#468/Children of Genius: Christen Johansen + Ben Colburn + Musical Guest Veronica Swift

Welcome to U.S. Modernist Radio

0:00Hi, I'm Lorenda Spear, a principal at Architectonica in Miami, and you're listening to U.S. Modernist Radio. Mama don't allow no architecture around here. Mama don't allow no architecture around here. Oh, I don't care what mama don't allow, gonna draw my modern anyhow. Mama don't allow no architecture around here. Welcome to U.S. Modernist Radio, where we talk and laugh with people who enjoy, own, create, dream about, preserve, love, and hate modernist architecture, the most exciting and controversial buildings in the world.

0:41I'm Tom Guild, and today it's our Children of Genius edition, part of a long-running series where we interview the kids of famous architects. First up, architect Christian Johansson. He's the son of Harvard Five member John Johansson in Connecticut's epicenter of modernism, New Canaan. Next, Ben Colburn, a Massachusetts real estate attorney whose father, I.W. Colburn, helped define Chicago modernism and even bought an island in Scotland.

1:11Finally, today's musical guest is Veronica Swift. And now your host, no stranger to Scotland, Mr. Modernism, George Smart. Hey, thanks, Tom. Yes, Scotland, one of my favorite countries. I've been there six times. I would go again. It's fabulous. Everybody should visit.

The $47 million demolition estimate

1:31When cities consider renovating an important modernist building, a number appears in city council chambers with the reliability of sunrise. And that number is about $47 million. This is the municipal arithmetic of wanting something else. It is always roughly $47 million. It is never $12 million, because $12 million is a number a city might actually pay. It is never $200 million, because $200 million invites the question of who did the math. $47 million is the Goldilocks of municipal demolition numbers, large enough to be unthinkable, small enough to be plausible,

2:10vague enough to have been produced by literally any process at all, including voodoo, cocaine, astrology, and wild guesses. The building in question is usually built from 1950 to 1970 and has stood for 55 to 75 years. It could stand for 75 more. But an engineering firm, hired by the city, paid by the city, and coached by developers, has determined that it is, and I quote, The signature move of the doom-building estimate is its remarkable responsiveness to public enthusiasm.

2:49Year one, when no one is paying attention, repairs are estimated at $8 million. Year three, when a preservation society forms, $23 million. Year five, when someone starts a petition, it reaches the $47 million. And a council member says the words, We simply cannot, in good conscience, ask taxpayers to pay for this. Nothing about the building has changed. The roof did not develop opinions. What changed is that some group, often a sports team, has hired architects to design a master plan replacement that does not exist

3:23and therefore cannot disappoint anyone for $44 million, always slightly less. This is not a coincidence. This is the entire point. The proposed building is a fantasy, and fantasies are famously cost-effective. That fantasy will eventually cost $150 million and open two years late.

Top city council justifications

3:42So here are the top city council justifications. Number one, deferred maintenance. A phrase meaning, we didn't bother to fix it. Delivered in the passive voice of a natural disaster. The building did not defer its own maintenance. Someone deferred it, on purpose, in a budget, with a boat. Deferred maintenance is arson with a longer fuse and better paperwork. Number two, it doesn't meet current code. Nothing built before last week meets current code.

4:13The Pantheon does not meet current code. The Parthenon does not meet current code. This is a statement about the code, not the building. Number three, ADA compliance. Watch closely, because this one is dazzling. A council that has spent 11 years not installing a front entrance ramp will discover, at the demolition hearing, a fervent and previously undetectable passion for accessibility. The building must come down, because disabled people deserve better.

4:44However, the disability community is rarely consulted, and when it is, it tends to say something inconvenient like, just get us a ramp, just get us a ramp. Number four, asbestos. Present in every structure of that era, including the ones the city just spent $4 million renovating for the police department, where the asbestos was described as manageable and encapsulated in place. Number five, it's not what the community wants. This is established via survey with 61 respondents, 40 of whom were on the steering committee and had season tickets to the sports team.

5:22Number six, mold. Ace in the hole. Nobody can see mold. Nobody can disprove mold. Mold is the ghost story of municipal governance, and every abandoned building is haunted by exactly as much mold as the budget requires to destroy it. The thing nobody says out loud is that the decision to demolish came first. The number to fix the building is retrofitted onto it, like T-111 siding from the late 70s. No council member sat down, reviewed a structural report, and arrived at an objective conclusion.

5:58They arrived with the conclusion. They commissioned a document that agrees with that conclusion because the document costs $180,000, and those consultants know exactly who signs the check. You can identify when the decision was actually made by looking for the phrase, exploring all options, which is uttered only after all options have stopped being explored. All options are on the table means one option is on the table, and the table has been moved to a smaller room in the basement with a broken microphone and a meeting time of 5.15 on a Wednesday.

6:33If a city genuinely believed that a building was a $47 million death trap, it would evacuate. But no, staff continue to work there. The public continues to visit. Weddings are held in the lobby. The building they claim is one hard reign away from collapse hosts the Parks Department holiday party. Everyone has a nice time. Nobody dies. And the following Tuesday, the council votes to tear it down because it is, quote, at the end of its useful life.

7:03Not failing. Not unsafe. The building is fine. It has simply stopped being useful to the people who want a different building.

Underwriters and supporters

7:11U.S. Modernist Radio is underwritten by the Brent R. Harris Charitable Trust, restorer of Richard Neutra's Kauffman Desert House in Palm Springs, and six other houses in California. By the E. Faye Jones Conservancy, preserving the legacy of modernist architecture in northwest Arkansas. EFAYJonesConservancy.org. And by Diane Bald and the Budman Family, restoring significant architecture in Toronto, Los Angeles, Malibu, and Palm Springs.

