Inside a Real Rebrand

Next Level Podcast returns

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0:30USAA knows dynamic duos can save the day, like superheroes and sidekicks, or auto and home insurance. With USAA, you can bundle your auto and home and save up to 10%. Tap the banner to learn more and get a quote at usaa.com slash bundle. Restrictions apply. All right, guys. Welcome to episode 14 of the Next Level Podcast here on the DGDC Network.

1:02I am your host, Tom Loro, and I have a returning guest and a new guest today. How are y'all doing? Great. Can't complain. We have Natter here, who was here last year. We did an episode together. And then we're here with a mutual friend, Zach West. And today we're going to be doing something really special, which I'll get into in a minute.

Meet the guests

1:26But Natter, why don't you reintroduce yourself? And then Zach, you can tell everybody what you do. And then, yeah, we'll tell everybody how that kind of overlaps with what we're going to be talking about today. Sure, yeah. So I'm Natter Borai, and I run NBD Co., which is a small, independent studio that focuses on branding and holistic brand application, essentially. Anything from kind of the ground up.

1:57And yeah, that's our day-to-day for the most part.

2:03I'm Zach West. I'm the owner, founder, formulator of a company based out of Eatontown, New Jersey called Shea Revival. We are a barber-made and tested, all-naturally-derived self-care company. So we make all different products, everything from hair care to skin care and everything in between. Awesome. And just to kind of segue into that, so the reason why Natter and I even know each other is because of Zach. And Zach and Natter go back further than I know Zach.

2:36So it's just kind of this triangle of, like, I know this person, you should meet this person. And then, you know, we all just kind of became mutual friends, which I love. And we had kind of, we had been discussing an episode like this for a while. I know Natter and I, after even, like, the last record that we did, were like, oh, we should get back on, we should do something else. And I was like, oh, I would love to do a roundtable discussion on the rebrand of Shea Revival because, first of all, like, it's a product that I think everyone in this record uses.

3:07Obviously, Zach, I hope you use it as yours. But I just, I loved it because just the idea of, like, friends making things for other friends and the rebrand was so good when you rolled it out. And I think it's had a lot of, like, celebration and especially on, like, social media and how it's being used in the barber community. And I just think it's really good for people to understand that, you know, a brand designer just does not roll out an awesome logo package that goes on Instagram.

3:39And then everybody's like, oh, my God, like, there's a client connection, there are meetings, there are things that happen in that gray space in between where you get from, hey, I would love for you to design something for me, bud. And then we get to labels and stuff for actual and packaging, right? Yeah, it was the most incredible and also, like, most daunting thing. And I mean that in the best way.

4:12I know it sounds negative, but it really makes you take a step back and be like, like, I had never done anything like the process that we did with Natter before. And it was the most incredible thing. I really had to take a step back and be like, all right, so where do I see this thing? Like, how we really had to, like, and honestly, all the credit goes to Natter on that. Like, the way that NBD does business and the way that they speak to their clients and work for their clients is unbelievable.

4:45Like, it really made me have to be so introspective on where I wanted to see things. And Natter just, and credit to Natter, still does it to this day, just takes my ramblings of all of these ideas and just kind of runs with it. And I'm, like, I'm super thankful for it. It was unreal. What, I mean, talk a little bit more about what Sheer Revival is and kind of how it started, Zach, and, you know, what the ethos of the brand is.

5:19Because I think that plays into a big part of what everything looks like now and also what, like, why it needed that shift into what it is today.

Origins of Shear Revival

5:29Sure, absolutely. So, Sheer Revival started in 2013. I literally started the company out of my apartment. And I have been a barber for 20 years now. And the whole process really came about naturally. When I first started doing hair, I really wanted to, really, really just immediately fell in love with products. There was one product line in particular that I was using at a salon that I first started at.

6:01And I just fell in love with it. That they were using all plant-derived ingredients and all of these things. Like, the family was cosmetic chemists, so they were formulating everything themselves. It was just phenomenal. And I really fell in love with that and wanted to kind of run with that same sort of thing. But it was always like, oh, well, you need a million dollars in a lab and all this stuff. So, I just was like, oh, okay. Like, that'll be a thing when I eventually just come into a million dollars down the road. You know, like everyone does.

6:33So, over time, I started using some more self-care products in my routine. Especially, like, you know, beard oils and things like that. And I kept trying all the stuff that I wasn't really sold on. And I was like, I bet I could probably make this. It's just oil. It'll be fine. And I ordered a bunch of stuff off Amazon and was like, oh, I can just do this at home. It'll be all right. And I made so much of it. I ended up giving it to a lot of my friends to try out.

7:06And everybody's like, oh, you should start selling it and see how it goes. And it just literally, like, from there just kind of spiraled out of control of me just like being like, oh, well, if I can make this, I could probably make this. And then I could probably make this. I'd make this. And now, you know, shortening the story a ton, that's how this happened. You know, somewhere in between there, I did take a cosmetic chemistry course with a local cosmetics lab and things like that. But, you know, that's either here or there. But the way that all of this started, I, once I really started getting underway and being like, okay, this is really something.

7:42We started working with a different graphic designer. His name is Dan King. He is a phenomenal graphic designer, a really amazing person. I'm very thankful for his time helping get our brand off the ground.

7:57And Dan took my visions and did this almost like a Frank Lloyd Wright sort of version, like tons of iconography and things like that with the original branding. And as time went on and things started going, the brand started taking off more, we felt like we needed something a little bit more consistent, something a little bit different to kind of like set us apart and fill things out a little. On top of the fact that Dan was doing this all freelance and he just, Dan really just didn't have a lot of time to be able to handle things the way that we were speeding up and ramping up.

