Confidence Is Earned | With Patrick Carter

Welcome and introductions

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0:30From the studio that brought you WandaVision. I was an Avenger, but I'm not a hero anymore.

0:37The Vision returns for the final chapter of the groundbreaking trilogy. That family wasn't real. You sure about that? I had a father called Vision. How is this possible? Don't miss the two-episode premiere of Marvel Television's Vision Quest. Nothing bonds a family together quite like Mortal Jeopardy. Now streaming on Disney+. We're recording, dude.

1:12All right, Patrick. Dude, welcome to the podcast, bro. I'm so glad you're here. Say hello to everybody. Tell everybody a little bit about yourself before we get into it, man. Hey, Nick. Thanks for having me. I just met Nick at the crop field trip in Cleveland, and it was really cool. He put on a great, not really a roundtable, but just an open discussion with everybody, and it really got people talking, and it was really nice. We had a conversation afterwards and noticed a lot of similarities between us or just experiences that we have running similar types of business in the creative industry.

1:43There's a lot of different channels in the creative industry, and we're kind of doing a similar thing with working with clients and creative projects.

Starting 63 Visual

1:51But, yeah, so my name is Patrick Carter. I'm the creative director of 63 Visual in Jacksonville Beach, Florida. I've been in business going on 17 years now with my design studio. I came from, like, the advertising agency world, which I think is really, if you want to work on your own, it's one of the best ways to do it because you kind of see, like, how a company, like, how they price things, how they make money, you know, how to work with vendors and printers and all that type of thing, working with teams. And then, you know, once I had done that for a few years, I guess I was with the agency world probably about six years, and it was always my goal to work on my own, to have my own studio long term.

2:30But I also knew that before I did that, I wanted to see what it's really like to work with people with more experience and learn from them. So I saw a lot, like, the good things, like how to make money, how to price things, how to get clients, how to do sales. But also I saw so much that was not good, like, about the agency world. I mean, there's just, there's so much about the inefficiencies that happen, all the employees, all the client touch points. You've got account executives that talk to the client, and they relay that to the traffic and production manager, and that goes to the art director, and then eventually there's, like, a junior designer or an intern working on it.

3:04And that's frustrating for them, too, because they're, like, entry level, and then they're trying to get this telephone game from people that have taught the client, like, five touch points ago. And then they come back with something, and then the account executive's like, oh, this isn't it. We've got to redo it. Or they don't explain to the client, like, what your creative process and that was. So my strategy with starting 63 Visual was to bring more of a direct approach where, so someone like us that can deal with, like, client services and do the creative, it makes it much easier on both sides of the table because the client is able to communicate directly with what they need, and then we're able to talk to them and really mine out of them, like, what it is that they're looking for, what's going to be best solution for their project.

3:45Yeah. So that's worked really well. You know, I mean, I have some employees that do technology for me, but what's nice also is that I'm from Neptune Beach, Florida, which is like Jacksonville. My office is in Jacksonville Beach, Florida. Been here my whole life. Like I mentioned earlier about being involved with AIJ Jacksonville, being involved with agencies and kind of knowing who's who as far as people that are in the creative industry here. So over that time, I was able to make a lot of contacts, meet people that are creative, but also people that use creative services.

4:15So being in business almost 17 years, it's over that time kind of built up like a book of business, basically, where people come back and have good clients and also realize you'll work with some not go so good ones and be like, okay, well, they can kind of go their way. And I'm going to kind of just refine the client list and all that. So at this point, it's nice to have like a good book of business with good clients, people I know, people that trust me over that period of time, which is how some of the best creative happens. You know, like having a client for 10 years, they come to me and say, hey, we're going to redesign our menu for a restaurant.

4:47Like you don't have to ask them any questions. Like I know the whole menu. Like I eat there. Like I don't know all about it. Don't get rid of this one. Right. Yeah. Right. Right. Exactly. So, but yeah, that's, that's a little bit about me. I've got, I've got two kids here in Neptune beach. It's a great place. Great weather, great place to raise a family. You know, I do a lot of surfing, jujitsu, you know, just staying active. And that's other stuff that I think we'll probably talk about as well is like, you know, of course, the life work balance type of thing and, and, you know, making time to do the work that's necessary, but also enjoy life and do other things that kind of help you with that creative burnout.

Lessons from agency life

5:20So, yeah, you, you, you really do fit a good mold because like so many of the folks that I think listen to us and have been a part of the podcast for so many years, they want to hear those stories of when you get to that thing, all the stuff prior to that, maybe the heartaches, the, the, the pitfalls, whatever it were really do pay off at the end. Right. Like all those lessons you learned working for somebody else. And that's, that's my track record as well. I love the fact that like, if I had done my own business or any earlier, it probably would have failed. Right. Cause I want to know all those ins and outs of working with bigger companies and bigger clients.

5:52So when it was you, you're kind of like going, Oh, I I've been here before, but now it's a hundred percent me. And I'm, I'm feeling that confidence. And one of the things I dug when we chatted and particularly when we did our, uh, our like open kind of talk with everybody, it was about 50 creatives. And we were talking about great topics that just, you know, we don't get a chance too much. And you really stood out because you had this like common sense kind of perception and everything you kind of threw out there was this like almost no holes barred kind of like, this is how it's, this is how I do it.

6:23And you were, the confidence you had, I thought was so cool. And I went, yeah, we gotta, we gotta put a bookmark on this and continue the conversation. Cause I love spreading the word with people that have that kind of mentality when it comes to being in this business. Cause all I keep hearing is how difficult it is or this or whatever. And the more people that can share good news, good vibes, good business sense, I think really work for us. You know what I mean? Yeah, absolutely. There's a lot of frustrations that you deal with. And as a younger designer, you kind of get discouraged and be like, this isn't for me.

6:54You know, let me go back to, you know, do it, want to do whatever else. Cause it can be frustrating, but you, you also have to look at it. Like if you're really passionate about it, it's like, it's worth it. It's worth the frustrations and the complications. And as you get older, you become to more senior level, you, you want to minimize those frustrations and complications. They'll always be there. Of course. But, but it's important to be like an optimist and say, Hey, look, you know, like that wasn't great. Or, uh, this, this project went sideways and it turned out really ugly and not what I wanted, but the client was happy. And yeah, it's like, well, you know what?

7:25It's, I love what I do. So let's go back onto the next thing. You know, there's like a new boss every 15 minutes. There's a new, there's a new client every 15 minutes. And you can say, all right, well, that wasn't the best. I got paid. Good. Move on to the next thing. Yeah. You could tell someone all the mistakes that things happen in your past and how you, how you pivoted, how you maybe changed your agreement or how you changed your onboarding. But those stories, you could tell someone that a hundred times, but until they go through it, I think that's when you really, really understand where those work. Even the, like sometimes we were just talking about my favorite client that I have.

