Considering Art Podcast – Kimberley Gundle, multi-media

Introduction to Kimberley Gundle

0:00Hello, Bob Chaundy here with another Considering Art podcast in which I talk to an artist about their work and something of their life. My guest today is the multimedia artist Kimberley Gundle. Kimberley hails from South Africa where she took degrees in fine art

0:32before coming to the Slade in London in 1988 to study for her MA. She's lived in London ever since and Kimberley has made daily sketches of people on the London underground and many of these she transforms into ceramic portraits. Back in 2009 she made a charity trip to East Africa where she came across the Maasai tribe and she was captivated by their colourful clothing and jewellery and intrigued by their precarious existence. The work she produced from this and subsequent trips

1:03includes drawings, cameo paintings and ceramics which have been featured in no fewer than three Venice Biennales. Apart from being drawn to people, Kimberley is known for her bold use of colour. Whether with paint, ceramic or textile, Kimberley's vibrant works exude joy and that reflects her extrovert personality. She's had solo exhibitions in the UK and elsewhere in Europe as well as in South Africa and China. Her latest show has just opened at the Long and Ryle Gallery in London

1:36and it's entitled My Head is a Fairground. It's as colourful as any fairground with paintings, prints, prints, ceramics on self-made plinths, rugs and she even made her own outfit to celebrate the opening. I visited Kimberley at her North London home which is like a gallery in itself. Kimberley, welcome to the podcast. Thank you for having me, lovely to meet you. Now we're sitting in your front room, I'm surrounded, your whole house is like a museum to your art. I have, I've made

2:07a museum to myself because I keep making and doing and I have to put it somewhere.

Background and Education

2:14Tell me a bit about your background then, Kimberley. You were born in South Africa in what was, used to be called the Transvaal, wasn't it? Yeah. So, I was born in Johannesburg and grew up in Johannesburg and I was always involved in the arts. I attended the Johannesburg Art Foundation which was started by Bill Ainslie and was a very creative hub of people and, you know, Johannesburg with the apartheid and with everything, we grew up in a

2:49very particular kind of environment and then you gravitated towards people who had similar views to you and then I moved to Cape Town where I went to Michaela School of Art where I studied fine art and psychology. And what are your memories? I mean, do you go back often? I love South Africa. I love my friends in Cape Town. Everybody's moved to Cape Town. I've got strong bonds with people

3:23who I went to university with. But we have, a lot of us have left the country so we have people from Australia to Canada to America. There's South Africans everywhere now. Do you think you got your sense of colour from Africans, particularly in South Africa? I think I got my sense of colour and the need to be surrounded with colour and the joy that colour brings to me. And did you have early ambitions to become an artist?

3:57Well, it is very funny because when I arrived at Michaelis and we all had to say what we wanted, I said jokingly and I clapped my hands and I said, I want to be famous. I want to be known all over the world for my work. And my brain still teased me about that today. Well, you're getting there. Slowly. But I did say to my children that when I die, I'm planning them a world trip and they have to put my ashes in lots of plastic bags in every museum around the world.

4:34And when you did your fine art degrees, who were you influenced by? I would imagine with your sense of colour, probably Les Fauves were probably a big influence. Yeah, I think there were lots of artists from Matisse to Picasso to the Forbes and also to Soutine, Bracky and Otto Dix because I studied psychology. So the human psyche is also very important in my work and how I interact with people who are the foundation of how I express myself.

5:10Right. So you went from psychology to art? No. In South Africa, when you do fine art, it's part of a BA. So you do English and you could do psychology. You could do, I did Italian. I did, I started my master's in psychology as well. I did psychology all through my fine art degree, plus history of art. So that's how you studied art. So what made you decide to come to London to study at the Slade?