Interview with Christian Johansson

7:41Christian Johansson grew up in the modernist mecca of New Canaan, Connecticut, as the son of famed Harvard Five architect John Johansson. Following in his footsteps in architecture, Christian trained at RISD, spent years at Ennead Architects, and later ran his own firm. In 1997, he renovated and expanded a school his father designed,

8:13L. Francis Smith Elementary School, extending the classroom wings while keeping the original open-ended concept intact. Recorded at the Onara Foundation in New Canaan, Connecticut, here's George's conversation with Christian Johansson. Christian, before we talk about your dad, let's talk about another fellow that you've worked with, Jim Polshek. Oh, right. Yes. What was he like? He was wonderful to work with. And previous to that, I'd had my own firm in New York for 19 years.

8:45My partners and I parted ways, went different ways with different interests, and I was looking around for larger projects, for sure. And I had an interview at Polshek's office. It went very well. And I didn't go any further than that. And worked there with Jim and Joe Fleischer for 17 years. And what kind of projects did you work on while you were there? Oh, fantastic projects. I started off doing a small project with Jim in addition to a synagogue out in the east end of Long Island in East Hampton.

9:15Then we transitioned, worked with a team on the Clinton Presidential Center, the 20-acre park and presidential. In Arkansas. In Arkansas. So that was a two-year project. Great team. From there, did some restoration work. Did the Roosevelt House, the restoration and repurposing of the Sarah Dillon Roosevelt House for Hunter College. Worked directly with Jim on that. It was great. It was a very nice and easy relationship. He made the big moves, the big decisions, but always open to suggestions and ideas.

9:50And that's what I appreciated most. There was always a give and take with Jim. And was that before or after it was called Ennead? That was before. Before. Yeah, and when Jim retired and some new partners were brought up, there was a decision made to sort of change it since Jim was not there and had his name monogram for years, since the beginning. And that there were really other design partners who were chiefly involved in major projects. And so it was a recognition, really, that the partners coming up, like Richard Olcott, I would say in particular, I did a number of projects.

10:24And he was chief designer on the Clinton project. Working with Richard was a great experience. And I got to work with most of the partners there. Now, what is an Ennead exactly? Is it an acronym? Is it a Greek word? It's a Greek word. It was a description of a group of deities, really. And they all had separate characteristic traits. And I don't know how closely that was matched to any given partner, but there were eight of them. And at that time, there were eight. Oh, so it's a collective noun?

10:55It's a collective noun, exactly. An Ennead of goddesses? The Ennead, which was this group. Okay. A specific group of Greek deities, which all had different personalities and inclinations and things like that. So one of the games was always to figure out who was which one, you know, of the partners. Yeah. It didn't last very long. We were too busy. But anyway, it took hold. And that was the name that is now the same firm, but without Jim. And I think Joe Fleischer retired also. Joe was Jim's initial partner and a wonderful fellow.

11:30Very much behind the scenes. But, oh, what a practitioner he was. He was just an excellent person and an excellent mentor.

Growing up with the Harvard Five

11:36Well, let's switch from Jim Polchek to the beach. Yeah. When you were growing up, your father would do things for you and your sister to encourage your creativity at the beach with different objects. Tell me about that. Well, it was very fluid and it was sort of non-directional in the sense that he would just open us up to these possibilities of what he liked to do more than anything. And I remember specifically driving through Providence, Rhode Island, on our way to the Cape, the old route before they had 95 and 195.

12:13We'd go up through Route 6 and wind our way through all the little towns. But through Providence in particular, there was on South Main Street, there were these wonderful like junk shops and antique shops. And we'd always stop there and buy something, but often objects and tools and spoons and things like that to use to sculpt the sand and make these sand sculptures in Truro in the summer. So rather than just say we're going to do this, he would sort of get his bucket and his plaster and his tools and we would just be right there. And then we'd make our own and he'd help us out to start with.

12:45But it became quite a very regular thing, very much a part of our summertime at the beach. And yeah, it was wonderful. My sister and I loved doing that. Truro and Wellfleet are well known for the Marcel Breuer houses that are out there. Did you guys ever visit those? Yes. Often, often we would visit, well, I say Mr. and Mrs. Breuer, but Loiko and Connie and their daughter, Cheska, who's a little younger than me, and Tomas, who was a little older than me.

13:19But they were always there living in the ponds. And so we would always visit them every summer. Very informal. Also here in New Canaan as well. But in Wellfleet, it's more relaxed in the summer. What I love about the design of these cottages is they were without air conditioning, which we would not think of today, but it worked. It really allowed the breezes to pass through the house. Yeah. Yeah, they had a lovely large screened porch right off the living room in their Wellfleet house. And I remember that, being out there and just, yeah, breezes coming through and never feeling hot.

13:53Of course, they were in the pines, so it was always shaded, sort of speckled light coming through that pine woods on the ponds. And Peter McMahon of the Cape Cod Modern House Trust has restored the Breuer house now, finally, after all these years, and maintains many others out there that are part of the National Seashore. Yeah, he's been doing a wonderful job. I know that there was an effort, I guess it started, I'm guessing, five years ago, to buy the Breuer house. And I know there were negotiations with Tomas and the family and things, but I'm so glad that it happened.

