The Lotus Eaters Episode 2: Intangible as Wind [unlocked]

Introduction to Odyssey

0:00Dear listeners, thank you for joining us on our voyage into Homer's Odyssey. You're listening to The Lotus Eaters, a 12-part series on Homer's Odyssey that was funded by our generous supporters over at Patreon.com. It's because of that support that we're able to release this series for everyone. If you'd like to join them in supporting us, please head over to Patreon.com slash VeryBadWizards. One of the benefits will be that you'd get access to all of The Lotus Eaters at once rather than having to wait every week for a new episode to drop,

0:30but you'd also get access to hundreds of hours of other bonus content, and Zeus would smile down upon you for your generosity in supporting us. So thank you for listening. Let's get to the episode.

The Odysseators

0:57All right. Welcome to the second episode of what we are tentatively calling The Odysseators.

1:32The Odysseators.

1:35We are open for suggestions, perhaps, if you can think of something better. But, you know, in keeping with a certain pattern, it's got to rhyme with aders, you know? Yeah. It's a good default.

Books Three and Four

1:47Yeah. So we're going to talk about books three and four of The Odyssey, Telemachus. This is where Telemachus completes his journey. Well, I guess he hasn't completed it yet, but we see the meat of his journey to find out about his father from old King Nestor in Pilos or Pilos. Do you know which? I don't know. I'm going to say Pilos. Yeah, that sounds probably right. So he has to go by ship to Pilos, and then he goes on horseback to...

2:21Spare tape. That's how you do it? No. I was just fucking around.

Telemachus' Journey

2:28This part, where he meets Menelaus and Helen, and hears a bunch of stories about his father, and has to give a lot of speeches where he's very nervous. And you can see why this trip is so important to him, both for kind of connecting with his father and really believing that he is his father's son, and then also just understanding the weight of that legacy that his father left from these two kings. I have some stuff to say about both of these, but I'm kind of wondering what you thought of Nestor and Menelaus and, of course, the beautiful Helen.

3:08What an entrance when she comes in from her bedroom. When Helen made her appearance, I was a little starstruck. I'm not going to lie. I was like, it's the Helen. And it lives up to it. She kind of emerges, and she kind of slinks over and puts her legs on a stool. I think I have a note in my book, like, I'm hard.

3:30I know. I was like, I would fight some dirty Trojans for you.

3:35No, yeah, I enjoyed them. I think I texted you, like, who knew the Odyssey was such a page-turner? And, like, I was serious. I liked the Sparta part more, I think, just because more happens or we find out more.

Coming of Age Story

3:48But in both, like, what struck me was that this part of the book does feel so much like a coming-of-age story for Telemachus. Like, we see him maturing. We see him sort of learning how to deal with the real world in a way that you got the sense that he couldn't that well. I mean, there's just little lapses, but, you know, he's holding his own. Absolutely. And he's got a good peer role model for the first time in Pisistratus, who is Nestor's son. And you're right that there's more drama just because you have Helen and Menelaus and the whole war was started for her and she's drugging their drinks.

4:24Like, there's a lot going on in book four. Book three just gives Telemachus a picture of what if everything is going really well, going right. And Nestor is really one of the only characters in the Iliad. He's older than all the rest of the warriors. He has, like, a moment. He has an Aristaia, like, moment of glory in battle. But really, he's more the kind of father figure. He's the elder that you consult.

4:56And he never gets into any beefs with anybody for the most part. Like, he's a real success story and he, as we find out, had the smoothest trip home. It wasn't without any hiccups. But he basically got home, like, on schedule and has this flourishing family. You know, he has the sorrow from the war, but it's like he came out relatively unscathed. And so that's, I think, accounts for the lack of drama in book three is, like, everything's going great in Pylos. And everyone kind of acts the right way, the proper way.

5:29Yeah. Yeah. He has his shit together. And the first sense that I got that he has his shit together is that he's, like, sacrificing bulls to Poseidon, like, diligently. And the son seems to know what to say, Pisistratus, you know, like, he's very tactful. He's very eloquent. And that's a really good model for Telemachus, I think. And as well as a window into what if my life had gone well. That scene of the sacrifice of the bull, by the way. Dude, it's straight out of Apocalypse Now.

6:01Apocalypse Now, man. It really is. I think that's got to have been an influence on Coppola for that scene because it really is, like, just every step of that ritual.

Xenia and Hospitality

6:11So when Telemachus comes and he's with Mentor, who's really Athena, and he gets there. They feed them immediately. They say, join us. They feed them. They ask if everything's okay. And then he says, now that the guests are satisfied with food, time now to ask them questions. So that's Xenia done right. Yeah, totally. You don't ask them any questions until you show them, like, the proper hospitality, make sure they're fed, make sure they're rested.

6:42Then you start asking questions. Right. And Telemachus, when he first gets there, he says to Mentor, how can I approach and talk to him? I'm quite inexperienced at making speeches. And as a young man, I feel awkward talking to elders. And then Mentor, who's Athena. And I think he knows at this point. It's so weird. It's very weird. It says she looked straight into his eyes and answered, you will work out what to do through your own wits and with divine assistance. The gods have blessed your life, which is, you know, inspiring for Telemachus. But I could also see him saying, like, have they blessed my life?

7:16They've blessed my last couple of days, maybe. But, you know. Right, right. Yeah, no, I mean, if anything, by the end of these two books, like, Odysseus feels like a Job-like figure, the way that they're talking about him. Like, he has gone through everything and his whole household has been cursed. So, it would take a lot for Telemachus at this point to be thinking that, oh, yeah, the lords have blessed me. It's another example where I think Athena's a little defensive about, like, you know, how important the gods have been for the benefits of all the people.

