Episode 328: Weapons Free

Introduction

0:00Very Bad Wizards is a podcast with a philosopher, my dad, and psychologist Dave Pizarro, having an informal discussion about issues in science and ethics. Please note that the discussion contains bad words that I'm not allowed to say, and knowing my dad, some very inappropriate jokes. What's our objective?

0:23To dramatically overreact.

0:30Leighton Haas has spoken.

0:34Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

0:42Who are you? Who are you? I'm a very bad man. I'm a very good man. Good man.

0:53They think deep thoughts, and with no more brains than you have. Pay no attention to that man.

1:03Anybody can have a brain.

1:07You're a very bad man. I'm a very good man. Just a very bad wizard. Welcome to Very Bad Wizards.

Sicario Discussion

1:16I'm Tamler Summers. Dave, today we're talking about Denis Villeneuve's Sicario in the main segment. You're Latin American. Do you belong to any of the major cartels? Only a minor one. We're not, you know, my family wasn't important enough. We only move like a few kilos per month. Have you just been assigned to kind of monitor me and just make sure, like, I don't harm the family's interests? I've had some people tell me when I wear a suit and sunglasses that I look like I'm in the cartel,

1:47which I just take to be racist, like the way you're implying now. It'd be funny if, like, this whole time, like, 13 years, 327 episodes, all the bonus episodes, it's all just you're on some covert mission because they're concerned about, like... Your gummy abuse. I'm not sure what they think I can do to them, but you've done a good job. I'm just in too deep right now. I'm, like, deep cover. Like, they've been trying to pull me out. You're like Donnie Brasco. But, yeah, dude, I have such a movie boner for Sicario.

2:19Like, I can't wait to talk about it. It's like heroin to me. But first, we are doing our biannual, semi-annual, what's twice a year? Is there any way of knowing that? I think biannual is twice a year, but...

Biannual Listener Episode

2:32Okay. Our biannual listener-selected episode where our Patreon supporters suggest topics, and then we narrow them down and have a little VBW madness. A 16-team bracket tournament where our supporters will then vote on each round and select a winner. Last time we did this, it was the first VBW madness, and Schopenhauer came out of that. Just kind of kicked ass, like, went through the bracket, like, with no problem, no threat at all.

3:06Yeah. That was like a sleeper for me. So, I'm hoping something unexpected comes through this year. And let me correct myself. Semi-annual is... You're right. It's semi-annual. Well, I didn't really... I can't... Yeah, yeah. I just can't stand the thought of somebody emailing us, telling us that... Actually! So, all right.

Topic Suggestions

3:25So, we each brought our lists. Yeah. This comes from 155 suggestions. Is that right? Yeah. Or at least comments. Like, there were some replies, but mostly. Yeah. Actually, more, because lots of people put, like... Multiple. Abuse the system, you know. I don't think that's an abuse of the system. Yeah. You know, I like calling it that. But the only kind of rule we have is, like, try not to suggest long books. And then everybody just does that. Yeah. So, it's like... Yeah. Yeah. If we're going to give them shit for anything, that's the one.

3:56Although, you know, like, sometimes we do books. Like, Blood Meridian won one of these way back in the day. So, you know. And I have a few on my list. So, we got to narrow it down to 16 for the tournament. So, you want to start? Yeah, sure. And these are in no order for me. Um, Hayden Johnson said, Tree of Life. Something I've been wanting to do. Really? Um, yeah. That's so interesting. Yeah. Um, I have the Blu-ray. It's, like, still in its wrapper. Really? I got, like, the Criterion Blu-ray.

4:28I have not watched it. So, like, you know, it might be a terrible suggestion. Because, like, I could see myself not liking it. But I could also see myself loving it. So, I kind of don't know. Yeah. I mean, like, I haven't seen it since it first came out. I remember really liking it. Thinking it was really cool. But then also thinking it would be a bit of a chore to re-watch. And then finally, the Criterion thing came out. And I bought it. And still haven't watched it. So, this would be great. I would put this on. Okay. Cool. All right. I'll stick with film and do Apocalypse Now.

5:01I think Apocalypse Now would kick ass. I mean, it's weird that we haven't done it. It's a big thing to take on. Yeah. But it's so, yeah. I mean, I would also do Hearts of Darkness. Yeah. We could do them both together. That would be a project, probably. Yeah, that would be a summer. But just even the movie, it's a big thing to... You know, there was an article when Sicario came out saying that Sicario is our generation's Apocalypse Now. I think that's kind of an interesting idea. Yeah, I saw somebody say that to you.

5:31That was suggested by Tate Paffil, since I keep track of our patrons. Oh, yeah. Who suggested it. All right. So, we got two that we seem pretty good on. What's your next one?

Literature Suggestions

5:42Okay.

Literature Suggestions

5:42I'll step away from film for a second and do The Overcoat by Gogol. I had that, too. Niels Landro suggested that. I have not read it. I don't really know what it's about. But we both were just saying on our AUA that we would do another Gogol. Totally. Sticking with literature in another language. And I would love for this to end. Invisible Cities by Attilo Calvino. Yeah, I have that, too. I suspected we'd have a lot of overlap this time. I didn't know, actually, because there's so many.

6:14There's so many. Has that been on our bracket? I don't know if it was last time. I feel like it's been... It always does well, though. You know, it could be just the listeners needed to go a couple rounds before... Yeah, that's right. ...before finally winning. You know, like Timothee Chalamet. He can't, like, win an Oscar yet until he's paid his dues. So hopefully that's what Invisible Cities is doing. So I had placebo effects. Mark, I think, is the very last one. But it's something I've been wanting to look into.

