Considering Art Podcast – Clare Burnett, sculpting modern urban themes

Introduction

0:00Hello, Bob Chawndy here, with another Considering Art podcast, in which I talk to an artist about their work and something of their life. Claire Burnett makes abstract coloured sculptures inspired by current issues, objects and the

0:30spaces around her. She scavenges materials from her surroundings and uses a variety of processes and techniques to transform them into pieces that somehow interact with each other. Her works are often exhibited outdoors, notably in cities.

Early Life

0:47Claire was raised in Belgium and France, then read Law, Architecture and Social and Political Sciences at Cambridge University. Afterwards, she enrolled at the Byam Shaw School of Art. She has exhibited all over the world and her work is in public collections in Germany, Cyprus, America and China. She's also completed site-specific installations in China, as well as in Britain and France. A recent series called Secret Sentinels was a commission from the Royal Society of Sculptors,

1:17of which she was president from 2015 to 2022. Claire spoke to me from her London studio. Claire Burnett, nice to meet you. Lovely to meet you, Bob. You grew up in Belgium and France. How come? Well, my father worked for an American company and we moved around. How long were you there for? Well, from when I was seven to 18. So my childhood, really. Oh, right. So you speak good French then? I do. I do. It would be embarrassing if I didn't, I think.

1:51You must have loved Brexit then.

1:56I'm just going to go silent. OK.

Academic Studies

2:00Now, Claire, you studied law and social and political sciences at Cambridge. Did you have particular ambitions in that direction? Well, I think when I was a teenager, it was a sort of feminist thing, really. I thought I must do a profession. I must have a profession. So I applied to study law, but then I'd done an art foundation and I sort of school foundation thing. And I thought I really want to do art, but I'd already got into Cambridge. So I changed to architecture before I got there.

2:31But I never really was an architect. And I think I was very immature at the time and I couldn't really think about 3D space then. And I didn't really know what I was going to do. And it was a very, it was a great course, but it was a quite directed course with quite strong views that weren't, that I thought I don't want to do that, but I don't really know what I want to do. So I moved sideways into social and political sciences after about a year and a bit. That was quite interesting, but I then went back to law for a year. So, yeah, I sort of circled around all the subjects.

3:03Do you think that having studied political sciences made you aware of the kind of issues that you have taken up in your art? I think it did. I mean, it was a very good, I think you'd call my course a liberal arts course now, probably. But it was sort of, it was a very good general base. And I think for a long time, I didn't know why I did any of those subjects. But I think now the space and the law actually as well, and the political issues definitely all come into my work. And they've sort of come in all the way through it, but in little bits.

3:33So for a long time, I didn't really realise they were, I couldn't pull them together, really. But now I feel they're all in there. I feel like going out with someone and not knowing why you went out with them. And then afterwards, you know, yeah, I'll see why I went out with them.

3:46So art was always bubbling under then? It was. I mean, I think if somebody had said to me, what do you enjoy doing best, rather than what are you best at? I would have said I enjoy making all the way through. But they never asked that question, because I was sort of quite strong academically. So I was asked what I was good at.

Career Shift

4:05And you worked on the government HIV AIDS campaign in the late 1980s. Was that just raising consciousness about it? It was for the Health Education Authority. And yes, it was. It was a well, it was it was the public education programme. I mean, that was very influential. I mean, it was a terrible time. It was a bit it was very like the It's a Sin TV programme, really. And and it was a terrible thing to see all these young men dying, really, because at that point, there wasn't really a cure. They were the welcome drugs was just were just coming in.

4:36But it was really not great. And it was at that point that I thought, hold on a minute, if I had this if I was in this predicament, I mean, not obviously that as bad as that. But what would I do? And I thought, well, I would go to art school. And that was why I went to art school, really. So that was the trigger to get out of the office world. And any regrets about doing it as a more mature student? No, I mean, in the end, you don't have regrets about anything, do you think? OK, it all adds it all adds together to what to your life, really. And that that all informs what you do. I suppose for quite a long time, I thought it was a bit frustrating that I'd ended art school when I was 30, had got married, had kids and I'd carried on practising.

5:16But I didn't have that 20s thing where you can do what you like and do lots of small shows and and be a bit freer, maybe. But I've I've had it at the end because I've had a really good last decade where the kids have left home and I've and my parents have been well and I've been been able to do a bit more time on again. And so so I think you get it. I used to think if I don't really think it so much now, it's slower getting getting going, I think, because I was trying to keep my practice together with quite active kids. But it all came good. And you were originally a painter, weren't you?