7:49And I think that's kind of a running line. We saw it with Zeus in book one already complaining that the people were blaming them. And then you hear about the stuff that they did just on this journey because, like, Menelaus said, like, we didn't give them, like, a perfect hexagon or something like that. Yeah. It's like, but no, no, you got to sail back to Egypt. Do it over. Do it over again. Yeah. So, yeah, I was going to try to take the hipster stance that book three is actually better than book four. If you really have read it a lot of times and stuff.

8:20It's like season two of The Wire. Exactly.

8:24Exactly. Which might be right, too, although I don't, like, I'm still a season three guy. But I got the audio book in addition. Oh, yeah, I did, too, but I haven't listened. It's Claire Danes doing it. Yeah. How do you feel about a woman? I haven't listened. Yeah, I haven't listened. I was very curious. She's good. I do feel like I might have a little sexism. It's like, this is. It's a story about a boy. You know, we gave you the translator, right? You also have to be the narrator.

8:51No, but she's very good. And I was just listening and kind of falling asleep to it. And I was listening to book three. And I don't know. I was just like really enjoying it. Yeah, I recommend that. I mean, there's no substitute for reading it. But it's a nice supplement. Like when you're doing other things to just absorb it. Especially since it was intended to be spoken. That's why I was going to listen to it at some point. Yeah, good job, Claire Danes. I'm sure she's happy to hear that.

9:19Hi, Claire. Hey, Claire.

Plot Summary

9:22All right. Should we get into it? Should we go through it? Yeah, yeah. Let's just go through the plot. It's interesting because you said it was a page turner. But there's not a ton that happens. There's just a lot of stories that you get told. And, you know, you're watching Telemachus come into his own. And it's quite griping. Yeah. And, you know, you have this tension where Telemachus, it's hard for him to get a straight answer out of anybody. Like, just, is my dad alive or not? Like, Athena's not being straight. So, like, if he knows it's Athena at all, right?

9:55Which he clearly has seen that it's Athena as she leaves. So, like, it's hard to know whether he's just, like, still getting fooled each time she appears. Yeah. And I think not. And it's very strange because Athena reveals herself at one point in book three. And that's when Nestor actually, like, says, holy shit, I have to take you seriously. Yeah. Like, at first, Nestor is doing all the right things and he's welcoming, he's observing the codes of hospitality. But there's one point where he says, like, look, Athena will love you if she favors you anywhere near as much as she favored Odysseus.

10:32Like, you're golden. But then he adds, like, if you are his son. Yeah. And I think it's when Athena turns into the bird. Whatever that bird is. Yeah. Yeah. It's a, like, long bird I've never heard of. But, like, that's, he's, like, he, like, grabs him. This old guy just grabs him and says, okay, now you're actually, this is about to start moving right now. I believe in you. And. It is a funny moment. It's like when, in Pulp Fiction, when they tell him the wolf is on it and he goes, shit. You know, that's all you had to say. You got Athena? Shit. Shit.

Gods and Fate

11:03So, um, you were saying about the Xenia, you know, like, I love that they're risking their lives, literally, in order to fulfill, like, these norms of hospitality. Because once they're finished eating, then they're like, okay, so are you guys pirates? Like, come on, tell me. When you see at the beginning of book four that, like, the door person, one of the guards comes back to Menelaus and says, should we accept him as a guest or should we tell him to go find some other host? And then Menelaus gets mad at him and says, what's wrong with you?

11:34Of course, we're going to take. But I think that shows that it's a big deal. Like, it's a big obligation to take upon yourself to accept somebody. You now have to do a bunch of things. You're going to have to give a bunch of gifts. You know, your kids are going to have to welcome their kids. You know, so it's no small thing to accept somebody. And I guess the implication is, you know, you cannot do it. You can choose not to. But the really good, generous, honorable people are the ones that actually do it. But as long as you don't accept them in the first place, then those obligations aren't on you.

12:10I also like that the gods roam the world means that, like, any stranger might just be, like, a god in disguise. Yeah, that's a huge thing that, like, motivated some of this. It's like, well, what if it's actually Athena, you know? So, and none of them see that surprise that a person can just be a god in disguise. So that's just baked in to, like, how they see the world. And, you know, what I was going to ask you, they often refer to Telmachus, Odysseus, but other people, too, as godlike.

12:41What are they referring to there? Are they referring to, like, their appearance, like, their character? Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, gods would have children. But Odysseus is fully mortal. Like, he doesn't have gods in his, at least, immediate family tree. So I think it's appearance, strength, how composed they are, or how clever they are. So, and, you know, they have these, they call them, like, I think, epithets, where it's also just a way of getting people to kind of remember the characters.

13:11Because it's like a remnant of oral tradition stuff. So Nestor brings up Agamemnon. Well, he's telling him about Odysseus. And, like, last he knew, the gods were mad at the Greeks. Actually, the story that kind of motivates all of that we hear about in Book 4. But Ajax, and this is lesser Ajax, or little Ajax, not, like, big Ajax. He took his own life in the middle of the Trojan War. This is lesser Ajax. He had raped Cassandra, who was the slave that Agamemnon took back to his island where he was ambushed,

13:51as we hear at least, like, seven or eight times in these first four books. We hear about that story. But, yeah, Ajax had raped Cassandra in Athena's temple in Troy after they sacked the city. And so that's the triggering event that started all of this problem. And, yeah, they talk about that in the Aeneid. So he hears about Aegisthus. He hears the first of a number of stories about his father. I like how Nestor compliments Odysseus's.

