Alice Neel: The Soul Collector!

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0:11This is Raquel and Chelsea, and you're listening to Baroque Bitches. Welcome to Baroque Bitches, your art and art history gossip podcast. I'm Raquel. I'm Chelsea. We're back, babe. It's here.

0:42It's January. Yes, it's like the tail end of January. 2026. But we're doing it. Hello.

0:52Life is life-ing. Despite life-lifing and government's government-ing-ish. Oh, my God. Yeah, we're not going to think about it right now. We're going to take it out of our world. And files not exposed-ish and all that good stuff. We're still here. We're still talking about art history. We're still here, even though we kind of took a little holiday break. Thanks for being patient. Spent some time with the fam. We de-stressed. We got some stuff on Patreon. Yes.

1:22And I've still got my, like, health journey stuff going on. And so I follow this dad on Instagram who takes care of his daughter with a traumatic brain injury. Because I, like, of course, have to, you know, do that. Yeah. And his daughter- You got to look at the parents. Well, his daughter has this quote that's like, you have so many problems until you have a health problem. And then you have one problem. Totally. It's like, fuck. This is, like, taking over my entire life. I have no idea what's wrong with me. So- True. You don't know what's wrong with you.

1:52I'm so sorry. And you're not alone. You're not alone. Not alone. So I've been weird for, like, the past couple of days because I saw this movie. Uh-oh.

2:06Don't do that. I saw Hereditary. No. Is that with Toni Collette? Oh, you know I don't know the names of people. They're amazing actors. Oh, my God. Amazing. Everyone was an amazing actor in that. And, oh. I mean, if you guys know, I'm like, okay, I need to watch scary movies like Crack of Dawn. Like, I have sleep problems. So I get up at, like, usually 2, 3 in the morning. And I'm like, okay, what do I do?

2:38Obvious choice. Watch the scariest movie you can find. Everyone's been telling me to see this movie. Oh, psychological thriller. For sure. Yeah. Let's get into it. And then I'm, like, audibly gasp. As Alex sleeping by. He's like, you okay? I'm like, no. No. I'm actually not okay. I'm not okay. And so I've been, like, feeling a little icky all week. Like, of it is, it does, you know, say to how amazing the movie is of how viscerally affected I've been for the last few days.

3:14That's, like, when I watched Inception and it ruined my life for, like, three weeks.

3:19Totally. Totally. When you're just, like, I need to just go. I need to go take a walk. Like, I just need to, like, clear my head. No, I'm, like, banned from psychological thrillers. Like, I can't do a psych thriller anymore. Memento. No, you're not allowed to watch that one. Oh, my God. Absolutely not. But, yeah. No, it is Toni Collette. And I love her. And I wish I liked scary movies more. Because, oh, my God. This would fuck you up, yeah. I'm also coming as not a parent.

3:51So I think this would affect parents a lot more than non-parents, for sure. Like, 100%. It would affect parents a lot more. But it's, like, oh, God. Like, the whole time.

4:05Like, the whole time. We're good. We're good. We don't need to watch it. Absolutely not. Yeah. No, you can't watch it. But that has been fucking me up. So if you know, you know. Yes. And, yeah. I just, I remember, like, going into a party. I went to a party the other day. And it was, like, how are you? I'm, like, I'm not okay after watching this movie. And they're, like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yep, yep, yep, yep. Totally understand. No, I love that. I'm not okay. No niceties. We're just going to tell you how it is in 2026.

4:36Listen. Yeah, yeah. I like it. I like going forward. Listen. Tell. If someone asks you how you're doing. That should be your New Year's resolution. Fucking blatant honesty. No more sugarcoating. That's it. Yeah. Talk about stuff. Well, I mean, speaking of somebody who is truly outspoken in, like, the best way possible.

5:02Do you want to do it? I'm so excited for this one. I'm so excited. Okay. It's so good. Brought to you by your Patreon listeners. Yes. You guys can't do this. Suggested, voted on. If you want voting rights, got to join the Patreon. Okay. Let's do it. Let's visualize. Let's visualize. Ooh. I'm a soul collector.

5:41Not in the way stories warn you about. I don't steal breath or shorten lives. I collect the way a lens collects light. By being open. By staying still long enough for something true to pass through me. I am empty when no one is here. Not lonely, just unlit. A vessel without a current. I move through the world waiting for a moment. A human forgets to protect themselves. That's when it happens. A pause.

