Episode 331: Who's Your Law Daddy? (Plato's "Crito")

Introduction

0:00Very Bad Wizards is a podcast with a philosopher, my dad, and psychologist Dave Pizarro, having an informal discussion about issues in science and ethics. Please note that the discussion contains bad words that I'm not allowed to say, and knowing my dad, some very inappropriate jokes. We don't need to do nothing.

0:22We do what we do is... Entiendes, Mendes?

0:30The Great End Boss has spoken!

0:37Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!

0:45Who are you? Who are you? I'm a very bad man. I'm a very good man. Good man.

0:56They think deep thoughts, and with no more brains than you have. Pay no attention to that man.

1:06Anybody can have a brain.

1:10You're a very bad man. I'm a very good man. Just a very bad wizard.

Welcome to Very Bad Wizards

1:17Welcome to Very Bad Wizards. I'm Tamler Summers from the University of Houston. Dave, there's a new Russiagate. But this time, it's not Trump or Putin at the center of the scandal. It's you. On our last episode, you called Russia in the mid-1800s a Catholic country. But some of our listeners vociferously disagreed, saying it was Eastern Orthodox. How do you respond to these shocking allegations? Well, I'll fucking die on this hill.

1:52Eastern Orthodox is fucking Catholic. The Catholic Church split in two. And if anything, I feel like it's prejudice against the poor Easterners who, you know, they got like half of the church, but they don't get to be called Catholic. Like, it's the same fucking church. They just had a fight, you know? They're not Protestants. I mean, Protestants had a fight, too. Yeah. But Protestants left. Like, these guys were like, fuck it. Like, your pope is the wrong pope. Our pope is the right pope. Like, we are the Catholic Church. This is like St. Peter's, like, true lineage.

2:24So, I'm just saying, it's called the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church. That's all I'm saying. If you want to use the narrow sense of Roman Catholic because you watch The Sopranos and you like Italians so much or whatever, like, fine, go ahead. But don't correct me, you know? He doesn't like that. He doesn't take kindly to that. I would just let it go and say, yeah, I guess, you know, it's not the most natural way of using Catholic, but it is technically. But Dave gets very, like, your Latin American blood gets hot.

2:54Yeah. It's only for some things. I don't know what it's for exactly. Maybe it was the flippant nature of the admonishment. Because if somebody said, hey, I don't think Catholic is used that much for Eastern Orthodox, like, so it was a little confusing. I'd have been like, yeah, maybe it's a little confusing. I, you know, because I edited it kind of, it sounded a little weird to me too, but like taking it out would have been awkward because it was, you were making a point about why a cock, a cock, a cock, a cockovich or cocky cockovich, like, you know, that story about

3:25his name. And I was going to look up whether that was true or not. But then I was like, I forgot. I figured you know what you're doing.

3:35I mean, for the record, in my mind, as I said that, I was like, well, hopefully people understand that I mean Eastern Orthodox Catholic. Like, it literally was in my mind, as I said. Yeah. And you called it Eastern Orthodox later in the episode, too. It's not like I didn't know. Yeah. Hopefully people will treat this with the generosity of the modern internet. You know, you're either with me or you're against me is all I'm saying. I was more like, my name is Paul. This is between y'all. If any of our listeners are Eastern Orthodox and they write in and say, we do not fucking

4:08think of ourselves as Catholic, I will stand corrected. Okay. I'll say that. Yeah.

Main Episode Introduction

4:12All right. With that out of the way, that bit of unpleasantness. Now we can go to our episode for today. In the main episode, it's another education that you will get in our Back to Basics series. Back to Basics. Back to Basics in 80s font. You always have to think of it in 90s font. And we are going to be discussing Plato's dialogue, The Crito, which is a dialogue that takes place when Socrates is in prison a couple days before he is scheduled to drink the hemlock and die,

4:48which, spoiler alert, he does. Got to die of something. But this is a dialogue where one of his friends tries to convince him to escape. And, well, we'll have to wait till the second segment to see what happens.

Contrarian Corner Introduction

5:03But first, we are going to do, what would you call this? Contrarian corner. That's good. That's pretty good. Cinema edition. That's awesome. That was just off the top of your head. It was off the dome, baby. How about Catholic contrarian corner? Yeah, I think mine is more Eastern Orthodox. But yeah, contrarian corner cinema edition is great. My thought was something like the Aladdin meme where all the knives are, you know, like

5:35top three movies where you're the Aladdin meme, but yours is way better.

5:41I mean, that's a good artwork for contrarian corner. Yeah, yeah, right.

Picking Movies to Dislike

5:46All right. So we're picking three movies that we are in the minority about. Like, how did you think about this? Well, it started with you texting me your opinion about a particular movie. And so I was like, that'd be fun. Which will come up. Yeah. It's hard because like there's always going to be critics of every movie. But these are things that I think just generally like popular, like high critics ratings across the board, possibly award winners, crowd favorites, things that make people's top lists all the

6:18time that we think of as ass. Yeah. Or if not ass, just so overrated. The way I thought about it is these are ones where I might be on probation or suspended or in one case, my number one, maybe permanently expelled from the cinephile community. Like these are cinephile movies that I've picked that I just can't get behind like everybody else.

6:48Yeah. I do want to walk back my ass thing because if anything, I think the movies that I'm talking about are harmed by their overrating because like if they weren't overrated, they'd be decent. But in looking things up, I was like, I'm not cinephile enough to have things that are going to get me kicked out of any anything. You like to do that. I'm just a caveman. Meanwhile, you're texting me about like, oh man, I just saw the friends of Eddie Coyle. That shit rules. You know, that's a classic cinephile movie. My former student, Andres Montalegro, put me onto that.