5:50I was. I mean, I think I I still really think as a painter in some ways I was brought up, as you mentioned, in France, in a in a village where quite a lot of the Impressionists painted. And so with a very big sort of, I suppose, canon sort of tradition, really. And I still think about complementary colours and desaturation and and and various things. But I think as a painter, I used to make my own paints and I used to play around with pigments and things. So I think probably I was a maker without realising it, but I was quite conventional to begin with.

6:21And maybe that's the mature student thing. You go in with a bit more of a fixed idea that's stuck at the school, your school moment. And maybe if I'd gone to art school at 18, I would have been a bit more flexible to begin with. And so it came more slowly. But I think I am sort of a bit of both. But I deal with everything I do has a colour in it. And that's a big part of my practice, really.

Sculpture Discovery

6:44When did you discover sculpture? Well, it was a very slow process. I would say I just slowly my work came off the wall. As I left college, I was painting in pairs of the same colour. So pairs of reds or pairs of blues. And then I went to a very influential show, the Ellsworth Kelly show at the Tate a long time ago. And I just it was like this sort of light bulb of it doesn't have to be in a rectangle. It can relate to the whole space around it. For a while, I made works which were shapes on the wall and then they slowly came off the wall.

7:18And I was using quite a lot of pigment material at that point. I was making my mixing pigments and playing around with grinding them with like smoothing, sort of sanding them and things. So it was, yeah, I wouldn't say it was a quick. This is exactly what I've got to do. I think all the roots of everything I've done felt quite separate for quite a long time. And they slowly come. Now I can see what they all that they were all in there all the time. But at that time, they felt a little bit like, what am I doing? So, yeah. Anyway, you say in your artist statement, you're inspired by issues, objects and spaces around me.

7:54What are the main issues that concern you? I think that I'm really interested about how complicated it is to live in the 21st century. That everything we buy, we touch, we own everything we do have these sort of moral, ethical questions around them, but that to which there's no real answer. You think you're doing the right thing, then you find you were doing the wrong thing. So everything you buy, I'm going to buy those beans and then you find they've been shipped in and then something's in plastic. And then overriding all of that is this convenience problem that we all want something to be quick.

8:28I do. I've got ADHD and I'm quite sort of like, right, I need it now. I can't wait. And it's all there to be taken. And then with all the problems that that gives rise to. So I sort of touch a lot on things like surveillance, because again, like in our street, you know, there's lots of people who've got those ring doorbells. And that's all very well. It's very convenient. You can see when the postman's coming. But it also means there's occasionally a sort of flurry of somebody who's a perfectly innocent person who lives maybe a bit, who's a bit more on the edge and who's sort of scurrying in the bins or everyone wants to know who they are.

9:08And I think the surveillance systems draw in people who live on the edge a bit. I mean, it's that balance, isn't it, between safety, I suppose, and lack of privacy. Yeah, exactly. I mean, a lot of the artists I interview are inspired by nature, but you're more urban, aren't you? You're clearly inspired by cities. I am. That's terrible. It's a terrible thing to say, really, because I've always lived in capital cities, which sounds terrible, but that's just how it is.

9:42And I'm really, so I feel that I can dig a bit deeper in it. You can always dig a bit deeper in the place that you go. When I go to the countryside, it's very nice, but I don't really know, I sort of read my book and don't really feel like making art particularly. I mean, if I do go, I notice things like the machinery and things or the advertisements, but I don't, but I've always been really interested about how can you put colour in an urban environment and form and it stand out, but not dominate. It invites people. There are so many people, so, I mean, I love the whole people thing, so it integrates with people, but particularly that colour in a busy urban environment where there are so many advertisements, the buses, the buildings, so many things shouting at you.

10:26And so that's been a really a lifelong sort of quest, really, I think, which I feel I'm sort of finding solutions to now, but have taken a long time to find solutions to. You use a lot of found materials, don't you? So what and where do you scavenge for these materials? So skips, quite a lot of skips in London are quite full of builder's materials, really. For quite a few projects, I've used insulation, the insulation, sort of polystyrene insulation that's in, that I find.

10:56And on the street, things people leave out on the street, sometimes friends will ring me and say, oh, I've just seen this pile of things that'd be interesting. Sometimes I use found materials, sometimes I use mass-produced materials that, things like things from Ikea and from the supermarket, that you would, I like the idea that there's a resonance beyond what you see, so that you might think, oh, I've sort of half recognised that. But it might change your perception of a space that's some of the space beyond you when you go home, you might suddenly notice something you hadn't noticed before.