6:12A crack. A story told without polish. A feeling that slips out before it can be revised. When a soul enters me, I ignite. I feel full, purposeful, and alive. Their story presses against my edges. Their grief. Their humor. Their small, private courage. I do not judge it. I arrange it. I give it shape so it can be seen. This is my art. This is how I appreciate humanity. By holding it carefully while it reveals itself.

6:44But souls are not meant to stay. As I hold them, they thin. Not from harm, but from honesty. Being seen costs something. When they leave, they leave lighter. And I remain marked. Imprinted with their outline, their tone, the way they occupied space. These traces are what I live on. They fuel me forward. I empty again. I always do. And still, I keep collecting. Not because I'm greedy, but because humans deserve to be witness.

7:16Because their stories want form. Because for a moment, inside me, they are held without interruption. That moment is enough to keep me alive.

7:41So, welcome to Alice Neal, the soul collector. Soul collector. Good one. Dude. Okay, this one was like a really ethereal experience for me. I always knew I liked Alice Neal's work. But I just like never did a hyper fixation. It getting it knee deep into like her stories and her interviews and stuff. And when you start watching clips of her, you cannot stop. It's like something's been untapped within me with Alice Neal.

8:15And it's like an obsession. A neuro spicy fixation. And super, super relevant today, too, with Trump attacking New Deal initiatives. Oh, my God. So, that's a fun thing. Oh, yay. He doesn't sleep. He doesn't sleep, guys. Oh, my God. He's coming for us. Still coming for us. Can we just get a day? One day. So, super, super relevant artist today. Absolutely. Who I'm so excited. I don't know much about her besides I've seen her paintings. Oh, my God.

8:46I love her so much. It's so good. But, like, lower your expectations. Like, take the pressure off of me for a second. It's fine. It's fine. It's fine. It's fine. It's fine. Okay. Okay. Okay. Let's get into it. So, I'm going to give you some context. Let's set the scene. Where are we going? How are we feeling? What modes of transportation were available? Well, we're going to the early 1900s in America.

9:17And as you can imagine, this was just, like, a lot at this time. A lot. America, you know, the industrial, noisy, smoky thing. All the while being deeply convinced that hard work and emotional repression would solve everything. That, like, mentality is still destroying us. So, this was a time when factories were booming. Child labor was something, somehow consider, like, character building. And the concept of work-life balance was a faint whisper from a kid who looked like he could star in Oliver and then was immediately punished in a very, you would go to jail by today's standards kind of way.

9:58Except maybe not right now. God, it's such bad times we're in. Okay. We're just flipping around. Back to the 1900s, you guys. I know you love it. Oh, my God. You loved it. You loved it. So, Pennsylvania, specifically, was industrial America in its final boss form. There's, like, railroad workers, coal mines, steel mills. The Pennsylvania Railroad wasn't just a job. It was a lifestyle, a personality, and a moral compass. So, the social roles were really tight.

10:31Children were meant to be seen, not heard. Women, polite and patient. Men were allergic to emotions beyond mild satisfaction and suppressed rage. Clothing was very layered, heavy, wildly impractical, suggesting that society believed suffering was an important fashion accessory. And if you were comfortable, you were probably doing something wrong. Like, nasty. Yeah. So, we're still in corset era.

11:01Yeah. That looked like medieval punishment clothing. Yeah. Men wore hats at all times. Probably even in bed. I do, like, don't mind that. I kind of like the hat culture. The only thing I want back is the hat. The hat. Like, not like the ball cap, like the tall hats. Like a hat. Like a top hat. Like a magician vibe. Totally. Totally. And presumably, like, bare heads were supposedly scandalous.

11:31Which, like, if you've got it, flaunt it. Fabian. So, on a side note, Fabian recently told me about bald reddit. And it's for, it's reddit for balding. Oh, I need to know what happened. Yes. Okay. So, this is a total sidetrack. But bald reddit is, like, a safe space for, you know, people, men, women, who are losing their hair. Losing their hair. Yeah. And you can go on there and post pictures of yourself and be like, is it time? Like, should I, you know, should I shave it? It's time. And people are, like, very supportive in this community.

12:02And we'll be like, no, no, you're still looking good. Or, like, come join us, one of us. Yeah. Nobody that loves you would say, no, no, no, no, it's fine. It's fine. Keep it. And, like, and it's all about, like, bald appreciation. Like, you're hot. You, like, you're going to love it here on this side. Like, come on over. Nothing against the baldness. The baldness. No. Yes. But.