14:21He was always the best at every kind of trick. Like, there is such a premium on cleverness. Like, the gods have this thing of being clever. And then the best humans, the most, like, the humans that they seem to favor are the cleverest ones. And what's funny is in the Greek tragedies, like, that exact trait of Odysseus is often what makes him kind of villainous in the plays. And I think here there is a little ambivalence about it compared to, like, the kind of brute force Achilles Ajax.

14:52I think there's some ambivalence about, you know, which is the more honorable. There's this general thing when you hear these stories, right, like, oh, man, they're, like, all PTSD'd after the Trojan War. And it sounds like they're PTSD'd from the journey back, like, largely, too, like, trying to get out. And one of the things that's just interesting to me is everything they attribute to the gods. And it's very clear that, like, in their view, like, gods sometimes just harm them. Like, sometimes the gods just want to hurt us.

15:24Sometimes they don't. And it's so different from, like, what ended up being this Judeo-Christian thing where it's, like, okay, God lets bad things happen. Only so you can have free will. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But here it's, like, no, like, I must have pissed them off. Like, they're after me. They don't think of the gods as this beneficiary. They're kind of like mob bosses. But not exactly. Like, they're kind of mob bosses that also protect them, you know, actually give protection for their lives at times.

15:55But you can always just get whacked. But the other interesting thing, and I think we'll see this with Helen, and you see it with even the way Nestor is describing the argument between Menelaus and Agamemnon. They sometimes just blame the gods. Like, Zeus is right. They do blame the gods for something that they're just doing themselves. Yeah, and you really do get the sense that, like, you know, what is time to these gods? Like, Zeus turns around, and, like, when he turns back to look at you, like, a hundred years have gone by, and, like, maybe he wasn't paying attention.

16:25It's the Don Draper, like, I don't even think about you. Like, you know. But they do, though. They take things so personally. Yeah, but sometimes. Sometimes. And sometimes it's like, oh, yeah, I guess I hadn't thought about that guy. Yeah, it has been, like, seven years that he's been on this island getting ravaged by this god. Right. And the other thing I was going to say is that, you know, it sounds like Nestor is, like, in telling the story of Agamemnon, and it just is, he's like, don't let this shit happen to you, man. Like, hey, at least he had a rest. He's, tell me, what happened?

16:56And he's like, yeah, he did get his revenge. And it's just like, oh, all right, you know, good that he had a son willing to do that. It's so funny. Like, everybody keeps talking about a rest to Telemachus. And Nestor also says, like, you're just letting. But do you willingly submit to it? Or has the god's voice led the townspeople to hate you? Well, who knows? Perhaps one day you'll come home and take revenge alone with an army of the Greeks. If only Athena loved you as she used to care for glorious Odysseus at Troy when we were doing badly. Yeah, that's great stuff there.

17:26And, like, you see that he sensed that he touched a sore spot. Totally. And he kind of pulled back. But it also just shows it is a real question. Like, not why did he submit? But as he says after that, why are the townspeople not defending Odysseus's house and not taking it upon themselves to raise Telemachus right until he gets back? Yeah, obviously something went wrong in his whole journey. Something went wrong in his household to let this happen. And something went wrong in the community.

17:57And it's like, what was there that happened? And then, like, to spend years with that, you know, just the fact that he's, like, getting up the nerve to do something about it at this point says good things about him. Yeah. And with help, though. But yes. With a nudge, as we behavioral scientists call it. Yeah. It's like you don't bind him to the mast. You just make that the default option with the sirens.

18:22The default mast. The default mast. So then, the other thing that I was going to say is about the gods is it's very hard to get a good sense of what the gods can and cannot do, what they are and what they aren't. Are they just? Are they capricious? Are they all-knowing? Is their knowledge limited? At some point here, Nestor says, but death is universal. Even gods cannot protect the people that they love when fate and cruel death catch up with them.

Menelaus' Story

18:48Well, fate, you know, that comes a couple times. Also, when Proteus, the old sea god, is talking to Menelaus, it's like there is this fate that they seem kind of bound to follow, but there's a lot of flexibility within that and how much they can make you suffer or reward you or fuck you over or within that. But then there's certain, like, major points that have to happen and they're, like, almost servants of fate. It's complicated, but it seems like they're servants of that fate.

19:20And it's not entirely unbreakable, but it's really a problem to go against it. Interesting. And weirdly, what I just quoted, I didn't realize, is actually Athena speaking while she is mentees, of all things. Why did she go back? Is that a misprint? I was wondering the same thing. I was looking in the footnotes to try to find that out. Like, just to fuck with everybody, did she turn to mentees again from Mentor? I don't know. Yeah, it would make you feel better if it was Mentor. Yeah, it makes more sense. Like, that was the whole point. Like, Mentor was on it and then at the end of book four you see one of the people.

19:55It's like, I saw Mentor on the ship and then there he was in town. How is that possible? But yeah, I wonder if that's a misprint or not. I don't see why she would just very briefly flash into being mentees. But what's also funny is Telemachus is very pessimistic throughout this. Even as he's gathering strength and becoming more mature and confident in his speech, he's still always saying he must be dead, you know, like he and the gods can't save them. And then Athena's like, the goddess spoke, Telemachus, what do you mean?

20:27A god can easily save anyone at will, no matter what the distance. I would rather suffer immensely but then get home safe than die on my return like Agamemnon, murdered by his own wife and by Aegisthus. It just throws that in. But death is universal. Even gods cannot protect the people that they love when fate and cruel death catch up with them, as you said. So it is a little defensive there. Yeah. She's like, hey, we can't do everything. Come on. Come on, guy. Yeah. And again, it's like they're passing off the responsibility to fate at that point.