14:28They were able to do that and add that to their lovely collection of mid-century moderns there. Now, you're an architect now. You were obviously inspired by your dad in some way. But as you were growing up, at what point did you realize that your dad was something special, that he really stood out and he was part of this collective that became known as the Harvard Five? Didn't know them as the Harvard Five, but it's a good question because my sister and I grew up thinking that this was all very normal.

15:01We were just a normal family and normal kids and, you know, just had, you know, normal friends. And it wasn't until we sort of realized that our modern house was unusual. My dear friend, Brooke Hodgson, who grew up in a Philip Johnson house on Ponus Ridge, was my first person I knew in this, in life. So going to their house was wonderful, normal. Yeah. To be in a Philip Johnson house or even to go. To you, it was just a house, right? It wasn't special. It was just a house. It wasn't special.

15:32So to answer your question, really, it wasn't until really later, until I got maybe into high school and even into college that I realized the associations that my father had and how important and how meaningful they were and how major they were. And he introduced us to, for instance, on my way back to school, I went to school up in Danbury. So my father would drive me back up and often we'd stop off and see a friend on the way. And we stopped off at a friend's house and had a little bite to eat and we were sitting around

16:03and he introduced me to this fellow who builds houses out in the desert. He says he forms up the sand, he carves out the structure that he wants, and he pours it in concrete and then digs out the sand. Well, it was Paolo Solari. I was sitting there. Wow. And so, but the introduction was, here's a guy who works very creatively, you know, and he's an architect. Just this guy you happened to meet on the way back to school. Right, he was having dinner. He was over there as well. And then on occasion, on the way back from the Cape, we stopped off at Sandy Colder's studio

16:35in Connecticut and spent the afternoon there. And I was probably, oh, 10, 11 or 12 years old and just marveled at his studio. You know, big tools, tin scraps, things under construction, things finished, things started. But what an opportunity and what a stroke of luck I had, you know, to be introduced to people very informally without any pretense of like, now you're going to meet a major person. Right. I could see they were major people.

17:06And then, as I say, later on in college and beyond, I realized, wow, that was an amazing opportunity. Were the architects of the Harvard Five, were they like the Beatles? Did they hang together a lot or were they mostly separate in their lives? Well, I left New Canaan early when my parents split up. I was five. It was 1955. And so, yes, we did see the noises a lot. We visited the Breyers a lot. We were over at Philip Johnson's house. That's where I learned to swim in his pool.

17:37We were over there, you know, summers, you know, swimming and doing things like that. So there was a very relaxed kind of association and relationship we had with these people. Landis Goris, I would say not. I didn't really know him at all, but certainly Eli Noyes and the Noyes family, Philip Johnson. And he was known to us as Mr. Johnny. Ah, okay. And the Breyers were very much family, friends, as well as professional friends. My father, obviously.

18:08So it was a very, very comfortable relationship visiting these houses and these families. But as I say, I moved away from New Canaan early, my sister and I and my mother, and lost touch with that a little bit. My mother stayed in touch with Connie Breyer all through her life, and we also stayed in touch with Molly and Elliot Noyes and saw them skiing up in Vermont. They had a house up there, one of his lovely houses, and we'd go up there and hang out and ski with them.

18:38Now, New Canaan is notorious in the 50s for just not getting modernist architecture. There are these great letters to the editor, which had been at the New Canaan History Museum, talking about how these weird houses are invading town. And yet, this was really the epicenter of the talent creating this movement that would spread across the eastern United States. So why were people so afraid, scared, angry about these houses? Well, I didn't know at the time, really.

19:12I saw these after the fact, these articles and things I've read since. So we were unaware of the animosity or any animosity at all. My father had friendships and business relationships with people in town. The Silverbergs, you know, I was his landlord at 70 Elm. Generally, we found people to be very friendly and very, very open. But, you know, certainly this was a conservative town, which I didn't realize how conservative necessarily politically it was until later on. And, you know, they like colonial here.

19:43They like traditional architecture. And so this was sort of an affront. And I think only because there was so much room at that time in the 50s, it wasn't as developed as it is now. There was room for these odd houses, if you will. These strange houses on five, six, 10-acre, 15-acre lots. So they could be hidden to a certain extent. They were not in your face. They were not on Main Street. Absolutely not. They were off on, you know, they were off on Bonus Ridge and West Road and other places.

20:16And at some point, though, there was enough critical mass where New Canaan became known for this architecture because Frank Lloyd Wright put a house here. Yes, he did. Edward Durrell Stone, people in addition to the Harvard Five that was based here. I mean, it just really took off. And another generation came on 10 years, 15 years later as well. Yes, it did. And I think there was an interest that was probably had people scratching their heads here because there were so many students and people with architectural interests coming to New

20:51Canaan and then the house tour that was developed, which my mother was a part of, and others to tour the houses, the modern houses, which grew in number every year through the 50s and early 60s. Now, your dad lived until 96. Yeah. Which apparently is not unusual for architects. They tend to go a long time. Well, I think it has to do with enjoying your life and what you do, part of that, and keeping at it, which my father certainly did, not building necessarily, but certainly his ideas, his interest

21:26and his drive to do more and to delve deeper into architecture and building and technology kept him going all his life, really, one of his major interests.

The U.S. Embassy in Dublin

21:38We're talking here in New Canaan this week about the U.S. Embassy in Dublin, Ireland, which your dad designed. Did he design other embassies as well? No. I think that was it. That was the one. Yes. Okay. And this one has miraculously survived. It has. And it's wonderful that it has. As I was reading in Cormac's book, the history of some that didn't survive or the use became totally unrelated to the diplomatic or the interests, per se, of the United States.