5:42Well, we were looking at leaving South Africa. Is that because of the regime then? Because of the regime and because we felt that we didn't want to bring up our children in such a apartheid country. And so we, I got into the Slade, I applied to the Slade in 1988, well, before 1988. And I got started my kind of postgraduate diploma, it's called, at the Slade in 1988. And I was felt very anchorless because in South Africa, because of the politics, everything

6:19you did was a political statement. We're here. I mean, I was just thinking, what do I do? How do I anchor myself in this country? And I felt very isolated and kind of unhinged. And I began drawing, starting to draw on the underground and observe the people and on different lines with different people. And that's what anchored me into society and continues to sustain me.

Sketching on the Underground

6:46And when you were sketching these people on the underground, were you particularly interested in funny looking people, quirky looking people, or just anyone? Well, I think that even today, when I draw on the underground, someone has to kind of resonate with me in order for me to capture them. You know, it's not just, I don't know, there has to be a resonance. But what has changed in the last, whatever amount of time is, everyone's on their phone. So you don't have that same kind of interaction that you used to have. Like there was more eye

7:21contact and more whatever. But just last week, I was drawing this woman who was sitting opposite me. And I could feel a man looking over my shoulder who was next to me. And I did two quick sketches. And then he said, bravo. And I felt like there was some still that communication happening, even though people are much more disconnected than they used to be. Do you sometimes get negative responses? I've had one main negative response by this woman late at night coming into a tube station.

7:54And she came up next in front of me and she had very long eyelashes and her eyelashes literally were touching my forehead. And she said, what gives you the right to sketch me? And I said, would you like the drawing? She said, yes. And I told her, I gave it to her. And that kind of, everybody started laughing. So that diffused the situation. It just completely diffused it. And I was like shaking inside. Well, I was once sketched on the underground when I was in my twenties. And I was, I suppose I was a bit

8:27shy then. I just was so embarrassed. I wouldn't look at the artist, even though I didn't object to him sketching me. But I think, I think that happens. But I think also people, my sketches are so quick that they, sometimes people aren't aware, but actually there was a man, Lord Eric, who I didn't know he was Lord Eric at the time, who I sketched on the underground once. And then I bumped into him twice more and he recognized me from my bright colored clothes. And I've made a sculpture of him and I

9:01wanted to invite him to my exhibition, but sadly I've heard he's died, which was very sad. That's a shame, yes. But I still heard he was a very good musician. He worked with like some great musicians. I think that what I've noticed is that people more next to me engage with me more than the people opposite me. But sometimes I miss my stop, especially if I'm sketching someone and I want to finish it. I don't get off where I'm supposed to get off so I can finish what I'm doing.

9:34You were always drawn to people, I assume, because everywhere I look, there are faces. Yes, people have always been my anchor into society. You know, it's the history etched into, into people's faces. And I'm more drawn to older people than children. You know, I like a bit of history. That's because they're not on their phones. No, they are actually. You'd be surprised. But actually, you know, older people have some

10:05kind of experience written about, you know, within them. You mean that their faces are etched with experience? Exactly. Etched with history. I noticed, just walking through your museum of a house, a couple of pictures of people's shoes. And I believe you actually had an exhibition called The Shoe Fit, didn't you? What brought about that? Well, I was drawing lots of people's faces and people would ask me to do portraits.

10:38And then they wouldn't see themselves in the way that I saw them. And I found that if people could choose the shoes that they want to be portrayed in, and families could choose the shoes that they want to be portrayed in, like a little boy in football boots and the mother in her stilettos, then they could choose how they wanted to be represented. And that kind of worked as a method. And I did a lot of them as long and thin. So it's almost like peeping up through a letterbox, looking at the shoe, like the portraits below the knee.

11:11And I did people all over London like that. Yeah, well, I wish that person who sketched me on the tube asked me first how I'd like to be portrayed.

11:22But even if they had, they wouldn't have been able to do it how you wanted it.

