it's so true. Cause it's like our own bubble. Even when you research and you go, like you said, you do your research online or whatever, that's still being delivered to you based on your algorithm and everything else and the stuff that you tend to look for. And maybe that's a great call to action bill is this idea to be like, make it a conscious effort to look in international market. I know with packaging and branding that comes very naturally.

46:39And I think a lot of the excitement comes from a brand that might be doing something totally different overseas. And thankfully you get that exposure, but if it ain't happening naturally, you're going to have to start going out there and looking at for it. Because I think that's a, that's a, that's a really great little like hidden gem that you could bring to one of your clients or someone you're working for to say, hasn't been done here yet. You want to be advanced, but still acceptable. Here's a cool solution. You know, there's a, um, um, I'll mention a couple of firms, Tofu, um, uh, anti, A-N-T-I,

47:13um, out of, uh, uh, Poland, I believe did a really wonderful, um, uh, design. I hope I'm not miscrediting this for a, uh, designer, um, who does some, uh, a highly, um, haute cojure design that is almost theatrical. And they created this, uh, series of what look almost like, uh, little sewing pins that

47:44are laid across each other that are just made out of mercury and dripping this mercury, you know, and the, the, you can, you can tell that the light's modulating over the top of the mercury on this. And it almost looks like a crown of thorns, uh, for this woman, this designer, which, which replicates some of her design work, but that's her logo. And, and it spells out her initials, which are KK. And I, and I, and I was sitting there looking at it and I was going, holy crap. You know, you, I, I have no idea how I would print that, you know, back to our conversation

48:18about RGB versus CMYK, but I'm going, yeah, this is just, you know, totally, um, uh, lateral thinking about, you know, how we're going to introduce this individual and her products with a design that really speaks to them, but is unlike anything that we've seen before. Um, and again, just, you know, opening yourself up to, to these kinds of things, as opposed to that, that beautiful little flat logo that you've been designing, which, you know, I love

48:50it as much as you do, but frankly, you know, we're, we're at that point where you've got to be thinking about other things that, um, aren't currently on your palette of comfort. Yeah. Because if you're comfortable with it, you're going to continue to create the same thing. Oh yeah. I keep thinking we look at it as these like circles, but if you look at it as a sphere, something more depth, I mean, like you've got to go a little deeper or how does your, your brand's going to not just live flat.

49:21It's going to live in this thing that has to move, has to have sound. It's got all, so these little, I feel like there's all these little things. I know for me as a designer too, what, what, what AI seems to do that I feel is the advantage is it's allowing me to take my work, my original work, my original stuff and adapt, bend, move, change it because I don't have time to learn maybe a 3d software or a motion design thing, but what it can do is answer that call here.

49:51We've all, we've been talking about is move the needle, dude. What are you doing to kind of give your client and in that service more personality, more of it, you know, all of these traits. That's where I see us moving to, you know, in the future.

Leading the parade without getting too far ahead

50:05It seems like this whole conversation has been geared towards this idea of kind of pushing us out of our comfort zone and full scope. It's, it's one thing to say that, but it's a second thing to be intentional about getting out of your comfort zone. And, uh, you know, if anything, I, I just suggest to designers, look at what you've been doing and you, you may be, uh, just incredibly comfortable with what you've been doing and your client may

50:38love it. And, you know, God bless you. And maybe that's, that's the extent of where you go, but if you want to be amongst those people that people are looking at kind of going, Oh man, I wish I was doing that. Then dammit, go do it. Don't just wish that you could do that. Go do it. Yeah, you can. And that's the thing. I'm more confident with things that I can say yes to now. Yeah. As opposed to even two or three years ago, I would be like, let me check.

51:09Do I know someone that could do that? But now I almost feel like, like, again, going back to that conductor mentality, I think us as orchestrators, us as like, I am your, I'm your point person, whatever you need creative. Yeah. We're going to be able to do it. And so like, that's where I see, do you see, lastly, do you see that kind of where we are as our future of anybody in this industry? What's, what's the five-year plan to that person right now that we were talking about that maybe needs to stretch, find more inspiration, build more confidence.