22:12They just became repositories for other types of activities and goings on. They were not related to an image, per se, of the United States in a period of time, which I think the Dublin Embassy certainly is, and it's been taken that way certainly by Dubliners and Irish people who see it as a real, you know, hands across the water sort of give and take and gesture of respect and a fine example of design that was done out of the

22:48strength of that relationship and what Ireland and the U.S. held each other, you know, in esteem. In esteem, exactly. The architecture program from the State Department was also related to the World's Fair, World's Expo movement, where modern architecture was used as a diplomatic tool to extend the influence of the United States politically, technologically. There was a lot of optimism about what was going to be in the future post-war.

23:20And what I find interesting about these buildings compared to today's political environment is if you look at the buildings of the 60s, the State Department commissioned with architects like your dad, they're secure, I'm sure. They had security there. But they're not the fortresses that we see built today. Right. So do you think that there was more trust back then, or were they just naive, or what was going on? I think that the political climate and the animosity between nations and between ideologies really

23:57is what's driving a lot of this now. Not as apparent and not as much of a concern, certainly following 9-11 and precedents to that. It just changed the focus 180 degrees. While I was at NEAD with Jim Polshek, the firm there had the opportunity to design two embassies. And I saw a little bit of the brief, but the security aspect of it was huge.

24:27Yeah. Whereas I'm sure that's definitely not the case in the 60s, even though there was a Cold War going on, even though there were spies everywhere, right? And there were plenty of cloak and dagger things going on. Was it done in a more civil way? Yes. Probably so. Yes. Because when you visit the foreign embassies who have locations in New York and Washington, I'm sure they have security too, but they're very elegant. You can't really see it. Yeah. I got the chance to visit the Embassy of Finland in Washington, D.C., which is just one of the

25:02most gorgeous buildings I had ever seen. And you can barely tell what's going on with the usual cameras and guards and bollards and all of that. It's very subtle. That's good. Well done. Yeah. How do you see your dad's legacy now? He's been gone a number of years. How does his impact carry into the future? Well, I've been maintaining his website during the last part of his life and to this day, and it's ongoing. And so the interest is there.

25:32I get calls and emails and things, usually two or three a month with either students doing research or people writing articles or people writing books and wanting to get permission for photographs or a certain material or fact-checking things. And I think predominantly it is his mid-century work. It's his Mummer's Theater, it's Clark Library, and it's sometimes the history, but it's really predominantly the work of his in the 50s and 60s, and less so on his later work, which

26:08was the nanotechnology and the more experimental work that he was working on at Pratt. And Pratt with his advanced design studio, which he taught until, oh, I think he was probably 86, 87. Oh, wow. Yeah. Nice. And there was a group there at Pratt. There was a vibrant group of modern forward-thinking, technologically oriented, humanistically oriented designers and architects, and that was the basis of that studio.

26:39What's the website for people to go to? It is johnjohansonarchitect.com, and I encourage anybody to go and take a look, and then if you have questions, I can easily be contacted and try to steer you on to other areas. Other answers. Other answers. It is archived, mostly at the Avery Library at Columbia and also at University of Pennsylvania. There's a lot of material there that I've directed people towards, and that's quite accessible. Well, Christian, thank you so much for talking with me.

27:09This has been a real pleasure. Well, great. I've enjoyed this very much, and thank you for the opportunity.

27:16That was George's conversation with Kristen Johanson.

Interview with Ben Colburn

27:19Ben Colburn is a Massachusetts real estate attorney and the son of Ike Colburn, the noted Chicago modernist architect. Ike Colburn created beautiful projects across the Midwest and even bought an island off the coast of Scotland. You can see those projects at usmodernist.org slash colburn, C-O-L-B-U-R-N. George began his conversation with Ben Colburn by asking about that Scottish isle. Hi, Ben. Thanks for coming on the show. My pleasure.

27:50Before we start talking about your dad and architecture, one really interesting thing I found out is that your family bought an island in Scotland. What prompted that? Well, there's quite a story behind that, as you might imagine. My father, when we were in Lake Forest outside of Chicago, had a group of friends who somehow, and I'm not sure how my father was part of it, other than it was probably business related, wanted to buy an island in Scotland.

28:24And they put a little partnership together, and an island came up for sale from some poor lord that was down on his ways. And I believe, but I'm not 100% positive, that it was North Uist. The group put a bid together and was successful. However, since the island was large and populated, the locals had a say in the final approval. They heard that a Chicago syndicate was buying the island, and images of Al Capone raised their

29:01heads, and that was the end of the effort. So, literally, I think you have to fast forward maybe 20 years, and my mother is looking at a copy of Country Life, which is a British publication, and is looking in the real estate ads and sees another island for sale and says, Ike, you're not going to believe this. You're going to have another chance. This was a much smaller island, pretty much unpopulated, although it was subject to a few

29:32tenancies, and they were the winner at an auction in Monaco. There was only one other bidder, and that second bidder ended up being the farmer on the island because my parents had no interest in running a farm on the island, and that's pretty much all you could do there. And this was a priory previously, the buildings that were there? You know, my parents had some fundamental knowledge about the island and actually had visited it

30:03once, but were somewhat unaware of how sort of significant it was. It has, the structures are a typical island house and a, I believe, a 14th century priory ruin, and its significant comes from the fact that St. Columba, who went on to settle in Iona, allegedly stopped at Orensay, which is the name of the island, first, but then decided to move on

30:33because it was too close to Northern Ireland from where he had come from, and his mission was to settle the heathens in Scotland, so he needed to get a little closer to them. So, anyway, one of his stone carvers came back to the island and set up shop there, and it became quite significant as a, I believe, a working carving school, and the priory was built, and there are still gravestones, full-size gravestones with, in full relief, carvings of knights