11:27What's the most unusual thing you've found? Oh, well, quite a lot of engine parts that I don't know what they are. Funny cog things. I don't always use them, but I like, and I have to be, because I'm in a London studio, which is, you know, means that it's, it's not like I've got a large barn with a big storage. So my hand goes forward and then it, it comes back again. But to be honest, I really like the really everyday, the bottles and the, you know, the things that just we all use, we handle every day and that we don't really look at.

11:59I think I like those better than the unusual things in some ways. And you said that you remove preconceived hierarchies from the objects you find. Yeah, exactly. I think, I think there are so many hierarchies in the art world, aren't there, about materials particularly and what's worthy of showing and what isn't, but particularly material. I mean, I'm very interested in that thing of why bronze is so seen as something of value and plastic not. And yet, if you think about the processes, I mean, I make, I've made bronze by picking out in COVID, I had a go at making it just by picking up copper pipes that were left in skips and mixing it with a bit of other metal.

12:38And there you've got bronze, it's so easy to make, but plastic is all oil and a process and then, and then blown up to be, you know, to stretch it. And it's got all these processes. And I've got, I really think, you know, if oil goes, the plastic will become unbelievably valuable, but it's also a sort of bigger ethical thing, really, that I don't like hierarchies between people either. So it's a thing about, about not prejudging, really. That's going back to your social science studies.

13:12You made some yellow plastic structures from one of your residences, wasn't it? I think from Mexico. Yes, in Mexico. Yeah, that, I mean, that was probably the beginning of me using the plastics really sculpturally. And I did a resident, that Brooke Bennington residency in Mexico City. And I just made a public art piece in China that was yellow. And it's very overwhelming, Mexico City. And I was there for a month and I was thinking, what am I going to, you know what, I wandered around the market.

13:43Have you been to Mexico City? So I've got all these, it's got an amazing center where the, each street, one will sell, one street will sell dishwashers and the next will sell stationery and the next will sell dolls. And so it's got all these different streets, but it's quite overwhelming. And I wandered around for probably about a week, just wandering around. And I just kept on noticing all the yellow plastics in the market. And it was probably from having just done this Chinese sculpture. So I started collecting them and then started making sculptures out of them. And that began, I mean, I've just come back from Cyprus where I did similar, different forms, but a similar thing.

14:19So you mentioned China there, you did a residency there. You have recently done a site-specific work in Shanghai, haven't you? Well, I've been in a competition, whether it'll ever happen. I don't know. I mean, I've been selected, but paid for it, but whether it'll ever actually happen. It was very interesting working in China. And I think you go with a lot of preconceived ideas and some of them are right and some of them are wrong. Did you have to research the area where your thing will be exhibited, if it's exhibited?

14:51I did. And in fact, I've been working for a couple of years, I've been working on a project about the Opium War and the Boxer War and provenance of objects in museums. And I had begun just before applying for that, I begun to look at plants and how they traveled with missionaries. When after the Opium War, the middle of China opened out and then a lot of European missionaries went in and a lot of them were plant collectors. And they sent the plants that we see as our English country garden plants.

15:23What sort of like rhododendrons? Magnolias and and lots of roses, any and and there are a whole category, anything with Davidus in it at the end of it, all the Latin things, you know, I mean, Chinesis, obviously. But there's also quite a lot of the the explore that the missionaries who found it. And then with the Boxer War, where missionaries were attacked, the whole thing closed down again. So there was this little period. So I've been looking at it and I made for that. I was really interested with that competition about the idea everything had passed through Shanghai port.

15:55So I made my proposal was a series of sculptures which were based on magnolia seeds that had passed through the port in the 19th century. Not opium seeds, not opium seeds. I left that alone. That's another disgrace. Absolutely. Yeah. So anyway, you go out and you scavenge for these found materials. Then you take them back to the studio. What processes do you use from there? So at that point, so before I do that, what I tend to do is I do quite a lot of research beforehand.

16:25And if I'm working on a project, so that might be in libraries or drawing or making little models or just just looking at things. And then I go out and collect and then I come back to the studio. And at that point, I try and forget everything I've looked at, really, so that it becomes a much more instinctive thing. I found it took me a long time to find a process that gets rid of my logical bit of my brain and stuff and sort of liberates me to just make. And that I'm going to make. So then I play, really. And I play for quite a long time, piling things up, sort of collaging work together.

