Jacob Paris - Graphic Designer & Illustrator

Welcome Jacob Paris

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1:00All right. Jacob, what's going on, dude? Welcome to our podcast. Yeah, happy to be here. Thanks for having me. I know, man. We've been talking since, I think, Max, back in the day, and trying to figure out a time to come.

1:31And you and I got a chance to chat a week or two ago, and man, you just started telling me some stories. And I'm like, how did we not get this earlier? So I'm so glad that we were able to make this happen, and you're here, man. Everything going well? Yeah. Yeah, everything's good. Just kind of figuring out the landscape of things to do, and we'll lead into it, but figuring out work stuff, living stuff. But yeah, got a very interesting, weird life when it comes to bringing us to work and stuff.

2:02Say less. We're here to chat. For some of our listeners who don't know you, how would you describe yourself? Tell us a little bit about your creative background, where you're at now. Totally. Yeah. So as you graciously introduced me, I'm Jacob. More people would probably know me as By Jacob Paris. I've gone through a lot of different masks in my creative journey. I was a sewer when I first started, and I went into screen printing, then I went into graphic design, and then I went to streaming.

2:35And now I'm kind of more on the streaming and the illustration side and more in education. But I do a lot of illustration and print work, I guess, on the non-professional side for personal stuff. I would say, in terms of my creative journey and where I'm at right now, I work with clients. I primarily do a lot of client work. As of recently, that's been pulled back a little bit because I'm currently contracted with Adobe, which is really, really cool. I'm doing production and hosting for them.

3:06And I use that money to kind of invest into what I say is my business. It's not quite a business. It's more of a hobby that is circumvented by a hobby that I also play. I make accessories for card games. So I'll make like play mats, deck boxes, sleeves. And a lot of that kind of supports the other half of my income. So a lot of making art cards, which I can probably send to you on the side if you want some reference for that. I run an Etsy shop, make some stickers, have a printer, and kind of use that to branch out in all these different IPs that take reference from those things and kind of do my own spin on things like that.

3:46Nice, man. I think you need to diversify a little bit, bro. Just a little bit, you know? Just a little bit. Yeah, yeah. Where do you think that spirit or that like, you know, there's so many ways to call it, right? Drive, even just curiosity. Where do you think that came from, that you want to be, you have this like really unique path, you know?

Drive and catching the big fish

4:05Yeah. I mean, I, so I want to go on record and say, and maybe some people disagree, maybe some people won't. I feel like I'm not very driven person. I feel like I could be much more driven. I look at like friends, like we just brought them up. So it's a great example. Tyler Payne. And I look at people like Steven Overturf or Kara Sykes. And like, these are people that are balancing all these really high, um, highbrow kind of things. And I would love to be there. I don't think that I'm incapable.

4:36I just don't know if I'm quite organized in there yet. But I would say a lot of the drive comes from just wanting to be there, right? Like I have kind of a vision, maybe not, I can think of it kind of like a, like a tree branch, branch off like, uh, pathways of like, I know that if I don't do this thing within this amount of time, then I will feel this way. And I know that if I do do this thing within this time, uh, these are the results I can see from it. And then they just branch off into more and more. So it's a lot of like, I don't know, I read this book a long time ago, not too long ago, but last year, um, it's called, I have it here.

5:14Let me see. Um, yeah, it's a David Lynch book. It's a very, very strange one. Talk about it. I love the book recommendations that have come up, but so far so good. This sounds like a doozy. Yeah. So this is called Catching the Big Fish. This is an awesome book about doing things first, as opposed to better, if that makes sense. Yeah. That's a big thing that you wrote down. I thought that was interesting. Yeah. And I, it really resonated with me about how he talks about, oh, I just did the thing because it felt right in the moment and I know no one else has done it.

5:47So like when you think of a majority of his work, a lot of it was in his eyes rushed. And that's brought a lot of creative pressure off of me and gives me that drive of like, oh, well, I just need to do it now before somebody else does it better than me, because then I'm the person that did it first. Right. Cause I can promote myself all I want. I can send it to as many people as I want. I can do whatever as long as I do it first, but I might not be able to draw it better than X, Y, or Z. Right. Dude, we have some parallels there, man. That's interesting. I, I, I like your, your honesty with that because yeah, I, I feel the same way sometimes the drive thing.

6:21I think, look, there's a perception of what's a friend, a person who follows you, a client might have of you. And then there's what you really know about yourself. And I don't, I don't think anyone has the same exact, you know, archetype, you know, persona down when it comes to perception and reality. You know, I, I think the same dude, I, sometimes it's like, yeah, man, I, it's like, I have to have, I just heard a great line the other day saying like, I'm better working with people than working alone.

6:53And we both kind of work a lot more solo right nowadays, but where the, the, the roots come from are working with people. And when I come back into like school time or the, the working with the Adobe family as an extended family, that's where I'm better. I'm just better when people are, Nick's got a date to figure out. And my responsibility will, will be 10 plus there. But if it's for Nick, forget about it. Back burner. Absolutely.

7:23Like parameters help, right? Like having any form of, it's like, it's like bowling with the bumpers up. You know what I mean? It's like, sure. Can I hit eight, between five and eight pins with bumpers down? Of course. But it's a lot easier when the bumpers are up. You know what I mean? At least I can kind of have a little bit of creative flexibility and like a little bit, maybe, maybe actually the opposite, less creative flexibility. So there's less bars to kind of branch out. Like there's not too many options, if that makes sense.

7:56I feel like that's where I get kind of caught in the weeds, especially when it comes to design and illustration is like, man, it could go this way, this way, this way, this way, this way, this way. I could go with this printer, this printer, this printer. I could do these colors, these sorts of things. And I just like, it just swirls up in my brain until finally I'm just like, I don't care about the other options. I just need to go with the one that gets me to the end point, you know? Yeah. Would you say the screen printing area of your experience and background is maybe where you came through, started with the first area?