6:44So, like, just as my own motivation. So we had this on the bracket last time. And I thought it was going to win. And instead, it got crushed in the first round. It got crushed? Yeah. Oh, yeah. So maybe not put it. That's right. I forgot that we had it. Yeah. So I didn't have that. All right. Let's not... We'll keep it in if we need it. Yeah. All right. Jeffrey Watermill, The Tempest. I got it. Jeffrey's on mine, too. All right. Good. So we're... Shakespeare. You know, if Jeffrey liked our Shakespeare, then we did something right, if he liked our

7:16Shakespeare episode. So, you know, this just has to go on. Fareed, The Passenger, and Stella Maris. Like, I almost didn't put it on because, like, we're going to do it. But what do you think? Yeah. I mean, like, I think it would be great. I read them already. But I'd be happy to reread them. Yeah. Yeah. Last I talked to you, you had read one of them. Yeah. I talked about it, I think, in an AUA, how I liked the first one more than Stella Maris. Fareed loves Stella Maris. They're both great. But, yeah.

7:46It's been on there last time. I think it did okay. So I would put it on.

More Suggestions

7:51And I think we should do it regardless, like you say, at some point. Here's one that I think would be nice to do, like, beginning of summer, you know, by the time this all wraps up, it'll be close to May. The Remains of the Day by Kazuo Ishiguro. Like, I mean, I've read that book now a couple times. I love it. Like, I think it's the top five book of the last century. I know nothing about it. Really? Oh, God. Yeah. Yeah, you'd be in for a treat if you're reading this for the first time. Was the movie any good? That's how I know it. It's pretty good.

8:22Like, wasn't it one of those Oscar winners? It was, yeah. Anthony Hopkins, Emma Thompson. You know, like, the book is so good and it just, you can't be that good as a movie. It's very faithful. And both actors are very good. Oh, yeah. It's one of those Merchant Ivory ones. Maybe, yeah. Yeah. Okay. I'm down.

8:40Joe Burns, The Violent Bared Away by Flannery O'Connor. Just because I was looking for a good suggestion for Flannery O'Connor. Yeah. I had that, but then as I was, I had to narrow it down a little further. I took it off, but I would do it. Yeah. I didn't look how long it is, which is probably a good idea. I think it's a short novel, but yeah. Okay. Like, I think that should be close to getting in, if not in. Okay. I'll annotate it properly. All right. Here's one I got a boner for when I read it and I looked into it a little bit.

9:12Against the Machine by Paul Kingsnoreth. Who suggested it? Joe Pajkutch. Joe Pajkutch.

9:21I don't know anything about it. What is it? So here's the Amazon description. How a force that's hard to name, but which we all feel is reshaping what it means to be human. In Against the Machine, furiously gifted novelist, poet, and essayist Paul Kingsnoreth presents a wholly original and terrifying account of the technological cultural matrix inventing all of us. With masterful insight into the spiritual and economic roots of techno capitalism, Kingsnoreth reveals how the machine, in the name of progress, has choked Western civilization, is destroying Earth itself and reshaping us in its image.

9:59From the first industrial revolution to the rise of artificial intelligence, he shows how the hollowing out of humanity, hell yes, has been a long game, and how your very soul is at stake. It's prophetic, poetic, and erudite. So, yeah. How long is it, though? 368 pages. 368 pages. Yeah, you know, let's see. Let's keep it in mind.

10:25I had a feeling, as I was reading that, I had a feeling you weren't going to... It's a great U-book. It's a great... 4.5 average stars on Amazon. Yeah, you know, back burner. Back burner. All right, fair enough.

Finalizing Topics

10:41You're up. All right. Saris, Kiki's Delivery Service. That's just another excuse to put a Miyazaki on. Yeah, I just don't know if I would want it to be that one, if we're going to do another Miyazaki. I remember not loving that. I only saw it once. Eliza wasn't really into it, so we just never put it on again. But I remember thinking, because we were just watching them, like, constantly at that time, that that wasn't my favorite. Like, I would want to do Howl before that. Howl's Moving Castle or Castle in the Sky.

11:14And I feel like we're constrained by what people actually wrote, so, like, I was looking for a Miyazaki excuse, but, like, I think that's the only Miyazaki that was on. Yeah, and it was actually recommended by another person, too. So, back burner. But I think it would be fun to do another Miyazaki soon. Yeah. All right, you're up. Well, so Farid suggested The Age of Anxiety by Alan Watts, essay in The Wisdom of Insecurity, his book. And then he also suggested Concerning Feschner, the William James lecture in the pluralistic universe.

11:48And we've done a couple of those before from that collection, also thanks to Farid. So, I think both of those would be great. I don't see necessarily Concerning Feschner doing that well in the tournament. Why didn't he title it something better? Yeah, exactly.

12:06But, yeah, I thought I'd throw it in. I know, I would totally be up for the win. We should just do it, yeah. Yeah. It's not going to win, so let's. So, wait, we should do it as in we should put it on the list? No, I don't think so. In the bracket. I think we should just do it, like, at some point. Yeah, I'd be down. I mean, I think I'm going to get dragged into Alan Watts eventually. If you want to put Alan Watts on the bracket, I'm okay with that. Yeah, okay. I mean, I'm not familiar with that essay, but I trust Farid. We could say this or some Alan Watts. He's fun to read. I've read some of him.

12:37Well, like, if we're sticking to our own rules, we got to put. All right. So, let's just put it on the margins and we can either do it or not. Okay. There's some things I'm willing to let my art audience drag me into. Yeah. You know? Yeah. I think, like, you would have nothing against Alan Watts. No, no, I do have something against Alan Watts. I've listened to his lectures and I think they're, like, not good. But, like I said, I'm open-minded. This is epistemic humility right here in action. I'm willing to. We've had this discussion. Remember Alan Watts was on? Yeah. But I think you just listened to one lecture.

