#470/Authors Trig Thoreson + Owen Hopkins + Craig McDonald + Gusical Guest Lucy Woodward

Modernism and the tax code

0:00I'm Patrick Schumacher with Sahadid Architects, and you're listening to U.S. Modernist Radio. Welcome to U.S. Modernist Radio, where we talk and laugh with people who enjoy, own, create, dream about, preserve, love, and hate. Modernist architecture,

0:34the most exciting and controversial buildings in the world. I'm Tom Guild, and it's author day on our show. We'll meet Trig Thoreson. He wrote a biography of architects Louis Sullivan and Daniel Burnham. Then we've got Owen Hopkins. His book is all about brutalist buildings in London. And Craig McDonald wrote Mid-Century Modern Midland, exploring the architectural history of Midland, Michigan. Later, it's returning musical guest Lucy Woodward, one of our favorites.

1:04And now here's your host, author of absolutely no books on architecture yet, Mr. Modernism, George Smart. Hey, thanks, Tom. It's the great mid-century hostage crisis, as some of America's modernist homes have become prisoners of our tax code. Somewhere in a leafy post-war neighborhood, a 1957 architectural masterpiece is slowly returning to the earth. The flat roof has developed what preservationists call a water feature. The floor-to-ceiling glass is now a floor-to-ceiling

1:37fog, thanks to seals that failed during the Ford administration. The carport shelters a 1994 Buick and approximately 60 years of National Geographic magazines. Inside lives Marge, 87, who bought the house for $22,500 and would rather be buried under the terrazzo than pay capital gains tax. They want a third of my money, Marge says, as her house is now worth $1.4 million, and she's not happy about it. If Marge sells the house, she'll pay capital gains. The house is a mess,

2:09so she can't rent it to anyone. And if she gives it to her kids now, they inherit her microscopic cost basis, meaning they'd pay the tax. And Marge didn't raise her children to pay no stinking taxes. The only move for Marge, sadly, is to die in the house, at which point the cost basis magically steps up to market value and her heirs can sell tax-free. Why won't she at least fix the place? Repairs would only benefit some hypothetical future person, and Marge has met the future and she doesn't care for

2:42it. The realtor said the house has good bones, said Marge. So do I. Neither of us is getting renovated. Meanwhile, a generation of heirs in Patagonia Vest drinking cinnamon lattes lurks nearby, checking Zillow the way their parents check the obituaries. Says Marge's 58-year-old son, Bob, my mom's house is amazing. Original walnut paneling, Nelson benches, the works. I've offered to help her downsize and move out. She told me the only way she's leaving is feet first. And even then,

3:18she wants to be cremated in the breezeway. She's disconnected the smoke detectors because they beeped, so the breezeway thing, that just might work out. U.S. Modernist Radio is underwritten by the Brent R. Harris Charitable Trust, restorer of Richard Neutra's Kauffman Desert House in Palm Springs, and six other houses in California. By the E. Faye Jones Conservancy, preserving the legacy of modernist architecture in Northwest Arkansas, efayjonesconservancy.org. And by Diane Bald and the Budman family, restoring significant architecture in Toronto, Los Angeles, Malibu, and Palm Springs.

Trig Thoreson on Burnham and Sullivan

3:53Trig Thoreson is an English professor who spent 30 years teaching American literature until a school field trip changed everything. Touring Chicago architecture with his students, he stood in front of Louis Sullivan's ornate ironwork at the old Schlesinger and Mayer building. Thor learned that Sullivan's design philosophy was steeped in the writings of the American Transcendentalists, the exact literary tradition he taught. He spent his retirement digging through the archives of the

4:24Art Institute of Chicago, and the result is a new dual biography, Daniel Burnham and Louis Sullivan tracing the forces that shaped two of Chicago's most legendary and rival architects. Here's George's conversation with Trig Thoreson. Thor, before we talk about architecture, let's go back because I understand, my researchers have told me that at River Falls High School, you were quite the card shark. What kind of games did you play? Oh my god, how did that happen? How did you get this information? I was actually

4:59one of the worst at cards in River Falls, but you must have talked to a couple of my buddies or something. We found your high school annual. Oh, no kidding. Yeah, they're all online now. Okay, that's good to know. I'll have to tell them about it. It says you have completely mastered every card game known to man and even a few unknown to man, and that you could drive a golf ball 350 yards. Okay, and none of that is true. They say that about cards because they beat me all the time. Ah, okay. All the time. Gotcha. So that's a bit of an

5:32exaggeration, but I was on the golf team, so there is that. There you go. Now, a lot of people really don't know about Daniel Burnham and Louis Sullivan. These are folks that were born in the 19th century and passed away in the early part of the 20th century. They have quite a legacy, but start us here with the basics about Burnham and Sullivan. Well, Daniel Burnham was born in Upper New York State, came to Chicago in the 1850s. The thing that I sort of highlight in my book is he was a devout Swedenborgian.

6:07That was his religion. The Swedenborgian religion is, I think, very relevant to architecture because Swedenborg talked about embodying spirit in material things, in the materials structured world we have around us. And in fact, Swedenborg's heaven is an architect's dream world. It's got houses, it's got tables, it's got chairs, it's got fountains and landscapes and all sorts of things. So Burnham established himself as an architect doing the typical 19th century kinds of stuff, mostly

6:45based on European models, classical models, and so forth. He married the daughter of his first big commission, a big uppity up in the stockyards. So he was instantly got into this sort of elite group in Chicago. And that gave him access to a lot of other commissions. He established his own company, which became one of the largest architectural firms in the world at the time. And really established himself in Chicago as a key architect. The big thing that people should know

7:19is that he was then made in the 1890s, the chief of construction and director of works for the World Columbian Exposition, which kind of made his reputation, first of all, as an architect, creating these beautiful sort of classically inspired buildings. But also it sort of began his career as a city planner. So he became both a premier architect in Chicago and a city planner. He reshaped the National Mall in Washington and so on. And in all of these activities, he felt that architecture, even

7:55commercial architecture, could embody spiritual truth and spiritual essence, kind of. It was true of the buildings he built at the fair. It's also true of a lot of the plans for the cities that he put together. Some scholars have suggested that there's this sort of Swedenborgian mysticism in some of the city planning he did. Sullivan is sometimes seen as kind of an enemy, in a sense, or... A rival. Rival, a rival. He is a rival, was a rival of Burnham. Sullivan was someone who wanted to depart from the

8:33architectural styles of the time. Create something new, something that he thought fit a democratic country, not Europe, not based on old European models, but a new kind of way of thinking about architecture. But he was involved in the, for example, the World's Fair. He was a colleague of Burnham's. They were actually friends. He admired a lot of things about Burnham, but he hated Burnham's adherence to kind of the Beaux-Arts style and architecture and that kind

9:04of traditional 19th century classically inspired architecture. So long after Burnham had died, when Sullivan wrote his autobiography, he made a pretty famous statement saying that he thought the Columbian Exposition in Chicago basically ruined American architecture for a generation because it inspired all of these sort of Greco-Roman palaces, especially in public buildings. But I think what's fascinating about these two together is that, yes, that's true. They were rivals. They

9:38disagreed about a lot of things, but they were also colleagues. And actually, they had a kind of a friendship and a bond. And one of the things Sullivan did admire about Burnham is that he thought big. Yeah. Then he had a vision and he was very good at making it come true. So that's kind of a nutshell, I think, of at least why I got interested in doing this book.

The World's Columbian Exposition buildings

10:00Now, Sullivan at the Columbian Exposition, he had a very unique building, didn't he? Yes. He did the transportation building, which to some degree departed from the style that Burnham and the New York architects that were invited to join the group had laid out for the fair. It had more color. Mostly the fair was considered the white city. It was a bright white, whitewashed vision. Sullivan's transportation building had a beautiful, very elaborate golden door right in the center of it and more kind of elaborate, colorful touches to it. And so there

10:37were some departures from the standard conventional view of the fair. And it was kind of the architectural hit of the fair. French delegation came and they got fascinated by Sullivan's transportation building. And they celebrated by giving a special room to him back in, I think, in Paris, when they went to show some of the artifacts of the architecture of the fair. It was Sullivan that they celebrated. So even there, he showed his desire not to fit somebody else's idea of what architecture should be.