7:57And I was sitting there going like, you know, we, we learned a lot, but again, those are so rewarding in so many ways because I didn't learn anything about it. It was all the learning prior to that made it, I think, and such a good relationship with them and everything. So first question for you. So it's almost 17 years, right? You've been kind of in this zone. Are there anything that you, is there anything you're not caring about the way you maybe did when you first started that you, that really overtook maybe a lot of your time? Like you've just figured it out and those there's two to three things that maybe you're just

8:32not caring about any longer because it's worked out.

New business and getting fired

8:35Okay. Absolutely. There, there's a few things. And, and over that period of time, of course, things, um, they're always changing. Um, they're, they're morphing into a better, more efficient approach, things that work, things that didn't. One, I would say for sure, from when I started was, is like new business acquisition. Uh, so, and, and I kind of started out talking about that, about how, you know, over time you kind of like build your book of business to what's good. And, and, and then you also have a reputation and those clients tell somebody and then referrals come in when I first started.

9:07So I worked for three different agencies when I first started and during that period, being involved with AIGA, doing freelance work, kind of figuring out how to set up my bookkeeping, all the little stuff that you really need to just jump out of the gate and start doing your own thing. Um, when I worked, when I was doing that and the last agency I worked for, this is crazy, but I got fired. It was the first time I've ever been fired in my life. And what it really came down to is that me, it was every agency I worked for was like a small agency, like seven to eight people. Yeah. Like a boutique type, uh, advertising, full service advertising agency.

9:39And I worked for the first one as when I was an intern, I started working there. Um, and then just really just was passionate, just busted my ass, like did a great job. You know, I remember when I went in there, they're like, we're not offering a, I had a great, good portfolio from school. They're like, we're not offering a paid internship. Well, I live at the beach. This is in downtown Jacksonville. I'm like, and I was flat broke. And I'm like, well, I need like $6 an hour so I can get gas, you know? And they agreed to that. But when I came in there, it was like an eight week internship or something like that, but I was doing billable work, like right out of the gate.

10:09So I was able to start working with them. And then after that, um, there was a really cool, like boutique agency at the beach that was working out of a beach house that I really tried to get that job. And I got that job and that really taught me the most about how to become a designer and how to work independently. Because when I worked there, I'll never forget it. We were like at our traffic meeting, like the first week I was there. And, uh, my boss, the creative director is like, I need you to call this printer, get specs for this. I need you to call this client and do this. And I was like, Whoa, it was like, I'm an art director.

10:40It's not my job. And he's like, well, it is now, you know, you either do this so you don't work here type of thing. So, and then I started doing it. I'm like, this isn't that hard. You know, it's scary when you start doing that. And it was like, okay, well, and I was tracking my time doing all that stuff. So I was like, I can just do this on my own. The last thing you see, I worked for at that point, I was like, it was really a web focused brand agency. And I was like, I want to build my web. You know, I was like looking at how can I develop myself? Started over there. I was there for about 10 months and we did not get along. It was, there was, we were butting heads.

11:12There was a lot of questionable business practices. It was really poor leadership. I'm not going to name any names, but one day, uh, you know, I was on AOL and some messenger back then talking to a developer friend of mine who would help me with HTML and stuff. And he said, well, how's it going over there? And I'm like, to be honest, man, it's not going that great. The dynamics kind of off, not liking it. Well, they were watching my screen like remotely. So that afternoon I was fired because I was like, Hey, I'm up getting ready to start my own thing. So got fired, started my own thing. And this is a long winded way to answer your question, but I'm getting there. So, so once, once they fired me, I'm kind of like looking at other agencies.

11:44Like I don't want to work for another agency. Like I'm ready to do my thing. I've been preparing for this moment. So what I did was, is I went through LinkedIn and emailed like literally 500 people. And I said, Hey, look, here's what I'm doing now. I got my website ready. I got my portfolio ready. And I did all that. I got everything as good as I could go. And there was a point where I was working from home. And I remember just sitting at the couch in my living room. And I just thought, I don't have anything else to do. Like, and that was scary. Cause I was like, I was, I was like, I've done everything I can to get business. I don't have clients. And then, and then like, it was really scary for that moment.

12:16And I was just believing that it was going to happen. And, and I remember like, I never looked back from that point because stuff started coming in and things started working. Wow. And so to your question though, again, super long winded, I was really serious about getting new business at that point. I was going to like networking events, BNI events, like AIGA, like speaking at places, like doing all kinds of stuff like that. And now I don't have to do that anymore. And I'm not passionate about it. I'm kind of like, I don't like really like want a bunch more work.

12:46I'm kind of happy with the stuff I got. So that's one thing that I really used to worry about that I'm not so worried about now, kind of because it's become an autopilot thing. Like it kind of works and over, and I think it's going to be a theme about what we talk about, like that hard upwork front and like passion and seriousness about that paying off to the point where it doesn't require as much time now. So, I mean, that was a long way to answer that one part, but I mean, there's another one also is that, um, we talked about this in our talk in Cleveland, uh, is that it, which

13:16I'm not that happy about, but I'm a little more apathetic about making great work sometimes. You know, I'm kind of like, like, let it, like, let me just, let me just get it out the door so I can go to jujitsu or do surfing or something like that. You know, like, I'm kind of like, you have to have that balance, dude. You have to. Right. But so also I'm like, does it look amazing? Like, no, but do I care also? No, you know, it's not always like that though. There are cool things. Like I'm working on, uh, we talked about before about work I do for PGA tour and merch designs for local bars. And I'm working on that today before I call and like, that's really fun.

13:47I'm like, Oh, I'm getting excited. I just had this really cool idea today. And I'm like, Oh, I'm going to be able to do that. So it's not all the time, but, but I remember when I was a student, when I was working for agencies, when I was starting my company, I was like, this is just going to be fucking awesome. I'm going to make it so cool. And now it's kind of like, that's not as important. Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same premium wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today.

14:17I'm told it's super easy to do at mintmobile.com slash switch. Upfront payment of $45 for three month plan, equivalent to $15 per month required intro rate first three months only then full price plan options available taxes and fees extra default terms at mintmobile.com from the studio that brought you WandaVision. I was an Avenger, but I'm not a hero anymore.

14:41The vision returns for the final chapter of the groundbreaking trilogy. That family wasn't real. You sure about that? I had a father called Vision. How is this possible? Don't miss the two episode premiere of Marvel television's Vision Quest. Nothing bonds a family together quite like Mortal Jeopardy. Now streaming only on Disney Plus. Yeah. Yeah. It has moments though. Did you feel the, um, the business side of it, what you got in those first few things? I had a boutique little agency too that I started right out of school.

15:13I was the only employer, employee with four owners and I'll never forget that because the exposure I got to the business side that age, I think is the, is the foundation of everything else I've gone through. Did, did it, did you kind of, were you kind of a little shocked at that, that, that exposure and seeing it at that, at that young part of your career was that, that's obviously a huge benefit, but was it a little surprising, a little scary, a little like, and then you're like, whoa, this is actually part of the whole thing, right?

15:44This is part of the deal.

Confidence and client leadership

15:46Yeah.

