Ep.18 The content is the experience - Sabeeha Banubhai

0:00Hello ladies and gentlemen, my name is Gideon Mashawa and welcome to one more episode of the World Class Designer Podcast. And today I have as a guest, Sabeha Banu Pahai. Like when you say her name sounds way easier than I do. So she's from South Africa and she's a designer, founder, like developer and a lot of things. So I'll let her introduce herself

0:35Pahai. So please. Hi. Hi Gideon. Hi everyone. So yeah, my name is Sabeha. Sabeha Banu Pahai. It definitely does sound a little bit easier when I say it. It's actually Arabic. That's probably why it's a little bit difficult. Oh, I see. So what does Sabeha mean? It means forenoon or beautiful. Oh, cool name. Which I'll definitely take the compliment.

1:07Yeah. So I'm currently the founder of a couple companies, but specifically Jack Studios, which is a product house where we specialize in helping entrepreneurs and dreamers and people that want to create a startup or create an app and have an idea. We help them bring those dreams to life and essentially get them from an idea to a paying customer, which I think is the goal at the end of the day is to make money. So we definitely try and help them on that journey. And yeah,

1:39I've been a designer, a developer, an IT business analyst, a photographer. I've done too many things actually over the course of my career. Okay. That's, that's nice and wearing multiple hats. Yeah. And that's the Jack studios, Jack of all trades. Oh, I see where the name is coming from. Yeah. So it's sort of my personality and my nickname. And, and, and your logo is quite funny. What that is

2:11supposed to mean? Seems like a person, but. Well, it's a hat. So the idea is that, um, if you see the full logo, it sits on top of the letter J and with each different product we have, we have a different, um, a different hat essentially. Oh, I see. Oh, it's a really nice concept. Thanks. I will let my designer know. Cause I think we spent about three and a half months trying to figure out what logo and what font we wanted because when you're doing stuff for yourself, it's so much more difficult. Yeah. I was about commenting on that. It's really,

2:44really hard to decide like things for yourself when you're a designer. So I've been, I've, I've been planning to redesign my website for almost a year now.

2:55Yeah. Now tell me about it for seven years. I didn't have a website and it was, I think, a better time in my business. The minute we put a website up, I think there was so much of pressure and one of the mistakes we made was we wanted it so beautiful that it appealed more to our peers than it did to our clients. So we actually, we actually redesigning it and positioning it, you know, more for our sales funnel than a showcase. Oh, I see. So Semeha, so let's go to the,

3:27to the topic of, of, of the podcast, which is about becoming a world class designer. Uh, so can you, how do you, how, how do you started your design career? Uh, like, I would like to start from there. How do you started your design career? And how do you see design today? So I think I had, um, a rather unconventional start to design. I definitely did not think I was going to become a designer. I did not plan to, I actually went to study photography

4:01and I wanted to do specifically wedding photography at the time. And at the university that I studied in your first year, you had to choose eight subjects. And I had filled up all the spots with the topics that I knew and I wanted to learn because it was like across the different schools. And the last one was either between marketing and something called interactive design. And I had no idea what it was, but I was like, I don't really want to know marketing. So let me just add the subject in. And to my surprise, it was the one I enjoyed the most.

4:35I remember we did like, we designed emojis and we did responsive web design and a little bit of development. And I think once I saw the website come to life, I got really excited. And I think that instant gratification, um, actually got me into development, which I don't think a lot of people know is that I actually qualified as a developer. Um, but I did a lot of design subjects as well. And only, I think in my second year of working, did I then decide to become an experienced designer

5:08full-time and sort of leave development behind. And, and why, why you decided to do that? Sure. It was, I had a lot of learnings, if I can say in industry and being a developer is really tough and there's a lot of pressure and I, and I, I wouldn't say I was the best developer. Like I was good at it and I could get it done, but it took me really long and it was really like a lot of pressure and I didn't have a lot of support in the initial companies I was at. Like as a junior