7:21It's good, right? It's fun. Good. Yeah. All right. Why don't I start with one that is clearly not going to get me kicked out of anything? But it's an opinion that at the time I had immediately after watching the movie. And I think that the world has come around to this, but you tell me. Forrest Gump.

7:38You like it? I mean, no. Just like, I feel like that's not one for this. That's because you're too hoity-toity. You don't realize how many people love this shit. And not to mention that it won Best Picture. I mean, Crash won Best Picture. That wouldn't mean it could be in this list, right? No, but I feel like Forrest Gump belongs. All right. So you don't like it. Why? Life is like a box of chocolates? No? Yeah. Like, it's simple in that way. Like, I don't like it because of something that I think is, I think, a more substantive

8:10criticism. Like, obviously, it's emotion candy. And it's like, let's make you feel good about all these terrible events in the world that happened by putting this mentally challenged guy smiling and shaking hands. But I really disliked, like, it felt like a nihilistic movie to me in the wrapping of a feel-good movie where everything just weirdly by coincidence happens to this, like, kind of, you know, like- You can say retarded now. Yeah, you can say it now.

8:40And, like, it didn't happen because he's particularly good, like, or he's particularly talented or anything like that. It's just literally just sheer fucking fate. But, like, generally, it's the kind of emotional schlock that I think is, you know, doesn't make for good movies, but occasionally makes for Oscar-winning movies. Yeah. I mean, like, you're better off not liking Forrest Gump to be in the cinephile club than liking Forrest Gump. There are jokes in other movies about, like, how much people hate Forrest Gump.

9:12See, that's why I'm saying I am just a caveman. I'm minor, not aimed at cinephiles. Like, you know, these are, like, these are aimed at, like, the people I grew up with who think, like, Forrest Gump is amazing. Is American Beauty going to be your next one? Like, uh- Great film. Great film. I guess I just have friends who like watching movies aimed for the normal people. There's actually, in This Is The End, you know, that movie? Yeah. They talk about this, where Craig Robinson says to Jay Baruchel, you're the kind of person, you're a hipster, you probably don't like Forrest Gump.

9:47You're Jay, right? Yeah. Seth boy? Yeah. Hey, how you doing? Good to see you. Likewise. Likewise. Craig, man. It's Emma. Oh, hi. Hi there. You just in town? Visiting him? Yeah. Just for little visits, you know. I'm trying to not come down here very much. I don't really love it here. You don't like L.A.? I'm just not really into the L.A. lifestyle. What lifestyle are you into? Look at him. He's like a hipster, right? No. No. No, I'm not a hipster at all. Yeah. Yeah. You do seem to hate a lot of things. And the bottom of your pants are awful tight.

10:19You know, I just, I don't like Los Angeles. That's, it doesn't make me a hipster. I bet you hate movies that are universally loved. I don't even. You like Forrest Gump? No. No, it's a horrendous piece of shit. Life is like a box of chocolates, no? Yeah, no, I'm familiar with it. You never know what you're going to get. And he says, Emma Watson from, you know, Hermione is there at this party, but she's as Emma Watson. She goes, life is like a box of chocolates, no? Which is a very like something that we say all the time in the house.

10:54The thing is, movies like this every once in a while come back around for a certain kind of hipster. Totally. I could see that happening. Truman Show is actually, I mean, not, I just blew my name. Forrest Gump is actually good, is, I bet that, it might have even gone a couple cycles. I think yours that you just edited out is in the same category. I was going to say. So my pick is, I don't think it's in the same category, but it's close, certainly closest to that than my other two.

Discussing The Truman Show

11:24And it is The Truman Show. The Peter Ware film from, I believe, 1998, starring Jim Carrey, Laura Linney, Ed Harris. I saw this when it came out and I didn't really like it. And like, I was a pain in the ass back then. Like, I could be snotty about a movie with no good reason, except that I was being kind of an asshole about it. And so I thought this was a good candidate for that, based on the fact that like a lot

11:55of the, you know, critics that I respect and film podcasts, they all feel extremely positively about this movie. So then I watched it for the first time again this past weekend. And actually, like, I thought the first like 45 minutes to an hour were really good. And I was like, okay, I was just a piece of shit back then. But then, I don't know, like, there's something about it that just doesn't work for me. Like, the sort of high concept, the horror elements of it, I was really appreciating.

12:26But when it, you know, again, towards the end, it just like, it doesn't make sense anymore. And then when you think about it for like 30 seconds afterwards, you're like, well, what is this world exactly where you could do this like massive social experiment? Every time they show the outside world, it's just normal people in a bar, you know, like in their houses, like, but then like, you would have to be some kind of psychopath to be a part of this. Like, think of these actors, one of whom was chosen when he was like five years old or six years old to be friends with him and to go to school with this guy.

12:59And like their parents did that. And, you know, someone on Letterboxd was like, I don't think you're supposed to get all logical about this. But it doesn't present itself as like a kind of surreal movie or a dreamy movie. Like, it presents itself as, you know, like a reality. Obviously, not Truman's world is not a reality. But I think to heighten that, they give the outside world, the glimpses that we see is very recognizably seems like our world. And I know that's probably part of the point and the satire of all that, but it doesn't

13:31work. And the main thing that I really can't stand is the end where Kristoff, the director played by Ed Harris, who is... With his little fucking hat. Yeah. I like Ed Harris a lot. I love Ed Harris. And he's not bad in it. Like, I don't think this is his fault, but the stuff he does doesn't make any sense. Like, Truman knows that it's a TV show or he starts to suspect it and has been suspecting it for a while. But at least with there's 30 or 40 minutes to go, he knows it's a TV show and he's trying to leave and they keep figuring out ways to keep him there.