20:57But he's fated to come home. So like that doesn't even really explain it. And that upsets him. Yeah. He says, change the subject. He has no real chance of getting home now. So Nestor tells now, again, like one variation of the story of Agamemnon coming home. And I like that he said, moreover, when her husband went to Troy, he left a poet, ordered to protect her. And he's like, oh, well, if he left a poet, like, how could you expect anything bad to happen? But finally fate forced the queen to yield.

21:30So again, it's like. Like capital F fate. Yeah. Yeah. I just don't think it's clear that that's what's happening in these cases. I think there's a lot of passing the buck. Absolutely. It's that old saying that if God didn't exist, we would have to invent him. It's like they need the explanatory power for like why she finally like gave in. Well, it's fate. It's fate. Yeah. But they don't always do that either. But it's cool. And you see just the way Nestor and Pisistratus are acting. Like Telemachus is just saying this is how like a kingdom should be run.

22:03This is how it goes, where everything is clicking on all cylinders and people are saying the right things, doing the right things, sacrificing them, you know, when they're supposed to. And the kids are getting married. Like Pisistratus, the only unmarried child of Nestor at this point. And yeah, of course, there's grief. Antilochus, who's kind of a supporting character in the Iliad. He died in the Trojan War. And that's very sad for, but they really are like things are just good in Pilos. Yeah.

22:33So, you know, to hear toward the end when Nestor, Nestor is almost putting a hat on a hat. And that very day, Rambuctious Menelaus arrived with his ship's crammed full of treasure. The moral is you must not stay away too long, dear boy. When those proud suitors lurk inside your house. Now I'm sensing some judginess where he's just like, you shouldn't let it get this bad, man. You know, you're right. And I've never really picked up on that. But I also picked up on that a little bit reading it this time. It's just a little bit of like, oh, you're letting this happen?

23:04Oh, and now you're here? Like they could be like marrying her right now. What are you doing? Right. Look, Orestes, he took care of business, you know, like just saying. But yeah, he gets him off to go to Sparta and he offers this big team. But it's just Pisistratus that goes with him. Yeah. So he gives him some horses and sends him on his way. Yeah. And I mean, we are like, I guess King Nestor is supposed to be this wise old man.

23:34He's ruled for three generations. And so it sounds like that's just what Tsalmikus needed to hear. Yeah. But I think you're right. And I like thinking of it that way, that he's also a little judgy in the way an old person can be. Like, you know, you're living with your boyfriend, you know?

23:51Okay.

23:54Yeah. I fought in World War II. Yeah. One thing you get also is he gets the first of several just girls washing him, bathing him in olive oil, rubbing him down in olive oil, including Nestor's eldest daughter. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Like, Tsalmikus was being washed by Nestor's eldest daughter, Polycaste. When she had washed and rubbed his skin with oil, she dressed him in a tunic and a fine cloak.

24:25Like, things are looking up for Tsalmikus. Like, that's never happened to him before. And now it's happening, like, a bunch of different times. Right. So, okay, so Athena, you know, makes herself known by turning into an Osif rage. And the Nestor's like, oh, boy. Like, now it's really, I believe you. Then they're like, we got to sacrifice a heifer for Athena. We have to appease her. Oh, and this is the scene that you were talking about before. Like, they, like, get a guy, like a goldsmith, to pour gold onto the heifer's horn, and then

24:57they pour it on the horns, and then they just, very detailed, slicing through the sinews of the neck until the cow's paralyzed. Dear sons, now hurry up. Fulfill my wishes. First, we must appease Athena, who revealed herself to me during the holy feast. Now, one of you must run down the fields to choose a cow and let the herdsman drive her back, and another go to Tsalmikus' ship and bring the men, leave only two behind. And so he's just kind of, like, issuing out orders to everybody. Everything knows where to go. This is what I mean by clicking on all cylinders. It's like, tell the girls inside to cook a royal feast.

25:29You could see it in, like, a Coen Brothers movie. It'd be like a movie producer or something being like, dude, you on this, you on this, you on this, you on this, you on this. And it's just, like, it's really good for Tsalmikus, I think, to see that. And then they all do it also. And then you have the Apocalypse Now scene. Yeah, it's great. Animal Sacrifice is just interesting. It's like, what's going on there? Like, who was like, you know what? We need to kill an animal to abuse a god. There's some thought that maybe this is recreating, like, the creation story.

26:01You know, a lot of these old creation myths are, like, something died in order to, like, make the world out of their body. Like, the world came from something, like... To what the world was created by? Yeah, in some accounts. Like, a god dies and, you know, turns into the earth. But in some cases, there are, like, these... Like, there is this tradition of the bull that is sacrificed that creates the world. So, maybe. But I think it's sometimes as, I don't know, pedestrian as... They don't eat the gods, but they like the smell of the meat.

26:34And that comes up to them. And what I always found symbolic about it is, obviously, like, it's valuable for them to have the meat. And that they're burning it all for the gods. You're just wasting it on them, who can't even eat it. It's like a sign of submission or something. It's like you're... It's a real cost. It's a costly signal, yeah. Costly signal, exactly. Yeah, I'm sure. Whatever, like, the original origins were. Like, it takes on so much meaning in so many other traditions. Like, who knows? I always like to reduce everything to, like, the evolutionary explanation.