31:09and their wives just sort of lying around. Oh, wow. Yeah, it's amazing. And there's a Viking fort on the island, Neolithical Bounds. It's really a special place. I don't want to say they stumbled on it, but they pretty much stumbled on it. And your family still has it, right, in coordination with the National Trust? That's correct. My mother is there as we speak. The original farmer who was retiring from Devon has given way to the Royal Society for Protection of Birds,

31:42which runs the farm and the, let's call it the larger island grounds, in an attempt to reintroduce the corn crake to the British Isles. It's one of several sites that they picked for this project. Is a corn crake a bird or a plant? I don't know that one. Yeah, it is a bird that actually migrates to South Africa in the winter, but its significance, and I learned all this, is that its very awkward, sort of ugly call was once ubiquitous in all of the UK,

32:18and when you heard it in the spring, you knew that spring was really here because the corn crake had arrived, and they were everywhere in the countryside. And sadly, apparently, they got wiped out by mechanized farming because even though they could fly, their way of escaping with their young was to run into the tall grass, and eventually, as mechanized farming, you know, got more efficient at mowing, they obliterated all these families of corn crakes. And so, the bird didn't become extinct, but no longer was prevalent.

32:53So, on our island, on Isla, which is next door, a much bigger island, and I believe one other spot in the Interhebrides, the RSVB, decided to reintroduce these birds and farm in a way that was conducive to their survival. Well, thank you so much for being a steward of this property because from what I see online, it was really beautiful. Well, and it's not I who is the steward, it's my mother. She has done an incredible job and is passionate about it.

33:24Well, let's talk about your dad and his practice.

I.W. Colburn architecture and arches

33:27How did he get into modernist architecture? That's a good question, which I don't have the definitive answer because it happened long before I was even a twinkle in his eyes. But my understanding is when he was at Yale, and I think more so than his time at Carnegie Mellon, he became inspired by that sort of... Yeah, he studied with Lou Kahn at one point. And Paul Schweiker. Right.

33:57And, of course, Paul Schweiker recognized some talent in him and offered him a job, which is how he got to Chicago, which is where my mother was from and how they eventually met. But that was clearly a big moment for him to get out of the Northeast and get to Chicago, which was, I believe, a hotbed of architecture of all types. Oh, yes. And especially at that time. Now, one of your dad's signature moves was these big sweeping arches that show up in houses and commercial buildings.

34:29Had you noticed that? It's hard not to. And I think it's one of the things that when I run into other architects and they put two and two together and hear who I am, they say, well, because of those things, and especially arches, you always knew you were looking at an I.W. Coburn house. Yeah. And they said that as a real compliment because he obviously had a signature style and it stood out. But I think that he recognized that you can make a really attractive arch with bricks

35:01and that it was obviously classic and a large part of Palladian architecture, which I know he always admired. For a while, he was a campus architect, consulting architect with the University of Chicago and had influence on the campus. That's correct. And those were probably some of the bigger buildings or commissions that he got for a larger buildings were the science buildings that surround a quad there. And actually, one of my favorite buildings, but mostly because it's been captured in a fantastic picture,

35:38was the Schenkman Orthogenic School, which he created a connection between two existing buildings. And they're the sort of random arched windows. But why I love it is because somebody took a picture of it with the shadows cast by the windows and the lintels underneath. And it's just, it's fantastic to me. It's like an extra dimension. I was talking with some architects about your dad.

36:08And one of the observations I made was that your dad really added on to modernism in a way that most post-modernist architects were unable to. He really took the kind of clean lines of Mies van der Rohe and kind of took it to the next level without having it look weird. Well, I question your weird. You know, I obviously grew up in one of his houses, which a lot of people thought was weird. And I used to get gently teased that I lived in the Swiss cheese house.

36:42So, you know, it depends on what you mean by weird. The arches, though, were beautiful. And he seemed to be able, his sense of proportion, I think, was really unworldly. And he was able to integrate them in his designs in a way that just really stood out. And they were everywhere. I mean, he had a bunch of elements that I, you know, as a layman, can recognize. Obviously, the arch was one.

37:13Another was a circle and a square. And then he had these cylindrical columns that he used on several houses that were usually encasing a circular stair on the interior. And these sort of disparate elements always seemed to me to come together quite nicely. So that was his talent. Now, what house growing up do you remember first? Where was that one? Well, you know, a year, maybe two years after I was born, was the house at 700 Lake Road,

37:45which was the house I then spent the next 12 years in. So, obviously, living there and having my own room, I remember it intimately. But I had one of my other favorite houses was one that he built for my uncle in the near north side of Chicago. And I appreciate that even more now because I live in a townhouse on Beacon Hill. But it had a sort of inward-looking courtyard that allowed light to come into every room, natural light.

38:18And living in a townhouse with, you know, limited facades with windows, you really have to appreciate his ability to do that and come up with that design. And admittedly, it was at the end of a row of houses, so he had three walls to work with. But as I look back on the time I spent in that house, which has now been sold but still exists, it's not in the family anymore. I really think it was a cool design. I had a classmate that lived in, when I was at Lake Forest Country Day,

38:48that lived in a house that he designed, the Crane House. I would go to the Bath and Tennis. I think it was in Lake Bluff, which was next door, that he designed the tennis courts there, which I thought were really cool because I was just a little kid. And this is this massive arched expanse that didn't look like any indoor tennis court you've ever seen. If you want to see these houses as we're going along, you can go to usmodernist.org slash Colburn, which is C-O-L-B-U-R-N.