Designing Rugs

11:26No, quite, no. In 2004, you started designing rugs as well. And I can see some, you know, on the floors here. What brought that on? Well, I wanted a large, colourful rug for our living room. And I looked at all these rugs and thinking that I wanted something that I wanted to be able to do myself. And I had friends who lived in Delhi who recommended this man who had a community of rug notters out in Uttar Pradesh.

11:58And I went to go and see him. And I stayed with him and his family. In Delhi? No, in Uttar Pradesh, northern India. Right. Far away. And he actually even took me to that place called where you drink water from the Ganges and see his guru. And I drank water from the Ganges. And I'm thinking, I haven't died yet, but I'm going to die now. And I didn't. There was his guru with all these beads down to the floor next to the sacred cow.

12:31And he took water from the Ganges and gave it to me to drink. And I really thought, OK, I've had it now. But I didn't. It's not easy to say no in that. No, you can't say no. And then I went up to his house and I looked at all the hand dyeing. They were going to hand dye my colours and hand knot them. And I worked with them for a very long time. And in this exhibition, I have three small rugs designed by me, made in that same community. And not two years ago, I delivered a very, very huge rug to France, five metres by four metres.

13:10And the logistics of it were a bit of a nightmare. But these small rugs, I didn't think they'd come in time because of logistics. So I've worked also with women in Somerset, who I knew I could get them. And now I have six small rugs in the exhibition. I read somewhere that you actually can make them yourselves. If you do hand tufting, you can make them yourself. But the rugs that I've got made in India and the Somerset lady are tufted. But normally I prefer to have them hand knotted because it's supporting a craft and a tradition and expertise.

13:48With tufting, it's a different form of making. But these ones are tufted. And what designs do you put on them? I paint paintings of abstract designs and had those put on. And when I work with my clients all over, I'll go into their rooms, look at the space, design paintings. I've never done it on a computer. Design paintings, choose the colours, and then all the colours were hand dyed for me in India.

Influence of Maasai Culture

14:18Well, in 2009, you did a charity hike across the Great Rift Valley in East Africa, and you discovered the Maasai people. They've been a huge influence on you, haven't they? And what were your first impressions? My first impressions was walking across the Great Rift Valley during a terrible, terrible drought. I think it was November 2009, and there was a terrible drought. And the grass was dry. And you'd come across these women in their brightly coloured cloths, in their ornate beadwork.

14:51And I just think, here we are in Western society, when we complain if, whatever, we can't go to the hairdresser, for instance. Not that I like to go to the hairdresser, but just isn't. And here are these women just singing and moving, trying to drag a cow to water. And I just thought, this resilience and beauty needs to be celebrated, acknowledged. And also, the world is changing with global warming, and with westernisation, and lack of food,

15:25and all of these things that this needs to be kind of recorded. And that's what I started doing. So, I started going back from 2009 to 2017, through various charities. I'd go and stay in very, very remote areas where I was often the, I mean, always the only white woman. Often, the only person who spoke any English would just, like, communicate through sign language. And I'd go and walk with these people, and draw, and sketch.

15:57And they all knew that when I sold my work, I would give back to the communities. That they all knew through the charities. And I put a kitchen in a school, a maternity unit in a hospital, water for 5,000 people in a village. So, I always felt that it wasn't exploitation or voyeurism. It was more like recording and giving back. Well, presumably, you must have made friends with some of them. Well, friends, I made, there are two guys who I still communicate with now.

16:30But, you know, there wasn't enough communication for friendship. But there was enough communication for trust. And when I went back, actually, two years ago to Kenya, to a community where I had worked before, and showed them the photographs of the images of themselves. And it was amazing. What was their reaction? They were just thrilled. Really thrilled. What's the main aspects of their culture and traditions?

17:00Well, I think, you know, they're pastoralists. So, they walk from place to place with their cattle. But gradually, with game farms and with westernization, they've been forced to go into enclosures. So, life has changed a lot. So, is their way of life under threat? It is under threat. You've done several visits, as you say, and you've exhibited at various Venice Biennales. Tell me about some of those, the works that you've done regarding the Maasai there.