12:28So, back then, obviously, even hot baldies would have had to wear a hat. Because it's literally, it's too sexy. It's too hot. It's too sexy. Yeah. The bald head. That's like a preview. That's like a preview. What's going on downstairs? Yes. Aye. Aye. Oh, my God. I love that. I got to get on bald Reddit. Get on bald Reddit. Okay. So, the world was full of strict rules. Sit up straight. Don't talk back. And absolutely do not suggest that women might want careers or opinions.

13:00So, naturally, we need a disruptor. Yes. To be born. So, enter Alice Neal. Yes. So, age. Sex. Location. So, 1900.

13:13Sex. Woman. Tragic for the time. Iconic for history. Location. Pennsylvania. Anyway. Yeah. So, dad. Daddy. Dad is George Neal. He worked for the Pennsylvania Railroad. Steady job. Strong sense of duty. Probably smelled a lot like cold dust. You know. Definitely not getting warm and fuzzies from dad. Hard working. Blue collared. Rough hands. He doesn't get it. Rough hands. Mom.

13:44Mom. So, mom is Alice Concross Hartley Neal. Oh. She's a former school teacher who had given up her career after she got married. As you do. As you do. That's the time we're in. Yeah. Extremely the vibe. And so, and then Alice Neal is born January 28th, 1900. Oh, my gosh. She's literally my spirit animal. Yes. We're going to say it's tomorrow. It's tomorrow. Wish I had my birthday. Happy my birthday. If you're an Aquarius, you get it.

14:16Not a lot of people get us, but when they do, they really do. Oh, you hang on tight to those Aquarians. We're weirdos. They'll let you know. Yes. We don't hold anything back. Aquarius is how big I see through society and don't like what I see energy. Independent, contrarian, and completely uninterested in behaving like we're supposed to. Yeah. No. Absolutely not. They don't do that. They don't do that. Don't tell them to do that. They don't like it. No. No, absolutely not.

14:48There's like this video that Fabian loves to show me, and it's, oh, God.

14:57Oh, fuck. I'm going to have to cut this out. It's in Spanish, and it's like, if you know how I get, why'd you invite me? Yeah. Like, just don't invite me. You know how I am. And it's just like, is there no growth or development? No. No. No, this is how I am. No, this is how we are. Take us how we are. Don't invite us to the party unless you're ready for that sort of energy, because we don't give a fuck. So, yes.

15:27Alice Neal was born in 1900 in Marion Square, Pennsylvania, into a family that was not ready for her. And she grew up in a house where practicality reigned supreme. Stability was the goal. Creativity was confusing. And art was not discouraged in, like, a dramatic villain way, but it was also not nurtured with enthusiasm. More like, that's nice, nice, dear, but, like, how are you going to turn this into, like, money? Yeah. So, her relationship with her parents, especially with her mother, is, like, complicated.

16:01There was love, but also distance, tension, and a lot of internalized misogyny just, like, floating around the house, like, a toxic sense. And us Aquarians, even though we don't give a fuck, we are incredibly sensitive. So, it's, like, confusing. Yeah. Even though we don't present as such. Well, you pick up on the vibes. You pick up on vibes more than anything. I was like, who never said that? And he's like, he vibed it. I vibed it. He vibed it. I know you didn't say it. Okay. But your aura is telling me otherwise. Your aura is, like, screaming at me, dude.

16:34I think about that scene from Friends when Ross just finds out that his ex-wife Carol's a lesbian, and Phoebe, like, starts cleaning his aura, and he's like, no, stop. Don't clean my aura. I'm, like, always cleaning the aura. That's how I feel. So, so, she's letting all of this simmer inside of her. These expectations are placed on her to do her role as a female. She's quiet, introverted, and, like, hella observant. Very smart, and very much, I need to get the fuck out of this situation.

17:05So, she goes to the Philadelphia School of Design for Women, now known as Moore College of Art and Design, which is basically where artistic women were allowed to exist as, like, a treat. Not as, like, a, oh, you're going to be a real, like, professional artist. Yeah. As, like, you can come here. You'll have fun. We guess. Yeah. Until you get married, you'll have fun. But it was one of the few respectable places a young woman could study art without everyone panicking about what her morality was.

