Considering Art Podcast – Drew Forsyth, photographing those “wow” moments.

Introduction to Drew Forsyth

0:00Hello, Bob Chawndy here, with another Considering Art podcast, in which I talk to an artist about their work and something of their life.

0:24My guest today is the award-winning portrait photographer and director, Drew Forsyth. Drew's work focuses on high achievers, whether that's business people, scientists, occasional politician, or performers such as ballet dancers, actors or comedians. Drew works mainly on commission, both in the studio and on location, and these locations can be all over the world. Recently, he's taken on more personal work, which he says allows him to express himself more artistically and pushes himself outside of his comfort zone.

0:58Drew is a much sought-after public speaker and is accredited with the Association of Photographers, as well as being a Fellow of the Royal Society of Arts. His work has appeared on many a high-profile publication, as well as on TV. He spoke to me from his home in Manchester. Drew, welcome to the podcast. Nice to meet you. Tell us a bit about yourself.

Getting into Photography

1:19How did you get into photography? I think the way that I got into photography is the way that a lot of people get into photography, which was that it was a hobby for years. And it was pootling away in the background. I actually didn't study photography at university. I went to do English and drama. And I had a camera. And I was the only person who had a real camera, you know, I mean a proper camera. And all my friends were in shows and they all needed headshots and they all needed the shows

1:49to be photographed. And so I started doing that and then photographing my friends. And then one day someone said, oh, these photos are really good. How much do you charge? And I said, oh, I have no idea. Your eyes lit up and thought, yeah, I have a career in this. I thought, hello, wait a minute. I'm getting away with it. So, yeah. And then it was, again, but it was still a hobby for years and years as I was studying and I was, you know, working in odd jobs here and there.

2:22And then eventually I had a friend who was a makeup artist. And she worked in one of those photography studios. I don't know if it's still a thing that exists, but, you know, you would go there with your family on a white background and have your photos taken. It's that kind of thing. But it wasn't just families. We did engagement shoots and couples and anything that you can imagine. So, yeah, I threw her. I got a job there. And that kind of became my technical training, I guess you would say.

2:53Because up until that point, I really didn't have any idea what I was doing. You know, I didn't really know what shutter speed was or aperture or flash. You know what I mean? That was a complete anathema to me. So that served as my training. And then after two and a half years of that, I'd had enough. And I thought, I can do better than this. And then I just was freelancing from there. Right. And did you study photography at all?

Photographic Heroes

3:18I mean, do you have any photographic heroes? Yes. Well, I actually, I love the history of it. I came across Life magazine and I thought, wow, now this is proper. Do you know what I mean? This is the real stuff. So there was another great BBC series called, I think it was Masters of Photography. And I think it's 1983. You can get it on YouTube. And, you know, there's interviews there with Andre Kirsch. And there are these amazing interviews with all these incredible photographers.

3:50And that really kind of ignited my passion for the history of it. And then, you know, since then, there is not a documentary about photography that I won't sit down and watch. So, yeah, I love it. I love all that stuff. And I think there's just something so romantic about it, especially all those stuff in the 60s, David Bailey and all this stuff. I just, oh, I love it. And then I've been very fortunate. I've actually managed to meet a couple of my heroes as well.

Working with High Achievers

4:14Anyway, you work now with many talented people, people at the top of their professions. Dancers, scientists, sports people, businessmen and women. Do you find, Drew, that they have common attributes?

4:33Yes. I think the thing that they all have, which is something that really draws me to them, is that they really are singularly focused on the thing that they do. I've been very fortunate to spend a lot of time with principal ballerinas. And that world is so fascinating because statistically, it is impossible for you to even get into that room. So, if everyone in there is a fantastic technical dancer, how do you differentiate yourself and how do you stand out?