5:39developer, I had to like build an app by myself in a month and you know, you're working 16 hours a day. And I was like, this is not really the life I want. And I also saw a need for design because by the time designs got to me as a developer, I saw so many issues and so many things that couldn't be developed that I thought I would be a better use in design and actually designing something with that development background so that I could design it for the developers as well in a way

6:12that was easy for them to build. Because sometimes just making a button look a certain way in a certain language takes hours to do, whereas it doesn't necessarily bring that much of value to a user or to the business. And I naturally changed, I would say, paths, career paths that way from developer to designer to moving more into sales and eventually entrepreneurship. Well, it's quite a journey.

6:41And it happened over a short period of time, so I definitely feel a little older than I actually am. And how would you define now design for your younger self? Imagine if you were starting your career. I would definitely position it more as problem solving and a toolkit as opposed to a process. I would say it's just different ways of thinking and looking at a problem and different ways to create solutions and test it out. Okay. That's a very practical way of seeing it. Do you think you would

7:18understand that? I think I would have, especially because I understood development, which was a very logical, you know, way of doing things. Whereas I saw initially, I think as a designer or as a developer and designer, I saw design as more the fun process, pretty side of it. But I think when the older I got and the more work I did, I became much more obsessed with what problem am I trying to solve? Why does it

7:50need to work this way? How can we do it simpler, quicker, faster? And I became way more interested in the business of design. Okay, I see. That makes a lot of sense. Actually, it's a quite similar path that I did have. But my developer life was way shorter than yours. I started as a front-end developer,

8:17but I tend to want to be the best in everything I do. And I couldn't compete with my peers because they were so way better than me. So I could focus on something that I could do better. And something that didn't take up your whole life, you know, like some people are so good at development and I would just sit there forever. And also I was a perfectionist. So I would now try and make that UI look even better than the design. And yeah, eventually you just, you're not getting

8:48paid to sit there for 16, 20 hours a day. Yeah, like same issue here. And my peers were way faster and could do things better. So, but on the other side, I was able to like put people working together better, designing things better than them. So I tried to focus on things that I did better. Yeah. So, and I think as you grow and as you age, your, your skill sets change, you know,

9:19and where you find your flow, something I'm very interested in, you know, daily with myself, what is the thing that I do the easiest and the best? So instead of like, you know, something that takes so much of effort for like these days, strategy and business comes to me so much easier than, you know, the actual UI design. So that now I've got team members that support things that I can do, but they can do better than me. Yes. Feels like you're reading my mind, living, living in exactly the same situation now. Uh, so, and how would you explain your design

9:57process yourself now that you understand design and special business? I would definitely let go of the ego around the design process a lot sooner. Um, I think when, especially when you taught design in a formal environment, you go through every single stage, every single deliverable, and you think you need all of that, but you don't know why. And I think now I would say, understand what you're creating and why you need it,

10:29because your design process is for you. It's not for the client. At the end of the day, they just want the website or they want the app. They don't want a persona or a user journey, or, you know, all, there's so many things that we, so many tools we use. So I would, as I said, see it more as a toolkit. And that's how I try to teach those, like the designers that work with me, that every time we have a new client, we have a session to say, okay, what don't we know? And what

11:00do we need to know? So for example, sometimes we know the user, then, you know, we don't have to do as in-depth research as a case where it's a completely different industry. Like if we had to design an app for doctors, we have no idea anything about their pain points and why we're designing it. And if the client can't give us that information, then we need to do exercises to get that information so that we design the best product. But at the end of the day, the client is coming to you for the best product. Your process is yours and you define what needs to be done. And I think that's

11:35something I want to encourage my younger self to do is to be more particular about what information I need and what value is that information going to bring to the final product. Because sometimes we end up doing so many things, but it hasn't actually made any influence because we haven't actually extracted insights out of all that work that influences the final product. That's a quite, quite nice way of seeing things. Yeah, I wish I had that clarity when I started. Well, we can definitely try and help those, you know, starting out to get that from the beginning.

