Cape Fear with Eva Anderson

Welcome and taglines

0:00Thank you.

0:30Every man carries a circle of hell around his head like a halo. Your daddy, too. Every man, every man has to go through hell to reach his podcast. I can't do Max Cady. No, but I mean, you're doing a, you know, you're doing a not foot to the floor, you know, version of it. Every man. Yeah, but it's because he does go. He goes into a high register.

1:00Uh, yeah. Yeah. No, he's, uh, just, um, a little more jalapeno in the gumbo or whatever. There is. It's a spicy gumbo. I thought about doing the tagline, Sam Bowden has always provided for his family's future, but his past is coming back to, well, no, but the podcast is coming back to haunt them. That's what it should be. Is this the best opening I've ever done? It's the strongest, the most powerful. Let's see if there's any other taglines, uh, around here. Cause this feels like a classic. No. From the acclaimed director of Goodfellas, which was a pretty compelling tagline.

1:33It's just a great poster. It is. The, the eyes, you know, you know the poster. Yeah. But also the ripped photo and the rip photo and the water and the boat and the lightning. It's, it's a pretty perfect poster and a great, a great title. Cape Fear. To the point that the movie basically starts with Juliette Lewis being like, I don't know why they call it Cape Fear. Kind of a crazy thing to call something. It's just like, yeah, you know why? Cause it's a great title for a movie, baby. Especially when the book was called The Executioners, which is a terrible title for this story.

The history of Cape Fear

2:03That is true. Yes. Um, is it a real place Cape Fear? It is, right? It is. Gregory Peck was the one who demanded they change the title. Right. Because he thought The Executioner sounded trashy. And he was like, Cape Fear. Like, saw it on a map. It was like, Cape Fear. That's a good name. It is a good name. Yeah. So it's not like he was like, I vacation in Cape Fear once in autumn and I think we should do a movie about it. He invested in property in Cape Fear and was trying to drive up the value. Uh, no one will buy it cause they're afraid of it.

2:36They think it's a scary place. So let's make the scariest movie possible about it and then everyone will move in. Uh, why is it called Cape Fear? Let's see. It's in Florida? No, it's in North Carolina. Oh, interesting. Uh, in the Tidewater region near Wilmington. He was responsible for the title of the film as he found the novel title kind of a turnoff quote. It's kind of a bad title for, it doesn't tell you what the movie is going to be about. Yeah. Happened to find the Cape Fear region when looking for Atlantic coast locations.

3:06That's all that's said on Wikipedia. I'm just loving the idea that he's just like, calls J. Lee Thompson. It's like, I'm reading this here, Atlas. Now, I'm not sure why I'm making Gregory Peck into this sort of like, you know, Kentucky fried chicken character. Yeah, exactly. Colonel Sanders. He's famously waspy. I know. I mean, he did play Atticus Finch. I am reading this thing. I was like, I cracked open the Atlas today. My favorite book to read, the Atlas. Now you sound like Gregory Peck. My impression of Gregory Peck, I would need glasses. I feel like I'm just like holding a pair of glasses.

3:39Yes. I found an interesting name on a map. I think the book takes place in Florida, too. I think that's right. Completely. And they have a little boat, but it's just like, the book is just like, we have a little boat we go out on. It's on a houseboat. We never reach a houseboat. There's a sun. The sun gets shot with a gun in the shoulder. Oh, right. They take out a kid entirely. Well, they just like shoot him in the arm. Okay. Yeah.

The premise of the story

4:02It's a perfect premise. There's a reason this keeps getting made. I do think it is a perfect premise. Sure. Okay. When you say a perfect premise, do you just mean like, what if there was a guy that was so bad and he wouldn't leave you alone? Yeah. Just sort of like the guy from hell. Yes. Because like Bill Simmons talks a lot about like X from hell, right? It's like a great premise. Yeah. So it's like the house from hell, the neighbor from hell, roommate from hell. That's always good. But K-Fear is like, let's boil it down even more simple. Just the worst guy ever hates you. I think. Because you fucked up and like you maybe, you know, you maybe have a little bit of it coming.

4:36I think that's the added element. Of course. Which is the, right. You fucked up his case in some way. Yeah. And he has spent his entire prison sentence planning to fuck with you. Learning how to fuck you. Yes. But it is just funny that it's like fundamentally what's going on is like this guy just won't leave you alone. Yes. And unfortunately he's scary and a psycho. In the book though, The Executioners, which is like a hundred pages long. Wow. It's very short. A novella. It's that the lawyer, who's, who's the name of the character? Who's Nick Nolte? Nick Nolte. Do you want me to use?

5:07He is Sam Yul G. Bowden. So in the book, Bowden just was a soldier. Yes. Who caught Katie assaulting somebody while he were soldiering around town. Yes. He testified against him. Yes. He didn't do anything wrong. Do the whole, like, I buried, you know, the evidence that might have saved you thing. That's not in the book. Weirdly, Gregory Peck in the, in 62 version was like a lawyer that walked past an alley and caught him assaulting somebody. But he also just testified against him.

5:39He's just a lawyer. This version is the best version of the setup. Yeah. He did something wrong. Yes. He lied and buried evidence. The Scorsese version. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it makes the most sense. It's like he has a grievance now. And also, Nolte is, like, guilty for something. He knows he did something wrong. I didn't realize that there was an original film. There's an original film. It is good. It's awesome. Yeah. It's really good. But yes, in the original film, he's, it's more irrationally like, well, you just blew my case. Yes. Because I was found guilty. Right. And it's like, well, you were found guilty because here, as we can tell, a bit of a scary individual who does bad things.

6:10But in the book, in the original movie, it's more like, you caught me. I've never gotten over that. Yeah. Versus you had a responsibility, which it's, it's the greatest aspect of Max Cady that he just spent 14 years in prison. Just doing push-ups. Learning law. Yeah, learning law. Yeah. Learning to read. Yeah. Robert Mitchum is really awesome in the 60s version. I do recommend. He has really cool hats and he's a really chill version of Max Cady. Yeah. One other thing about the book is that the book's all from the point of view of Bowden.

6:42Okay. Like, it's in his head. And you barely get to know Max Cady at all. It's just like, he's like Jaws. He's just like, he'll pop up. Yeah. And then disappear. But he like, he, as soon as they had to put him on film, Max Cady becomes the star of the movie in a way. But in the book, it's about this horny lawyer who like loves his wife and his dog. Like, when does Night of the Hunter come out relative to, it's 55, so it's seven years earlier. Night of the Hunter is 55, so yeah, many years earlier. Because it's one of the things I find interesting about this movie is it also feels like Square says he kind of folds Night of the Hunter into Cape Fear.

7:17Totally. Like, he's sort of remaking both movies. Yeah. Especially with the river and everything. Stylistically. And just the southern gothicness and all that. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the performance is almost closer. Yeah. Yeah. Robert Mitchum. Good actor. Cool-ass movie star. He's so fucking cool as Max Cady. He's so cool. He like always has his hat just like tilted down over his eyes. Well, well, well. Yeah. And he just like comes up to a woman in one scene and she's like, are you trying to make a pass at me or something? And he goes like, yep.

7:48And then he just walks away. He's so relaxed. He's very relaxed Max Cady. And then he's just sort of like, a woman wants to, is fine just having regular sex with him. He's like, that's not what I do. And then she's like, I got to get out of town. And the next time you see her, it's like, he's just a horrible rapist. Yes. Canonically. Yes. Cape Fear is the movie we're discussing on this podcast.

Burger King chicken sandwiches

8:14It is the subject of this episode. It's the subject of this podcast, which is called Blank Check with Griffin and David. And I'm Griffin. And I'm David. That was a classic long one. That was a real. It really was. Burger King chicken long boy. They still have those? Oh, yeah. And it's just like, what if it was longer? Yeah. Like, that's the gimmick. I feel like I've only. It's just chicken sandwich. Flat and long. And dry. And dry. I feel like I've only ever gotten them at airports.

8:44Yeah. It's just funny that they're like, oh, you can't just do the McChicken. Right. What if it's like a rectangle? Is that different enough? But I feel like when they started, that was their only chicken option to differentiate. And now they're also like, okay, fine. We'll have a regular looking chicken sandwich. Right. They do. I think they do. Yeah, because Chick-fil-A made it so that everyone had to have one. Right. I think. Yeah. Yeah. But they still got that long boy, I believe. Let's double check that. Will you double check that while I introduce the podcast? Does it have a name apart from long boy? It's called a, it's, we're talking about Burger King?

9:15Burger King chicken long boy. It is called the long chicken. It's called the long chicken? That is incredible. Long time favorite since 1979. Wow. Okay. So they got there early. Yes. Yes. But they do, of course, as you said, they, they also have the BK chicken crisp, which is just kind of like a McChicken. And then they have something called French chicken, which is a long boy with like bacon and Swiss. Interesting. It's like a cordon bleu. Yeah.

9:45Okay. Interesting. It seems like it was originally called the original chicken sandwich. And then they redubbed it the long boy once they added the regular size chicken. Possibly. Uh, that makes sense. That makes sense. Because they were basically like, we know what you call it. Right. Like, you know, we know what you think it is in your head. Yes. It's the long one. If you want it long, that's what you should say. This is a podcast about chicken sandwiches. What if they had a machine that could make anything stretched?

10:16Great. So you could just sort of be like, hey, can I get like a Baconator and just stretch it? Oh, that's Wendy's. But you know, like whatever, BK King, just stretch. A long whopper. Yeah. Just make it. Yeah. A long whopper. Yeah. Make it a rectangle for me. Yeah. Yeah. That's all. What if they just announced that was their angle? This is how we're competing with all other fast food chains. We do everything longer. Two foot French fries. Long fries. Or maybe you could make square French fries. You could go opposite. Well, then that's sort of stepping on Wendy's, White Castle territory. I feel like they own the square shit. I mean, I know Wendy's is like, they're doing the whole thing where we're like, we know we're

10:48bad. Yeah. We're so sorry. Yes. But I'm like, that's not enough. Like, they're bad now. No one cares. And White Castle is beyond. No one goes to White Castle. I mean, that's like a recipe for disaster. Pizza Turnaround, the Domino's campaign, one of the greatest advertising campaigns of all time. They were smart enough to go, we have to do this in one fell swoop. We have to do one ad in which we read the feedback. Go, this is tough. We're announcing we're about to get better. Here's how we're better. Right. Here are the new recipes. And they did. Right. They were like, we have a new sauce or whatever. Right. Yeah. Cheese.

11:19But it was all in one. Cheese. It was all in one ad. Right. Yeah. One campaign was like, here's what's been going on for the last year. Step one, step two, step three. Yeah. And now new items. Right. New recipes. Wendy's, the CEO just keeps going like, I apologize. I put profits above taste and our food has been terrible. Anyway, see you soon. End of statement. And you're like, what? I mean, I said this and this is this episode is coming up pretty soon. So like, I think, you know, uh, I told you this about, um, you know, what I was thinking about the social reckoning where I'm like, has Aaron Sorkin said on any, in any interview,

11:53like I'm happy Jeremy strong was in my movie and he did a good job because I feel like every interview I read with him, he's just like, ah, man, I just can't believe Jesse Eisenberg turned me down. I wrote this for him. Yeah. I had a meeting. I told him I was going to send him this script and I don't know what happened. He did say like, just the, the strong was the greatest living actor. I'm sure he's, obviously he's worked with him multiple times. Like, I don't think there's any enmity, but if I'm Jeremy strong at a certain point, I'm like, I get it. I was not the first choice.

12:23And it's just like a weird way to advertise your movie that it's like a good actor turned this down, by the way. He didn't want to do it. I don't know why. And I took no lessons from that. Maybe he smelled something. Who knows? Anyway. Weirdly, he's like a writer director now making his own movies and he knows when scripts are good. It does speak to something perhaps. Uh, it's just like, cause it's so easy. You could just be like, oh, well, you know, like, you know, that movie was a long time ago and I understand him not wanting to repeat the performance. Like you just say that. Yes. Anyway. Just funny to me.

12:54And that's what Wendy's doing. Like, we know we're, it's no good. Anyway, we're open from like 10 to six. You can come anytime if you want. Like a lot of occasions. You close at six. I don't know when they close. It's Wendy's close. Six feels like they're not even. I guess it's a good point. If it's like, someone's like, well, I'm off work. You close at the beginning of dinner time? Wendy's, if I were you, I would not be cutting out the drunk person market. I would make sure I was keeping the doors open. Most Wendy's close at midnight. Okay.

13:24Fair enough. All right. That's the first step to being better. Yeah. We promise we're not going to close.

Martin Scorsese filmographies

13:31Griffin, who's our guest? This is a podcast about filmographies. These directors who have massive success early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. Sometimes those checks clear. Sometimes they bounce, baby. And sometimes they do one for them. This is Marty's third one for them in his career. So, uh, Color Money? Boxcar Birth is the original. Sure. Yes. A little different where it's just like, look, I'll do anything. Yes. He was Nolte mode there. And then he went Nolte mode again. I'll do anything. And Cape Fear. Yes.

14:03Um, but, uh, but a fascinating film that ended up being much like Color of Money, his highest grossing film up until that point in time. Um, I believe that's true. I, I was certainly, it's impossible to check now. Yeah. Uh, that's actually good. All right. So Color of Money made, come on now, come on numbers. Come on now. Wake up for me. $52 million. So, very good. Cape Fear made $79 million. Quite robust. And I don't think that gets eclipsed until Aviator, right?

14:33Right. What did Gangs of New York make? Gangs of New York made like 70? Like, I mean, I know it didn't make a hundred, but it made, it made 77. So, you know, not as, yeah. And then Casino made 42. Right. Yeah. So, yeah, this is Scorsese's biggest domestic hit. And I'm sure worldwide hit. Mm-hmm. And, uh, that is funny, in a way, considering that this is a very dark and violent movie. Yes. That's very fucked up. Yes. And honestly, got, like, good but not even amazing reviews.

15:06You know what I mean? Like... It's also weirdly stylized. Yeah. Yes. It's a bit of an exercise. Yes. One might argue. Yes. Right? But it kind of played like a Hollywood thriller. I mean... And it got multiple Oscar nominations. Obviously... And it entered the culture. It entered the culture and was parodied by The Simpsons. And, like, obviously, The Simpsons parody now stands alone as the most important adaptation of the novel by Jane John McDonald, The Execution. Yeah. We cannot argue. It's the final perfect form of this killer premise. It's like, Simpsons is number one. Except more than the play.

15:37The Mr. Burns. Oh, well... The post-electric play. Where they do the Simpsons episode of Cape Fear in Mr. Burns. They do. So that it goes one step further. Yeah. And that's true. And Digger is kind of doing Mr. Burns, a post-electric... We can talk about this. Can we talk about this now? It's out. Okay. It's probably gone at this point. You don't think we can talk about it? I was betting that Digger was a kaiju movie. I was wrong about this. I thought the big twist in Digger was going to be that Digger has to fight a kaiju with a shovel. Have you seen Digger? I haven't seen it yet, but the twist is that the world ends and then he has to deal with

16:09it? No. I mean, the movie's been out for a month. Truly, I can say... I think people are going to get mad at us. Number one, it's not the twist. It is the premise. Because I put it in my review. I was like, I can't review this movie without discussing the conceit of the movie. And I've said this to you. I think they should have marketed with the twist. Yeah. So it would have been hard, but no, the premise is that what we are watching is a play that is dramatizing events that already happen. Okay. Got it. Got it. And is sort of like satirizing or trying to work through this sort of whatever. It's Birdman again?