17:33So, in 2013, I was invited, or 2012, I was invited by Palazzo Bembo's Personal Structures, Time, Space, Existence, to exhibit some of my work. And I made an installation with grasses, with the sound of the cicadas, and with long, very huge drawings on Japanese paper with screen printing of my grandmother's lace, because I thought that was, like, fragile. And I made these drawings on my love, Maasai woman.

18:04And then, in 2015, I made an installation of Maasai in cameos, where I designed this domed acrylic top. So, it was like a cameos to wear close to your heart, to be cherished and protected. And then, in 2017, I did another huge installation where I printed wallpaper of my drawings and photographs at the back. Then, I made these ceramic cameos with gold, luster, and ceramic people,

18:39and made all these ceramic cameos, which I put all over, together with a kind of stool where people could sit and think and ponder life, with sculptures, like a whole immersive installation. Those cameos you mentioned are oval-shaped, aren't they? Yes, oval-shaped cameos. Any particular reason why you chose that? Well, I think the oval-shaped cameo references the historical miniature cameos that people used to wear of royalty, worn close to the skin, to be cherished and remembered.

19:15So, it was really that kind of reference that I wanted. In your artist's statement, Kimberly, you say that you reflect on our fragile existence. So, I'm wondering whether the Maasai were in your mind when you thought of that, given the fact that you were just saying that their existence is a bit fragile. I think the Maasai were definitely in my mind during that time, but I think that our fragile existence continues to this day when I've left the Maasai and turned my lens back to London and life doesn't look more sturdy, I have to say.

19:49But I have to make it joyful. Yeah, yeah, indeed. Anyway, you came back to London, you carried on sketching on the underground. You did a series called How Is the Weather in Your Head, a series of ceramic portraits from the underground. How did you make those?

Ceramic Portraits and COVID Diary

20:08For a start, where did you learn ceramics? So, I started making ceramics a long time ago. And then in about 1994, or later, 1996, I met Mimo Palladino in Italy. And he introduced me to a friend of his who runs a ceramics studio in Italy. And he said he thinks I should go to the studio and make ceramics. And I started making ceramics in the studio in Italy since then.

20:43And when my children were very little, I used to go for five days. And they don't teach you, just learn. And I also worked in ceramics with a studio at Kingsgate Studios with Chris Bramble. And I followed him around and did ceramics with him because I love working in multimedia. I do printmaking and the ceramics. And the How Is the Weather in Your Head came about because I was doing a diary during COVID,

21:12which I continue to this day, where I have a thought a day. And the How Is the Weather in Your Head handbook sculptures inspired by thick people on the underground. On the rear of each sculpture, I have got a thought. And for instance, this one says, Thank goodness for the sun and the moon, the only constants in this fragile world. So they're your thoughts and not what you think the person you're sketching is thinking.

21:42No, they're my thoughts. Right. You did some things called companion cups, ceramic cups. What brought cups on? So during COVID, when we were all isolated behind our closed front doors, and lots of people were living alone, I made these cups. And on each cup, I put two or three figures so that when people drank out of these cups, they were always drinking tea and company. And then I did Open House London and people would come to my garden and they would sit separately,

22:20but each have a cup with people. And I'd serve tea and scones and cakes in the garden. And I had pagodas up and people would have tea and conversations, sometimes from a distance, and the laws changed. So my garden kind of changed the way it could invite these people. And they came through Eventbrite and I advertised it through Open House. Oh, brilliant. And these cups have baked into them your sketches. Yes. Yeah.