12:09So you're not as frustrated in design environments where you don't have, you know, six months to research. Yeah, definitely. So, and which mistakes would you tell your younger self to make? The one recently, not too long ago was, you know, try and design a website without content. And you will quickly realize that you're wasting everyone's time.

12:37So I'm very used to designing systems. It's, I would say that's where I thrive. Anything that's complex and has, you know, different users and different interfaces comes to me so naturally. But, you know, sales funnels and brochure websites, I struggle the most with. And last year, actually, we had a very large client in the fintech or in the finance space that needed a website redesign. And the biggest issue was that we went through all the processes and we didn't have content. They

13:12were like, okay, when you get to design, you know, we'll put the content in, you tell us what you need. And we did all the wireframing, all the layouts. And eventually, when we got content, we realized it needed to be like 75% of a different website and a different experience, you know. And I saw that a few times throughout my career. Whenever it came to content-based websites, you can't put lorem ipsum text and throw stuff in afterwards because the content is the experience on those websites.

13:44I see. That's a super valuable insight. The content is the experience. Noted. That's not for my younger self. It's for myself now. No. Well, for your own website, eh? For me too.

14:00So, like, when you talk about focus, what would you recommend your younger self to focus on? So, my latest obsession is marketing, which, ironically, I avoided in my initial years of studying. Especially running a business, I am obsessed with trying to understand how to sell things. And I think design and that experience, it's done in such isolation, especially when you're working on interfaces, that I'm trying to understand how do I design

14:34my business? How do I create an experience for my clients, for my staff? And that's something I think we should focus on sooner is the holistic experience. And I think there's so many names for it these days, you know, customer experience or service design, and there's all these labels. But if we start to see the user or the customer beyond just what we're designing for, how do they get there? Where do they go from there? You know, how do you actually

15:06create these, how do you get them to have the experience you want them to have? Okay. Another very important insight. It makes me think. Yeah. It does. Like, I've been, I think I've been stuck in my head quite a lot ever since I started the business full-time. Because you start to see things from every angle. And being a business owner, you realize there's so much more to worry about than, you know, the color or the font that you chose. Because are people even seeing your website? Like,

15:41are they even using your app? Yeah. Yeah. I can. I hear you.

15:48And I feel your pain.

15:52Yeah. There is a lot of things that you learn when you try to abstract. I think that actually helps you becoming even a better designer. Yeah. Because you learn to be more practical and more objective. Definitely. I feel like being a business owner and being, you know, involved in client, you know, in their needs, makes me a better designer. Because I also offer better advice at this point. We, and also because I founded my own products. That was a, that's a whole journey on

16:25its own way. When you spent your own money building a website or an app. And you advocate for design. And you're like, you know what, in our terms, like you spend like 80,000 ryan on design. And there's not one person using the app. It's like a small part of you dies inside. And eventually I've learned to just give better advice also to clients. Like, you know, let's maybe get from zero to paying customer with a low-code solution before we go design this amazing custom experience. Like,

16:59let's perceive the market one. Do you know what I do now? I use Google Forms. I don't even bother the design. I know. Google Forms is the most underrated solution. Oh yeah. Honestly. Like, if someone's willing to fill out that form, wonderful. We can move on to the next step. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like now, every time people ask me to design a website, I ask them, why don't you use Google Forms? They're like, what? Why don't you start designing that? Like, yeah. Like to, to suggest

17:32you the right tool for the job. And I think that's exactly it. And that's why I said it's problem solving. You know, what are you trying to achieve? And let's find the tool that does that for you. Like, every time someone comes to me and they tell me they want to build an app, I'm like, why an app? How many more apps do we need? Yeah. I feel like I've lost a lot of business that way, but it's a catch-22. Yeah, I understand. I understand. Like, I remember like pitching the same to a lot of people. So they come to me with an app idea. And I tell you, you know what, you can use Zapier and

18:08integrate Zoom and Memberful. And you do have your solution for $50 a month.