5:08Amongst the best of the best of the best, how do you become the absolute pinnacle? And it's because they are so focused. And that's what I really like to talk to them about. And it can be funny because sometimes, you know, especially with athletes and footballers and things like that, you can try to talk to them about things that aren't football. And they have nothing. You know, they can't talk to you about anything else because there is no world outside of what they do.

5:38They are singularly focused on that one thing that has made them so good. And often they've missed out on so many other of these life experiences. You know, one of my friends is a ballerina and she told me that she'd been on six nights out ever. And I think, my goodness, like when I was at uni, that was a week, let alone my whole life. So, yeah, there is something about them. And I think that their dedication to it and what they're willing to sacrifice is just something that I really, that spans across absolutely everyone from physicists, astronauts, to even kind of world leaders.

6:20And, yeah, they all have that. You know what I mean?

Ballet Photography

6:23They all have that single mindedness. Well, let's talk about ballet since you brought it up. What's your main attraction to ballet as a photographer? As a photographer, it really is the strength and the grit and the determination of it. I think principally, though, it has to be the strength and the power of it. Like, I think sometimes when I talk to my friends in particular, they have this perception of ballet that it's, you know, Sugar Plum Fairy and pink leotards and fluffy dresses and whatever.

6:55And it's very soft. And actually, you know, you spend any length of time with these dancers and these performers and you realize it's hard. It's hard. It's hard. It's hard. It's hard. It's hard. And as a photographer, I'm just so drawn to, I guess, their passion for it and, like, the form, the physical form of it and the musculature and just, I don't know. They are athletes. Do you know what I mean?

7:25And it just, I think there's some part of me that just thinks they're not getting enough attention. You know, like, they're not, you know, they go to the theatre and, you know, it's on at the theatre on a Friday, Saturday, Sunday, you know, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and that's that. Whereas there are other people who work just as hard and they are on the telly all the time. So I don't know. So I'm kind of drawn to that a little bit. Yeah. When you see a footballer rising at a corner to head the ball in, you know that any good ballet dancer could do that.

7:57Yes. And they could do that with their foot above their head. Yeah. I think that's the, yeah. We'll talk about that later. But you did a series called Power, a series of silhouettes, very tightly framed by a window of the Glasgow ballerina Bethany Kingsley-Garner. I think what I see in that, apart from the power and the strength that you mentioned, is the sheer elasticity that they can create in their bodies. Yes, it is unbelievable.

8:27You know, you really can say to them, oh, can you put your hand here and your foot here and what does this look like? And they can say, and they'll just say yes. And then they'll do it 10 more times for you because they can, they can just, just do it. I mean, that, that shoot was so strange because I was actually up there shooting something else. And, um, I went to the bathroom and that window was in the men's bathroom. So I thought, oh my God, this is too good of an opportunity to miss. Like the light was just absolutely perfect.

8:59And so I said to Bethany, can we come back tomorrow morning? I know you've not got anything on. Can you come back tomorrow morning and let's just do like two or three hours in that window? And all night, I couldn't sleep because I was just thinking about it. And, um, then when we got in there, I just said to her, look, this is the silhouette. But not only is it the kind of hard silhouette, the light kind of wraps around her a little bit and just leaks in around her muscles. And, uh, it was so fun, not, you know, not just doing those classic ballet poses, but also kind of exploring and seeing what worked and what, what didn't.

9:36And ballet, ballet photography is always such a conversation between the performer and the photographer, because there will be things that she can do that look unbelievable when she's moving through them. And then you snap a photo and it's doesn't work, doesn't translate. And that, I think with my, you know, with Bethany, I mean, I've been collaborating with her for years. That's something that we really enjoy exploring together. It's figuring out how do you communicate something that moves into something that's still.

10:09But when you capture them in full flight in midair, I mean, that's a photographer's dream, isn't it? Mm, it is, it really, it really is. And when you nail it, oh my God, I wish I could bottle that feeling. Oh, it's great. Mind you, one of the ballerinas in the series called Principal seems to have collapsed. What happened there? So, yeah, with Principal, so that's kind of an ongoing project I've been doing for like 10 years.

