Bouncer George Bass on de-escalating conflict

Missed opportunities and early memories

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1:35Hello. Let me take you back to the early 70s. I get to hear on the grapevine that there's an Australian film director in town and he's making a comedy film. They want extras, possibly with the odd word to say or noise to make. It's set in and around a nightclub. Well, two nightclubs, actually. My contact, none other than the not-yet-but-soon-to-be very famous film director Nick Broomfield, says to me, well, Mike, you've done some acting. My friend Bruce is auditioning

2:06tomorrow. Why don't you go along? So the next day I turned up at a pub in London and waited in a queue on the stairs going up to the room above the pub. After a while, it got to my turn and I walked up to a table and sat down. In front of me were two people, a smiley bloke and a woman sitting next to him making notes. Hi, says the guy, I'm Bruce. Bruce Beresford. What's your name? Michael Rosen. And the woman wrote it down. Bruce looked at me for a moment or two and said, you look like a big,

2:38tough sort of a guy who could look after himself in a fight. I need some people to play security guys in a nightclub. There's going to be a big punch-up and the security guys get stuck in. Could you do that? Yes, I said. Bruce said, filming in June. I said, great. We shook hands and I left. Well, what with one thing and another, I didn't turn up for the shoot. I think I was on holiday. And so that was the year that I gave up the chance of getting my big film break as a security guy in a nightclub

3:10getting stuck in in a punch-up. The film came out. It was called Side by Side. Yes, I missed my chance of meeting a cast that included Barry Humphreys, Edna Everidge, herself, himself, if you get me, and Terry Thomas, a hero of mine from great 1950s comedies. Or you might think, more importantly, I missed my chance of working with the Oscar-winning film director, Bruce Beresford, director of a raft of films, including the much-celebrated Driving Miss Daisy. But I like

3:45to think even, yes, even yet more importantly, I missed out on my chance of being a bouncer. Well, playing being one, anyway. Ever since then, I've wondered what was it about me that Bruce Beresford thought made me look like someone who could look on screen like a bouncer? My size? My face? The way I walked? Or was it the way I spoke? Well, perhaps I'll find out today, because my guest today is the author of a book called What the Bouncer Saw? Life on the Frontline of the Security Business.

4:21He is George Bass. Welcome to Word of Mouth, George.

Words as a riot shield

4:24Hello. Nice to be here. Lovely. So first question, I know I'm getting on a bit, but if you can imagine me, 50 years younger, could I have been a bouncer? Do I talk like a bouncer? Michael, 40 years ago, you were a bouncer, and I seen you in action in one of the toughest crowds I've ever known. Florida Dinner Hall once did primary, 1988. You did chocolate cake, and everyone in Mrs Moore's class went silent, glued to you. So your crowd control is up there with a secret service. Job well done. You have definitely got the presence.

4:57Oh, wow. Yes, that's the first time anyone's ever described my act as a form of being a bouncer. You say crowd control. Is that, in a way, part of your work? Yeah, I suppose so. In as much as you provide a physical presence where people can definitely see you're not one of the punters, you're there to sort of keep a lid on things. And that doesn't mean you're a door filler. You know, you've got a massive physique. I know the listeners can't see this, but I don't look much like the bouncer stereotype. I'm a javelin, you know, tall and

5:29skinny. My dad used to call me a racing snake. My mum said I have to jump around in the shower to get wet. You look a bit like, dare I say, a bit like a greyhound or a whippet. Would that be fair? Yeah, well, that's very kind. Yeah, my girlfriend calls me a spud smuggler. She says you're like a little stick man that someone's drawn little potatoes of muscle all over. You know, you look like you've stolen a load of potatoes. Yeah, so this is all making me wonder how you got into the job. Because, you know, I see occasionally security people, bouncers and so on, and they seem very big and muscly. So did you use the

6:05verbals to get the job? How did you get in? Yeah, I think verbals probably had a hand in it. My first boss in a job, Mr Connolly, he was the one who said to me, words are your riot shield. That's what I want you to learn here. You've got to learn to use words. That's quite interesting. That came up in the training. Words are your riot shield. That's quite potent, isn't it? Yeah, it is. When I started, you didn't need, or I didn't need, the door supervisor licence, the bouncer ticket, which is mandatory now if you're working in licence premises.