8:34So Natter and I have been friends for a very long time. And Natter has done work for, I think, every musical project I've been in since like 2010, maybe. I think so. So Natter was just the natural choice. And we started talking about what that process would look like. And it just kind of turned into this like really beautiful, amazing thing that I am so grateful for because it really did take sheer revival and make us focus on what the basis of the company is.

9:12And it then turned into this amazing aesthetic for us. Yeah, yeah, that's pretty much how we got here design wise.

The rebrand timeline

9:22Yeah, I think Natter, to your point, how long does a project like this typically take? Like from start to finish, I know you guys are still working on things. Obviously, there's new treatments and stuff. But like what like what is a project like this take from from the beginning to end? I think sheer revival took in terms of time. I think it might have taken about six months. OK. Yeah, that's not right. So I think so. It's funny because it feels like it took two weeks or three years.

9:54You know what I mean? Like the the the the process to really hone things in. I think it took about six months. I know we started I think we started in early 2021. Yeah. And then by 2022, I think was the full rollout. Yeah, we had kind of worked on, I think, in in certain phases as well, which. Yeah. Got us into that 2022 mark. But yeah, in terms of timing, yeah, I mean, our typical process is somewhere between three

10:29to six months for projects. Obviously, as if you can do it faster, it's amazing. But we try to, you know, put in as much research and development as we can. And then especially with with Zach and Jess, knowing them using the product for such a long time, like I had bought, I think, some of the first iteration that Zach was talking about in terms of the beard oil when it was called Sawbones.

10:59I still have some of this packaging in my house as well. And I love the brand, you know, so I felt like I'm a user of the brand. I'm a friend of Zach and Jess. Yeah. I wanted to put so much into it to make sure that it was everything they wanted it to be. And that's how I feel about every project as well. Being friends with somebody, I want to make sure that we deliver even more. And so that definitely takes it from like, hey, you know, our typical contract is like,

11:36maybe we do between three to five custom logo types. I think we delivered 10. Yeah. And you did not make it easy. Yeah. The the the variation on everything was absolutely incredible. And it was like from start to finish. Yeah. There was there was so much that we had to go through in like the best way. It made it so difficult because it was like. This logo is phenomenal, but this one's really great. What about this one? I could see all of these. Yeah.

12:07Yeah. Now, I know, you know, we had discussed, obviously, like you have like a whole presentation that like goes through everything. If you want to share that, we can kind of walk through kind of iterations and, you know, how you got to the packaging. And, you know, Zach, like, obviously, I want you to weigh in about how you and Jess chose the story and the narrative and how it all kind of plays out through this. Because there's like a lot of stuff that like Natter and I were talking about, just like of like little Easter eggs of things, you know, that play into the color palettes and stuff.

12:43And I just think it's so well done. And obviously, I know Natter is a very talented designer because I've seen a ton of his work. But it's just like so clear, like how much love was put into the rebranding that, you know, I want everybody to be able to see it. Thanks, man. Yeah. Natter did a phenomenal job. So a lot of the a lot of our products, names and things all come from either pop culture references or things that are super important to me, things that hit me at a certain time.

13:22So that was like something that we had going into this to leverage to help with the design process. So like I had said, when Dan originally did the artwork, there was like iconography that he used where Natter kind of just heightened that with the new design work and the new look. Sure. Yeah. And I think that was I mean, we'll definitely get into like the visuals a lot more.

13:53But that was like such an important piece of it. Like Dan did such a good job. And I also met Dan, thanks to Zach as well.

14:04But he did such a great job with the original branding and labels. That I mean. Let's be real. I look at comments now and people are still like, I love the old branding. Bring that back. So like I know people loved it. I loved it. But but yeah, I think there were big shoes to fill and knowing where Zach and Jess wanted to take things.

14:35And being so near and dear to the brand, it made, you know, trying to navigate that space, you know, such a huge and interesting process to get there. And there's so much that we went into to, you know, between, you know, just like dumb ideas to like, let me try to connect the dots here and kind of make something happen.

15:05And just like pitch it as like a, here's just a raw idea to like, let me execute a couple of different things. You know, try to bring that to life and see what they think, because there were so many different ways that we could take it. And, you know, we wanted to use what Dan had as a jumping off point and kind of, you know, evolve it from there. Totally. Yeah, it was a it was a very. A very like.

15:35Wild process that we didn't have. A clear cut, concise look in mind, we just knew we wanted something to take us to the next level and something to to really kind of take a step up and. Yeah, really, this this whole process that it was funny, I haven't I haven't looked at this since we did this. And just going back on this brought me back to this, like, moment of like.

16:06Oh, my God, I can't I can't believe like we started here and this is where we ended up. Yeah. So also, while you guys are talking and you said that, you know, I introduced you to Dan, I'm like, I just need to get a T-shirt that just says all my best friends are graphic designers. And I think Tom and I need all all my best friends are musicians. There you go. It's just it goes together, you know, it's like peanut butter and jelly, man.

16:40Bands and graphic designers like this. Yeah, because, you know, especially because bands have such, you know, massive budgets to help pay the bill. Yeah. So it's great. Yeah, but, you know, you make up for it in like exposure and like. Yeah, man, of course, those exposure bucks are huge. Dude, 150 bucks goes a long way. Yeah, it sure does. I scream, you scream, todos gritamos, porque el famoso small classic Frosty de Wendy's está solo un dólar por tiempo limitado.