16:58And then starting making. And also experimenting with materials because I try and find materials that really relate to the project that I'm doing, that are relevant. And sometimes that'll mean learning new, completely new skills. Oh, really? Is that mainly technology? No, it could be, for example, with the Chinese project, I made a series of works which were made out of Chinese sort of plastic tat. But I lacquered them, so I had to learn all about lacquering and work out how I was going to do it, paper pulp, welding, anything really.

17:33I mean, each sort of project, fiberglassing, whatever I need to do. So there's often, I mean, I've just been working a lot in clay, but I haven't really worked that much in clay until the last two or three years. And I did it because I've been working on this project, the current exhibition in Cyprus, where I wanted to look at materials that had traveled around the world. Right. I mean, do you use computer-aided design at all? I do. Yeah, I do. I tend to go backwards and forwards from it. So, for example, if I'm working on a public proposal, a public art proposal, I might make little models and drawings.

18:08And then I might use Blender, which I'm not very good at, but I can just about manage and sort of make a visualization of it. And then I'll print it out in, I've got like a 3D printer, I'll print it out, and then I'll take it back to my studio and play with it and adjust it and then go back into the computer again. So that's how I tend to work with it. And again, with Photoshop, for proposals, but also for scale and things, it's really easy. And sometimes color as well, you can, by adjusting things, you can get new ideas or just check you're working at the right scale.

18:41Let's look at some of your work.

Artistic Process

18:43Secret Sentinels was originally a commission from the Royal Society of Sculptures.

18:50You've got various signature bulbous objects and shapes with various protrusions. And you've put thousands of glass mosaics on them, haven't you? Yes. So that's really going back. So that was a great, that was an opportunity. They have a great program of work on the forecourt at the Royal Society of Sculptures. And so it was a lovely opportunity. And it was also something I really wanted to do. I mean, we all have imposter syndrome. And you mentioned I was a painter. So I've always had this slight imposter syndrome.

19:20I thought, right, I really want to make some really big sculptures completely from scratch. My set, you know, weld them and build them and, and just, I know that I can do it. So now I can do it and know which bits I'm not doing again. But I've used fabric, I'm not anti-fabricators at all, but I just wanted to build those pieces. The glass tiles are part of the, the thing we discussed before about color in the city. So it's been a long time coming. I've used a lot, I've used paint a lot, but I just find it scuffs or it needs re-powder coating

19:53or it's always problematic really. And, but the glass tiles are a much tougher surface. And I, I started playing with them actually not in that, in that work, but I started playing with them when I did a residency at Electro Studios in St. Leonard's and, and it was a sort of time-based project where I got some old sort of defunct washing machines delivered and took them apart and rebuilt and made them into sculptures. And I tiled those pieces, not with glass tiles, but with ceramic tiles.

20:23And it made me think, hold on a minute, this is quite, the ceramic tiles aren't suitable for outside, but what else could I use? And so it began with that. And then I started looking at Gaudi and Niki de Saint-Fal and all those sculptures outside in, in glass tile outside. Well, of course, the glass reflects light as well, doesn't it? So that gives it an extra dimension. It's frost proof, it's sun proof. So yeah, so it has a good, and I really enjoy playing with the, going back to the painting,

20:53really playing with how the grout that I use changes the color of the tiles. There's no way around sticking them on because they're irregular. You have to stick, you can't put them on in sheets, you have to stick them on by hand. So that's fairly time consuming, I guess. It is time consuming. You get in a bit of a rhythm, but it is. To be honest, all the sort of building up the layers underneath and changing the forms, that's sort of more time consuming almost. But then, but yeah, once you're at the sticking phase, it's, it is time consuming. And these secret sentinels, that goes back to the surveillance issues. It does.

21:24That was really, my idea there was, because the Royal Society of Sculptures used to, was, was originally, it was two Georgian cottages. And then it was, it was renovated in the turn of the 19th century by court photographers, Elliot and Fry. And, and I was interested in the idea that they'd had all those cameras inside. And yet outside in Chelsea, there are all these cameras in the street and the houses, things as well. So it was a sort of very gentle nod to that. And then when it, when they went into sculpture in the city, it was more so, because I think there are more surveillance cameras in the city than any other square mile,

21:54square kilometer or mile of the world on there. You create interactions between your pieces too, don't you? Yes. I sort of like, it's all about relationships, really. You know, it's all about my relation, me getting a, having a relationship with the piece, although I'm quite short. So sometimes I think things are really tall and they're not, obviously not. I stand on a box and realize they're not, they're not so, they're not so big that, you know, that, that, sorry, I think they're quite big and they're not, yeah. But I like the idea that then they start reacting with each other.