11:08I'm looking at some photos now online. It's a really beautiful building and it is remarkably different from the other structures there at the exposition. Yes, it certainly is. At the same time, that golden door in the middle that became pretty famous. In fact, Lewis Mumford, I think, said he recalled the latter part of the 19th century, the brown decades, because he thought they were kind of dreary and dark and uninspired. And he said the thing that lasted until the golden door of Louis Sullivan at the exposition in 1893. It was Burnham, actually,

11:45who originally suggested he saw the drawings that Sullivan had put forth. And Sullivan originally had the entrances on both ends of the building. And Burnham said, you know, why don't you take, why don't you have one grand door in the middle? That'll be much more striking. And I think Burnham was right. And the golden door from that building became one of the famous sort of focal points of the fair. Now, are there any of these buildings left from that fair? Most of them were destroyed. A lot of them were destroyed in the fire. They were meant to be temporary. The Museum of Science and Industry is

12:19basically rebuilt in solid masonry, according to the design of the Fine Arts Pavilion. It's not the same building because those buildings were, again, meant to be temporary. They were built out of kind of a plaster and amp mixture called staff. They were not meant to last. That's still there. The Art Institute, the older part of the Art Institute, was built just before the fair to be the sort of the place where speakers would come and give their presentations. So you could see that. It wasn't part

12:51of the fair itself. There are little bits and pieces around that used to be. I don't know if it's there anymore, but I think a Viking ship that was on display was taken to Lincoln Park and places like that. There's not very much left. It was mostly Jackson Park, where the Obama Center is now. And that mostly just went back to Parkland. You said earlier that part of the motivation at this time was about

Spiritualism in commercial architecture

13:17putting spiritualism into the buildings. And help me figure out what that is. How do you tell a building that's got it versus one that doesn't? That's a tricky question. I will give you that. One way to do that is the infusion of light into a building. So many of these commercial buildings, for example, not just from Burnham and Sullivan, but from everybody, he would have had to have a light court because they wanted light to penetrate into the interior office as well as the exterior.

13:48And so they all welcomed the light in. But I would say if you go to a place like the Rookery in Chicago, which is a Burnham and Root building, the way they created that atrium and the beautiful ironwork that invites the light down into the center court is almost a spiritual kind of, gives you a spiritual kind of feeling. For Sullivan, that came out of his kind of nature mysticism. He was a very big fan of Walt Whitman. A lot of people have traced his influences back to

14:19the transcendentalists of the 19th century. So infusing nature into his buildings or using nature as a kind of inspiration, sort of the essence of his architectural idea. He said, you always begin with a seed germ. And that just develops. You watch how that develops into, especially the ornamentation, which he was very, very big on. So for example, if you go to the Sullivan Center, used to be Carson Perry Scott in downtown Chicago. The first two stories have this very elaborate ironwork that

14:52Sullivan designed, which is tendrils of plants, you know, it's sort of frozen in time in a very elaborate, very organic, I guess you could say, at least suggesting an organic interest. So with Sullivan, it was nature. I would say with Burnham, it was many things, including light. Late in Sullivan's life, when Sullivan was doing banks, these small rural banks, his practice was not doing well. He was living

15:24pretty close to poverty, because he was such an individual. He was so kind of insistent on his own vision for the buildings. But he created these beautiful little rural banks that are almost all, I think maybe all of them are still in existence. And when I visited the bank in Grinnell, Iowa, I went in, and the very elaborate ornamentation that is very much part of what Sullivan did, along with stencils, beautiful elaborate colors and so forth, but also enormous colored glass windows,

15:58basically stained glass windows, even a rose window over the entrance. The people who work there told me, they frequently had people from Grinnell College come and visit the bank. And this one group came in, and they're kind of stumbling around, looking around, you know, impressed. And I think they like the building, but looking especially at the stained glass. And one of the students actually asked the person at the desk, so was, did this used to be a church? Was this a church? Because this extensive

16:32and elaborate use of stained glass was so impressive. And, you know, they're still impressive today. And again, there's these little banks in Iowa and Indiana and Ohio. But I would encourage any listener to, if you haven't, if you happen to be in those areas, Grinnell, Iowa, Owatonna, Minnesota, and places like that. These are beautiful, beautiful buildings. I guess they're used to wide-eyed architecture fans dropping in by now. Yes, they are. When I would stop in, I'd always sort of wonder, are they going to

17:04mind if I just wander around and stare? Yeah. They have books out and things like that. So they have a lot of people coming. They have little sign-in books. Oh, wow. People from France and Italy and all over the place who come and look at them. So, yeah, I think they do that. They like it. There's a wonderful guy who gave us, my wife and I, a private tour, basically, of the Owatonna Bank, which was great. And I think, actually, in answer to your original question, I think, especially, you know, with Sullivan, if you go to the banks, I think you will see the idea that a commercial

17:38building can also contain a kind of spiritual essence. Is it a beauty thing combined with the light? Is that what it is? Is it just more than pure function? Yes, I think so. Of course, you know, Sullivan is the form follows function guy. Right. But he was also very much concerned about the ornamentation, the details of the ornamentation. Another example might be, and again, it's a little hard to separate this from, I don't necessarily want to separate it from other architects or builders

18:14at the time, because many, some of the architects there really thought religion was kind of where the highest forms of architecture were expressed, and like the churches and so forth. Cathedrals. But, you know, if you go into what is now Macy's downtown, used to be Marshall Fields, there's a series of kind of a space there where it's maybe five stories high, you go up and you see beautiful mosaic designs at the top. You know, it just looks like something more than a department store. So it's hard to define. And I think everybody, any individual who goes in will

18:48have a different way of thinking about it. But I do think you can see these spaces as in some way, as they viewed them, somewhat sacred spaces. Louis Sullivan had a famous student who worked for him and went on to his own fame and fortune. That was Frank Lloyd Wright. Actually, the initial title I had for this book, which everybody hated, except me, was Uncle Dan, Beloved Master. Daniel Burnham was known to his friends and associates as

19:19Uncle Dan. Frank Lloyd Wright revered Sullivan. Yes. And called him his Liebermeister, his beloved master, all his life. They had a falling out, they came back together. So they had, you know, sometimes a rocky relationship, but Wright always looked to Sullivan as his inspiration. And in part, you know, we tend to associate Frank Lloyd Wright with organic architecture. I think in pretty large part, that goes back to Sullivan's nature mysticism, the transcendental ideas that he was so immersed in, that Frank Lloyd Wright

19:55then took and developed his own version of or direction from. So yeah, Frank Lloyd Wright, very much a Sullivan disciple in many ways. When people go to Chicago, what are some of the buildings they should be sure to go visit? Well, I mentioned the rookery before. I love that atrium. If you can see a performance at the Auditorium Theater, that's Sullivan, Adler and Sullivan, I should say, Dankmar Adler and Louis Sullivan. If you want to see a wonderful space from a

20:29demolished building, the old Stock Exchange, Chicago Stock Exchange was in the Adler and Sullivan building. And the entire trading room has been transferred to the Art Institute and recreated there. And that's a wonderful Sullivan space. The Burnham folks, the Reliance Building is a really interesting building that's on State Street. And that has a really interesting structural story. They actually built most of the Reliance Building on stilts because they had to keep the leases in the old

21:01building going while they rebuilt underneath it. When the leases were up, they completed the building. The other Burnham building that I think is historically interesting, certainly, is the Monadnock, which is still standing. And that's a more severe, that's really kind of a more modernist, kind of maybe a proto-modernist kind of building with relatively unornamented exterior, kind of a simple impression that you get from the outside. So I would say those are the key ones. The book is Daniel Burnham and Louis Sullivan, Personal Histories of Two Icons of American

21:36Architecture. Thanks again. Thank you, George. I appreciate it. That was George's conversation with Trig Thorison.