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Discovery and mood boards

18:14But Zach, like, did you come, did you and Jess come into this with, like, reference imagery for Natter? Or did you just kind of say, like, okay, this is the vibe that we're looking at. Go nuts and build us some mood boards and we'll just kind of pick and choose. No, so to Natter's credit, like, we really didn't have a concise thing going into this. We just, we had ideas and Natter's, like, discovery process for all of this really, like, I think you, what was it?

18:46You have a questionnaire. Yep. That you normally have people fill out. I think it was called the discovery, right? Yep. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So they, they have a discovery that they normally have us fill out. And it just really kind of spiraled as we kept going. And you could, you could see during the entire process, we went from here. And then the next step went here. And then almost, like, the next step, we were, like, okay, we're, like, almost there already somehow.

19:18And it, it was, it was, like, an unbelievable experience having that and being able to walk through that. We felt like we were in amazing hands the entire time. And there wasn't, there wasn't a point during the process where we were, like, I don't know if this is going to work. Like, the whole time, it was more of the opposite, where it was, like, there's so many options. What are we going to do?

19:43Yeah. I like to think of it as, like, when you go to the eye doctor and they're, like, one, two, you know, and, like, it starts to, like, get clearer and clearer as, as, like, they start clicking more buttons, whatever the hell that process is exactly. But, you know, as they dial everything in, you know, the vision becomes a little bit clearer. But, yeah, as Zach kind of said, we start off with a questionnaire that is part of our discovery. And we break everything into, like, three phases, essentially.

20:14So, our research and discovery, our conceptual design, and then our, like, refinement and finalization. And so, in that first phase, really dialing in that questionnaire to have a lot of different questions that are something that, for us, the parts and pieces we can take, and we can use that to fuel the mood boards that we're going to create.

20:48And then, also, at the same time, one of the things that is super important to us is having a values-based direction. So, everything that we do then comes down to, you know, this, like, core brand drivers area, which are just, like, your brand values, essentially. And we detail them out through, like, attributes, personality, culture, goals.

21:17But we use those as sort of, like, our North Star, in a way, and use that to gut check the project every step of the way. And then, through our collaborative mood boarding process, we present these, like, it might be, like, 30 pages of mood boards, but they're all sectioned out by logo, illustrations, you know, whatever else. And then, we start honing it down into, like, what is liked, what is disliked, why.

21:49And then, we take notes on that. We, you know, present that back into a condensed deck. And so, what you're seeing here are a couple of the condensed slides that were things that were liked. This was top left is, you know, where Sure Revival was. And then, right next to it, to the right, is sort of the visual mood board that we kind of consolidated things down into.

22:19It kind of came down to this, like, clean style that had some personality, but also had some simplicity to it as well. And I think, you know, one of the important things, especially as we looked at their competitors, was, like, really finding, and this is kind of where we come to, like, these three stacked over here on the right side. These three takeaways that we used to kind of function as the foundation of the work that we were going to do,

22:57which were to find balance between cleanliness and character, you know, have a cohesive brand experience. Because I think that through, like, collaborations and some other things like that, I think there were some areas that Zach and Jess were like, hey, like, we love what we have, but, like, sometimes when we work with another brand, you know, they kind of just throw their own font on there and just write Sure Revival or whatever. We kind of want to make it a little more official than that. And then growth and warmth don't have to be diametrically opposed.

23:28So, you know, we still wanted it to be warm, but we didn't want it to be too cold because as we kind of looked at the landscape, some of the brands that get a little bit bigger start to, like, lose a lot of that warmth and personality. And so we were trying to find that balance between sort of the two directions that emerged in a way that, if I remember correctly, Zach and Jess were really liking was, like, there's this cleanliness

24:01that some of the competitors had, but there's a point where it becomes, like, medicinal looking. And then there's, like, the fun illustrative stuff, and then there's a point where that becomes, like, too loud and too distracting. So trying to find that, you know, that bullseye in the center, essentially, was where we wanted to go.

24:28Yeah, I think it's, like you were saying, Natter, the space, especially for cosmetic stuff, it really, it pulls so drastically in two opposite directions. It's either so clinical or it's way too loud. And, I mean, but I guess, like, the thing is you're competing for shelf space in, you know, like, national chain stores or whatever or, like, pharmacies where, like, a lot of these brands are, like, we have to be the first thing that your eye goes to. So it's either, now it feels, like, stark white or, like, a clear bottle or the loudest, like, neon pink or yellow

25:08that you can see. But what I think is really special about what Sheer Revival is is it's, you know, it's very, it's still very, like, it has, like, a homemade feel to it, you know? The vibe of the brand is very, like, grassroots, and I love that that carries through because the aesthetic, like, as you go through this stuff, I think you'll see it's very elevated. It's very, it's got, like, a big personality, but it's refined.

25:40It's not quite so one or the other. It kind of, it toes the line of both sides where it's bold, but it's also very, very, like, tailored and specific.

25:55Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think that was super important for Zach and Jess, and I think he could speak to that a little bit more because I think they had some ideas coming in about that. Definitely. I mean, like, at the end of the day, we are, we're an e-commerce brand. We are, like, we are sold on the shelves of shops and brick-and-mortar stores, you know, like, barbershops, salons, things like that, and so we want to connect with people.