6:35And my boss at the time, as I say, Mr Connolly, he didn't want us to go for one. He used to say, if you're rolling around on the carpet getting battered, you've already lost. Or he used to say, you've won the fight, but you've lost the war on paperwork. So when he said words, did he also mean tone of voice? Because, you know, we all know from aggressive situations, I remember once being attacked in the street. And I wasn't actually a bouncer at that moment. I was just attacked in the street when I was at university. And for some reason or another, I just took a step back and just said quite quietly, yeah. Now that was,

7:13I didn't go in aggressively with my voice. So do you learn how to modulate your voice? Yeah, I think so. I've very rarely had to raise my voice. Normally, well, fingers crossed, I've got the presence to make people realise that I'm saying what I mean. You know, I'm not going to threaten to do someone a serious physical injury, because that's not in my training. I don't want to physically hurt someone. I'll restrain them if I think they're going to hurt me or hurt themselves. But I don't want to be rolling around on the deck with people. I think you need a bit of

7:45emotional insight. You need to be a bit of a mind reader and work out how to get people to stand down without it feeling like a surrender. Reading your book, I actually got an impression of you that you were, in a way, more a social worker than a bouncer. I mean, I can say most of your life you're working on the campus of the University of Canterbury. And the people you're dealing with are students, mostly, not entirely so. And it seems just that from the tone in which

8:16you write, that what you're doing is looking after people, making sure they don't harm themselves or don't harm others. Is that right? Yeah, and it might not look like that. But that's what a lot of my peers who are working in nightclubs 24-7 or all night, that's what they're doing, really. They're there to make sure people have a good time and that, you know, no one comes to any harm.

De-escalating conflict with respect

8:35So how come we've got this image of a bouncer as being a bit thuggish and chucking people out and that's their job, his job, normally a man? I think that's because prior to the SIA licence being mandated in 2003, I think it was. SIA, remind me once more. Security, industry, authority. I think the old image of the bouncer was if you could handle yourself on the terraces, you were in. That's it. They stuck you in a tuxedo and you're still on a club door with a pickaxe handle, whacking people. But I think if

9:07you're trying to run a nightclub, that's not an image you want. You don't want to see someone like me standing there dripping red and someone else chasing their teeth across the dance floor. That's not good business. So instead, you have to be a bit of a, almost like a mind reader. You have to be able to tell when someone's about to blow up and then go across and try and talk them down. Yes. Getting physical is always a last resort. So you say talk them down. I mean, how? Let's imagine I'm drunk. Quite difficult, actually, because I never get drunk. But anyway, let's

9:38just imagine I'm drunk and causing a problem, whatever that might be. How are you going to talk me down? What are you actually going to say to me? Well, it sounds really simple. But the thing I say to most people is, in a roundabout way, I say to them, what do you want? You know, what is it you're after? What is it you want to do? You know, are you open to, you want to get a girlfriend tonight? Do you want to fight someone? What is it? And I just listen to them. I think a lot of people, the reason they're getting wound up is because they feel they're not being listened to, especially like

10:10some of the younger people we deal with, even under 18s, teenagers trying to sort of sneak onto the site. You know, they'll be giving you a bit of verbal GBH and you take them to one side and just go, what's the problem? What is it you want? And I have one gang of lads who, God, it must have been about, what, 13, 14. And they've come on site trying to nick all the koi out of our fish pond. So I went out and spoke to them and go, come on, what are you doing? You know, what are you going to do? You're going to get that fish out of there. It's going to die before you run back over the road and get it in your fish tank. Anyway, I got talking to them and one of them goes, well, you think you're

10:42better than me? And I said, look, listen, mate, look at your trainers. They cost more than my uniform. Look at your phone. It costs more than my telly. You're younger than me. You're fitter than me. You're smarter looking than me. I do not think I'm better than you. I'm just, you know, trying to get you to go somewhere where you can do something a bit more productive, like get a girlfriend or something instead of standing there talking to someone whose boss is itching to call the police on you. And, you know, oftentimes some of the kids, I know, I mean, my girlfriend works in a unit for kids with social and emotional