13:08Yeah. Okay. Mine, Drew Fisher suggested Brazil. I think Brazil would be fun. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. I have been increasingly frustrated by modern bureaucracy and I think it would be cathartic. Yeah. It is, like, a great early version of that kind of bureaucratic dystopia that, like, a lot of, like, black mirrors or something, you know, kind of updated. And it's funny. And Gilliam is, like, a good visual. Just, like, it's good visuals. Yeah. Like, really, really creative.

13:39Yeah. I would put that on. I'll do another movie then. There's actually a few good ones. But The Conversation. Oh, yeah. I think it would be pretty awesome. And then let me just throw another one because maybe we have to decide we can't do all of these. But Solaris, the novel film. You know, that's been in these final lists a lot. And it always does okay. But, you know, I think those three movies I thought would be cool. Yeah. So The Conversation, Solaris, and what was yours?

14:11Oh, Brazil. Brazil. Yeah. I mean, should we just do two of those? Yeah, I think that's right. We could do Solaris, the book. I mean, it is really interesting to compare, like, Solaris, the book, and Solaris, the movie. Yeah. Yeah, let's do that one then. Okay. So Brazil and Solaris or Conversation and Solaris? Which do you want between Brazil and The Conversation? I don't know. You know, I love The Conversation. I'm just trying to think, like, what would make for a more interesting conversation for us. Maybe Conversation would because, you know, surveillance. Surveillance. Yeah, they're both. Yeah. They both hit on something.

14:42They're both, right. They are, yeah, yeah. Okay. Right now, I'm going to put Brazil and The Conversation in one little category on my list. And then let's come back to it at the end of the list to see if, like, what we think. Okay. My turn? Yeah. The Dead by James Joyce? Oh, I didn't even see that. I've not read any of this. Yeah, no, I've read The Dead. It's great. I mean, a long time ago. So it's Alita Karamova, and she said, consider one of the greatest short stories written in English. If you've read it, then you can maybe do it. But a long time ago. I remember thinking, it's great, but I don't really remember it.

15:15I was, like, in my 20s. That's like a different person. Yeah. But, yeah, I would do it. Okay. All right. Go for it. Okay. A couple people, including Cucumber McPickle, suggested this Brazilian novel, The Posthumous Memoirs of Bra Cubas by Machado de Assis. I know I'm probably saying all of that wrong. But I looked it up, and it seemed pretty cool. I didn't look it up, but Cucumber did describe it as, like, good in a way that sounded like

15:48I would like it. Yeah. Is it long? It is. 368 pages. So, kind of. Yeah. Yeah. Mateus Leopoldino says, it's the greatest masterpiece in Brazilian literature. It's a book, but it is short. The chapters are pretty short, too. If it matters at all, Susan Sontag described Machado as being the greatest writer ever produced in Latin America, even surpassing Borges. Oof. That's sad. Bold words. Yeah. It's a bold claim, Susan. Yeah. Like, I'd put it up.

16:19Yeah. Give it a chance. Give it a shot. It might not. You know, it would be a low seed, I think. Yeah. But, okay, cool.

16:27Steven Rao, Steven likes it, Rao, suggested just this topic of twin studies. Yeah. And he had a suggestion. But, like, I would love to deep dive, because somebody said it on the Patreon, that, like, there was recently an economist who posted, like, what he considered, like, a big debunking of these studies. Yeah, that there's, like, none of them are real. Yeah. Or that's what he says. Yeah. I haven't read it, actually. I looked at it, but I didn't get into the details. I don't think it would take more research to kind of figure out to what extent he's onto something. Yeah. Yeah.

16:57It's definitely one, like, it would be, like, intelligence for me. Like, it'd be work to, like, do a deep dive, but I'd be up for it. Yeah. I had that, too. So, I think that should go on. Noah Silbert suggested Inventing Temperature by Ha Sok Chang. And he said it's easy to do chapters, so you could do chapter one, chapter two. There's kind of self-contained. Oh, dude, I've heard of this. Yeah. And I would love to read that. Yeah. So, like, it's about how temperature, like, you know, originally there was no way to, like,

17:31measure temperature. And you had to kind of figure out what that even meant to, like, measure temperature. So, it sounds fascinating, kind of very up my alley about measurement. Oh, I would totally. And, like, it seems pretty cool. And just, like, that history of science, like, how people, like, try to solve these problems. Yeah. It's, like, one of these things that you just don't think about. Like, yeah. Like, what is the standard by which we even determine what the temperature, like, it's crazy. Yeah. Like, I'd be, like, I, yeah, I don't even know the answer to that, like. No, yeah. So. Takes a book to explain it to me.

18:01Yeah, yeah, yeah. That would be good. Yeah. All right, cool. How many does that make us? 15. And this is, the ones on the margin aren't included in that? Oh, yeah, there is one on the margin. Yeah, The Violent Buried Away is on the margin. So, 14 and a half. Okay.

18:17Okay. I have Hans Verst suggested, I think it's a short story that I hadn't heard of, ETA Hoffman's The Sandman. Oh, yeah. A 19th century horror tale about madness and sex robots. That description was enough to, like, capture me. I think that, you know, that would be, like, a weird studies choice. I think it's, like, classic, classic weird fiction and, you know, like, Poe and Lovecraft, you know. Yeah, a gothic horror short story from 1816 about a student whose childhood trauma involving

18:50the mythical Sandman. Yeah. Hey, you know, we can invite weird studies guys on for. Oh, yeah. I can't imagine they haven't done that. But you never know. Right. Yeah. But let's hear yours before I put it on the list. Well, I actually don't know. What do you think? I mean, that was on mine, too. It was golded for me. Okay. So, I would definitely put that on there. Oh, well, we talked about, do we do Bartleby? Yeah, right. So, what's funny is, like, when I saw that suggestion, I was like, wait, didn't we fucking do Bartleby? And so, I had to Google our own podcast.

