Publius Aelius Traianus Hadrianus Augustus: Possessed and OBSESSED!

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1:06This is Raquel and Chelsea, and you're listening to Baroque Bitches. Welcome to Baroque Bitches. Bitches. Your art and art history gossip podcast. I'm Raquel. I'm Chelsea. We're going to get into this Down Dirty D on this highbrow art. Oh my god, happy freaking Wednesday, everybody. Happy Wednesday. Halloween is over, so all the spooky people are sad. Um, I have news about my eyeball costume. How'd it go? It didn't go the best. Oh no. It didn't go the best.

1:40Because people kept thinking that we were boobs. And I'm like, no. Okay, so we show up. So we went to Haunted Harbor. Everyone's in costume. It's hilarious. And we're showing up. I'm so proud, even though I'm sweating my ass off because it's not cold at all. And we have these giant puffer jackets. So I, so me and Alex tried to be eyeballs. And I got these big white puffer jackets. So we kind of look like big circles.

2:14Yeah. And I painted this little like eyeball iris looking painting. And, um, and we wore that. Was it flesh tone? Like, why did people think you were boobs? It was brown. It was brown because I didn't like, all of the eyeball costumes were blue eyes. And I was like, dude, that's racist. No, brown eyes are the most common eyes. So what the fuck? So I made brown eye irises. And they looked so good. But then, so I was like so proud of it.

2:50I did eye makeup. I did a big eye on Alex's head. Alex is bald. So I put a big eye on his head. It looked great. And so we're, I'm rolling, we're rolling up into Haunted Harbor. And the first fucking ticket, bitch, was like, oh my God, you guys are boobs. I'm like, what? I'm like, oh shit. Honestly, that's better. That's better. I love that. They think we're boobs? I think that's so funny as a costume, as a couple's

3:24costume, though, to be boobs. That's pretty good. I mean, I was so, we were so dedicated to the eyeballs. So then the next person, we went to this like little hookah bar station that they had. Haunted Harbor was dope, by the way. They had a hookah bar? That's wild. Yeah, they had a hookah bar. And I went up to the lady and she's like, oh, what are you guys? And it's like, we're eyeballs. We're eyeballs.

3:57We're eyeballs. And she's like, oh, that would be my second guest. I'm like, bitch, bitch, I don't want to be an eyeball on you. I don't want to be a boob. So that was my Halloween was like, we're eyeballs. We're eyeballs. Listen, we're eyeballs. Listen, it looks like an eyeball is an eyeball. Listen, you got to be pro-titty. It's fine. It's fine. I guess we were like white titties, I guess. You just weren't.

4:29White titties with brown areola. Dead lady titties. Dead lady titties with brown areola. Yeah. Aw. Well, I'm sorry, but I'm still, I love that for you. So yeah, the eyeball. And then the thing is like everyone on social media has all of these ideas that I didn't think about, that I wish I thought about, like the ones that were Ricky and Julian from Trailer Park Boys of like, I want to do that. Like, I want to do that.

5:03I want to be Ricky. You got a whole other year. I know. I have a whole year to think about. To prepare. And now we're just kind of in like holiday purgatory where everybody's like. Here we are. In a huge internet feud over what to do if it's Christmas or we fall. Are we canceling it? What kind of hands, like what kind of household are we, do we decorate now?

5:33Do we wait after Thanksgiving and everybody, I feel like the internet makes you feel like it's so important to figure that out. Yeah. But I'm here to tell you, I'm very proponent of do whatever the fuck you want and don't let those Insta moms trick you into thinking that you are a bad parent because you're not home making all of your gifts and decorating your house with a million decorations.

6:04Because you don't have the Ralph Lauren Christmas. Or a gazillion dollars. Or, and you also have a full-time fucking job. So. And I am liking the cancel Christmas, the cancel Christmas crew. The anti-corporate Christmas. We're so poor right now. Like, why are we still doing this shit, you guys? But it is fun. I mean, put up the tree, whatevs. It's fun. Put up your little decor. Do whatever. Do whatever you want.

6:35You don't have to have it all be beige or all be green or whatever, pink now. Go back to 1990s where everything wasn't aesthetic. Yeah. Of just like your weird tchotchke that's been passed down that's like half broken. Like, that's fun. Yeah. That's weird. We like weird. We're not doing Christmas yet. We're still stuck in fall. And because we're still stuck in fall, we're going to keep it a little spooky with this episode.

7:07So. I still haven't shifted out of Halloween mode. And this story is like trauma, sexy, sexy scandals, questionable deaths. Ooh. Ooh. Burr, der, der, der, der. Which reminds me, this is another episode that is sexual and violent and even sometimes like rapey stuff in it. So. Okay. Okay. Be mindful of who you're listening around. And if these themes are at all triggering for you, we love you and we'll see you next time. Yeah. But. Okay. Are you ready?