11:13problems. Some of them had the most terrible start in the world you can think of. You know, you think your own upbringing is modest. Then you hear some of these horror stories and you realise you are minted. But sometimes I think no one's respected them. It's the one thing they haven't been given is respect. So, you know, I remember getting, there was a gang of lads once who got onto the campus and they were running, tearing through this nursing training block. And I got them outside. I go, what's going on? And he went, well, you know, we probably can't say now what he would said to me. But I said to him, look, you know what they've called us on you, don't they? Because you were frightening people in there. Now, straight away, he's listening. He thinks, oh, I'm scary. I said, you don't

11:47realise how frightening you are. You know, the girls in there, they're training to be nurses. They're going to look after your nan and your granddad. And by the time I'd walked him through two car parks, he was being all matey with me. And we were talking about going out fishing and things like this, you know. Yes. So he was impressed that you thought that he had that kind of power. Yeah. He just, I think he wanted what most people want, which is some respect. And I gave it to him. You know, did I really respect him? Well, no. The fact he's running around terrorising people is not conducive to good respect. But I thought it's not my mission to win,

12:20in quotes, against this guy. My mission is to get him off the site as peacefully as possible. And this was, when was this, like late June? So I'm thinking, if I upset this kid and don't get him off site now, he's on school holidays soon. That's six weeks of him coming in here with a catapult, smashing windows, giving us all sorts of grief. So I want him on side. So I go and talk to him and introduce myself. And then sometimes, not very often, but when a gang of kids come back and they see you or they see the one who's been nice to them, they go, no, he's all right. He's all right. You know, don't give him grief. He's all right.

Body cameras and radio codes

12:51You guys wear uniforms, don't you? I work at a university and I see security guys and you wear uniforms. But more than that, these days, you've also got body cams. We do have body cams, yeah. Now, how does that change the interaction you're having with people? Because if they see you've got a body cam, does that restrain them? And does it restrain you? I mean, does it stop you? Let's say you might want to swear at somebody. I'm not saying you do, but, you know, sometimes swearing can be quite effective. So does the body cam, is it inhibiting to you,

13:23to them? How does that work? Well, it still feels really weird. You know, every time I go to the gents, I think, right, behave yourself because this thing clipped to your chest is recording where you're aiming. And it does make sure I keep, as you say, the full style language to a minimum myself. You know, if I want to swear at someone now, I have to do it out of shot, put my hands above my head and swear at them in Mackerton or something. But yeah, one of the conditions of using a body cam is it's constantly recording, but it's not always archiving. When you click the capture

13:53button on it, then it starts archiving. In fact, it starts archiving from 10 seconds before you click the capture button because it assumes you're already in a volatile situation. But on people my age and older, I would say it has a visible effect. Someone coming in front of you, bursting with self-righteousness, and then suddenly you click it on it, you say, look, I'm recording you now. And all the air goes out of them and they think, oh, he's recording. My boss or the kids or the job centre are going to see this. It's quite an interesting thing, isn't it, about language? Because in the olden days,

14:23it was just purely face to face. So there is some kind of monitor going on both in your head, let's leave you out just for the moment, but in the punter's head, the person, let's say, being aggressive. That mention of the idea that this might be recorded, looked at, might even go as far as a court of law. It's quite interesting that that now acts as an inhibitor. Well, it does. Like I said to people, I would say millennials, my generation and older, people born after the millennium, they grew up on camera. They grew up sharing, you know, having

14:55selfies taken of them since day dot. So being recorded to them isn't a threat, it's just a normality. Saying to them, you're being recorded, is like saying to them, you're breathing oxygen. They just sort of go, yeah, you know. Oh, really? They're not inhibited by it. And of course, there are also CCTV cameras around it. They don't pick up sound, though, do they? No, not the ones on our site. You can get cameras that capture sound, but we don't. Um, no. Youngsters, I think they're a little bit less, you know, I had one kid once make a joke about, he went, well, I reckon I've got more followers than you, you know. And

15:25I said, yeah, I don't doubt you have, but, you know, my followers are the police, so take what you want from that. You don't need them. No, but well, I think it's sort of gone backwards, because the younger generation, if I'm confronting someone who's like, I don't know, 25 or under, they're more spooked by my radio. They think that links up to the army or something, because they haven't seen a radio, but, you know, they're used to phones or whatnot. So they hear these sort of voices on the radio and think, oh, who's he talking to? Has he got the police there or someone? Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, isn't it? The idea that there's a body of witnesses and, or, you say, a superior force that could