Confidence and client leadership

15:47That was actually like, it's really cool that you mentioned that because that was like one of the most profound things that I recognized early in the industry. And I, and I speak to students like quite a bit around here at, at colleges and I have like a presentation prepared and I give, they have like a, the top five tips for like emerging talent. And like one of those things is about like internships and how important that is because knowledge is, uh, knowledge is only potential power. Like knowledge is not power until it's applied. So like, so when you go in there, like did so many projects in college, like, you know,

16:18making a book for this or a logo for this fake company or that. And that only gets you like 10% of the way there, you know, to throw an arbitrary number out there. But like, but then when you're actually working with clients and you're like, they don't like it. And they got feedback and you're like, damn it. Like, this is different than it was before when it's made whatever I wanted. But that stuff also is, that's again, like I said, when I started working at the agencies and kind of got thrown to the wolves and some of that stuff, like I was scared at first and I was like, I was like, this isn't my job. This and that. And then I was like, Hey, I actually can do this.

16:49And you, so you had mentioned before about like the confidence thing and like, that's what builds confidence. Like confidence is doing something really well and like being proficient at it. And so that's, that's why also we talked about this also before about like leadership, you know, like being a career director. And when you work at a small boutique studio, brand studio, like I have, you're doing sales, you're doing, you know, your marketing, you're doing the actual design work. And a big part about like making things easy with the client is like really having leadership

17:19with them. Because if you're letting them lead, like you're, you're going to be in a bad way because they don't know how to lead. They're hiring you to lead it. So to your question about, you know, working at, you know, as like a junior designer in an agency, like that's what teaches you those things. Like, Hey, I did this thing and it got really screwed up and the client like went on a crazy thing and we went over scope and the project turned out terrible. Don't do that again. So, you know, the client comes to me now and they're like, Hey, you know, I want three options. I'm like, well, I don't do three options. So like, this is the way I do it.

17:50And this is my like bulletproof process. That's tried and true. We're going to do this. And then like 99 out of a hundred times, like, okay, like, in fact, I can't even tell you one time where they push back and say, no, I really want three options. I'm telling them, no, that's not how it's going to work. But in a way, sometimes like being a young designer, people are scared to like tell a client, and this is how it's going to go. Or be a servant, right? Right. In a way they, they, they appreciate it. Even if it's subconscious, it's like training a dog, you know what I mean? You gotta, you gotta be the alpha for the dog and teach the dog.

18:21And then the dog will respect you. You know, if you like let the client walk all over you, they don't know what they're doing. That's why they've hired you. So that's why you kind of, it's good to go to them and say, I have the expertise to, to lead this. And that's why you hired me. And that's really what I got out of working for these agencies prior to, uh, having went in the studio. And back to the, the student discussion thing too. Another, another one, the main thing with the students is, is that I tell them don't just, a lot of them want to come out and start freelancing and like start a company. And I'm like, don't do that. Go work somewhere, even if it's an internship, even if it's one year, because you're going

18:54to learn what it's like to deal with clients, what it's like to deal with a creative director, what it's like to critically think about it and how to make something creative and how to deal with feedback and budgets, everything, right? Budgets. Absolutely. Timelines, uh, things changing off the dime, someone out sick for two weeks and now you're going to have to cover two, two different like jobs. It's, it is the, it's such a great bootcamp. It really is. And I know everybody eventually wants to make that leap and do their own thing one day. But again, like now, I think up until just about a year or two ago, I never would tell

19:26a student to get into that thing immediately. But sometimes they, you know, with the job market, particularly here in LA and other parts of the country, it is a little bit tough. And sometimes I'm encouraging them now to maybe just dabble a little bit to make some ends meet because like, you know, but while they're waiting for a, even just a reply back, it's such a different world for people. There's a delicate balance there. So the way that I phrase it in that presentation is not don't do it. It's like, be wary of it. You know what I'm saying? So, so like, yeah, because I did do it and that helped my career, you know, I have this

19:58job and then I'm working it. I'm telling you, it was like every night I was up till 3am, like working on stuff and then back at the office, I'm working on my own stuff. And then back in the office at 8am, you know, doing agency stuff.

Passion for the industry

20:10So it's important to do it. It's almost passionate about it. We've all seen like when we go, when we were in college or we're in our, you know, design major, like, let's say if it was like 30 people in your class, maybe 26 or 27 of them are really going to come designers, become designers, you know, like a lot of them don't, but it's the ones that, I mean, I was actually, I think I said that backwards, like three or four out of 30 are going to really become designers, you know, and the rest of them will go do something else. They've got a four year degree and that's fine for them. Yeah. But to really do it and to become good at it and become someone that has like a, you

20:40know, a career with longevity, like you and I, you really got to be passionate about it and you have to inherently have that in you. Did, but think of, think back to when you were that age, did people tell you that? Like I, I, I say to my students almost every night, like you're in an amazing thing. The opportunities are incredible. And with, and the stuff we share even on the podcast to anybody who's like, wants to leave that nine to five and start their own thing. It's like, it's the best time to do it. And someone's got to tell you it's a, it's a possibility, you know? And I, I, I don't, I didn't get, I think most of my education came in my first few jobs,

21:14not so much education, you know, my years in college, right? Cause it's like you work for someone now, it's all on someone's clock and on someone's dime and, and, and there's consequences. It's not fictitious stuff. So all those things, man, that, that was the best crash course I could have ever got was my first few jobs. And then obviously agency world for many, many years after that taught you everything. And that got me into the most, I probably the most confident I could be in starting a job. Couldn't have done it any years prior to that. Cause I probably didn't have everything under my belt at that time, you know?

21:46Right. So it's really important. I love that you're doing that and talking to the, to younger students too, man. They need to hear, someone's got to tell them what the possibilities are of this industry. Well, it's really great for me too. I mean, it's in a way I go and every time I speak and do those things, I learn things about myself that I never knew before, you know, like I'm like, did that come out of my mouth? You know, can you go and you kind of reflect on it and you're like, oh yeah, I forgot about that. Or I'll just like start telling a story, you know? And I'm like, I forgot about that time at the agency that this happened. So try doing it three days a week with them, man. It's like, I have things that I say sometimes that I'm like on both sides.

22:19Like, I can't believe I just said that. And then a few times you're like, did that just come out of my mouth? That was pretty good. Well, it's got to be really great and fulfilling too, because you're able to sharpen yourself and the fact that you're living it, you know, three days a week. I mean, that's a lot, you know, because you're doing, you're doing your design stuff, you're doing the teaching and you're able to really, you live it and you're doing a podcast. So you're like living these different types of scenarios that are all about creativity. And so that sets you up to be prepared for like, whatever happens, you know, like, like whatever happens with a client or whatever happens with a student, you're like, I know this. Like, I know, I deal with this all week long, every week.