27:07But you like the mystery. Like, the creation myths and stuff like that. I just have no patience for that. I like thinking of the golden horns, you know, becoming the mountains of Earth. It's a tough scene, you know. Yeah, it really is. And the kids are all involved, too. Yeah. I wonder if you're going to think about that next time you eat a hamburger. Probably not. I do, I do. So then they go to Sparta, and they get there.

Helen's Entrance

27:33And one of the things you first learn about Menelaus is he is rich. He has a lot of money. He has, like, ditty-level money. And, like, likes to show it. But yet he's holding, like, a double wedding. And he can't give them each their own wedding. Well, yeah. And one of his daughters is going to marry Achilles' son. So, you know, forging this alliance, which was rocky between those two families before. I'm actually curious, like, what do you get from Menelaus only knowing him from this?

28:06I don't know. Like, I got the rich part, for sure. Like, the emotion that I got most of all was of, like, a cool husband to Helen. Really? Kind of chill. Yeah. He seems like a gracious host and kind of man-animous. For sure. Like, when he's like, yeah, how dare you refuse these strangers? Like, bring them in. Yeah. He's like, god damn it. Very generous. Like, right? Yeah. Yeah. That's like a 40s kind of like, hey, boss, there's these people outside. Should I let them in? Why don't you say so? Yeah.

28:37Smacks them on the head. Go invite them in. Yeah. So, I think he does give that off. The cool husband part we have to talk about. Because I think there's a lot of passive aggressiveness in Joe. But just in this, between him and Helen, I think, especially in the first half before Helen just says, fuck it, I'm drugging them. Yeah, I want to talk about that, yeah. It's interesting because in the Iliad, he's a little brother, you know, to Agamemnon, who himself is an extremely flawed, if not downright unsympathetic character.

29:08And Menelaus is kind of his little brother who's also, it's clear, and Achilles says this many times, that he's kind of a coward. He hangs back on the battlefield. He has his moments, but having read the Odyssey before I read the Iliad, I think a couple of times, just because of how it shook out, I was very surprised to see Menelaus in the Iliad, how he was, given this, what I thought of, a picture of somebody who seems bigger than Nestor. Like, maybe it's the wealth, and maybe it's being married to Helen and all that.

29:40But he also seemed magnanimous, he seemed like he could handle it. Yeah, yeah. So maybe, like, this is showing that whatever he went through, you know, he had to take the place of his big brother, and now he's, like, he's the head of the family. And he's taken over. But, at the same time, he, yeah, as he says, he spends a lot of the time weeping during the day. Yeah, like, all of these characters, when they start telling the stories of what happened, they go from, like, big and domineering and confident to, like, there's this vulnerability and sadness.

30:14Like, you could just really get the sense that they're telling a war story, and, like, they would rather forget all of those terrible things that happened. And it really does seem to capture, to me, something that must be real about people who have been through some real shit. Absolutely. And once you start talking about it, it's hard to stop talking about it. It's hard to contain your emotions, and you start to relive it. I think that comes across with both of them, but maybe especially Menelaus. So let's get to that. One thing I wanted to say is you can see that Telemachus is not quite there yet in terms of his development.

30:50When he first gets to Menelaus' palace, and he's like, holy shit, look how nice this is, all this silver, gold, and amber, and ivory. And he says, it's as full of riches as the palace of Zeus on Mount Olympus. And then Menelaus hears him, and he's, like, immediately, like, oh, no, no, no, no mortal, my dear boys, can rival Zeus. Like, he's already worried about Zeus, like, hearing that, and, like, oh, this motherfucker thinks his palace is as nice as mine. Maybe a thunderbolt can cure him of that belief.

31:22But then he's like, no, God, I mean, maybe another man, probably not, but, like, you know, yeah, I probably am the best among men. But then he's like, how much I've suffered for it. And, like, here's the first what I take to be passive-aggressive, like, little jibe at Helen. It's not even passive-aggressive. He says, whoever they may be, your fathers have surely told you how much I have suffered. I lost my lovely home, and I was parted for many years from all my splendid riches. Poor you. And then he says, I wish I had stayed here with just a third of all the treasure I have now acquired if those who died at Troy so far away from Argive pastures were alive and well.

32:02I sit here in my palace mourning all who died, often weeping. But the implication there is if he stayed home, like, there's no Helen coming back. Yeah, see, I hadn't even thought, like, of course, now that you're saying that, like, of course, the war was fought for Helen. Like, it just, for some reason, wasn't entering my mind when I was reading it. To me, it was like, oh, like, oh, shit, I shouldn't have gone and fought in that war. But, of course, like, she's right, I'm here, I'm right here. Well, she was upstairs, and then, like, within, like, 30 seconds, she's, like, coming downstairs, you know?

32:32Yeah. So one of the things we haven't mentioned is everybody's telling him how much he looks like Odysseus. And I think that's a big deal, too, that he is, it's not just that he's starting to feel that he can give speeches and talk in front of all these distinguished old people. But, like, he looks like him. Yeah. And Helen is the one that really confirms that. Yeah. She's, like, a little cougary. She, so, I love, her entrance here. Before we get there, by the way, what you said about how Tamakis is like, oh, look at all the golden arms.

33:04It really is, like, when you're a little kid and you see a limousine. Maybe this is just being a child of the 80s when you're like, a limousine. Holy shit. I wonder who's in there. Yeah, no, totally. So Helen's entrance. Yeah, it's great. As he was hesitating, Menelaus, you know, he clearly thinks this is Odysseus' son. And he is hesitating whether to say anything. And as he was hesitating, Helen emerged from her high-ceilinged, fragrant bedroom like Artemis. I like that it's had high ceilings. Yeah. Even then, they liked that. Yeah.