18:17But I think it's not sexy enough. You know, I think nowadays, everyone wants to say they have an app, or they have this platform or SaaS solution. But even if it's not making money, like it looks beautiful. And you know, that's like the call to fame. Yeah, definitely. So, so tell me, what about extra skills? What would you recommend your younger self to learn to get extra skills? The art of negotiating, which is currently something I'm reading, which is Chris Voss's book

18:54about never split the difference. I think negotiation is a really important skill as a designer, because you are bridging the gap between multiple departments. You need to know how to negotiate with a developer to get, you know, them to build what you want them to build and to negotiate with clients and with stakeholders and product owners about why, you know, to advocate for your design. I think any form of talking skills or written skills in communication is the best

19:25investment you can make. And I mean, at the end of the day, we're selling that I think design is sales. Yeah. So like never split the difference. The book is, it was from that guy who was a like a terrorist negotiator. Yes, an FBI agent who used to deal with hostage negotiations. Yeah, I think I've read that book really good. I don't remember most of half of the book now.

19:56You know, I think that's the thing with reading or any sort of like information. We're so like hungry to like finish the book like that was always my thing. And now I said, okay, I'm gonna do like one thing a week and I was trying to implement it and see how that actually works. Otherwise, we're just absorbing information. Yeah, I think, yeah, I don't, I don't remember. I know that. So there is a principle that I use in my life. That is, if you have to write it down to remember,

20:26it's because it's not important. Oh, wow. I write a lot of things down. Like, the thing is, I consume a lot of content. So I don't have time to write and go back and review everything I wrote. So I try to only fix things that I think are important. Because there is something funny about learning. Sometimes you learn things that you're not ready to digest yet. So instead of writing down, I ignore them and expect to find in a different format in the future.

21:02Because sometimes the lesson is there, but you are the one who's not ready. I actually really like that. Like, I've realized that with myself where I buy books. So that's my form of information because I'm exhausted by the screen 24 hours a day. And I go to like exclusive books. And I see all these titles and they're so interesting. And I would batch buy like 10 books. And I would start a book and I'm like, okay, this is interesting, but I'm just not ready to learn this information yet. So yeah, I think I definitely go back when, well, the books are there when I need

21:37them. Like whether it's marketing or sales or, you know, aligning my chakra sometimes. I'm like, I find the books I need or the knowledge I need when I look for it. Like for me, like books like Tolstoy, I'm like, what? Like I remember years ago, I was asking, why do people read this? It's so boring. But like now I feel like I'm ready to, to like navigate to this different type of content because I'm so exhausted with like business design books. So like I'm looking for something a bit deeper. So now I feel like I'm ready for that type of books.

22:12And it's amazing to see your progression, you know, by the type of content you consume as you get older. Because I think as a younger designer, you're obsessed with like typography and color psychology. And, you know, then you move on to the business stage and the tech space. And then eventually you're like, I want to understand myself better. Like that's the world around me. Like I'm going deep into philosophy now. Yeah. Yeah. Like I, I found myself like reading like 10 books about stoicism because of that,

22:44that part of my life. I was like, I want to understand life now. I think it's a wonderful skill to be stoic. It takes a lot of practice. I don't think I will ever be able to do that. I'm too lazy for that too much work. And it, and it actually takes a lot of energy to, to not care that much.

23:06Yes, it is.

23:10Yeah. Yeah, it is. It's a bit too much. So, so, so tell me a bit like, uh, in terms of books, which books like had tremendous impact in your life and you recommend your younger self to learn earlier? Oh, there's one. I don't know if I can swear on this podcast, but it's called, um, the subtle art of not giving a fuck. Okay. That definitely helped me a couple of years ago when I was banging my head at work. Okay. Because I'm someone that gets super passionate about everything I do. And I get, I think,

23:43way more attached to things than the people who own them, which is something I'm learning to detach from because it's not my product. It's not my business. I, you know, can't tell people how to run these things. So yeah, at that point I was learning what to care about. And that's what the book teaches you is not to not care about anything, but to choose very specifically what you care about and to care about that deeply.