16:39But the world is in a bad place. So it's very Mr. Burns. It's not like the world ended, it's not quite as apocalyptic as Mr. Burns, but we are in a sort of environmentally catastrophic future. Things suck. Yes. Okay. Got it. Got it. That's more interesting than I thought the twist would be. My reaction too. And the reason Griff thought it was a kaiju movie is that they called like the iceberg that like is floating around Judy. And in the trailer, they kept referring to her. Right. Like, oh, she's so ugly. What is that? Got it. Got it. What is she? Bomb her. Nuke her. Right.

17:10And so you, not unwisely, were like, because like everyone in the marketing was just like, well, there's something they're not telling us. There's something they're not telling us. Yeah. And a lot of people thought it was a musical or whatever. Right. But that's why, oh, they're showing, okay. That's why the trailer was so broad and weird. What if there's suddenly a spike in the Digger box office this weekend because one month later, blank check spoiled the movie and people were like, oh, that's the premise? What if? What if? Digger has already been reclaimed. Sure. I'm plugged into the discourse enough to notice that within a week, everyone was like, I think

17:41Digger's a masterpiece. Sorry. Yeah. Critics were wrong about it. It happens that fast now. And then there'll be backlash to the backlash and backlash to the backlash, you know, but like, yeah, I'm already just sort of saying all the, for some reason, all the kids on Letterboxd are like, Digger good. Is Digger winning this picture? Digger hive. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Guest Eva Anderson arrives

17:57Um, this is a miniseries on the films of Martin Scorsese. Mm-hmm. It is called Podcast Fellas because that's what we are. And today we are talking about Cape Fear with one of our favorite people. Return to the show. The greatest guest in podcasting, Eva Anderson. Hey, guys. And also a great writer. This is true. And a great person. Margo's got money troubles. Well, then fucking give her some money. Yeah. What the fuck is the matter with you? Why are you yelling at me about it? She's been yelling this from the rooftops. Sign up for her OnlyFans and give her money that way.

18:28It's an easy, direct system. Pay her for nudes. Yes. OnlyFans isn't taking that large of a cut. You will help her money problems. Yeah, she could buy diapers. Right. She's got to buy the diapers. They're expensive. They're expensive. That reminds me, you need to buy diapers.

18:45Um, guys, thank you so much for having me. I can't wait to talk about Cape Fear, the movie. Cape Fear. We are here. You're a bit of a Cape Fear-ologist. I went very hard on Cape Fear this year. Yeah. And did all the steps of Cape Fear. Like, not knowing that you would be then invited on this show. No. It was somewhat happy. I was still like, I don't know. We threw you a flyer. Are you a Cape Fear fan? Like, yeah. And you were like, I'm in deep. Yeah. Because I watched the show. Yes. So there was the show on Apple TV that was, uh, I mean, Javier Bardem. It's Nick Antosca did it. Mm-hmm. Um, and it was Javier Bardem and Amy Adams and Patrick Wilson.

19:18And Amy Adams is playing the Jack Bowden role, basically. Right? It's flipped? It's... Oh, boy. Okay. So, in the, in the original Executioners, Bowden was just like, I spotted this guy being bad in the alley, in the, in the military. And then Gregory Peck version, Greg Peck was like, I was a lawyer that spotted a guy in an alley. In the Nick Nolte version, he was like, I was his lawyer and I, I did some... I buried some evidence. I buried evidence. Right. In the show, Amy Adams was his lawyer and Patrick Wilson was the district attorney prosecuting

19:55him. And not only did Amy Adams bury evidence, but she also had an affair with Max Cady that she's not sure if she had sex with him or not because she was an alcoholic at the time, but she also had an affair with Patrick Wilson. And then they ended up happily ever after. It sounds convoluted. In the pilot of Kate Feard, their son, there's one son from a previous marriage, which is Lily Coleus, who's very good at the show. Yeah, great actor. And then the other child is... Joe Anders. Who's Sam Mendes and Kate Winslet's son. Yes. Oh, he's another of the Winslet spawn, along with Mia Threepulton.

20:29Max Cady gets out of prison through the Innocence Project. Okay. So it's like, Max Cady might be innocent because this other woman says that she committed the murder that he said he committed. Is this making... The Innocence Project look bad? Oh, they might be... Wokeness might be the villain of Cape Fear. Oh, my dear. Oh, no. Wokeness. But then their son disappears, comes back, high as a kite, his toe's missing. Oh, boy. And so they're like, where's his toe?

21:00And they can't find his toe. And in the end of the pilot of the Cape Fear show, they're in their backyard and Max Cady's like, I'm here too. And then the son throws up and guess what he throws up? The toe? The toe. He had eaten the toe?

21:15The other thing I heard... I don't like that. ...is that Juliette Lewis plays Max Cady's... Half-sister. ...who's obsessed with him and is stalking him? Yes. She is stalking him, wearing a little mask so that you don't see for a while that it's her. Uh-huh. Ron Perlman is Max Cady's father who would keep him in a dog cage and torture him. This is what I needed. There's a lot of things going on. I needed an explanation of how Max Cady got bad. One of the craziest things that happens in the finale is that after this big murder on a houseboat... The houseboat is actually where Max Cady's family lives. Our characters don't really get to the...

21:47That's not their houseboat. Okay. But he kills everyone on the houseboat and then he just says, I don't remember if to anyone, he goes, I gotta go. I've got a restaurant to open. And I guess in the background, he's been also opening a restaurant. Okay. He's like, he's been tasting food. Imagine if De Niro's character, you know, Nolte's like, he's trying to kill me. Everyone's like, this restaurant's so good though. They would occasionally cut to him like, you know, frying eggs. Also because it's like eight hours so many times, Patrick Wilson is like, well, Max Cady's

22:22not that bad. I guess I'll get drunk with him at this bar and tell him some secrets. And then, and then it's like, but he made your son eat his own toe. And it's like, I shouldn't have ever told about this affair I'm having. It sounds somewhat ill-conceived to me. Actually, like, you know, there's like the, I would say like Lily Coleus, who's in Good One with James LaGrosse is like... Great actor. Fucking incredible in it. Like great performance. But there's just like too many characters. Everyone's got multiple levels of exposure. Right. Max Cady's obviously bad the whole time, but people just keep going like, I guess I

22:55can trust you. And then there's another daughter. He has another daughter. I'm stressed out. More kids. Is Marty involved with it? Him and Spielberg both have a title at the top. Yeah. They did like an Apple event. Yes, they did like Q&A's. Where they like chatted with her. But I think it was more just them chatting about whatever they wanted to chat about. I don't know how hands-on they were, but they were pressing the flesh to promote the show. I mean, I think they may still own the right, like, because there was... I think so. We'll dig into the dossier, obviously, but it was a Spielberg project originally, and

23:28then it goes to Marty. Nick Antoska. Nick Antoska, yeah. He's the guy who did Channel Zero, right? I love Channel Zero. I was such a big fan of Channel Zero. That was really good. Candy was really good. I think he's usually... I usually really like his stuff. What is Candy? Candy was about... Oh, yeah. Jessica Biel. Yeah. She did the bad thing. She did the bad thing. But yeah, I feel like he's usually really good. But this... It was like... It was too stuffed with ideas, and then they... It's hard to stretch this out over the eight episodes.

23:59Candy was the other version of the same... Love and Death. Right. Yeah. The Elizabeth Olsen show. Yeah. And then I think Hitmaker was on Candy, right? Hitmaker is indeed on Candy. Yeah. Did he do a bad thing? Probably. Who's Hitmaker? Timothy Simons. Oh, yeah. He's really good in it. Yeah. Yeah. He makes shows into hits. Pablo Schreiber is also really good in Candy. Everyone's very good in Candy.

Discovering the film through The Simpsons

24:19When did you see Cape Fear for the first time? Did you see this version first? The 1991 film, do you mean? Yeah. I think like 10 years ago, something like that. My parents loved it, though. My dad loved Cape Fear. So it was like on in my house a lot, but I was never like sitting down and watching Cape Fear until I was an adult. This is 100% a movie I only discovered because of I Love the 90s. Oh, really? Yes. I distinctly remember there being a Cape Fear segment. Okay. Sure. I never watched I Love the 90s, so you'll have to. I was big into it. Originally a UK format.

24:49I know. I mean, like it was just one of those VHS, like the talking head things, right? Yeah. VH1. VH1. Yes. You understood me. I would record them on VHS and rewatch them. Of course you would. What about the Sideshow Bob, though? You knew every... That is how I discovered Cape Fear. But this is the thing. I thought like this is an incredible original premise for an episode of The Simpsons. Uh-huh. And then whatever, probably five years later, I'm watching I Love the 90s. I mean, I'm sure I thought that the first few times I saw that Simpsons episode.

25:20But yeah, I think then I figured it out. Right. But okay. I Love the 90s. Who's riffing on it, Griff? Everybody. Probably the Bare Naked Ladies, Hal Sparks, Michael Ian Black. Okay. I have no sense of who was on it. The Bare Naked Ladies? Melissa Rausch? Would they like talk really fast? Or did they like, Cape Fear is the funniest movie? Like, would they do it like that? Sure. Or something like that. Okay, great. Aw, man. They would just sometimes have a collection of guys from a band together. Just being like, that was crazy. But I remember being like, wait, like, Martin Scorsese made a kind of trashy thriller.

25:53Mm-hmm. Because it would, the fucking, I Love the 90s segments would inevitably kind of spoil everything. Yeah. So it even included him, like, in the full burn makeup, speaking in tongues in the river at the end. Right. But, you know, he's pretty subtle in that scene, I would say. That's, I was like, this is a Scorsese movie? Right, right, right, right. And then I watched it, rented it, and immediately realized it was the Simpsons episode. Yeah, sure. And it came full circle. I think, yeah, it's just so tied up with the Simpsons. Because the Simpsons episode just has the things like Sideshow Bob under the car.

26:25Yeah. Where you're like, well, that's an, they added that because that's funny. And then you watch the movie, you're like, oh, no, that's from the movie, too. Okay. I guess they added the rake stepping. Yes. The greatest stroke of all time. Yeah, yeah. It's pretty good. Is that the best episode? I think it's a good argument for it's a great episode. It's not a very big Homer episode. Yeah. Like, it's more of a Bart episode, I guess. And so that is one reason I would not call it my favorite episode, but it's a perfect episode of television. There is no fault.

26:57HMS Pinafore. I mean, that's why I love it. That's why you love it. It is. I love that shit. And I love Kelsey Grammer. And I think he's so funny as Sideshow Bob. Producer Ben, had you seen this before? Yeah. The first time I saw it was on cable television. Okay. And it was heavily edited. Interesting. Oh, man. And I don't even think I had seen it the beginning. Yeah. Really. I only got into it maybe in the middle and stayed with it to the end. It's really gripping, but man, is it a tough hang.

27:29It's very nasty. I love this movie. I think it is such a fascinating, like, weird cartoonish Grand Gagnol opus. Yeah. The scene with the daughter, I had never, that I had never seen before. Can you suck a thumb on cable? I guess not. That was rough. That was really, that really made me uncomfortable. This feels like a movie that would be borderline incoherent on a TV edit. That's my favorite scene in the whole movie, though. It's astonishing. Yes. That's like, that's like, Juliette Lewis's entire career is spun out of that scene, right?

28:02Fucking Oscar nomination. Yeah. Like, basically because of that scene. Yeah. Right. But I think it, it kind of messed with her career in a way in terms of that became like the thing she couldn't shake. you're the teenager from Cape Fear a little bit, right? Yes. And I wonder if it messed, if, how protected she was on set for that scene, too. It's always the question. Like, in that time. It's like, how? I mean, she was an adult. Like, I don't, so I. Was she, how was she 18? I think she was like 20. Okay. Like, I can look it up. She really comes across as a child. She does. It's a really realistic.

28:33I can look it up. She might have been like 18. I mean, it might have been, you know. But it's like, you're even watching it. You're just like, is this, am I allowed to watch this? It's, yeah, yeah. I'm with you, Ben. Yeah. But it's very disturbing. But it's also like, that's why it's so disarming, too. It's like. Nope. She was 17. 17. Wow. And it's long. It goes on and on and on. Yeah. It's, it's. And of course, MTV nominated for Best Kiss. That's the thing. Are you serious? More than anything, it's the kind of thing that immediately became a proto meme. We live in, we lived in a society. It was the first year of Best Kiss at the MTV Movie Awards, I will say.

29:06Didn't win. What won? Who are the other nominees? I'll give you the other nominees first. Please. Angelica Houston and Raul Julia in The Addams Family. Sure. They were very sexy. I'm just, my question is just which kiss? Right. That's all they're doing. Kissing up the arm. But maybe it's like at the end of the big dance where all the like champagne corks go off. I think that's in the first out of the family. Yes. Yes, it is. Annette Bening and Warren Beatty in Bugsy. Okay. What kiss? We just wanted to respect the real life romance. Yeah. Great.

29:37Juliette Lewis and Robert De Nirok. Sure. Priscilla Presley and Leslie Nielsen in The Naked Gone Two and a Half, A Smell of Fear. Should have won. I'm sure it was great. Yeah. Yeah. The winner was Anna Klumsky and Macaulay Culkin in My Girl. I think this is a demented five. Yes, it is. Like we cannot be like, I know this is all just made up. Yes. You know, like and it's not like there are jurors or whatever. Yeah. Like imagine trying to be like, well, which was the better kiss? Those cute like 12 year olds in that kid movie or Juliette Lewis and Robert De Niro in Cape Fear.

30:10These are five entirely different types of kissing. Like what are we doing? Which one did I check off to? That's the problem because I feel like most years the winner was just what's the hottest kiss? Yeah. It's like Batman kissing Chase Meridian or whatever. Right. And this one has like cute kisses, sexy kisses, funny kisses and scary kisses. Like did they eventually, let's see, when did they discontinue this category? Uh, 2023. Like it lasted for so long. What was the final one that won? Yeah. Fucking, it's a TV show.

30:41Like they, you know, the MTV. Oh, I hated when they did that. Madison Bailey and Rudy Pankow in Outer Banks. As if I know what any of those words are.

30:50Uh, first time hearing of this. Uh, the year before Poopies won for kissing a snake in Jackass Forever. That's fun. That's fun. Uh, let me see if there's some other good, uh, kisses here. I mean, there's the famous Ryan Gosling, Rachel McAdams where they replicate the kiss on stage and they're both wearing the Darfur shirts. Oh, I remember. Did Madonna kiss Britney when they were presenting the award for kiss? No, it was when they were doing a show. Like they were doing a number. And that was the VMAs, not the movie awards.