26:28I don't really have a vision of Sure Revival ever being on the shelves of a Walmart or Target or anything like that. Like, I want to be, when you buy our stuff in person, I want someone to be able to talk to you about it and tell you about the product and have that vision of, like, hey, this would be great for you because of this. Like, have that interaction, that personal interaction. So, to us, there wasn't this thing of, like, oh, it needs to be super clean or it needs to be super loud.

27:00It's, at the end of the day, we wanted personality there. We wanted that hand-in-hand sort of feel.

27:08And even on top of that, like, I'm, like, I love having this sort of look where it's, like, you notice the little things on the labels and they stand out to you and you can look at something and go, wait, is that this thing or does this mean this? And it kind of opens up that mindset or that conversation a little bit. And, yeah, Natter did a phenomenal job with taking these, you know, ramblings of a madman

27:41and creating these, like, beautiful pieces of art virtually. Like, any one of our label designs, I would gladly hang on my wall. So, yeah, well, Natter, why don't you just, like, walk it through a little bit, just, like, of some of the conceptual stuff and then into the, like, some of the finished product? Yeah, absolutely. So, one thing that I did want to say, too, is so as we kind of go from creating that, like,

28:11values-based approach to everything, then we kind of took it into, you know, trying to write a positioning statement. Not that we need to spend a ton of time on that, but, like, getting that in mind and kind of making sure that we understood exactly what She Revival was and wanted to be.

Custom typography and logos

28:34And I think through that, the nice thing that ended up happening, because we ended up refining it a little bit more over time, was that we landed on, and this was kind of in part to Zach and Jess, I believe. We had, like, I think we had Noble Goods as, like, a subline to, like, describe the brand. And Zach and Jess saw that and were like, what if it was Noble Goods and Habits? And we really loved that and, you know, basically added that into the visual identity.

29:11So, initially starting off, we started with sketches, and then we take the sketches into, you know, different variations. I mean, we had, I think, well over 50 over here of just, like, a couple of different versions of icons. I'm glad everyone could see how hard this was. I'm glad there's a visual now for people to understand when I'm like, I don't know what I'm going to do.

29:43And then we took those and we brought them into, you know, paired them up with custom word marks. So, everything that we do at MBD Co. is custom typography in terms of, like, the logo type or the word mark. Because we feel like that can tie directly back into, you know, the values and kind of, like, using that to shape the branding. As well as our, like, collaborative mood boarding and all that to, you know,

30:14really try to, like, dial in the details and make sure everything is 100% ownable and custom to the brand. And so, these are six of, I think, the 10 logos that were initially presented. And all sorts of different things happening here from, you know, monograms. I think that was one thing that we were talking about as, like, a possibility. Then we had this icon that stuck around for a while and it ended up making its way

30:46into the final visual identity in some form of an icon. But this was sort of, like, a very minimalistic look at, like, essentially what goes into their bottles or their products. And so, it was sort of, like, a simple beaker shape with the, like, a half water droplet, half leaf to kind of symbolize the plant goods that, the plant-derived aspect of everything.

31:24And then, you know, different takes on, you know, beakers and measurements. And this snake over here, you know, in doing research and everything, I'm forgetting off the top of my head, but there's an ancient Greek. I think it's tied back to that, like, medicinal symbol that you see on ambulances and other places. But that, like, snake that kind of wraps around shields and things like that that you see.

31:58Or swords. Yes, or swords.

32:03So, that was, I have it somewhere. Let me see. I think it was, it's called Porius, I think. And it's, in Greek mythology, it's the symbolic of light, purity, and life. And basically, it's kind of connected to healing and renewal. So, we thought maybe that's a cool aspect of it, like, wrapping around the beaker or the measurement cuff.

32:34And, you know, in the shape of an S, maybe that's something interesting there. And then, to the right of that, we had a version that is an S and an R, but it's also a really minimalistic look at this. It's sort of like a woman's face kind of pointing to the side. And that was a symbolic view of the Greek goddess Hygieia, who's the goddess of health and cleanliness and hygiene.

33:05So, you know, trying to, like, tie in story into it and find, you know, deeper meaning. And, you know, I think there were interesting things about all these that we were really excited about. But I think ultimately where Zach and Jess landed was the best place to take it, which was, you know, here, which ended up being this, you know, fun custom word mark that is, like, slightly tweaked where you have these, you know, these angled crossbars and letter forms within this.

33:48I scream. You scream. Todos gritamos. Porque el famoso Small Classic Frosty de Wendy's está a solo un dólar por tiempo limitado. Más gritos. Happy Screaming. Summer Screaming. Gritando porque el Frosty está a un dólar. Pero, por favor, don't scream en el drive-thru. Le van a doler los oídos a los empleos. Get a $1 Small Classic Frosty por tiempo limitado. Solo en Wendy's. El precio y la participación pueden variar en los Estados Unidos. Solo la carta. No es válido para delivery. Límite de 10 por transacción. El precio puede ser mayor en Alaska y Hawaii.

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34:53It's so funny. Yeah, I mean, it's so funny, like, looking back and seeing all of those logos and things. And, like, there's definitely a couple that almost made it where it was tough, where I was like, no, this is the one that we have to go with. And then, like, looking at this one now, I'm like, oh, this one was a winner from the start. No questions asked. But it's funny, because even listening to Natter just talk about the work and the things that they put into it, it was such a natural pairing with us and NBD from the start because of the way that they work.