10:43And it is Principal dancers in dance companies all around the world. And it is very, now that I'm doing it for so long, it's very tempting for me to bring all of my stuff to it. But really, it is about what they're like and what they're like on the day. And I just try to, really, I feel like my job is to translate how they feel onto the frame. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, well, she just absolutely knackered, was she? Just knackered. Yeah.

11:13Just knackered. And that's the reality.

Environmental Shoots

11:16I'm interested too, you take some of the ballet dancers outside of their theatre backgrounds and you put them in rural and urban settings. For example, you took Bethany to Arthur's Seat in Edinburgh, a hill I've climbed a couple of times. And I just wondered, when you're out doing an environmental shoot, in a weather like ours, which is very changeable, and the light's always coming and going, how do you cope with that?

11:46How do you approach it? Well, the first thing I would say is no reconnaissance time is wasted time. So with that Arthur's Seat, I too have done that walk. I did that walk on New Year's Day last year. And... Hungover?

12:04Listen, okay. Hogmanay was a wild, was pretty wild that year. Yeah, pretty hungover. But I find the wind kind of rushing through you really kind of invigorates you, especially on New Year's Day. And you know that everyone else up there is going through the same thing, which is very reassuring. But with that shoot, that specific place had a real resonance with Bethany because she'd come... She's originally from Devon, but she'd come up to Scotland after leaving the Royal Ballet School. She'd gone up to Scotland and Edinburgh was the first place she'd gone to.

12:37So I knew I wanted something that was really evocative of Scotland and that mix between the city and the kind of natural environment. But you talk about how do you prep for that? I mean, we shot that on the 2nd of January. It was freezing cold. We shot all morning from maybe 10 a.m. through to 1 o'clock, 2 o'clock. And we sat down afterwards in a cafe. I looked at all the images and they were rubbish. And they were rubbish because of the light.

13:07The light was just terrible. And I prepped all this stuff and I knew what I was doing and I knew what poses I wanted, but it just wasn't working. And so what I rely on in those situations where I can't quite... I mean, I know it was the light now, but at the time I couldn't really articulate to myself or to her what the problem was. So I just go through the list. Is it the location? Is it the makeup? Is it the idea? Do you know what I mean? And I had everything laid out and I knew that there were all these things that were working, but it was the light.

13:43And so I said to her, like, look, I think we should just go back out there. We try one more time. And if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. And as we got out there, the sun started to set. And you made that poor woman climb all the way up. I know. God, in her ballet pumps as well, I made her climb all the way back up the mountain. But it was worth it. Yeah. Do you ever take any sort of portable lighting equipment if the light doesn't quite suit?

14:14Yes. So off-camera flash is like something that I discovered pretty early on in my photography career. And I just think I love it. I love taking lighting out on location. Now, with my lighting, I try not to make it look very produced. I try, but I do try to light for the face and make sure that everyone looks beautiful. That's what I'm interested in, right, is everyone looking beautiful. So I do take light out on location. With the wind and the rain, sometimes I do think, why did I choose this?

14:47Why is this the thing that I love so much when it's such a pain? But I do think that everyone deserves this beautiful light. And I've developed like a system now where I can get it up and working or whatever. And it's not too much of a fat, frankly. But yes, I do love taking light out on location. And I think, because it adds so much, I think it really lifts a lot of my work, like having that light there. I think it also has a nice effect on the subject because they go, right, this is real.

15:17This is a photo shoot. We're doing a proper thing here. Also as well, the flash serves as a nice, this is going to sound so silly, but the flash serves as a nice kind of signal to the person I'm photographing that I have taken a photo. I think sometimes when you have no flash, or especially when you're on silent mode with the kind of newer mirrorless camera, your subject doesn't know when you've taken one. So they don't know when they can relax. So they're in a permanent heightened state.