17:37And Alice, for the first time, is surrounded by other women who are serious, talented, and also low-key pissed about their limited options. So, she's very serious. She learns anatomy, drawing, composition. And she's fucking locked in. And this is where she realizes art isn't just emotional expression, it's labor, craft, something you have to work very hard for. Which honestly fits perfectly with her, like, industrial railroad child upbringing.

18:08Same discipline, different output. So, after graduating, she does the next logical step for women artists in 1920s, and she goes to the one, the baddie, the big times, New York. New York. New York. She's like, let me get all nasty up in this bitch. Yes. You have to, especially from Philly. You're going to New York. Come on. What are you doing? She wants to lose the proprietary concern. She wants to live a raw, unfiltered life.

18:41And this city is chaotic, alive, full of ideas, and significantly less concerned about whether you're being, like, ladylike. So, she enrolls at the Art Student League, where she studies under Robert Henri, leader of the Ashcan School, patron saint of painting regular, messy, real people. And this is huge for her, because his whole philosophy is basically, like, stop idealizing. Start looking. Paint life as it is.

19:12And Alice's, Neil's brain is like, say less. Yes. I got this. Finally, someone on my level. Yeah, didn't he write, he wrote The Art Spirit, I think. And that was very, like, hippy-dippy, like, just let it be, let it flow, let a brushstroke flow. Oh, it's not as strong, like, that kind of a thing. And we're in, like, the 1920s. So, it's very much not, like, super in vogue to be painting, like, people in any sort of,

19:43like, real way, right? Photography's here. Photography's here. She's queer.

19:50But, yeah. And I bet there was questions about that, of are we painting portraits anymore since we can photograph portraits? What are we doing? Since we can photograph, what are we doing? We're still figuring it out. Yeah. And then it happens. Because, of course, it does. She meets a boy. Boy. Boo. Ew. Ew. Oh, no. Yucky. Okay. Here's this guy. Oh, God. It's sad. Okay. So, in 1925, Alice marries Cuban artist Carlos Enriquez.

20:25Ooh. So, you can look up this painting, Carlos Enriquez, Alice Neel paintings. You'll find it'll come right up. A lot of her works are titled by The Sitter. And so, if she painted them more than once, it's, like, it's kind of, yeah. Oh, very sexy. Okay. So, listen. This relationship was insane. Okay. I mean, it's everything you think it would be. It's passionate, artistic, dramatic, absolutely unhinged. Yeah. And I love, like, if you listen to interviews by her, she'll be like, well, I was a very

20:58good-looking girl. I'm like, yes, honey, you were. You are. And so, of course, this, like, hot, sexy dude comes in. Gorgeous. Two intense creatives. He's also a painter. They're both very young, very emotional, very allergic to stability. And they move between New York and Havana, Cuba, where he's from. Living that early 20th century avant-garde life. That's so cool. Right? Yeah. That's so cool. It's, like, everything feels so important.

21:29Nobody has any money. So, basically, like, college for you and me. Totally. Yeah. And Alice is deeply in love, deeply committed, and deeply not prepared for how this is so not the business and not what we want for our girl at all. So, this marriage matters because it's Alice's first taste of freedom and devastation. So, buckle up because this gets brutal. Oh, God. So, look. Don't fuck around with hot guys. Yeah, no.

22:00I mean. These ones. Not these ones. Okay. He's too cute. It's too bad. So, look up Well Baby Clinic 1928, and just, like, let's have this in the back of our minds as we're going through the story. So, when I say buckle up, I mean seatbelt, helmet, emotional support beverage. You're going to need all of them. Unless you're doing dry January and, like, a nice green tea. Maybe something relaxing. Cam and meal. But get something because this takes a hard left turn into tragedy.

22:32Okay. So, Alice and Carlos are doing the whole transnational bohemian thing. New York, Havana vibes, drama, no money, lots of feelings. And in 1926, Alice gives birth to her first child, a daughter named Santiana. And for a brief, brief moment, it looks like maybe this will all stabilize things. She's a mother. She's painting. Things are going well. She's trying to hold it together. And then reality said, absolutely not. Santa Nia dies of diphtheria before she even turns one.

23:04And just like that, gone. Oh, okay. Oh, shit. I mean, there's no way to, like, overstate how devastating this was for Alice. Like, she's shattered completely. And the loss cracks something open her in her that never fully closes again. And if that weren't enough, Carlos, already unstable and pulling away because he's dealing with it, and however he can, becomes increasingly distant.