22:24And then people, when people visit them, there's also, there are all these interactions with the space with it, but a bit like people, I think I was quite heavily influenced by Miranda and I don't know if it's true, but I read an article once about how all his bottles and things that it was all about the fascist government and things. But this idea that inanimate objects are also like people as well. I think it is quite similar to what I do to Miranda in some ways. Yeah. I've seen a couple of your pieces whispering to each other. Yeah.

22:56Another series, you'll give and take current one. Again, you've got vessels with glass mosaics of various size. And you say that these examine our patterns of acquisition. What did you mean by that? Yes, so I'm very, because I've been looking quite a lot at looting as well and artifacts in my Cyprus shows. I'm interested in, well, ownership, our sort of desire to own and whether there are too many objects. There's a great IKEA director quote about have we reached peak stuff and how we want to

23:28acquire and over history, how that's happened, really. So that's what that is about. So part of my thing about the objects is this dilemma about what do you do about materials and objects, really? I mean, what do we do? Then we leave them all and, you know, look at the V&A storehouse. It's fantastic. There are so many things. And how do we keep on? Do we need to keep on collecting them? And what do you do with them? A number of books I've got in my house that I no longer read. I just don't know what to do with them. No, I had a great idea once, which, of course, as usual, I didn't do, but was that you would

24:02have a little, like, very slow-moving one of those photo screens. And every time you got rid of a book, you would photograph its spine. And then there would be like a virtual bookshop that would... Because that's the nice thing, books, is to see what you've read, isn't it? It's not really, you can easily get hold of another one at the library if you need another one. But yes, that is the dilemma, isn't it? That we carry these. You think about when you're 18, it's so liberating not having a lot of stuff and not having a lot of admin. And then slowly...

24:33I find people I know fit into two groups. They're either hoarders or chuckers. Yeah, I'm a bit of a chucker. And then always you chuck and you think, oh, there's always something you shouldn't have chucked. But I mean, yeah, I tend to chuck. And sometimes that work as well. I mean, that's the London studio thing. Yeah. Let's talk about, you mentioned your latest exhibition in Cyprus called The Objects of Watching. What are the themes of that? So really, they start from everyday objects, everyday objects from the past and everyday

25:04objects now. So household, everyday household objects, pots and jugs and vases. Sort of the everyday things that you would, that we would all touch every day. And similarly, their equivalent, which is the plastics today. The gallery is run by this absolutely wonderful woman, Maria Stati, who curates beautifully, but used to work at Anthony Reynolds here. So she's, I've been working with her for a while. And so I looked at the artefacts, particularly in Berlin, because I've got a studio in Berlin

25:36at the moment. And I was looking at the collection in Berlin, which is full of a lot of terracotta everyday bowls. And I'm really interested about that value thing, how they've suddenly become so valuable, but they were just everyday items in every household in Cyprus. And then also how the plastics in the future will become the future archaeology. And then the title of the show, The Objects We're Watching, is really about how these household items are like these silent witnesses to our lives, our personal lives, but also our political

26:08lives. And that's hence the sort of the flags and all the symbols and things are from my drawings and studies of the objects. But I'm really interested both in Cyprus and here in the political situation as well. So I don't want to judge. It's a sort of non-judgmental. That's my law bit. I like that neutral stance. You know, here it is. You decide. You can have your opinion. It's a subtext of my opinion, but it's not, I hope, thrown in people's faces. Well, that's a beauty of art, isn't it?

26:39You can make your own mind up on these things. Claire, you were president of the RSS between 2015 and 2022. I'm kind of interested in what criteria did you and your fellow trustees set for choosing who can become a member? Well, it's always difficult, that, isn't it? I mean, it's a jury-led, it's a jury-led. You're taking me back slightly. There were criteria, and I can't list them now. The idea is that it's a society that support, where professional sculptors support each other,

27:11really, that's its core. We wanted, I think, sculptors who engaged with now, rather than sculptors who could have worked in the 19th century and had never, never, as if they didn't live in the 21st century. But that doesn't mean issue-based. It doesn't mean that we had lots of process-based, of, like, pure process-based sculptors who became members as well. But the jury was the members of the board, and so as each board changes, there's an inevitable change. And so, I mean, I always would say to people, look, you need to take any comments on board.