33:34So, who carries golden arrows, Adraste set a special chair for her, Alcipe spread upon it soft wool blankets, and Philo brought a silver sewing blanket given to her by Alcandre, the wife of Polybus, who lived in Thibes in Egypt, where people have extraordinary wealth. And just skipping down a little bit, she sat down and put her feet upon a stool and asked her husband, do we know who these men are who have arrived at our house? Because it's just such a great entrance, you know, like you just, you get, oh my God,

34:05this is the most beautiful woman in the world. She says, I never saw two people so alike as this boy and Telemachus, the son of spirited Odysseus, the child he left behind, a newborn baby. The day the Greeks marched off to Troy, their minds fixated on war and violence. They made my face the cause that hounded them. So, like, right, she's saying right there, like, you say you went to war for me, but you just wanted to go to war. You just wanted glory. You wanted all this wealth. You wanted all this. They made my face the cause.

34:37Yeah. They made my face the cause that hounded them. And, you know, high colored Menelaus, you wonder if he's like just flushing mad or whatever at this point. He says, yeah, I saw the likeness too. She doesn't respond to her saying, they made my face the cause that hounded them. He's like, yeah, he does look like Odysseus. I was thinking the same thing. I just completely missed that. Like, so funny. Oh, hold on, everybody. She's floating down with her fucking gold and her footstool and servants.

35:10Here she comes.

35:13Exactly. Hey, did you know your dad's fucked in an island because of this bitch right here? But yeah, they made my face the cause that hounded them, fixated on war and violence. Like, part of me is like, come on, man. Like, at least I appreciate that they went to war for you. Yeah. But yeah, maybe she's right. And then Pisistratus just knows the right thing to say. He was raised in a good household. He has a father. He has a father. Yeah. So now he started thinking of his brother and crying. And Menelaus is like, oh, you speak like a wise man.

35:45You're like someone much older than yourself. But of course, you're Nestor's son. He says, a lineage is easy to discern when Zeus spins out a life of happiness in marriage and in offspring. So he gave good luck to Nestor all his life. Yes, we will stop crying and turn our minds to dinner. And then we can talk. And here's where Helen's just like, okay, I'm drugging them. If we're going to be talking about the war and I was the one who started the war. I mean, this is how I interpret it anyway. Like, I'm going to give them this drug where they can't be sad or angry.

36:17Right. It says, Helen decided she would mix the wine with drugs to take all the pain and rage away. And I think she's worried she could be the target of that rage. Oh, interesting. Yeah. I love that Pistostratus is the one that says, it's sort of like a little ballsy to say, listen now to me, I disapprove of crying during dinner. Like, he's the one that's like, all right, let's stop with the like, bitch maid crying during dinner.

36:44It's fine to cry when someone dies. Well, also, he's young. You know, I think it's not as okay when you're young to cry as when you're old. Oh, yeah. He's like trying to like puff his chest up, I guess. Yeah. And I think also he's just showing off his knowledge of like proper manners. But yeah. So, yeah, she drugs them. And then now they can tell the stories without anybody crying or getting mad. Because here's some background about Helen, too, is so she leaves with Paris.

37:15But here's something I didn't know that I think I just learned from another lecture this semester. So, after Paris was killed, she married a different Trojan. So, she married Menelaus first, then Paris, then another Trojan, and then went back to Menelaus. So, Menelaus is both her first and fourth husband.

37:36Wow. Yeah. So, you know, it's tough being the most beautiful woman in the world, I guess.

37:45Do we have a Helen? Like, who's a Helen? Like, who's like brought down, like these great men? Who have people gone to war for? Yeah. And who's maybe acknowledged as the most beautiful woman in the world? It's got to be like an actress, right? Yeah. I don't know if we have like an obvious one now. Who would it have been, like at any time? I mean, like maybe at some point Marilyn Monroe or Elizabeth Taylor. Yeah. We need more Helens. Yeah. Everyone talks about how we don't have like real men and we don't have like, but we also

38:19need a Helen. People used to make Julia Roberts. That's who I was thinking maybe, Julia Roberts. I know, like I never saw it, but. You know who's my Helen? Who's your Helen? Kristen Dunst. I thought you were going to say Jen. I thought you were going to be like. Oh, I mean. No, she, Jen's my Penelope.

38:37Nice save. She is like-minded and clever. So now we're going to hear some really good stories. And you can see why she would want to drug people when she tells this story. So she tells the story of Odysseus sneaking into Troy, making himself look like a beggar. He beat himself, bruised his body badly and put a ragged cloak on like a slave, then shuffled through the enemy city streets. By the way, just note this.

39:08Note this story to the listeners, to you. Just note this story for, you know, what's to follow. Keep this story in mind. So he seemed a poor old beggar and crept through Troy like that. She swears an oath. She scrubs him with oil because everyone, I've never been scrubbed with oil in my whole life. But so he told Helen that like the Trojan horse plan. Then on his way back, the way she's telling it, he was just like killing, like Princess Bride style, just like killing a bunch of people. With his sword on the way back.

39:39How tough he was. Yeah. And then she says here that the Trojan woman keened in grief, but I was glad. By then I wanted to go home. By then, she says, I wanted to go home. I wished that Aphrodite had not made me go crazy when she took me from my country. Aphrodite didn't like drag her out of Sparta then. And made me leave my daughter in the bed. I shared with my fine, handsome, clever husband. This is where like the drug is. You can just see her patting him on the head when she says that.