Starting on TikTok during COVID

8:27Yeah, I would say so. I mean, even before screen printing, I was sewing on TikTok. Yeah, that's amazing, dude. It's really strange because, so to kind of talk from the foundation, the whole reason I started social media was because I moved back in with my mom during COVID. That's a scary word, 2020, like March of 2020. And I was like, man, I want to do creative stuff.

8:59My mom is a fantastic sewer. I'd love to learn how to sew. So she taught me how to sew. And throughout these processes, I would just show my process of sewing and just post it to TikTok. Very snappy, very fast. I'd be like, oh, I stole my mom's curtains from her college dorm and I made pants out of them. And were you a beginner at this stage? Super beginner. I mean, these things would like, you know, behind the curtain, no pun intended, like the pants would fall apart.

9:30You know what I mean? Like they were not good sews or anything. And I had like, what do you call it? Elastic bands that were put in that like would pop out. You know, like it was all kind of the illusion of like, well, I'm learning, but I wanted to get to this end product. But the first video I posted ever on TikTok, I think got like 10K views. And I was like, whoa, this is crazy. I have 20 followers. This is awesome. So I was getting this dopamine rush of like, I'm going to keep posting. So that quickly moved into, I was working with a vintage company in Charleston.

10:01This is where I grew up, Charleston, South Carolina. That's where I first started all this. And I was being given vintage clothes to modify. So the way that I would modify it is I would tie dye. So I would tie dye a shirt, cut up the shirt, cut up the vintage shirt, and then sew kind of patchwork onto the shirt, which got really popular. I got to do some really cool stuff, got a lot of views, had some like runway unofficial stuff, which was really, really cool for Charleston at the time.

10:34Because I was like, fashion is a big thing with Charleston. And then I posted a video of doing like just a tie dye shirt. This was like, I'm sure you're familiar with the artist Travis Scott. This was peak Astroworld record coming out. Very, very like popular album. Pushed them super far. And I bought this Astroworld shirt from that drop. And I tie dyed it. And I think that's like my most viewed video ever. It has like 980,000 views or something like that. And then from there, just like, boom, soaring, right?

11:06So I was doing a lot of tie dyeing, doing a lot of that process, was gaining more followers, going up to 10,000, 20,000, 30,000. And then I moved out of my mom's house, was still doing this like kind of cut and sew is what I called it type of stuff. But was wanting to do some stuff more customized because vintage shirts are expensive. Me tearing them up got like a lot of flack, you know, because they're vintage. So then that's when I moved into the screen printing. Interesting. I was very lucky because the way that my trajectory went was I moved out of my house to a place in Charleston.

11:42I was working at Apple at the time, which was pretty cool because they were pretty free reign for letting me have creative freedom of being able to do the things I want. I was recording, I was recording TikToks while working remotely for Apple. Wow. And I'd be like, oh, you should buy off of my Etsy store. Like, here's a thing that you should know about screen printing. Then I started to record that half while I was working remotely. And then I would bike to my studio, which I shared with a friend, which was super cheap, like warehouse where we had a screen printing set up.

12:20I wish we had that in L.A. Dude, it was like 75 bucks a month split between two people. It was crazy. It was dingy, but I'm like, dude, this is my first experience. Yeah, it was awesome. So, you know, I'd bike home, drop my bike off, walk over to my studio because it was walking distance from my house. And then I would just get to work and I would record TikToks from like, bro, I mean, like I would get off at four and I would record TikToks from like four to 12. And at that point, I was just so driven socially, like I was getting this dopamine hit that I, yeah, I would post like three times a day.

12:58It was crazy. Like, I just was like, I'd take Sunday and I would just record like seven TikToks or like 10 TikToks. And it would just be short stuff, right? It'd be like, here's tips you need to know about screen printing. Here's X, Y, Z, whatever. And I would just keep posting nonstop. And it was a ton of fun. Like, I just had fun. I didn't care, right? You sound like you were on autopilot. Like, yeah, almost in a way. Absolutely. And I was having a ton of fun. I was doing some like graphic design stuff. This is like moving into Illustrator.

13:28I had a friend teach me, the person I shared the studio with. And then from there, that's kind of what developed into where I'm at now. I haven't screen printed in a while, but it's just because of space. When I moved to Pennsylvania, that really, well, after I left my job that I initially moved up to Pennsylvania for that, it really changed the scope of my social media. It changed the scope of what I was focusing on, but I think it really helped with like working with limitations, right? Blowing ad budget on metrics that look great till the CFO sees them.

14:00That's bull spend. And marketers are calling it out in dashboard confessions. I remember telling my boss, it'll be good for the brand when leads were slow. Yeah, it wasn't. Cut the bull spend. LinkedIn lets you target by company, job title, and more. Advertise on LinkedIn. Spend $250 on your first campaign and get a $250 credit. Go to linkedin.com slash campaign. Terms and conditions apply.

14:28The perfect lunch combo. That first bite of your favorite sub followed by ice cold Pepsi. Add a couple of friends and now that's next level. Suddenly, the laughs get louder, the stories keep flowing, and the food tastes better. Because Pepsi brings out more flavor, more fun, and more of the moment. Food deserves Pepsi. Grab a Pepsi Zero Sugar today.

Making a living from social media

14:51Yeah. With all that, it sounds very self-initiated, self-driven, you know, kind of survival as well. But it sounds like you loved it too. Yes. What did you learn the most there during that time? Like, that you still use daily today? Yeah, I mean, that's a good question. I think, like, continuing to be driven by any means is, like, super important, right? Like, at the time, the stress was money, right?