16:00come in. And do you talk in code sometimes? Do you have to make sure that you're not fully understood by the people all around you? I'm thinking doctors. They talk in code so that the person, the punter, doesn't know what's going on. Do you do that? Well, a couple of my colleagues who do security in supermarkets, I probably can't say which one, but if you ever hear a call for Mr Black to come to the front desk, that means anyone who isn't on checkouts, drop everything now. There's a mass brawl at the front. So these are called duress codes, and they're everywhere. If your job relies on a radio handset, I was

16:36explaining them to a mate of mine once, and he went, oh, what, like safe words? And I said, no, no, it's the opposite of a safe word. A safe word is something that sticks out. So like, you know, if a couple are up to spicy stuff in a bedroom and one of them shouts iceberg, that could mean stop. Or it's not something that normally gets shouted out in a bedroom, not unless one of you is really into Titanic or something. But duress codes aren't like that. Duress, they blend in. So the idea is they're used under duress. So in an early security duty I had just after 9-11, the site steward tells us all, I've reprogrammed

17:12your entry codes so that if you enter them backwards on the panel, the alarm system will auto summon the police. So his thinking was that if someone had got like a knife to our neck and said, let me enter the block now and turn the alarm off, the alarm would be turned off by us. But the police would have been summoned without their knowing. A modern version, which I really like, is Ask for Angela, this system where anyone in a pub or a club who's getting harassed or whose date has turned out to be a complete weapon head can go up to the counter

17:45and just say, oh, excuse me, is Angela in? Can I talk to Angela, please? And that then means get me somewhere safe. So we then take them into a stock room and say, how can we help you? You're safe now. Please don't eat all the boxes of crisps. You know, we'll go and get help for you. Yeah, I see. So you've got a range of these duress codes, have you? Like in your job at University of Canterbury? Yeah, yeah. We've got quite a few. We've also got more kind of less camouflaged codes. So if we were calling for an ambulance or something, we would say code white on the radio, which

18:19then means all chatter stops. Everyone stopped talking on the radio now, except for the people who were marshalling the ambulance onto site so that we don't give the paramedics the wrong directions. So that's a safety thing, really, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, it is. We also, there was an incident a year, was it a year or two ago, where I found this bloke shooting up heroin in a stairwell and he's come out with his syringe all full of blood and he's chased me around his car park shouting out that he really wants a shower. And I'm going, no, keep back, mate, keep back, keep back.

18:49And that's dangerous for you? Yeah, it is. Well, yeah, it is dangerous for me. But in a situation like that, normally we would have to call the police from scene because they don't like it if you call the police through a base station because then the emergency call handlers get in secondhand information. But on that occasion, I didn't want to put my hands down because I didn't want to get the guy to get near me. So I managed to sort of get one hand on my PT to the push to transmit button on my radio and basically sort of give like a director's commentary. What was happening to me? Yeah,

19:23I've got one. I see one fella opposite me. He's got us. He looks like a syringe. And I knew then that our receptionist at the time would be on the phone to the police relaying all that information. And luckily they were able to come out quite quickly and deal with the fella.

Upbringing and background in East London

19:36Now, when you recount a story like that, you know what I'm thinking? I'm thinking, why are you doing this job? It's not to be rude. I mean, I'm in admiration. And I know because you recount it in the book, you don't get much dosh. You're not, you know, it's not a mega earner, this job. So as I say, I'm not being rude. Why do you do the job? I don't know, really. I suppose I've always been good at looking out for people. I've always been sort of good at keeping an eye on people. Like when I was a kid, if we were out up to mischief,

20:07I was always the lookout. And then when I was a teen, I was always the designated driver, it felt like, even before any of us had a licence. But I really like looking after people and keeping an eye on them. I've said before that I'm cursed with a long memory. So I know what it's like when you're, you know, maybe you're 18 and you're getting tanked up for the first few times or taking other stuff and you really need help, but you really, really don't want it to be the police or your mum and dad. And we kind of fill that gap, you know, my job role. We're there to keep an eye on