39:20I can see, Ben, that the house you grew up on on Lake Road, when it was built, there was huge criticism from the town. They just couldn't wrap their heads around it. That's true. Obviously, as a one-year-old, I had no knowledge of that. But my father actually never forgot things like that. So it was often discussed amongst the family members and the family. And I think the particularly galling part of it for him was that two of the more influential members of the planning committee

39:54or whichever, you know, local town committee it was that was held sway over it were related through my mother's family. Oh, family. And I think one was a supporter, but another one was adamantly opposed. And he never let that go. This house was featured in Home and Garden in 69 and progressive architecture. And it had this towers on it, unusual for a house that were destroyed, I think, in the 70s. So that led to the moniker of the Swiss cheese house.

40:26Okay. The towers were the series of arches and circles inside the squares. They were unlike anything within miles. And so the house really stood out. And I think a lot of the controversy was the fact that it was located on one of the signature parks in the town. So it was a highly prominent site. And it's not like it was hidden in the woods. It was right there.

40:56And that was, I think, a big part of why there was so much scrutiny. But it turned, of course, into a, you know, destination for people to come drive by. And my sister and I actually made a lot of money selling lemonade in front of it because the gawkers would slow down and say, Well done, Ben. Do you live here? Do you live here? And we'd say, yes, we do. Here, buy some lemonade. So it had a huge backyard as well, both formal and informal.

41:32And so it was quite a nice place to grow up. I had a bunch of friends on the block. And we would cut through everybody's backyards back and forth. It was really fun, as well as you had the open expanse of the park right in front of you. How come they took the towers down? That was just about eight years after they were built. The answer is it was a giant middle finger. Oh, to whom? To the town or to your dad? Yeah, to the town. My father did it. And he was, as I said, he really did not enjoy the process.

42:06And when we left, he's like, well, that was so difficult. I don't need anybody else to experience this. So he took him down. He took him down. And then for years, the rest of the house was there, which was basically hidden by exterior walls that hid beautiful gardens, formal gardens. They were all laid out in squares and circles and then glass rooms. And then the layout of the house was inside the walls. And then ultimately, the whole thing got torn down.

42:37Yes, that's very sad. I mean, it was a beautiful property, both the main house and the towers. I think even in my time there, which was about 12 years, the towers partially blew down in one massive windstorm and had to be reconstructed. Oh. And all the roofs were flat. And so there were some leaks, but nothing that couldn't be dealt with. But it was also maybe a little bit because of that.

43:08Well, that's to be expected. Yeah. One of his great moments was when Velik's windows arrived because whatever used before, which was some sort of domed skylight, always leaked. And that was a big part of how he brought natural light into his interior spaces because he had a lot of flat roofs in his designs. And leaking was a constant issue. As a kid, did you get to visit the Donnelly train station, the house that your dad designed?

43:41Oh, my goodness. Yes, because he was my godfather. Oh, OK. So we would go over there because they had a pool, which was always nice. And we would get to ride the trains as well, which is probably a pretty unique experience. This was a private little train collection. That's correct. It was over inland, so there was a lot of space. I couldn't tell you what gauge the trains were, but he had two sets of tracks, and he had working trains that he could engineer or be the engineer on.

44:17And he was a huge man. He was probably 6'6", 6'8". And he would sit on the engine and drive the train, and you as a kid would be in the back. Oh, so this wasn't just a model train. This was like a real train. Oh, no, no. These were real. Wow. They were real trains. A large number of them are in a museum, and off the top of my head, I don't know where it was. He also had a collection in a series of barns that were full-size trains.

44:50And my father designed a whimsical train station for him. That's just like a complete fantasy there come true for you and your family. I can't think of anything even remotely like it outside of some kind of theme park. I have no idea how my great-uncle got interested in trains. It was at a time, I think, too, when you could, and it still exists, you can have your private car and attach it to trains in the real world.

45:23And I know they did that as well. And the Donnelly family was always very interested in trains as a result. When we spoke before the interview, you said there was a moment in time when your dad had really had it with modernism. What happened then? Well, I don't know if he'd had it, if that's the right way to put it, but he decided to pivot. We had always gone to the North Shore of Boston in the summer because that's a place that he fondly remembered from his youth. And he would commute as needed for his practice, but we would spend a good three months there over summer vacation and school.

46:03And while he was there, he, I think, started getting more interested in the New England architecture and started buying properties. He was particularly attracted to the federal forms and federal style of architecture. So he ultimately bought some Beacon Hill townhouses. And one house in particular that was somewhat infamous locally was a federal home in Salem that was being torn down to make way to build for the new courthouse and public buildings.

46:39And he bought it for a dollar. Wow. He floated it across the harbor from Salem to Manchester, which is probably about three miles, and put it on a site in downtown Manchester that was a former lumberyard. And I can see it from my office window. He started doing that, you know, almost 100%, but would constantly get calls from prior clients that wanted him to do one more thing. And occasionally he would do something like that, which is how he found his way down to Mountain Lake. Okay.

47:10Well, Ben, thank you so much for sharing the story. You can see more about IW Colburn at usmartens.org slash Colburn. George is speaking with Ben Colburn.

Interview with Veronica Swift

47:24Veronica Swift was raised inside jazz clubs. Her dad was a bebop legend and her mom quit her Wall Street job the night she heard him play. By the time she was nine years old, Veronica had her own record out. She placed second at the Thelonious Monk competition and built a reputation as one of the most technically stunning jazz vocalists of her generation. And a couple of years ago, she formed a hard rock band called Dane, complete with a confetti cannon. Here's George's conversation with Veronica Swift.