15:48And I think having the flash there, I mean, say it quietly, but I've actually done shoots. Where the flash is going off and it's doing nothing. Like there is no point in it. It's not lighting anything. It's not whatever. But it is purely to signal to the subject that I have taken a photo. Okay, well, we won't tell them. No, don't tell them.

16:12One more ballet question. You did a shot with Emily Suzuki, a first serverless with the English National Ballet. And you described your portrait as her being in a pose only a ballet dancer could achieve. And as you sort of mentioned before, she's standing on her toes on one leg and the other one is well above her head. And you've described it as a wow moment, quite rightly. Do you get many of those wow moments? Okay, so my whole photography life really is built around trying to find those wow moments.

16:50And when you get one, it is, God, I'm getting goosebumps right now. It is incredible. And with dance in particular, there are so many opportunities for it. So, yeah, I really do try to find those wow moments because that's what I like. And there are lots of different types of wows, I would say. There is, wow, how did she do that? Wow, Drew, how did you get in that room? Wow, what's that location? Wow, what time of day is that?

17:21Like, there are lots of different ones. But with ballet, I think in particular, seeing them do stuff with their bodies, it is incredible. And being able to freeze it, I think really allows you to look at it properly. When you see it on stage, you go, oh, wow, that's pretty impressive. When you see it frozen in front of you, you can really look and you go, good grief, look at this and look at this and look at her thigh and look at her arm and her shoulder. And so, yeah, I love it. And as well, I should say, I only take one.

17:53Like, I'm not, we're not holding the shutter button down for this. I only ever take one and I learned that from the amazing photographer, Lois Greenfield, who I think is the kind of, you know, one of the greatest photographers of the 20th and 21st centuries. Her book, Airborne, is absolutely incredible. I would highly recommend it. I did a workshop with her in 20, oh, goodness, must be 2014 now. And, you know, when she was shooting in the 80s and 90s, she just was shooting on a Hasselblad

18:26medium format. So you have no choice. There is no burst mode. So shooting and learning from her, she was like, okay, we're just going to take one. You're going to pick the moment that you want. You pick your wow moment. And then you don't look through the viewfinder. You look at her and you go five, six, seven, eight, click. And it's, it's like a magic trick. Like when I do it in front of, when I'm working with a dancer and they do something like that and I get it in one, the greatest noise is the gasps from behind me, from the gallery.

18:59Do you know what I mean? And it is, I love it. Also, I don't want to be going through all those pictures. I don't want to be going through 5,000 images, right? I'll go through 20.

Collaborating with Other Creatives

19:08I can imagine. Let's take another one of your series called Breaking Ground, where you, you do a series where you've photographed females from different walks of life. You do a rancher in Texas, a cowboy bootmaker also in Texas, a stonemason and a mechanic in the north of England. What drew you to these people? What was behind the idea?

19:34So a few years ago, I had the opportunity to go to Texas to speak at a conference. And I was really struck by what a masculine place rural Texas is. Like it really is the kind of archetypal masculine environment. And I was doing some research and I thought, I don't just want to go for the weekend. I'll go out for a couple of weeks. And I was looking at all these things because I thought, oh, I'd love to photograph a cowboy.

20:05Do you know what I mean? Because these guys are real. They exist. And I thought, oh, and cowboy bootmaking. That's pretty cool. I'd love to go and do that. And then as I did more and more research, I came across these people and I just was so, in my work in general, I'm really drawn to like, I guess, strong female lead. That's something that characterizes a lot of my work. And I was reading an interview with this lady. She's the only female rancher in Texas, you know, a hundred acre ranch, 35 horses out there on her own.

20:37And I just, I thought she was so interesting. And so I went to photograph her and I spent the whole day with her. And she's such a character. I think sometimes people say that in a negative way, but I mean it in the best way possible. She was such a character. And I didn't get shot, even though it was close a couple of times. I actually drove down the wrong driveway to get to her ranch. And I did a three-point turn and I came back. And then she said to me, did you just turn around in my neighbor's driveway?