22:50Yeah. So, and if I, if I don't know the answer, I could damn well find someone that probably has it, you know, and can speak maybe to customize it to whoever needs to hear it, find that right person. It's why I love doing this too, because the network of folks I get to talk to in this, you know, one-on-one situation, it goes for years after, right? It's, it's so awesome. You know, like you can look at where, where we just were. I'd say there were a good nine to 10 people at, in Cleveland that I've had on this podcast already. Cause it's just, it's a, it's a great way again, like I said, to continue that conversation,

23:23get the word out. And for anybody who is in a city where maybe they don't have a lot of this happening, it gives them a little bit of a community to hear great stories. There's so much knowledge out there. There's so much.

Community and networking

23:35So talking about back when I was starting my business and trying to like ramp up slowly, but, you know, making progress consistently towards that. I was so involved with AIGA, you know, and then I was involved going to creative South and crop and all that. And like, but I remember people saying, because that was a part of me, you know, enhancing my skillset to eventually have my own company. And so many times people said to me, why are you doing an AIGA? You're just marketing to your peers. And I'm like, well, I actually got a lot of business out of that because you, you, I

24:05mean, but not only business, more importantly, the knowledge and the skillsets that I got out of that, but also business. Cause I'm dealing with agency owners who are outsourcing work. You know, I'll work with agencies on a freelance. Oh, the exposure is amazing. Printers and vendors are involved. You know, one of the printers I met in AIGA has like been my printer for my company. We have a super close relationship for the entire time I've had my business. So it's like, you're living and breathing it. And there's so much of that out there. If you go to find it. And that's where I go. It goes back to the passion thing. Like it's easy if you're not passionate just to like, Oh, I don't want to go to an AIGA event.

24:36I don't want to spend the money to go to crop. You know, it's like, it's all these things. And it, because you don't really want to, your people aren't passionate about it. Me. I'm like, I get to go to crop, you know, I get to go to this like happy hour networking event and spend time with these people. And if you want to do it, like you come out of that, your brain is just packed full of new stuff where I hadn't thought about that.

Or I can consider that you take notes, you come back things like you said, actionable things like, you know, what you want to stop and start. Do you come back? Okay, well, I'm going to take action. This is when I come back. So being around people that are in the industry, it's, it's so invaluable because it's stuff that you never may have experienced firsthand, but you get that knowledge from them based

25:09on what they've experienced and shared with you. Well, everyone's sharing now that transparency is great. I love it. No one's gatekeeping, you know, to the point where it's like, gosh, there's almost too much information sometimes, but it's great too, because I think if there's anybody senior, they can help anybody junior find the right people. I've done that to people. People have done that with me. I love being a bit of a hub with folks too, because it's like, there's so many people that need to hear that little ounce of encouragement or whatever it is. And, or the, the kind of go get them attitude that I think you bring to this whole idea too.

25:43It's almost like there's no time to be like worried or, uh, concerned. It's just head down, get to work. Right. Absolutely. For sure. And that's, that's the thing too, is that like, you know, you speak about confidence and it's like, like deal Carter, yeah, I'm going to mess this quote up. I'm big, I'm a big quote guy, um, big into self growth and all that. But, but deal Carter, he says that, um, uh, you know, like something like confidence is like taking action or like, um, inaction breeds fear and doubt and confidence, um, or, or

26:18action breeds confidence. So like if you're sitting there, like it kind of goes back to what I said, when I start my business, start my business and emailed all those people and got my portfolio rate and got my, my website ready. And I'm like, I don't have any business. I'm sitting on the couch. I'm scared because I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, nothing's coming in. I don't like, what's going to happen. Am I going to, you know, at the time I had a single family income, me and like, you know, mortgage and car payments and kids and all that stuff. And I'm like, so the inaction of me sitting on that couch was fear, you know, but then like, if you take action and do something, then you're like, okay, I can do it.

26:51There's something, you know, that I can do this or I can do that and that type of thing. So that's a, that's a big part of it as well is that if you're, you know, if you're a young designer with a young company or you're a student and you're kind of feeling frustration and you're feeling, um, uncertainty about the career, it's like, well, you know, maybe work out of your portfolio, you know, maybe get your site better, maybe attend a networking event, maybe attend a crop. And then you come out of that and you feel like, oh, all these other people have experienced the same thing. And it just really helps to have that community. Yeah. I like what you say. The action is that way of, I had, I did a talk of a couple of weeks ago, all just about

27:25how luck is a thing, but you do have to work at it to make it happen. Right. Increase your surface area, get out there more. So luck could strike if it, if it does, because of that odd timing or whatever it might be. And I just think of all the times you get that little opportunity to meet someone. And if you don't take that initiative to even just make a quick introduction or whatever, or grab a beer from you as you were passing it down on that bar, I was like, I need to talk to this guy. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's, it's like, just, just like have your feelers open.

27:58I have that fun thing about like, I don't know if you read the book, Green Light by Matthew McConaughey. And it's that idea that if you, if you imagine a green light over your head, people will see it. Like it's a green light, meaning come chat with me, come ask me a question, come talk, you know, come hang or whatever it is. And for years, I think when I had my agency world and I was doing it all for somebody else, people told me I had a big red light on, meaning like, don't even offer him something because his answer will be no. He has no time. And so like, I just want to be that like complete green light person all the time because like,

28:32I don't want to miss opportunity in any way. Yeah. And I can actually completely relate because this goes back to my, the negative experience I had in the agency is that, you know, the account executives are coming to you saying, Hey, this has to be done today and you're going to have to work till 10 o'clock and they're going to happy hour. You didn't check with me before you signed the deal. Right. Yeah. So when someone comes to you in that, in that environment, you're like, damn, like, I don't, I don't want to do it. You know, it's kind of like a negative thing. And then, but it changes, you know, when you're in a position like you and I are, when

29:02you, something comes through, you're like, this is a new opportunity. This is new revenue. This could be a really cool portfolio piece. This could be a great client. It's gonna be a great relationship. And those things, um, it's just, it's more fun to deal with them when it's, you're doing it for yourself. You're not doing it on someone else's behalf and you're doing it on your own terms as well. Like I said, when you're doing, you got to be good with the decision you made, like, even if it's, even if you made the wrong one, I, I, I don't dwell on things any longer. Like, honestly, like, again, it's like, and I think that was the vibe I got from you when

29:33we were all chatting that same idea. Speaking of that, I think it was a great little segue.