23:35He comes from a very wealthy Cuban family. And they're kind of like, we don't understand what you're doing with this lady. Like, we don't. Like, why? Oh, my God. Okay. So he's just, like, not even. I'm like, dude, I'm trying to mourn. Your family's being weird. Yeah. Can we do this together? Well, I guess worse. So then they have a second daughter, Isabetta, in 1928. And you think, okay, maybe, like, we're healing the daughter. We got this. We got this. We have our baby.

24:06Yeah, rainbow baby. And we're on the up and up. No. But instead of this bringing them back together, it accelerates their departure from one another. Okay. Carlos leaves Alice and takes Isabetta with him. No. Yes. Yeah. Oh, different. Okay. No toxic shared custody. No gentle transition. Just abandonment with a capital A where I'm taking the baby. Steals your baby.

24:36Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Yeah. So. What the? Okay. Different. If you look at the painting, you can see babies being changed all over the place. Faces just riddled with anxiety. The whole scene just looks very intense and chaotic. But then you zero in on a mother and her child on the front left. And this child is noticeably gray compared to the other babies. Presumably the daughter she lost. Already we can see her ability to capture the complex nature of raw dog in life. It's intense.

25:07She gets it. And she has the capability of communicating it visually. Yeah. Yeah. This painting is horrific. It's horrible. So if you're on Patreon, we're going to show you the painting. Yeah. And we're going to react to it. But like, yeah, it's horrific. So now Alice is in New York alone grieving one dead child and then, like, also grieving being forcibly separated from her other child. She's broke, isolated, and emotionally obliterated. And, I mean, she wouldn't have had, like, very much recourse.

25:41Mothers were not, like, awarded custody at this time. That's not how it worked. Men were decision makers. And this is where her mental health just, like, absolutely nosedives. She spirals into a deep depression, attempts to unalive herself, and is hospitalized in a psych ward multiple times. Multiple times this happened. She was in and out, in and out, health care, mental health. So, and you know the 1920s, it's not, like, now, where it's, like, yoga, medication, nice retreat.

26:12No, this is, like, we're going to electric. We're seeing if you need to lobotomize you. Yeah, lobotomy. Will that help for your manic stuff? Oh, my God. I just had a thought about Mad Men, and I'm not going to bring it up. This is gross. 2026, no Mad Men references. No Mad Men references. Okay, but this period in her life is so important, because she's already interested in painting. She can't stop. And now she has these experiences, and she observes.

26:44She absorbs the pain, injustice, vulnerability, and power dynamics. This period imprints itself permanently into her work. The rawness, the refusal to sanitize suffering, the deep empathy for people living on the margins. This is not theoretical for her anymore. This is lived. And she's obsessed with painting. She feels like she can't stop something she has to do. It's not a choice. She sacrifices everything to keep her craft going through all this drama and throughout the rest of her life.

27:19So we'll see that as a constant theme. So she finally gets out of this fucking hospital in September 1931. After nearly 13 months of enforced rest, once she's released back into the wild, she promptly reinserts herself into her old social orbit, reconnecting with her friend Nadia Oljanova. And Nadia's Norwegian merchant marine husband, Egil Hoy, I'm destroying these names, now tucked away in sleepy Stockton, New Jersey.

27:50Okay. Naturally, because Alice's life never calms the fuck down, it was during one of these visits that she meets Kenneth Doolittle, a sailor. I have lived through Fleet Week in San Francisco. Giant red flag. I know, but the uniforms work for me. Yeah, no, they do something. Yeah, they do something to you. It's like, what? I don't agree with any of this. What is the uniform doing to me? I don't understand. Why do I feel these feelings? Yeah.

28:20Yeah, no, giant red flags. Me and Alice just connected. So, but Kenny was another problem, another walking red flag, like you said. Yeah, yeah. Doolittle had joined the merchant marines at 16, and somewhere between ports, picked up communism like a souvenir bag. So, except for him and for Alice. Okay. By early the following year, Alice and Kenneth were playing house in a Cornelia Street apartment in Greenwich Village, then the beating heart of Bohemia, where everyone was poor, brilliant, half-drunk, deeply convinced of their own importance.

28:56That's the vibe. It's like cafes buzzing, bars overflowing. Poor, drunk. Yes. You think you're the best. It's like the Jackson Pollock time, you know? Totally. I love it. That's the vibe. I want to go there for a day. Absolutely. Just take me back. We probably hate it. I'd be like, oh, thank God. Oh, thank God. We do not live in that time. Okay. Alice knew perfectly well that Doolittle came with issues. The biggest one being a drug habit and a jealousy streak, wide enough to qualify as a whole-ass personality disorder.