Owen Hopkins on brutalism and politics

21:44Architectural historian Owen Hopkins has written or edited 20 books on architecture and writes articles on everything from 18th century architecture to post-modernism. His stories have appeared in architectural design, the zine, the independent, and blueprint, among many others. A graduate of the Courtauld Institute in London, Owen has served as architectural program curator at the Royal Academy of Arts, senior curator at Sir John Soane's Museum, and is now the director of Newcastle University's

22:16New Farrell Center, an institution devoted to architecture and cities. During the pandemic, he hosted the podcast 20 by 20, and his latest book is called The Manifesto House. He also wrote a book about brutalism, those large concrete buildings many people love, and King Charles and Roger Scruton hate, hate, hate. Did I mention hate? Just as the book points out, brutalist architecture inspires a passionate response, be it adulation or contempt. And there's lots of both to go around. Welcome, Owen.

22:49Thanks for having me. So where do we start, with brutalism or the manifesto house? Well, where do you want to start? Yeah, two quite different subjects, in a way, although there is a little bit of intersection between them. I think there's probably one of my 21 manifesto houses that I selected, I think, is brutalist, which is Harry and Penelope Sidler's house, which is this amazing sort of sculptural, concrete series of platforms and volumes and voice. I mean, it's, yeah, amazing.

23:22You have written that there was a political element to brutalism's rise in the UK and people loving it, and also another political element in its recent demonization. So tell me about those. Well, I think it's hard to separate brutalism from politics one way or another, as you say. And certainly in the UK context, brutalism is often seen, and I think quite rightly, although inevitably the situation is always more complicated, as part of the mission of the post-war consensus,

23:55the welfare state, seen as, in many ways, the most radical embodiment of those collectivist, social democratic policies. Most brutalism, certainly in the UK, and I would imagine pretty much everywhere else is, after all, social housing, state-owned public housing. And actually it was for that reason that it became such a target for those looking to attack that post-war social democratic consensus. These buildings were just so visible, so present, that actually a way to attack

24:25those policies and the ideology that underpin it was to attack the buildings. And that's what happened. I think, you know, that demonization is still very much in play, but at the same time there has obviously been, over the last 15 years or so, or longer actually now, this amazing revival of interest in brutalism. And it's become, if not widely revered, but it has become something that actually devotees are hugely interested in, animated by. And I think quite rightly, these are some of the

24:55the great buildings, certainly of the 20th century and maybe of any period. And I've read that a number of the arch-conservatives in London are now living in what used to be social housing, because it's very tony now and expensive to buy these condos in these former social housing spots. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's a strange, it's a paradoxical thing. So I think probably the most famous or infamous example of that is Balfron Tower, which is this amazing tower block in East London in Poplar by

25:30Erno Goldfinger. And yes, it was built as council housing, you know, was council housing for most of its life until relatively recently, about a decade ago, the council tenants were decanted, to use that horrible word. Wow, that is quite a euphemism. I have not heard that one before. That is, that is the word that's used. Decanted like wine, just sort of poured in from one container to another? Is that the... Yes. Well, yes. Although usually from one container and to be dispersed is usually what happens.

26:05And the idea was that the building would become, Balfron Tower itself would be sold private, all the flats would be restored into that kind of mid-century modern aesthetic that's now become fashionable and easy to commercialise. And the income from that would be used to refurbish the surrounding estate, which was going to remain council housing. I don't know if it's all worked out like that, but it certainly seems in a weird way perverse for this great emblem of the welfare

26:37state to become, you know, a fashionable place where brutalism has become an aesthetic to be acquired, I suppose. And it's, you know, a reflection of the world we live in now where there is no money for social housing renovation or very, very little without some kind of offset from private sale. When did brutalism turn the corner from adulation to contempt?

The turning point against modern architecture

27:02Well, in the UK, for one example, the moment, the turning point is usually seen to be 1968 when a tower block in East London, another tower block in East London, although rather less architecturally distinguished, called Ronan Point, there was a gas explosion and it partially collapsed and it revealed that it had been built incredibly badly. It was one of these system built panel constructions and the panels hadn't been properly bolted

27:32together and they found kind of rubbish and bits of newspaper where the join should be. And it was a, it was a scandal. And I think that really sort of in retrospect marked the beginning of that sort of turn against modern architecture in the popular consciousness, although it wasn't actually brutalist. I think brutalism was that easy target just because it was so in your face and so bloody minded. But of course, I think in the US, Charles Jenks, the great chronicler of postmodernism, he cited the destruction, the demolition of the Puri Aigo estate in St.

28:10Louis by Minoru Yamasaki as, as the moment when modern architecture died. I can't remember the precise quote, but it's something like three o'clock in the afternoon in 1971, you know, the dynamite. I think he defines it with boom, boom, boom, dynamite went. And he cited that. That's the moment when, when modern architecture died. And I think there's probably something in that, although Jenks was, you know, a wonderful and poetic writer and was not too bothered, certainly in that example with, with historical accuracy. I think he admitted of making up the

28:45time for dramatic effect, but it served that purpose. And that was also not long before the oil crisis, 1973, of which we're kind of living through echoes now, when, you know, these buildings, which were conceived for a period, an era, when it was assumed that oil energy would remain cheap and plentiful in perpetuity. And you didn't need to worry about things like insulation or coal bridging

29:17or leaky single glazing because a big plant fed by free or more or less free energy would do all the heating, cooling, humidity regulation that you needed in your building. And obviously we now know that that was ludicrous, right? But that was the assumption at the time. And then that, that oil shockens the sudden increase of the cost of energy suddenly made fast sways of public housing, more or less uneconomical to heat. So I think that played a big, a big part in it as well. But it,

29:50you know, it was caught up in the whole, what we now calls neoliberalism, the rise of Reagan and Thatcher, the cult of the individual, and the way that defined itself against the previous era, which I, which I think even in the U S was much more sort of collectivist in its, in its ethos. Now in 1968, with that incident in London, was that the thing that kind of put Prince Charles, now King Charles over the edge as being a critic of modernism?

30:21I don't know. I don't know if he's recorded as, said anything about that at the time. He, well, Prince Charles was born, well, King Charles even was born in 1945, I think that's... About, yes. Yeah. So... He would have been 23, 24. Yeah. So relatively young still. And yeah, I think it was really in the 1980s when he got going as a, as a, as an architecture critic, I think it's probably fair to say. Emphasis on the critical. Well, it was things like the Mansion House proposal in, in London, where there was going to be a Mies van der Rohe tower

30:59and end up having an amazing postmodern building by Jim Sterling. He weighed in on that. There's comments about the National Theatre, an amazing brutalist building by Dennis Lasden, where he describes it as something along the lines of a good way to disguise a nuclear power station on the banks of the Thames. Ooh, burn! Yeah. And then the monstrous carbuncle speech, which was targeted at the winning entry in the competition

31:31for the extension to the National Gallery. And, you know, it's, these things go in cycles, so the National Gallery is now building a new extension, but this was the one from the 1980s and early 1990s. And practice, Aaron's Bert and Korolek, a really good practice and a very clever, sophisticated proposal was derided by the then prince and end up being, being chucked out. And ultimately that commission ended up going to Robert Venturi and Denise Scott Brown.

32:01And we got a very great postmodern building in its place, which we're lucky to have in a way, although the National Gallery has recently mutilated it. And I don't know if that was more to Prince Charles' taste or not. I don't think he was a postmodernist either, but it does have some classical columns, so he could probably be happy with that. I notice that both in the UK and the US, while there's criticism of council housing and other kinds of residential buildings that are brutalist, it seems that the brutalist churches escape unscathed.