15:21Like, it wasn't that I was doing it for money, but it was, hey, if I don't post these TikToks, if I don't accept these brand deals, if I don't continue to do this stuff, I will not have money to pay my rent. Like, that's just, it's as simple as that. So I have to be driven to do the work, and there's no boss that's going to fire me if I don't do it. There's no, you know, clock in, clock out where I get written up for it. It's just I have to kind of set my own parameters, but also being comfortable with those things changing, those drives changing, right?

15:55I would say now I very rarely post on social media after posting all the time, and it was very hard for me. I have a lot of conversations with my wife about where my drive comes from. Am I a driven person? Why am I doing the things I'm doing? Is it even worth it, right? Like, the sacrifice of making decisions, spending money on things, investing in my business. Like, I'm not getting the same dopamine that I did five or six years ago.

16:25But being comfortable with that, right? Like, right now, my drive for doing a lot of things that I do is the fact that I can walk into a game store where I play card games, and I can see people using my accessories. And for me, that's so rewarding. That's, like, someone that supported me, someone that resonated with my work, and something that, to me, is very important. Yeah. But the internet will never see that, right? Like, and I have to be okay with that. So what would you say to someone who is chasing that?

16:56Because I think everyone that has never been in that zone, you keep chasing that idea of whatever it is, following exposure and everything. And it's true. I was just watching another thing this morning that was talking all about that dopamine hit. And this one guy was, like, he took, he turned it off for 30 days. Like, literally. Jeez. Was using, you know, the brick, that little device? He was using that. And then he just said, no. He gave his phone away to a trusted friend. That's crazy. And.

17:26Oh, I think I know who this is, actually. Dominic? Yes. Yeah, he's. Yes. We're talking about having him on the episode. So I'm so excited. Yes, that's awesome. That's so sick. Just heard back from him last night. I'm so excited. Like, I love just, like, what we're talking about, these stories. And he, but it's so neat that he, he logged those 30 days. Yeah. And every level of emotion, you know, that he, he wanted to see if it, like, very analog, how did it change his perception?

17:57How did it change his views? Absolutely. And obviously it was so refreshing. So to you, it sounds like you're finding more real evidence of your participation, your contributions, the way you just said it with the gaming thing, right? Absolutely. And I think that, like, you know, to, to, to give the nugget of advice to, to viewers that I found very helpful for me is I think this is such a corny Southern term, but just hear me out.

18:27Bring it. There's a, there's a, there's a, there's a saying that my mom would always tell me that's like comparison is the thief of joy. And it's so true, right? Like I look at people like Adam, the illustrator, and I'm like, damn, I wish I was doing that. I really wish I was like posting every day and I wish I was getting these brand deals and getting to do these huge activations and all these things. But for me, that's not how I'm driven. And even if I were to be put into that point, I think I am accepting the fact that for me, that is not what will make me feel satisfied.

19:06And that's not to discount, um, Adam and that's not to discount my experience either. It's just, we are two vastly different people. And the minute that you can see or, or identify what makes you feel fulfilled when it comes to this line of work, what makes you feel fulfilled with whatever passion project you're chasing, that be views, that be followers, that be impact. Just doing the thing, impact, I think that's, that's where you really start to soar, right?

19:38Because that's where the motivation comes is, oh, well, I don't really care about followers, but I really love, uh, seeing people use my stuff or, oh, I don't care about people using my stuff, but I really love going to markets or talking to people. Like just identifying that is so valuable because on social media, right, we, we have this idea of things have to be a specific way. Things have to go a specific way in order to see success. But I know people that do not post TikToks ever, ever, right?

20:08Do not post Instagram videos ever. They are not on long form content and they make 180K a year just doing markets. You know what I mean? So. Yeah. You choose your, God, it's like, obviously you're choosing your path, but you're also choosing the reward. What's the reward? What, what, what comes back to you and you say, I love that. Like, and I think, and it's, I'm glad you brought up that everyone is so different. And that idea of comparison robbing joy, I can't remember however, specifically how you said it, but it is kind of so true because in this world of having social media and 18 different outlets to see what other creatives are doing, real or not.

20:48And you get your, each one of us has a thing of, you know, either imposter syndrome, I'm not doing enough and whatever. Absolutely. And I wish we could just, if that's one thing we can rob from it, I wish it was that because then you get, you're just like, you're in your own lane. You get to do this, this, this world we live in, this industry we're in allows you to do whatever you want to do to survive, to make a living and to do whatever. And you've, I think your story is cool because you've experimented with so many different things to see what makes you tick and, and where you're at now sounds like a really healthy and great balance without all of the dopamine thing that you were typically getting.

21:33Absolutely. And I mean, I think that like, there are still, right. There are still things that hit that dopamine button. Like I have some things that have happened to me even over the past couple of weeks that I've been like, wow, I never, ever, ever, ever thought that this would happen. But like, I'm very thankful that this happened. But that came with being very patient with myself, understanding kind of what I'm driven by. And also, you know, and I, and I acknowledge that this is coming from a place of privilege.

22:03So like, by no means do I want people to be like, well, but like, I have a, I have a very lovely support system spread across my friends, my wife and my family that have believed in me for a very long time. And when I'm like crying or just like totally defeated over things, not going a specific way, I have a lot of people that kind of lift me back up, remind me of the things that are important and the things that I have achieved so far. And they're also remind me I'm 28 years old, right.

22:34Like, and I think this goes without saying for anybody of any age, right. If you're 40 or 50 or 12 or, you know, whatever, like it, this line of work is an ageist, right. It's, it's very much like you can kind of jump in whenever you want. So there's never really like a too late thing, which I think is cool. Right. It makes me, it takes a lot of pressure off of me as well of like, oh, well, I wanted to do playing cards for like almost four years now, three or four years, like a whole set of 52 playing cards.