19:22And no, I had a false memory, but we were about to. And in my memory, Tambler came up with, like, some idea that was just, like, we had to do it in that, in, like, so we kind of abandoned it. Or maybe we weren't that excited about it when we read it. Yeah, that's my only worry is I kind of have a memory of that. But, like, I've read it, like, before. I thought it was very cool. But I think, like, yeah, the only reason not to do it is we made a, I feel like we made a decision that we didn't want to do it. Let's go back to it. Maybe not put it on the list, but go back to it and give it another chance.

19:52Because I would love to do some Melville. If not that, Billy Budd or The Confidence Man. I think The Confidence Man would be very cool. So, yeah, Melville is on our minds right now. Okay, cool. That would be 16 if we put that in. No, that's 15 unless we put The Violet and Baird away. Either, like, The Burnout Society and the Neil Postman amusing ourselves to death. Like, I think that would be pretty fun. Yeah. Yeah, I'd like that.

20:23The only other one I had was Purity and Danger by Mary Douglas. Oh, yeah, what's that? So, it's an anthropologist who, this is a book from the 60s, it's sort of, like, very seminal in, like, the purity stuff. Like, I assigned the first two chapters for my purity seminar that I'm teaching. The first chapter is, like, bad because she just, like, covers, she's just talking about what other people have said. But then the rest gets good. So, like, I have mixed feelings about it. I would probably want to skip the first chapter. But it is, you know, very much like Mercier-Eliad, Mercier-Eliad tradition.

20:57I've already forgotten how to say it. That kind of stuff. But I think amusing ourselves to death would be better. Yeah, and it might do better in the tournament. So, let's just, you know, you're doing this already. As you're teaching it, you can kind of figure out, like, what would be the best way for us to do it. Yeah, there might be a chapter in there. Yeah, so we could always do that. It sounds like something I would love. Yeah, I think you would like it. Um, amusing ourselves to death. That makes 16. And then we just have to decide between Brazil and the conversation.

Sicario Analysis

21:27So, read them out. Tree of Life. Apocalypse Now. The Overcoat. Invisible Cities. The Tempest. Passenger Stellamaris. Age of Anxiety. Solaris. The Dead by James Joyce. The posthumous Memoirs of Barakoba. Twin Studies. Inventing Temperature. The Sandman. And then we had the Maybe is the Violent Baird Away. And we had Brazil or The Conversation. Actually, that's without The Violent Baird Away, we're at 15.

21:59Let's do The Conversation, is my instinct, between that and Brazil. All right. So, like, I could flip a coin on those. Okay. And then, yeah, that actually puts us at 15, unless we include The Violent Baird Away, which I'm not sure. Yeah, I feel like we could still go to more of the short story, well, first. And then do the novel, maybe, after. Yeah. So, we just need one more, then. You know, like, he said, James Magee said, the psychology of aging and treatment of elders

22:29as a, like, just a theme. Yeah. Psychology of aging might be fun. Yeah. If deeply depressing. Yeah. Like, there's so much in that literature, though. Like, I feel like we need a thing. Yeah. What about you? Do you have any others? Yeah. The one I had was Legs Got Numb Because I Pooped Too Long, which is actually his name.

22:53Suggested a couple of short stories by Khalil Gibran. Gibran, I don't know how to say it. Or Khalil. Satan and the Tempest. Yeah. I don't know if they're any good. Yeah. I don't know anything about that. But, I mean, that should be one we look into. This is so great, this thing, because now we have all these topics. I know. It's like a whole new slack. Exactly.

23:14You know, I'll just mention this one that is great, which is a couple of TV animated series that I don't think we should do, but I'll just say them just in case. Common Side Effects, which is this animated series about a guy who discovers a mushroom that makes you immortal. It's really good. Okay. It is really good. And Scavenger's Rain, which is like this surreal animated series. I mean, I'll take an edible and watch those. You, oh, that Scavenger's Rain on edibles would be crazy.

23:45Oh, wait. Actually, we just got a late comment. Celtics Fan 101 suggests, Dave rewatches Straw Dogs. Yes. That could be a good one. Thanks, Celtics Fan 101.

24:04Is Celtics Fan 101 a middle-aged Jew from Houston? I don't know. I didn't say.

24:10No, I do think Hermann Hesse's Siddhartha could go on there, though. Or Steppenwolf. Both have been suggested. What is Steppenwolf about? Steppenwolf is a kind of, like, I have read it a long time ago, like 30 years ago, but I remember it being kind of a fucked up, very cool story about, like, you know, a modern story about a guy in Germany, I think. Yeah. It's a little surreal. Like, it's a spiritual quest, but it's also very dark.

24:42But again, I just have those impressions from it. But I remember really liking it. Like, and Siddhartha is like the story of the Buddha. Somebody, so Tobias is one of the people who suggested Siddhartha and Steppenwolf, and then somebody also said The Glass Bead Game by Hess. Which, that fucking rules The Glass Bead Game, but it's like it's a real project. But yeah, The Glass Bead Game is great. All right, let's put Siddhartha on. Okay. So, you want me to read the list?

25:12Yep. This is good, I think. Yeah. Tree of Life, Apocalypse Now, The Overcoat, Invisible Cities, The Tempest, The Passenger, Stellamaris, Amusing Ourselves to Death, Age of Anxiety, The Conversation, Solaris, The Dead, The Posthumous Memoirs of Brakuba, Twin Studies, Inventing Temperature, The Sandman, and Siddhartha. You know what I just realized? No philosophy. And like, well, one, like one psychology? Yeah, the Twin Studies one, right?

25:43I mean, the temperature one is kind of philosophy of science, I think. Yeah, that's true. That's true. Yeah. I mean, everything. Oh, Siddhartha is kind of philosophy. There's a lot of philosophy, so. And Tree of Life is philosophical.