32:37People have a love for those and want to see them last. That's an interesting observation. I think it's to do with building types. I mean, there's lots of brutalist or modernist churches in Britain that aren't very well looked after, but then probably most churches aren't very well looked after in Britain. There are so many, and the congregations are now so much smaller than they used to be. But I think it's interesting, perhaps, you know, ecclesiastical buildings don't have the same connotations as housing, but also public buildings

33:09as well. I mean, there's so many examples, again, in the UK, and I imagine this is true, probably in other countries as well, where brutalists, libraries, schools, civic centres have been knocked down. And what I find so kind of fascinating, but also depressing, is the way it's done without irony, because the councillors who put these plans into action, you know, will lament the fact that their forebears in the 1960s knocked down the great sort of

33:42ornate Victorian town halls and libraries and civic buildings, yet they're prepared to do exactly the same a few generations later with the 1960s building. And I imagine, again, two or three generations time, in this kind of cyclical way, the buildings that they built in the 2000s or the 2010s are not building out much of anything like that anymore in Britain, will be knocked down. And again, you know, the cycle will repeat. So, as you say, the churches, I guess, because, you know, consecrated buildings have a

34:15certain status as well. Yes. I think that probably helps. They're treated with more respect. But yes, you say, they haven't been vilified, I think, in the same way. I know when I go into a brutalist church, as opposed to, say, a Gothic cathedral, I get a great positive vibe. And they are different. The vibe of a Gothic is different than a vibe of a modernist. But it's there, to me, and really powerful. And I'm guessing that people just experience that kind of a vibe. And whether

34:46it's associated with God or just great architecture, you know, they want to keep it. Yeah, I think that's true. Yeah. And perhaps it's also to do with scale. And the fact that, you know, brutalist housing often made use of factory-built panels bolted together. There's a kind of monotony to it a lot of the time, which is one of the interesting things about it. And that's how it sort of expresses its sort of collective status, I suppose. But obviously, churches tend

35:16not to be built that way. They're more, maybe more, obviously, sculptural. And I guess one-offs or ones-off, I don't quite know how you should put that. They're one of a kind. You can cut that in. Yeah. The churches are one of a kind.

The Manifesto House concept

35:31Speaking of one-of-a-kind things, your newest book is The Manifesto House, where you looked at different houses around the world and the message they're trying to send us. And I'd like to know, what were some of those messages? Let's start with a famous one in America, Falling Water. What was Frank Lloyd Wright trying to communicate to us in that? Well, lots of things, I suppose. Yeah. So The Manifesto House, I mean, I could probably briefly introduce the concept as well. This is a book that is about houses,

36:05but it's also about architectural ideas and how these are conveyed, are embodied in the single house as a particular type that has this thread that runs through architectural history. So in a way, the book is a sort of experiment in architectural history, a different way of looking at the trajectories, the ways forward, but also the dead ends. And it contains lots of very well-known buildings, some lesser known. Obviously, one of the most famous single house designs was Falling

36:41Water, the example that you mentioned, which had to be included. Although it's difficult with Frank Lloyd Wright, because he'd signed so many fascinating houses, but given it is the most iconic one, it had to be included. And in terms of the messages it puts forward, I mean, I think, you know, Frank Lloyd Wright talked about organic architecture, which is curiously a phrase which the then Prince Charles picked up, I think probably unaware of its previous coinage with Frank Lloyd

37:12right. It's about creating a building that sat within nature. I mean, it is the sort of most extraordinary building that sits not alongside the ravine, as might be a more conventional thing to do, but sits directly on top of it. The building has become almost a sort of geological formation, and it blurs with the surroundings in really sort of fascinating ways with these sort of trays which extend out with these great cantilevers. So you're sort of standing amid the canopy, you're above the ravine

37:48in the trees, and it's sort of, it's architecture that's been brought together with nature in a really sort of profound, almost spiritual way. So the manifesto house, again, is a type, is by definition usually a fairly elitist thing, quite a rarefied thing. It's when architects are given the opportunity to test their ideas. And this was one example. I mean, it's not just any old house, it was a house

38:19with a client who wanted Frank Lloyd Wright to build the house, who wanted something really, really special. And, you know, I think was prepared to put up with some of the challenges around it as well. And these costs are approximate, but I think it was around $136,000 to build Falling Water. And then 25 years ago, it was about $11 million to fix it. And then most recently, another $7 million to fix it again. So you have to really be devoted to some of these

38:52houses to keep them going. Absolutely. I like the second bill to fix it again. Yeah. Yes. And I think, you know, one of the things I discussed in the introduction to the book is actually, in a funny way, one of the characteristics of the manifesto house is perhaps they don't work that well. Yeah. Technically, maybe spatially too, because they are, in almost every instance, trying to do something new or different and are, again, by definition, have to be not bound by the existing ways of

39:24making a house and the normative ways of designing single houses and building single houses, which have been sort of internalised, which do gradually change and evolve over time. You know, the shift to open plan living and things like that, the kitchen becoming maybe the centre of the house, whereas previously it was a sort of functional room off the living space. These changes do take place, but it's a much slower thing, whereas the manifesto house is a polemical statement,

39:57an encapsulation of architectural ideas at particular moments in time. Tell me about some houses outside the U.S. that our listeners might not be familiar with that were in your book. Well, there are lots, and we try to have a good geographical spread. So one of the houses you mentioned in the introduction is Sir John Soane's Museum, which is a museum that I worked in, which was a house museum. And it was where Sir John Soane lived with his wife and his sons, and he turned it into an architectural laboratory in the early 19th century. And it's where he tested out

40:34his ideas of taking the classical language of architecture and really sort of distilling it down to a kind of bare essence. And he's kind of almost of sinuous proto-modern, but also kind of weirdly proto-postmodernist forms and the way he's played with light and then filled it with this extraordinary collection of architectural fragments and sculpture and paintings and furniture. You know, it was in some ways, you know, it's a total work of art, but it was also deeply autobiographical too. So

41:07there are parts of the museum where the only way really to understand them is if you're kind of walking into the architect's mind. It's a kind of repository of memory and of these forms that then point to these experiences on the Grand Tour. And it's deeply strange and rather sort of haunting place, I always find, but one which is just overflowing with ideas and belief in architecture really is the kind of the mother of the arts. So that's one that I know quite well. But then,

41:40you know, there's a house coming back into the modern era, the Melnikov house in Moscow by the constructivist architect Konstantin Melnikov. And this is a really fascinating building in a whole number of different ways. I mean, for a start, it's a private house built in 1927 in, you know, the first decade or so of communism, where the focus was entirely on collectivism and of mass housing and of transforming the country and architecture being kind of an active agent for that. You know,

42:17incredibly exciting time for architects, at least in that initial constructivist period before Stalinist bombastic socialist realism came in. And Melnikov was one of the kind of key figures of that era, which is why I think he was probably allowed to build a house for himself. And, you know, formally, it's really fascinating as he's sort of two cylinders intersecting with each other and this sort of diamond windows are sort of punched through one of the cylinders. And the idea was

42:48that, you know, in keeping with this constructivist architecture, which I guess is all about sort of machines and technology and the future and sort of fluidity, the idea was that more windows could be punched through as and when they were required. And as ever with architecture that's conceived to be kind of flexible in that way, it tends not to be the case. I don't think that ever happened or was particularly realistic. But there's some amazing construction photographs, which actually reveal that this very modern looking house that was really kind of conceived to reflect this, this avant-garde

43:24architectural movement was actually built in a very traditional way, because that's actually the building technology that was at hand. It wasn't built of concrete, it was built of brick using traditional methods. So it's this kind of weird paradox of, on the one hand, trying to run in towards the future of it being held up by technology. So, Owen, are there any manifesto houses going up now around the UK? I know that Mr. Bean, Rowan Atkinson, built a rather statement Richard Meyer house a number of years ago, but I'm wondering if there are