31:22Right? Yes. Yes, I think so. I remember that kiss. They should have nominated it for best kiss the next year. Because it was a TV show. This is so weird. Like Species won one year. Like isn't that a kiss that probably precedes like an impaling or whatever? Yeah. I don't think it was like romantic. But that's, that's what I'm saying. Like a lot of times this category just doubled as like hot as shit. Well, it's just so, like Gwyneth Paltrow and Joseph finds one for Shakespeare in Love. Great. How lovely. They have a lovely kiss in that lovely kiss movie. Sure. The next year is Sarah Michelle Gellar and Selma Blair in Cruel Intentions.

31:54Okay. They love doing that. And the girls were kissing. Okay. And then, but then it's like Julia Stiles, Sean Patrick Thomas, and Save the Last Dance. Back to romance. And then it's Jason Biggs and Sean William Scott in American Pie 2. So pure comedy kiss. Sure. Sure. Don't even remember why they kiss, but sure. There's a deal where the girls will kiss if they kiss first. There you go. There you go. You remember. Tobey Maguire and Kirsten Dunst in Spider-Man. Upside down kiss. A famous kiss. It's almost like retire the category after that. It should be the last one. They should have because the next one was Owen Wilson, Carmen Electra, and Amy Smart and

32:25Starsky and Hutch. What's that? Just like a threesome scene? Yeah. They have a Coke foursome, but I think the idea is that they're going on a double date, but then Starsky or Hutch ends up sleeping with both of them and Ben Stiller doesn't sleep with any. Sounds vaguely funny. And then notebook. And then like, you know, oh, Brokeback Mountain won best kiss. Oh, very good. Oh, yeah. We've come a long way. And then Will Ferrell and Sacha Baron Cohen in Talladega Nights. They couldn't settle on like serious and silly.

32:56It's just so funny. Like every year, I'm sure they're sitting down like, okay, well, you know, Twilight should win best movie. And they're like, what the fuck do we do about best kiss this year? I feel like, I don't even think about just to bring it back. Like him kissing her in that scene. I only think about the thumb. The thumb is the, I feel like if you looked up Cape Fear, Juliette Lewis, you would see a thumb in her mouth. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

33:26Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This film is called Cape Fear. So you think you, you probably saw the original, the J. Lee Thompson film later, right?

Comparing the original and remake

33:46Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I did too. I watched it years later. Right. I just watched it for the first time in prep for this. Did you like it? I did. Yes. It's a very good fucking 60s Hollywood thriller. It's very good. Yeah. Yeah. I was watching, there's like a vintage making of thing on the Blu-ray and Scorsese was talking about how many times he turned down this movie. Right. Wow. That he didn't want to do it, but De Niro had been attached to it for years. So he kept re-offering it to Marty. And his thing was just like, that movie's perfect. Right. I like that movie. It is what it is. Why would I remake that movie?

34:16Right. And then he eventually was like, that movie's more of a noir. If I could sort of laterally move genres and make more of a modern thriller with it, but also go into more horrific areas. Make it Catholic. Put my Catholic guilt in there. Well, his big thing was, can the family be fucked up? Yeah. Yeah. Right. Can they be going through their own struggles? And then the other thing is just the original movie has to dance around a lot of stuff just because of the Moors of the time. Yes. So this movie's allowed to be a lot more horrific.

34:47Right. But yeah. Like, I feel like you always struggle with this movie. I don't like this movie. I mean, like, I think it's very fun and silly and like, I get the style of it, but it is not a movie I go back to. I find it too nasty. It's very nasty. Yeah. Like, um, the way that in the 60s movie, like I said, like the woman just like, I gotta get out of town after she meets Max Cady. And then the like, Ileana Douglas just gets her cheek bit off on camera. She does part of one of the nastiest, one of the nastiest parts. Yeah. But then like such an incredible scene with her in the hospital bed afterwards that makes

35:21you sit with it. She's excellent in the film. Yes. She's so good in that scene in the bar with him too. The way she's laughing at him. I was like, this is the most identifiable female scene. Like, it's like every woman has had this interaction with a guy at a bar where you're like, ha ha, you dumb fuck. And then he's, yeah, it's, uh, it was, it gave me, I got chills from that. It was really, she's so good. It's the ex. Yeah. I do not think this movie is like, you know, whatever, like too glib or whatever.

35:53I'm not saying that, but I, I personally do not come back to Cape Fear much. Can I ask you, I know you, you're going to do a whole episode about it, but what are your feelings on Shutter Island? Great question. I watch it all the time. It brings me great comfort. It's my most watched Scorsese movie. It's, I, I mean, of course, Eva, you love horror. You love the haunted house. But it's like a sewing movie. I like to just put it on while I'm sewing. Can we also, can we put. Especially the first hour of it. Yeah. Can we put spoiler horns around this for a second? Yeah. Spoilers.

36:23Spoilers. Spoilers. Because we're not having you on that episode. Yeah. How do you rate Shutter Island as an immersive? Oh, as an ARG? Yes. You are such a connoisseur. It's so, it's, it's as bad as the game. There's no way to know he would do all those things. But, um. We talk about it on that episode. We've recorded it. Like, there's a lot of branching, decision-making moments there where you're like, how did you plan for this? How'd you know he's going to go across the rocks and find Patricia Clarkson? Like. Well, that's in his head. But, uh, but, uh, but, um, you know, it's more just like, we'll all do the improv, like

36:58us, the guards, the doctors. And it's like, but we'll have him talk to some mental patients soon. And I'm like, the mental patients? The mental patients are going to wink at him? How do you know? Like, well, yeah. But, but like, the thing I feel about that movie is that, and a little bit of an issue I have with this one is like, why Joe Don Baker? You could have cast anybody. See, I love him in this. What's your problem with Joe Don Baker? Well, my big problem is that he's Mitchell from Mystery Science Theater 3000. And I can never unsee that from the episode where Joel leaves and Mike takes over.

37:29But also, I just feel like he's kind of goofy. And I feel like, but, but with Shutter Island, if you're sewing, anytime you look up, there's someone awesome on, like the best actor, the best character actor. He's doing five minutes. Yeah. Just like John Carroll Lynch is here. And then you like look away. Ted Levine. Yeah. You're just like, ooh, it's one of my faves. So that's, that's my, that's my pitch. It's interesting that Joe Don Baker and Fred Thompson are in Cape Fear. Because they are both kind of the same kind of guy. Like Joe Don Baker's goofier, Fred Thompson's more authoritarian, but they're both like big Southern guys. Yes. Right.

38:00You know, who can play a sort of wide variety of like lawyers and cops and, you know, that kind of, you know. If you close your eyes, you might not be able to tell which one's on screen at that moment. Fred Thompson is. I love him. The best. He's like, I know. Politically. I know that Fred Thompson eventually became a mediocre Republican senator from Tennessee who I didn't agree with on anything. Yes. And Kellyanne Conway's best ex-boyfriend. If Fred Thompson's in a movie. Oh. My thumb is all the way up. Absolutely. Like, the movie better be called, like, Gun Patrol or whatever.

38:30And he's like, gentlemen, I'm sending you into the Gulf. And I'm like, you do that, Colonel. Bullet force. What did you think, like, about the stunt casting, too? Of Mitchum and Peck? The cameos? Or just like the scene with Balsam and Peck together. Lovely to see Balsam. I'll never. One of my favorites of all time. A little shake of Balsam. The greatest. But I was like, when you put them together, it's like, oh, man, two of the actors in this scene are so old. Yes. It is a little bit like, why is this judge not, like, retired?

39:03He's a fucking 80. He's like, he's barely getting it out. The sentence. I love Martin Balsam so much. I love him so much. He's so good in the original. An eternally old man, Martin Balsam. Cape Fear.

Development and casting choices

39:17I'll open the dossier, was made in 1991. But for some reason, JJ wants us to know that Martin Scorsese first met Akira Kurosawa at the 1980 New York Film Festival because the director, Kurosawa, was presenting Kagimusha and Scorsese asked him to join a petition for Eastman Kodak to create more durable color film stock for the preservation purposes. And that gets him a role in Dream. It's a great Kurosawa movie. Is it his final movie? I can't even look it up.

39:48Is it a color film? Yes, it is. I love that movie. No, yeah. He did actually do Rhapsody in August after. And then Matadayo. I've never seen that one. But, you know, it's an elegaic film. Have you seen Dreams? I've seen Dreams. That's so good. Yeah, rules.

40:05Scorsese plays Vincent van Gogh. Yes. Incredible casting. Yes. In Dreams. So anyway, he had a great time being in Dreams. I don't think this is that important, JJ. I'm sorry. I love you so much. JJ's trying to fill all the gaps in these dossiers. Right. I get that. Steven Spielberg wants Martin Scorsese to make Cape Fear. Does he have the rights? Is that why he's the... Is that why he's on the show? Okay, so here's the great story. Okay, so Spielberg had given Scorsese Schindler's List, the rights to that novel.

40:37He hired Steve Zalian. Scorsese had hired Steve Zalian to write it. They were working on the script, but he had reservations. This is 1990, according to Scorsese. He'd done Last Temptation of Christ. And he felt like he'd done a lot of sort of dialoguing about religion in that movie. And he was a little worried that, like, he wasn't the guy for the movie to tackle that subject matter. That Jewish people had been upset about the Diary of Anne Frank movie. Like, that that was a Gentile or whatever, you know, like a few years prior.

41:10Um, let's also acknowledge the important thing happening here, which is as part of the deal for Universal to distribute and finance Last Temptation of Christ. Yes. Scorsese owed them a movie. Quote, a more commercial movie. Sure. That they were willing to take on the risky one if they got an IOU from Marty. Okay. And Spielberg obviously is set up at Universal with Amblin at this period of time and they're friends. Of course. And he also at this time has opened the restaurant Dive with Jeffrey Katzenberg. Very important content.

41:40Submarine shaped. We definitely discussed this on an episode, did we not? Submarine sandwiches. I don't know if we ever have. They serve submarine sandwiches, not seafood. Inside a submarine. Yeah, inside a submarine. Do you know about this, Ben? We've talked about it. Okay, we have to only talk about it before. Because I definitely never would have known about this unless you told me about it. We definitely talked about it. It means a lot to me. Spielberg is on board to make remake Cape Fear. Yeah. And so Scorsese calls Spielberg and is like, I'm not sure I want to do this. Spielberg's like, that's great news because I've kind of always regretted giving it. A swap is made.

42:12Scorsese says, I wasn't being altruistic. It just made sense to me that he was the person who should really go through with it. I was worried I wouldn't be able to do justice to it. You know, we've talked about Schindler's List already. Spielberg's in a weird spot at this point, too, where he's sort of like, I tried making my serious movies and people rejected them. Maybe people want me to make popcorn stuff only. Right. So it felt like he was sort of avoiding Schindler's List and thinking something like Cape Fear was a way for him to make a more grown up movie. Yeah. That was also sort of popcorny and commercial. I would have hated the Spielberg. Would have been really bad.

42:43Spielberg, Cape Fear and Scorsese Schindler's List just both sound insane to me. Correct. Like, insane in the way where I'm like, I'd like to see it and then have it not be real. You know, I'd like to just see whatever that would have looked like in both cases and then be like, all right, now rewind to reality. Yeah. So, Scorsese had worked with Universal for Last Temptation of Christ. Christ. Christ. Christ. Jesus Christ. Put some respect on that name. Obviously, that film did not make money. So he's making an attempt at a box office situation, which is how he puts it, which I think is really

43:14funny. I'll try and do a box office situation for you.

43:19He's like, I wasn't even 50. I kind of wanted to make like a Hollywood movie, like a big entertainment film with action scenes. He's a little interested in that. So, all right, let's turn back to the screenplay. Cape Fear is a remake of the J. Lee Thompson 1962 film, Cape Fear, adaptation of John McDonald's novel, The Executioners. Wesley Strick, who is the writer of Arachnophobia, among other things. An Amblin film. An Amblin was approached by Amblin and was kind of like, eh, this movie doesn't do much for me. Okay.

43:50He says, it's kind of a failed Hitchcock. I didn't like the vigilante implications of the story. I didn't like that it comes down to like, sometimes you got to be a man with a gun and shoot a guy. You know what I mean? Like, it's sort of like, sometimes your hand's going to be forced. But then Spielberg gets on board and Strick's like, oh, I guess I should work with Steven Spielberg. Yeah. Like, so he does that. He said that his version that he wrote for Spielberg was much more built around giant set pieces. Unsurprisingly. I thought you were about to say, built around giants. Max Cady was huge.

44:20Yeah. So, you know, he looks at the book and he's like, the movie tries to make Peck a hero. The book doesn't so much. Like, it's not so much a heroic character. He's a coward in the book. Right. And it's more just about how like, violence sort of degrades everybody. Right. Even the righteous. But Gregory Peck is like, the ultimate moral authority in American cinema at that point in time. Totally. Yeah. John McDonald likes heroes who like, have sex and like their families. Have you read Travis McGee? I love to have sex and like my family. Travis, what now? Any Travis McGee books? That was like his series that they've tried to make movies of forever and ever.

44:52No, I have never watched, I had never read a Travis McGee. They're really fun. But like, Travis McGee's like, he lives on a houseboat. So, in the Florida Keys, he has lots of sex and he solves crimes. And he just like, he's a groovy dude. They have the naming convention that there's always a color. It's always a color. Like, yeah. In the title of each book. Yeah. He did 21 books all with a color in the title of every one. One of the earliest examples of a title theme, you know, along with, say, Sue Grafton's Alphabets, which I was obsessed with when I was a kid.

45:23Oh, yeah. A is for, yeah. Like, when I was a kid, I was just like, well, I know my alphabet. Is this book about the alphabet? My dad was like, no, it's about, like, a person solving crimes. And I'm like, okay, well, what is A for? Alibi. Okay. What's B for? What was it for? Okay, fine. I'll look it up. You guys know what I'm talking about? Does anyone else? Yes. I remember this. My mom read all of those books. But the John McDonald mystery books are very horny and fun. And the character in Executioner's is like, I love fucking my wife. She's so beautiful. It's just like, and we have a weird dog and they get really into, like, you really like

45:55the dog a lot. So when Katie poisons the dog, it's maybe the big violence set piece of the entire book. That's the ultimate injustice. Yeah, because the dog is described as, like, a weird dog. Like, they were like, why don't we end up with this weird dog? Her name's, like, Margaret or something. And they're always making fun of how fucking weird their dog is. This dog can play basketball. So then he poisons it and you're like. And there's nothing in the rule book says he can't. And all the kids watch the dog die of, there's, like, three kids and they're watching the dog die. It's just like, it's actually really, really effective. A is for alibi. B is for burglars.

46:26C is for corpse. D is for deadbeat. E is for evidence. It goes on like this. She never made it to Z. X was just called X. Which I kind of like that she wasn't like X is for someone got killed with a xylophone. Like, she didn't do the old. Executioner. No, X was just called X. And then she did Y is for yesterday. And then she died. She didn't make it to Z. She never got to Z? No. That is the ultimate. She fucked up. Indignity. It's like an Edwin Drood scenario. It was going to be Z is for zero, but she didn't get it. And no one wrote it in her step?