20:39you. And what was your own childhood like? Maybe, I don't know, I'm only guessing, that maybe in a sense nurtured you to become this kind of a person? Er, yeah, I, let me think. I suppose I come from quite a modest background. I was born in Leightonstone in East London, same hospital as Beckham and Harry Kane. Obviously, I went on to be the best goal scorer, I like that recorded. Yes, we'll remember that. Yeah. But, you know, we never had lots of toys or foreign holidays or anything, but we had,

21:11I had the basics. I had radiators, clothes, free meals. And my mum and dad sort of worked multiple jobs to look after us. And I always knew I was looked after. I always felt I was really looked after by them and that, you know, that my mum and dad were kind of, they were like natural born bomb diffusers. They just seemed to be able to deal with anything calmly and rationally. And, you know, I can remember my dad once, my brother and me took the car out on the road, we were underage. And, you know, we got back and he got a bit wound up and my mum just going,

21:44can we just skip the next half hour where everyone's screaming at everyone and get to the bit where we actually solve the problem? Oh, that's beautiful. Yeah, isn't it? Yeah. Yes. Skip the next half hour. I'm going to remember that one. I'm going to steal that one off you. Now, you say in the book, of course, that your parents weren't both English, were they? No. In origin, anyway. No, no. My dad's from the East End and my mum's German. She's from Germany. I couldn't speak any English till I was about four. And then I got meningitis and lost all my memory. I forgot my parents were, forgot how to speak. So I had to relearn. And I suppose maybe, you

22:20know, that might have made me a better listener in a way. I then sort of had to learn how to listen and learn stuff again. And my mum being German, I knew if I'd, if I wound her up, she was English. But if I really wound her up, she'd go German. So I knew where the baseline was, how not to wind people up. And can you speak German? Yeah, so I'd be a bitter. I can get myself... I'd be a bitter. It's good. That's a good start. I can get myself around, you know, whenever, sometimes we go over there if we've saved up for holiday. And my girlfriend always goes to me, well, you know, you can speak German.

22:51And I try and do what I do in all languages. I've memorised one sentence. So if I go up to, if I'm in, on holiday in Germany or whatnot, I go up to a counter and I go, Ah, es tut mir leid, ich bin Engländer, also mein Deutsch ist nicht so gut. Which means, I'm really sorry, I'm English, my German's not very good. And they straight away switch into English and go, no, your German is very good. How can we... And then we're in English and off we go. Yes. Very useful is mit oder ohne Senf, with or without mustard. It's absolutely vital when you're having a knuckwurst, yes. Yeah, I got a good insult I heard not long ago called Hanschuschniebelwürfer, which means

23:27man who requires gloves to throw snowballs, which I thought was a really interesting turn of phrase. Yes. Excellent. And did you ever see things, violent things at school or that maybe, maybe, I mean, you talk about some of them in the book. Yeah. Does that feed into how you behave in your job? Yeah. I mean, I had to share a bedroom with my brother till I was 17. And, you know, we used to fight a fair bit and he was into engines. So I was always treading on loose screws or

24:00his solder and iron. But we had to learn to give each other space. So I remember I made a line down the middle of the carpet with some masking tape. And my dad said, right, that's the Berlin Wall, is it? And it's the same technique. De Mauer. De Mauer. De Mauer. The same technique is sort of taught in self-defence today, funnily enough, where we have this thing about ranging where 0 to 0.5 metres is intimate distance, 0.5 to 1.2 is friendly distance and 1.2 to 3 is stranger or suspect weapon. And it's sort of gone full circle because

24:32I see the same numbers in my daughter's karate class when she goes now, they call it the spider web. You know, we might not see eye to eye and we don't have to fight, but do not come into my spider web or you might get your insides liquefied. Oh, right. So you, but you've got that sense of space when you're walking around when moments of danger, you've got that very clear sense. Yeah. But of course in punch-ups, I mean, people aren't like that, are they? No, no, usually that's how they'll start is someone will go right up into your face and, you know, almost sort of daring you to, to push them back or whack them one.