7:41I'm so ready. Oh my God. I'm all excited. We're filming in the morning. So I'm caffeinated. Oh my God. I'm so much more energy. Oh, let's visualize. Visualize. Visualize. Visualize. Visualize. Visualize. Visualize. Visualize. Visualize. Visualize. Visualize. Visualize. Visualize. Visualize. Visualize. The water is still. It has not spoken since the day it swallowed him. The air tastes like copper and salt, thick with the ghost of the sea. Something divine and human at once. He stands at the edge where the light trembles on the surface, where the

8:18world seems to hold its breath. He can almost see the curve of a shoulder, the ripple of laughter caught beneath the current. But when he reaches for it, only coldness answers. The silence is unbearable. That endless echoing absence where once there was breath, warmth, a heartbeat pressed against his. Everywhere he turns, the world box him with beauty. The marble gleams too white, the statues too still. His artist carved the curve of that familiar face again and again, a thousand versions, none alive, all perfect.

8:55He tells them to make more, to carve him into gods, to let the world see what he saw. He builds temples not for worship, but for remembrance, cities not for the living, but to anchor the dead. He cannot speak the name without tasting both devotion and damnation, so he builds instead, stone upon stone, prayer upon prayer, until grief becomes architecture. At night he dreams of the body beside him, the warmth of skin, the pulse

9:30of youth, the unbearable knowledge that even love cannot command the gods. He wakes with tears caught in his beard, with the ghost of a smile he cannot chase away. In every reflection he searches for him, in every echo he listens. The world calls it obsession, he calls it worship. For the living must go on breathing, but the heart, oh the heart can drown. Forever. So welcome to Hadrian, Possessed and Obsessed.

10:04Ooh, okay. Okay. Okay, Hange. Hange. Oh my god, so if you thought the Palace of Versailles was extra, I'm just so excited to like blow your mind with the extravaganza that is Hadrian's Villa. And have you ever, do you know anything about this story? No. Okay. Not at all. I don't know anything about this. Okay. I mean, it's been a while since we went into like ancient times, and I'm obsessed with like, I

10:39studied in Rome at one point, and I got to go to Tavoli, which is where Hadrian's Villa is, and I had never heard of him either. And then once you hear the story, and then once you hear the story, you're like, oh, it's so good. It's, yeah. So buckle the fuck up, grab your coffee or your wine if it's nighttime or daytime for you. Wait, we're not here to judge.

11:13Let's get into it. So A-S-L-A-X-O-C-A-T-I-N. Who are you? What do you like? What are you wearing? What's your sign? Oh, my God. So we're going to early second century CE, the high Roman Empire, baby. Yes. The Romans. Violence, blood, yes, beheadings. And we're going to Tavoli, Italy, just east of Rome, where emperors went to escape politics and, you know, do other things. Extracurriculars.

11:44So in second century Rome, life was basically one long toga party with extra steps. Senators were busy pretending to be serious while gossiping harder than a modern group chat. Gladiators were the original sports influencers, and everyone complained about the price of olive oil like it was rent in downtown Rome. And the baths were basically. We still do that. Oh, totally. It's like time goes on and nothing changes.

12:16Olive oil is still expensive. Hell of expensive. And the baths were like the social media of today. You went there to relax, brag about your latest conquest, and show off your new sandals and shit. Meanwhile, philosophers argued about the meaning of life while secretly hoping someone would pick up their tab at the wine shop and just being that annoying artist guy. So truly, the emperor was built on marble, ambition, and an alarming

12:52lack of hygiene, as you will all remember the poopy sticks from the Nero episode. Yes. Poop sticks. Poopy sticks. Like, they liked to bathe, but then it's like, oh, well, the sharing of that is probably not good. Bathing is good. Sharing your poop stick is bad. Sharing your poop stick. Your poop water stick is not good. It was A for effort, right? Better than the Middle Ages.

13:22Like, better than the Dark Ages, where they were just like, we're not showering at all. No, soap is for the devil. Yeah. That's devil's soap. What do you mean I have to soap? Yeah, that's like the modern day anti-vaxxers. Okay, so dad. Dad is Publius. Publius! Another Publius! Publius, alias Hadrianus Offer. And he was a wealthy senator. Yes. Mom. Poops. Poops. Domitia Paulina. She came from a rich, well-connected Spanish family.

13:52Cute. I know. And then, on January 24th, 76 CE, in Italica, it's like the font. Yeah. Near modern day Seville, Spain, Emperor Hadrian, also Publius Hadrianus, you know, six name man. The Poop! Was born, making him a hot, airy, totally my sign Aquarius. Yes. And he was such an Aquarius, oh my God. He's like a man that looked at the chaos of ruling the Roman Empire and was like, you know what

14:23this needs? Art. Yeah. Like, this is all fun. Yeah, this is the fun of it. Forget about conquering the world. We just want better architecture and emotional introspection. So like a true air sign, he built a giant wall across Britain, not just for defense, but because he needed boundaries. Ew. He traveled nonstop because staying in one place bored him to death. And he surrounded himself with artists and philosophers and probably gave cryptic advice that sounded profound, but maybe everyone else

14:57was like, what? Wow. It was so annoying. Which I know, we're annoying. We're Aquariuses. We're philosophical. We like to go deep, even though it feels kind of baseless. So anyways, let's talk about mom and dad. So not much to report on their relationships here. I mean, this is like thousands of years ago, so it won't come as any surprise. They all had affairs. There were so many affairs, so many mistresses that we did.