25:59I know he points the camera up a lot. It seems to me in something deep. But, you know, we just have to admit what we are now. All right. So, thanks, everybody. And there's a lot of other good ones that we'll do, like Scavenger's Reign. Oh, my God. You should watch one episode of Scavenger's Reign after an edible and just tell me what you think. But, yeah. Thank you, everybody, for taking the time to, like, you know, obviously we can't name everybody's suggestion. But, like, this is definitely going into our bank of ideas. It's going into our spank bank for topics. Mine's getting kind of dry.

26:33It's like our slap. It got lazy. Sort of like nothing's happening in there. My memory is fading.

26:42I know. I'm, like, down to, like, the emergency reserves, you know. I know. It's like when you can only vividly remember shit from two years ago. Like, it stops. I blew through the endowment. And now.

27:01All right.

Supporting the Podcast

27:02We'll be right back to talk about Sicario. Sicario. Sicario. Sicario. Sicario. Sicario. Sicario. Sicario. Sicario. Sicario. Sicario.

27:16Sicario. Sicario. Sicario. Sicario. Sicario. Sicario. Sicario. Sicario. Sicario. Sicario. Sicario. Sicario. Sicario. Sicario. Sicario. Sicario. Sicario. Sicario. Sicario. Sicario. Sicario. Sicario. Sicario. Sicario. Sicario. Sicario. Sicario. Sicario. Sicario. Sicario.

27:46I like him when I catch him on the time

27:54When I tickle on the time

27:58I like him when I catch him on the time

28:08Baby Baby

28:19Baby Baby

28:26Baby Welcome back to Very Bad Wizards. This is the time of the episode where we like to take a moment and thank all the people who reach out to us, who email us, tweet at us, all the different ways you interact. If you would like to do that, you can email us, verybadwizards at gmail.com. We still read all of our emails. You can tweet at us. You can like us on Facebook. You can join the subreddit. You can like us on Instagram. You can even follow me on Letterboxd, just Tamler Summers, where I post little reviews of pretty much all the new movies that I see.

29:03And a really helpful way of supporting the podcast is to give us a five-star review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you kids are listening to podcasts these days, if kids do listen to podcasts. If you would like to support us in even more tangible ways, the main way to do that is to join our Patreon. And there are a bunch of different tiers. At just $2 a month, you get ad-free episodes all the way back, and you get nine volumes of Dave's Beats.

29:36$5 and up, that's the bonus episode tier, which unlocks so many bonus series, The Ambulators, The Reintegrators, and now The Lotus Eaters on two books at a time, 12-episode series on Homer's Odyssey. And we'll have another one of those coming next week. $10 and up? Well, if you're ever going to be a $10 and up listener, this is the right time to do that because you will be voting to determine a winner in our listener-selected episode, VBW Madness, a 16-topic tournament to determine what topic David and I will be covering.

30:15You also get our Brothers Karamazov series at that level. And finally, at $20 a month, you can ask us a question every month in our Ask Us Anything series, and we will answer it in a video for you and audio for all of our bonus tier listeners. Thank you so much. We're really so grateful for all your generous support, and I am personally really touched by the support people gave to my daughter Eliza in her film project, her thesis at the University of Texas, Austin, and she would like to say a word of thanks herself.

30:52Hi, everybody. This is Eliza. I just wanted to come on and say thanks so much to everyone who donated to my campaign. We shot the film last weekend, and it went great, and it absolutely would not have been possible without the help of all of you guys. Thank you so much, and I'm so grateful to be a part of this community.

Sicario Discussion Continues

31:07All right, let's get to our discussion of Sicario. All right, let's dive into our main topic for today, the movie Sicario from 2015. Sicario is a crime thriller written by Taylor Sheridan. It's the first of his kind of Western trilogy along with Hell or High Water and Wind River. Have you seen either of those? Nope. Hell or High Water? Well, actually, they're both excellent. They're not Sicario, but they're both excellent. We could do either of those.

31:39It's written by Taylor Sheridan, directed by Denis Villeneuve, shot by the cinematographer god Roger Deakins. Oh, man, did he bring it for this. Bless his name. Yeah. Stars Emily Blunt, Josh Brolin, and Benicio Del Toro, who are all just absolutely, they're all outstanding performances. Everyone's just at the top of their game in this movie. It's the story of an FBI agent, played by Emily Blunt, who gets pulled into some kind of CIA, FBI special forces, all blended together in a task force unit that is assigned to infiltrate and take down a major Mexican cartel.

32:22Dave, what did you think of Sicario? What's your history with it? I didn't see it when it came out. I think the first time I saw it was just on a random whim a few years ago. I've since watched it, I think, four times. I don't know if I've seen it four or five times. And it is like every time I watch it, it climbs up my ranking of like favorite movies. You know, I want to say top five, but I always, you know, you can't say top five until you name out your top five and you realize. But it's just like close to perfect in my book. Like there's not a lot that I think you could do to make this a better movie. And I just say not, I won't say perfect, but I don't know what, I'm not smart enough to know what, what would like make it better.

33:04It's funny because I think I agree that this movie like kicks so much ass, like from the first second and you get that like heartbeat, like the score, the ba-boom, ba-boom into the raid, right? Like, and then it just never stops. So I love this movie too. I think it's a well-regarded movie, but I don't, I still think it's kind of underrated. Yeah. It's gotten like legs like in recent years. Yeah, for sure. It's definitely more than when it came out, but still, even with the love that it's gotten recently, I still think it's kind of underrated. Like I think it might be his best movie, you know, over Arrival.

33:40Yeah. It's either that or Blade Runner. For me, it's Blade Runner 2049. But I think this is, this has a better story. Like you, this has a, just a more compelling, like performances, I think. Performances, that's what I was going to say. Yeah. And it's just like, you know, like his, his sci-fi escapades are amazing. Like he's probably the best sci-fi director of his generation. But when he's like on a smaller budget and not relying a ton on special effects, like this just shows his art and Deakins' art better.