22:50And, well, let's talk about COVID then. You, you, as they say, you did this diary, the daily diary, was it? And how did you get, what, did you put them on Instagram? So, yes. So on the first day of COVID, the 20th March, 2020, actually prior to that day, I had bought from the New York Library. I can't remember the name of the library. Anyway, it's unfortunately burnt down. I bought two sketchbooks and the proceeds of those sketchbooks could go to this

23:21library. And I was thinking, what am I going to do in the sketchbook? It's not the size sketchbook that I use for my tube drawings. And you'd have, you had to send it back to the library. So when COVID started, I started doing, I thought today, in this sketchbook from the New York, this New York library. Just, like, recording the progress of COVID and my thoughts and how that evolved.

23:55And it kind of was reaching out behind our closed front doors and created this online community where people would talk back to me. And then some people would, you know, send me thoughts that they had. What sort of things did they say? You know, they said that I'm giving them strength or I'm keeping them company. What's the first thing they wake up to in the morning to look what I've done? Because I always do them quite late at night when I've kind of gathered my thoughts.

24:27And I sustain this to this day.

24:3120th of March, 2022, the 20th of March, 2026. It's six years and X days I've been doing this. And you made a book, didn't you? And I made a book called Navigating the Maze. And each book, it's a limited edition of 300. And each book, I made a talisman for each book. So each book has a companion. Because in COVID, everyone was isolated. And I just felt that every book needed its own companion. They can't go off into the world by themselves.

25:02So the same idea as the companion cup. The same idea as the companion cup. Let's talk about some of your individual works now. Reclaiming Joy, you did in 2023. And I saw it as I was walking into your house. It's a figure, very colourful figures as always, emerging from an open flower. With arms reaching up to the sky. With a star in one hand and a full cocktail glass in the other. And the sun on her head. That really sums it up, doesn't it? The joy of getting out of COVID.

25:34So when my daughter was sent back from Cambridge during COVID. She said, Mom, I just want to be like Bimini Bambula. And do the splits. And so there she is. I made her first out of paper mache and cardboard. And then got this carousel stick from an old carousel maker from the fairgrounds. And then I covered it in fiberglass and painted it and had it sprayed. So it can be an outdoor sculpture of freedom and joy and cocktails.

26:09And keep reaching for the stars with the sun shining. Yeah, it's certainly a joyous sculpture, yeah. I know. And in 2023, you did a residency with communities in Hammersmith and Fulham and Kensington and Chelsea. You did lots of sketches in cafes, shops and pubs. There must be a few stories from that time. Yes, I just loved working with the community. And then we ran weekly, I think weekly or bi-weekly classes when people would come together and we would make things together in the community, you know, in the community art studio.

26:51And it was just wonderful to have people coming and talking and creating work and wanting to be there and creating communities in an area where there was a lot of redevelopment. And this brought people together. And then I'd go into the shops and they would see the drawings and they all came at the end to come and see the cups that I made from all the drawings. And I invited them all to drink out of the cups from their drawings.

27:22And the same idea was for your conversation chair. Exactly. So my conversation chair developed out of thoughts of having conversations together and how we all have conversations with our many selves. You know, we all have many selves residing with that in us. And so you can sit and think about yourself and have a chance to reflect on life. Talking about your many selves, let's talk about your current exhibition, My Head is a Fairground.

27:57At the centre of it is a seated self-portrait in conversation with my many selves. This presumably is the fact that our identities are made up of so many different things. Yes, our identities are made up of so many different things from feeling positive and feeling fulfilled or feeling that we need to just hang on or stretch our neck longer to keep our head above water. Because my next chair that I have also going to be in this exhibition, where the title of the exhibition came from, called My Head is a Fairground, which is My Head is a Fairground because it has so many ideas bursting forth, but life is a roller coaster.

28:43So we all have our ups and downs in the world of life. Well, for those who are going to see your exhibition, all the fun of the fair seems to be in it, doesn't it? Tell me what you've got in there. So in my exhibition, I have 12 portraits, ceramic portraits, all inspired by my drawings on the London Underground. And on the reverse of each portrait is my thoughts. For instance, one says something about we need to be a bit ridiculous.