14:03And then at the end where he definitely knows it's a TV show and he's, you know, on the boat, like conquering his fear of the water, which they have put in him. And that's supposedly totally fine world. He's literally like tries to drown him. Kristoff, the Ed Harris character does. And then when he hits the wall where it's like, OK, it's not a horizon. It's actually the edge of the studio wall. He's still trying to get him to come back for what? Like, the whole point of this show is that he thinks it's real. If he thinks he's in a TV show, it's not a show anymore.

14:35It betrays his grand vision of, like, what it's going to be. So it just makes no sense. His motivations make no sense. Like, I don't get it. Like, I don't understand why people think this is, you know, it's prophetic. Prescient, Tamler. Prescient. Yeah. So, I mean, I don't, like, it's a pretty anodyne movie to me. Um, but I do remember, like, having good feelings when everybody's rooting for him. You know, they're all watching him live and they're all rooting for him to leave. The same people who were fine with them thinking that because of him, his father died drowning.

15:08Yes. So that he would say those same, like, lovely people. The audiences are fickle. Yeah, yeah. They're fickle. I know. And that's what annoys me, too, is people saying, that's the point. That's how we are, you know? Like, what I was going to say is, it's like a reality TV Rudy. Like, have you seen Rudy? The reality TV one? Oh, the sports movie. No, no. The sports movie. Uh, yeah. Long time ago. Where, you know, everybody's rooting for him. Yeah. You know, he sucks. Yeah. That's how, like, I'm feeling at the end of that, where it's like a reality TV version, where it was just like, yeah, yeah, go guy who took 30 whatever years to figure out

15:40that you were on a reality TV show. But then what I was going to say is, do you know about this show, The Jury? Yes. I saw that season, actually. Oh, you did? Yeah. I haven't watched it. But, like, all of the things you were saying about, like, are the fucked up ethic, the ethics of people who have to just completely lie about their lives in order for this one person to be, like, um, it's microcosm-y of Truman Show. Yeah. No, for sure. And, you know, like, listening after my initial sort of reaction to it, I listened to a couple of things, and they said some of the things that came after The Truman Show, and they sounded

16:17like horrible. And then I remembered, uh, what's it called? Uh, Jury Duty. Jury Duty. Yeah, I remembered that. And I remember thinking, that's kind of fucked up that they're doing it. And I do think it's fucked up. And I'm sort of surprised that it's legal or how they do around it. Yeah, me too. But, you know, it's like the Borat or, you know, like, but it's not a person's whole life. And in particular, it's not an actor's whole life. Like, these actors have to, like, be there practically the whole time. Like, they might get, like, a little vacation. And then often, they're called in to do some more fucked up, manipulative stuff to keep

16:53him there so that he doesn't think it's real. And it's like, and for his best friend, Marlon, this is something his parents signed him up for when, when he was five. And it's like, okay, so this is some, like, horrible dystopia, like some Japanese movie or something like that. It should be a lot darker than it is. Yeah. It would be an interesting, super dark movie. Yeah. And it's funny, because I blamed, I love Peter Ware. Like, I think Picnic and Hanging Rock is one of my favorite movies. And I really like Master and Commander. Master and Commander is good.

17:23Dead Poets Society, I'm sure, is in your top 10.

17:27That could go here, too. Except that I think, like, you know, a lot of people who call themselves cinephiles have mixed feelings about that movie. But Picnic and Hanging Rock is, like, one of my, like, 20 favorite movies of all time. And I like him a lot. So I blamed the writer, Andrew Nichol, who wrote and directed Gattaca, which I also really dislike for similar reasons, although I don't remember having, like, internal problems with the story and the motivation, just thinking it was not that interesting. But apparently, he tried to make it darker.

17:58That was the original script. It was going to take place in a fake New York that was, like, crime-ridden and stuff like that. And it was Peter Ware's idea to, like, no, this has got to be warm and funny. And, like, these are this comfort food for people. And that's the thing. Like, I just don't think this stuff is well thought out. Like, if it's comfort food and then they're all rooting, then it's not that they were originally laughing at him, but now they're rooting for him. They were always kind of liked him, you know? But then how are they okay with how they're doing it? And, like, what could have possibly compelled Laura Linney to just devote her whole life

18:31to this? Like, to doing ads conspicuously in the middle of, like, breakfast and to, like, practically spending her whole life pretending to be married to this guy? Yeah. I think that what we're hitting is a deep fear that you've always had, that we've all been Truman showing you. I do feel that.

18:50And if you want to know why, like, I'm getting paid a lot of money to do this, you know? You're only seeing half of our Patreon. I'm seeing, like, seven figures every month because of the dedication I've shown.

19:02You know, a lot of things are starting to make sense now. But the funny thing is, like, I am prone to, like, actually having the thought that you just said. I remember.

19:15I will agree with you that The Truman Show is confused about what it is. Because it's not that it's, like, unrealistic or whatever. Like, that would be a dumb, that would be, like, a very facile complaint. Yeah. It's that it is, like, on its own terms doesn't make sense. Yeah. It's internally incoherent, I think. Whereas I think Gattaca, like, I know Gattaca has, like, a little bit of a fake deep problem. Yes. But it's dark enough, like, I think that I've always enjoyed it. It makes sense. Okay. So my next one, like, I mean, I had this problem making this list where long-time listeners

19:46will already know this. Yeah. But this, to me, belongs in the Forrest Gump category, and that is Parasite. That's a good one. Now, that, I feel like, is in the spirit of this exercise. I feel like, in time, like, I will be vindicated for this opinion. But it's, like, a movie that just is too try-hardy, on-the-nose critique with, like, a bit of that fake deepness in there.