40:10Exactly. And so now we get the famous Trojan horse story. And Menelaus tells this part of it. And again, the drug is huge at this point. Because when they were in the horse, he says, some spirit who desired to glorify the Trojans urged you on. Three times you went around the hollow belly, touching the hiding place and calling on all us Greeks by name. You put on different voices for each man's wife. So she knows about the Trojan horse thing because of Odysseus. And she is trying to coax them all out.

40:42Yeah, this was like confused the shit out of me. This is apparently a story to tell Telemachus how awesome your husband was. Like he clamped Anticholus's mouth shut during all of this and saved us all. What an incredible story. But really, this is about her just still trying to destroy all the Greeks there. So that's kind of interesting. Like, I don't mean to overplay the tension here, but like it is a very tense situation

41:13in the Helen Menelaus household because of all this. Right. And then Telemachus, like he's just like, oh, God, my dad is this huge hero. I can't take this. And then he says, show us to bed. We need the comfort of being lulled into a sweet, deep sleep. Right. And he, again, he just assumes in this that his father is dead. Yeah, still. Yeah. Like even after getting kind of chided by Athena from it. Right. Okay. So then the next morning, it's like they go to sleep.

Telemachus' Growth

41:44The next morning, Telemachus, I like that he takes like a deep breath, right? And he gives this speech about how he just, I got to know. Like you were saying, everyone's being a little cagey. Yeah. And he's like, just tell me, don't try to think of my feelings. Just tell me the God's honest truth. Is he dead? Like if he ever did anything to help you, just tell me the honest to God truth. Because like, this is what's going on right now. Like you got to know this is what's going on.

42:14My whole home is full of men who mean me harm. And Menelaus is like, those fucking cowards. They want to steal the bed of one whose heart is braver than their own. So he's like, feels protective and then tells this wild story of his journey. So Menelaus is actually kind of an encouraging example for Telemachus because he came back after seven years, you know? Like, so people have probably given up hope on him too. And wherever he is, he got stuck. The gods wouldn't give him any wind because he failed to offer.

42:47This is the perfect hecatombs. Hecatombs or whatever those things are. I don't know what that is. You got to offer the perfect hecatombs. Like that's obvious. A great public sacrifice originally of a hundred oxen. Yeah. So he has to do, yeah, this huge sacrifice. But then he meets the daughter of the old sea god Proteus. And she's just pacing all alone. What are you doing on this island? I'm trapped. And so she just kind of tells him how to trap her dad.

43:17And it's just funny. It's like, if you can just pin this guy down, then he'll have to tell you everything. Yeah. He's going to like try to shapeshift a bunch. Just like keep holding him down. Just keep holding him down. He's going to like, he's going to change into like a fucking lion, a bull. Just keep holding him down. Yeah. Yeah. He'll change shape to every animal on earth and then water and holy fire. You just have to keep holding. It really reminds me of Jacob and the angel in that sense. Totally. Just wrestling and you just have to keep doing it until they give up.

43:49Force a blessing out of him. Yeah. Force a blessing out of him. In this case, force the truth. Like, how do I get home? What happened to everybody I know? And I like, you know, you have to wait till he goes and counts his seals. And he'll count them like a shepherd among his flock of sheep. That's when you can get him. And so they do. And he tells him how to get home. I like how, though, what he tells him is like, which God is mad at me? Yeah. He's like, I know I'm stuck here because the wind isn't blowing. It's like this little island off of Egypt. Yeah. He's like, I know I'm stuck here because some God is like mad at me.

44:21Which one is it? So that I can like appease him. Like, who do I have to contact? So he tells him about Ajax and that. And again, like, it's probably the fifth mention of Aegisthus and Menelaus. But here, you know, Menelaus is telling the story of hearing about it for the first time. And you get more of the details here of what happened. And I like the Proteus, like, don't make me tell you this story. But he has to once he swore the oath. And then I like what Telemachus does here with the gifts.

44:55So it's a big deal. This is something like when you have a guest, you have to give them a gift. And he wants to give him these horses. And Telemachus says, you know, we just don't have the fields to feed horses. But we love it just the same. So ends up getting like the bowl, like a really beautiful bowl. Only give me treasure. He also hears for the first time that Odysseus is on Calypso's island. Yeah, right. He gets the story. So, like, somebody knows. He had to go to a couple different places. But he finally...

45:25And now that's what he wanted to know. And now he's ready to go. And he's negotiating a way to get out of there without having to stop back at Nestor's. Like, he's navigating this. I think this is a big sign that he's come into his own. Because nobody's helping him. Athena's not helping him here. Where he's like, I don't want to have to go back to Nestor. Because then he'll get to make me sleep over there. He wants to make sure that, you know, Menelaus is still happy giving. You know, it's a big thing to give someone like an expensive gift.

45:57It's like an honor to be the giver in those situations. And he's getting the right gifts. He gets a bowl, that silver bowl that Hephaestus made. That's, you know, damn. Hephaestus made bowl. And, yeah, he's on his way back. Yep.

Meanwhile on Ithaca

46:15Meanwhile. Back in the... Outside it is. Back on Ithaca. What was that in the Super Friends? Yeah, yeah. Meanwhile at the Hall of Justice. So, meanwhile, back on Ithaca, the suitors are plotting a bad end for Telemachus. They're all upset. That this poor kid know him on. It's like, yeah, I gave him my ship. Sorry.

46:42Hey, guys. Does anybody know when he's coming back? What do you mean coming back? Oh, you know. I left my ship. He's like, oh. I need my boat back.