23:07I know, right. That's the thing. And I've talked to, um, I wish I could remember her name right now. I'll send it to you after, but she's, her entire brain is built around making playing cards. Uh, she, and she's so good at it, but talk to her about it. I talked to a couple of people and just be like, oh man, I really want to do this, but I keep putting it off and I'm like, oh, well, I should probably do this before I'm 25. Oh, I should probably do this before I'm 30. But like, you know, there, there's a, something to talk about a procrastinating. That's just part of the job. But like, I don't feel like if I hit 30 and if I don't make these cards, like I'm not dead in the water.

23:41Right. I can make them at 30. I can make them at 40. It doesn't matter. I can just do it when I want, when it feels right. Life lessons prove that theory so wrong. Cause like, you could think about all those times you said, I want to do this by this time or whatever it is. And then life experience happens and you realize, oh, you know, things, I can't control everything. I could put as much out there as I want for someone else to react to, or to say yes to, or whatever it is. But some of that stuff's just going to come in due time. And you're right.

24:11Like it's, it'll always be there. And, and you might just bring the most interesting, unique thing to playing cards that nobody else has done when your time is right. Absolutely. And I think authenticity is so important in this line of work too, right? Like if you are not, if you're not feeling it, like obviously do stuff fast, do stuff before other people do it. But at the end of the day, do it authentically, right? Like put, put, put your whole heart and soul into it because that, when you're half-assing stuff or when you, when you're kind of, you know, doing it just to do it.

24:46I know I might be contradicting myself a little bit, but doing it for maybe the wrong reasons, the reasons that aren't fulfilling for you. It can be, it can show in your work, unfortunately. And in your heart, because it's like, obviously, right. I think you will know you're the, you're going to be the only person that knows when it's time to say no to that. And I've, I've worked with so many designers that have been in those situations where it's like, I'm at a dead end with something or whatever. And sometimes you just need, like you said, a good support system or someone to tell you, Hey, maybe it is time. It's okay to make the pivot and, and like compared to other generations that stayed in one thing for their entire life.

25:23And to see that now, I know, obviously sign of the times, it's not so much about just individual freedom that you can be like, Oh, I could just bounce around. Sometimes it's, you know, it's an unfortunate thing. It's a layoff or I've gone through company mergers, layoff, downsizing, all those things that like, if that, some of those things didn't happen in my past, I wouldn't be saying right where I'm at right now. So totally, totally. Like some of those things you cannot plan, but the one thing you can do is like, my biggest thing is like resiliency. Like that, that thing about, I just saw a video of this girl who recorded herself on her last day at Disney.

25:58She got laid off. Oh, wow. And she's literally got the camera in her box of her stuff as she's walking out. And the people that came to her and gave her a hug as she left, she gets in her car and she just goes, and she's in bawling and tears. She says, of course, I'm actually excited for what's next. And what, that's the attitude I just love. She had that, she went through her grief and then there was this sense of the resiliency. And that just got me, I was just brought us, even though she's bawling, it brought a smile to my face.

26:33And we've all been there, right? Like there's been those moments. So what do you, what do you do to kind of have a sense of, you know, a bumper when bad shit happens? How do you push it off or first deal with it and then say, get the fuck out of here? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Working in Philly and leaving

26:51I mean, I, I will say first things first, I have a therapist, which is so helpful. And if you do design, or if you're a freelancer, get a therapist, it'll help you out. That should be a requirement. It'll, yeah. Like legitimately, if you have healthcare, I understand it's a little different. Like, you know, I have just reasoned to go out of a therapist because I'm in Canada, but I, I, I highly suggest, or just talking, journaling, do something to allow yourself, again, that grieving process, and allow yourself to have kind of like a checkpoint.

27:25So like I have, I don't even know if it's within reaching distance, unfortunately. No worries. So I have a, I have a journal that I, I journal in. I was doing it about for six months. I stopped a little bit, but I was journaling pretty much a significant thing that happened every single day. So every day, it doesn't matter if it's bad or good or whatever. Just something that was significant. I just started that today. Yeah. I just, just started that today. It's helpful because you can look back and see, you know, if something was very significant, getting laid off, if it was significant in that moment, you know, you might feel very different about it now.

28:02Like I think about, you know, so this is going on a bit of a tangent. I think your viewers will probably be able to tell that I have very bad ADHD. So I just ping pong everywhere, but this is all relevant. I promise. Welcome to the show. So I had a very significant moment in my artist career. We briefly talked about me bouncing around, but for people that don't know, I started out in South Carolina. I moved up to Philly with the intention to kind of be closer to a better art scene.

28:33And then I moved to Canada in between that time of moving to South Carolina and Philly is when I really got into screen printing because I moved up to Philly with the express intent of working with a screen printing company. And it was pretty nuts, like pretty highbrow. We printed for 100 gex. We printed for online ceramics. We printed for, um, for, uh, nine inch nails. Like it was pretty nuts. Uh, that was a job that I learned a lot about art, learned a lot about, uh, just general print processing.

29:06It was very cool for the time. There was five of us and my boss, I'm not going to say his name, kind of wasn't, kind of was an asshole. I'm not going to lie. He sucked. Uh, it's always Gary. Oh yeah. Yeah. So this boss, you know, was very manipulative, told me a lot of different things was like, kind of like you're a young artist. Like you have so much potential, but I want you in this role. I moved into this role, worked at this job with the express intent to focus on art layouts or, uh, art setup within graphic design and within screen printing.

29:43That was my goal because I wanted to further my understanding of graphic design. I was told that that's what I would, uh, get to do. Uh, about four or five months into training for that, I was not learning fast enough for them. So they say, Hey, so we're going to train you to be head printer. That's your only option. You can either be the printer, the guy that prints the t-shirts or you can get out. I go, well, I'm 22 living in a city I've never lived in before. Uh, I'm going to take the head printer job. So I took the head printer job.