20:17Like, Snowpiercer has this, like, metaphor, you know, this, like, it's like an allegory where as you move forward on the train, like, you're going up in class. Like, at least that's so on-the-nose that you don't think that he's trying to, like, be clever about it. But Parasite, you know, with, like, the two poor families and the ones, like, the reveal that they were living in the house, like, that to me is just, like, a worse attempt. That there's even a lower class than a sort of hustler, working-class family. Yeah. And that they kind of turn against each other is, I think, part of that critique of how you

20:51turn the lower classes against each other. Like, as long as there's somebody below you, you just think, I'm good and I'm out for myself. Yeah. There's a little bit of poverty porn there. So here's where I disagree. Like, I think this is a great pick. Like, I respect the pick because I think it so clearly counts for this contrarian corner. Because everybody loved Parasite. And I am someone that really liked it. You know, like, do I think it's his best movie?

21:22No. Do I think Bong Joon-ho is, like, I think Bong Joon-ho is slightly overrated as a director, although I like him. But, like, I think, like, Park Chan-wook is in a different league than him. Different category. Yeah. But I really like that movie because it's just a fun ride. Like, it just keeps, like, surprising you in all these different ways. And, yeah, I think there is some interesting stuff about class in the movie. And I think it's not the obvious level stuff, which is practically as obvious as Snowpiercer.

21:54Yeah. Like, the middle family, before they move into the house, they live in this house that's, like, half their window is, like, they're half underground. So, it floods easily. And every time they go to the rich house, they have to walk up. So, all that is, you know, pretty obvious. But there's stuff about, like, the dad really liking the rich woman that he drives for, you know? Like, he starts having a crush on her and thinking she's nice and seeing the quiet desperation in her eyes and how his wife has no patience for that.

22:25Not because she's jealous, just because she has this line where, of course, she's nice. Like, rich people can afford to be nice, you know? And so, I think some of that stuff is good. And, yeah, I just like the surprises. But I respect the pick, 100%. Yeah. Yeah. You know, this is an unfair criticism to say that you won awards. But there is a kind of, like, Oscars favor, a sort of safe critique. Yeah. That's, like, kind of feels like it might be radical for, like, the Hollywood crowd. But, yeah. Yeah. I think, at the end of the day, I think that the art didn't hit me.

22:57Yeah. It'll be interesting to see what you think of Boots Riley's new movie. Yeah. Because, you know, Sorry to Bother You had a kind of similar, it was a little more absurdist, but, you know, not trying to hide its politics and doing it with a kind of comedy. And this one, his new movie, which I saw an advanced screening of, is, I think, up a level. It's interesting, because you're right about, like, there is, like, the critique is so, like, facing you, like, forward.

23:28Yeah. But the absurdist aspects of it, I think, is what, like, made me enjoy it. You know, and Snowpiercer also has absurdism. Yeah, right, right. And Parasite just did, for some reason, that it didn't evoke that in me. I don't know if he was going for that. Like, maybe it did in some people. It just didn't evoke it in me. Yeah. Yeah, fair enough. It's a different thing. You know, Snowpiercer is another one where Ed Harris, his character kind of makes no sense and harms the movie a bit. I forget what happens there. It's a similar part, actually. Like, he's, like, running the train.

23:58Like, he's the head guy in charge of, like, the kind of god of the train. That's so funny. I feel like allegory doesn't make for good art. Rarely, yeah. But I did, like, that's, I actually liked both of those movies. It's a snowpiercer, and... Yeah. Okay. So, you can be a cinephile and not be in love with Steven Spielberg, you know, the kind of schmaltz, the sentimentality and the, like, drawn-out endings and all that. And I think there's, most of his movies you cannot love and you're fine.

24:31You cannot like Schindler's List. It's a Holocaust movie, but you might think, you know... But the red dress. Right, exactly. And I think everything's fine. But I do think there's one movie, I mean, there's probably more than one. There's, like, Raiders of the Lost Ark, I think, everybody loves. But there's one movie that everybody loves, I think, or at least really likes and agrees as great and doesn't suffer the Spielberg problems. Everyone approves of this movie and thinks it's, like, a masterpiece.

25:02Can I guess? Yes. What do you think? I was going to go with Jaws, but I don't know that people think it's a masterpiece. But it's not Jaws, is it? Yes. It's Jaws. Good. Yeah. No. Totally. Totally. I think that's... You're absolutely right that, like, that's a Spielberg movie that is beyond reproach. Yeah. It's got, like, a 100% approval rating and the cinephiles revere it and think it was... See? Because he doesn't reveal the shark, you know? I didn't get that he didn't reveal the shark.

25:32Now that you say that, though... Yeah. Audiences were afraid to go to the beach that summer, Taylor. Yeah. This is another movie. Like, I don't think it's ass. But I also don't think it's good. Like, it's fine and there's some great scenes, but, like, this is something that's weird. And maybe this is a little like my issue with the Truman Show and maybe it's my problem. But I can't get past the mayor in the movie. Like, the mayor is just, like, willfully, like, damning his tiny town for the money, for the tourism.

26:07Like, yes, people are getting killed, but we're keeping the beach open. Like, he's so ridiculous. And I struggle to get past that. Now, I could if I fetishized as much as everyone else, like Robert Shaw and Richard Dreyfuss. And, like, you know, it's got this great cast, but even those scenes I find a little corny. And, yeah, like, I'm not into the characters. I respect the way it's shot, as always, with him. But I don't love it. Like, to me, it's like a B-minus movie. And I think to most people, it is a perfectly executed genre piece, you know?