21:08And I said, yeah, why? What's the, and she was like, you're lucky he wasn't in because he would have definitely shot you. Really? I was like, oh my goodness. Yeah. Like proper, we don't take kindly to strangers around here kind of vibe. So yeah. So I shot her. And then a few days later, I went to the cowboy boot kind of place. And then I was chatting to this lady and she said, where are you from? And I said, oh, I live in Manchester. And she was the most kind of American, like proper American woman.

21:38I said, I live in Manchester. And she said, no kidding. My brother-in-law comes from Cheshire. And I was like, what do you mean? So I photographed her. And then suddenly before I knew it, I had this project ready to go. So I came back and I said to a few of my friends, look, I'm really interested in women who work in very male-dominated environments. Because, again, it comes back to that strength thing and that determination and sacrifice. And, again, one of my friends said, I've got a friend who's a stonemason. She's working on Durham Cathedral.

22:09You know, one of the only women and the hundreds of people restoring it. And I thought, okay, that's interesting. So, you know, it just grew from there, really. I guess it takes a special sort of character to be a woman in a man's world, doesn't it? I suppose you have to kind of stick up for yourself. Yeah, absolutely. And the series you did with Joan Marie, the rancher, clearly it shows great love for her horse, doesn't it? Yes, that's right.

22:40That was – so she had 30 horses, but that particular horse was one that she really had, like, an affinity with. And she didn't believe in saddles. So she rides every horse bareback, which I just was like – I couldn't – I mean, I couldn't believe it, the way that she can handle this huge beast. I mean, you know, I posted a few little videos of me actually shooting it, and the horse is towering over me.

23:11You know, but the way that she – the language that she has with that horse is – it was just, yeah, incredible. And that connection was just, yeah, something really special. You've done some shots of the horse and her wading through water. Yes. Did you get wet doing that? You know what, I was up to my chest in the creek. Yeah. So, I mean, there are a lot of lengths that I'm willing to go to. You're suffering for your art.

23:43Yeah. You do a lot of work with, obviously, as a nature of the job, with other people, you know, art directors, sound people, if you're doing a film, you name it. Is it very difficult when you think of a concept and you're surrounded with lots of other creatives, is it very difficult to keep that concept as you first conceived it? That is such an interesting question because it's something that I only have recently bumped up against.

24:18And I think when I first started working in those larger teams, I really did struggle because I think I didn't fully establish what the dynamic was. I think when you walk into a room and you understand your place in that room, then it becomes a lot easier. So now when I work with these larger teams, especially when it's my own creative work, I'm really clear with absolutely everyone. And I say, look, here's the mood board. Here's the first look. Here's the second look, third look. This is what time we're having lunch.

24:48Crucial. I think everyone was reassured to know that what time lunch is. And I meet everyone before the shoot as well. And I explain to them and I'm always trying to sell them on what the shoot is because the reason I go through all of this stuff is because when we're on set, it is much more of a democracy than you would maybe think. Like, I understand that I'm the expert in photography, but I am not an expert stylist and I'm not by any means an expert makeup artist.

25:19So I'm really relying on those people who are the experts in their fields to feel safe enough and to feel encouraged enough that if they see something, I always say this, if you see something, say something. Do you know what I mean? Because there could be an amazing shot right there and what, my ego means that I don't take it. Do you know what I mean? So when I, and I say the same thing to my assistants to, even to, I have, I mean, I have students on for work experience all the time and I say that to them, I'm like, pipe up, right?

25:53I would much rather you say something now than in the pub later. And then if it's no good, okay, whatever. But if it is good, oh my God. And then I can bring all of my expertise to that idea and then suddenly you've got this creative collaboration that is just unparalleled. You know, it's more than the sum of its parts, right? So, yeah. And I, but I think all that, all that comes from doing the prep and making sure everyone's bought into it and understanding as well that no one is going to be as invested in it as I am.