25:06And when there is a one-on-one like that, I mean, I noticed I've watched a lot of football, referees, they stand back. I'm not suggesting you are, well, in a way you are a referee, aren't you? Yeah. Yeah. They stand back and wait for the ruckus to subside. But you can't do that because one of those people might cause the other one serious harm. Yeah. What we normally do is we get between them, which means you get a few digs yourself normally, and then you have to very quickly try and work out which one of these two is more far gone. You know, who's more potentially inebriated. And then the rowdier one, you just

25:41try and get them outside. And the other person, you would say to them, look, there's a load of witnesses around here now. Everyone's seen you having a go at this person. Wait a few days. If you're going to fix him, fix him later on. And then you just keep an eye on them for a few days and you pray that they fall in love or their team wins or something happens to take their mind off of it. Normally, once people have sobered up the morning after, they realise, no, it's not a good idea. It's not worth it. Now, one thing I'm thinking here is that quite a few students come from maybe slightly better off background than maybe you do. And do you ever find that they look down on you? I

26:17mean, there's this very frequently used put down word, jobsworth, that, you know, you might only say, could you please not go there? And someone go, jobsworth. So do you find there is that way in which people want to insult you because of who you are and what your job is? Yeah, maybe. Actually, I got jobsworth last shift or shift before last when we got called to a bloke, a student, who had a Harris hawk tethered to himself on the campus. What's a Harris hawk? A hawk, you know, like a bird of prey.

26:48No. Yeah, no, no, honestly. We got a report saying there's a bloke with a hawk. He had the glove and everything. We've gone down and gone, what are you doing? And he's gone, well, I've got it off a mate. And I'm thinking, mate, what's someone in a city who's got a hawk? So we had to, I remember thinking, I had a little Google before I went down because I thought, I don't want to get into a verbal with this bloke. And I thought, I just wanted to check the university's policy on emotional support animals because some people are allowed a dog or whatnot if they, you know, if they feel overwhelmed. But you have to declare that

27:20to the youth. And I thought, no, no one's declared that they're, you know, remaking Kez on the campus. So down I went and just said to him, come on, mate, you can't bring that in here. And all I kept thinking of was a mate of mine who used to be a parkie back in the days of pit bulls. And he said to me, do you know, most pit bull owners, the dog attacks them. The dog will go for them. And I just had this image of this hawk pecking this kid's eye out. So I said to him, look, mate, come on, you know, be sensible. And he's gone, oh, your job's worth. And yeah, I know. And then what happened? I mean, did he leave with his hawk?

27:51He left. He went out towards the city centre. And I think my daughter texted me later on when she was walking home from school saying, I've just seen a bloke with a hawk. And I said, yeah, it's one of ours. You know, don't worry about it. Very good.

Closing thoughts and final words

28:03Well, a note for listeners. You're listening to Word of Mouth, of course. And as you may know, the programme is produced in partnership with The Open University. If you'd like to listen to my conversation with The Open University about the words we use, my own language journey and what I've learned from the stories behind how we speak, you can visit the BBC Radio 4 Word of Mouth programme page and follow the links to The Open University.

28:28Fall flavours are waiting for you at Whole Foods Market. Cozy picks all through the store, like maple leaf cookies from 365 brand. Swing by the bakery for pumpkin cheesecake, here for a limited time, and pumpkin turmeric bread freshly baked every single day. Sip the season with 365 brand cinnamon spice coffee and pumpkin spice creamer. While you still can, spice up Fall at Whole Foods Market. So, I'm going to say thanks very much, George, George Bass, for talking to us about your book,

29:03What the Bouncer Saw. But before you go, George, we'd like to finish the programme with a farewell that fits the theme of the show. So, I'll tell you what, let's say I'm that last stroppy bloke who won't leave or can't leave. It could be a club or wherever anyway. What is your last and final word to get rid of me? Excuse me, Mike, is it? Listen, mate, that redhead who was talking to you earlier, the one who's put together like Sydney Sweeney, she's out the front begging for your number. I told her I'd ask you if you wanted to give it to her yourself. If you're interested,

29:36and then get you outside, bar the door, put the kettle on. Why does the world want American surrogates? I'm Asma Khalid, and I host the Global Story podcast from the BBC. Paying someone to carry a pregnancy is banned in most of Europe and large parts of Asia as well. But here in the US, business is booming, though as the popularity has grown, so too has the public debate around the ethics of it all. For more, listen to The Global Story

30:10on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.