26:41Yeah, no, that's good. Like, it's something Spielberg, I would think, is very proud of. Like, as a filmmaker, like, whatever he did with Jaws, like, changed the landscape. Yeah, which it did, for sure. But, like, what it changed matters. I've always, like, I haven't seen Jaws in decades, so I don't remember that much. But with Spielberg, like, it's hard for him to beat the charges of corny on a lot of his stuff. And just, you know, overly sentimental to the point of nausea sometimes. Yeah, but damn, he can shoot a film.

27:14Like, that camera movement and, like, the long takes on the faces that I think is there in Jaws. You know, like, the reaction shots. Like, that's good stuff. Yeah. Soderbergh famously did a cut of Raiders of the Lost Ark with no sound in black and white. And, like, to some, like, weird music that had nothing to do with the movie. Just to point out how you could tell everything that was happening, even if you didn't hear the sound. And, yeah, he's an expert craftsman.

27:45You know, like, he's someone that cinephiles have come around on. It used to be you could be cool and not like him. And now it's like, oh, actually, he's the greatest genius of them all. You know? And I just don't, like, I don't know. Like, there's not a single movie of his that would crack my top 100, though. I don't think. Maybe Raiders. Yeah. Raiders is definitely my favorite. Like, that is, to me, the perfect genre of film. Yeah. It's super fun. And I love it. And I've seen it probably 10 times. So maybe that would crack my top 100.

28:16Like, AI is my number four. I've never seen it. Is that good? No. Is it not? I saw it once. No, it's bad. It's, like, 18 hours long and doesn't go anywhere. That's another one that people like. Like, I was going to see it. They must have come back around to it. Yeah. They must have come back around to it. Yeah. I think it's through the looking glass with a bunch of his. You know, there's some that everybody likes, but I don't think a lot of people love, like, Minority Report, Catch Me If You Can. Those are good. But, you know, they're good. I feel like that's where those movies top out.

28:48All right. My last one.

Discussing Parasite and Other Movies

28:50If you are a Patreon supporter and you happen to listen to our Ask Us Anything series. I do not support this.

28:59I think Sinners is one of the most overrated movies in a long time. I'm so not with you on this. I don't understand it. Like, it's so weird. Like, I feel like I'm in a, like, I'm fucking being gaslit about this movie. You're in The Truman Show, maybe. Yeah. It's like a weird pastiche of stories put together that don't really make sense. It's, like, again, very, like, on the nose about the points that it's trying to make, even though, like, in the end, like, I'm not quite sure what those points are.

29:30So it's both those things at the same time. I mean, given that those two things are contradictory, that should signal to you that maybe it's not that on the nose. No, it's like trying to be on the nose, but it's like, what is the themes? Like, let me have, like, oh, here's an on the nose scene about how, like, you know, the history of black music, where I'm going to, like, in case you didn't get it, let me actually show you, like, the person from, like, the whatever, twerking, and then the person playing jazz, and the person, like, like, it doesn't trust its audience to, like, understand any subtlety.

30:07But that scene is just a joyous, surreal, supernatural, like, celebration. It's not trying to, like, hit you over the head with anything. Like, it's not saying, like, but the white man appropriated this music. It's just showing you, like, all these different generations at a time where this, like, woman who clearly is in touch with mystical spirits, like, literally talks about how the future and the past can merge under certain conditions. Like, I don't get your view on that scene. It's an awesome scene.

30:38Just say that you're, like, in touch with, like, the spirits of the ancestors and that you're, you know, prophetic about the future. But, like, to have to just sit there and show me, like, a person twerking from the 2000s. Like, it's, like, it's bad cinema. It's cinema. That's what they show you. It's about images. It's not about someone telling you something. No, it's about emotions. It's about, yeah, that's right. It's not about someone telling you something. Like, this movie feels like it's telling you something. It says the things so many times. It's, like, megaphoning. What? Like, the message about appropriation. About appropriation.

31:10About, like, you know, like. What is it saying about appropriation? Like, I don't get this. Well, what do you think it's saying with the relationship with music and, like, why the vampires are, like, getting this kid specifically? Like, what is it saying to you? I mean, this is the thing. It's a little hard to know because, you know, the Irish immigrants at the time who have their own kind of music and community feel that that actually is kind of tempting. And, yes, they're vampires, and I agree that it is probably about appropriation in some sense, but it's not clear, like, exactly how because I think it's, like, not on the nose in that way.

31:48I mean, that's the weird thing, right? Like, they're vampires. They're, like, they're finding the black kid who's the best at the music, and they're going to take him because of his talent. So, the vampires, like, okay, like, culture of vultures, you know, like, they're sucking, like, the musical power out of, like, the black kid. But why? Who knows? And so, yeah, it's not about white people because the actual bad people, like, by the way, remember the KKK guys that they bought that barn off of? Like, they actually hate black people for real. Like, so, like, let's have, like, a scene where he's going to just go fucking, you know, like, ape shit on the KKK at the end where it's, like, what movie is this?

32:21This is, like, it just lacks any kind of consistency. I agree that that is not my favorite part of the movie, and I kind of wish that, I mean, it didn't bother me like it bothered you, but I think it's an outlier in an otherwise, like, pretty flawlessly executed movie that is so much fun. How did that not bother you where all of a sudden it turns into this, like, weird action I'm going to shoot up all the KKK? Because it's, like, a five-minute scene at most in a two-hour and 30-minute movie. But it is, like, a crucial ending part of this story where it's, like, really, you're going to take the five minutes to show us this, like, Rambo-like guy shooting up the KKK when it's, like, not even part of the whole vampire Irish music thing?