34:14Yeah. $30 million budget. That's nothing. It's, it's nuts given like, like how many, like, like it just blows your mind, like how great these scenes are. There's definitely some CG, but it's like on the margins. It's, uh, yeah. Practical effects. I don't know how they made this with that cast too, how they made it for $30 million. But I wouldn't say that it's flawless or perfect. Like, it's not, I have some things that I, yeah, but go ahead. Well, I would say if there's one major flaw for me, it's, there's a little stretch in the middle where, you know, after the unbelievable Juarez sequence, it gets a little kind of bogged down in some exposition, you know, before it just picks back up.

34:55And also Emily Blunt's character, I think has one or two too many times where she like, what's going on here? You know, like, and like, I, I'm not authorized, you know, I feel like she does that like maybe a, uh, one or two too many times in the movie and just her character in general. While I think she's great and it overall works, like there is something about how many times she keeps saying, I'm going to leave. I'm not going to, okay, no, I gotta go. I'll go. I gotta see what they're doing, where they're going. Like, you know, I don't know. Yeah. Like I could see why you'd say that. I think there's something like deep about her character that compels me that like, I'm trying to figure out every time I watch it. And there is something about her character that makes me just sort of try to figure out like, what's her backstory, you know? And her nerves seem shot.

35:42Yeah. And I think the first time I watched it, like her nerves being shot got on my nerves, but now I'm like, oh yeah, there's something really weird about what's going on with her. Yeah. I'll tell you what I thought was, was the weaker, uh, aspect in its story wise. Like the Reggie character, like I never quite understand what he's doing there. I love the actor. You know, he's great. Daniel Kaluuya. As rich as he is. But like, sometimes I was like, wait, so why do we need this guy? Yeah. He's always the one that's like trying to be protective of Emily Blunt, Kate. And, you know, like both of them, I think this actually works. They're always pushing back. You know, they're always trying to do some kind of small.

36:21Acts of resistance. And they're always just immediately dispatched, like in so many different ways. And then like the greatest example is in the last scene of the, or, you know, like towards the end of the movie where Reggie, the Reggie character gets mad and tries to fight them. And like one of the special forces guys just pins him down and says, just lay back, baby. Let it happen.

36:45Yeah. It's so fucked up. Yeah. Um, but for me, the highs of this movie, like the building of the tension, like the scenes, the pace of it, it's weird. It is a slow movie that moves quickly in my mind. Like, I don't know how to describe it because, you know, it's, it's hard to build tension. Well, and I think that this whole movie is one big sort of like exercise in building tension and minorly relieving it and building it back again. And, you know, the action is very short. Like it doesn't last very long, but it's intense.

37:18Yeah. And the violence is fucked up. Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't pull any punches. And yeah, there's just so many set pieces that like, I, I, I just like injected into my veins. Like, like it's just done so well. The score, the shots, the, um, yeah, like everything and just every little detail of the performances. It's just so masterfully done. And I really think like everyone is at the peak of their powers. It feels like, like Josh Brolin, I think is so phenomenally good. And he's like, I really like him and other stuff, like, especially Hail Caesar and No Country. But like, I feel like this is his best performance. And maybe that's true for Benicio too. Uh, it's certainly up there.

38:00Yeah. I think for Benicio for sure. Yeah. Maybe for Brolin too. But like, yeah, Benicio, I like, I kind of, like if I had to be gay, like, I think I might be gay for Benicio. You know what's funny though? Cause I listened to like every like team Deakins podcast that was, and there's a lot on Sicario. And one of them is Benicio Del Toro comes on and is interviewed by Roger Deakins. And Benicio Del Toro, I swear to God, go and listen to it. He sounds in the interview, like he's some, like, like 65 year old, like Jewish Borscht Belt comedian, you know, or Jerry Lewis or something like that.

38:42Like, it's the most like Jerry Lewis. It's the most bizarre thing. Like I was doing a dub. Wait, is this really him? It's a good interview, but you have to get past that. So maybe that would cure your gayness. I've been looking to cure my gayness. Yeah. Anyway, uh, one other thing I really like about it is I think it works well on the level of just telling a absolutely compelling story about something that's really happening.

Tension and Suspense

39:09But then I also think it works as a broader, like allegory for just the way us like imperialism works and the covert operations and how they turn people against each other and how that operates. So it's like a really good story about that story. But then also I think it has this kind of metaphorical resonance and, you know, it's the character of Kate, I think is an interesting to think like, what does she represent in that picture? And because on the one hand, she kind of represents us. Like it's definitely from her perspective, which is like, we know what she knows, which is often very little.

39:48Yeah. It makes the tension that much stronger that we're thrust into this without knowing anything. Like you said, we only know what she knows and that's not a lot. Yeah. Even visually, she's just confused. You get a lot of shots that are directly from her perspective and you feel the confusion. Yeah. You feel the confusion. But then also, like us, you're kind of drawn to the violence. You know, she's always, I mean, this is, I was complaining about this, but part of this is, it's like probably how it works is they get corrupted little by little until they're kind of eaten up and they're not useful anymore.

40:25But like she kept going back. You know, they make a real point of it. She had to volunteer to be on the task force. And every time they're like, do you want to just stay here? And she's like, no. You know, and she always goes. So I think that's also means something at a broader level, in addition to being like us too. Like, oh, I don't want to see this, but I also do want to see this. Right. You know, as you're talking, I'm just thinking about one of the things that I like about this movie is it manages to avoid some tropes. And one of the tropes that it avoids in my mind effectively is that the Kate character, Emily Blunt's character is not one of these like women who are really trying to make it in this world of violence and who are getting shit on by authority, like the other authorities, but who powers through.