44:01others you're aware of that are going up. It's an interesting question. It's not one I really thought about, but now you mentioned I really should have said, you know, what are the manifesto houses going up now? It's hard to say. I mean, there's one that does spring to mind, which was a house I actually was able to go and see. It's in Scotland, in a little village, it's called Plockton, and it's incredibly remote, it's in the highlands of Scotland. And it's a kind of beautiful combination

44:32of drawing from vernacular forms, but in a really frisp, quite modern way. It makes use of, I think, only three materials, essentially, in it. So, there's clay, which is used for clay brick walls, there's a clay floor, there's a beautiful timber framework, and then there's a very, very thin metal roof. And they like this sort of conceit of the very, very thick, highly insulated walls with this very thin, sort of just almost sort of paper-like floating roof above. And it's tiny,

45:07tiny little house, but it's all kind of perfectly formed and shaped. And I think, for me, you know, you could look at this house and say, well, yes, it's a beautiful, almost sort of work of art kind of thing. But for me, it's actually, it had more to it. In it, it felt actually there was a whole architectural philosophy at work about economy of materials, about craftsmanship, about, I guess, the sort of care and attention that you can put on a project as an architect. Everything was

45:39perfectly balanced. Everything was thought through. Spacing of the rafters was set up so a skylight would fall just perfectly aligned above the bath and things like, you know, it's just, it was all highly wrought and thought through in a way that kind of felt almost effortless. But you know, to achieve that effortlessness always takes a lot of time, a lot of care, a lot of intelligence. So it's called Eurum by a practice called Bailey Bailey, who I think are making a name for themselves in Scotland with this really kind of carefully considered, but sort of very sort of

46:15environmentally aware without it being sort of shoved down your face. It's an architecture that reflects a kind of sensibility towards materials and space that I think has got a lot going for it.

The legacy of star architects

46:27Now, you wrote an article for Dezean in February about star architects, and there's a whole train of thought about how we've lost a number of starry architects in the last couple of years, but we've still got them. And I know that there's always discussion every few years about whether star architects are good, whether star architects are bad, whether they help the profession, whether they hurt the profession. I guess my question to you is, is architecture really that different from

46:57everything else where we have stars there? I mean, we have stars of tech companies, and we have stars of movies and stars of sports. Architecture seems like it has mixed feelings about having its own stars. Yeah, I think, I think that's right. And I think, as you say, in many ways, architecture is not different. The rise of the celebrity in all fields is a function of the media. And I think in architecture, you know, they've always been famous architects. You know, Palladio was a famous

47:28architect. Le Corbusier was a famous architect. But obviously, there's the sort of the generation of the star architects, which is, I guess, historically specific to really sort of 1990s. And, you know, an era that was, you know, inaugurated by, you know, Frank Gehry's Guggenheim and Bilbao, and the way the star architect is synonymous with the iconic building. And I think, you know, architects, I think there's, there's always a lot of jealousy. Ah, yes, absolutely.

47:59There's always, you know, annoyance at other people's success, especially if you think it's unwarranted, or people have jumped the queue, or all those kinds of things. I mean, architects are, yeah, can get a little bit upset. It's like middle school, in some cases. It is, yeah. It's a small world where, you know, your career is defined by the opportunities you get, as much as it is by your own talent. So there's always going to be this sort of competition, and that sort of part and parcel of it. But, you know, I think the criticism of the star architect, I guess it's partly politically motivated as well. And I think, you know, we've seen the

48:34sort of unionization of, of architects of, you know, which is inherently collaborative in the way it has to work. But to try to actually put that at the top of the agenda and not feel that the star architects, the stars, the practice leaders are overshadowing the people who, in many instances, are actually doing the work. So I think it's sort of part and parcel that turn away from the era of the star architect. Also, the simple fact as well, that for the most part, they are white men of a,

49:04of a certain vintage. And, you know, we're living in an age where, you know, diversity is rightly valued and architects are anything but diverse. And Saha Hadid was the exception who, who proved the rule. I mean, as I think I'm describing the piece, the starriest of the, of the star architects and was, was an extraordinary figure that, you know, architectural culture, I think remains horror for losing Saha prematurely. But on the whole, you know, star architects represents, I think, an outdated

49:35idea of privilege. And it's right that we should look for other ways of representing ourselves and valuing ourselves as, as, as a profession. The argument I was making that I get all that and I agree with a lot of it. But at the same time, I think having figureheads, people who do have wider recognition beyond the profession, who can speak to policymakers, can speak to politicians, can have influence over business leaders, that is hugely valuable, not just to those individuals, but to the profession as a whole

50:12and to what we think of as the potential that architecture has that maybe, you know, is not being tapped or, or utilized to its full extent. The book is The Manifesto House. Owen, thanks so much for joining us. Thank you very much. George was speaking with Owen Hopkins. Craig McDonald's career

Craig McDonald on Midland architecture

50:31in architectural preservation began at the age of 15, working at the Alden B. Dow Home and Studio in Midland, Michigan. Midland is a small city in central Michigan that most people wouldn't think to name alongside Palm Springs or New Canaan as a modernist hotbed. Yet, it is home to over 430 mid-20th century modern buildings designed by more than 39 architects, most of them by Alden B. Dow. Today, McDonald serves as executive director of the Dow Home and Studio and the Dow Family Foundations. Craig

51:06McDonald told George all about Midland. Craig, there's so much to talk about in Midland. It's a place that most people have never heard of. And once they find out once there, they're amazed. But I want to start off by asking you to tell our listeners about the Submarine Room. What is that? The Submarine Room is just one of the most dynamic spaces that I've ever been in in any structure. It is a floating conference room as part of the second addition to the Alden Dow Home and Studio that is

51:40submerged 18 inches below the water level. So when you walk down into the room and sit, you are at level with water with the most beautiful reflective light on these angled fuchsia-colored ceilings. It's just the most dynamic and interesting space I think many people have ever been in. And there's a photograph of the building from the outside taken by Balthazar Korab that time after time, people will say, I have had this photograph on my desk for 10, 20 years. I've always wanted to see this room.

52:13And who designed the house? Alden Dow, who was a fellow of the American Institute of Architects. And he designed this studio and home together from 1934 through 1941 as a place to create architecture and a place for he and his family to live. Dow is kind of the patron saint of Midland architecture, isn't he? It really is. He is the person who brought modernism to Midland and to many other cities throughout the state of Michigan, Ann Arbor, East Lansing, Kalamazoo, Bloomfield Hills. He introduced it

52:47and kind of made the way and the introduction for modern architecture. His father, Herbert Henry Dow, also had interest in architecture, although clearly his career went into chemistry. But his father had interest in architecture and really spurred Alden to look up architects, took Alden and his siblings on great travels to Japan to see the Imperial Hotel. And so architecture and design and beauty and how nature and structure blend together were often topics for Alden Dow growing up with his

53:18family. And did Dow study with Wright? Dow did study with Wright. Dow had received his Bachelor of Architecture degree from Columbia and was waiting for his registration to go through when he and his wife, Veda Bennett Dow, joined the Taliesin Fellowship in 1933. And we can document that he was there from April. to November in 1933 as part of the, truly the second year, but considered charter members of the

53:50Taliesin Fellowship. And in talking and reading about Mr. Dow, he really went to reinforce his own ideas of what organic architecture was. He so admired Wright's tenacity, his playfulness, and the beauty that Wright created. He just had a lifelong admiration for Mr. Wright. Now, as far as I can tell, and I hope you'll correct me if I'm wrong, the first house that Dow did was for his sister, Margaret. Is that right? That is correct. His sister, Margaret, had moved to Ann Arbor to go to the University of Michigan,

54:22where she obtained her college degrees. It is the first house he designed with a copper roof. It's very organic. It's before his time with Frank Lloyd Wright. It's a house that his sister lived in her entire adult life and kept adding on as they had children. It kept adding on and adding on. It's a phenomenal house that was very controversial. He had to fight City Hall on ceiling heights and many details that he wanted in a very traditional neighborhood. It was not a welcome

54:53structure in the beginning. So, was he fighting to make it taller or shorter? Because it's not that huge a house. He wanted ceiling heights to be shorter. I've never heard of fighting City Hall on getting a shorter ceiling. He did a series of maquettes that were actually put into the structure right by the entryway. And one is of an architect's head surrounded in red tape. Yes. Another one is an architect in front of a compass running in all directions. And he and his siblings had such great humor. And so, he made fun of having these challenges of

55:24he was starting to redefine things with not just the look, but how we function, how we're building, you know, fields and what a structure can do for us. And that was the very beginning with great humor. Now, is it true that this was the first house in America to have an attached garage facing the street? Right. We have not substantiated that totally. We know it's one of the first houses and it's often cited in that way. Yeah. And we have not been able to totally 100% prove that, but it did have an attached garage.