27:42It's difficult, because when a lot of people apply, we can't give individual feedback. But there were regular things, like unprofessional photography, things that almost, or maybe just one body of work that people would put in, which looked like their MA work, for example, but they hadn't gone on to make another body of work. So there were sort of regular things where people would develop further and come back. But it was difficult, but it was also the greatest. I loved that bit of it. I loved that. And I loved the bursary award of seeing what people were doing coming out of art school

28:12and what people were doing at, you know, seeing all those sculptors' work. It was an absolute pleasure. Is sculpture in a healthy condition at the moment? The reason I ask is that we're all having, you know, cost of living problems and so on. And sculpture is a much more expensive art form, isn't it? OK, so, yeah, so it depends which angle you take. I mean, I think there is more sculpture around. I mean, when I first became a member of the Royal Society of Sculptors quite a long time ago, you wouldn't ever even say you were a sculptor, because that was seen as quite old-fashioned

28:42to say you were a sculptor. You would say you were an artist. So I think there's been a real move, probably with the sensation and then, you know, the whole British art movement and things to where you can say you're a sculptor and there's not a value judgment put on it. I mean, I would say with the public still, if you say you're a sculptor, people automatically assume you work in bronze or stone, really, or wood, maybe. But there's not really, I don't know if it's reached out. In terms financially, I think sculpture is very difficult. I mean, you know, galleries say over and over again, they can't sell sculpture.

29:15I mean, actually, I have to sell sculpture, so that's good. But I think the public find it difficult to buy. I think in the UK it's harder because we've got radiators and sofas and things are on the floor in a way. I think maybe if we lived in a country where there were big open, you know, we had underfloor heating and nice big glass windows to the floor, we might have more sculpture in them as well. Well, so you'll have to invent a nice sculpture that heats up then. Yes, that's true. That's a very good idea. Very good idea. That's another new technique to learn. But yes, I think it's a mixture.

29:47So I think there's not, I think financially it's very difficult for sculptors. You've got an exhibition coming up, a public sculpture called Seed Links. Tell us about that. So that is a, that's been a wonderful experience. That's in Timber Square in SC1. So a couple of roads south of Tate Modern. And it was an open competition run by Hive Curates for Landsec, the developers. And they were developing two buildings. One of them was the old print, the IPC magazines print building, and then building a new building on the site of an old timber yard in Southwark.

30:22And that was the brief really, is to, was to make a site specific work for the center of the square. And it went through various different processes. And then we started making it, it all got pushed a bit. So we started, we'd be, we were full at it for three months. So that was me. And I had two fantastic assistants, Indigo and Kayla, without whom we couldn't have done it really. So, and then Sharon, who came and did the grouting, epoxy grouting for it. And the idea is that the forms are related to the seeds of the timbers that were traded on the site, the oak and mahogany and pine.

30:57And they're sort of global trade stories of coming from the Baltic and Jamaica and mahogany was part of the slave trade. So all of those stories that go with it. And the colors are CMYK, so cyan, magenta and yellow from the print, those printing colors that are in a, that you see little blocks of in every magazine or newspaper. Great. Finally, Claire, I've done a detailed analytic research into your Instagram account. And it begs a fundamental question.

31:28Are you ready for this? Yes. Are you trying to get on Strictly Come Dancing?

31:35My dancing, I do, I quite often do that when I'm cold in my studio or when I'm a bit like, I can't quite get going. And I did it a few times and then people say, well, you should do it again. And then I thought, oh, well, it's an occasional thing, but it just, yeah. I mean, there is that fundamental thing that I think bodies are sculptures. There's also another thing, which I'm a middle-aged woman and I don't care anymore.

31:58Why should Instagram be full of beautiful young women? I'm going to go out there. So it's sort of, it's a sort of impulse thing usually when I do it. Okay, great. Well, I'll look forward to the Paso Doble. Actually, I did, I have done a little video, which I will release once the seedlings is up in the, in the stoop, because we made the work in the arches at the back of the, of the site. And those arches used to have raves in the 80s. So I thought I had to do a little dance for that. So I will, I will release that.

32:29Oh, that really is site specific. Claire, thanks so much for talking about your work. It's been a joy and very entertaining too. Thank you. Claire Burnett, still a raver at heart. I hope you enjoyed Claire. Join me, Bob Chaundie, for another artist interview next week. Bye till then.

33:03Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.