46:53Oh, yeah. And he went with all the best people except us. And then I saw a mentor. But maybe not mentor. Because then I saw him. It's weird because I saw him here. He could be a god, you know. So, yeah, and then Antinous, he's like, you know, definitely the, like, head evil suitor. It's like a sad end to this journey for his father is what he plots for him. Penelope finds out about this from, I guess, a loyal houseboy Medon and... Right, who's spying. There's a lot of people just listening in on stuff. Yeah, a lot of people spying.

47:24I feel like in the ancient world you could never really talk about anybody. Like somebody would be listening. Well, this is going to come into play in a big way later on. So, I'm glad you're alert to that. Because, yes. I like, by the way, how, like, at least the translation. Damn, that stuck-up boy succeeded in his stupid trip. We thought he could not manage it. Yeah. I would have gotten away with it. I would have married Penelope if it wasn't for that stupid kid. Yeah, so Penelope gets... This is actually a really cool scene.

47:56So, Penelope is told that they're plotting to kill him. This is news to her that he even left. And she's devastated. So, Eurycleia, who's her kind of main housemate who also brought up Odysseus, she confesses that, you know, she knew about it. But she swore an oath not to tell Penelope. And she's like, you could kill me, but I got to be honest. That's what I did. Yeah. Then there's this very cool scene with she prays to Athena. And Athena sends, like, a ghost.

48:28But, like, an apparition made to look like Iphthimi. Who I don't know who she is. The wife of Eumelus, who lived in Pirae. Yeah, so I guess it's someone that could come to her house, maybe. Yeah, I was like, is that somebody who died? Is she supposed to be, like, the ghost of somebody? But then she says, Penelope says, like, why have you come here? Your house is far and you've never visited before. And why would you be coming in the middle of the night into my bedroom, you know? In her bedroom, stood above her head and asked,

48:59Penelope, are you asleep? And are you still upset? It would not freak you out a little bit. Can you imagine? Open your eyes and there's just this phantom looking like a woman. Wait, oh, so this is interesting. Intelligent Penelope, still sleeping sweetly inside the gates of dreams, replied. So this is a conversation in the dream. Sister, why have you come? Your house is far. You've never visited before. So that makes more sense that it's a dream. And the misty phantom answered her,

49:29Have courage. Let not your heart be troubled or afraid. He has a goddess as his guide. Athena, a helper many men have prayed to have. She has great power. I hear she's awesome. Yeah, exactly. She's got a whole PR team, Athena. And then, careful, Penelope. If you are actually a god with news from the gods, tell me about my husband too, poor man. Tell me if he's alive and sees the sun or dead already in the house of Hades. And I love what she says here, the spirit. I cannot tell you whether he is alive or dead. It is not good to speak of things intangible as wind.

50:04Schrodinger's Odysseus. Exactly. Like, I think that's right. It's Schrodinger's Odysseus. And, like, I remember titling a lecture intangible as the wind because I think, like, there is something about Odysseus, as we'll see. We meet him the next book. And, you know, like, it's worth thinking at times about this line, whether he's alive or dead, intangible as wind. Yeah, it's such an interesting way to open the story, like, with these four chapters where we only hear about him.

50:35It's, like, really a good way. Like, he does feel liminal, to use our favorite word. Yeah. Like, it does seem like he is an idea in people's heads at this point, and maybe no more than that. That's right. And, like, from Telemachus' perspective, if you think about him, he has only the faintest glimmer of what Odysseus was from living just in Ithaca with only his mother, who hasn't seen him for 20 years, you know.

51:07And so he just has these little hints about what that might be, but he really has no idea. And Ithaca's kind of in this stultifying state right now, so it's hard for him to glean anything from what's going on in Ithaca about his dad. And then you get a little when he talks to Athena at first, then more when you go to see Nestor, and then you get some really famous Odysseus stories in book four. So by the time we actually meet him, he's been built up, like, both for Telemachus but also for us.

51:38Yeah, totally. And I like that progression because it also says something about, yeah, what's going on in Ithaca, where it seems as if the community's cowardice has made it such that nobody wants to talk about him. Because they're probably just ashamed. And so, like, Telemachus has grown up really not being able to hear these stories, like, or learn about his father because people are just like, let's not talk about that. And Penelope even says, like, he was a good king. Like, what's wrong with everybody that they're doing this? So it's really important for him just as a formative experience to gain confidence of how to navigate all the, you know, complicated norms, what to say, how to tactfully move, you know, be able to get home when I want to go home without insulting anybody, without insulting any gods.

52:24He figures that out. But then also, I think he's resolving real questions about, like, who his father was in his mind, which isn't to say that Odysseus now is, like, what he was in these stories. Because like you say, he's an idea. Right. And apparently he's just been like a sex slave for 10 years on this island, you know, getting his life force drained by Calypso. Yeah, we're going to hear about that in the next book. Yeah. And the last thing we learned, though, is that the suitors get on board and, like, get out to a rocky island between Ithaca and same, another island, waiting, lurking.

53:05Yeah, to ambush him. Yeah. He's got a god, you know, looking out for him. So, yeah. I just don't trust these gods, man. No. They're so spurious. Rightly so, I think. Like, you never know when they're going to turn on you. You're always, like, one little thing away from, like, getting totally, like, your fucking innards being eaten out by, like, a bird of prey every night. Yeah, like, forever, for all eternity. Yeah. So, when we come back, we'll go to Calypso's island and Odysseus will finally start his journey home.

53:38Is Calypso hot? According to Calypso, she is.

53:44Much hotter than Penelope. But, yeah, I'm team Penelope. All right, join us next time on Tentatively, the Odysseators. Let's go.

54:25Let's go. Let's go. Let's go.