33:03Look, I think it was to get people to walk out with a smile on their face. It's a bunch of fucking white supremacists are killed, but also to show that smoke—is it smoke that does that? That's another problem. Yeah. You know, it's definitely the more dour brother, you know? So, like, I think, like, he didn't want to live anymore in this world, and so what's a better way of going out than taking out a bunch of KKK guys? But, like, you know, part of why he didn't want to live in this world besides just the racism, the fundamental racism of Jim Crow South is that, like, his family just was, like, murdered and burned to death in a lot of cases and—or became vampires.

33:46So, like, that is, you know, that is kind of tough. Yeah. It's just weird that that's how you choose to, like, end the story. Like, to me, what that says is you just weren't quite clear on the story. And if you need to give your audience, like, a feel-good thing by having them kill a bunch of, like, actual villains, then it's like, well, I guess then you're just trying to make us feel good because you didn't trust that you could end the movie with us not feeling good? Like, I don't know. Like, what's—this is also surprising to me from you, of all people, where you're just, like, you would say—I would think, like, I could channel you as I'm watching this thinking, like, just end the movie on theme.

34:22Like, don't have, like— Well, then I think, like, the post-credit scene is a good ending of the movie where it's the 80s and Buddy—and it's not Buddy Guy. It's actually Sammy, but it's played by Buddy Guy in that club, and it's Haley Seinfeld, and he's an old man. And that's a really cool ending. And so that's how I left the movie, not with the KKK scene, which exactly—which, again, I didn't hate. I just think, like, in another cut of the movie, you could leave it out, and it would probably be a slightly better movie.

34:55Yeah. So here, like, it's important for me to end by, like, at least saying, I thought, like, the first half of the movie was great. I thought it was—the whole thing was shot beautifully. Yeah. But, like, I feel like it needed some discipline and some trust in its audience to just be able to be more subtle. Yeah. It's also, like, I upgraded my audio setup in my movie, and that was one of the first movies I watched, and holy shit, was that fucking awesome. It's amazing looking. And sounding. And sound, yeah. Cinematographer deserved to win for that. Yeah, absolutely, yeah.

35:25Yeah. Okay, this is—I'm afraid to even say this one. At least it's not racist, like, you're number one, but— What was another black movie that I was going to do, and I was like, I can't have two black movies. Like, that would really be bad. Like, Do the Right Thing, Moonlight, and Sinners, yeah. I actually—you know what's—like, underrated movie is Moonlight. Like, even though people love it, and it's on the list, and it won Best Picture. I never saw it. I never watched it. It's awesome. Like, it's amazing. Okay, so this last one, I need to preface by saying Howard Hawks is one of my favorite directors, you know, from the 30s, 40s, 50s.

36:03Absolutely just banger after banger. And in our Noir Summers series that we did on Patreon, where we did all these old noirs, we talked about Billy Wilder and how he works in so many genres. Like, I think that's even more true of Howard Hawks. Like, he did, like, classics and screwball comedy and noir and westerns, war movies, like Red River, The Big Sleep, Only Angel Has to Have Wings, Rio Bravo, like, His Girl Friday. I love all of those movies. His Girl Friday, I think, is probably my favorite screwball comedy of all time.

36:38But when you look at, like, top 100 lists of, like, the 20th century, and you look for Howard Hawks films, the most likely one you'll find— Really, the only one of them that's reliably on all of those lists is Bringing Up Baby. And I will say that I don't think Bringing Up Baby is very good. I don't think it's very funny. I think it's kind of annoying. And the fact that people like it more or even put it in the same category as, like, His Girl Friday, even though they both have Cary Grant, you know, Bringing Up Baby as Katherine Hepburn, like, it's mystifying to me.

37:18I've never liked this movie. I've never gotten it. You know, I watch it every 15 years thinking I must be crazy, given how much everyone else loves it. I just don't like it very much. I wish I could defend it. I've never seen it. I wish I could say something. I wish I could argue with you. I mean, you would like it because there's almost no black people in it.

37:38But was it produced by Jews? I'm sure. But, yeah, no, the big thing is there's a tiger in it, and she has a tiger. That she calls Baby. Like, the whole joke of the movie is basically that. It's like Alf. You know, like, what if an alien was on the thing? What if a, like, Depression-era socialite had a tiger? And Cary Grant plays this, like, nebbishy dinosaur fossil, like, archaeologist or whatever. Yeah, it's not good. It's not romantic.

38:10Like, and I love those two. And the Philadelphia story, one of my favorite movies. Like, give me Katharine Hepburn and Cary Grant, but not in Bringing Up Baby. And I've said it. Somehow, I can't explain why, Tamler. It is extra hipster of you to shit on a movie from 1937 or whatever and be worried that people are going to revoke your cinephile card. This is, like, when audio was just introduced into film. No, actually. Like, you don't have to be, like, a huge cinephile to think Bringing Up Baby is one of, like,

38:44the best, like, comedies of, you know, of that era, the golden era, the early golden era of film. I don't think I've ever seen this on a list, but I believe you. I'm not saying, like, that's, I mean, I think we're just looking at different lists. My list is half Forrest Gump. You need to upgrade your lists, I think. My top movies of whatever just doesn't go back to 1930s. Like, ah, there's King Kong! There's, like, bringing up baby!

39:15I thought you were going to say Big Sleep, even though you mentioned it. I was going to, that's what I would have been upset about, Big Sleep. Yeah, no. Yeah. It was really, really good. It's probably not my favorite noir, but it's really, really good. Oh, you know what I just saw? Out of the Past. Oh, yeah. That's good. It's good. Yeah. I liked it. I liked it, too. The fucking actresses. Like, I loved her. Jane Greer, I guess. I don't think I've seen her in anything else. Dude, I know. She has these, like, smoky good looks. I don't know how to describe it. Like, when she's in that, like, bar in Acapulco and, like, oh, man.