41:10And in the end, like, you know, catches the villain, like, yeah, not the lambs. Right. Like she's kind of broken by the end. And you feel like she was just never cut out for it. No. You know? Yeah. And that's that same. I think for Reggie, they are completely out of their depth. Like these people are professionals. They've been doing it for a long time. Yeah. And they are the minorest hassle to have to deal with whatever they can put up. Every time they try to resist, sometimes physically, they just get immediately like tackled and brought down and choked and threatened and, you know.

41:46Yeah. And if there's anything to me that they represent, like what Kate's character represents, like I hadn't really thought about until you were talking about like who she might be representing. I feel like she represents this sort of naive view of what the U.S. does. Yeah. And like the sort of default view that you get if you're raised in the U.S. and like you watch the news about the war on drugs and like the bust or whatever. And she is taken into the actual world. Like I saw somebody say this is like a fucked up Wizard of Oz.

42:17Yeah. Like the way that the U.S. actually operates with like no compunction like in other countries. Yeah. Yeah. Kind of like the liberal view of she wants to do things the right way. But she also, you know, wants to actually stop these horrible things from happening like these guys having 35 dead corpses in their walls, you know. And so she she wants to get the dirty work done, but she doesn't want to actually do the dirty work.

42:48And like they're already past that. Whatever moral crises they might have had are long behind them. Like everything. Yeah. And then there's the Benicio character who's just this other mystery that seems like he's with them, but he's also very apart from them. And we find out why at the end. What do you think about spoilers? Like I was thinking that there's only one thing that I think is a spoiler in this movie. And that's what happens at the dinner scene. Besides that, like, I don't think like this is a spoilable movie.

43:23No. Yeah, I think you're right. Maybe that Benicio del Toro is actually Puerto Rican. He's actually a 72-year-old Jew who is in the, he has like a 28-year-long like gig in the Catskills.

43:41Yeah. Now that you compared him to Jerry Lewis, I think that cured me. He also has so many cool lines. Oh my God. I used one the other day, like the other, like a few episodes ago, I used one of them to open it. It was the one where he says, your American mind can't understand. Yeah. But like in the end you will. In the end you'll understand. Listen, nothing will make sense to your American ears.

44:06And you will doubt everything that we do.

44:10In the end, you will understand. My favorite part of the movie, and maybe my favorite, like 15 minutes in all of movies, like the border crossing into Juarez. And so much of that is shot, and so much of the movie is shot in the area of the country that I love the most. Like I love beyond all everything, like West Texas. And like I'm driving on that stretch of I-10 where you can turn to go into Juarez all the time. And I just love it there. I love the desert.

44:42Do you love the liminality of it? I love the wide open spaces. Like I love, you know, the scene at the end where they're going into the tunnel. Just the thunderstorms, like all the like five different thunderstorms that you can see all on the horizon. Because you can just see forever. Like I live for that shit. And then this movie captures that so well. Yeah. The geography features so prominently here. The whole notion of what a border is seems so strongly like a theme of this movie. You're just seeing divisions everywhere.

45:15And one of the things that I noticed visually is like, again, a visual trope that was avoided here. Because like when it was made, they could have easily fallen into this trap of coloring, like color grading Mexico differently than the U.S. Which was just something, you know, it's like a very Breaking Bad thing to do. It's like Mexico is like orangey here. And I'm kind of warmer and brighter. Yeah, yeah. I feel like they do that for the story of the kid and the crooked cop. Do they? I feel like they do a little. But I think that works. Because the other parts of Mexico don't have that.

45:48So I think it has a kind of warmth in those scenes. But that's just what I thought. I don't know. Like I didn't look that up. Yeah, here, like whether you're on like just on that side of the border or just on this side of the border, it doesn't really matter that much. Like it just shows that, you know, there's a very strong, like this is two sides of the same coin where the U.S. is more powerful, but it's just the same shit, you know. It's like levels of corruption. And at one point, Benicio del Toro is warning them when they're in Juarez about federales, don't trust the local, you know, you can't trust the police.

46:22Yeah. And then she just gets betrayed by like an American policeman. Yes, exactly. And it doesn't hit you over the head with it. Not at all. But it's just like, you know, it doesn't really matter which side you're on. Yeah. I would say if there's one point where it does hit you over the head with it a little bit is at the end where the crime boss says, do you think the people who sent you here are any different? Who do you think trained us? That's the light I hate the most in the whole, yeah. Yeah. But I think they just, it's just the culmination of something that has been within the movie the whole time.

Border Crossing Scene

46:51This is two sides of the same coin. They feed each other. They work with each other. You know, here's a cartel member working with the task force. They're all the same. It's just like a different set of tools that you have, you know. And I don't know if you noticed like the use of mirrors throughout, but again, it's a very through the looking glass, like this side and that side. The one thing I'll say that isn't like that, and I don't know, you could maybe make this into a criticism of the movie, but I think it's just also part of the genre. For whatever reason, like Mexican cartels don't typically have the kind of glamour of like the mafia or something like that.

47:27It's usually just like eight levels more fucked up. And, you know, so instead of like Sonny Corleone, you'll have that guy in the red car in the border traffic jam, you know. The guy that like tatted up guy, he's just like closing his eyes, like some of the scariest looking motherfucker you could ever imagine. And you have bodies hanging from overpasses and like walls and walls of like corpses. And so there's not a lot of glamour to that side of it, but there's a bit of glamour to the American special, like the task force unit, you know.

48:00And especially I think, and I love it, but the Josh Brolin character, Matt Graber, he's so cool. Like everything he says is like funny. Oh man. He's just laughing. He's having a good time. Like watching Alejandro just go to work, you know. He's just like chuckling in his flip-flops. He's got like a shit-eating grin on his face while Jon Bernthal is getting like his ear, like rubbed. He's getting a wet willy. Yeah.