30:14I was miserable. I got blamed for a lot of stuff. It was a lot of like angry, like, why would you use this chemical? Obviously you should be using this. Why are you putting t-shirts on like this? But I don't know anything. I'm young. So I kind of set a goal for myself. Uh, okay, I'm going to work here for X amount of months and then I'm going to leave and try to start doing freelance full time. And all this explanation, all this, uh, backstory to say, so a very significant moment. So the day that I called my boss to leave that job and say, Hey, I just don't think this is working out.

30:49I appreciate the experience, but I think I just want to try something different instead of a goodbye. Instead of a, Oh, you know, it's too bad. We'll miss you. The only thing he says to me is, Hey man, I totally understand. Not everyone's cut out for the art world. And I go, okay, well that lights a fire under my ass or now I have to be cut out for the art world. You know what I mean? And I remember that. Like, did you believe him? Oh no, I don't know. Oh, okay. Yeah. No, I think like I, it was, it was pretty demoralizing.

31:20I'm not going to lie. Cause this is an adult at the time I was younger, right? Like a 40 to 50 year old man who is very successful. Like I will be, you know, I will divulge this old, this will narrow it down a bit. This guy had 150,000 followers and anytime he would do a merch release, it would sell out in like 30 seconds. He, he is like hundreds of thousands of dollars. Like the dude was like rich, really well known friends with like all these different people. So very influential. Okay. So I'm like, damn, well, this feels really bad.

31:52Um, but I left and, uh, that was a year into Philly and I survived three years on my own. No job, just freelancing, doing the whole thing, uh, working with clients. And I remember like, you know, over time it was just like, okay, I worked with Microsoft, check the box. Okay. I worked with Adobe, check the box. Okay. I worked with JBL, check the box. Like it just kept kind of compounding and I'm like, you know what, maybe I am cut out for the art world. Like I knew I was, I felt like I was, but like, you know, what, who are you to like dictate what I am and am not capable of?

32:28Like for me, this just doesn't feel right. And to look back on that now, like, I'm glad that he said that. I really am. Cause I think that that drove me further. Yeah, absolutely. Like if I would have just left and he would have been like, oh, well, good luck on your travels. Like, I don't know if I would have been as driven as I was out of frustration than I was out of just like, you know, a happy ending, if that makes sense. Flowing ad budget on metrics that look great till the CFO sees them. That's bull spend and marketers are calling it out in dashboard confessions.

33:01I remember telling my boss, it'll be good for the brand when leads were slow. Yeah, it, it wasn't. Cut the bull spend. LinkedIn lets you target by company, job title, and more. Advertise on LinkedIn. Spend $250 on your first campaign and get a $250 credit. Go to linkedin.com slash campaign terms and conditions apply.

33:23The perfect lunch combo. That first bite of your favorite sub followed by ice cold Pepsi. Add a couple of friends and now that's next level. Suddenly, the laughs get louder. The stories keep flowing. And the food tastes better. Because Pepsi brings out more flavor, more fun, and more of the moment. Food deserves Pepsi. Grab a Pepsi Zero Sugar today. Well, you're, you're, thank God, I feel like you're, you had enough resilience and strength to, like, let that make a positive.

33:55You turned it into a positive. You turned it into a positive. And sometimes I, I really hate when I hear someone of that status or that age or that degree in the industry say something so just ending, career ending to somebody. Yeah. Someone could have been, maybe, you know, could have really taken that to heart and gone and found something totally different. So I think you got to be careful. Anyone that's, you know, I, I, we're all next in line. So, you know, it's like, there's always people in front of you and there's always people behind you. So be conscious of like how you mentor someone or give them a degree.

34:27Because it's interesting. You nailed it. It, that was his perspective of what the art industry is. And he's no, no one person is big enough to talk about the entire industry and if you're cut out for it or not. So what he saw was whatever his high pressure kind of like crazy schedule of a, of a business was. Right. And that role he needed you in was not correct, but not you. Right. And, and, and, you know, like, even if you are a person that maybe steps away from the art world from a profession and maybe does it as a hobby or you move into something different, that also can be the right thing.

35:03I mean, I'm sure there are a lot of non-creatives that probably watch the show and that like have thought about hopping into it from a hobby perspective or maybe dabbling their toes in it after leaving the high school art class or whatever. And like, you know, even if you're like a lawyer watching this or if you're a fast food worker or if you're a, you know, line cook, like there is no like right way, I think. Right. Like, and I think there, there is no right place, right time.

35:36Good thing. Like, I like to believe that things line up the way that they do. And like the universe has a lot of stuff in store for us. Like, I like to believe that, but in actuality, like it's just, I think it's a roll of the dice, man. I really do. I think you get lucky and I think you make shots when you try to make shots and you put all you can into it. And, you know, if, if it works, it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't. And then you move on to the next thing. Like, but you just continue to have fun and, and, you know, try to further your growth and further yourself and, and give yourself some slack.

36:07You know what I mean? Yeah. Speaking of rolling the dice, where did the move to Canada and leaving Philly behind talk about that? And that's the, that was really a great part of the story when you and I were talking. Yeah. I was like, man, the way you set it up, that's what started this whole thing of going, let's talk. So where did that happen? What happened and why?

Moving to Calgary

36:30Yeah. Yeah. So that's a really fun story. So, uh, I am married now. Uh, but at the time this was in 2022, 2021, I, uh, I was posting TikToks all the time. I was working in my studio. I was having a ton of fun. And I get a little DM in my TikTok and my Instagram saying, oh, hi, my name is Joanna. I'm a nurse. Uh, I also enjoy at the time I was posting about this card game that I liked a lot, Magic the Gathering.