15:28It's so many that they couldn't even record it. Oh my God. Absolutely. Endless. Endless orgy session. So both of his parents died when he was like 10. Oh, yay. Bye. I mean, so no hot gossy facts about the death of their relationship, but it was pretty common to die in these ages of like disease, mild colds, a light breeze could like take anybody out. Diarrhea. You sniffed in the wrong direction. Yeah. So yeah, totally sucks and not the best running start for your

16:03boy with mom and dad dead at a young age. But dad being a wealthy senator does put him in a good position and young Hadrian was taken under the guardianship of Emperor Trajan. Okay. Who is either like his cousin or his uncle or his adopted relative, family tree, again, more like a Roman bush. Family. Some kind of family. Some kind of something. Yeah. And apparently, Trajan's wife, Plotina, adored Hadrian. Oh, thank you. Yeah. Like she might have been his like real life political fairy godmother, like a Kris Jenner

16:41sort of DLL situation. Oh, okay. She was always like smoothing things over for him and, you know, helping him out politically. And yeah, I mean, not that I'm a big like Kardashian fan, but I feel like you'd want a Kris Jenner on your side if you were that wealthy and famous, right? If you were like make me famous, she'd be like no problem. Like, but you have to, but she had, it's one of those where, but you have to do everything I

17:15say. And you're like, oh shit, what are you going to make me do? Well, so. You're going to be famous. I mean. Don't worry about it. And as you can imagine, he grows up well educated. He's like super into Greek culture, almost like obsessed. So much to the point that they nicknamed him Graculous or Little Greek, which was like half an insult, half foreshadowing, foreshadowing. They are going to Greece on Real Housewives of Salt Lake City and pretty soon.

17:47So we're sorry, Greece. We're sorry, Greece. We're so sorry. Oh my God. Yeah. We're so sorry to send the Mormons over there. This does not represent all of us. But fuck yeah. Greece is so cool. Hell yeah. So he's like super into it. And he did the usual Roman elite career climb, like military service, politics, schmoozing, et cetera. But he was more into philosophy and poetry and architecture than war and conquer the world sort of mentality.

18:17So he's like us. He's like war, war, war, war, war, war, war, whatever. Who cares? I just want to drink wine and, you know, talk about poetry and art and stuff. Look at erotic art. Yeah. That's totally his vibe. So he's growing up in a life of luxury and the fucking envy of everybody who knew him because he has the sweetest situation of having the emperor king as his like adopted dad. But here's where things get juicy and te and steamy tees.

18:50So let's go. Let's go. 17, seven, 117 CE. Okay. Emperor Trajan, the golden boy of Roman expansion is not doing so hot. He's out east in modern day Turkey trying to keep his empire running while also dealing with the inconvenient fact that his body is basically shutting down. He's in his early 60s, which is basically like the modern day 95. He's exhausted, sick, surrounded by people who are all way too interested in what's going to happen when he dies.

19:21Yeah. Because he had no official heir. And so at this point, he's chilling in Syria as governor. Hadrian is chilling in Syria as governor, super close geographically to where Trajan is dying. Trajan dies. Yeah. The story is that he peacefully passed away after naming Hadrian his adopted son and successor. Okay. Very convenient. Yeah. Almost too convenient. Oh. Because, yeah, the paperwork declaring Hadrian as the heir was supposedly signed by Plotina, Trajan's wife, after Trajan was already dead. Already dead.

19:52Or Beth, like, barely breathing. So people- It's like when, it's like when those, those ladies that marry the really old guy, he ends up dying before the wedding. So she's like, let's prop him up and like dress him up. He's alive. He's totally alive. He knows what- Well, and consenting to this. He knows what his decision is. He knows. He knows. Yeah. It's basically that. Yes. Yeah. I mean, and so people are like, wait, what? That's sketch. That's a little sketch. Yeah. That's sketch. I mean- What happened?

20:27Because all of the paperwork of like official adoption and making him heir are not in existence until he's literally dying. So you would have thought that like he would have done that maybe just like a little bit sooner right? Yeah. I would have hoped so if he wanted to do that, if that's what he wanted to do. Well, and the question then is raised, why did she do that? Why did she, why would she have done that? So the rumors suggest and the tea is that she was

21:02maybe possibly like in love with Adrienne. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Stepmom. Like in more than a stepmommy way. Yes. Uh-oh. And the other rumor is that like she's Kris Jenner-ing and wants complete control. Yeah. And so using him as like a puppet situation. She still wants to lead. Yeah. She still wants to lead for sure. I mean, so what do you do when you're a newly appointed Roman emperor with a fucking target on your

21:39back? You start killing people, of course. Okay. Yeah. So he tours the emperor and I mean literally every inch. He goes to Britain, Spain, Gaul, Greece, Asia Minor, all to check on things and to show that I'm not going to do what she says. I'm going to do what I want to do and I'm the boss now. So he goes around assessing loyalty, power structures, and also which tries to figure out which senators might be thinking,

22:16hey, maybe I should be emperor instead so he can fucking kill them. Okay. He's leaning into. He's ruthless. He's leaning to violence. He's rugged and he's messy. He's everything we love about Roman history. Yeah. So within. He's doing the thing. He's doing the thing. The gladiator thing. Let's go. Give me his head. Yes. Within months, he executed four senators who were supposedly, quote unquote, plotting against him.