24:10Yeah. I see. I remember reading that book also. I think the only part that I remember from the book is his friend died. Yeah. Like, yeah. Oh, sure. I can't remember the specifics. Like, I think also when you consume so much, you remember like how you felt reading the book and that's the, like, the last memory you have. Yeah. I think, yeah. Like, I think I remember like, like books now based on feelings more than like what they wrote there. Yeah. I remember reading that book. It's quite,

24:43it's quite good also. I think that one helped. And then recently I read start with why and it made me very angry because I felt like I didn't have my why and I still, I'm still not sure if I do. So I didn't finish it entirely, but it was a good book. Simon Sinek, right? Yeah. Like I felt it could be a tweet. It was a very long book that spoke about the same thing over and over and over and about Apple, but I love Apple. Yes. Actually, like, I will tell you like

25:1580% of all business, all business tech books are about Apple, Microsoft, Google.

25:24Unless you said no other companies out there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like that's the phase I was in, I think, last year and this year, like hacking growth. And the story brand was fantastic because I love branding and understanding that emotional connection we have to brands. So that one helped me also define Jack's story a little bit better. Okay. The funny part about branding on psychology, sometimes like as I study and I read more, I've realized that people tend to think that they are

25:59intentional about how brands are perceived, but it's a total accident how big brands become big brands. Yeah. Because there is no way people can have like that level of control of those things. That's what I feel as well. And that's why I start with why sort of frustrated me so much is because how do you design all these experiences? You know, and I think that's where experience design interests me is this intangible space where like, it's not an interface, it's a feeling people

26:34have. Yeah. And how do you get them to feel this way about your company or the products you create? Yeah. And I wish I could just learn a little bit more about that. Yeah. Like for me, it's a big economy, that part, because yeah, like there is something about a new product and experience and having people adopting and using your tool in a way that you expect. I mean, they use both completely different things. That's quite weird for me that I really don't get it. I hope one day I will understand and master that. But yeah.

27:07I'm sure like a couple years from now, people will write the history books or try and retrospectively understand the generation we're living in right now and the tech space.

27:21So tell me about following. Which people would you recommend your younger self to follow?

27:28This is probably one of the hardest questions because I deleted all my social media about two and a half almost three years ago after I did my honors research in anxiety in the digital space. So I actually have tons of anxiety and I had triggered myself so badly doing that research that I just stopped using social media until this year when I started the business I needed, you know, to exist on the internet as a business at least. So the only person that I'm currently following that has tremendous

28:04impact for me is Chris Do. Okay. And not Chris Do almost was a speaker at our conference last year. Oh, that's amazing. Almost. Well, hopefully if you get him the next time, please do let me know because I think also just that story of being an introvert and, you know, understanding design and business and now wanting to help others. Like I find that journey resonating with me the most. Yeah. And I think as a designer also to explore outside of your industry because so much influences design.

28:41So try and explore as many different topics and fields that relate, maybe not directly, but indirectly to your customers' experience. So what made you not following anyone on Twitter, on social media?

28:58I'm very careful these days with the content that I consume. Oh, Jesus. Because I feel like we are overloaded. I think we are quite similar on that regard. Also, I feel like if something's important enough, I'll hear about it somehow. Wow. Yes. Totally agree with you.

29:21And I think when you're also looking for something, you can easily search for it. So I like to be more proactive with my content consumption than being reactive on social media. So I don't follow people on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook. I only use LinkedIn, but I'm extremely careful with my connections. And if I still need to keep a connection and people start posting like random things, I just unfollow them so I don't see that anymore.