37:00And you seem really cool. I just got out of a long-term relationship. This was not meant to be forward or leading. Uh, and at the time I was not, uh, as she said, I was kind of censoring myself and I want to branch out and become friends with more people online. I know it's a weird time. I know it's whatever, but I'd love to be friends. So I add her on Instagram, add her on TikTok. And it's just like, I, you know, 2021, I think this isn't that crazy to be like meeting friends online, especially like lockdown, peak lockdown.

37:32Um, so we played a lot of games together. Like we played Magic the Gathering together. We would watch movies together. And obviously that developed into kind of like some, some kind of mixed feelings, like crush type stuff, uh, which turned into me coming to visit her first, which is, was like a total shot in the dark. I had moved to Philly at this point. I was in Philly for about two months and I'm like flying. We had been talking for nine months. I'm like, okay, like she could just chop me up and kill me right now. Like I, this is a lot of pressure.

38:03It's a 13 hour flight. You know, this is pretty scary, but we get there. I meet her family. I meet her mom and dad. Uh, you know, we, we have a great time. I'm here for two weeks. I extend my stay for four, for four weeks. We just were having so much fun. And then from there, like our relationship blossomed where we were bouncing back and forth. Uh, she initially was going to move to Pennsylvania, to Philly, uh, for travel nursing, but ended up just with her health and with the bureaucracy of the United States ended up being a little

38:35more difficult than we would have liked to. So I made the decision, Hey, like I am a freelancer. I have a lot of opportunity. I love new things. Like I like doing, like having a fresh start. Uh, I'll move there. So we, in 2024, we packed all my stuff up with the express intent to move to, uh, to Calgary, Alberta. So Western Canada, I talked to a lawyer about like, you know, what are my options in terms of supporting myself, which are pretty extremely limited.

39:08Um, but I, um, yeah, I flew out here and I've been living here for about two years, uh, about four months after I moved here, we got married pretty, not like sporadically, but we, we eloped and it was a ton of fun. And from there, it's just been me kind of building my name up in the art scene, um, building my name up within my niche of, of card games and, um, accessories. And I've grown so much here, uh, that like, I couldn't have imagined it going any other

39:43way. If that makes sense. It's been exclusively beneficial moving here. It's been pretty nuts. Sounds like, do you feel like there was a cap over you and now it's been released in some way in the new city? Yeah, I would say so. I think being in South Carolina, there was a cap. There was a, I am not a traditional artist. I will never have my art in museums. And that's, that is the scene for, um, South Carolina. So I said, okay, I need to move somewhere where I have a bit more of a higher scope.

40:13Then I go to Philly and like, sure. Philly was extremely beneficial for me. I was doing a lot of cool stuff, but even then it's like, you could throw a dart at the wall and you could find 50 other people that do the exact same style that I do because we're so close to New York. It's so highly populated and you just, it felt almost kind of pointless. Like I worked four years to kind of build up my identity in Philly. And even then I had barely, barely scratched the surface.

40:43I mean, I, I was not in the livable wages off of my, uh, like my designs off of my, you know, things like that. Uh, then I moved to Calgary and it's just like a whole new world has opened up to me. This is a city that is very art centric. We have bump festival. We have TIFF. We have SIF. We have the, all these like very art centric things, but it just feels like there's not a lot, well, I don't want to, I don't want to discount the artists, but it feels like there's a select few amount of artists that are market ready, that are selling ready, that

41:19are professional ready. A lot of people here, and I think that has a lot to do with the government of it being not really focused on it when the past few years of me moving here, it being something that's a little more highlighted. There's just a lot more opportunities like in, and, and you see such a diverse margin of artists here to where, you know, I feel like a medium sized fish in a, in a massive pond that's being greatly schooled by TikTok and Instagram and Philly.

41:53Like I was carrying off of having 150,000 followers on TikTok. Like that helped me a lot of just having credibility. Where moving to Calgary, it's like, I'm a stranger. No one knows I have TikTok. No one knows I have Instagram. I'm starting completely from scratch. I'm not on anyone's algorithms and I've made as much progress in Calgary within six months of growing my brand and my person and my identity as I have four years in Philly. You know what I mean? Four whole years. It feels crazy to me.

42:24It makes so much sense. That's what, that's what really interested me in this story. It was like, in most cases, when, when I talk to folks that are in smaller cities, let's say, um, it's the, it's the, the job market that's always at, or the, or there's no art community there. Those are the challenges and they're dying to move to the big city. And, and so your, your thing was a little bit opposite. And then one thing I always like, I always talk about, particularly even here too, is so many people think automatically just because I'm in Los Angeles, that it's this incredible

42:56artistic community. And, and granted it is, but it's so hard to navigate it because LA is so pocketed. And so you can look at a small area where you live and it's, it, it could be considered a really small town that doesn't have a lot, but then God forbid you're searching for a job. Yeah. There's 4,000 people that can do exactly what you do. So exactly. Your, your thing there was so, such an interesting kind of like detour in a lot of ways. And yeah, I love that, you know, your, even the way you described it, I was going to ask

43:30you that idea of like, what kind of a fish are you? And what kind of a pond are you? And the way you said it was perfect because it's, you're right. Like, so my question to you is how would you, what would you put on a list?

43:43One to five, like that are things you have, like, I think the, you, it almost sounds like you take more risks because of this. What, what are those things that you, you think you're doing better or differently that are attributing to maybe this, not just success, but I could just tell it in your, your demeanor, how happy you are with this thing. What, what are you doing differently?

Manufacturing and markets in Canada

44:06So the, the biggest thing, like number one, like zero even is Calgary is a place where you can walk into a store. And if you're like, Hey, I have these art card token packs that I want to sell to you, or, Hey, I have, uh, you can't really see these, but like, I have these custom dice that I have packaged up that I want to sell to you. Or, Hey, I have these enamel pins that I would love to send out at consignment.