55:58And, you know, today you take that for granted, right? Or that a garage has to be a part of a house. Yeah, right. But this was 1932, 1933, somewhere in there. Correct. That's really early. Yeah. It was an unusual house in that it has a sloping copper roof. It has lead glass windows, which I think is an influence from where he did an internship at Frantz & Spence of Saginaw, the kind of leading architects of this region where he lived. And you see those lead glass windows

56:28and some of their early designs. And then whitewashed Rick, which apparently his sister, Margaret Dow Towsley, wanted. So, it did have a very unusual look to it. And it just is beautifully woven into this corner lot on Berkshire Street in Ann Arbor, Michigan. Well, it's really incredible. And the book is covering not just Dow, but many other architects around the area. Who are some of the other architects that you talk about?

Alden Dow and organic design

56:55Well, we learned a great deal. You know, in Midland, we had documented the work of Alden Dow for quite some time and have his list, pretty accurate, finite list of his buildings, you know, over 100 buildings he did in Midland. And then there were many people who worked for him and we knew their names. Francis Red Warner, Jackson Hallett, Glenn Beach, a really innovative architect, Robert Schwartz, who never worked with Mr. Dow, but went to the University of Michigan and was an assistant to Buckminster Fuller. Well, Fuller was a visiting scholar and, of course, ends up

57:27designing a dome and using Dow, developed styrofoam in many of his designs. And for the most part, in addition to some of the other people who worked for Alden Dow in his firm, we didn't know a great deal. We just knew there were so many more structures that we couldn't identify. And there were so many, we're not talking like 50 or 60, we're talking a few hundred. And so we said, you know, we need to tell this full story. And with the support of our trustees and just saying, yes,

57:59of course, we should tell the whole story. That began our desire to document all the architecture because we thought, could we possibly have the most one-of-a-kind mid-century modern buildings from 1930 to 1970 than any other city? And what did you determine? We determined that we have 403 individual structures. Ours are predominantly residential. There are 326 residential designs, which is very different than a Columbus, Indiana, which are predominantly public buildings.

58:31Yeah. Oh, very much so. So yeah, you're rocking it in terms of houses. In terms of individual houses and materials, we identified over 50 architects, engineers, and designers who added to this 403. We haven't found a city yet that has more than 403 from that time period of one-of-a-kind individual structures. It's quite a portfolio. Last year, we had on the daughter of Ervin de Bachman, who talked about his work in that area. And I was just fascinated at the range of houses and buildings that he did.

59:05Yeah. I mean, I think there was one Tabachman in Midland. There is a Tabachman, and I can look it up. It was amazing to us who all was represented. Many people we had never heard of before. Midland is a city of engineers and chemists, and so there were engineers who designed their own houses, but very much with the physical characteristics of mid-century architecture. The bulk of them do lie with Mr. Dow and the people who worked at his firm and Robert Schwartz. Okay. You know, we have an app and a website where you can look up any of those structures,

59:38and actually, you can look up more than we have documented in the book. We truly picked 1930 to 1970 for the true mid-century. There are things that went on after that that are in the app and on our website, Mid-Century Modern Midland, that you can look up because the influence didn't stop, but we wanted a begin date and an end date for mid-century. When people come to Midland, are there any special events during the year that they can plan around? They can always come to the Alden Dow Home and Studio that has public tours Tuesday through

1:00:12Saturday, and you can do private tours and other programs here. And then a few times a year that we have specialty tours where we get other homeowners, other building owners to open it. We have speakers who come in. We've had the head of the AIA Michigan speak. We've had Susan Bandys, who's documented the architectural work of Mid-Michigan and the greater Lansing area come in. Henry Whiting, who is a Frank Lloyd Wright homeowner and a grand-nephew of Alden Dow. Mr. Pappas from Constantine

1:00:44Pappas, excuse me, from the Detroit area to talk about religious architecture because we're known as the City of Churches for several years in Midland. And 17 of those roughly 100 churches in Midland are mid-century modern. Oh, wow. The mid-century modern churches from the era are so beautiful. They're some of the most spectacular buildings you can, with Mr. Dow's in particular, because I know them the best, that he really studies and understands the religion. And so there's so much symbolism of the faith in the structures. And so it's always so lovely. Another interesting church in Midland is

1:01:18by Franz and Spence, the very firm Alden Dow was apprenticing at before he's registered. They're a very traditional architectural firm when he is there. But then as time goes on, because of his influence, they turn mid-century modern. And so the First Baptist Church in Midland, Michigan is a mid-century building by Franz and Spence. So they kind of came full circle because of him. How does the nonprofit that you work for work during the year?

1:01:49I am fortunate to work for the Alden and Veda Dow Family Foundation that was established by Veda Dow and her children to really preserve and share the work of Alden Dow here in the Alden Dow Home and Studio, which is a National Historic Landmark building. Their focus was education. The bulk of our time is spent on developing curriculum-based educational experiences for fourth grade through the rest of education and other programming for adults to teach about the uniqueness of each human.

1:02:19Mr. Dow was a phenomenal architect, but he and Mrs. Dow together were so invested in helping people develop their innate skills and talents to become happy, healthy humans. We do tours of the building. We do lots of educational programming. And it's amazing what you can teach with something like the home and studio. We can talk about basic resources of social studies, but we do it through architecture. We can teach young writers about sensory details by being in the space and finding what they connect to and then helping them bring words that bring visuals to someone who's reading their

1:02:54words. And so we really try to develop unique experiences to help develop young minds and connect to what they're already passionate about and to develop critical thinking skills. Walking up to this building and stepping into it is a different definition than anyone's ever had before. Right. Now, have you all gotten a Lego set yet of the Home and Studio? No, we're busting to have a Lego set. It's one of our big goals to get Lego. We are so many levels and

1:03:25it's it is such a complicated, spectacular building that it is one of our dreams to have a Lego building of the Alden Dajon Studio. I've been to several of the Lego demonstrations, you know, they have all around the country all year long and looking at how they're putting these things together, modeling different buildings. And I don't think yours would be their biggest challenge. They've probably got some way to figure this out for you. Well, then I am putting a few people, including myself, on it because let's host a Lego demonstration in Midland, Michigan and get it figured out.

1:03:59That is just fantastic. In my area, in Durham, North Carolina, Dow did a home for the president of Duke University back, I believe, in the 70s. And it is now used as a, I believe it's either a guest house or a house for the head of the health system. Yeah, I think they use it for entertaining. Yes. And for other purposes, it's no longer the home for the president of Duke. It's a spectacular structure. The then president was very involved in helping to define what they wanted and needed.

1:04:35And they really liked Mr. Dow's unit block system that he had developed in the 1930s, but was no longer using. So, Mr. Dow created another way to emulate the unit block appearance, but it's a totally different construction. It is a really beautiful building that they've recently restored. It's just spectacular. So, tell me about Dow's blocks versus Wright's blocks and how they advanced construction as they did.