22:48Okay. Historical sources are vague, but let's be real. This was a classic, like, remove the obstacles before they remove you. Right? Oh, yeah. It's American. It's American. It's American. It was ruthless. And when it came to consolidating power, but he also knew how to charm the aristocracy, mostly with public works, building projects, and a lot of Greek-flavored culture, enter the art part of the episode.

23:19Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's distracting them with art. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I hear some entertainment here. Oh, hello there, you beautiful creature. Looks like you can't get enough of the Baroque Bitches Art History Gossip Podcast. Do you want more Juicy Tea? Join our Patreon for exclusive access to bonus episodes, behind-the-scenes content, exclusive voting power, digital downloads, fun merch, and more. Become one of us.

23:51One of us. By going to patreon.com slash baroquebpodcast, or clicking the link on our website, baroquebpodcast.com, or clicking the link on our Instagram, at baroque.b.podcast. Thank you for your support. We couldn't do any of this stuff without you. We love you. So, enter the icon, the legend, the moment, Hadrian's Villa of Tivoli. Yes. Okay. Now, before we get into the actual villa, I want to get into the personal love life tea

24:26to give some context into this place. So, he meets a girl. Oh, it's a girl. And then a boy. Oh, it's a boy. Okay, so. Okay. Okay, okay, okay. So, Hadrian was officially married to Vibhia Sabina, the great niece of Trajan, sometime around 100 CE. She was elegant, intelligent, sophisticated, basically the perfect lady by definition of the time. And yet, according to the sources, her marriage to Hadrian was, well, like, not the best.

25:01So. It doesn't sound like maybe the best. Ancient writers make it sound like they kind of coexisted, like, definitely just a political marriage. It's political. Yeah. I have to be here because of our parent families. Yeah. Absolutely. Like, we're making, everybody thinks there's, like, this harmony, but on the inside, the insiders know. It's like, mm, I don't think that's not. It's not working out. Yeah. So, it's a thought that she apparently disapproved of all of his obsession with, like, architecture and poetry and

25:37his whims and obsessions. And he wasn't exactly emotionally available for her. Right. I mean, it's Roman times. Okay. And he's like, bitch, I'm going to do whatever the fuck I want. Yeah. So, their marriage produced no children. And it seems that Sabina often kept her distance from Hadrian's more eccentric impulses, shall we call them? Okay. No. This is where the tea really starts speaking. She's just, like, not even trying to be into his weird stuff.

26:10Like, mm, no. She wants somebody more pragmatic, like, more level-headed. He's too crazed and probably not really that into her. Yeah. I mean, and this is a perfect introduction for the boy. The boy. So. Who he really likes. Well, more than that. So, Hadrian would have met Antinous on his world tour. Antinous was said to be an impossibly beautiful young Greek from Bithynia. Oh, totally his type, too. Young and Greek. Young and Greek.

26:41So, here's kind of the gross stuff, though. So, he was in his late teens. Okay. Yeah, too young. Yeah, too young. Charming, intelligent, and gorgeous. Accounts suggest that Hadrian was immediately captivated by Antinous, and Antinous became his constant companion and confidant. They went everywhere together, traveled all over the empire, military campaigns, diplomatic tours, and, of course, Hadrian's sprawling villa in Tivoli. So, let's get into the villa. Yes. So, Hadrian's villa was the ultimate Roman power flex.

27:14This fucking place, this fucking place, was part palace, part playground, part gossip factory. Forget one nice mansion. Like, you gotta think way bigger than that. This fucking thing spreads across more than 250 acres. I don't even know what that means. It's like, I didn't even know what that is. It basically could be its own island. Yeah. Yeah. It had temples, theaters, and we're talking multiple. Temples, theaters, libraries, baths, and gardens. It looked like someone took Greece, Egypt, and Rome, threw them in a blender,

27:50and poured them out into, like, a marble chaos. Okay. Maximum. Yeah. Maximum. Absolutely. Think Pinterest board meets palace simulator meets telenovela. Every inch of the place screamed, yes, I am that emperor. He's just showing off. The world is yours. He's showing off what he can do. But beyond its sheer size, the villa was also a drama magnet. Senators, poets, philosophers all got invites, sometimes for politics, sometimes for parties, and sometimes for a little extracurricular injury.