29:52Because I know that our days and our energy is based on things we see and consume. And I preserve my energy in every way I can. 100%. Yeah. I also find like managing energy and managing content consumption. Because there's such a, like, it's FOMO, you know. Yeah. I'm so scared of missing out on something. And I felt that way with LinkedIn recently since I started using it more for business. That I'm scrolling and every time I post something because I've never posted before.

30:26Like, when I put up a post, like, refreshing. Did someone say something? Like, did someone like it? Like, you know, it triggers this entire reaction that I don't like. So I try and honestly avoid the social spaces. You know what I do? Like with that, I turn off all notifications. So I've done that. And that's the interesting thing with me is that's why I know it's intentional. It's that I have no notifications. I only get, like, alarm messages. And I think my calendar just so that I don't miss meetings.

30:57But other than that, I have no notifications. So I willingly open WhatsApp and LinkedIn and TikTok, like, you know, three times a minute. Same thing to me. To go look for validation or attention or whatever it is we're seeking on these platforms. So for me, like, if you post, if I post something, it doesn't notify me. Even on LinkedIn, because I've turned it off, notification. So I don't see it at all. So I have to intentionally go to my own feed to see if someone likes it or comments on that.

31:30So I can reply. But don't you find that you do it more when the... No, I don't, because I tend to forget. Oh, that's amazing. I wish I could forget. Oh, no, I feel like I'm always on. It's really such a personal struggle to form a better relationship with technology. And I think that's why I find that I have a special, unique skill to bring to designing stuff. Because I actually don't like technology as much. So I want to find the simplest way and the most or the least invasive way to get what you need out of someone.

32:08I see. I see. Like, I do exactly the same. I remember a friend trying to invite me to join Dresden. It's a night run, right? Like, to do, connect, connect, run. I was like, dude, no way. No social media for fitness, please. I'm tired of being connected on everything. Leave me alone. I'm not doing that. It's exhausting, right? Like, for me, I don't know if you know Discovery Vitality, but here in South Africa, it gives you points every time you go to the gym.

32:39And I promise I go to the gym just to get points these days so that I can get, like, a free smoothie. Like, I'm so... These systems were created for people like me. You know? It works so well on me. So I have to actively choose not to be part of them. Yeah, like, yeah, like I'm trying to... Yeah, because social media can be over sometimes.

33:02So tell me, Sabaya, what you wouldn't tell your younger self? Hmm. That's interesting. I think the one piece of really bad advice I did get that I would not tell myself is to find a full-time job. Knowing who I am and knowing what I can learn from doing multiple things, I think it's a false safety net. And it's very restrictive, especially in most environments.

33:32I'm not sure that there's many jobs where you can get, you know, vast experience in many different things in one position. So I think being able to do multiple things and encourage myself to do more things. And to learn, just to, you know, keep learning and not feel this need to climb the corporate ladder or any of that, any of that. So what defines false safety net? You know, like, I think it's, how can I say, like, especially for me, I mean, this is a very personal, loved experience where I grew up in a very conservative family.

34:16And firstly, women don't work. So that was a very big thing for me to go study and work. And then it was like, okay, if you're going to go down this path, then get a job and then you'll be happy. Like, that was the end goal. Like, go study and get a job. And that didn't bring me the happiness I thought it would, whether financially or career growth or, I don't know, whatever it is I was seeking that I thought, you know, the corporate structure or the business structure should provide.

34:49It didn't for me and for a lot of people that I know as well, especially designers. I think we go in with a lot of expectations that a business should fulfill all these needs and passions of ours. And it just doesn't because they're there to make money at the end of the day. And I don't know why people get mad at businesses that whose goal is to make money. And yeah, so for me, it's finding that passion, finding that whatever I'm seeking outside of work, outside of that safety net, because you'll find money in if you have skills in today's world.

35:27It's so easy to make money online. And you don't have to have a corporate job to earn well. Okay, I see.