26:25Mm-hmm. But. And prep's also important because when you're dealing with high profile people, particularly celebrities, they often don't have a lot of time, do they? I know this from, from my own journalistic job. So you really have to be quite efficient, don't you? Definitely. I mean, the way that I like to shoot is I get there really early, sometimes, you know, sometimes two, three hours beforehand, make sure everything's set, completely ready to go.

26:57So that the, let's say it is a celebrity, so the celebrity can walk on set, they stand there, click. And if I don't get any more than that, one frame, then we got it. Do you know what I mean? So like, I, I like to have it so smooth, smooth, smooth, smooth, smooth. Also a nice trick that I, that I pull on them is I say to them, let's say, I say to them, it's going to be 15 minutes and they go, okay. And in the lead up to the, in the lead up to it, I speak to their people and their team and, or their, you know, executive assistant or, you know, whoever it is.

27:33And I say, it's going to be 15 minutes, 15, 15, 15, 15, and then I get it done in nine. And then I say to them, we're all done. And suddenly what a gift I've given them. I've given them six minutes back in their day. And if they are super duper famous or very high profile or, you know, the business, you know, CEOs or chairman of the board of whatever, that time is so precious. And they leave feeling happy, which is really, really, really important to me.

28:03Let's take another one of your series called Half Hour Call.

Half Hour Call Series

28:07This caught my imagination. You, you capture the preparations and so on in the half hour before a performance begins. So what types of performers did you choose for that series? So I tried to choose people who like just across the, across the performance kind of gamut. And I'm still, I'm still do it all the time. I love, oh my God, I love it so much. When you look at my work, I think one of the, one of the things that I'm really drawn to is backstage.

28:42Now backstage can mean a lot of things, right? You know, whether I'm kind of in the offices with some people or I'm doing this thing at Jodrell Bank with cancer specialists or whatever, or big data or whatever. But I love being backstage. And so with, because my theater and performance background, I was just really drawn to, first of all, comedians. Like comedy, I love live comedy. So being, being backstage with those comedians is like the greatest thing. Obviously the ballet. I, I love doing that. And then actors and I've done a few people who are giving lectures and stuff like that.

29:17And I think part of it is like when I'm picking people, it really is that curiosity. Cause I go, oh, I wonder what that person's like, or I wonder what the preparations are like. But how do you, how do you capture, for example, somebody who's quite nervous? I, so I match them. So if they are ebullient and excited and very relaxed or whatever, I too will mirror that back to them. So I'm not interrupting their flow. I'm not, I'm just like that, which is something I'm very conscious of.

29:48You know, they haven't, they've got a job to do and I'm not going to get in the way of that. But if they are super nervous and often that manifests itself with them being very quiet. And so I'll be very quiet. What, you start biting your fingernails? I'll stop biting my fingernails. I'll start tearing my hair out. I'll start freaking out. But I try and like, I try and be, regardless of their energy, I do try to be a calming presence and not get in the way and not do anything. And as well, understand that in that half hour, there will be a change. They will go from being normal to really often getting inside their own head and prepping and prepping and prepping and prepping.

30:29Doesn't it make them more nervous having a camera capturing what they're doing? It really depends on the person. Sometimes, yes. But I think part of that is me explaining to them, like, I'm here to make, to capture this moment. So, like, I'm not trying to make you look stupid. I'm not trying to embarrass you in any way. Like, I'm here to almost to, like, capture this moment in history. Like, this is like a, like a, this is like Jurassic Park.

31:02This is a mosquito trapped in the amber, right? Like, this is something that you, I'm doing this for you for 15, 20, 30, 50 years time. So, you can look back at the, at these moments that no one else is around for. Often, it is just me and the performer. So, I'm doing this for the legacy. And I try to explain that to them. And, you know, they're only going to look stupid if they do something stupid. Drew, you sometimes use film, don't you? You did a series called Shot on Film.