28:22Yeah. Oh, there's sex dungeons in this thing. Oh, a million percent. He designs the space to impress and intimidate at the same time. So every statue and sight line was curated for maximum effect. Basically, like, an Instagram. It's totally Instagrammable place. Yeah. Yeah. He's doing the Louie thing. Floridors, lots of – yes, absolutely. Gossip, flirting, subtle power plays. Like, he would invite his enemies here, and they wouldn't know if it's like, are

28:53we going there for a party? Are we going there to be – Are we going to die here? Yeah, yeah. Like, are you going to Goodfellas me or what? Why are you – are we friends now? And we – dude, this guy is, like, blackmailing them. Like, he's, like, doing – oh, I already know this is Epstein Island type shit. Exactly. Exactly. That's exactly what it is. He even has, like, Egyptian-inspired canals, and he even builds a mini Nile

29:28within this place. He has sphinxes, islands for private dinners, and his love for Antinous seeped into the marble itself. So some rooms were designed specifically for the two of them to escape the public eye. Private baths, secret courtyards, candlelit corridors, perfect for poetry. Secret fucking glory hall. I mean, it was something else. And you can – so – I want to go. You can still go today. There's still ruins there that you can definitely go and see.

30:02It wasn't just a palace. It had art everywhere, blended into every corner of the gnome world. He was a total art nerd, a collector, designer, creative director, all in one. He filled the estate with sculptures, frescoes, mosaic, fused Greek idealism, Egyptian symbolism, Roman grandeur, into every top aesthetic. So he would have had, like, mosaics, frescoes. And so one of his sayings is, like, pointing to his villa is, behold, I understand beauty better than you ever will.

30:36Yeah, bitch. Okay. I believe you. I believe you. The villa sculptures were masterpieces of craftsmanship, many carved by Greek and Roman artists who were basically celebrity sculptures of their day. Most were made from imported marble, from Perian or pentelic stone that came all the way from Greece or Asia Minor. And these weren't, like, mass-produced garden statues. Each piece was meticulously chiseled, polished, and placed for dramatic effect. You can find statues of Apollo, Venus, Hermes, lounging by pools, basically, like, go hang out with all the gods.

31:15And here's the thing. There were countless representations of Antinous. So Hadrian's adobe, he just, like, put him everywhere. Okay. In every pose, from divine youth to Egyptian god, his face became the ultimate imperial logo, stamped across the villa like a love letter carved into stone. He's the prototype. He's the prototype of what y'all want to try to look like, this guy. Beyond sculpture, he also had mosaics and frescoes that brought the floors to life.

31:48Artists used tiny pieces of colored glass, stone, and tile to create sprawling geometric designs. They still have little evidence of what it would have looked like through small pieces. But, I mean, we're talking thousands of years ago. So there's not much left. In every space had a mood. One room might glow with scenes of Dionysian rivalry. Others hum with, like, intricate floral motifs. Maximalist, like we already said.

32:18Dude, I was so – when I was a kid, I thought, like, listen, one day for some reason I'm going to have a mansion for some reason. And every room is going to be a different theme. Like, I wanted, like, a safari room. We always have to have a safari room. Safari room. Like, tropical room. Like, English rose room. I blame, like, cribs. And also just – Yeah. Cribs. Designing scents. There was, like, a show in the 90s that I loved, Designing

32:54Scents, where they, like, they made the home look horrible after. Not one TLC show where they swapped houses and then did the DIY house mob. And they're, like, oh, my God, you painted my grandma's antique candlesticks blue. Or, like, why did you put hay on the wall? Like, oh, it's rustic. I was, like, no. It just looks like – This is going to be bad later. Like, this is going to attract bugs later. That's the vibe, though, of, like, I want my house to be

33:30different themes, like, different Disneyland rides. And, like, it'll be a future room. That's what I want. I get his vibe. I get his vibe. I mean, that's exactly what his vibe is. And I could just imagine the amount of, like, physical labor and money that went into this. Because he didn't stop when it's – once it was done, he kept remodeling every room based on his mood. So, you know, other emperors were very focused on expanding the emperor.

34:02And he was, like, could not care less. He just focused on building his mega fabulous fucking expansion palace. And then he also built a massive wall, almost like a border wall, to, quote, unquote, like, protect it. So – Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, I know what you're thinking, though. Like, okay, how is he getting away with just having this, like, very, very public lover? Like, what's the deal with all the sex stuff, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a totally – Yeah, I want to – I didn't want to say anything.

34:38I don't want to say that. But, like, that's what we're all thinking, right? Like, what? Like, so what's the deal? I mean, I think media totally over-dramatizes Rome as being this, like, sexual kind of – Orgy. Yeah, just constant orgy. Yeah, yeah. So, let's talk about it. So, he's married by – he's basically making this fucking shrine of his lover. What is Rome saying about all this? So, in ancient Rome, sexual relationships were entwined with power, social status, and

35:10public perception. Unlike many modern societies, the Romans cared far less about who you were fucking and far more about how you were fucking. So, when it came – So, when it came to marriage, there will be no surprise that the law almost always benefited the man and the free man. So, Rome might have looked sexually liberated, quote-unquote, on the surface, but only if you were a free-born male citizen with money and power. Everyone else, not so much. Everyone else was fucking traumatized.