35:35Okay, that's quite interesting. But you think it's easy in general or it's easy for you? It's not easy at all. I mean, if I'm being honest, the last three months have been the hardest. It's like finding client work and having consistent income is definitely difficult, but I've never been happier.

35:57And like, I think you can find ways to make enough money to survive. You know, to get through the month is if you if you're willing to learn different things and to do different things. I think there's a lot of opportunity online for that. But I don't think being in a corporate environment is easy either. And I think that's that safety net, you know that, okay, I just need to pitch up to work every day and I'll get my salary. But no matter how much more you do or how much less you do, you're still getting that same amount.

36:29So that personal growth can stagnate. Oh, I see.

36:36That's a nice, nice, nice perspective.

36:41I'm thinking about it now.

36:45No, it's a mind boggling. It's a decision I had to make last year where, you know, why do I want to have my own business? And why have I had seven jobs that didn't exactly work out? And I think I don't know why our generation seeks passion and fulfillment in work. I don't think work was designed to because that's what we get told, right? Find your passion. You'll never work a day in your life. And I think that was the biggest mistake is trying to find such intense passion and fulfillment where you're finding your money.

37:21So when I started separating those a little bit, it was much easier for me. And it didn't hurt as much, like, say, feedback or criticism in the design space, especially. Okay. I see. I see. That is a very, very interesting topic, especially, like, for me. But, yeah. Nice, nice perspective. Nice, nice hearing this from you. It's a refreshing perspective.

37:53Yeah, I think it's a little controversial sometimes. Like, I'm wary of also how I position myself. I think I've become quite cynical over time. I've just looked at things differently. And I think the blindness came off at some point where you realize that, you know, the world doesn't necessarily work in this black and white way. And there isn't just one path in life. You actually have the full potential to choose the life you want to love. Okay.

38:24Nice. You touched on very, very, like, personal issues, actually. Like, I've been battling the same problem now because I now, like, I fought really hard to be able to, like, be hired, like, to have a profile that, like, those big five companies in the world could hire me. Now that I do have the skills for that and the qualification, I see that as a pointless thing. And I feel guilty for that because I always wanted that.

38:58And having a job in a normal field, corporation, is so pointless. But at the same time, I feel like I'm betraying my younger self because that is what my younger self wanted. Is it what you wanted or what you were told to want? I don't know.

39:23I don't know, to be honest. You know, it takes a little bit of introspection. It's actually a discussion I had with my family and my mom specifically. I think it was over the December holidays where I was so frustrated with work and just the system, you know. And I said to her, all you taught me was that I need to be, you know, financially independent and having a job sucks and I'm miserable. What do I do now? Everyone around the table just looked at me and my gran was like, well, you know, you could have been happily married with two kids by now, but this is the life you chose.

40:00Ever since then, I am choosing the life that I want to live. And sometimes it means having a little less money, but a lot more time to spend with the people I love and to also do nothing, which is my new favorite thing to do. I wish I could do that. Like do nothing. It is, it is amazing to do. That's super hard. It is, especially when you're programmed to be busy and to find your self-worth in your busyness.

40:31Yeah, like that is extremely hard.

40:37Yeah, I'm making a conscious decision now to do as little as possible. What do you do when you do nothing? Uh, this, I want to lie to you and say I do meditation and all of that sometimes, but really it's either like Netflix, TikTok, or reading a book. That's like my definition of doing nothing. Oh, I see. I see. You know, nothing productive at least. Oh, that's better. Yeah.

41:07But I mean, there are times when I like lay in the sun, like to do that, but it's very cold these days. I can get insane doing that. I know, me too, but I think it's important because learning to sit with your thoughts, I think we're very scared of what happens inside of our head. So we distract ourselves permanently.

41:31And I think it's important sometimes to just listen to what your body has to say. Nice. So, okay. So in talking to you and yourself, how much of your current professional success would you attribute to luck and how much would you say it's hard work?