44:36You can walk into a store, say, I would like to sell this in your store. And at least from my experience, 85% of the time they'll go, Oh, you're ready. Yeah, of course. Let's go. Like you just sign the contract, you get in, you go right. Like, and it's insane to me that people are eager to take on local business, but that it's not so oversaturated that you're on like the chopping block of like, Oh, well, you have to wait for these 20 other people that also are doing business out here.

45:09And I think that has a lot to do with my niche. Right. I think that's important to, uh, kind of highlight like here is like, I am in a very, very niche market of card games. I'm just very lucky that that niche market has like, Oh, like four digit, like people, like thousands of people within my city that appreciate that market. If that makes sense. So that would be number one. Um, number two is the manufacturing scene in Canada is unbelievable, unbelievable.

45:48And I think that has a lot to do with how things have been set up to where, I don't know if you know this about Canada. I learned about this when I moved here, whenever you purchase something outside of Canada, you have to pay an import tax. Yes. Uh, as a consumer, which is infuriating. So I understand the reason, like they want to keep business within Canada, but because of that, that has opened up a lot of manufacturing within Canada. So for instance, if I want to make mouse pads, there is a store in Canada, in Calgary that

46:19I can go into, talk to the manufacturer, get things set up, get a, uh, whatever you call it, get like a, uh, wholesale rate and rock and roll be ready. They'll have it ready. Talk on Monday, have it ready by Friday. That's like a dream scenario. Yeah. Yes. Wow. And that's, and that's like truly like just everything I could hope for being able to not only work with a manufacturer, but be able to be so within the weeds of how things are manufactured that I can say, no, I want you to do this.

46:49I want the chain. And it's, and it's not unwelcome. That's so lovely. The third thing, and this is like the most important, and I, I'm going to get a lot of hate from Canadians and you know what? I understand. I get it. It sucks. The conversion rate has helped me so much having a job that pays in USD and manufacturing within Canada, things are inherently cheaper. Good. Um, okay. There's a, there's about a 30% margin difference of, of conversion for the strength of the U S dollar.

47:20So me being the person I am with making the amount of money that I do, I don't have infinite money. Like I have bills and I have taxes and I have these things that I have to, I have moved across the country. There's things that I have to recover from, but being able to just say, oh, well, if I want to get X amount of units and I'm paying, you know, 1000 Canadian versus 1000 U S I'm saving $300. Yeah. You know what I mean? There's nothing wrong with that. Huge difference. Yeah. Which is lovely. Um, and honestly the, I would say the last two things maybe is like, I feel like the,

47:55the climate of Canada as a whole versus the U S in the U S from every market I've ever done. I feel like I'm having to convince someone my credibility of why you should buy my art, which I don't think is a bad thing. I think it is, it is a testament to the climate. I think it is a testament to the financial situation. I totally understand. Uh, why would you want to spend 20 bucks on a t-shirt that I made when you can go to hot topic or whatever? Um, in Canada, it's not the same.

48:26It's very interesting. People are like, oh, you are a local artist. So I am going to support you, which I think is really, really like a testament to Canada as a whole, wonderful, fantastic community that just have money ready to support people. And they deeply care about their scenes and their community. And I cannot, I cannot highlight that enough. Like that, that it is the people, 1000% the people that like, that's the only reason I'm like here doing the thing that I'm doing, continuing, like has nothing to do with me.

49:01Uh, and branching off of that is the amount of people that are so open and willing to not. Blowing ad budget on metrics that look great till the CFO sees them. That's bull spend. And marketers are calling it out in dashboard confessions. I remember telling my boss, it'll be good for the brand when leads were slow. Yeah, it, it wasn't. Cut the bull spend. LinkedIn lets you target by company, job title, and more. Advertise on LinkedIn.

49:32Spend $250 on your first campaign and get a $250 credit. Go to linkedin.com slash campaign terms and conditions apply. The perfect lunch combo. That first bite of your favorite sub, followed by ice cold Pepsi. Add a couple of friends and now that's next level. Suddenly, the laughs get louder, the stories keep flowing, and the food tastes better. Because Pepsi brings out more flavor, more fun, and more of the moment. Food deserves Pepsi. Grab a Pepsi Zero Sugar today.

50:05Um, what's the word? Pigeonhold is the word I'm, I'm, if it's in my brain. But I think the word I'm looking for is gatekeep. Yeah. Yeah. There, there is very little gatekeeping in Canada. Uh, I, I didn't really experience that too much in the U.S. But I think the, the, the amount of knowledge that I have been given here, comparatively, I'm like, oh, this is like what it could be like. I'm like, hey, you got this done here. What manufacturer did you go to? Oh, I went to this manufacturer. I worked with this person. These are the parameters and the settings.

50:36Have fun. You know what I mean? It's just so much easier to get information. Um, and I sound like I'm glazing Canada. I'm more just talking from the perspective of someone that has worked very, very, very, very hard to build their brand for years in Philly. Um, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and

51:22But that idea is that you get to choose these things. And that's a big move. I think it took a lot of courage to see what was on the other side. But it sounds like you already were, like, maybe kind of set up to be that risk taker already, you know? Yeah, and there's, like, strategic things I've done to kind of mitigate the loss. So, like, I have a, you know, obviously, you know, to the viewers in the home, I can't work within Canada.

51:56That's a huge thing right now with my residency at the moment. So even though I get things manufactured in Canada, I have a U.S. shipping and supplier. I work with a U.S. shipping and supplier. So I will have those things shipped to him. So I'm still operating my business completely legally within the United States with a business within the U.S. So things like that help me so much of, like, being able to do those things. And even once things get figured out, right, being able to ship from the U.S. to Canada is cheaper than shipping within Canada or from Canada to the U.S.