35:43Oh, my God. I guess it's so bad. So, for starters, women were about as unliberated as you could get. A woman's sexual virtue, her pudicitia, was her entire identity, while men were praised for vertus, meaning courage and dominance. Married women had to be absolutely faithful, while their husbands could sleep with slaves, prostitutes, or concubines, and no one batted an eye. Yeah. It gets worse. So, slaves, male or female, had zero bodily autonomy. Their owners could do whatever they wanted to them, including in war, like, rape – they could rape them repetitively.

36:20Yeah. Yeah. And it wasn't considered a crime. But if you raped somebody else's slave, that was considered a crime because it was, like, you're violating somebody else's property. Yeah, it's my property. And the – Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Men. In war, rape was treated as a brutal but accepted consequence of victory. The Romans, being serial conquerors, were responsible for far more than their fair share. So, yeah, not exactly a sexy, candlelit version of Rome that HBO likes to sell us.

36:53No. And as for same-sex relationships, Romans didn't have a word for homosexual in the way we think of it today. Sex wasn't about gender. It was about power. So, social hierarchies mattered. An adult male citizen was expected to take a active, dominant role if involved with someone of lower status. So, like, a slave, a young man, or a prostitute. Probably a little boy kind of vibes. Exactly. Yeah. So, basically, if you were under 18, it was okay and

37:25socially acceptable for you to be penetrated, but after you became an adult-free male, a real man doesn't get penetrated. Oh, yeah, no, that totally makes sense, men. That totally makes sense, you guys. Yeah. He's like, let's micromanage your sexual activities. Oh, my God. What? What? Yeah. Or else then you're not a man. You guys make these rules. What? We didn't make these rules. You did it. This is what happens when things become completely patriarchal, and we can see this with shit with

37:59Rome all the time. It was one of the most patriarchal societies. Oh, my God. It starts getting too weird, you guys. It starts getting too weird. Yeah, and now we're headed right back towards this. So, a quote-unquote real man didn't get penetrated, didn't give oral sex, and definitely didn't act submissive, not even with women. So, sometimes even, like, being, like, a woman being on top would be considered them taking a dominant role.

38:30Yeah. Can't do that. Can't even have any fucking fun, you guys. Only missionary. Only this. Only this horror. With a man on top. I want you to be scared all the time. I was like, what, then why? What fun is that? That's not fun anymore. Dude. So. This is the shit I think about all the time. I, too, think of the Roman Empire as a woman, and it's silliness like this. Because this, it's, like, such, like, gratuitous laws. Like, you did not need to make these.

39:06You didn't need to make these. Imagine somebody saying, hmm, I know what we need to do, actually. We need to make a law. We need to, a man law. You can penetrate, but if you get penetrated, you're gay. What? You guys are all gay, okay? All of. If we just accepted it, we would have no issue here. Oh, my God. It's, like, ridiculous. So dumb. Okay, so when it came, while relationships like Hadrian and Antinus existed,

39:38they were socially acceptable only because Hadrian was emperor, and Antinus was lower status and foreign. And that made the dynamic, quote, unquote, Roman enough for people to politely look the other way and probably gossip about it behind closed doors. So Hadrian's relationship with Antinus fits neatly into this framework. Antinus was young, Greek, of non-elite status, occupied a socially, quote, unquote, appropriate role as the beloved companion of a powerful emperor. So basically, it's, like, because they're presenting as Hadrian.

40:10He's my slave. Don't worry about it. Well, and because they're presenting as Hadrian being, like, the dominant male in this relationship, it's fine. It's okay. So from a Roman perspective, it's not scandalous in itself. The elite often had young lovers and protégés. The key factors were Hadrian's power, Antinus' status, and how the relationship was performed in public. So Hadrian could publicly adore Antinus because he was the emperor, and his prestige, like, buffered

40:41any of the criticism. Yeah. So, okay. But it made for, like, just good entertainment for their people. Good TV, for sure. Yeah. I'm like, we like that. We like to be entertained. We're weird. Yeah. Totally. Okay. So now we're in 130 CE, and Hadrian is at the absolute peak of his emperor era, traveling through Egypt, living his best aesthetic life, probably journaling about marble angles and inner peace. And, of course, Antinus is right there beside him, still his companion, his muse, his everything.

41:16But by this point, Antinus wasn't just a fling. He was the emotional center of Hadrian's world. And the two of them have been traveling together for years, and people noticed, like, he's getting older. Antinus is getting older. I see. Okay. This is getting, like, too much of a real relationship. Well, and- Even though it was obviously a totally real homosexual relationship. Well, and it's like, you're okay to have a young male lover while they're a young, basically a child.

41:51Yeah. So what happens when Antinus is not a child anymore? And what happens when Hadrian- And a lot. So a few things happen, because this is- Okay. Okay. So. And Hadrian's also not doing so hot. Like, he's not feeling so well. And while they're traveling somewhere along the Nile, tragedy strikes. In October of 130 CE, Antinus dies. He drowns in the Nile. Just like that. What? Okay. Gone. And no one- Okay.

42:22No one really knows what happened. So. He was murdered. He was murdered for being too old. I have a few theories. I have a few theories. So the official story is, quote-unquote, an accident. Right. I'm sure, Jan. Right. Yeah. Okay. I'm sorry. Like, maybe he fell off a boat. The Nile's full of wild crocodiles, and not exactly made for, like, skinny dipping. So he probably just drowned, right? He got eaten. Yeah.