29:32Yeah. Yeah. So, she said, I lived with a sailor, a rather interesting chap, nice enough except that he liked dope. He had a coffee can full of opium. A coffee can full of opium. Damn. Actually sitting around their apartment like you do. I mean, Alice, come on. He's learned some stuff on the sea. I mean, Alice is like fresh off a nervous breakdown. And she's like, oh, yeah, this guy.

30:03This is the one. So, her picker is broken. I get it. Yeah. Aquarius, as we go for interesting people sometimes, stay away. Don't do it. Have fun with them. Yeah. No, don't take them out. Don't live with them. Don't live with that. They have a giant coffee can full of opium. Don't live with them. I think one of her things and Aquarius, we fall into this trap is like she wants to experience life unfiltered. Do it for the plot. Do it for the plot. Do it for the autobiography.

30:35Yeah. Do it for this moment right here. She knows he's bad. Give them something to talk about. Yeah. She knows he's bad. He is bad with a capital B. It gets so much worse. Okay, so he's just like on opium with opium people and friends. Yeah. Yeah. Getting high. Yeah. Okay. In May of 1932, Alice showed work at the Washington Square Outdoor Art Exhibit. Essentially like an art fair surrounded out, like founded out of desperation by Jackson Pollock,

31:06who was broke and hoping passerbys might buy something, anything. Alice exhibited Well Baby Clinic. And at the same exhibition, she meets John Rothschild, you know, the family. So Harvard educated, independently wealthy, immediately. That are still in charge of everything. He loved her work. He invited her and Doolittle over for drinks and quietly positioned himself as like, hey, I'm Mr. Reliable. I'm your savior. In this disaster situation. So back at Cornelia Street, the Neil Doolittle relationship was not going great.

31:43It's reaching like an operatic climax. So in December 1934, Doolittle just goes fucking crazy in a jealous frenzy and destroys roughly 60 paintings. Not her work. And 200 works on paper. Yeah. He also burns her clothes, bringing the whole like go big or go home vibe of terrible men to a whole other level. Alice later recalls fleeing the apartment in fear for her life.

32:13Totally. Describing the episode as an act of pure male domination, less about another man and more about her art daring to exist without his permission. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. That's when they go for the work, man. I've heard my shit. Just like not this stuff. Not this corner of the house. But it brings up the question of like, are you jealous of John? Are you jealous of like my like my dedication? Yeah. Yeah. Well, being with an artist, like a true artist, you have to make space for their obsession

32:44with art. Yeah. They're not normal. Like they can't do that. They can't turn it off. They have to be like, wake up at 3 a.m. like Chelsea does and make work and shit like that. Yeah. And you just have to be okay with it because you. And you're fine. We don't bother you. We don't understand that. Yeah. We're not going to bother you. We're just going to be in our little cave and don't worry about it. Yeah. Yeah. But some people can't handle it. They can't handle, you know, that sitting in the room.

33:14They can't be a third wheel to art. I think too, when you're in these kind of communities, it's like, oh, how, how much more dedicated to my craft am I in than you? Or like, are, are you threatened by my talent? Or like, are you just threatened that I spend time with this thing? I feel like he might be more stimulating than you are. Oh my God. And the male ego at this time is like insane. So I'm sorry that I'm stimulated by something else. That's not a human.

33:45That's like coming from my own self. Yes. Yeah. And they hate that. They hate that. Well, the good ones are totally chill with that and they don't even care at all. But the bad ones will always have some kind of, oh, you're working on yourself. Oh, okay. Okay. And give you little comments and make it feel weird. And yeah. Stay away from it. Well, the bad ones are always going to try and separate so that they control. Your entire life. And he clearly cannot handle it. So. Yeah.

34:15So Alice is like homeless after this and shaken clearly. And she turns to Rothschild. So exactly what you didn't want. Do little. You drove her to the other dude. Yeah. Bye. Bye. This guy will actually fucking fund my shit, dude. Oh my God. But this one actually is funny. So his parents help bankroll her living situation. John's still married with children to another lady.

34:46But he's like obsessed with Alice. He can't. He's like. He wants something serious. And Alice is like. You're like healthy. Like a healthy amount of in love with me. Absolutely not. She's openly unimpressed with his performance in bed. Oh. So that's probably like a huge factor. She's like. That wasn't good. Not doing it for me. Yeah. That wasn't good. Eventually she walks away choosing solitude over selling yourself short.