35:33Like, Natter having, I'm a very sensitive person and having all of these things that I feel like are part of me. There's stories from things that I love and things that I enjoy be part of me in the products. Like, having someone work on the aesthetics of our business, thinking the same way that we do was like, I mean, you couldn't ask for a better working relationship, you know? Yeah, I totally agree.

36:03Oh, thank you, man. Yeah, dude. Tell you all the time. So many compliments. God. This isn't new. I text them, like, every day. I love you.

36:15That is very true.

36:17But, yeah, I mean, I think also, you know, being somebody who works in the art world, too, you know, like, having that deeper meaning is something that, I think ties in a lot to, like, just the core of who we are, right? Sure. And I think that was a lot of fun exploring that. But ultimately, landing here, I think, like, as both of you said, you know, this was the place to take it.

36:50And looking back at those old ones, you know, there's a part of me when I was putting this deck together, I was like, oh, man, I can't believe we presented this one option because I can't see it being that. Now I can see it only being this because this makes absolute sense. So I'm really glad that we ended up here. And, you know, a lot of that is in part or a lot of that is due to collaboration. And that was one of the that's like one of the biggest parts of what we do at NB Deco is we focus in highly on collaboration.

37:28So the collaborative mood boarding, the discussions, the questionnaire, everything, you know, multiple meetings to discuss anything that is potentially, you know, a question or a sticking point or whatever to see where we can push and pull. And ultimately, Zach and Jess, you know, really guided this to where it needed to be. And, you know, I think together we were able to come up with something that we're all really happy with.

38:01Question. How many meetings do you guys think you had over like the six month period that you were working on this? Oh, geez. Like if you had if you had to ballpark it. In person or on the phone? Um, let's say like or via webcam.

38:18That's there were there were a lot. Yeah. And one of the things I forgot to mention early on, too, was we or I had gone to sheer revivals. Asbury Park location, I think at the time and kind of just observed and kind of took notes, ask questions, things like that for a day or half a day, something like that. Um, because I didn't want to get in their way too much, but, but, you know, kind of observe their process and looked at how they do everything and spoke to some of their employees and things like that.

38:58And obviously spoke to Zach and Jess and, um, but yeah, I think, you know, so that's one meeting, but I think we probably had, I want to say we probably had like at least a meeting a month, if not more. So we probably had six, maybe seven with the, you know, site visit, essentially. Um, but it could have been more than that. I don't know if you remember Zach. I can't remember what happened this morning.

39:29I just, I, I, I, I do remember it being, cause it wasn't even that they were just like, it was a lot of meetings over and over. It was the meetings that we did have were so impactful, um, during the entire process that it was just very, the process was very well thought out and just really kind of helped hone things in. Like, it wasn't just like, uh, Oh, Hey, I just want to touch base.

39:59It was like a, Hey, we're going to be on a call for an hour. We're going through all of these little steps. What do you like? What don't, what don't you like? Okay. Now we're, we've got the logo locked in. Let's start working on labels. We do this. Okay. Do you like this, this, this, this, or this? And like, it was just for, for somebody who like struggles with honing things in and doing stuff like that. I mean, it was, it was a great process. Um, but the meetings, yeah, there was, there was a lot. Good. Okay. No, I think it's just like, I want to stress, especially to like the emerging designers that it's so important to make sure like you're meeting consistently on these projects.

40:40And there's a lot of like collaboration that happens on these. So you have to make sure you're touching base enough that things are being, uh, being heard, being like corresponded to each other. Like it's, it's just important. Um, and I think it just speaks to, you know, Natter's process of how he does things that he really values that. So definitely we've, we've done like one-off projects and small things with, with other graphic designers and other things like that since working with Natter.

41:13And it's, it's funny to see everybody's like different little processes, but like this, I mean, obviously an undertaking like this, where you're doing an entire rebrand, it's a, it's a, it's a giant thing, but yeah. And it's, it's, it's amazing to see how everybody does their own little thing. Totally. Yeah. All right. Natter, I'm sorry. I derailed you. You can keep going. Oh, no worries, man. It's, it's like you said, it's, we're, we're flowing in and out of conversation. So I think it's great.

Packaging and pop culture Easter eggs

41:40This is my, my crux tangents.

41:45But yeah, so we, I think like, like, or like Zach was saying, you know, we kind of locked in the logo for, first and then one of the things that we believe is, you know, we believe in is creating a responsive logo system. So, you know, in this slide, we, we have how the logo kind of the different forms of the logo and how they kind of break down and going across to like the most minimal versions of them.

42:17And, you know, there's a couple of different versions, like the, the logo on the label has the, the monogram to the left of the word mark.

42:27You know, we're kind of looking at the, the main gist of the logos as well right here. But so we, we locked all that in first and then we moved on to the labels and looking at, you know, our packaging exploration. So as Zach had kind of said earlier on, all the products are directly related to something that is important to Zach and Jess. And some of that results in pop culture references and some of that results in a real life references to specific things that they love or have done or have gone through or just things that are near and dear to them.

43:14So initially we were starting out with a couple of different products. We wanted to kind of hit, I think it was three products, three different products so that we could kind of show how the labels would look in three different sizes. And so we focused in on some of these pop culture references. So here we kind of have a couple of the mood boards for a couple of the different products. So we have Amity, Crystal Lake, and then we have American Gardens and Great Ghost.

43:53And so all those are directly related to movies or TV shows. And so we rewatched those movies. We kind of took snapshots of important things. We took notes on pivotal points and things like that. And tried to use that as our foundation for, you know, where we were going to go with the packaging. And so we initially came with two different directions because we were still kind of debating, like, are we going more illustrated and like a really simple, clean look where it's like mostly white?