Choosing clients and budgets

29:38How has your approach on choosing a client or a project changed over these years? Now that you, you have facilitated this onboarding process for quite some time and you want that still good kind of balance of life and work and all that. How's it changed? Well, I've always been, you know, to, to use your term, like a green light kind of guy. And once, once he comes in and again, the beginning, I was like, I've got to survive. I've got to, you know, I've got to pay my bills and stuff like that. So I've always been like, bring it on, you know, unless there's like a super red flag about

30:10it. Um, I would say like the obvious, the differentiator is like budget. You know what I mean? So, so like, so like when, when you start, when you start having these opportunities with new clients and people making inquiries, you price things in such a way that kind of fits your availability with your workload. So if something comes in, I'm just pulling my hair out. I'm like, I don't know how I'm going to do this. You can kind of put a higher price tag on it and see, let's see if the bites. If they don't, then, okay, great. I've got all this other business. If things are like a little slow or, or, you know, if it's, if it's actually like a really

30:44cool project, um, we, we talked about this before. Also, it was like, I'll do work for like PJ tour and, and, and some of the stuff that I had, the way that I priced some of that merch design is going to be different than I priced something from my local bar, you know, and they're, they're both fun and creative fulfilling work, but you know, you price those things differently because the value is different. You know, if you're selling thousands of shirts in like, you know, every major metropolitan area in America, then that, that creative has more value to it. If you're selling, you know, a couple of t-shirts a night at a local bar at one location, it's

31:17not going to have the same value. Now the work is still fulfilling on both, both points, but you know, like you kind of have to take into consideration, like which one makes sense, you know, which budget makes sense for each client and which one am I willing to do the work for now, back to your point about choosing the clients. You know, I've got a client that's a great client. I love these people like that. It's been, but it's actually been fun. It's, you know, it's a, it's like a septic tank cleaning company, you know, like, I mean, it's like not, not exciting. Yeah. Yeah.

31:48But, but it's good money and I'm helping them and we have relationship and they trust me and I'm like, you know, I've done the logo and the website and it's actually pretty funny and cool. You know, it's kind of like a, they've made, they made the gross part of it kind of fun. And so, so that was a cool thing as well. Um, I've got another client that's like a horse shampoo company, just like so freaking random, man. They got horse shampoo, horse lotion, like ointments, stuff like that. And we've made that fun as well. So like when it comes to choosing a client, like there would never be a time where they

32:19came to me and I'm like, this isn't cool enough. I'm not going to do this. Like, like, like me from a pragmatic business owner standpoint, I'm like, does this have a budget? You know, people need their septic tanks cleaned, you know, or I don't even know what they do. I guess people need the horses. Yeah. And shampooed and all that. And people love horses. So we had a lot of fun with that. You know, they've got a lot of merch now and everything that they're doing. Um, so really and truly it, it, it comes down to, uh, budget, but also like we've all seen the red flags, you know, like if it's so bad that I'm like not a good fit, you know, I

32:54had one recently. So I had one that everybody wants, you know, I did, I did packages on it and branding for, um, a vodka company that like distributes like all over an ABC liquors and liquor stores and all that and work with them for the while, a while it was, it was a bit of a strained relationship. Um, but I dealt with it, you know, it's kind of like the, you having the humility and having the, you know, communication super important to me. So I like, I communicated in such a way that made the best of the situation. And I'm like, I don't necessarily love these people, but like, it's good money and I can deal with it. I have the confidence that I can deal with it and correct the ship a little bit.

33:27Like, well, they sold to another company and then the new ownership came in and like right away, like I'm on a call with him. I'm like, I don't like these people, man. You know what I mean? Like, I do not like this. And I'm like, I'm like, they're asking for quotes on certain things. I'm giving them quotes. They're like, um, a little bit of like, this is too much money, but, but mainly like asking me for quotes over and over again. I'm like, are we going to do something, man? Like, like, I've written like six quotes for you. Yeah. Like I'm, I'm telling you, and again, from that leadership perspective, I'm like,

33:57explicitly written out. We're doing A, B, C, and D. This is what I think is going to be good for your company. And there's, I won't go into all the details. I just flat out didn't like them, man. And I, and I just finally said, this ain't a good fit. Gut, gut feeling, right? Like you knew it. And I told them this isn't a good fit. And they came back to me and called me in a frenzy. Like, no, no, no, it's good. And I'm like, trust me, it's not. Like, I've already felt that this isn't good. And they, they kind of begged me to change my mind. And I just, I had already made up my decision. Yeah. I'd already made up the decision, but that's a little bit of me. Red flags, just not liking the person.

34:29And then it also has that budget component. Because I'm like, I'm wasting my time giving you quotes. Again, efficiency is one of the most important things to me. And I'm like, I'm wasting my time. I don't like you. I don't want to do it. So I'm out. You know? It's almost like what, what, what parallels your own way of running a business? Do you, you look for that in the, the potential new client? Right. Yes, absolutely. Because like-minded people, you know, like attracts like, you know, so, so people that like, like the same things or work the same way, like they're going to work well together.

35:00This person, I just could tell that they, they didn't really have a good business sense. Um, so, I mean, and it, it was just, so here, this also goes back to like some of your questions about like, you know, what you did earlier on that you wouldn't do now or, or that type of thing. And like, that's one where I would have just been like, I need the money. You know, it is a cool project. It's liquor, you know, like it's packaging. Uh, I'm going to go ahead and do it. And then six months, a year down the road, I'd been like miserable pulling my hair out, getting ripped off or just the, the design sucks because they've changed it a million

35:34times about, you know, what, just based on what they think they like, that they like the way it looks, you know, all that stuff. It just would have been miserable. And then you're not even making money because you're losing sleep and all that stuff. So it was easier for me to walk away and you know how this goes when, when there's more business coming in, you can walk away from it because you're like, this other stuff's going to work out for it. So that was just one example. So back to your question, you know, budget's probably number one, like if they can afford what I needed to do to make it, you know, I'm somewhat of a local company too. So a lot of it's like local small businesses.

36:04And a lot of them had two this week that said, you're just way more than we can afford. And I'm like, sure. It takes, this is what it's going to take. I'm telling you, this is what it's going to take to do it the right way. But then also just the red flags and, and, and, and the, the, the, the, the, just being able to like work and like working with somebody, you know, it becomes more important when you have enough business and you've done it long enough. Yeah. I always look at it as like a satisfaction rating. Like where, where does it work for me? Is it, if, if it's a big budget, but there's a gut feeling, it might not be a good relationship. You've got to figure out how that balances off.

36:37Or if it's completely satisfying, they're an amazing team and great, you know, family owned business or whatever, but maybe the budget's a little less like I'm not, it's not an instant. No, I don't, I feel like we all have our own customized version of what a onboarding would look like, you know, and those checks and balances of, is it a yes for me? But one thing I do love to tell a lot of young designers is it shouldn't just be you waiting around for them to say yes. It's also you saying, Hey, this, they're just as much being interviewed by you as vice versa.

37:09Right. Right. So be, be conscious of that. It's obviously if you need the work for sure, like if it's do or die, but that confidence you have, I think helps you figure out who's a good one. Your, I'm sure your senses can pick that up a little bit better now with each good and maybe sometimes not so good client, which is awesome. Do you, do you feel like you're attracting the, the right clients now? And if so, how? Hey, Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. Now, I don't know if you've heard, but Mint's premium wireless is $15 a month, but I'd like

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38:38Well, it comes down to like so many things in life.