47:57Veronica, let's start with your neighborhood. Tell me about some of the fantastic houses that you live nearby. Oh, of course. Yeah. When I was looking for homes to live in in L.A., L.A. kind of has a wider range of styles of architecture. I mean, like you could walk down a road and pass by a mid-century modern and then like a Tudor castle and then, you know, super, super contemporary, like white wall, angular house. So it's like amazing. I wanted to find a house that reminded me of the house I grew up in, which was like a Tudor 1920s, you know, exposed beams and brick, you know, a lot of fireplaces.

48:32And that was the house that I lived in that burnt down. Oh, no. I came across this gorgeous street in Pasadena is where I live, and it's up the street from the Rose Bowl. So there's like actually a historical society that protects the streets and the houses so that you can't like modernize them. They have to maintain the aesthetic. I love L.A. so much. So the street, yeah, it's like a lot of the architects who built 1920s Hollywood, right, like all the stars homes and Hollywood Hills and Beverly Hills, all the architects lived in Pasadena.

49:04So Pasadena houses have this tastefulness to them, I think. It's like it's not too ostentatious, but they're well-built, just artistic. I just love it. The Duncan Irwin house is a walking distance from our house. We have, of course, the Gamble house, which is a big attraction. Green and green, yeah. Yeah, back to the future. And here down the street from my house, just two blocks down, is the Millard house, Frank Lloyd Wright. So it's really, really gorgeous here. You're right in the epicenter. When I was a kid, man, I loved architecture.

49:36So this is a huge—I actually wanted to be an architect if I wasn't a musician, but I started early. So I was always drawing house plans all the time, and still do. Well, speaking of starting early, you had your first album at nine? Nine? Yes. I mean, that must be some kind of record for that time. My mom and dad are well-known jazz musicians. My father, Hot O'Brien, was in Chad Baker's band, Oscar Pettiford, Art Farmer. He was in the bebop era, like, late 50s. So he just kind of hit the, like, end of the bebop era since he was born in 1936.

50:09So my dad, pianist, my mother, Stephanie Nacassian, great jazz singer, was with—when Lambert Hendrickson-Ross broke up, she joined John Hendricks' four-piece vocal group. So I grew up on the road with my parents. They were—that was—bebop and jazz was, like, the culture and the language that I grew up around. You know, when you grow up speaking a language or— If both your parents are in a line of work, let's say both your parents are architects, you're probably around that culture, right? Like, in that community. So that was my childhood, and I got started early.

50:39You know, it wasn't like a serious record, we're going to put out a record and get reviews. It was just—I started singing with this youth jazz band and with my parents. My mom and dad just wanted to—that's what a record is. It's a record of a moment in time. It's capturing—it's like a photograph, right? Capturing a moment in time. And when you're a child, time moves quickly, so you want to capture those moments. And I did another one at 11 when I did my first professional headlining appearance, which was at Dizzy's Club Coca-Cola, jazz at Lincoln Center. And so that's when we did a second album, just a little more—you know, a little more grown up.

51:13It was, like, almost a teenager. And then, yeah, so just my mom and dad trying to capture these moments in time. Well, tell me about this first song, I Am What I Am. Yeah, off of my recent self-titled, I'd been putting out records for—since I was nine. But this last record that I did, which was the self-titled, people—a lot of people ask, why wouldn't you have put the first record out as the self-titled? Well, because I didn't really know myself, right? I think we—it takes a lot—a lot of years and work and decades to discover who we are.

51:43And then, of course, that can all change, too, as we grow. But for the first time, I was able to release music that I felt was truly representative of the full kind of spectrum and embodiment of what I do musically, which is not just jazz. It's classical music. Because I grew up singing Bach fugues and preludes just for fun. I was obsessed with Baroque music, obsessed with rock and roll and theatrical rock, Queen and Sweet and Sparks. And so all this music is in me, and I wanted to put it all in a record. And so I Am What I Am, of course, being from La Cage aux Folles, sung by a drag queen taking pride in who they are and not hiding from the world, that was the perfect song to start the record with.

52:23Here's Veronica with I Am What I Am. I Am What I Am

52:55Oh, I Am What I Am, I Am my own special creation. So come, come, come take a look, give me the hook, or the ovation.

53:21It's my world that I want to take a little pride in, my world, and it's not a place I have to hide in. Your life is a sham, till you can say, hey world, I am what I am. I am what I am, I don't want praise, I don't want pity, no.

54:04Oh, I bang my own drum, some think it's noise, some think it's pretty. And so what if I love each feather and each bangle? Why not try to see things from a different angle? Life's not worth a damn, till you can shout out loud, I am what I am. Baby-a-do-ba-do-do, do! Pa-pa-pa-for-ba-do-d, ba, pa-pa-u-ba-do-dee ba, pa-pa-roo-ba-do.

54:39Wee! Thank you.

55:10Thank you.

55:40Thank you.

56:10Thank you.

56:40Thank you.

57:10Thank you.

57:40Thank you. Thank you.

Fighting AI music generation

58:17Oh, loved that new single of yours, Still Healing, and they're, you know, joking around because people were all very aware of how much of a problem the AI music is becoming. And so what are these? These are not me. They're not supposed songs of yours. They're not you. They're not me. No, it's uploaded by somebody in some other location in the globe. I don't know where they are, who they are. It's uploaded by the same user, which is really interesting. There's been three tracks uploaded that are not me. First of all, they don't even sound like me.