46:56She would not allow it. Wow. She was like, you will not pull some ghostwriter, I'm writing from beyond the grave shit with me. Whereas if I did, I would be like, ghostwrite the shit out of it. Finish this fucking shit. David Sims with someone else. You know what I mean? Like, do that forever. However, uh, okay. Um, so Strick, Strick, it seems like Strick really doesn't like the movie and it's basically I'm worried that I'd be writing like Death Wish. Yeah. Yeah. Which is a bit, I feel like a little hysterical of him. I think so. But like, I guess with Dash, with the original Death Wish, the idea is like, well, he was

47:27a normal guy and he was pushed into these circumstances, right? Um, but so, uh, he wanted to rethink Max Cady a little bit. He's like, in the movie, Mitchum is so convincing and natural and charming. But like, in the book, the character is just a cracker sadist is how he puts it. Just a cruel bastard. Uh, so he wants to make it more interesting by turning it into sort of like a religious quest for him, if that makes sense, in this movie. Right? Like, it's like he's more on a crusade.

47:58And like, he thinks Marty kind of gets that, if that makes sense. Like, he sees Cady's point of view, even if he doesn't like think he should be so mean. Yeah. And Marty, who's gone through multiple failed marriages and failed attempts at being a present father at this point in time. Right. Is just like, I can't do these big set pieces. Sure. You wrote that for Spielberg. What interests me is if the family isn't happy versus in the original film where they're very much just kind of like a perfect American family who are disrupted by this thing.

48:28Yeah. The sin of the father is now being visited on the family. It's that. And it's also like Nick Nolte, uh, what's his name? Sam Bowden. You know, he tried to pass judgment. Right? Like, and it's like, that wasn't your role, sir. You know what I mean? Like, he tried to render judgment and he was, you know, that's, he put a man in prison wrongly or rightly for 15 years because of it. No, I like that he was right. Yeah. Yeah. But he was wrong in the eyes of the law. Uh, yeah. Scorsese says in the Spielberg version of the script, like, yeah, the family's like happy and singing around the piano. And he's like, I think Steve can do that.

48:59Well, cause he believes in it, but not me, not something I'm aware of. Uh, and the scene in the theater between De Niro and Juliette Lewis, which I play a seduction that was written scary. Uh, and, uh, I, you know, changed that a little bit and, uh, he's like, you know, it would have been, there would have been like an awesome car chase or whatever. And it's, Steve would have crushed it. I would have been bored trying to do it. Uh, it's, uh, you know, good for him knowing what he wants. Uh, Marty basically like takes it, they have a big meeting where Marty takes him page by

49:30page and it's like too cute, too cute. Like we're getting all of this out. Um, and, uh, yeah, the other reason he wants to make it is he kind of just wants to prove a point. Like I can make a movie that is a big studio thriller. And also De Niro really wanted to play Max Cady. I guess that makes it a lot easier. Yes. Right. Uh, he also says, I just want to challenge myself. I've made so many films about Italians. That's funny. He said, uh, that they kept doing table reads of the script before Scorsese signed on.

50:00This was in the making of thing. And the version that finally got Scorsese to sign on, Kevin Kline was playing Bowden and Phoebe Cates was playing the Jessica Lange part. I like, I don't hate it. No, it's fascinating. Yeah. Fascinating to consider. I mean, Nolte is so, we'll talk about it, but like he's such a scene casting because he's so big and De Niro is so small. Yes. Yeah. But that works for me in the movie. Totally. Like I like the reversal. Yes. And I think Nolte does a good job playing like a sort of a stuffed shirt. Like, you know, even though, yeah, like I, that works for me.

50:30He's a weasel too. I like him playing, I like Nolte playing a weasel. Low status Nolte is fascinating. Yeah. He can do it. He gets really scared. There's scenes where he's as scary as, especially with Julia. Lewis, where you're just like, he's, his weakness is very dangerous. It's just like, you could reverse the roles. Yeah. They would both be good in the other role too. Yeah. And it would be different and it would be interesting. They should have done that like True West. Kevin Kline just, culturally in terms of what Kevin Kline represented in the movies at that point in time, it would have been fascinating to watch him be terrorized.

51:04Oh man. But that, they did make this movie and it's called Consenting Adults. Oh fuck. I've never seen that. And Max Cady is Kevin Spacey. Well, your favorite actor. Yeah. Have you guys ever seen Consenting Adults? I've never seen Consenting Adults. No, that is right around the sets of Pakula movie. Yeah. I've never seen it. Kevin Kline. It's like, it's like Kevin, it's like Spacey has a really hot wife and he's like, let's swap wives for one night and not, let's do the bed trick. And when Spacey makes that proposition, it's really chill and not creepy at all. Oh yeah. It's great. He's like, yeah, you should come fuck my wife and I'll fuck your wife.

51:35And then Kevin Kline does it. And then in the morning, the Kevin Spacey wife is dead. Wait, that's a great pitch for a movie. Yeah, that's right now. And then it's like, it's like, you fucked my wife and killed her. And it's like, it's great. And then while Kevin Kline's in jail, Spacey gets in there with the other wife. Oh, okay. Oh, Spacey. Spacey. Someone's got to get this guy under control. He likes women too much. The poster for this fucking rules too. It's like scantily clad body in a sheet.

52:06And then it's thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife. Consenting adults in Alan Pakula film. I think Spacey's blonde in it too. I think he has like cool blonde hair. He did a lot of that. Before he settled in with John Doe and Kaiser Soze, like he was doing a lot of frosted tips and stuff. He was definitely looking for a look. He's a redhead in Outbreak. Yeah. That's a, that's another really chill performance. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I like that movie. Oh, I found a picture of Kevin Spacey in consenting adults. Am I right? Is he blonde? Yeah. He's blonde. When I had a big crush on him in high school, I watched every single movie he had ever done.

52:37Do you know this, Ben? That Kevin Spacey was Eva's ur-crush? Is that fair to say? Celebrity crush. Oh yeah. Big time. Wow. No, I didn't wish. In high school. No, but I mean, what, what was the ultimate Kevin Spacey role? The first activation. The sexiest he was. Maybe swimming with sharks is where. Yeah. I mean, that is right. Yeah. Him at his most kind of. That was the, it was the year that he had the three roles. Yeah. And then he won the Oscar. But I was just like, I'm going back. I'm watching everything. I'm going to watch him in See No Evil, Hear No Evil, where he's like the Boris and Natasha

53:08bad guy with Gene Wilder. Oh my God. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Because I love that movie. I mean, he was a great stock villain guy. Yes, he was incredible. From the 80s to the like mid 90s. Working Girl. He's so good in, uh, Working Girl is so good in Glenn Gary, Glenn Ross is like the. Fred Claus. He's amazing in Fred Claus. And, uh, uh, the Nine Lives with a cat where he goes, his soul goes into a cat. That is a truly borderline unwatchable movie. Oh yeah. It was his last thing before he got canceled. Yeah. Uh, we did, what do you mean? We paid tribute to it or a nine show. You remember?

53:39Yeah. I fucking nailed my Spacey audition. Yeah. You did a great job. Um, my audition to replace Kevin Spacey. Pay it forward where he's covered in burn scars. Kind of Max Katie-ish. Yeah. He actually has the Max Katie burns, but it's because his stepfather lit him on fire with gasoline. Yes. So the internet lore claims that Bill Murray was at one point considered, which is crazy for Max Katie, but De Niro had been attached for a long time. Spielberg was obsessed with Bill Murray in the eighties. There's that story that Spielberg personally funded an Oscar campaign for Bill Murray for

54:12What About Bob? Right. And that he kept trying to get him to do stuff. I think Bill Murray was supposed to be in Spielberg's version of Rain Man. Yeah. Sure. Wow. I mean, it makes sense because Spielberg is such an SNL obsessive and all that. Yeah. But his, in the eighties, he just kept trying to get stuff going with Bill Murray that never happened. Um, De Niro. Mm-hmm. This might shock you to hear. Kind of committed pretty hard to the role and started doing a lot of like working out to sort of get his body in the shape that you see it in this film. Yes. He looks pretty, uh, insane in this movie.

54:43Uh, he looks kind of insane. He's got, uh, a lot of tattoos. Mm-hmm. Did you notice that? A couple. The lightning bolts on his rib cage. That was De Niro's idea. He looks, gotta say it, he looks pretty good in this movie. He looks pretty hot. He's like, is the hair cut, but he's not like huge. He's not huge because he's got such a tiny frame. So like, you know, he's got this kind of sinewy. Is the hair good? No. I think the hair is good. The mullet? I mean, good in what way? For Max Katie? I don't know. Anyway, for Max Katie, sure, it's working great.

55:14Yeah. The hair is just crazy. Yes. It's interesting, like when Mitchum takes his shirt off in the, in the 60s movie, he just has like a perfect that era body. Yeah, he's just a barrel. He's just like someone who does like sit-ups and some push-ups. Yeah. Well, that's, that's the heightening of this film of, of the, like, this guy has just spent his entire prison sentence, like sharpening himself like a blade. Um, he did a lot of research from tapes. Mm-hmm. He studied a lot of accents. Uh, he interviewed killers in prison.

55:47Mm-hmm. Uh, yikes. You know, he tunneled in very deeply. Um, first choice for Sam Bowden, Robert Redford. Cool. Oh, sure. Don't hate it. Makes a lot of sense. Yep. He's the sort of ultimate kind of preppy guy who, you know, whatever. Mm-hmm. His life could be falling apart. Um, doesn't happen. Harrison Ford, of course. Mm-hmm. Uh, would have been too big, I think. Yeah. Like, too, too big an icon. I, I think, I think so. Ford's response is, I want to play Max Cady if I'm going to do that. I don't want to play that.

56:17That would have been fascinating. Exactly. But obviously, De Niro's not giving up the role. No. But that is interesting to consider, like, letting Ford try something like that. But that feels like what lies beneath is him finally making good on that interest. Right, right. Um, obviously, Scorsese had just worked with Nolte on Life Lessons in New York Stories. Uh, and he was like, yeah, well, and in that, he's, like, fat and bearded and drunk. And so he wasn't, like, really popping into my head for this role. Uh, but then I, uh, we showed, like, a move, we showed Goodfellas at Museum of Modern Art or something.

56:50And Nolte shows up, like, blazer and tie, his hair parted. Sexiest man alive. He's wearing some glasses. Parted his hair. Were they cunty little glasses? We can't be sure. They might have been. But on Nick Nolte's face, you know, most glasses are little. Uh-huh. Uh, and. This is true. He's got a fucking Easter Island head. Yeah. He really does. And so Marty nudges De Niro. Yeah. And is like, there's our lawyer. He says, like, that was what it, I literally just had to see him in different clothes and be like, oh. Yeah. Uh, Nolte, um, likes the role.

57:22He's like, he's not a perfect man. He's very flawed. Uh, you know, it's hard for him to accept powerlessness. I mean, he says lots of interesting things. He's a very smart, very smart actor, Nick Nolte. I love Nick Nolte. Me too. Blank track all star. We have fun with him, but I love Nick Nolte. Oh, of course. He's the best. Yeah. No. Affliction, Nick Nolte. That's like one of the fucking best. What's the, um, the remake of Bob LaFlember that Neil Jordan did? Uh, it's not called The Good. It's Good Thief. Good Thief. Oh, yeah. That's one of those. I'm a good thief. It's really good in Breakfast of Champions, a real unappreciated Vonnegut movie.

57:56I've never seen that. That movie, I have not seen since I was a teenager. So I was obsessed with that book as a teenager. Yeah. And I watched the movie. I remember kind of liking it, even though it was despised. It's mostly just Nick Nolte's so fun in it. Nick Nolte's very, yeah. It's an Alan Rudolph movie. Have you seen Griff? I've never seen Breakfast of Champions. Yeah. Alan Rudolph series when, Griff? It would be a little tricky to do. How many movies is it? It's a lot. Yeah.

58:21It's like, I think it's like 20 movies. The man worked. Yeah. And like, what the fuck is the blank check? There isn't one. No. I mean, I guess it's Breakfast of Champions. He had like Bruce Willis in that. That is, yes. Right. Because it's not Secret Life of Dentists. Not a bad movie. A pretty good film. Pretty good movie. You know who's great in that? Dennis Leary. Dennis Leary's fucking hitting three-point shots. You know what we agree on. Oh, 100%. I love Dennis Leary, third build. Yes. Dennis Leary's third build. David is first in line. I just watched. That's my motto.

58:51I was on the Guys podcast and they showed me that clip from Demolition Man. Oh, yeah. Is that the movie where Dennis Leary just does his own stand-up as part of the like resistance underground? Dennis Leary's stand-up was so famous that they were like, we need to shoehorn this into a sci-fi thriller. Yes. Like Dennis Leary needs to just talk down the fucking camera lens. And be like, I just want to go to a diner and eat. I want cholesterol. I want high cholesterol. It's like, it's just, it's just doing a monologue about like, yeah, it's so funny to like the resistance fighters. He's the leader of the resistance. Chris Rock, Lethal Weapon 4 is the other great example of that.

59:21Detective Butters. Where there are like four scenes where he walks in and points at an object and is like, phones, phones are interesting. You know what I think? And he like takes out a mic and starts pacing back and forth. It's so funny. But it was the same thing where people were like, this is so powerful. I can't get enough of Chris Rock. Just put him in our movie right now. Like it was really bad. Give him a holster, but let him just do his act. It's so funny. Yeah.

1:00:03Cape Fear is the only time Scorsese works with Jessica Wayne, which is a little wild. Yeah. She's such a natural fit for him. And she is trying her hardest to make this role good. Yeah. She really, I mean, honestly, the problem is that Juliette Lewis is so good and so vital. Yes. And then, so Jessica Lange is just kind of sweeping in being like, what is going on? And it's like, ah, I hear Jessica Lange. She also looks fucking fantastic. She looks incredible. That haircut. Her vibe is amazing. Just chain smoking while doing graphic design on logos.

1:00:34Braless in a tank top. Yeah. Smoking. Yeah. I think she's never even heard of a bra in this movie. Oh my gosh. I think it's a very interesting performance of an underwritten role, but you wish that off of this, Scorsese would have been like, I got to find something better to do with you. He just doesn't do a lot of preppy, you know? Like, it's like, she wouldn't make sense as like ethnic New York or whatever, right? Yeah. Like, you know, maybe, but you know, obviously Jessica Lange is from 83 to 90 gets five Oscar notes. Like, she's just like a very consistently laureled kind of, do you want to tell me the five?

1:01:08When does her second win happen? 95. Okay. And that movie was on a shelf for like five years, right? That's her sixth nom and her second one. So the first year is the double nom, correct? Which is Frances for lead actress and then she wins Tootsie for supporting. Correct. Wow. And then her other nominations. I mean, they're forgotten movies. Because this is like, she's the classic example of like best actress nominees or winners with no other nominations for that film. Yeah. Yeah. What are the other ones? The films are Richard Pierce's Country.

1:01:40Okay. Which is about being on a farm. Sam Shepard's in it. I bet she's like, I'm on a farm. Sorry. I love Jessica Lange. Then Carol Rice's Sweet Dreams, which is the Patsy Cline movie. Okay. Which I've never seen. And then the Costa Gavris movie, Music Box, which is like a legal thriller where she's like a Hungarian immigrant. Someone was telling me that Music Box was really good. Maybe Rob Scheer. I bet you it's good. Did either of you guys see her in Long Beach Journey into Night? No. No. Oh, with Michael Shannon? She was fucking insane.