44:35Or are we going to go into something that is a little more of an evolution of, you know, where Dan had taken things and kind of have part clean label, part, you know, graphic device in a way. And so this was sort of like the first take on it that we had.

45:05And from here, you know, Zach and Jess really responded to this version of it. And we kind of just started to dial it in a little bit more. And so this is an example of American Gardens and how we kind of took the research and brought that into the design and also tried to figure out the design as well. So, you know, as you can kind of see in this bottom right corner, you have where we ended up as well as, you know, where they were previously.

45:39You know, American Gardens, it's based on American Psycho, you know, Patrick Bateman, there's a lot of murder, there's a lot of blood, there's a lot of different things that we could pick up on. But one of the things that we had spoken about was like, how do we take it, make it an Easter egg, but also, you know, tone down a little bit of the like campiness in terms of like the blood and some of the horror elements to try to make it a little bit more accessible and a little bit more broadly appealing.

46:18And so we were trying to look at, like, how do we find that balance? So, you know, in the in the case of American Gardens, we were looking at Patrick Bateman's ties and certain scenes and things like that. And so we were trying to do takes on that. And then maybe there's a blood stain on the tie. And maybe that takes the shape of, you know, it takes place of something that is red in the tie or something like that. And so we kind of messed around with that. But through talking with Zach and Jess, they were feeling like, you know, doing doing the blood references a little over the top, we want to be a little bit more subtle.

47:03So we kind of looked through the movie and one of the things that stuck out to us was Paul Allen's character and, you know, how he kind of is a mirror for Patrick Bateman's character. And his kill in his apartment is kind of like an important piece of the whole Patrick Bateman puzzle. And in the apartment, there are these two paintings that are these like geometric squares that are sort of like getting larger or smaller, depending on the way that you look at it.

47:40And we thought, what if we take that, we use, you know, tweak the colors a little bit, but we use that and make it a pattern. And as we kind of did that, I think we started to kind of unlock this like visual language that started to resonate a lot more. And we ended up kind of applying that to a lot of the different products. And so in doing that, we kind of came up with this system that was essentially that, you know, we're kind of honing in on these like more geometric takes on these almost pattern-like designs that we could use that so that they could feel similar to what Zach was saying.

48:30Like, like art in a way that you might want to hang in a space or that you might see somewhere else, but they have these hidden Easter eggs in terms of references. So you have that like fun, if you know, you know, and, you know, you can tell the story, even somebody telling their friend about the product, you know, just going like, the reason this looks like this is because this is based on, you know, Jaws or, you know, whatever it may be.

49:00So it was a fun little thing that we unlocked, you know, this like geometric take. And I think that took us to the next level with it. Totally. Yeah. I think what this did was you basically created a whole new visual language for the brand just through, I mean, something so simple as, as shapes or silhouettes of, of shapes that you can, it's, it's like boiling every like story and inside joke down to the purest essence of what it is.

49:37And I think it works so well for the labels because you, it can be applied to anything, any shape, any size, like any, like it scales well, it just is kind of like a home run across the board. Thank you.

50:22Like keep things as consistent and holistic as possible. Um, we knew that we wanted to have like these certain ratios that we, um, maintained for, um, consistency. And so, you know, you'll, you'll, you'll see in this like bottom left corner, we even have it like notated for most of the products. It's like a 50, 50 split, but for when it gets to, you know, some of the taller products, it goes to more of like a 70, 30.

50:53And really kind of looking at that and using like a strong framework to guide everything else helped us, you know, really set things up for the rest of the line, because we started off with, I think those three products. And then I think Zach, correct me if I'm wrong, but they're up to like 20 something products right now. So yeah, we're, we're, we're up there currently, uh, we're, we're in the, we're in the process of, uh, revisiting some things and, you know, kind of replacing certain things and working on some new stuff.

51:37But yeah, we're, we're definitely, uh, as of this current moment, uh, we're sitting around a little bit. I think it's over, over 20. Okay. Yeah. Um, and Zach, I'm to your, to your experience overall response to this and, you know, not that you have to apply it into metrics, but I think it's good for people to know, like, how has this affected the business in like a positive way?

Business impact and reception

52:04I mean, we, we almost, we almost immediately, once we did the rebrand, we started seeing more shops take us on people, like people just immediately looked at the brand differently. The, the response was mostly overwhelmingly positive. You know, there's some people who just don't like change or things like that. But, uh, you know, whatever, otherwise, you know, once, once people kind of started learning, you know, people thought we like abandoned what the brand started as where we had all these pop culture references.

52:43Now, what is this? You know, and it's funny, it's, we've probably seen the most pushback with Crystal Lake, our styling pomade. And it's a Friday the 13th reference that is one of my favorite horror movies of all time. If you see on my desk over here, I have a signed copy of the first movie, um, from the man who wrote the movie. Thank you very much to my buddy, Ian, his son, who got that for me.

53:08But Crystal Lake probably got the most blowback because people love the iconography that Dan did. And then I have every single time that I explained the story of where the design work came from and how it's based off of one of the first kills in the movie that's in the archery scene. And it's based off the actual bullseye from the movie. They're like, oh, and it's like, you know, it's so clever. Yeah. Which, by the way, Crystal Lake is my favorite pomade I've ever used.