58:47It sounds like a pop singer kind of style. My vibrato, my usage of phrasing is nothing like this AI singing prompt. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's, this is something that's happening to like thousands and tens of thousands of artists, hundreds of thousands. It's happening to people like the Kenny Barron's out there who they're not paying attention to what, you know, they just make a record and tour. They're not out there like in the digital world and like understanding what streaming is. And Kenny Barron's coming out with AI tracks every day and people who are dead coming out with, you know, like Cyrus Chestnut or Chick Corea and all these other artists like alive or dead.

59:21Think about the young artists who are trying to get their name out there. They target independent artists who don't have a team or a major label and major money that can go and track them down. So they target millions of independent artists, self-releasing or what have you. I don't get a notification of, is this you, you know, to confirm or deny. I think Spotify is trying to... No, two-step verification. Nothing. No. Why do people do this? Well... Are they going to make money off of it? Well, they, they, they target millions of artists and they figure, you know, making a dollar from a stream of millions of artists,

59:53of millions of artists leads to a million dollars, but that's not, as we can see, this isn't financially such a big benefit to these people anyways. What's happening is then they get the streams off of a name that's already kind of somewhat established. I'm not currently on a label that has a team that can go and hunt this person down. You know, it's just me. It's horrible. Now you recently had something in Rolling Stone talking about this. Is that right? Yes. Yes. And you know, I have my personal feelings about AI, of course. However, I look at it like fire.

1:00:23You know, it's a tool that can be used to destroy or create. And we have to go after the people that are using, misusing it. To do that, we have to be really secure regulations in place. So I'm very vocal about this on socials, educating people like yourselves who didn't even know this was a problem. Right. And to not just use the platform to complain about it and go, isn't this crazy? But to actually give my audience like marching orders, say, when you see this, do this and follow these steps. There's, I go through a whole step-by-step thing of ways you can help bring this to the attention of, you know, it's like reporting the tracks or saying this is not this artist, you know, that starts there.

1:00:59I made enough of a, you know, stink about this that I was approached by, yeah, Rolling Stone and along with many other fantastic artists, independent artists out there that are also fighting the good fight. Well, let's hear a song that is genuine. This is you singing Do Nothing Until You Hear From Me. This is you singing Do Nothing Until You Hear From Me.

1:01:32Thank you.

1:02:02Thank you.

1:02:32Thank you.

1:03:02Thank you.

1:03:33If you should take the words I thought you heard, oh baby, I haven't a chance. Thank you.

1:04:14Thank you.

1:04:44Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

1:05:14Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

1:05:34Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Now it's true I've been with someone new

1:06:06Oh, but tell me, honey, does that mean I've been untrue? Oh, baby, when we're apart All the words in my heart Reveal how I feel about you Some kiss may cloud my memory

1:06:35And other arms may hold a bril Some kiss may cloud my memory And other arms may hold a bril Oh, yeah I said, but do nothing till you hear from me And you'll never win

1:07:10Veronica, what is next for you? Where are you going to be touring this fall? Yeah, I mean, it's been an insane year so far My fall is, I'm trying to keep it a little quieter Because the spring and the summer was just so insane From touring in East Coast, West Coast, Midwest, Texas, Florida And then I went to Japan in June to promote the new record Which came out and played my first show at Blue Note Tokyo

1:07:40Wow Headlining And then went into Europe three times You know, I'm kind of all over the world I'm also, like, putting out my rock band Dame Which I went to London to play with some musicians out there And I got my songs on UK radio So it's been a busy, busy year So fall, I'm trying to keep it a little more chill Stay home for a day or two? Yeah August 28th, I am going to Budapest To play with the jazz orchestra there Cool And then I think I'm going to be singing with the Geneva Orchestra as well

1:08:14So before we go What is an official channel or source people can go to To make sure they're listening to you? I mean, my music is all over Anywhere you listen to music, that's where I am I'm, you know, Veronica Swift or Dame If you like the rock stuff And you can find out what I'm doing in real time By following me on Instagram That's where I'm very, very active and vocal on there I also teach I give, like, vocal tips on there And I'm keeping people up to date with where tours are So Instagram really is the best way Also joining my mailing list on VeronicaSwift.com

1:08:46I like to communicate directly with my fans Veronica, thank you so much for joining us This has been a real pleasure Thanks very much Thanks for listening

Credits and closing remarks

1:08:56U.S. Modernist Radio is underwritten By the Brent R. Harris Charitable Trust Restorer of Richard Neutra's Kauffman Desert House in Palm Springs And six other houses in California By the Ife Jones Conservancy Preserving the legacy of modernist architecture in Northwest Arkansas IfeJonesConservancy.org And by Diane Bald and the Budman Family Restoring significant architecture in Toronto, Los Angeles, Malibu, and Palm Springs Visit usmodernist.org's massive archives to listen to past shows

1:09:27Discover documentation of 25,000 significant modernist houses And access 5 million pages of classic 20th century architecture magazines U.S. Modernist Radio is produced by Soundtracks Recording Studios in Raleigh, North Carolina Our theme song was performed by George Smart and Robinson Earl With guest research by Bobby Morris Got a guest to suggest for the show? Writer at bobby at usmodernist.org U.S. Modernist Radio is a production of Modernist Archive Incorporated A non-profit educational archive for the documentation, preservation, and promotion

1:10:00Of modernist residential design I'm Tom Gild George and I'll be back soon with another Save the Doom Buildings edition Of U.S. Modernist Radio Save the Doom Buildings