39:48I could see throwing it all away. I feel bad nutting to, like, 30s, 40s movie stars. Well, because she's, like, she stayed a working actress and was, like, in Murder, She Wrote's in the 80s, you know, like. Yeah, but she was sexy. All right. Has your card been revoked properly? Yes. And yours, too. I do admire. I totally reject the Sinner's pick, although it clearly fits. But the Parasite pick, I think there's a chance you will be a little bit vindicated about it.

40:20I know. I want to plot some of these things over time to see, like, whatever, Metacritics by year. And for the record, you have some impressive, like, notches in your belt with The Bear. What's another one recently? Well, Hamilton. You like that I predicted Hamilton was going to be corny. Yeah, Hamilton. There was a time where that was. I know. You didn't really see it. No, I heard it. You heard it. I heard some of the songs. Yeah, yeah. Or I would see, like, clips of, like, oh, wow, so clever.

40:53It's like rapping, but it's about history. Yeah. You were, as you like to say, pejoratively, you were on the nose.

41:03I was early to the scene of the crime. All right. We'll be right back to talk about the Krita.

41:19We'll be right back.

Break and Patreon Announcement

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45:35All right, thank you so much for all your support. We really appreciate it. Let's get back to the episode and Plato's Crito.

Main Segment Introduction

45:44All right, let's get to our main segment. We're going to be talking about Plato's Dialogue, The Crito, part of our intermittent Back to Basics series. The last one, I think that we did, well, it might have been Freud. It might have been a psychology one or was it the Euthyphro? I think it was Euthyphro. Yeah. So, if so, that's fitting because these dialogues, the Euthyphro, the Apology, which is the Euthyphro takes place a couple days before the trial.

46:15The Apology is the account of the trial. Crito is an account of him talking to one of his friends while in prison. And then the fourth in this quadrilogy, what do you call that? Quadrilogy? Sounds right to me. Is the Phaedo, a fascinating dialogue that we should do at some point, the depiction of Socrates' death. But this is a short little dialogue that is, I would say, somewhat straightforward for a Plato dialogue.

46:46You know, it's very clear what it's about. It reaches a definite conclusion. I don't know if there's a ton of different, like, interpretive possibilities compared to a lot of his dialogues. It is the story of Socrates being offered by one of his friends, Crito, the opportunity to escape and him turning that opportunity down. I thought I would just give a little background for some listeners who may not know about Socrates' trial and how it was that he got here.

47:19So Socrates, when he was 70 years old, was brought to trial by a private Athenian citizen. That's how it worked then. It would just be private citizens prosecuting other private citizens, and they would bring a charge themselves. And then a large jury, they had like 500-person juries, would vote. And it was just whatever the majority would say would determine guilt. And then after that, they would determine sentence.

47:51The sentencing phase is kind of interesting the way they do it. So the accuser, or at least one of the accusers, the one that we see in Plato's dialogue, the Apology, Miletus, he brings the charge of blasphemy against the gods or not believing in the old gods, introducing new gods. So that was the first accusation, and the second was corrupting the youth. And so in the trial, Socrates, you know, is able to cross-examine Miletus.

48:23Miletus is able to cross-examine Socrates, and all of this is done in front of this massive jury. And then at the end of that process, which is, you know, one version of it is recorded in the Apology. There's also a Xenophon account of Socrates' trial. We know that this really happened. And we don't know exactly, like, what was said in these cases, but this is a real event. And in real life, as well as in the Apology, Socrates is found guilty. He's found guilty of the charges.

48:55So then in the sentencing phase, the way that works is the prosecutor offers one sentence, and then the defendant offers another sentence. And then the jury will vote again. They have to choose one of those two sentences. So Miletus chooses death by Hemlock. And then Socrates now, and if you are the defendant, like, if you're thinking about this in terms of game theory, right, you want to pick the lowest sentence that will still get them to vote for you, right?

49:28But Socrates says, look, I think that I am guilty of only one thing, which is trying to bring out the best in my fellow Athenians and thinking about ethics in the best possible way, because at least I admit that I know nothing where they believe they know things. And so I think my punishment should be that I dine with all the Olympians, who are also magnificent athletes. But here I am, like an athlete of the mind, an athlete of the soul.

50:01And so I should get to dine with them. And so that was his offer. And the jury was so offended by that, by the kind of arrogance of that. I don't think I knew that. Like, I think I'm learning that for the first time. That's hilarious and obviously like a fuck you to them. It was a total fuck you. And the irony is that, so then they meet and vote again, and a larger majority of the jury voted for death over Socrates' sentence,

50:32then voted that he was guilty in the first place. So even like a big segment, like 50 people who voted him innocent still voted for him to get the death penalty because they were offended by his arrogance. Now, there's a lot in real life of doubt about why these charges came up. Some people think it's because he was in the bag of the Spartans in the Peloponnesian War. Some people think, you know. But by all accounts, something along these lines happen where he's in prison, waiting to be executed,

51:04and a friend comes and gives him this opportunity to escape. And one of the things that appears to be true is the Athenians were like sick of him and did think probably that he was a bad influence on the children. And but I don't think they wanted him to die. Socrates gave them no alternative with that alternative punishment. So I think it is true that it wouldn't have been that hard to convince the warden to look the other way with a little bribe.

51:36And then Socrates is exiled, which is honestly what people wanted in the first place. They just wanted him to fuck out of Athens, to leave them alone and leave their kids alone because their kids were all, you know, he was like a Jordan Peterson. And, you know, I was literally thinking, like, do you think they viewed him as a Jordan? Yeah. And can I just ask real quick, like, it seems to be clear from this or not clear, like implied that had he just offered a sentence of like expulsion from Athens, the jury probably would have gone for it.