53:41I mean, right now my hair is too short to put anything in it, um, but, um, I just like, I love, yeah, how simple the brand is. And I was just thinking about, you know, it's of a time, Natter, like, obviously, like, it has a, has a very specific, like, feel and, and style to it. But it is also, to me, almost timeless. Because I'm like, this, you, when you rebrand something, you're thinking like, okay, what's the shelf life of this look going to be before it has to be flipped over again?

54:13And to me, I'm like, it's so unique and it's so clean, but also so personalized that, you know, this is just something that could persist for as long as I think you and, you and Jess wanted to continue on with it. Yeah, we're very, we're very thankful for it. It's funny, you don't realize how timeless something is until you really start getting in, into the weeds with it. Um, and we've watched a lot of our friends' companies, even, um, they've done numerous rebrands and they've, like, done these little additions or changed things a bunch over the years.

54:54And with this, like, I haven't had a single inkling of being like, oh, I don't know, maybe we gotta, maybe we gotta revisit some things. You know, it's like, no, the design work is, is immaculate and it's unbelievable. And there's so many different, it's funny because, like, it is a, there is an aesthetic to it and there is, like, a very particular, obviously thought out formula for these things. But there is nothing that, like, you could look at and be like, oh, well, we, maybe we should change this a little bit or go a little bit more this way.

55:29It's like, it has created such a definitive style within itself. And, you know, I think you've said it best before, bringing up the visual identity and, and, and everything. And, uh, yeah, I'm just super thankful for it. It's funny. I'm like sitting here, I'm staring at like a row of racks of our products and I'm just like, damn, that looks good. Well, it does. It's, it's a nice aesthetic. It looks good on a shelf, especially when there's a lot of them together. It just kind of heightens the, the boldness of the, the patterns and stuff.

56:02Um, but I think, uh, you know, like a follow-up question for you, Zach, is like when you guys are doing collabs, because you guys do a lot of stuff with other brands or, or businesses, like how do you apply these aesthetics now to like, I don't like if you're doing something with the wonder years or if you're doing like, you know, special.

Brand collaborations

56:20I know you guys put some pomades and stuff sometimes into like, uh, like curated boxes and, and stuff like that. So, um, it's funny. We've, we've gone about collaborations differently almost every time that we've done them. But since the Brie brand, one of the things that we have gone through and done, um, so some of the bigger stuff, like we've worked, we've done collabs with the band, the wonder years and Natter. Natter actually went through and did all the artwork for that.

56:54So we were able to really stick with, uh, stick with the branding and we took the wonder years branding for the time that we were working with them and, uh, and use their logos and everything like that to work into kind of our visual visuals. And then we did a collaboration with the local coffee roaster, um, Rook coffee roasters. And it's funny. Anytime we work with someone who isn't Natter, we always send our brand guide to them and be like, Hey, here you go. If you need anything from us, just let me know.

57:26I scream, you scream, todos gritamos, porque el famoso Small Classic Frosty de Wendy's está a solo un dólar por tiempo limitado. Más gritos, happy screaming, summer screaming, gritando porque el Frosty está a un dólar. Pero por favor, don't scream en el drive-thru, le van a doler los oídos a los empleos. Get a $1 Small Classic Frosty por tiempo limitado, solo en Wendy's. El precio y la participación pueden variar en los Estados Unidos. Running a small business means I wear lots of hats.

57:59When I put on my hiring hat, I can count on LinkedIn Hiring Pro to make it easy. LinkedIn Hiring Pro helps manage my hiring workflow, puts my job post in front of a unique network of professionals, and matches me with the best candidates for my business. I can also share my job with my network. No other job site lets me do that. No wonder most small businesses say they'd use LinkedIn Hiring Pro again. Hire right the first time. Post your job for free on LinkedIn today at linkedin.com slash quality.

58:27And every single time I send someone our brand guide, they're like, this is phenomenal. Like, this is the best thing ever. Thank you so much for sending this. But a lot of times, like, when it's stuff like that, where here I actually have the Rook collaboration here, it's very much in a voice that is similar to ours, and they kind of ran with that general direction, which is great. But then, you know, we also work with some other artists and things like that, and if it's somebody whose main thing is art,

59:08then I kind of let them run with it. I'll send them our brand guide, but then I'm just like, hey, this is your thing. It's very specific. We have a candle collaboration coming up with a graphic designer, and she does absolutely amazing work, and I'm in love with it. So I just let her do her thing and run with it. I don't know when this is going up, so I can't really announce anything yet. I don't know when this is going up, so don't say anything. All right. I'm not going to say a word. Yeah.

59:38You know, we had her run with it, and it looks amazing, and I'm super thankful, and it's not in our voice at all. But our brands still, our visuals still align even outside of that for other reasons. So it's cool. Like, you know, things like that, it's been amazing. But having our brand guide and, you know, having Natter in our back pocket is absolutely, absolutely phenomenal. Yeah. I don't blame you.

1:00:10All right.

Where to find the guests

1:00:11Well, this has been lovely. I think we've probably beaten this to death, but in a good way.

1:00:21I really, like, honestly, Natter, like, having the visuals has been so, so helpful. Oh, yeah. But I think if you guys want to, at this point, plug, like, all your socials and stuff, and where people can find you, and then we'll do, like, my little last subsection that I want to do with you guys. And we'll get you out of here. All right. Sounds good. Yeah. Natter, you want to start, since you're the designer and you did all the work.

1:00:52I'll give you a hug.