35:16She's not in love with him. Fine. Yeah. Yeah. But she does paint them. So look up Alice and John in the bathroom. Alice and John. In the bathroom. Okay. And this is cute. I mean in 1935 she depicts the pair post coitus both urinating. Alice is on the toilet. John standing at the sink with an erect penis in his hand. Trying to figure it out. At the time they're like what the fuck is this painting?

35:48Like you can't paint this painting. This is porn. But later. This is so good. Yeah. It's so honest right? I mean we've all been there. Well it's just all those movies where they fuck and then you're. Go to the bathroom girlfriend. Don't get a UTI. We don't like cranberry juice. It doesn't taste good. No matter what ladies. Go to the bathroom. Do it. Even if you don't have to go you're going to squeeze that a little bit.

36:18Cran vodka does not help. CSA.

36:22Fucking go to the bathroom. Don't be like the movies and snuggle right after. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Go pee. Yeah. Absolutely. I'm like yeah clean up. Get all the pubes out of here.

36:33That's what they're doing. Like that's the nasty after the nasty. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Cleaning up. Yeah. Cleaning up your stuff. Cleaning up. So. Alice continues exhibiting. She enrolls. She is really cool. She enrolls in the New Deal art program that would have paid the unthinkable sum of $30 a week. But still she's getting paid to paint. There you go. She painted. Yeah. And she's at this point investigating poverty.

37:04Living in poverty. Yeah. Let me see. Do as the impressionists do. Start painting the. Start painting your people. Start painting your. Your. Your situation. And not all these famous people that can pay for portraits.

37:22Yeah. This painting is. I can't wait. Again. It'll be on Patreon. But yeah. No. This is. Yeah. This is the. This is the time after. Not a lot of people depict that. And there is a little bit. This is where we're like. Okay. I mean. This is where she's saying like. It wasn't that bad. You did really good. It's. Yeah. It's okay. It's okay. It's okay. Yeah. No. It's fine.

37:53It's fine. So that's that conversation right now. In this painting. Of like. No worries. Like. I'm fine. I can figure it out later. I'll figure it out later.

38:03If you just leave the bathroom really quick. I'm trying. Figure it out right now. I'll figure it out right now. Oh my God. Oh my God. Okay. So.

38:14So by the mid thirties. Alice is like full on painting nudes.

38:22Unapologetic. Unsanitized. And deeply confrontational paintings. Women weren't supposed to do that. And Alice did it anyway. Lovers appeared. Clothes vanished. And idealization nowhere to be found. So now. Let's look at one of her early works. Called Ethel Ashton. 1930. And this is not your soft focused. Dreamy idealization of the female form. No. Yeah. Neil's portrait of her friend Ethel. A classmate from the Philadelphia School of Design for Women. It's raw.

38:52It's uncomfortable. It's deeply personal. And intentionally awkward. Instead of like. Making her all hot and stuff. She paints her all like crouched. And a little off kilter. Looking straight at the viewer. So you can't escape those big, huge, soulful eyes. That seem to say. Yes. I exist. And I feel things. The body's exaggerated. Heavy thighs. Pendulous breast. Even described as Neil herself as a woman. Almost apologizing for living. Burdened by the furniture she carries around her own body.

39:25Ooh. And then when. So this painting does not get shown until 43 years after it was painting. Painted. And critics and the public were like very uncomfortable with it. When it finally gets shown. Instead of applauding its psychological insight. Many people dismissed it for defying how the female nude is supposed to look. And Ethel herself was like pretty pissed about the painting. She's like. This is not fluttering of me at all. She apparently. She reportedly stormed out of the exhibition when it was shown.

40:00But like. Listen. This is why it's important to show squishy weird bodies in the media. Look down. Which she weird bodies are okay. They exist everywhere. And that's what it is. Yeah. It is what it is. That's what you have. Yeah. Most of us are going to have a little bit of a fluff. It's not supposed to be. Yeah. Like. You know. Conventionally pretty. And that's why it makes it so good. She also just has this way of capturing. An immense amount of vulnerability. And presence.

40:29Yeah. In this lady. So. And her face kind of looking up. Like. Like. She's almost like. Here it is. I mean. And this is like a radical commitment at this point. To reality over idealization. And that's not like happening anywhere. So. We love it. We love it.