41:51The harder I work, the luckier I got. Okay. Honestly, it's all about network for me. Like I always laughed and said that the first or the last time I had a CV was when I was an intern like seven years ago. Because every job and every opportunity that came my way was because of the people I worked with or the relationships I built and people that trusted me and liked working with me. And that's how I got even higher positions and better opportunities.

42:25So I'm not sure if it was either hard work or luck. I think it was just being friendly and likable. That makes a bit of a bigger difference.

42:35Okay. I see. That's nice. That's a very, very, very important excuse to have.

42:45But being friendly and likable, I'm not sure if I am that.

42:51I feel like we learn to be. Like I always say, I have different personas. Depends, you know, where you find me and where you meet me, you'll find a different version of me. So I don't think my mom and them would say I'm very friendly and likable. But certain people would, yeah. I see. So like to close these super cool conversations, do you have any questions for me? I do. How is the state of your heart currently?

43:23My heart? Yeah. Don't you have another question? No. It's the one I love asking because it's the one that tells you the most.

43:34I'm confused. Tell me more. Because I have to make very important choices in my life now. And like most of the times, I always knew what I have to do. But now it's literally half-half. And I've been living like this for the last three months and it's horrible. Because I can easily excel in everything I do.

44:04Because I put all my heart, my energy on that. And now it's extremely difficult because I don't know what. And what's holding you back? I don't know. What are the fears that you have about choosing or making a choice? I don't know. Or maybe I might know. I'm just afraid to acknowledge them.

44:35Definitely. I think we always know. But maybe that's a good place to start, you know. What's the worst that could happen?

44:47I've been asking myself that type of question and I don't like the answers also. Okay, what is the worst that will happen if you don't make a decision? If I don't make a decision, I will be miserable for more three months. Exactly.

45:09So that's interesting, you know. In the sense that we feel like decisions are final and fatal. And very rarely they're not. But, like, you know, unless you, you know, wanting to kill someone, probably don't do that. Think about that a little bit. But other than that, I mean, really, what is... And you can't change your mind. Why do we feel like if we make a decision, we can't wake up tomorrow and make another decision? But, yeah, that's the problem.

45:39I can't do that. Why? Like, I'm like a wade when I make a decision. Well, maybe you should cut yourself a little slack. Yeah, maybe. Because, I think, do you not feel we take life very seriously? Yeah, that's a very philosophical... And this idea of success and achievement and, you know, these goals that we have. And they're all centered around productivity and, you know, achieving something for someone.

46:14Sometimes it's okay to not be the best or not do everything, I feel. Like, we have so much of time in life. Like, why do we need to be, you know, a billionaire at 22? I don't know.

46:31I think it's just the information we fed. I can't be a billionaire at 22. I'm older now. No, me too. That's why I've given up. I'm like, you know what? I'm 26. I have lived a very full life at this moment. And if there's anything I take away is that I can go slower. Like, I feel like I've done so much and achieved so much. I'm very grateful for it. But I've had very little life and very little health in all of it.

47:02And right now, those are my priorities. Like, I want to live long enough to have more life and more adventures and more failures to talk about. And I don't want to have a heart attack at 30 and be in hospital. Because I try to, you know, take over the world. I see. I see. This was a super, like, lovely conversation. Really enjoyed this. Thank you, Gideon. Me too. I was very nervous.

47:33But it's been lovely. Yeah. That's really, really, really cool. So, like, where can people find you online?

47:42LinkedIn. It's probably the only place I'm active. I'm hoping to get a personal blog up and running soon just to share unsolicited advice to the world. Okay. But, yeah, I think LinkedIn for now. Or email. I'm actually a big fan of emails. That's nice. So, like, to all listeners, I hope you guys enjoyed this conversation as much as I did with this.

48:15On this one, I was trying a super different and cool format. We tried to go, like, a bit deeper into the questions and trying to bring a more personal side to this. And see you guys next time.