#464/Ellen Mirro + Howard Miller + Dominic Bradbury + Andy Cohen + Musical Guest Steve Holt

Welcome to U.S. Modernist Radio

0:00Hi, I'm Alex Josephson, the founder of Partisans Architecture here in Toronto, Canada, and you are listening to U.S. Modernist Radio. Mama don't allow no architecture around here. Mama don't allow no architecture around here. Oh, I don't care what mama don't allow, gonna draw my modern anyhow. Mama don't allow no architecture around here. Welcome to U.S. Modernist Radio, where we talk and laugh with people who enjoy, own, create, dream about, preserve, love, and hate modernist architecture, the most exciting and controversial buildings in the world.

0:38I'm Tom Guild. On this episode, we welcome Ellen Miro and Howard Miller of Studio TJP in Seattle. Then it's Dominic Bradbury, author of a new book on the style we all love to love, Nordic Modernism. Next, Andy Cohen, a magician, business strategist, and NYU professor, who argues that architects and illusionists are in exactly the same business. Last to bat, musical guest Steve Holt, a Montreal jazz pianist who gave up Wall Street and won a Juno nomination.

1:12And now, here is your host, Mr. Modernism, George Smart.

The Obama Presidential Center

1:16Hey, thanks, Tom. Last June, the Obama Presidential Center officially opened its doors in Chicago's Jackson Park. And yes, you're not hallucinating. That tower looks like it belongs in Star Wars. The 225-foot tower is wrapped in New Hampshire granite with five-foot-tall letters that spell out words from Obama's speeches. It has almost no windows. It is massive, monolithic, and dark when it rains. It is the death star of presidential libraries.

1:47And I mean that as the highest possible compliment. The architects, Todd Williams and Billy Sin, have said the tower's unusual shape is inspired by four hands coming together, or a rock the architects found in Ethiopia. This is a beautiful story. It is also completely incompatible with any reasonable assessment of how it looks to an average person. The building has an 83-foot vertical glass artwork that glows from within, which is either a luminous monument to civic aspiration or the exhaust port the rebels are inevitably going to target.

2:20Oh, no. It sticks out on the cityscape like a heavily armed imperial battle station hovering above a peaceful park. And the Chicago Sun-Times said this was meant in a good way, whatever that means. The library costs roughly $850 million, nearly triple the original $300 million estimate, plus more than $350 million in public infrastructure spending tied to the surrounding area. You may recall the empire was also famously over budget. Are you thinking I don't like the design?

2:50Untrue. It's really cool. And to be fair, this death star has an NBA regulation-sized basketball court because Barack Obama is, at his core, a Chicago guy who just wanted a place to shoot hoops in a building that looks like it could jump at any moment into hyperspace. It also has a fruit and vegetable garden, a wetlands walk, a branch of the Chicago Public Library, and a playground. Darth Vader never offered any of those. The dedication in June featured every living president except Donald Trump, who was not invited,

3:24which in Star Wars terms means Emperor Palpatine had to watch from Mar-a-Lago. May the force be with you, Chicago. U.S. Modernist Radio is underwritten by the Brent R. Harris Charitable Trust, restorer of Richard Neutra's Kauffman Desert House in Palm Springs, and six other houses in California. By the Ife Jones Conservancy, preserving the legacy of modernist architecture in northwest Arkansas, ifejonesconservancy.org. And by Diane Bald and the Budman family, restoring significant architecture in Toronto,

3:56Los Angeles, Malibu, and Palm Springs.

Interview with Studio TJP

4:06Seattle has no shortage of old houses worth saving. Craftsman bungalows, 1930s tutors, mid-century ranches, and Studio TJP knows how to save them. With a degree from Cornell, Go Big Red! Howard Miller also designs and builds furniture. Ellen Miro is an architect and an architectural historian with a master's from the University of Washington. Go Huskies! And a B.A. from UC Santa Cruz. Go Banana Slugs! When firms like Gensler or King Okuma's office

4:38have a project with a preservation dimension, Ellen is often the person they call. Here is George with Ellen Miro and Howard Miller. Ellen, before we talk about architecture, like for people, understand that you are a gingerbread house architect. Is that right? Oh. Yeah, it's a tradition that I was doing with my kids every year. Until this year, 2025, I didn't do it. So, yeah. Was there some architectural incident that caused you to stop?