48:28That's interesting because we definitely are seeing, yeah, the soldier level on both sides is very different. And we get a glimpse, only that little glimpse in the dinner scene at the very end of what the top cartel member's life is like, what the power structure is. But, you know, you see the cartel members hanging the body, which is one of the like most graphic fucking things I've ever seen. Like the hanging bodies from the bridge. Mutilated bodies. But our, you know, our guys drop more bodies throughout the film with like zero compunction.

49:00Yeah. And at the end when they ask what the rules of engagement are and it's weapons free. Weapons free. Which is basically you can shoot anybody for whatever reason. For whatever. As long as you think he's not one of yours. Yeah. Totally. I think that's right. And that's like they each have different kinds of tools. Like the cartel. Yeah. And one of the guys, Jeffrey Donovan's character, Steve Forcing, even says, he's like, it's brilliant. You mutilate them so bad that the people think they must have done something to deserve it. And he's like, it's brilliant.

49:31He's like, tip of the hat. And as he's saying that. Yeah. If you've already seen the movie once. Yeah. You know what happens to Alejandra's family. Yeah. And you see just Alejandra sitting there having to listen to this guy sort of just nerd out about how cool it is. What they do. Yeah. Yeah. And that whole relationship and his character is, you know, it's revealed, like, I feel like at a perfect pace, we just get trickles of information about him. But he maintains the mystery of his character for so long.

50:05And, yeah. I love the way that it's revealed. You know, we only see him from kind of from behind at first as this sort of mysterious figure. And my understanding is that the screenplay had a lot more sort of dialogue for Alejandro and maybe just exposition. And the thing that I remember the most is that when they're on their private jet, their CIA private jet, before she knows who she's working for or where she's going, she's just met Alejandro. Alejandro and he's sleeping on the plane and his, like, hand is shaking.

50:37And then he wakes up, like, one of the best jump scares is him waking up from what's clearly a nightmare. And just the performance there, the look on his face of, like, just whatever that is. And in the screenplay, apparently, like, you were supposed to see exactly what he was dreaming, which would have been, like, his backstory. It was about his family. And, like, what happened to him. Not knowing that, like, the pulling back the Alejandro character is just so good. Yeah, like Deakins was saying that Benicio was, like, the only actor he had ever worked with who kept wanting to give away his lines.

51:10Like, he would give them to Josh Brolin. And Josh Brolin, he was so, like, impressed that Josh Brolin could just make it sound like he had been, like, rehearsing that for months. So, that's very cool. And I think it's a great choice on both of their parts. There's also another big change. The opening scene was not going to be our opening. It was going to be on Alejandro, like, torturing some guy, almost drowning him. Apparently, like, shot in the morning, which would have been cool, the kind of symmetry of this opening shot in the morning with Alejandro and then, you know, the night with Alejandro.

51:43I could see, like, why that would have been in the script. But, like, you find out that Alejandro is this violent hitman who is, like, on a mission. Now it's his movie. But, like, they cut it. And Deakins, he thinks it was the right decision, but he keeps talking about how much he loved that opening. And he's like, and I was, the first time I saw the movie, like, I was just like, wait, what happened? Where's that scene? Oh, he put the scene later, and then it just never came. I mean, he was, he was bummed, but also, like, yeah, he thought it was absolutely, it has to be from Kate's perspective.

52:18Like, that has to be the first thing. And the opening of this movie is so good. It just immediately brings you in. Yeah. You know, it's like the SWAT team over, like, the shitty tract homes in Arizona coming through the hills and just those, like, black uniforms coming from, like, off screen. Before the movie even starts, you get just a slow rumbling of the score, the da-da-dum-dum. Oh, man. And then you get that title card. The word Sicario comes from the zealots of Jerusalem, killers who hunted the Romans who invaded their homeland.

52:51In Mexico, Sicario means hitman. And then, yeah, you see the, like, convoy and the soldiers coming from the side. Oh, and the dust. It's, like, so cool. Like, the dust coming through the window. Dude, the dust is so good. Yeah. You're seeing the light come through and you're seeing just the dust in the air, which you see a couple of times again. I get the sense from Villeneuve, this feeling of him as an artist where, like, it just comes out of him, where he just says, like, let's shoot it this way. And then it's just because it came out of him, like, there was some deep symbolism there.

53:22Yeah. He says that, yeah, I'm an intuitive filmmaker. Like, only afterwards do I kind of figure out, you know, what exactly I was looking for. Yeah. That soundtrack, by the way, Johan Johansson is the guy who did it. He also did The Arrival. Yeah. Echo Tell. Yes. Yeah. They're similar. Yeah, they're very similar. Yeah. It's also subdued. Like, it's disciplined. Yeah. There's just not a lot there. It's not no country with no, you know, no music, but it's not a lot. Yeah. Yeah. The wah, wah. Yeah. There's like, that just, like.

53:52That's very mid-aughts. It was in my head, like, all day, that score, you know, like, that part of it. It's just great. Like, yeah, and it doesn't overdo it. Like, it really is kind of perfectly, like, matched with, like, a suspenseful scene or something. Yeah. And, like, the way it builds. It's just, I think Villeneuve, like, he's, like, this is cinema. Like, that's what he's trying to do. And that's what he achieves here. Like, all the elements. Yeah. So, she, as the FBI agent, in that initial bust, where they find just a ton of bodies

54:22in the wall, which I'm not sure, like, why they do that, but I guess you've got to dispose. Well, they kept asking, where's the hostages? Where's the hostages? So, I assume they were keeping hostages that they thought they might be able to rescue alive, but no, they were in the walls. No, what I was wondering is why they put them in the walls and not buried them. But I guess it's just hard to get rid of bodies. Yeah. It's hard to bury all those graves. So, she gets in a shooting, like, she shoots the guy, he busted the hole in the wall, and