Portfolio and attracting work

38:41It's like, you know, you are kind of who you say you are. So, and that comes down to the portfolio. So, the stuff I, you're not going to see the septic tank stuff on my portfolio, you know? So, but you do see, I guess the work that I share is the work that I like. Yeah. And a lot of it just being so, such a local guy around here. Like there's a lot of word of mouth component too. Good. I do tons of bars and restaurants, which I love doing. I mean, I know you do too. You told me about the one you did in Newport.

39:11Yeah. Yeah. But so, somebody in that talk that we had, they said, somebody said, hey, I'm going to stop doing menu designs. I'm like, are you crazy? Like, give me the menu designs. Like, I love doing that. Like, you know, it's very, you know, just the arranging like a jigsaw puzzle in there. But I'll do, you know, lots of bars and restaurants. And then there's more bars and restaurants because all those people talk, hey, your branding looks great. Your menu looks great. Who did that? Or they tagged you on like social media. And it's like, that to me is the best when a client does that and posts like, it's like killer can work from Longo or something like that.

39:45I'm like, oh shit, here come the DMs. Let's go. Well, so a lot of it was also was really what I loved and was like ideal work for me is speaking of that is like breweries and cans. And, you know, and it's important also to have like versatility in your business because that stuff has dropped off so much, man. Like the brewery stuff. I don't know if you've noticed that. But like it's become they're all tightening their belts, man. It's all wellness drinks now. It's all wellness drinks. No one's drinking anymore. It used to be that a new brewery was opening every six months.

40:17And that was huge because they'd be like, oh, you did so and so. We want you to do this. It was happening all the time. And then so I've got a few great brewery clients and they're a lot of fun to work with. I mean, they're cool. You know, they drink. They kind of do a little partying. They kind of want their stuff to look cool and good. And so a lot of times that's a great client, but but and I still work with them, but it's different now because you're kind of like, like, hey, you know, we should really do redo your website. It's like eight years old. Like we can't you know, we can't do it right now, you know, because like things are you know, it's hard. And the revenue is not the same. It's not coming in the same way.

40:48But but yeah, I mean, that stuff's always fun. But in terms of like getting business, like if you're if you're doing the work, it goes to what I was saying before that like you are who you say you are. And if you're talking about doing your work and the big thing for me, too, is the website and blogs, you know, like so now like I've in the last few years, I've transitioned to more blogging about projects that I really like. And that helps with the social media. I mean, with the search engine optimization. Yeah. You're talking about breweries. You're talking about a taco restaurant.

41:18You know, you're talking about all these things that you're doing that you think is really cool. And it's not really directly like I'm going to post about a taco restaurant. I'm going to get a taco restaurant. It's more like the proliferation of that, like a couple posts a month, then like it can't help but like attracting some of that same type of stuff to kind of come into your ecosystem. It's putting it out there in the world in a way, you know, it's like not a six, not a game. But I tell you, if enough people, it might even be a random in-between person that saw what you did and then recommending it to the latest business that's coming up.

41:50You know, one thing I noticed now, we've got a lot of these Instagram accounts throughout the L.A. area that are highlighting new businesses when they see them being opened and when something closes and maybe something going up. And I was telling a lot of designer friends, like, there's your there's your like onboarding right there. Like, follow these guys. And when you see something happening in the in the town, figure it out. I know I've I've stalked places when it was when a new brewery was going in. I I found out everything I could to be like, who is the person? Because there's no way I'm not branding that.

42:22Like, you know, you go in with that kind of that. It's almost like like a scavenger hunt. I've done the same thing because it's that same feeling. It's that like, you know, nobody's better suited to do this for me than me locally type of thing. I don't do that a lot. Like I said, I as I've gotten, you know, further into more of a veteran in the industry, I kind of let what's coming in, coming in and manage what I have. But there was like a super new hotshot, like remodeled bowling alley that came in like a nice restaurant, like like like, you know, VIP area, DJs at bands.

42:55And it was like it was it was it was kind of like sad to me because it was like the childhood bowling alley that was like kind of a dump. But it was awesome. And they had like a killer bar in there and they like smoked in there. And it was like a nine year old woman smoking like pouring beers like it was it was really cool. So from the nostalgia standpoint, it was unfortunate, but they completely somebody else bought it, remodeled it, made it awesome. And I did message them and I was like, hey, look, here's my Instagram. Check it out. Because I'm looking at that. I'm like, I can make this really cool. So now I didn't hear from them, but I can relate to you. We were saying like this thing would be perfect for the work that I could do.

43:28And I know that I do a really good job on it. So there's something to be said about that, too. For people that are more at a junior level or starting their business, like why not, man? Like reach out. Share your portfolio. Or partner up with two or three other people that are you can be a powerhouse together. You know, if you feel right, it's it's a little bit too big to take on yourself. You know, there's there's so many different ways to play this game. Really, like my mind's spinning already and we don't even need to to know it. It's kind of crazy.

Refining success over time

43:53What I want to know, how is your definition of success changed over these like 16 years? Well, that's a great question. Um, and you know, in a nutshell, the way I look at success now is like success is like making progress because like you, you want to be moving forward and you can have a feeling of success if you're moving forward and improving in some way. If you if you're getting worse or things are getting worse, then that's that's like the opposite of success to me. Yeah. And you know, John Gruden, uh, the, the football, the old football coach for the, the bucks

44:27and he became a football coach for the Raiders. Um, he has a great quote that's like, you're either getting better or you're getting worse. You never stay the same, which is true. Like, okay, I'm going to be changing. Do I want, do I want to be getting better or getting worse? So to me now, I guess the reason I say that is because I've accomplished a lot of the things that the younger me thought, like, it would be so awesome if I could do this. So now I'm like basically in a like refinement process or making it better, making my clients,

45:00making my client list better, making my annual revenue at the end of the year better. Um, just having a better quality of life. The success is also to me now, which my answer would have been 10 years ago would have been different success to me is doing what you want, like when you want to do it, like with who you want to do it. So that, that to me is success now. What facilitates that is having money come in enough that I can have that flexibility. Um, you know, having the right clients. Um, and so the, the, like the business is not my whole life, but my life does kind of

45:35depend on that success. That's a good way. When I was younger. So, so, so again, like I, I, I live in Neptune beach, Florida, and I'm like the unofficial president, like of the, of the fan club of Neptune beach. Like I, there's not really, why am I not surprised Patrick? Yeah, there's not really a fan club, but I love it. Like I'm like the biggest cheerleader for it. It's a great place to live. So it, and it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it's highly sought after.