52:09Yes. Like, I think that was clear from the get go. I think that was probably what the jury expected. And had he done it, certainly in the credo, the credo, the credo, I've heard it pronounced both ways. But for whatever reason, I'm calling it the credo. Credo is good because credo sounds too much like C-R-E-D-O. Yeah. So I approve. Anyway. Yeah. I think that would have been best case scenario for all involved, except maybe the homicidally crazed Miletus. So the point is, is that, like, nobody would have been that mad if that's what ended up happening.

52:43He had escaped. And this is the case Crito is trying to make to Socrates. And Socrates, you know, gives all these reasons why he shouldn't. And, yeah, before I get into my thoughts about the dialogue, I'm kind of curious what you thought fresh. And you said you had questions. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I don't think I'd ever read it before. Two things. One, Crito is not, he's like a placeholder. Like, it doesn't even. He's not the sharpest knife in the drawer. I know that he's there to break them out, but he's not, like, offering interesting counterarguments.

53:18Yeah. But, too, like, I guess, like, I was a little surprised at how pro-state he was. Yeah. Honestly, like, that was also my impression reading it this time. You know, I taught it in an intro, like, a long time ago. I don't do it anymore. But it has a bit of the consequentialist versus the deontologist element of it. Certainly the main argument Socrates gives is he was convicted via fair trial and he had a contract with the laws of Athens and he's obligated to follow it.

53:52That's the right thing. So it has that thread. But then there's also this, like, weirdly Freudian, like, the laws and the state are my father, my angry father, and I must obey my father. Like, which is weird because it's in such tension with his obvious disdain for the majority and majority opinion, which constitute the judgments of the state in this case. It's very weird. Yeah. Like, I couldn't help but read into it some, like, giving up at this point where he's just, like, just lost the sort of fight about this.

54:25What do you mean? Like, I found it hard to, that he, like, throughout the whole thing wouldn't have argued more strongly about the injustice of what's being done to him. And it felt like he was just sort of going to accept it because, like, why live in a place that thinks this about me anyway? Yeah, but then that doesn't square with, you know, some of the, and we'll get to some of those passages where it's, like, the laws are supreme and we must obey them.

54:56Otherwise we're, like, slaves running away. Yeah, the whole, like, I'm like a slave unless, like, Athena is, like, my master. Like, Athena, Athens is my master. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's funny that you say Freud because he multiple times refers to arguments to the contrary as childish. Yeah, right. Yeah, and multiple times refers to the laws as, like, parents and especially a father. And, you know, of course, in the Republic, depending on how you interpret that, that is very open to, like, radically opposed interpretations. But, you know, there is an authoritarian regime that seems to be the one that Socrates is saying is the only city that could be just.

55:36You know, that's not how I read the Republic, but it's an obvious surface reading of it. And, you know, like, if you want to give evidence for that interpretation, I think the Crito could maybe do that, except that Socrates clearly has respect for the laws of a democracy in this case. I mean, this was about as democratic as you can get, taking 500 citizens or whatever and having them vote on the fate of it. But, yes, of course, he doesn't like their verdict and it was probably an unjust – but even what you mean by unjust is strange because the justice is the way they see it, the process here.

56:16And the process was followed. If anything, like, one of the most compelling arguments that Socrates makes is for that the process was fair, you know. Trust the process. Yeah, trust the process. And I would think you would love that because you love, like, you know, process-oriented justice. I mean, it just never seemed to me that he was defending himself in the best way. And so the verdict being unjust, like, it's not hard to see, like, the tyranny of the majority at work.

56:48And that, like, he doesn't talk about the tyranny of the majority when, as you say, he's talking about how the majority is, like, so wrong. Like, it seems exactly odd. Yeah, I guess I'm not sure I agree that this is a tyranny of the majority. You know, that's what you get in a democracy. If you are respecting the laws of the democracy, like, by definition, you are going to go with the will of the majority. And it might be that in the republic – well, I think certainly Plato had mixed feelings at best about a democracy, whether he actually endorsed the totalitarian regime of the republic as a separate matter.

57:27But I don't know. Like, that's what – the laws are intertwined with the sort of majority gets to decide in cases like this. And that's what constitutes justice. It just made me think of Anton Chigurh saying, if your rules got you here, like, of what use are your rules, you know? Yeah, and, you know, one of the things that's funny, you know, because he does do a bit of social contract thing. Like, you make a deal with the state. The state carries out its bargain. You may not have, like, loved every decision they make. But they held their side of the bargain if they followed the laws or the process.

58:02You could have left if you didn't like the laws, but you didn't. And so – No, like, I was just, like, with the information that I guess I didn't know that his counteroffer was, like, let me have dinner with the athletes. Like, it just – to me, it's just suicidal. But I guess, like, the fair reading is that I think maybe he saw himself as so pulled by the belief that his actions and words were true that he couldn't, in good conscience, give himself a sentence that was a punishment because it would be akin to agreeing.

58:37And he can't – he has to register that he doesn't agree. And, you know, it made me think about, like, our legal system and how your hand is forced to admit to some crime even if you don't think that you're guilty because of the chance that you're going to get, like, a far greater crime. Like, I've been listening to podcast episodes with this guy, Greek-American guy whose name I'm blanking on, but who was the whistleblower for the torture – the CIA torture program.

59:07He was, like, a CIA operative. And he served time for it. And he was, like, insistent that he did nothing wrong, like, that the torture program was illegal and there was nothing wrong in him saying it. But he ended up doing, like, whatever, like, three years or, you know, some stupid shit. He agreed to a plea. He agreed to the plea. And, like, the way that he describes it is, like, it's going against every fiber of his being to agree to it. But his lawyers are like, do you really – do you want to be in prison for 20 years?