52:32So, like, things like that are super helpful. Just having the space, having a family that is willing to donate a guest room, which is this room right now, to me being able to set up my printer, set up my streaming setup, and be able to work and not pay for a studio, right? Like, I think that is, like, something that I've been very privileged and thankful for that I've been given this opportunity. Like, there's a lot of factors, a lot of moving parts to it. Oh, yeah.

53:03If someone out there doesn't have that, like, maybe built-in Jacob courage there, how would you give them the move? What would you say to, like, take a big move?

Advice on taking risks

53:17What's the advice? Um, I'm always a firm believer of, like, the worst thing that can happen is you can just go back to the thing that you were doing before. You know what I mean? Like, maybe don't quit your six-figure corporate lawyer job to do this. But, like, you know. Not just yet. Yeah, but, like, you know, if you're working at, like, I don't know, like, Starbucks, and you're like, well, I have enough money saved up to support myself, but, and I want to pursue this dream, but I just need a little more time.

53:50Like, I kind of want to quit. Like, quit the job. Like, obviously, there's a hiring freeze, and there's some stuff like that. But, like, you know, within reason, quit the job, especially if you have any form of seniority, you can always go back. If things don't work out, just, you know, you can go back. Or if you have family that's willing to support you, you can kind of rely on that. But take the risk because, you know, I think the fear of failure is way more scary than actually failing, right? Like, when you fail, you kind of just, well, I didn't work out.

54:22I just do the next thing. You know what I mean? So true. Yeah. All right, dude, I got a new last question for every guest. Are you ready? I'm ready. If this episode is the only thing someone ever hears from you, what do you want them to walk away believing about building the durable creative career?

Building a durable creative community

54:41That's such a good question. I have to think. I feel like this is like. Because you picked durability. Yeah. That's Jacob. This is my. What's the one thing? This is a mantra to walk away from. I had a feeling it would, you'd think about this because I feel like you are kind of playing a lot of different roles. You're wearing a lot of different hats. So I think it's almost a matter of like, which one rises to the top? What's the one advice thing you would give someone that really helps build that durable career, especially in our future?

55:15Yeah. Honestly, realistically, as much as I want to say stay driven or like, you know, keep doing the stuff, do the stuff first. Like, I genuinely think in any aspect, if you can connect to a community within your niche, that will propel you 80 fold and make strategic steps within those communities to do things that can further your exposure.

55:49Sure. And, and, but, but being authentic, right? So like, you know, if I have someone that I can bring on to Adobe Live, if I have any skin in the game, being able to bring that person into the fold, I know is kind of paying it forward. Because, hey, getting into the Adobe space is very difficult. It's lovely. They're great people, but it is hard. And for me, if that's something I can provide to someone to get them, you know, a little bit of extra money in the month and get them exposure with Adobe, that's awesome.

56:24And there's been many times, not that I expect this, where in the interim, it's, oh, well, I have this connection within this community, so I'd love to pay it back or whatever. In that sense, I would love to, you know, push you in this direction. And those opportunities come and go and you can take and you can give. But I think it's important to, you know, just be supportive within a community because even if, if there is no take from it, you can be known as the person that supports the people within this community.

56:59You can build up your brand as someone that really cares about the arts, really cares about support, really cares about the people around you and is not gatekeepy, is not like, you know, someone that is just all about, I want it my way. Like, I want to, I want to be the one that succeeds. I think that's very important to, to approach those things in a very humble way because, yeah, I know, there's, there's a lot of opportunities out there. There's a lot of cool things to do. There's a lot of cool people to support and a lot of cool friends to have.

57:29And I'm very thankful that through Magic, through Riffbound, through Adobe, through Adobe Max, through streaming, like I get to have a lot of art friends. But, you know, I recognize that there's some people that may not have those opportunities, but that doesn't mean that those communities aren't out there, right? Yeah, that is a great answer, man. One of my favorite lines I heard at a creative event we went to a few weeks ago was, no closed circles. Yes. I love that idea.

57:59And that's, and you, it's funny when this woman said it to us, we were sitting at what was a round table. Oh, that's so funny. But was it, what was interesting, it had the couch around it where it had the open area where you can get in, right? So it was almost this, like, perfectly made gathering spot where there, there's always an opening if someone wanted to join. And I know that feeling, man. Like, I've been on both sides of that thing, wanting to join it and also being like the person that's like, hey, come, dude, the door's open. Come on in. Like, there's no, you know, there's no gatekeeping here.

58:31And so, yeah, that's the way, man. I think community and in real life are the two biggest futures of our industry that are going to explode. And I agree. Do something in your town. Go to a town nearby that might have these things that you feel like you're missing. Because it is truly the backbone of your career, your happiness, your, God, everything, you know? Yeah. Truly, your opportunities, the opportunities you might give to somebody else, it's all a two-way street.

59:03Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the more markets you go to, the more markets they do. The more people that you put money into the pockets of, the more people can put money into your pockets, right? Like, it is a, it is a, like, circle. It is a, it is a closed loop that the more that you give support, the more support that is, that is given out. And it's not one-to-one, right? Like, you shouldn't expect those things. True. But I think that just being in that mindset of, like, I would love to support people in any way that I can, when I can, is so important.

59:34A lot of less, less taking, more giving, right? I think in that case. There it is. You can end it right there, dude. Yeah. Bro, Jacob, I'm so glad we were able to do this, dude. And I'm so glad we are buddies. Like, honestly, man, I can't wait to hang with you in real life again. Yes, yes, I can't wait to do it. Seriously. I think this is going to make a huge difference and impact to a lot of people. So I really appreciate you coming on and talking, man. Well, thank you so much. And thank you for having me. And I really appreciate it. And I don't know. You asked some really good questions. Made me think today. Made me think pretty hard today. That's my job.

1:00:06Sweet. All right, buddy. Thanks so much. Yeah, thank you.

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