29:17You know, we need to have fun in our lives. And then I've designed these plinths for each portrait. And they're two chairs for people within the exhibition if they want to take a seat and just reflect on life. They're going to be six rugs. They're going to be drawings. And I've also designed wallpaper, which is going to be at the back. One whole wall of wallpaper, which is taking images from my different drawings. And I've printed wallpaper.

29:47And you've designed and make your own clothes as well. Yes, and I've also designed an outfit to wear for the exhibition, which has come from the different drawings that are mixed media drawings that are going to be in the wall. So it's a whole immersive, colour-filled, colourful experience for the viewer.

My Head is a Fairground Exhibition

30:03Let's go for another thought in the back of your head. There's one that says, some days I just need to fly above what is going on down below. What was going on then below? I think that the thing is that the world is a harsh place. And there is a lot of chaos. And sometimes we just need to escape that chaos. And I think that my studio is the place where I escape the chaos of the world. Another one. Listening is presence.

30:35We need to listen more. Who do we need to listen more to? Well, I think we just need to listen more to each other and, you know, be present. Because lots of times you want to speak to people and they aren't really present. They're thinking their own thoughts or distracted. And I think the phone distracts people a lot. And I think actually we need to be present in conversation. Let's just have a look at your process, Kimberly. When you're making, say, a ceramic head, just take us through the process.

31:07Okay. So I flick through my sketchbook from the tube. And I think, okay, I'm going to do this one. And I have a big block of clay. And I start carving into the clay. Literally carving into the clay. Until I've carved all the way to the head. And then I cut it in half, this block. And you have to, because you can't just fire your block of clay. So you cut it in half and you have to hollow it all out. Then you put it all back together again. And then you wait for it to dry.

31:40So that you can then put in the detail. And then when it's completely dry and the detail's in, then you biscuit fire it. And then I do many, many layers of glazes, which is why I have my own kiln. Because I like to use glaze as a painter. So I use underglaze, and then I use another glaze, and I use different lusters, and I use mother of pearl. And then I could use a gold luster or platinum.

32:14And I just play with glazes. I'm not very, I'm not technical technical. But I do work to kind of develop something that I feel is complete. And as for the form, the actual face, the expressions, are you referring to photograph sketches or it's all from your memory? No, no, no. They're all from my sketches. So I'll have my sketchbook right there. And I do, it's from, I mean, obviously there's a bit of artistic license in the way that I may develop a nose longer or the glasses bigger.

32:49But it's all from sketches. And I'm looking at one of your Maasai sculptures, and you've recreated the decorative jewelry that they wear. What are they made from? The decorative jewelry on the Maasai, I've used some wire, and it's all ceramic. It's all ceramic beadwork and wire. But on the pieces that are going to be exhibited in this exhibition, it's all ceramic. And there's maiolica as well, ceramic maiolica, which is a way of glazing, Italian, really, way of glazing.

33:26A lot of your sculptures, the people wear glasses. Well, I think that it's kind of, eyes are quite difficult to do. And they also, glasses can give a reflective quality, so that the viewer can be looking at it, and there's reflection and play of light, where eyes could be just quite staring at you, and you don't feel like you engage in the same kind of way. So that was a thought. There's one painting that you've done for this exhibition.

33:58It says, where do we go from here? That's the words in text being looked at by a face with oversized eyes. So where do you go from here? Well, where do I go from here? I just keep working. I've decided after my exhibition, I'm going to feel really, really lost. So I'm posting myself off to Italy, back to work. Really, to do what? Back to more sculptures. Well, Kimberley, what a colourful life you lead.

34:30Thanks so much for coming and talking about it. Well, thank you so much for offering to interview me. I really appreciate it. It's been a great pleasure meeting you. Thank you. Kimberley Gundl, who's as colourful as her art. Details of her current exhibition are on the Considering Art website. Thanks for listening. Join me for another artist interview next week. Bye for now.