1:02:10It was fucking insane. My butt hurts at the thought of going to some Broadway theater for a four-hour-ass play. No, I'm sure she was amazing. She was just, it was insane. No one was matching her, even like Gabriel Byrne and everybody. It was crazy. I saw her do Glass Magerie. And she was fucking incredible. Yeah. Yeah. She's the best. Obviously, she has 17 Golden Globes, you know, because she would also do so many TV movies and stuff like that. The Ryan Murphy universe. Yeah. Well, that's the real problem.

1:02:41It's like the Lang Paulson situation where it's just like he just has them. Yeah. And like, I get the consistency of the work or whatever, but it's like, can you just let him do other stuff for once in a while? Let's admit, the guy was at least savvy about the strategy of Hollywood stops finding good roles for good actresses. For like a diva, essentially. Right. Even Oscar winning actresses over the age of 40, 50, 60, 70. Yeah. And was just like, I will just supply them with a fire hose of work that never ends. Where they go, ah! Yeah.

1:03:12Like, I just feel like they're like a Now for American Horror Story season 14. They're like, Sarah Paulson's playing like a creepy nurse. And I'm like, surely she's done that six times at this point. Like, she's always playing a creepy nurse. I mean, right. She's got, there's the Long Day's Journey into Night movie, which is finally coming out. I believe it came out. Did it just come out? Possibly. But it was a big thing that it was like on a shelf for many, many years. It filmed in 2022. Is she in it? It just came out in September. Yeah. I totally missed it. It's her and Ed Harris. But she's made three movies in the last 10 years.

1:03:45That's crazy. My brother, the great Joey Sims, texted me. Yeah. Yeah. September 24th. No showtimes for Long Day's Journey in New York. Not even the quad. I'm laughing. And I said, not a real movie, I feel. And he says, I bet they never finished it. It's just a Zoom call at the end. It literally didn't open in New York City. Who are the other two? Who are the brothers? Ben Foster, probably playing it very calm. Yeah. And Colin Morgan, who I'm not familiar with as an Irish actor. That's the other, that's like the dying brother.

1:04:15Okay. That was like John Gallagher Jr. when I saw it. Ed Harris is, yeah. You know who also launched their stage career in that play was Kevin Spacey. He's the Eugene O'Neill interpreter. Like that was part of his. Yeah. The movie is two hours long too, which like that means they made some heavy edits. Do you think Lindsay Huber re-adapted the play? Oh. I don't think he should be doing that. Do you know that Eve and I are in a group text, one of many group texts I'm on that's called The Adults in the Room with a little graphic of Kevin Spacey from the Let Me Be

1:04:48Frank video? When he got interviewed by Tucker Carlson. Yes. That was that from that year. Is it just updates on whatever Spaceman's doing right now? It started that. Now it's just become... Or it's like he's in the Hotel Aviv doing little kicks on stage or whatever? We do send a lot of Brett Gelman photos, right? We do. It's become bad things happening in show business. Sure. But it started as like Christmas Eve waiting for the new Spacey video. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And then he like didn't... He's kind of skipped a couple years, right? He skipped a couple years. He's not doing... He just did Club Random, which I've listened to in its entirety twice. Yes. It's probably the best film of 2026. You know, mental health.

1:05:19Like, just Google, like, if you're in trouble, Eva, you need help. You need to watch it. You need to enter the club. You need to watch him just slide into his Jack Lemmon impersonation. It's so... Nothing in my life suggests that there's a pocket, like, of time open for me to watch a Club Random. You know what I mean? Like, I just don't know where there's an hour for that. Yeah. I feel that right now. Richard Dreyfuss, if you're going to do one, you've got to do Dreyfuss sliding down. That's your favorite one? Yeah. He slides down the chair. Wait. Are these guys smoking weed? Yeah. They were drinking and smoking weed.

1:05:50Are they really? Spacey's not smoking weed, I feel like. I think he's drinking. No, he's drinking whiskey. Yeah. Okay. Right. But Marr's always doing both. And if the episode goes, like, two hours, then he gets really weepy about how mean people are to him. Oh, interesting. He doesn't strike me as a guy with thin skin at all. Bill Marks. And he just starts saying the same shit as always. Like, everyone's so mad at me for meeting. College students. That sounds so random. Because I had dinner with Trump. What the fuck did you have dinner with Trump, you worthless maggot? You should watch Club Random.

1:06:22You know who would be good on Club Random is Max Cady. He'd be great. This guy, he railroaded me. Do you think Plain Eastwood watched Cape Fear and was like, I think he got railroaded. Yeah. Yeah. Bill Maher would argue that Me Too went too far with Max Cady. Yeah. You used to be able to just stick your finger or your thumb in a woman's mouth and it wasn't such a big deal. 17-year-old, it's fine. That was America. Jessica Lange says, I will just to wrap this up. The role wasn't much more than the wife. Yes. I don't think they really planned on addressing the character until I joined.

1:06:55And I'm such an admirer of Marty and I met with him and realized he was wide open to doing something at least. You know, they're all doing this sort of like, Jessica brought a lot to the role. And like, of course she does. But it's certainly the least interesting in the lead roles, I would say. And of course, Mitchum, Balsam, Peck all come about. This is Gregory Peck's final film role. Wow. Yeah. Wow. He lives for like another 10 years. That hair is dyed. Yes. What?

1:07:24Like Mitchum is just white, silver haired. Mitchum had a whole kind of old guy era. Yeah. Like, you know, his face really suited being an old guy. I mean, my favorite, oh, there's so much good Mitchum. Mitchum is such, I mean, obviously fucking, you know, Night of the Hunter is like the best shit in the world. My, he was also a, my, my, my grandfather was a fifties race car driver and he would race Mitchum. Mitchum was also a, would race like James Dean era. That sounds like the kind of shit you do.

1:07:55Right. He's like James Dean and him were like at all the road races. My favorite Mitchum is Friends of Eddie Coyle. Have you ever seen the Peter Yates movie, uh, where, which is just, you know, per, you know, you need a guy who looks like he'd smoked 4 billion cigarettes that day. Whatever. Uh, I just wanted to look at Peck's, uh, yeah. Cause he's in, Peck is in, um, other people's money the same year. Okay. The DeVito comedy, which is fairly bad directed by Norman Drew. Never seen it. Yeah. It's not very good, but he's like the nice local factory owner that Danny DeVito is showing

1:08:28up and being like, nice money. What if it was mine? Or, you know, whatever that movie is about. I just remember the trailer for that had DeVito going, other people's money, like in the trailer. I, you know, it was just them being like, can we do ruthless people, but he's even less likeable. I feel like it's one of three different DeVito movies where the poster is him smoking a cigar. Correct. Correct. Um, but yeah, this is Peck's final film role. Scorsese said, I wanted to get as many people as possible with the original. We eventually just kind of ran out of characters, which is true. Like there's only like, you know, so many places for these people to go.

1:09:01I guess, you know, uh, Juliette Lewis had been declared legally an adult at the age of 14. Oh, she like emancipated herself. Yes. She was 18 when the movie came out. It was dating Brad Pitt. Funny if that happened, if that happened and it just happened to you randomly, like you just get legally declared an adult. Oh, just, just in case. Or just like, so he's like, this girl's an adult. Like lightning strikes. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Um, that's weird. She's dating Brad Pitt. Yep. Really weird. Uh, I mean, they're in what movie are they in together?

1:09:32California. California. Terrible movie. Yeah. This is Lynch, uh, Scorsese's only collaboration with Freddie Francis, who obviously I've mentioned, you know, David Lynch, uh, he works with him on Elfman and Straight Story, but he loves him because he made hammer horror movies, understands gothic atmosphere, beautiful looking film. Uh, he would just say to him things like, this needs to look like hell. And Freddie Francis would be like, got it. You know, I know what to do. There's a special feature on the Blu-ray that's erroneously called matte paintings. Cause they're not paintings. They're like composite shots with movements, but so many of the clouds and in any of the like vistas of this movie are all special effects.

1:10:05Yeah. Um, and just like the colors cranked all the way up and obviously the firework sequence, uh, just sort of like nightmare Fantasia shit that I love. Yeah. It's interesting because Freddie's like, I'm a black and white guy. I'm not even a color guy. Like, but you know, I still photograph in black and white, but I think of things in terms of light and shade rather than color. And it just sort of works out, uh, which is interesting. He lights it like a black and white film, especially like the interiors in the house and the conversations. Yeah. I, it's an unbelievable movie in terms of craft, my opinion, just like, it's kind of that

1:10:37classic thing where it's, I mean, like, again, I do enjoy the movie, but it's a little bit of like a speedboat in a bathtub situation where you're just like Martin Scorsese. He's doing like, he's lowering himself to this kind of nineties erotic thriller. Essentially. You read the time. Some of the response was that where it's just like, is he really just going to become a guy for hire using his craft? And now that we know that's not what happens to Marty, like it's way less baggage on this movie. You're just like, this is just fun. Like I get it. This is crazy and wacky. And you know, I get that. Uh, his first CinemaScope movie as well.

1:11:08Wild. It had gone kind of out of fashion. So like they said, the equipment was kind of old, but, uh, yeah, he wanted, you know, it to feel like a big action movie. So he wanted, you know, scale. They built a big old sound. Uh, they had a tank. Yeah. In Florida. Cool. That they then turned into a soundstage. They had something called the Penetate, uh, which could revolve the camera, but they also used it as like a mount on the boat to give you a feeling of rocking back and forth. That's cool. Yeah. I love that.

1:11:39Uh, for those sorts of shots. The sixties version, I feel like doesn't use the boat to its fullest potential. And this movie is like boat central. Right. Thelma Schoemaker says the way that he moves the camera in this one is like Marty grabbing him by the back of the neck and going, look at this. Look at that. And she's like, and he can get away with it in this one because it's a thriller. Uh, they fell behind schedule a little bit, you know, uh, the shots were a little complicated. A lot of camera moves, you know, Marty's like, uh, exposition, my strengths elsewhere.

1:12:11You know, I like to express my feelings in, in camera and all that. Like, like he just, he, he always says this about himself. He's like, I'm not a plot guy. You know, it's just not what I care about. And this is sort of a plotty movie, but not one of his plotty films. Fundamentally though. It is. Well, yeah, I guess so. But you know, it's like, it's a pretty simple problem. It is. The whole way through. But it ratchets in a very linear way. Nurse ratchet. Hey. Uh, score by Bernard Herrmann. Mm-hmm. When I was a kid, I thought it was just the score from the first movie. Yeah. Because it's so classic. Yes. You know what I mean?

1:12:41Like, I thought it was like, oh, how clever of Marty to just like. Reuse it. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Great score. Mm-hmm. He also, you know, obviously he'd worked with him on Taxi Driver. He loves Psycho, but he's also, I love Vertigo. I love Marnie. I like, uh, the ghost of Mrs. Muir. Mm-hmm. Muir. Muir. Mm-hmm. So that's all I have to say about Cape Fear. Talk about Cape Fear. Max Cady. Max Cady. A psychopathic rapist. Yes. Yes. Canonical through all iterations. That's his main thing he loves to do. Yes.

1:13:12He's a physically abusive rapist. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. He's, he's a fucked up guy. Yes. Yeah. He's no good. Very bad. Don't do it. He was in prison for the rape and battery of a 16-year-old girl for 14 years. Yes. And his public defender was Nick Nolte. Mm-hmm. And Nick Nolte, abandoning the role of the public defender, I will say, just thought he was such a shithead that he just did a bad job defending him. Well, he buried the sexual history. There was a piece of evidence of the girl was promiscuous.

1:13:43Right. Which, quote unquote, you know, he points out, like, that's insane that it would even sway the jury. But he does not let it come to light, and Max Cady realizes this eventually. I don't want to give them that information because that's emblematic of societal rots. Yeah. And this guy doesn't deserve anything in his side. So Sam Nick Nolte now, he's private practice, lives in a nice house in North Carolina with his family. Wife Lee. Maybe has a bit of a wandering eye. Daughter Danny. Yeah. That's right. Max Cady, who didn't know how to read, starts off with ABC, you know, spot.

1:14:19C-spot run. Right. Exactly. Moves on to the North Carolina Pinot Cove. I just love it. He's basically just like, all of my education was designed to fuck you. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I learned all this stuff only to get revenge on you. He's got the scales of justice tattooed on his back. And he's also like, and it's not that I didn't do it. I did it. I did it. But you did a bad job. Yeah. Representing me. Yeah. Yes. I, yeah, I, I love that there's just no ambiguity to the awfulness of Max Cady, that it's just like, right.

1:14:50That like in near the end, he's like, basically when he's like redoing the trial, he's like, you did, you buried the part that would have gotten me off for raping that girl. So I'm going to rape this girl. Right. It's horrendous. It's like, the punishment you get is that I do the thing you, that we talked about. I prove you correct in a more personal way. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and it's basically just Sam finding, trying to find ways to deal with it as inconspicuously as possible without being embarrassed. That this guy has learned the law so well that he's figured out good ways to fuck with

1:15:22him. Yes. Yeah. Towing just up to the line. Right. Without anything being persecuted. And it's just sort of Sam being pushed like further and further towards like, well, I guess I should hire a PI. Well, I guess I should hire people to attack him. Yeah. Like I should, he just goes like down the chain of guys you don't want to call on the phone to try and help you out. Right. Right. But also like proving that Max Cady wants to prove that like the society is actually a disadvantaged people like him. Right. And that if you do have money and status, you can work outside the bounds of like politeness

1:15:56and even like morals and you don't get in trouble for it. Yes. So it's about him infecting Nolte with being like, I'm going to make you a bad person before I kill you. Right. Kill your family. Right. I'm going to show you how quickly anyone can get corrupted. Yeah. I'm going to corrupt. Yes. Corruption. Yes. But but also the fact that like Nolte's ego is on trial because he was technically derelict in his responsibilities. Yes. As a public defender.

1:16:28Right. He doesn't want to be exposed in that way. And the other thing is he has a history of infidelities and he's having this emotional workplace affair with Ileana Douglas. Now, she plays the gut physical like he they fucked or something. Well, she sort of says like we haven't done anything yet. Yes. Oh, there's like one line she has along. But she's like, but I love hanging out with you and, you know, getting in a good game of squash or whatever. They're like aggressively testing the boundaries. Right. And it feels like they're having an open conversation about the fact that they clearly want to fuck.

1:17:00Yeah. That he would do it if she wasn't married. He's trying to stay on the right line of just like, well, technically nothing's happened. Right. The implication is they are just having, right, like an inappropriate flirtation. But I guess he's like her boss. He's had affairs in the past, though. He was caught in this. He relocated the family to try to save the marriage. Yeah. I mean, it's pretty obvious near the end or in the middle of the movie when Jessica Lang is like, you and your infidelities. It's like if Max Cady goes to Jessica Lang is like he's flirting with Leanna Douglas. I don't think Jessica Lang is going to be like fainting at the thought.