So it's challenging to kind of like get up on there and all that type of thing. So when I was younger, I was like, man, if I could have, you know, in college, I'm like, man, if I could have a house in Neptune beach. And if I can have my own design studio and do my own stuff, if I can have my own office,

46:09like, you know, all that type of stuff. And, and that stuff has become a reality for me. So, and there's something also about having gratitude because like as humans, it's human nature to, to like always want the next thing, you know, like you, you all, one day to find a million dollars, you get a million dollars. Well, now I want 10 million, you know, type of thing. So it's nice to look back and say, I'm grateful for these things that I've been able to succeed as a result of my hard work. And then what gives you that positive feeling of where you're, you're moving forward is

46:39having that progress again. And then, and then being able to enjoy the time that you have on your own terms is really success to me. Yeah. I like that. You said you're in like in a refinement stage or phase. That's really cool. I don't know if a lot of people actually define that so clearly because like you're well aware of that and those things you mentioned, I think it's a great tip to like wherever you're at in your career, give yourself a few months to be in a refinement zone, improve those little things, do all those things that you want to do. And I, I, I feel like it's almost like if you've been doing this long enough, you know,

47:13the answers, you know what you've got to do to get to your happiness or to whatever that good balance is where your, your, your definition of success is different from everybody else's. Right. Right. Figure it out. It's like, it's those little things. We do it for our clients. We figure out all of their, their quirks and everything else. Like doing it for yourself is kind of an amazing thing sometimes, you know? Well, the other thing is too, is that like, like the, from a student perspective, if a student was like me that like wanted, they knew eventually they want to have their own design studio or their own agency or a company or whatever it happens to be, that's going

47:46to be overwhelming, you know? So that, that's why, that's why I said success is making progress. So there you go as a, as a college student, if you want to eventually have your own studio or agency, say, I want to get my internship, you know what I'm saying? Like that's at that moment, you can do that, you know, um, or, or, you know, or like, um, if you're at that internship stage, well, I want it to be a full-time job. You kind of step by step and all that. And the other thing is too, is that the over from the overwhelming part of it, people tend

48:16to overestimate what they can accomplish in a year and underestimate what they can accomplish in a decade because they're like, Oh, in a year I could have, I'm going to start this business. It's going to be so great. I got this business plan. It's going to be great. It always takes longer than you think to get to where you want to be in that regard. If you're doing those small things over a decade period, you could accomplish more than like you even think that you could. So that that's like the power of making those small incremental steps, because if you get overwhelmed and look at like big goals or what would be success to me, I need to get from here all the way to over here.

48:48You could overwhelm yourself and be like, I'm, you know what? It's not in the cards for me. I'm not going to do that. But so, but if you're saying, Hey, is it in the cards for me to, you know, email 10 agencies and ask if they have an internship program this week? Yeah. You could do that in the next 20 minutes, you know? So, I mean, yeah. So, I mean, it's just making incremental steps. And then the thing is about success or feeling successful is that if you took that 20 minutes and you email those agencies and like you were in that part of your life and that's what you wanted to do, you would feel good that you did it. You know? So like you get like the advantage of the positivity of that and actually making progress towards what

49:19you want long-term. Yeah. Regardless of the outcome, you did do something pretty productive and pretty proactive. And that's a great feeling. It's like, and you'll probably do it again because you realize that only took a 20 minute chunk of my time one time. And now with so much you could do online and the way you can, you can project that, like I'm open for business thing to so many people at once is pretty amazing, right? Like there are no excuses there. All right. Quick takeaways to finish this off.

Trusting your gut

49:49What's one thing a creative business owner should stop doing?

49:56Um, oh yeah, this is, this is tough because we talked about this before and I was kind of, kind of drawing a blank. Um, I would say, uh, maybe common mistakes you're seeing people do. How do we, how do we eliminate that?

50:12I would say inexperience. I'm going to say too. Yeah. I would say, um, stop like going against your gut with, with stuff, you know, like, because like the, the, um, like your gut feeling is like, it's kind of in a weird way without getting too like supernatural, but it's like a universal thing. Like, like, like, like if you're telling you something like when I've gone against what my gut says in the past, like it's, it's not good. It's always a bad thing. Yeah. If you go with your gut, I just had the same thing, you know, just to, you know, kind of

50:45visualize this into a story. Like I said the same thing, like six months ago when I was in college, I had a guy, so this is actually a great, great way to describe this because when I was in college, I didn't know what I was doing and I was like, I want to make cool stuff. You know, I want to make like apparel and streetwear or like whatever, you know, I had my own clothing company back then, not really streetwear, but just like clothing, cool looking stuff that people wear. There was another guy with a clothing company and he's like, oh, like, you know, like we work on this stuff for me and he's like, I'll pay you later. And like, you know, long story short, never got paid.

51:17Then he kind of ripped me off. And that was kind of, this guy has a bad reputation around town and all that. And then like, like six months, a year ago, he'd been asking me for years to do stuff with him again. And I was just like, I know I shouldn't, I know I shouldn't. I'd throw high prices out. He'd be cheap about it. I'd be like, sweet, he's gone. I don't worry about it. Finally, he came back and like. He accepted my quote. And I was kind of like, as again, as a business owner that wants money coming in and wants to work and stuff, I was like, I don't have a reason to say no. I can't just be like, screw you. I could, I guess. But I like to have like a good reputation.

51:49And also, and I'm like, it's been 20 years. Like, let me just, let me just try it again. And, and I got completely not only ripped off, but also super frustrated about that whole process. So I'm like, so, so to answer your question, I think that like, like, don't be scared to say yes to stuff. But also if your gut's telling you this sucks, like, probably listen to that. Yeah. If you were starting, uh, the 63 visual, uh, visual again tomorrow, what would you have changed?

52:17Um, man, I, I gotta be honest with you. This is, this is not a great answer, but I, I, I think that the way whatever happened, happened and it couldn't have happened any other way. The way it happened, you know? Yeah. I totally agree in what I have now and the skills that I have now and the knowledge I have now, I wouldn't trade it for anything. I mean, of course there's like circumstances or situations that I think could have gone better. I mean, that's like anything in life, but I'm like, I wouldn't be here had I not done what I did then. And that's why I have confidence talking to students about stuff because I'm like the

52:49way that I did this, the way that I set this up, like from high school, you know, like drawing and painting, making a portfolio, you know, using that stuff to get into like the degree programs. Like it was that incremental process type thing, you know, working for interning, working for three different agencies with different objectives with each of them, getting fired, man. It's freaking awesome. Like that was, that was so great because I was also like, screw you, dude. And I went and had a successful agency and like, or studio and like compete against them on bids, you know, like, and they're like, yeah, all right, I'm fired.

53:21Well, screw you, man. I'm going to compete against you and get this project. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so, so yeah, like I said, I mean, it's, I'm not really answering the question, but like, that's the best way I could answer it because I think that how it happened was I'm grateful for those experiences, you know, how it all came together. That's how Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile with a message for everyone paying big wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop. With Mint, you can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying, no judgments, but that's weird.

53:53Okay. One judgment. Anyway, give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch. Upfront payment of $45 for three month plan, equivalent to $15 per month required intro rate for three months only then full price plan options available taxes and fees extra see full terms at mintmobile.com. From the studio that brought you WandaVision. I was an Avenger, but I'm not a hero anymore.