42:54Okay. There's also a theory that he may have unalived himself. Okay. He knew the heat was on him, and yeah. It was probably fucking stressful. Well, that, but also with Hadrian, I guess, not being in the best health state, it's thought that he may have made himself a human sacrifice to the gods to restore Hadrian's health. Because we're still in, like, weird- Okay. We're still in Roman times, right?

43:24You know, polychaic state. Yeah. Like, you know, human sacrifice-y times. Okay. Human sacrifice-y times. He was really religious and was like, listen, this human sacrifice, I got you. Yes. Okay. Sure. Others think that Antinus might have taken his own life, maybe because he saw his youth fading, and he felt trapped in the impossible role of being the emperor's divine boyfriend. So he, their thought is that maybe he didn't return the love and affection for Hadrian and was like, I

43:59am stuck. You're stuck. Yeah. And there's, I mean, it's an impossible situation if you don't love that back. Yeah, it is. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, and then the third theory is that he was murdered, der, der, der, der, der, der. Yeah. I think it was murdered. Yeah. I think he murdered him. He murdered him. So- And it's looking too weird politically at this point. Exactly. Yeah. So it's not that either Hadrian's political enemies or that maybe even Hadrian himself, like, may had- Yeah.

44:35Maybe sacrificed him. Yeah. So- Damn. Okay. I mean, whatever the truth is, Hadrian was devastated, like, full off the rails, heartbroken. This wasn't quiet or dignified mourning situation. He, like, lost it. Okay. He cried publicly. He commissioned endless amounts of statues. He made shrines. He didn't just grieve. He diified Antinus. Okay. Like, literally making him into a god. So he declared his lost love a god. Antinus the Divine and founded the city of Antinopolis near the site of his death.

45:11Damn. And he, like- He's just like, if you don't make me a city, listen. He basically, like, he has him sculpted as every single god from Dionysus to Osiris, like, to his straight-up own demigod. That makes me feel like he didn't kill him, then, if he's so obsessed with him. I mean, that maybe he did. It could have been. And maybe he's, like, living out his guilt or something. Yeah. Maybe he's guilty. Or it could have even been, like, if he was going to be murdered, it was

45:48one of somebody from his party that was, like, listen, you can't be with this older man anymore. You got to find a new little lover because it's looking too weird. And then they threw him in the river or killed him or whatever. Maybe. Maybe. I don't know. Now I'm, like, fuck. I know. It could be anything. Historians do not agree on what happened. Oh, I get it. I get it. I'm right there with you.

46:20We usually don't agree with this story. But we can't agree to not agree on this. I definitely feel like it gets, like, either the self-sacrifice or the murdered makes the most sense to me. Or he was just gotten eaten by a fucking crocodile. Or it was just, I mean, the sensationalist in me cannot vibe with that. Like, it has to be something more dramatic. Yeah, yeah. So he also had his face put on temples, coins, fountains.

46:53There was a cult created. People genuinely worshipped him for centuries. Dude, if you don't start my own, if I die and I don't get my own religion. This is literally, I think, like... Yeah, put this on the list of things that I need after I die. It's, like, ever-expanding. Dismemberment, putting you into, like, a sand. What do they call that? A Ouija board. Yes, yeah. Make my ashes into jewelry. A weekend that burnies you.

47:25A lot of things with my bones. And then I also want my own religion. Okay, noted. I'll let Alex know. He can deal with it. He can deal with it. Yeah. Hell yeah. Oh, man. He loved this guy so much. He loved so much. Okay. He rocked his world, this guy. And so after... So, and this, like, obviously changes him. He becomes, like, almost like a hermit. He retreats into himself. He's melancholic. And his later years are marked by illness, paranoia, and pain.

48:01So his health starts to decline. He suffers from chronic dropsy, which is, like, a fluid retention disease, which you're, like, swollen and uncomfortable. Yeah. And even as his body fell apart, his architectural and cultural obsessions kept going strong. He finishes massive projects like the Pantheon's Reconstruction, which is still one of the most iconic buildings on Earth. And the Temple of Venus in Roma, which is a big ode to the beauty and empire.

48:32Yeah. So politically, things got messy. He'd once been this philosopher king, but now he turned more authoritarian. He executed more senators he thought were plotting against him and got increasingly cranky about succession. So he adopted one heir, then changed his mind and, like, took it back. And then he adopted another heir and then changed his mind. Oh, God. I know. So he gets, like, that guy. Yeah. So it was, like, a dynastic version of a nesting doll.

49:05So there's, like, Marcus Arolius and Lucius Ferris. He eventually does adopt. By the time he hits his 60s, he was basically just, like, this cranky, crazy, brokenhearted dad living between his villas, staring at the stars, and occasionally snapping at the Senate. And he spent his final years super depressed, often wishing for death, but refusing to give up control, and even tries to unalive himself several times. But his attendants always stop him.