31:32Let's get a bit technical now because you use a camera called the Hasselblad X-Pan 2. Yes. Why film and why that camera?

31:42So, why film?

31:45Let me answer that one first. I'm a self-taught photographer, right? Coming up in the digital age. My first camera was a Nikon D60. So, what is that? 2006? Something like that. I've got that camera. Funnily enough. It's a great camera. I loved it. I still have it. And, um, there was always kind of a bit of an insecurity on my part, not ever having shot film. And so, in the last kind of four or five years, I thought, right, this is embarrassing now.

32:17And, like, why don't I know how to do this? So, I made it my business to learn how to do it and to see what it was like. And it has opened up such a world that I have no knowledge of or concepts of. It's completely changed the way that I shoot. And it's been such a gift. I think that's been the nicest thing about it. It's like discovering this. Like, I've been doing this 15 years now, right? Like, like, photography, you kind of think, oh, I know it all.

32:48And then discovering that there was this whole new side of photography. I have no idea. How do you shoot differently, then? It's slower. It's, I know everyone says there's such a cliche, right? But you really are being much more considered when you're shooting. You've only got 36 frames. I mean, with the Hasselblad, you only have 20. So, you really, out of a rottenness. You really got to get it right. You got to get it right, right? And it just, I have absolutely fallen in love with it.

33:18And as well, like, you know, going back to what we were saying about Life magazine and all those photographers, of course, they all shot on film. So, I think, okay, I'm, and there's a part of me that's like, I'm walking in their footsteps. I'm trying this stuff out. So, yeah. So, that's why I love shooting film. And as well, there's a little bit of nostalgia from when, you know, my mom and dad were on holiday and they had a, my dad had an Olympus OM something or other in the 90s, 40 maybe. And it makes a decent noise.

33:51It's good noise when you take, take the photo. It feels deliberate, right? So, so yeah. And then with, with the, with the X-Pan too, it was something I was just so intrigued by. Like that, that kind of like cinema, proper cinematic panorama thing. I just thought this is, it's just so cool. And it really was no more complicated than that. And then I had, I, I got the opportunity to get my hands on one. And the first role I put through it, I was like, yeah, this is it. This is it.

34:23This is worth having an argument with every single airport security person. And that particular camera gives panoramas, doesn't it? I always tend to think of panoramas in terms of landscape, but, but yours is very, very urban. You've done one, for example, with a model. And I think, is that Brooklyn Bridge behind? Yes, that's the Brooklyn Bridge behind. Yeah. We shot, we shot. So that's Jessica. She's one of the lead dancers with Alvin Ailey dance company in New York.

34:53Probably one of the best, one of the most storied dance companies in the world, really. But when I was out there, we'd done a few portraits or whatever. And I said, Hey, listen, would you mind if I, if I put a roll of black and white film through the X-Pan? And she was like, Oh, it's film. That's cool. And, you know, that is such a, again, it's such a, a kind of little trick because then they, then your subject really, they change because, you know, you can't show them right away. But yeah, that was, um, that was amazing. Yeah. Just on a rooftop in Brooklyn.

35:24And as the sun goes down, you know, I would really recommend that, by the way, getting one of the best dancers in the world on a rooftop in New York. It's a highly recommend. Okay. Well, I'll do my best. Yes. Next time you're there. Yeah. Okay. Um, there's one picture you took of what seemed to be bowls floating in water. It reminded me of kind of fine art, abstract work. Yes. So that actually is one of the other reasons that I love my film camera so much.