51:40What would you tell them? Yeah. Um, I'm, I'm going to work with this, which is that, and I've, and I've, I have shared this before, but I'm, I'm, I'm going to try and do it with a fresh face for a minute. But ultimately anything that we create, the consumer has to have some connection to or understand you, you can't just create, um, let, let's imagine for just a minute that we can jump forward 10 years and we can go grab something that's going on 10 years from

52:15now and bring it back and introduce it today. Um, it will be a failure.

52:23It wasn't, yeah, yeah. It will be a failure because the consumer doesn't have a pathway from now to then.

52:35Think, think, think of it this way. We, we introduce new icons all the time. Um, if, um, that little three line hamburger up there in the corner of your, you know, website, um, if some, the, if somebody just stuck that up there and the world wasn't familiar with it, you know, it's kind of like there's a learning curve in there to understand what that means. Think about, we are as Americans, I will say the, we notoriously are continually playing

53:05with the language and developing new words and new things. If I jump forward, I might grab a word that we don't even, we haven't even created yet or, or, uh, you know, or an activity where the, uh, like that takes on a whole new meeting five years from now. So the reason I'm, the reason I'm walking you through this exercise is because you, you have to get to where you're going, but you can lead people there. But if you get so far ahead of it, I'll, I'll sometimes use the idea of you don't have to

53:40be way out in front of the parade to lead the parade. You need to be a few steps ahead. But if you get too far out there, the band doesn't know where they're supposed to march. They don't, they don't, they don't know where they're being led. So when, when we create, we need to understand that the consumer has to come along with us to get there. And you stay just ahead of the consumer on the deal. You can't get so far out there with what you're doing that they're just looking at it going, are they just goofing nuts?

54:11You, you've got to, you've got to have them buy into it as you move along. But, you know, so you talk about that five-year plan. Don't think that you're going to leap five years tomorrow. All you have to do is intentionally get ahead of what you're doing today. And it's going to lead to where we're going. You know, I'll, I'll, I'll kind of close with this. Um, so, uh, Steve Jobs had this really wonderful quote.

54:43He said, you can't connect the dots by looking forward. He says, you can only connect the dots by looking backwards.

54:54So you have to trust that the dots are going to connect in your future. So don't look back there for your future. Look out there and just trust that the dots are going to connect, but you've got to connect them. Love it.

Logo Lounge membership and closing thoughts

55:12That was great. Bill, thank you so much again. Love having you. I love this change. I, I really look at what our viewers talk about and everything. And I think they wanted more of this, the reports there. We have it in the show notes here. It's on logo lounge. Browse it. And I think it's, it's that thing you got to look at individually. You know what I mean? And rather than just review them, I wanted to dig deeper into a lot of this conversation because it is huge changing times. Yep. Plus you've made this big adaption with the book. And I feel like that's such a great way to look and say like, how are we making the path

55:44instead of following it? Yeah. And that's the answer. I've been just waiting to see someone tackle for a long time. So kudos to you, bro. I appreciate that. Don't, don't, uh, don't hesitate to, as you're looking at the trends on logo lounge, buy a membership. It's still only a hundred dollars a year. And I will swear it, you know, with, uh, close to half a million logos by more than 20,000 designers that have been uploaded to the site. It is one of the most searchable, one of the, one, one of the best investments you can

56:17make in order to be able to see where design is going and to get influence on the design work that you're doing is logos. Uh, so nice. Yeah. There's nothing better. Thank you. Nothing better. And I'll have the link to the book and everything else as well in there. So again, bro, thank you for taking the time. I'm glad we were able to schedule this so quickly. Thank you. It's stuff everybody wants to hear. I hit up Nick yesterday and say, Hey, are we going to do it? And he said, yep. How are you tomorrow?

56:48I'm always ready for you, Nick. Oh, same. Vice versa, man. Thanks again. And hopefully we'll have one of these, uh, moments in Wichita or in LA. I would love that. Let's find you. All these years. All I just thought of it, man, all these years, you're the one person I don't think technically met in person that I know so well. So, uh, we're going to have to change that in the next year, man. Let's make a promise. Thank you, buddy. Okay. All right. Thanks, man. If this conversation helped you think a little longer term about your creative career, hit

57:20like, and subscribe. It helps more than you think. And if you know a creative who's trying to figure out their next move, share this with them. That's how we get this community to grow. Thanks.