1:05:05I think Mr. Dow was always trying to look at ways to do things in a better way, a more efficient way, a more beautiful way in all areas of life. It was just kind of innate in him and his children, to be honest with you. His son, Mike, is like that. Mike is always looking for a better way to do something. Mr. Dow's initial block, which he designed with Robert Goodall, who was an employee of Frank Lloyd Wright's and left Taliesin about the same time Mr. and Mrs. Dow did.

1:05:36Mr. Dow had said, I'm setting up shop in Midland. You should come back. And he did and spent much of his career here at the firm. They created a block system that is made out of cinder because there was all this cinder piling up from the coal burning furnaces of the Dow industry. A unique feature about it is its rhomboid shape. And so, it has two 45-degree angles on each end. And then the face of the block is a 10-inch by 10-inch square with a one-inch bevel around. So, it becomes one foot

1:06:06by one foot. And then there are 16 components to the block that go down in scale and proportion from that. By making it the rhomboid shape, one course or layer goes in one direction. The next layer goes in the opposite direction. So, it's constantly reinforcing. It's overlapping the joint. And so, it's becoming stronger as it gets taller. I believe that with some of Wright's systems, they were stacked blocks. Mr. Dow wanted something that was very structurally sound. He always chose

1:06:37to paint it white because of the great ash color that it was. But it does. It gives such great texture beauty, much like you would say the Biltmore in Arizona. What that simple block does to create beauty in that building is essentially what Alden creates at the home and studio and the other structures he designed of the unit block. Can you buy these blocks anymore? You cannot. He actually sold the Wrights and the Mold to a developer in, we believe, Louisiana. Then they went overseas. So, we don't know what happened with the block if other things were constructed of

1:07:12the block. He used it for about 12 or 13 different structures. Then with an addition here on our building and then the Duke house, he came up with different ways to create the same appearance. So, there was continuity in the buildings. I'm just wondering because that would seem to be a great thing to bring back and make available to people now who are looking at beautiful new ways to construct their homes. I think it worked well. It didn't work well in the Michigan climate because it's cinder. It's somewhat porous. You can paint it, which protects it, but moisture gets into it. We use

1:07:45a wonderful product called AllGuard, which is an elastomeric, which creates a membrane around it to kind of seal it in so that it preserves the blocks quite well. But you can't use that product on walkable surfaces. How come? Because it creates a membrane and if you walk on the membrane, it disturbs it and tears the membrane. Okay. I gotcha. Tell people where Midland is in relation to cities they might know, like Detroit. Midland is about two hours north of Detroit, Michigan,

1:08:16about an hour and a half north and a little east of Lansing, Michigan, if we want to be fair to both Michigan and Michigan State. Yes. And it's the world headquarters for the Dow Company, originally known as the Dow Chemical Company. And it's a small city that has great history and innovation because of Dow and all the great things Dow did to help develop different products in our world still to this day. And because of Alden's work here in Midland and throughout the state, introducing modernism to so many cities around

1:08:51our own state and was registered in 14 states. And Alden also designed the entire city of Lake Jackson, Texas as part of the war effort, which he left his newly completed home and his young family here for about a year and a half until they decided like family needs to be together. So they moved down to Texas to finish the city for the war. You have to be going to Midland to get here. Okay. US 75 kind of zooms around us, but we're only about 10 minutes off of US 75. So it's easy to

1:09:24get here. You just have to know where it's at. Now going back to Dow Chemical, was there ever any overlap between the chemical company and architecture? Like for instance, did Dow Chemical ever invent something that was useful in building houses or maintaining houses? Styrofoam would be a great example. Okay. That's a great insulation. That's a Dow product. Really? They invented Styrofoam? They did. I did not know that. Styrofoam is a Dow trademark product without question. Alden was always incorporating test products. The original ceiling in the Alden Dow home

1:09:58was a phosphorescent plastic called Ethosyl. Okay. And he thought it was great that this plastic could absorb heat all day and light and you turn the lights off at night and it would glow in the dark. He thought you might be able to save electricity or resin from Dow on the side of tables, or he was constantly testing products. One of his last structures is called the Dow Test House, which uses about 17 products from the Dow Chemical Company. You know, Sarah Bond, Sarah Loy, there were lots of

1:10:30things that started out for the building trades that Dow developed. Some that were great and successful, some that weren't great and successful, but that was Alden Dow always trying, like, is there a better way to do this? Can we use mortar that's stronger that will last longer? Yeah. And he did a whole series of houses called the sandwich panel houses, which are SIPs panels, where it's Styrofoam adhesive and then board on each side. And that becomes your whole wall. That's your insulated wall that fits

1:11:00into a track and you can kind of spline together your walls, the ceilings and the roof were made of it as well. And, you know, plywood, Styrofoam and adhesive. And again, just always trying to create new solutions. I was trying to remember, what is Dow's biggest consumer product that they make that we might have in our homes? Dow sold off their Dow brands, which would have included saran wrap, Ziploc bags. Okay. Dow hasn't always been a consumer-based company. They were more, and I've heard this over

1:11:33and over again, that Dow Chemical was the chemical company's chemical company. They created all these base elements to other companies to then create other products. Okay. I just always think of them as a consumer company for some reason, but I guess that's just, you know, good marketing. Undoubtedly, yeah. Their products are in so many things. They're in our cell phones covering wires. It's, you know, lines that carry clean drinking water. It's amazing, you know, the dash, the material is the dashboard in our cars. It's amazing where those materials, those base chemicals went and with

1:12:10other ingenuity involved to create products that assist us in all areas of life. The one I remember the most, and I'm sorry, I'm obsessing over this, was the Dow bathroom cleaner with the scrubbing bubbles. Great marketing, right? Great marketing. Oh my gosh. I always wanted to have a sports team called the scrubbing bubbles. You can. The book is Mid-Century Modern Midland. Thanks so much for talking with me, Craig. It's a pleasure. Please come and see Midland, Michigan with more mid-century

Lucy Woodward on her new album

1:12:39than you can imagine. That was George's conversation with Craig McDonald. Returning podcast guest Lucy Woodward grew up between the Netherlands, where her father lived, and her hometown of New York, where she lived with her mother, growing up on a steady diet of Chopin and Michael Jackson. Since 16, Lucy's been singing mostly jazz and swing, touring with Pink Martini and Rod Stewart, and gaining a huge following on two continents. She sung with Celine Dion, Carole King, Joe Cocker,

1:13:13Barbara Streisand, the Doobie Brothers, and Michael Bolton. Her new album is I Need to Roam. Welcome back, Lucy. Thank you. Thank you for having me back. Lucy, before we talk about your new album, tell me about one of your unique life experiences, which is getting slimed on Nickelodeon. Oh. Oh my goodness. You're going to make me talk about this. I have not been asked this question in 20 years. Was this traumatic? It was traumatic, and you're like, I'm doing this for the love of

1:13:44the work anyway. For the children. For the children, for the kids. So I put out a pop record in 2003. It was a big top 40 record on Atlantic Records, and it was on top 40 radio, and I was touring Japan. I was on Jay Leno. But the demographic was super young, and it was like you have elementary school to junior high school to high school kids. So, you know, you're acting younger. You come out and be like, hey, what's up, everybody? And, you know, really just my voice is like an octave higher, and I'm

1:14:18dressed down like I'm just wearing jeans and sneakers. And anyway, I did Nickelodeon three times. One time in New York at like a TV show where you have to do all these like skits and games with all the kids. And then I think two separate times in Florida. I can't remember if I got slimed or my guitar player got slimed, but there was slime on me at one point. Traumatic, I don't know, but there, it was slime. It was real. That was a long time ago, and I'm so happy that part of my life is over.