35:54I love that X-Pan is I get to take it on holiday with me. So like, you know, I live and die by my phone. It is always in my hand. Do you know what I mean? I think right now during this recording is the longest I haven't held my phone in my hand outside of sleeping. And I just, I realized that it has such a toxic effect on me, just being glued to this thing. And so when I go on holiday, I was coming back from holidays and, or trips or wherever recce's even, and realizing I'm not having a good time, but I'm not

36:26resting. And so having the X-Pan is the greatest thing because suddenly I get to, uh, put some rolls through it and I can really focus on that. And it is so therapeutic, like taking the time, being considered and thinking, okay, I've only got 20. So what am I going to shoot? And as well, not, not only what am I going to shoot, but how am I going to make this look good with the panorama, which is such a strange format to be shooting in, especially straight

36:58out the back. And so, yes, when I was in Paris last year, I really, I was seeking out that more abstract stuff to shoot with that. You mentioned going on holiday. I know that you've done some wildlife shots when you were in Brazil. Was this a personal project? Yes, it was. So, yeah, it was a few years ago now. And it was fun. You've got some fantastic pictures, uh, you know, cormorants catching fish, jaguars, often

37:33against a fiery red background. And you've got a, a toucan that I gather you had to be a bit patient with. Yes. So, so yeah, I mean, basically I had this opportunity to go to Brazil to the Pantanal, which is the, you know, the world's largest wetlands and the wildlife there is unbelievable, but it was, yeah, it was principally to photograph the jaguars there. And, you know, I, going into it, I thought, oh God, what am I doing here? A bit of a busman's holiday, this, you know, spend all my time shooting, why am I doing this?

38:07And then, you know, you see a jaguar in real life and you just think, wow, I, I, I have to get this. I've got to shoot this. Uh, oh, I photographed this, I should say, just to avoid any confusion. Um, so I did, it was three weeks, I think in Brazil and I just ended, I just completely fell in love with wildlife photography. It's so, it's so distant to what I normally do, which is often very controlled. Like, cause I, you know, I'm a bit of a control freak. Like, so just showing up and having no control over it was, was such a fascinating kind of

38:41professional development experience for me, but with, but with, uh, with the toucan, it was so funny because, I mean, you know, you stay in all these lodges and huts and hotels and it's so varied, but, uh, you know, you're getting up, it's five o'clock in the morning to go out and get them that, that nice light. And, um, I saw these two guys out there and they were just feeding toucans. They were just feeding them with bowls, bowls of fruit, feeding them guava and guava is not native to Brazil. So the toucans absolutely lose their mind because they've never had anything like this

39:16before. And so we were staying a couple of nights. The first, the first day I went out and I was just watching these guys and then at the, you know, they all flew away. And I said to the blokes like, do you use every morning? And they were like, yeah, yeah. And I said, do you think I could come back and take like a portrait of a toucan? And the guys said, no, of course not. That's crazy. No one ever does that. So I thought, okay, I'm definitely going to do it now because I'm such a prepper to the point where I'm quite a boring guy.

39:47I think probably at some point we're difficult to be around. And I brought with me like a big section of green tarpaulin or green material canvas. And so I threw that over a tree branch and I put the stool there with a little bowl of fruit on it, set up the camera and I actually set up a light. Again, I'm a lot of fun on holiday. I took my light with me in a big umbrella or whatever. And then I waited. And the thing was, I knew I was only going to be there for that one day. And I set up at 5.30 in the morning and I got that and I got one.

40:22I got one frame of the toucan landing on the stool and looking and like it was posing for me. And that was about 10.45 in the morning. Yeah. Well, you do need patience as a photographer, not only for toucans, but I guess for the lighting as well. That's right. And it was just, yeah, I thought it was funny as well. I just thought it was maybe a fun, funny thing to do. Well, Drew, it's been wonderful listening to you. You've made me want to become a photographer in my dotage.

40:53Oh, I would highly recommend it. Just don't do it for a living.

40:58You don't want any more competition though. Well, thanks so much. It's been fantastic listening to you. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Drew Forsyth showing, I think, the same single-minded focus that he shares with those he photographs. Thanks for listening. Join me, Bob Chawndy, for another artist interview next week. Bye till then. We'll see you next week. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.

41:28Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. We'll be right back.