1:17:32No. She'll be like, yeah, I know what he's like. Like, yes, this is what I suffer through already. So it's funny that Sam is so defensive about, you know, like, you know, trying to not let this get him in trouble. But the family's fragile. I mean, he accuses her of sort of holding him hostage in the marriage by acting like she was on the break, the brink of some sort of psychotic break or collapse. Or whatever it is. And then Juliette Lewis is getting to rebellious age. She smoked weed. She smoked weed.

1:18:02The devil's lettuce. The wackiest of the tobacco. He's a weasel, though. He is. He's a fucker. He has his poor character at the beginning. And then he just keeps like slipping and slipping and slipping. Yeah. But I like that. It's not like, well, which one of them is really bad? Oh, no, totally. No, I'm just saying there's a really lame version of this movie. Yeah. That gives Max Cady more plausible deniability and makes the Nolte character worse. Right. And I like that it's the right balance of the two. That is the show.

1:18:33Yeah. See, that's what I don't want. Is he like a shady lawyer? Like, is his like, is he kind of like a scummy or kind of defense lawyer? Well, he shouldn't know some of the people that he's able to access very easily. I think that's what's implied, too. It's like he runs in weird circles that are a little slimy. And I think he's very high class sort of reputation protection. That's my guess. He definitely also just shits on like being a public defender. He's like, well, that's why I didn't like being a public defender. Yeah. Which is, I would say, a nobler form of lawyer. Even if you have to defend someone who's probably not innocent, you're still doing a civic service.

1:19:08Yes. Because, um, I, yeah, he's, he's creeping on his paralegal. I say this with all due respect. What Southern lawyer in a movie is not like, is kind of a scumbag? Like, is there, I mean, I guess. Matthew McConaughey. Atticus Finch. Yes. Matthew McConaughey in A Time to Kill is a good man. Is a good man. That's a very, a movie with a real handle on how things work. Good sweaty man. Realistic. Joel Schumacher figured it out. Yeah. Yeah. No, I guess, of course, there's the occasional kind of like angelic Southern lawyer, but usually

1:19:38a Southern lawyer is like, well, my, my, my, what brings you to my office today? You know, that kind of thing. What's the deal with the Lincoln lawyer? Well, the Lincoln lawyer is not Southern. He's in like California. Oh, really? Yeah. He works out of his Lincoln. I know nothing about him. Yeah. The Lincoln lawyer is. A David E. Kelly show. Now a show. Now a show. But, uh, I will say. Like it's sixth season, I think. Yeah. Well, it's got a premise. He's in his fucking Lincoln. He can do any case. Uh, it's a very watchable movie. Really? Yeah. Lincoln lawyer is fun. It's Lincoln lawyer. I mean, you don't have to. No, I must.

1:20:09It's like a solid legal thriller. Sure. Except the premise is like he works from his Lincoln. I like that. That's fine. That's like Ed, the bowling alley lawyer. I like the lawyer in Erin Brockovich. Albert Finney. That's also California. Yeah. California. He's a good lawyer. I thought it was Texas. Erin Brockovich is so deserty. So I know what you mean. Like it's all her going out to those weird towns, but it's in the, it's in California. Central Valley. Yeah. Uh, I mean, he's the, he's my favorite movie character of all time. Yeah. Like he's the best. That is my favorite performance in a movie is Albert Finney and Erin Brockovich.

1:20:41I think he's up there. That's incredible. Great. Yeah. Did he win? No, no, no. He never won an Oscar. No, he didn't fucking win. Yeah. And he still del Toro won for some shit called traffic. I hope he hangs his head in shame. That'd be a good performance. The other fucking Steven Soderbergh supporting performance. Yeah. Oh man. I mean, like it was one of those things where I was like the del Toro performance is fantastic. I got no problem with that winning, but you know, Finney, Finney needed the win there. Yeah. I agree. I think. Yeah. But also this could have just fucking nominated him for big fish and then he beats Tim Robbins for Mystic River in 2003. Tim Robbins, Mystic River.

1:21:13The problem with Tim Robbins is in Mystic River is it's too soft. There's like 15 guys who should have won that year. Probably. Right. You know, my personal pick. I don't. Nick Nolte and Hulk. That was the year I worked on the Oscars. Really? Yeah. Who was the host? Billy Crystal. Well. Return of the King. Return of the King here. It was Naked Gollum. I did the opening film for him. I remember the opening film being funny. Yep. Yeah. I had to get Jack Nicholson's sunglasses and have them duplicated. Billy, light him up. Light him up, kid.

1:21:43But was it one of those things where like they were like, sort of get Nicholson's sunglasses? It's like a leprechaun where they're like, he can't know that you're taking them. So, we're going to distract him with a beautiful lady. You had to send them to Japan to be duplicated by the people that made them. So, they had to ship his sunglasses to Japan, which meant for like two weeks he didn't have them. Wait, what? He doesn't have a spare? No, I don't know. Those sunglasses have to be replicated. He just walked like stumbling into lampposts or whatever.

1:22:10It was crazy. It was so funny when Nicholson started just wearing them in movies. It just sort of became one of those things where you're just like, these stay on. But we had to do a shot of Billy Crystal looking out at the back of the Mystic River car going off to be molested. Oh, Jesus.

1:22:27Was this a Joel Gallen film? Mystic River. Troy Miller. Troy Miller. Mystic River, a tough parody. I definitely imagine Crystal watching that going like, ooh, where do I go in this one? I'm not sure. There's not really a fun scene to parody. Yeah. My winner that year is Bettany in Master and Commander. Oh, that would have been great. But I have Finney. I have, yeah. Del Toro again that year in 21 Grams. He is excellent in that film. So good in that movie. Yeah. And stars guarding shattered glasses that year, which is an unbelievable performance.

1:22:58That is, it wasn't nominated. No. It wasn't. He got a lot of critics awards and he was close, I think. They fucked up that year. One of the best ones. Yeah. What do you mean, Robin?

1:23:09Bring him up, Robin. Rockin' Robins. What are the other? Is Seabiscuit? Seabiscuit. Dick Billy, you know. Seabiscuit was where Billy did. Do Horseface? That's where he did. No, that's where he did Sammy, though. It was for the Seabiscuit parody. Right. No, he did not. And it took all day to get into that makeup. And then every single crew member had to take a picture with Sammy. And so that exists for every single person that worked on that film. It's a piece of compromise. The thing that looms really large in my mind, in my memory, is that in the opening medley,

1:23:40his Seabiscuit song is set to Goldfinger. Seabiscuit. Da-da-da-da. Yeah. That was a weird job, guys. That was a really weird job. Did you get to, were you there at the ceremony? No, I was there for the rehearsal, though. So I got to watch the extras get, like, sit in the seats of the nominees. This is my dream. One extra got picked every, like, award, and they got to give a speech and say whatever they wanted. Yeah, that's just what I want to see. And these were just a bunch of just crazy people.

1:24:11Yes, perfect. Getting to be on stage with the Kodak, giving a speech. It was crazy. That's incredible. Yeah. He did Monster. He did some weird ones. Come here, you little monster. That was it. We added that last second. The thing he iconically did was the something's got to give nude thing, where it's like, Nicholson sees him, and then he sees Diane. And they're all screaming. Like, they're all screaming. That was good. He's covering his privates. That worked. Yeah. Still, obviously. But the fuck they do Mr. Quiver with him in the car? That is the worst. I'm sorry.

1:24:42There's got to be something better than being kidnapped by child molesters. I'm sorry. I thought it was funny at the time, and we slipped that in. Oh, my God. Here's Sammy. Oh, God. Oh, my God. And then he did it again in 2010. Yeah. Yes. And that's the one where he does his most offensive move ever, Tintin Face. Yes, when he did Tintin Face. Where he did Tintin Face. He also just low-key does Last Samurai, but I guess he's Tom Cruise, so it's okay. Okay. He's playing. He's Tom Cruise. Yeah. He did Pirates of the Caribbean. Was he Jack? There was a thing.

1:25:12I think we cut it. No, I think he's sort of Kira. Interesting. He did a mastering commander that was like him standing behind a can, and it went off, and he's like, sorry, I tried to think about baseball or something, because he's naked. That's funny. And then, while we were editing it, the Janet Jackson boob thing happened. Yeah. So I had to go to the office on a Sunday so he could take that out. Oh, wow. Because sex was illegal? He was worried that he was going to get strung up for the cannon joke, and he was panicking.

1:25:42And yet he did job molest for Mr. River? That made it through? He was in a full panic. Michael Moore also gets stomped on by an elephant from Lord of the Rings. While he's saying, like, this Lord of the Rings war was not voted on or something. He's made fun of himself from the year before. That's fun. I love culture. Yeah, culture is good. I like high culture. High culture. That's high culture. The highest of the cultures. They filmed him in New York. Guys, it was a weird job. That sounds awesome.

Escalating threats and violence

1:26:28Okay. Cape Fear. Okay. So Max Cady kills their dog. Jesus. I mean, that's the first thing he does. I mean, the first thing is the movie theater. Yeah. Yeah, the greatest. The greatest intro you could give this guy. Juliette Lewis weirdly calls her my mom's dog, which I find very interesting distinctions. Is that rebelliousness? She's pushing away from her family. Yeah, yeah. But I like that she's fluffy, my mom's dog. But yes, they know he did it, but they can't prove it. You know, the old classic. But I mean, I just love him laughing at the movie theater like a fucking idiot at Problem Child.

1:27:04Yeah, Problem Child is a really good choice. It's such a good choice. Like, I think they had it rolling and like De Niro is miming laughing to the actual movie. Yeah, he's a method actor. Exactly. He's like, John Ritter's killing it in this. But I love that that's the first seeding. Right. Of like, I'm just going to be annoying at a movie theater and not even make contact with them. Right. And just the image of like the smoke rising around him. Yeah, it's indelible. It's funny that the family went out to see Problem Child together. Yes. We're going to do this as a family. Like, Nignolte's just so stressed out all the time.

1:27:36Problem Child is a fucking problem. We could all learn from the child. How to deal with him. John Ritter. Never seen Problem Child. Ben, you've seen it? Oh, of course. I was going to say. There's a Ben movie. Both of them? There are two? I think there might even be three. There's a TV third. And an animated series? Yeah. It's not Macaulay Culkin. That's the... Oh, that is The Good Son. The Good Son. The Child Good Son. Michael Oliver played the Problem Child. Okay, yeah. He's a little redhead. Yeah. Yeah.

1:28:06But yes, then he kills the dog. Well, wait. They go out to ice cream after. And he buys them ice cream or something? Oh, he picks up the tab. That's the first contact. Yes. He's just kind of fucking with them around the edges. Right. Yes. And kind of daring Sam to, you know, talk about it. Right? You know, in bi-existing. Yes. He's like, do you want to admit, you know, to something? Yeah. But then he targets Ileana Douglas pretty quickly. Yes. Yes. Oof. Kind of, yeah. Kind of the straight up most horrifying thing that happens in the movie.

1:28:37And it's fairly early. Incredible performance. And so out of nowhere, she's awesome. I love Ileana Douglas. I love her so much. Yeah. And attacks her, bites her cheek, rapes her. But she doesn't want to report it because I guess she doesn't want to be tagged as like, you know, for her affair or emotional affair. Right? But also, she knows the legal system. Yeah. She's like, I know what's going to happen to me. I don't want to go through this. I'll get right tarred and feathered. Right. It'll be, yeah. Yeah. Because she's a paralegal.

1:29:07She's like, I know the score. Yeah. So this is when you have to call Joe Don Baker, I guess. Yeah. That's the next level of hell that you descend into. He's just Mitchell. It's fine to be rude to him. He's Mitchell. Okay. I'm sorry. Who is he? You're saying he's this guy. Who is this? It's an iconic episode of Mystery Science Theater where it's a movie where he plays like a shitty kind of drunk cop named Mitchell. Ah, a brute force detective. Yeah. And it's just, he's sweaty and disgusting in it. And there's like a sex scene where he pulls a six pack of beer into the bed with his

1:29:39toe. Oh, and the movie's called Mitchell. Yeah. Mitchell. Andrew B. McLaughlin. It is like one of the best Mystery Science Theaters. It's iconic. The show famously dubbed him a big blurry sex machine. But, and it is the one where Joel Hodgson leaves. Okay. And is replaced. It's his last episode. So it's the final Joel episode. Got it. But it's what I associated with. That is something I know nothing about. Same. That is like one of my major pop culture blinds. Wow. I will have fans on like social media be like, oh, but surely you've seen this mystery.

1:30:10I'm like, I've never seen it. I know what it is. Yeah. But I have no context for it. You had to have had early Comedy Central. Right. I didn't have cable. And they only show that in Kids in the Hall. Right. We had a satellite dish. See, I would watch Kids in the Hall on early Comedy Central and not Mystery Science Theater. I totally get it. It totally just went over me. You weren't lonely enough. I'm going to push back on that. You had to be lonely enough to watch a movie twice in one day. I just think I went lateral in my loneliness. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That's Joe Don Baker. That's Joe Don Baker. So you call him in and he's also a corrupt cop in Fletch.

1:30:42Yeah. Yeah. And like 15 other things. He's everything. I imagine. He was always a corrupt cop. Yeah. He's in James Bond. He is weirdly, as we've already covered on our Patreon, he's the villain in the living daylights. And then Bond's friend in GoldenEye and Tomorrow Never Dies is a different character. He's in Volcano, I think, too. Coast is toast. I mean, he had an incredible career. When did we lose him? I'm not seeing Volcano. He died in 2025.

1:31:06Wow. At the age of 89. Wow. But he basically seems to have retired from acting in like the sort of mid-2000s. Mm-hmm. His final role, he had a tiny role in Mud, though, which is 2012. Oh, sure. Cool. The Jeff Nichols movie. I'm not seeing Volcano. He's in Congo. I meant Congo. Sorry, I meant Congo. We always mean Congo. Or they go to a volcano in Congo. Yeah, where you are the endangered species. I just love to do the tackling.

1:31:33Amy Goodgorella. Amy Goodgorella. Amy Goodgorella. Tracy Letts despises that film. Sean Fentasy loves it. That's the only one he doesn't like? That's the one movie? Just that one. Just that one. But we talked about it on the episode. Yes. And he was very anti. It's a very stupid movie. It's a fun-ass movie. It's a little fun. I don't know. I think it's got... It's got Laura Linney talking to a gorilla. That's what you're thinking.

1:31:58It's smart. It's got me thinking I got to keep away from hippos. That's what it's got me thinking about. Went to the Bronx Zoo recently. Congrats. Fucking rocks. Better than Central Park? I mean, there's no comparison. Night and day. It's like 50 times the size. It's so huge. You gotta go. I've been. I can't remember the last time. It was when I was a child. I think we covered about... We were there for hours and we covered about half of it. It's so massive. That's cool. Do they have any 4D movies? I texted you and J.D. a picture. They have something about saving the gorillas. It didn't look exciting enough.

1:32:29I think maybe the aquarium has something that rocks and rolls a little bit. At least jostles. Gotta find something. Maybe some jostling. Yeah. But anyway, Claude Kersak. That's the Joe Don Baker character. Private investigator. Which I guess he's just sort of looking for like, can you catch this guy doing something bad and then I'll have something back on him or whatever. Right. Right. The next big thing is that, you know, him, Katie seducing Juliette Lewis, sort of pretending to be her drama teacher. Right. Yeah.