1:14:49And you probably washed it out of your hair by now. Yeah. Did it come like, like down on you from a nozzle? Did it come at you like across? It usually comes straight from above, right? Yeah, it's like, because I remember kind of growing up with it also, like watching it, and I was always like, eh. But it does come above you. But that's why I feel like it wasn't me. It may have been like my guitar player who was like, I'll get slimed, you know. And so I think it does come, and we watched it. It's all, but I've seen it so many times growing up on TV that I was like,

1:15:19wait, did this happen to me? Is that still a thing with Nickelodeon? I mean, it was all the thing, like 20 years ago. I don't know if they do that anymore. No, I mean, some of these TV shows are just so much competition with everything else going on. So maybe it ran its course. Or maybe they do it digitally now. Yes, digital slime. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, digital slime. Exactly. I mean, just video games. But it's strange to think about because that was real in-person. You know, you have guests on, and there was, you know,

1:15:52musicians and playing live. There was no lip syncing. Wow. There were kids in the audience all doing this, and it was real fun and games for the kids. Because that's what, you know, so I feel like that's not a thing anymore, you know? Well, let's hear one of the songs from your new album. This is called Always. Names we carve in chestnut trees

1:16:25Dull and fade like memories We will be always Even when we're gone

1:16:56We will be always The house we build The house we build will stand for years Till mother nature makes her disappear But we will be always Even when we're gone We will be always

1:17:29History History History Will be Forgotten You and me Got eternity In common In a place No, nobody Nobody hurt

1:18:00Sure as stars surround The earth We are always When time and miles Divide us all Love is not Invisible No more We are always We are always In a place Even when we're gone

1:18:30Even when we're gone Even when we're gone We will be always We will be always History will be forgotten You and me got eternity in common And if I leave you first

1:19:08Sure as stars surround the earth We are always Even when I'm gone We won't be always Even when you're gone We will be always Even when we're gone

1:19:39I feel like this should be like out in the west somewhere, Lucy. This has kind of a western thing to it. There are horses and wagons and... Sunsets. It's a very intimate song. I like it. It's simple in its instrumentation. Yeah, it's just guitar and a little kick drum. And me, this was one of these things we were discussing. A song to put out first, it's always the big thing.

1:20:11What's the first single? How do you roll out the album? And I'd never... My co-writer, Todd Wright, who was actually my guitar player 20 years ago when we were on Nickelodeon, by the way. We were still really good friends. I should ask him if he was the one who got slimed. Todd and I were talking about it, you know, what single to go for first. And he was like, I think you should do Always because you've never released something, not just stylistically like this, but so intimate. And it's going to kind of catch everyone a bit off guard because I'm used to like swingy and brassy and ba-da-da, you know.

1:20:44Yeah. And so he's like, just do it. Like, it'll just shake you up. It'll shake up all of your followers. And it's a good shift, you know, and then hit him hard with the next one. So it was a decision. And when he said that, I was like, this makes sense. It just felt right. So I've never sung so intimately. Lucy, you've been involved with several film soundtracks. The Blind Side, Ice Princess, Music and Lyrics, which I really liked. What a Girl Wants, First Daughter, Accepted, New Year's Eve. But the question I want to ask you is, what was it like touring with Sir Rod Stewart, which you did for many years?

1:21:21My question is, did women throw their lingerie at him like they do at Tom Jones? At one point, they did do that with Rod. I'm sure, yes. I was there for four and a half years. So maybe a couple of bras at the most. But really, you know, he's a big Celtic football supporter. So you'll see all the super fans wearing green and white jerseys. Okay. So they show up everywhere. Everyone's like a green and white stripe. So you'll see either tartan scarves because he's Scottish and scarves being thrown at the stage or those jerseys, the green and white jerseys.

1:21:57But definitely less lingerie. I went to a Tom Jones show in the early 2000s. And there was so much lingerie on the stage that one of those guys had to come out with the big theater broom and just sweep it all off the stage. Yeah. It was a safety hazard. It comes part of the act. Yeah. Right. Exactly.

1:22:21Well, this next song, also from your new album, is called Yes. Tell me about this song. My guitar player, Jelle, who played guitar, and I'd written that last song with him always. Jelle is a Dutch name. It's J-E-L-L-E. And it's like the equivalent of Jeff in America. So Jelle, he's been playing with me for eight years or so. And we've toured a lot of Europe. And from just being with me and hanging out with me and where he's like my little brother, he started just writing song ideas for me.

1:22:51And sending them to me saying, hey, Luce, what do you think of this? What do you think of this? Because he'd studied and listened to my voice for so long. And so he'd been working with this Moroccan artist and going to Morocco on tour or workshops and just all sorts of things. So he sent me this idea with this guitar figure at the beginning of this song, which is kind of funky and a little bit strange and a little jazzy, but super cool. And it had this melody that went over it that was completely opposite going like in the other. It's just very different rhythmically, like you wouldn't think it would go together.

1:23:24But he sang it and played it at the same time. And he's like, what do you think about this? And I just loved it. And again, it was so different for me, but it felt so right. I was like, I'm going to take this on as a challenge. Let's write these lyrics. Let's go. So it was natural.

Touring plans and musical projects

1:23:38Here's Lucy with Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

1:24:14Some days I'm a clown. Born under a haunted moon. I can't help myself. And that ain't no excuse. I thought you should know who you're saying yes to.

1:24:31Yeah. I thought you should know who you're lying next to

1:24:38Cause they already know I'll never forget you I could give you all my love And the mysteries I made of And all that sentimental stuff And some things that you should be afraid of I thought you should know before I let you go Who you're saying yes to

1:25:11Kiss me like it is your fate Take your time but don't be too late Curiosity won't kill me I am willing but just in case I thought you should know who you're saying yes to Yeah I thought you should know who you're lying next to Cause they already know I'll never forget you

1:25:46I could give you all my love And the mysteries I made of All that sentimental stuff And some things that you should be afraid of No I don't bite I bleed just like you do Come on closer Show me signs of That we could get used to I could give you all my love

1:26:19And the miseries I made of All that new romantic stuff So what you gather I should be afraid of I thought you should know Before I let you go Who you're saying yes to No I don't bite I bleed just don't bite No I don't bite

1:26:51No I don't bite I bleed just don't bite No I don't bite No I don't bite I bleed just don't bite No I don't bite No I don't bite No I don't bite No I don't bite No I don't bite No I don't bite No I don't bite What time signature is that? That's quite an interesting rhythm Oh my god, there's so much going on So it's always like 1, 2, 3, 4, however you want to count it But then there's like this other subdivision It's like dun-dun-dun-dun

1:27:22Like a swing, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 And I'm singing So it has this waltz over this 4-4 thing Yeah, that's it I'm still always hearing new things, it's really cool Yeah, great song Thanks Now, where will you be appearing this fall In September and October? September, I have a jazz orchestra Also in the Netherlands And we are going to be playing in Cologne In Germany Doing some of these songs with A 15-person band, lots of brass We do the song always on guitar and vocal

1:27:54And then it's really beautiful Where all the guys, the brass players They come up to the front There's a big table And they each have a water glass Like a wine glass There's water filled up to different levels Oh yeah, oh, they can tune it Yeah, so they tune it So they play kind of chords with And so there's always like a drone Of like a gorgeous ringy Like water organ, they kind of call it And so that So we find different ways of playing these songs With 15 more people on stage So that'll be really fun

1:28:25We're going into rehearsals and things for that So that'll be September I have a string trio project Also in Europe Doing the music of Kurt Weill You're going to be busy in the fall Yeah And then I'm going to probably plan A West Coast America tour in December So I'm sort of working on that now Oh, great Okay So Lucy, there's a club here in Durham It's called Sharp Nine Yes The proprietor's name is Dave It's a co-op You should reach out to him And see if you're on your way Somewhere between Washington and Atlanta

1:28:56You come through and we can see you live That would be so great I'll email you for some information Amazing Because I'll plan an East Coast tour next Thank you guys Thanks for listening U.S. Modernist Radio is underwritten By the Brent R. Harris Charitable Trust Restorer of Richard Neutra's Kaufman Desert House In Palm Springs And six other houses in California By the Ife Jones Conservancy Preserving the legacy of modernist architecture In Northwest Arkansas IfeJonesConservancy.org

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