49:36So classic emperor behavior. Yeah. Wants to dry dramatically, but only on his terms. And finally, on July 10th, 138 CE, he dies at his villa in Baye on the Bay of Naples, the glamorous Roman retirement spot. His ashes were placed in a grand tomb on the banks of the Tiber River, which still stands today as Castle St. Angelo in Rome. Okay. So, yeah. It's, like, a huge fortress, and that's his tomb.

50:07So, in the end, Adrian left behind an emperor at peace, a villa that stands out, like, fucking crazy. Probably more famous at the time than the Love Island Villa. I couldn't stop thinking about the Love Island Villa. Like, cause some more. So, yeah. Still, people still talk about his, most of his heartbreak, and like I said, you can still go and see this sprawling fucking villa dedicated to Antonis. Yeah. So, that's Adrian. Damn. Good one. Good Rome. It's always fun to go back to Rome.

50:43Rome is so fun. Yeah. Yeah, it's always fun. And it's, like, foreshadowing, foreshadowing, you guys, like, really high. Okay. I know. It's November 4th, so do your thing. Go vote. Yeah. Yeah. So, person at the party. Who is he? Okay. So, this one was, like, too. In my opinion, it was, like, a little too easy. Just because Donald Trump is, like, trying to do this makeover situation with the White House right now.

51:14Yeah. And it's just all too, like, reminiscent. Like, the building of the border, of the wall, using all the funds to just make a giant, giant masturbatorial, like, ode to your reign. Yeah. Like, having people killed, doing whatever you want, not listening to anybody, obsession with yourself. And, basically, I mean, it feels very Mar-a-Lago, right? Building this villa. Totally. Yeah. It's, like, look how rich I am. I was wondering when we'd finally have Donnie in here as

51:48guy at the party. This is a good guy at the party. I mean, obviously, one's more artistic and philosophical, and one's quoting Greek philosophers, and the other one's just quoting himself. But the vibes are pretty identical. Both men could walk into a room and instantly make it about them. Hadrian would recite poetry while secretly judging your sandals. And Trump would brag about crowd sizes while misspelling covfees. Have you seen the guy that, he's some Instagram, like, I wish I knew all these people's names.

52:24I know. Some Instagram guy that's, like, if Donald Trump was just a drag queen like he's supposed to be, he would be so good. And so he, like, has Donald Trump, like, talking. Do AI. No, and he does the voice, and he's, like, this fabulous drag queen. And it's, like, he was supposed to be a drag queen this whole time. It was, like, Hitler in art school. I'm, like, you were supposed to get into this, dude.

52:57You would have been great at this. Oh, it's getting, it's getting. It's getting wild. And I. It's getting goofy. Getting crazy. And I feel, like. Dark, dude. I feel like both of these guys have this, like, horror, like, this horrible quality where everybody will tell them their opinion. And they'll still only just believe in themselves. Yeah. They'll believe it. And the definitely, like, getting rid of senators, getting rid of world leaders.

53:27Like, that is definitely falling in line with kind of something that's going on here. Like, getting increasingly patriarchal. Like, you know where this goes, you guys. I mean, we've, we see really what happens with these patriarchal societies in places like the Middle East and Afghanistan and stuff like this. Where this is happening. This is starting to happen now. Yeah, we're, we're taking, we're going to, because women are locked away, we're going to be doing this stuff with

54:01little boys. You guys, like. It's a lot of time, you guys. And I know all of you guys. Yeah, no. I didn't want to go down the rabbit hole. I just thought, like, it's so. I know, and it's hard for me not to go down the rabbit hole. It's hard for all of us not to. When we mention our president. But this one, I thought, was just funny because. Well, it's just, yeah.

54:32And literally, if he was here today, I feel like this is exactly what would happen. Yeah, yeah. And I think even, even Donnie himself would have probably agreed that he's like this guy. I don't know. Yeah, except, yeah, I don't know. Well, maybe, probably because he, like, wants to be a world conqueror emperor. He wants to be a feared and president and eventually move to Argentina, like we all know. And all this stuff. I mean, I go, I'm down in the holes right now.

55:08I'm trying not to be, I'm trying to be cool on the pod. And there's definitely some side-eyeing between Donnie and his wives, so. Oh, that's all fun stuff. That's all stuff I need to know a lot harder. Oh, my God. So. Good one. Good one. Good guy at the party. We got to have him as a guy at the party. Oh, you have to get it out of the way. Yeah, yeah. No, good one. Okay. Well, we've got some fun stuff coming up pre-Thanksgiving.

55:44We've got, yeah, we can, we were thinking about getting back into Friendsgiving. Yes. Possibly getting done to some indigenous art on Patreon to celebrate not Columbus Day. Yeah. Anti. Not fucking Columbus. We're going to celebrate indigenous peoples on Patreon for show. Absolutely. And lots of, okay, some, some fun artists coming up for November for you guys that are, that's going to be really intense. So get into it. Get on Patreon if you can.

56:16If not, that's chill. That's chill. Totally fine. Chill, chill, chill, chill, chill, chill, chill, chill, chill. Let's chill. Just keep listening. Well, we love you. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.