1:00:58So, yeah. Our website is nbdeco.com. And then our social, we only really kind of use Instagram a little bit. And it's, I believe it's underscore nbdeco, or nbdeco underscore, I don't remember. Yeah, it's whatever. They'll find you. But, yeah. We'll link your stuff in the show notes. Some have those on there.

1:01:23All right. Cool. Zach, you're up. Okay. Actually, before I start shamelessly promoting myself, I do want to say this to any brand owner, anyone who's thinking about working with a design firm going out there. If you care enough about what you're doing and what you're putting in a bottle, putting out into the world, doing anything like that, I absolutely advise you to care enough to work on the aesthetics and the branding and everything for your company because it will pay off so much in the long run.

1:02:06And watching what we've grown to now, I am so thankful for the time that we took to really hone everything in and get everything on lock with our branding and our voice and everything like that. So, for any aspiring business owner out there, please do yourself a favor and do the same. I'd clap. I would clap if I wouldn't fuck up the sound.

1:02:35But please. Now, I will shamelessly promote myself. We have a website. It is sheerrevival.com, S-H-E-A-R, and on all the socials, the, you know, Instagram, YouTube, TikTok, all of the fun stuff, everything pretty much except for whatever Hellscape Twitter is now.

1:02:58We're at sheerrevival. Cool. All right. Excellent. Um, and then if you guys have any questions after you watch this episode, if you watch this episode, um, you can, you can get us at, uh, at DGDCpod pretty much anywhere. And then I am at TLaureau underscore design. And, and yeah, okay, before we actually wrap this up, you guys got to give me like a couple of records that you're listening to right now that you really like, because I was trying to like, be like, okay, what's like, you know, what's everybody vibing on?

1:03:30What's the inspiration for, for the week or the month?

Current music recommendations

1:03:33Like, especially like, you know, Natter, you're sitting at a computer and Zach, you're in a warehouse. So, you know, you got to keep yourself, you got to keep yourself occupied, right? Yeah, dude. Um, Natter, you go first. Cause I'm, I'm going to end up, I have a lot of crap I've been listening to lately for a change. Um, so the first one that I've been listening to on loop recently, cause it just came out is our other client and other friends, Mike Nacosa's project, uh, probability cloud.

1:04:04That album is incredible. And, uh, I've definitely been listening to a ton of it. And then I've also on the completely opposite side have been listening to, uh, a lot of shy Hulud reach beyond the sun. Definitely been listening to that album for this current hellscape that we're living. It's a good one. Feels very relatable. Yeah. I've also been listening to funeral languages, new album. Um, oh, it's so good. Yeah. It's really good.

1:04:35And then again, on the total opposite side of things, Owen, anything going on? There you go. Um, yeah, I will absolutely second probability cloud for anybody. If you are New Jersey based and remember bands like Outsmarting Simon or Penfold, it's that times a million. It's incredible. It's beautiful. I love it. Um, and then I've also been listening to the new Converge record. I love it. Yeah. That's unbelievable. My friend, Josh, who plays guitar in the band moving mountains, uh, who also just released a record, which is very good.

1:05:12Oh, also one of my favorites from last year. Yeah. That's unbelievable. But Josh, the guitar player, just put out an EP under the name Clear Coat. The EP is called Hiding from the Light. It's unbelievable. That was great, too. Yeah. I did take a look at it. So good. Yeah. And also, uh, I feel like this band, I have no idea how this band isn't massive. There's a band called Overslept from Colorado. They are basically if Midwest emo with more like pop sensibility and the singer is like the whitest R&B singer.

1:05:53He's got such a phenomenal voice. Uh, they just dropped a record out of nowhere called Wannabe. Let's definitely listen to that. My friend Rob just put something out under the name Vacant Ears. He has two new singles out. Very good. And then I'm going to tell you I could rattle on this forever. I will not. But, uh, I've been like going back and listening to, uh, a bunch of bands have popped up from the 90s in my playlist recently. Because I'm almost 40 and that's where we're at as they're just like, come on, you're not listening to anything past these years.

1:06:27So there's a band called The Figs, F-I-G-G-S. There's a record called Lo-Fi at Society High, which is amazing. And another record from a band called Pot Valiant. The record's called Trans Audio. And another record from Ducks Limited called Harm's Way. And I'm going to put my phone down because otherwise I will keep talking. Well, that's good stuff. Usually you don't get that much from people. I always ask and they're like, oh, they'll give you, like, a playlist and a book. But I knew I'd get some good stuff out of you guys. And, like, especially we're at a time in the year where music is starting to kind of infiltrate again, like, new stuff.

1:07:03But it's not quite, hasn't quite picked up yet. I feel like we're, like, about to get hit with a bunch of new records. So, you know, people have some good stuff. If you have 20 minutes, you can listen to the new Joyce Manor record, which is also phenomenal. So good. And they just played yesterday at the Brooklyn Paramount, which my friend was at. He said it was fantastic. Oh, yeah. Well, it's great because you can probably see your favorite song in their set because they can play 40 to 50 songs. Right. They don't have a choice. In a headlining set.

1:07:34I can't even imagine what that set list must look like. It's probably, like, this long. Oh, yeah. They have to. It's, like, stapled together. Yeah. All right, guys. Well, listen, I'll let you go. But I so, so, so appreciate this. And we can definitely do a roundtable on something different in the future because I think this is a good conversation. Netter, I'm just going to keep having you back until you get tired of doing this with me. I'm happy to be back anytime. Yeah. All right, guys. We'll catch you later.

1:08:05Sounds great. We'll see you soon. We'll see you soon.

1:08:37Thanks.