1:32:59Awesome. What do you guys think? Awesome. Yeah. Nolte makes contact with him. There's the scene with the car keys. Yes. Which is taken basically directly from the original film. Yeah. Um, and then there's the moment of Jessica Lange coming out to get the mail and interfacing with him. Right. And she's sort of fascinated and it's in the wake of her finding out about the Ileana Douglas thing. Right. So she's sort of emotionally stirred up and she's a little bit like, not, she's curious. She's not. But he also has gotten the dog at that point too. She's like, I know who you are, Max Katie.

1:33:30Right. She takes him seriously. Yeah. Uh, but then Juliette Lewis makes the mistake of coming out calling for her mom. Right. Max Katie clocks her and it's like, there's my fucking angle right there. There's a cutie pie. Yeah. Um, is there any sexual dynamic between, uh, Katie and Sam? And there isn't. No. But would that be interesting? Well, that's, sounds like what the Apple series asks. Oh, yeah. Yeah. You know, like, is there a way, I mean, cause obviously there is a little bit in that Katie

1:34:01is this like disgusting alpha kind of sexual and like Sam's this kind of like shrinking Violet or whatever, but it's interesting that there's no tension there, but I guess it's the early 90s. I think also he doesn't, he likes girls. He does. Yeah. He's good. He's kind of. He doesn't want a full grown woman. Yes. Um, yes. But anyway, uh, yeah. The seduction of Juliette Lewis. I just feel like that is, I know that this is Marty being like, I'll make you a programmer. It's just so crazy. Yes. That he's like, here's some ideas I have though.

1:34:32And Universal's like thumbs up. You know what I mean? Like that's, I guess I have to applaud him for that where he's really finding like frightening, unsettling new angles on this story. That's what I love. But keeping it in a blockbuster package. Yeah. Cause the scene is just so thoroughly strange that even when it's deeply upsetting, it is compelling to watch. He also is like very reserved in this scene for how bizarre the behavior is. Right. Yeah. He stops doing all of his camera tricks. Right. And it becomes like just very clean coverage.

1:35:03He isn't filming it like a sex scene. He's not filming it like a sex scene. He's filming it like a, like, can you believe this is happening? It's anthropological and he slows everything way down. The movie's been moving so fast. This scene goes on for so long because I think he knows in order to sell this to an audience, it has to be really, really gradual brick by brick. And you have to watch it all play out on her face while she thinks about what she's going to do or what she's going to say and then decides and how she's so like, just so vulnerable emotionally. It's incredible.

1:35:34And you have to give her the space to be able to go through what you're saying. Every one of those emotions of when she feels comforted, when she feels seen, when she feels scared, when she feels attracted, when she feels depressed, like all of it. Yeah. At this point, you have to, you have to do it. You have to pull the trigger on the pipe gang, the lead pipe guys. There's no other choice. I just love the premise of like, look, I know four guys will be in my family. And Jonah Baker's like, I recommend four. I recommend the full four.

1:36:05Can I hide behind a dumpster and watch? I'd love to watch. I want to get my money's worth. Oh my God. There's a really, really, I did think really interesting though, is that scene right before that where he asks, uh, Julius, did he touch you? And then they freak and the way she's like, get out of here to him is really. She's so. Feral. Good. Who beats her this year for best actress, best supporting actress? Um, great question. I know. She'd obviously, she's already in like, uh, National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation, right? Was that her breakout? I guess.

1:36:35Yeah. Mercedes rule for the Fisher King, which is sort of a weird win. A weird win. I, you know, a performance, I, I, I think, you know, works. Yeah. But you watch it now and you're like, this one best supporting actress? Like, why? And obviously she was a name, Mercedes rule, and she was liked. Yes. She did a thing. She had built a good body of work over a couple of years leading up to that. Yeah. I think she might be kind of the worst of the five nominated and it's sort of a weird five. I also would have nominated Amanda Plummer over her for that same movie.

1:37:06I was going to say, that's the performance. I think Plummer's great in that movie. She's great in that movie. And I guess she was just newer and like, right, less, you know, but like, I, I guess Juliette Lewis wasn't going to win because she was young, right? Sure. Like, I don't know. Um. But who are the other three? Uh, Diane Ladd in Rambling Rose. Mm-hmm. You know, obviously for your nomination and she's playing Laura Dern's mom, but she's great. Kate Nelligan in Prince of Tides, a movie we've discussed. A good performance. Yeah. But a nom. Um, yes. Uh, and then Jessica Tandy in Fry Green Tomatoes, who had just won an Oscar.

1:37:36Sure. Probably wasn't going to win again. Yeah. Yeah. She's old in that movie. She's like, I'm old. Wait, keep going. That was her one move she had. I'm so old. Uh, but yeah, Mercedes Rule won the Golden Globe as well. The only difference there is that Nicole Kidman gets nominated for Billy Bathgate, uh, instead of, uh, Kate Nelligan. Interesting. Yeah. I don't, you know, I don't know. Like, she's great. I don't know. I mean, like, I think it's a good performance. Who do I have? Pipe Gang. I nominate Pipe Gang.

1:38:07Best Supporting Pipe Gang.

1:38:10Uh, yeah. I mean, I have, so wait, it's 91? Yeah. 92 Ceremony for 91 films. Jane Hark's, Her Life is Sweet. Great win by me. Wow. I like that. And who are your other four? Judy Davis in Naked Lunch, Alva Rogers in Daughter of the Dust, Christina Reach in The Addams Family, and Juliette Lewis in Cape Fear. So do you nominate Christina Ricci for both Addams Family movies? I nominated her Supporting for the first one and Lead for the second one. This is where David becomes a, just a big brain genius. I'm for it. She becomes a lead in the second. Yeah, yeah. No, I think that's a fair case.

1:38:41In the first one, she's very much Supporting. Yes, yes. But, but, but she comes in and she reigns threes in the first one. Absolutely. Like, it's crazy. She gets buckets. I mean, like, Christina Reach in Addams Family values is one of those things where you're like, I guess they found the real Wednesday Addams. Right. You know, like, that's a cartoon character. You're like, there must just be a real one and that's who it is. It's one of those things for me. It's, it's like, like, Tobey Maguire will always be my Spider-Man. Right. The way the people of a certain generation are fixated on whoever was James Bond when they were a kid. Totally. Where I'm just like, no disrespect to Jenna Ortega, but there was one Wednesday Addams.

1:39:13I would agree. Absolutely. We found her in the 90s. I'll admit I've not, I've still haven't checked in with Wednesday. Me neither. Yeah. Yeah. The Critics Awards went to Jane Addams. I'm sorry. Judy Davis won. It's the year where she has Naked Lunch and Barton Fink. Oh, sure. So that's kind of fun. Yeah. Yeah. Rude if the Oscars did not nominate her for either. Well, they were rude to her. They were rude to her. The Oscars were mean to Judy Davis. And she's famously rude to everybody. I know. I was saying. Bit of a, bit of a handful. Yeah.

1:39:41Anyway, but Juliette Lewis is great. But the Pipe Gang is not. They fail. They don't do a good job at all. Yeah, they do a terrible job. Although I think you can't get Katie. No. Like, he's unstoppable. I think if someone shot him in the face with a shotgun, he wouldn't die. Like, that's the point of next Katie. I like this movie making him supernatural. Exactly. Like, it's like, I mean, they set him on fire at the end and it doesn't kill him. Right. It does make him look a little fucked up. But it feels like he is a manifestation of guilt. Yes. That is just compounded for over a decade. Or an avenging devil. He's like, yeah, he's the devil. Yes.

1:40:11Yeah. So, that rocks. It rocks that he's the devil. Yeah, that he's the devil. So, yeah. What happens after? I mean, and then it's him getting Sam on the tape recorder. Right. You know, being cleverer than him. Yes. Do you like the tape recorder move? Yeah, I do. In general? Yeah, in general. Like, that's a classic movie thing. Yes. It's like the guy walks away and the other guy goes like, I recorded it. I like it best when it's a bunny cop and the tape recorder is a carrot pen.

1:40:41Of course. Yeah, that's good. Yes. Did two bring that back? It did. It did. The carrot pen was like a big part of two. Yeah, well, because they got to keep selling that merch. I guess. Do I need to buy a carrot pen? Yeah, your daughter doesn't have a carrot pen. What's she doing?

1:40:55Dude, she put on her Princess Peach costume. Uh-huh. You mentioned this in another episode. Oh, did I? Okay, okay, yeah. She started, she just, the power went to her head. Her reign has begun. It was crazy. That's going to be for Halloween? Yeah. And the boys are going to be Mario and Luigi. Oh, man. I mean, that's a layup. That's crazy. That was a layup. That's cute. Do you have, like, 10 years of twin costumes planned? No, I, no. Last year, they were Bert and Ernie. Okay. Right, like, so every year, we're just, but there's a lot of pairs. Next year, they'll be the Menendez brothers. In the basketball card that you can see them in.

1:41:26You know about that? Yes, yes, yes. Are they in the background of a basketball? You'll build a big frame around them. It's either, it's like Mark Jackson. Yeah, like, there's a Mark Jackson basketball card where you can see them sitting courtside. That's so funny. And I think it's after they did the crime. Yeah. It's so crazy. Well, they had, like, months of spending money. Yeah. Yeah, well, they got to see the fucking Knicks, the 91 Knicks. Yeah. Or whatever they were, 90 Knicks. Yeah, what else happens in Cape Fear? Um, they go on the houseboat.

1:41:56Yeah, he's like, we need to trick him into thinking that we're going on vacation. Or go on vacation. I was about to say, you might as well just go on vacation at that point, have fun. Well, for, no, but there's, first there's the, um, where he kills the housekeeper. Yes. All right. Yeah, first it's, right, that they. Who has the same haircut as him? Yes. It's all been set up for that moment, for him to be able to dress up as her. Those are just the moments where I'm like, is Scorsese trying to hint at something? And obviously it's very Hitchcock. You're saying psychosexually. Yeah, like, where he puts him in the dress. Yeah. The incredible thing that I fucking love of where Nolte wakes up and he's the camera

1:42:30negative vision of him. Yes. Like, that is so good and so simple. We should also call out the opening credits, which is, is this the final Saul and Elaine Bass? Perhaps? No, because they did a casino. Yes. Oh, cool. But the opening credits in this are fucking unbelievable. Yeah. Are so cool. The ripples of the water. Yeah. And the negative images. I mean, at this point, he's committed several crimes. Yes. And I think they should call the police. Yes. The problem is the crimes are escalating at such a rate that the police might not get there in time. But I mean, 9-1-1, in my opinion.

1:43:00Yes. At this point, and I'm not saying the police solve everyone's problem. I'm not. Right. But I do think in this Max Cady killing people situation, you might not want to just, like, leave it to yourself. Yes. Yeah. But yes, obviously the point, Nick Nolte says this when he eventually does call his lawyer or, you know, where he's like, I guess we're fugitives. Yeah. And so, well, you are a fugitive. Obviously, you're on the run. Yeah. But he's like, I'm like, unless you get Max Cady, I'm not going to stay still. Right? Like, that's his thinking. Yes. What they don't know is that Max Cady can hold on to the underside of cars.

1:43:33Right? Yep. In the 60s one, they get a cop to go with them. Right. To the boat. Right. Because Nolte's, because they don't have anything to hide at this point. Right. Yeah. The Joe Don Baker character is a composite of what is two different characters in the 62 movie. Right. Yeah. They just leave the bodies. Yeah. I think they do. They mention it. They're like, oh, I'm thinking about our house. They're like, at one point in the boat, Juliette Lewis is like, the housekeeper had a brother,

1:44:05has a brother. And she's like, we'll call him when we get off the boat, basically. Yeah. We'll have some bad news for him in a couple of days. It's so nasty when they're slipping around in the blood. That's a true, like, this is the mess you made, right? Where he's just suddenly covered in the blood. It kind of seems like he steps in the blood on purpose so he could slip and slide. It's also. What was his plan? It's another moment that Juliette Lewis plays beautifully. Yes. When she discovers Joe Don Baker's body. Oh, yeah. And it's like a really. And he's like, don't look, don't look. Realistic, like, shock. Like, you know, you realize how rarely you see shock actually depicted on screen.

1:44:36She sees the housekeeper. It's a housekeeper. Oh, it's a housekeeper. Okay. With the garotid neck. Yes. Yes. Very nasty. It's a nasty movie. The Jessica Lange scene is also deeply upsetting where she tries to offer herself to get Max Katie to focus on her instead of Juliette Lewis. Yeah. So that's not really his bag. It's not really his bag. Although. I like women with bras. When he gets burnt, he's got kind of a quado kind of look. Yeah. He looks really rubbery. Yeah. I'm going to guess there was some rubbery makeup on him.

1:45:07Yes. I'm just saying, it's not realistic makeup at all. No. He looks like a mutant. I can only imagine sitting down to this movie in 1991. Yeah. And maybe you know the Mitchum backpack movie or whatever, right? Yeah. Yeah. Like, and you're like, oh, yeah, no, I know what I'm in for. And by the end, when he looks like that, and he's going, I'm blah, blah, blah, blah, I'm just speaking in tongues. What is going on? Yes. What is this? Like, it's great. But yet, like, audiences loved it. They did. Yeah.

1:45:37It's a slasher film. Yeah. I mean, how many people die?

1:45:42Five, four, three or four. Not so bad. Yeah. At the end of the day, I've seen worse. And you don't actually see Katie die. You just see him floating off. He might just be floating off to his next adventure. It doesn't feel like he's dead. No. I know the idea is he's going to drown. Yeah. And it's over. But I'm like, no, he'll be back. Yeah. You can't kill him. Max Katie Legacy sequel coming soon. Does De Niro have that in him anymore? No, I don't think so. Like, I love him in Killers of the Flower Moon. Yes. I think it's one of his best performances in, like, many, many years.

1:46:14And that just sort of feels about as big as he can go these days. I think so. Like, he can't do this anymore. No, no, no. This takes a tremendous amount of energy, and he's a man in his 80s. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know what, Robert De Niro? I'm sorry for calling you a coward. He's a bit of a sleepy time king. Yeah, he's a bit of a sleepy time king. Yeah. The houseboat explodes. Like, it's so fun the way it breaks apart. It's like the miniature of it, or whatever it is. Yeah. I mean, it's like a maximature, right? A bigature is what Peter Jackson likes to call them. Is that what he calls them? Yeah.

1:46:44Right, because that's what it is, right? We're looking at, like, a pretty sizable thing. It's so satisfying to watch that thing come apart. Ben, you've ever blown up a houseboat, Ben? Have I ever blown up a houseboat? No, no, no, no. Just looked at Zillow being like, should I be a houseboat guy? Should I buy a houseboat? I spent time on a houseboat. Which one? What was that? In Florida with my parents and my grandparents. Were you solving mysteries? I wish. Yeah, you're Tavis McGee. Yeah. But yeah, I did that. I was pretty young, but it was fun.