54:16The vision returns for the final chapter of the groundbreaking trilogy. That family wasn't real. You sure about that? I had a father called Vision. How is this possible? Why am I losing? Don't miss the two episode premiere of Marvel Television's Vision Quest. Nothing bonds a family together quite like Mortal Jeopardy. Now streaming on Disney+. I would expect you to answer it because I think, again, if you came back with like four mistakes and just lamed them out, that could scare someone to not go into their own business in this creative

54:51industry. And I think the thing is, is like those things you mentioned, those bad things, like nothing perks my students up until I talk to them about a failure or a hurdle or getting fired by a client or getting ripped off by a client, that you have to hear those things. You really do. And it's not like if I changed anything to avoid those, I wouldn't have the armor I feel like I have now as a business owner that repels it almost automatically. I can actually give you like a super tangible example of that.

55:22So like when I was in high school and when I was working at agencies and freelancing late in the evening, all that type of stuff, I was, I would get ripped off all the time. And like in, I'm telling you, it's crazy because when I started my business, I'm like thinking and I remember thinking in my head, like, this is going to be a challenge. I'm going to have to deal with what percentage of the time I get ripped off and how does that impact my bottom line? I do not get ripped off anymore, man. Like, like, like, like one thing like that, that, that with that unfortunate experience with the guy I was talking about, like that was an isolated incident.

55:53I didn't get ripped off that bad. I got some of the money, but like, I thought people were going to just ghost me all the time. And like, but the, the thing is though, it's like, you're saying, it's the result of those experiences. It's the result of those being ripped off early on. I said, well, don't do that. Or, you know, get 50% down and then don't, you know, like, I guess basically like getting 50% down to me is I'm like worst case scenario and they disappear. I at least have enough to like make my time worth it. There you go. But you learn all these lessons to back you up. Right. Yeah. That protects you because you learn in the past.

56:26But it was almost like when I was younger, when I was, didn't have the knowledge that I have now is that I was setting myself up to be able to be ripped off really easily. You know, it'd be like 50% of the time, like going and say, oh, just pay me later. Like whatever you think, like, no way, man. Like, like now it's very clear. Like, you know that you owe me this. We talked about this. Like leaving hard copies of the logo you designed for them that you didn't even get paid for yet. And then they wind up painting it on the side of their building. Yeah. That was my, that was my biggest lesson ever. Like you're like, you haven't even paid for it, dude.

56:56And you've already used it. It was like, man, again, you're right. You went into it almost not knowing. And so it's so good to get those lessons learned early and often because man, dude, like you become such a warrior after that. And, but then you could still be the perfect, kind, friendly, you know, designer, but you've, you've protected yourself, you know, and you're not bitter. It's so much of that communication, man. Yeah. It's just communication. Like I said, I mean, like, we're very clear that you owe me this. Like early on, it's kind of like, you're scared to like ask for money.

57:28You know what I mean? Like, and, and they're very, they're very confident, not giving you money. You know what I mean? So it's like, but when you communicate better and everyone just knows what's going on, you make it clear. Like if you don't pay me, you're an asshole, man. You know, I guess like, it's very, it's very clear. And then like, if, if you don't communicate it properly and then, oh, it's okay. He, he was just having fun, making art, you know, that type of thing. Change that perspective, that perspective so much, man. Like you're not that artist. You're a business person first that just happens to do artistic stuff. Like it's all those little mind shifts, you know, this was great, dude.

58:00I'm doing, I'm so glad we were able to finalize this call and chat and everything, man. I knew it'd be a good one. I'll share all your information there. Any, any parting words to those folks out there that are like, maybe still dabbling with the nine to five, doing a little bit of hustle for the freelance thing. How do they get over that hill and either balance it out or go full throttle?

Building a side hustle

58:21Well, what you described, I think is the right way to do it. Um, I think that it's, um, in many cases, a bad decision to just quit your job when you're not prepared to start something. So like the way that I did it, like, again, me getting fired was awesome. And it was only awesome because I was like this close to doing it anyways. You know what I'm saying? Like, like, so if you, I would say working at that nine to five moonlighting with some freelance stuff. I mean, if you're doing stuff for local gigs or you're like music you like, um, or like

58:53doing, you know, graphic tees for local clothing company or, or whatever it happens to be, but kind of, I guess the way I did it was like, like, again, like building that book of business. Like, so when I, when I got fired, I had like two or three people that I was like, you got anything else for me? And then I emailed those 500 other people that I'd been kind of warming up that whole time or had made connections with. So if, if someone wants to do that, have their own agency or studio, um, and they have a full time job, like that's the best opportunity that you have because you've got a, you've

59:26got, you've got revenue coming in, you've got your paycheck coming in and then you have like the gift of your free time that you could be using to do that. And I did that over a period of several years. I mean, like six years, always working, always working on stuff like that, like, like on the side so that like, it wasn't like, Oh, I'm going to just start my own thing. And then boom. And then I have nothing. You had my website, my portfolio, you know, I'd run search engine optimization on it back then, um, LinkedIn, you know, all that type of stuff. But I would say like having that job is such a luxury, you know, before you're really willing

1:00:01to say, Hey, this is what I do full time now. I agree. Sweet dude. Well, thanks again, brother. So glad we were able to catch up and, uh, thank you so much, man. I just, like I said, I mean, we, we met, uh, in Cleveland and it was just so cool. And we're speaking a lot of the same language. I think we have a lot of the same experiences. So it means a lot to me that you had me on and that was just a great conversation and, uh, had a really good time. So I really appreciate it. I appreciate it, man. And hopefully, uh, you'll probably hear from a few folks too that listened to this, but, uh, feel free to chime in.

1:00:31I'm sure you'd be open to a lot of answering questions and stuff from anybody that got inspired by this. Absolutely. I love it. Yeah. Yeah. It's, uh, uh, six, three visual.com. Peek email me at P Carter at six, three visual.com. I'm happy to kind of continue the conversation with people who had, you know, stuff they wanted to add, or if they had questions about my experience or whatever happens to be, you know, feel free to reach out on Instagram. Super appreciate it, buddy. So, yeah. Thanks, Nick. I appreciate it. All right. Thanks, man.

1:00:58If this conversation helped you think a little longer term about your creative career, hit like, and subscribe. It helps more than you think. And if you know a creative who's trying to figure out their next move, share this with them. That's how we get this community to grow. Hey, Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. Now, I don't know if you've heard, but Mint's premium wireless is $15 a month, but I'd like to offer one other perk. We have no stores. That means no small talk. Crazy weather we're having.

1:01:29No, it's not. It's just weather. It is an introvert's dream. Give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch. A front payment of $45 for a three-month plan, $15 per month equivalent required. New customer offer first three months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. See mintmobile.com. From the studio that brought you WandaVision. I was an Avenger, but I'm not a hero anymore. It's like I'm losing my... The Vision returns for the final chapter of the groundbreaking trilogy. That family wasn't real. You sure about that? I had a father called Vision.

1:01:59How is this possible? Why am I losing my... Don't miss the two-episode premiere of Marvel Television's Vision Quest. Nothing bonds a family together quite like Mortal Jeopardy. Now streaming on Disney+. Thanks.