1:47:15Wow. And I got to go on a tube and hang off the, like, on the back. Tubing, right. The rope. You'd fit in well on that milieu. I can see it. Yeah. You can solve mysteries on a houseboat. Oh. I think if I were to go swamp, I would do a fanboat. Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, sure, we can't live on a fanboat, can you? Yeah, that's a little tough. Yeah. That's how you explore the keys. I just like the idea of, like, if shit goes bad, I've always got the houseboat. Yeah. You know what I mean? I like it as a sort of a backup.

1:47:45Yes. Yeah. Right? Like, if my life falls to shit, I'll just go to the pier. Yes. And we'll get on the houseboat, and we'll float off somewhere new. I love houseboat characters. Yeah. It's always a good, it's just, it's almost lazy screenwriting, where you're like, the deal with this guy is he owns a houseboat, and I'm like, I get it. Yep. Like, that's fine.

1:48:04What's scary is, because I did this in Florida at night, the gators bark, so you can hear them, and it's just, it really disturbed me. I don't love it. There are a lot of those things where you're just like, you're from the past. You don't belong now. You shouldn't exist. Gators. Yeah. Yeah. It's all one of them of the Bronx Zoo. Fucking dinosaurs. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. What are you doing here? Like, what's going on? Go back. Go back. Yeah, just. Get your ass back to prehistoric times. You know, in England, there's the narrowboats. Yes. Which are built for canals, and people live on them.

1:48:35Ooh, that looks cool. They're super cool. We used to, yeah. I love that the movie ends on Juliette Lewis. Me too. I love that it refocuses to be basically her lasting trauma. Yeah. And even though she's speaking about it with a certain level of maturity, but just her narration starts with, like, we never talked about that ever again. Right. And then it goes, going into the photo negative her. Yes. Yes. Yeah, I love that. And then just speaking to the brokenness of this family. Yeah. Do we like the little mock trial that he does? At that point, things have gotten pretty chaotic. I feel like he's proving his own prosecution case by being like, I'm going to buy this

1:49:11one just to get you. But yeah, it's cool. And do we like him speaking in tongues? I do. I love it. That I like. Yeah, that's fun. And then singing the hymn, on Jordan's Stormy Banks I Stand, is the hymn. This is De Niro's last Oscar nomination until Silver Linings Playbook, right? Wow. He basically has a 20-year gap. That's so crazy. Isn't that wild? I mean, I know that there was a long gap. I'm just triple checking. I think that's right, though. Yeah, it is. Yeah. Because basically, it becomes kind of like stuff like Casino or whatever other good movies

1:49:42he's in. He, you know, Jackie Brown, like the Oscars, I think at that point, were kind of like, yeah, well, you're fine. Yeah. Like, we don't need to bother. It's sort of what they're doing with Tom Hanks now. Exactly the same. Yeah. I'm watching the end. This looked like it was fucking miserable to fill this last plane tank. Oh, my God.

Box office performance in 1991

1:49:59Yes. Yeah. This film came out November 15th, 1991. It made $10 million opening weekend. Expanded it and took another $10 million. Ended at $80 million against a budget of $35 million worldwide. $182 million. Easily the most Scorsese he's ever made. Yeah. Take it. Ebert is kind of like, is this a good omen for him to be doing this kind of stuff? Right. Everyone's sort of pocket-watching him. Like three stars, but Vincent Canby is like, yeah, he's having fun.

1:50:29Yeah. But, you know. Is this the best use of time for our best omen? Sure. Yeah. Yeah. It's November 1st, 1991, Griffin. Okay. It's number one at the box office. Okay. Number two is a comedy from a comedy auteur. Okay. Written, produced, and directed by him. John Hughes. It is John Hughes. In 1991. Yes. It's not Curly Sue. It is Curly Sue. His final film as a director. Look out, America. The world's smallest con artist is in town.

1:51:01His real run was so quick. Yeah. It's his last film. You're right. I mean, obviously, he wrote, you know, Beethoven. 101 Dalmatians and Flubber and Beethoven and Come On 2 and all that. Baby's Day Out. Yeah. Curly Sue's not good. Never seen. No, it's not good. That's a Jim Belushi, is it? It's a Jimbo. Yeah. But it's a little girl? Little girl with real I'll-do-anything girl energy, I would say. Perfectly put. Yes, absolutely. Yes. Yes. Yeah, it's interesting because if we do Hughes, I would say this is the only one you never

1:51:32hear anyone really speaking up for. Yeah. Pretty much every, I mean, she's having a baby is kind of forgotten, but like, it's not bad. It's not bad. No, it's not bad at all. Bacon. Bacon. Bacon? Bacon. Sizzles. Yeah. Number two is Curly Sue. Why did he start making movies? He hated Hollywood. And by all accounts, he also got very scared by the death of John Candy, who he related to very strongly, who he felt a real kinship with and felt like Hollywood had kind of drained him. Right. He wanted to go back to Chicago, basically.

1:52:02So he, yeah, he bought a big plot of land and he raised his kids away from Hollywood and he was like, I can just fart out like flubber. Garbage. Right. Well, wait a second. If you can fart out flubber, we need to call the nation scientists. But that's the thing. He would like every couple of years be like, what is Disney trying to make? Like live action, 101 Dalmatians. And he was like, I'll write it under the name Edmund Dantes and they'll pay me two million dollars. Edmund Dantes, of course, the name of what is kind of Monte Cristo character. And I'll just stay away from Hollywood again. Wow.

1:52:33Yes.

1:52:35Number three, the box office is a romantic comedy Christmas film. I've never seen it. It's a romantic comedy Christmas film. Yes. In 1981. Thora Birch is in it. Thora Birch is in it. As a little girl. As a little girl. Romantic comedy Christmas. I've never heard of it. It has one of those titles that's just like a song. Sleigh Bells. All I Want for Christmas. Okay. Who are the leads? Of course, Lauren Bacall is in this film. Is the romantic lead? No, it's like Harley Jane Kozak.

1:53:06Okay. Jamie Sheridan. Okay. I don't know. It's about siblings. Jamie Sheridan's a good actor. Sure. It's about siblings who launch a scheme involving their parents and their grandmother. I assume, yeah, Lauren Bacall's the grandmother. To get what they most want for Christmas. Oh, she meets Santa Claus and says, I want my divorced parents to get back together. Okay. Yeah. The poster is them holding Santa Claus upside down. Yeah. Okay. Leslie Nielsen. Leslie Nielsen plays Santa Claus. Actually, I should watch this. Yeah. Actually, you're going to watch it. Number four at the box office is a pretty good, pretty underrated horror movie from one

1:53:40of the masters. Is it a Wes Craven? It is. In 1991. Yes. Is it Shocker? No. Hmm. No. I've actually never seen Shocker. Is it People Under the Stairs? It's The People Under the Stairs. Quite a good film. Yes. Yeah. Have you seen The People Under the Stairs? I did. Yeah. Back in the day. I do like it quite a bit. Pretty good. I think it's a Jordan Peele favorite, which makes a lot of sense. Very good. Yeah. Definitely Craven trying to, like, make a horror movie with something socially important. A social thriller. Yeah. Number five at the box office is another fucking little kid movie.

1:54:13This one is directed by an actor, an actress, I should say. Okay. It's directed by an actress. It's her directorial debut. Is it Little Man Tate? Little Man Tate. Little Man Tate. Where he's, like, a child prodigy? Correct. Yeah. Jodie Foster. And she's giving him a hug. She's hugging him hard on that poster. Diane Wiest is the woman who wants to put him in college, basically. Oh. And Jodie Foster's like, no, we're a working class. We don't do that. I want to be normal. I'm enjoying this performance of Jodie Foster doing another accent. That's what she's like.

1:54:43She's like, no. No, you can't. And David's like, but we really have to. He's like, no. Jodie Foster. That's a really good Diane Wiest. Diane Wiest, by the way. Diane Wiest. No one has a Wiest. Yeah, exactly. That's impressive. Yeah. Yeah.

1:54:59Foster is just one of those people where you're like, well, what's a Foster? And then someone does it and you're like, oh, I see. That's a Foster. Big time, that's a Foster. You know it when you see it. Jennifer Saunders. I remember doing it in French and Saunders, which the British sketch show. It's a perfect Jodie Foster when there's Saunders, the Lamb's sketch. That's number five. Number six is Billy Bathgate. Sure. This is kind of a weird 10. Yeah. These are a lot of movies that are sort of prestigy, but not working out. Billy Bathgate, obviously, the Robert Denton adaptation of the E.L. Doctor.

1:55:30Now I've never seen it. Robert Benton. Robert Benton, sorry. Dustin Hoffman is the star. Yeah. A young, hot Nicole Kidman. First kind of strike at a Nicole Kidman Oscar campaign. Major bomb. Like, very expensive movie that went nowhere. Is Bruce Willis in that as well? I mean, he was addicted to being in major bombs that were expensive and went nowhere in the early 90s. He sure is. Yeah. Hoffman, Kidman, Lauren Dean, Bruce Willis. Young, Stanley Tucci is lucky Luciano. I've never seen it. He's in it. Obsessed with that era where Bruce Willis would take sort of supporting parts in legit movies

1:56:03to try to get an Oscar break. And it usually wouldn't work. Yes. Because, like, Bonfire of the Vanities is that. Yes. What's the other one? In Country? Yeah. Is that what it's called? Which he's actually pretty good in there. Yeah. You got Other People's Money, which I already shouted out, which also has Gregory's Quickening. Smoking a Stogie. Ben, Highlander 2, The Quickening. Yes. Well, well, well. Am I a fan? Do I enjoy it? Sure. Can there only be one? Yes. Except there was a second film. All right. There was a second one. But there can only be one Highlander. Sure, sure, sure, sure. But, and Connery's back.

1:56:36Connery is back, I think, very briefly. Uh-huh. And Michael Ironside and Virginia Madsen are aboard. Yeah. The big two. I feel like The Quickening is a really strong subtitle. It's so strong. You're like, I don't know what that means, but I know that Highlander's in trouble if the Quickening is happening.

1:56:57This is going to be a problem for him. Uh, number nine. And look forward to the Highlander commentary series coming soon. Don't do it. I think, no, I think we can honestly say when the new one comes out. When the new one comes out. Yeah. We'll do a commentary series. Yes. Cavill, but it's, uh. Did he get hurt or something during the filming of it? Yes. I don't know. But I think it's, it's finished. I think it's finished filming. It's, uh, Chad Stileski. Okay. I mean, I'm in, I'm fine. And I believe Russell Crowe is maybe playing the Sean Connery part. Russell Crowe is playing the mentor guy.

1:57:29I've seen that Crowe is in like good shape for it. He's been kind of showing off. Interesting. I got pretty tanked for this one. You guys keep sharing photos of him at the gym with his son. Yeah. Like he's been, he's been sharing a lot of photos. He's kind of like Crowe, you know, cause Crowe, you know, he, the COVID peak of the car, the movie where he's in the car yelling, unhinged, unhinged, that is Crowe. I feel like at his heaviest, he got very big there and now he's been kind of like getting more back to kind of like, you know, I'm still a big guy, but I'm a little like more in shape.

1:57:59But, uh, unhinged has one of the greatest clips. People share it all the time where he's just like, I don't think you even know what you're talking about. I'm going to fucking kill you. You know where he's, does no one know what I'm talking about? No, I know what you're talking about. Yeah. Did you see unhinged? I did not. All right. Well, check it out. I've never seen it. It was on like 40,000 screens in the middle of COVID. Uh, number nine of the box office is a movie called Strictly Business. No idea what that is. This is a, ah, an African-American film, uh, with a young Halle Berry. Okay. Uh, uh, Tommy Davidson, George, Joseph C. Phillips, never seen this movie. Uh, it's literally like, you know, just like a male clerks trying to hook up, uh, with a

1:58:34girl at a club. Okay. You know, and hijinks ensue or whatever. Love it. Um, never seen Kevin Hook's film. Uh, number 10 is Frankie and Johnny. Another sort of awards-y. Oh no, that's the Pacino one. Yes. Pacino and Pfeiffer. Oh, but like another awards-y movie that doesn't work. Gary Marshall directed it. Uh, it got like, you know, like Pfeiffer got like a globe nom, you know, whatever. But like all this stuff's just not working. Yeah. Cape Fear is ready to run the table for the next couple of weeks. Silence of the Lambses having come out almost a year ago.

1:59:08No, I just mean at the box office. I know, I know. But like, it's just funny that like all these Oscar-y movies are failing and like by the end of the year, people are like, I guess we just go for Silence of the Lambs. That was just the best thing I've seen. Yes. That was so good. Yeah. And you know what? That and Cape Fear being hits in the same year. It was a lurid time in American cinema. Something dark was happening. Yeah. I love that.

Plugs and final credits

1:59:27It's good. Eva, thank you for being here. Guys, thank you so much for having me talk about Cape Fear. What a delight. You're the best. You guys are the best. Margo's Got Money Troubles. On Apple TV. That's going to be a season two. Is that allowed? We're working on season two right now. Okay, yeah. So how are money troubles?

1:59:48Guys, more money, more troubles. More money, more troubles. That's what I've always heard. But yeah, thank you so much for having me. Oh, you know what? I'm also going to plug because my husband made Party Down. The best. And it is on Netflix now, including the third season, which was difficult to watch. You had to have stars. Now you can watch it on Netflix. It's an incredible season. It is one of the few comedy shows to return after a long absence and not miss a beat, in my opinion. It was so good. It was up to the standards of the first two seasons. It's one of my favorite shows ever. Oh, check it out. That's my plug. Great plug.

2:00:19Great plug. Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review, and subscribe. Next week is Casino. Next. Next week is The Age of Innocence. It's The Age of Innocence. I'm having a hard time just because of how long this series is keeping the order. Yes. Age of Innocence with the great Libby Watson. Cool. On the show for the first time. Yep. We love her. Yes. So tune in for that over on Patreon, Ben. Over on Patreon, we're still in the midst of our Resident Evil commentary series.

2:00:51We're nearing the end. We just recently released the final chapter and in a few days will be the welcoming to Raccoon City. Which is a lot of us talking about Zack Greger's 2026 movie because there's not a ton of interesting stuff happening on screen in Welcome to Raccoon City. Apologies to this film. But if you want to hear us talk about it, both David's feelings on the movie and my experiences working on the movie. And just the lack of raccoons throughout the franchise. Ben, that's a major gripe.

2:01:22Yes. I get it. And as always. Yes. No, we did it. We did it. And as always. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

2:01:37Blank Check with Griffin and David is hosted by Griffin Newman and David Sims. Our executive producer is me, Ben Hosley. Our creative producer is Marie Barty Salinas. And our associate producer is AJ McKeon. This show is mixed and edited by AJ McKeon and Alan Smithy. Research by J.J. Birch. Our theme song is by Lane Montgomery in the Great American Novel. With additional music by Alex Mitchell. Artwork by Joe Bowen, Ollie Moss, and Pat Reynolds. Our production assistant is Minnick.

2:02:07Special thanks to David Cho, Jordan Fish, and Nate Patterson for their production help. Head over to BlankCheckPod.com for links to all of the real nerdy shit. Join our Patreon, Blank Check Special Features, for exclusive franchise commentaries and bonus episodes. Follow us on social at BlankCheckPod. Subscribe to our weekly newsletter, Checkbook on Substack. This podcast is created and produced by Blank Check Production.