5:09Um, I think it was just, you know, being busy with the business and things, and the kids are grown, and... And, I mean, in previous years, she's done some very remarkable ones, like the whole farm, or... Yeah. I mean, just incredible gingerbread constructions. Yeah. I think it was also the first year that my oldest son didn't come home for Christmas. There you go. Uh-huh. Yeah. Uh-huh. There was a Bavarian castle, right? Oh, yeah. Yeah.

5:39I mean, it was just like a fantasy castle, not really based on anything. That still counts. I mean, it's gingerbread. It's supposed to be fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. Did you have any modernist houses, like a Mies-style house in there? Oh, well, I did our office building in 2024. Okay. And that is a 1962 building. Well, the first level was 62, and the upper floor was added in 63. Okay. A remarkable year for Seattle architecture.

6:09Absolutely. It was a remarkable year across the whole country for modernist architecture. At that point, if you were to open up an architecture magazine, it might be like 200, 300, 400 pages as these buildings were just bursting on the scene everywhere. Yeah. Now, speaking of hobbies, Howard, you have been restoring a sailboat, right? An R-class sloop? Well, that's long cast. That was restored probably, what, 15 years ago it was finished or 20?

6:39Okay. Okay. And we donated it to the Center for Wooden Boats here in Seattle, and they've maintained it since. And just this past year, I think they sold it out of their collection. It was a little big and a lot to maintain. Yeah. Well, what is that phrase? A boat is a hole in the water in which you pour money? Well, yes, that is the phrase, and that is true, especially when it's all wood. Now, was this one of those boats that was made of a special wood like teak? So it was two layers of wood of different varieties.

7:11So it had a layer of teak, but it also had a layer of cedar. Okay. And they were laid crosswise to each other. So it was a very strong, very lightweight boat. And just because I'm curious, how do you keep the water from ruining the wood like that? Oh, it's painted on the outside. It has layers and layers of paint. And when the underwater part, it actually has a lead paint, traditionally. Okay. The particular R boat, the Pirate, that's the name of the boat, they shipped it across the country to race on the East Coast.

7:42And then they brought it back. And it's been on the West Coast ever since. But it did well. Now, Ellen, how did the two of you meet? Well, I got a job with Larry Johnson, who was our former boss. And Howard had been there for 10 or 15 years at that point. 10 years. Yeah, 10 years. And then our other partner, Steve, had been there five years. And then we've just worked together ever since. And that was 2005.

8:14So I guess I get all the credit for Ellen's shortcuts in the CAD program and all the bad habits. They're all my fault. Yeah. He was my NCARB mentor and worked out well. Tell me about some of the modernist renovations you've been working on. Well, so one that just finished was a 1962 Ralph Anderson home. It was single pane stopped in glass. So the glass was just set right into the wood studs.

8:46So there was no, there's no window frame. It's just all glass. So the big challenge we had there was how to maintain the original architect's intent and yet get better energy performance from the building. So we ended up pulling out all the single pane glass, routing the depth of the stud a little bit deeper so we could fit double pane glass in there and then putting it back in place. And then to prevent water penetration. Okay. It was a real trick in terms of the various sealants

9:19we had to use and the order of operations and new flashing for the window. It was a big chore, but it was worth it. It's a beautiful home. So you're taking a piece of old single pane glass, which is what, like a quarter inch roughly? Not even. Not even, okay. Between an eighth and a quarter, but closer to an eighth. And you're placing with something that's what, half an inch? Three quarters of an inch. Okay. Three quarters of an inch. Okay. So much more insulating, right? Much more insulating.

9:50Yeah. So the original studs, they took a router to them and scraped them back so that they had enough depth to put that wood in. We didn't have room to do the external stops like it had before. So instead, we did an overlay of like a one-by that's the same width as the stud. So you don't lose anything. You know, you still have the same amount of glass area that you had before. Now, Ellen, you do a lot of projects with historic preservation.

10:22When you get a mid-century house or building, how do you go about researching it? Um, the same way I research all of my history projects. I go to the library. I go to all my archives. I look in the old newspapers, interview people. I will say I recently wrote a report where Ralph Anderson had been a contributor to the building. And it was a 1909 building and he had done a remodel.

10:57And the remarkable thing about Ralph Anderson is that not only was he a modernist architect, but he was one of the first preservationists in Seattle. So he was working with Victor Steinbrock very closely on preserving Pioneer Square and the Pike Place Market. So that's why I'm kind of fascinated by Ralph Anderson. I think Pike Place Market is, of course, one of the most well-known locations in Seattle,

11:28but a lot of people don't know that it almost went away. Yeah. What was that story? Well, you know, in the time of urban renewal, old buildings were not valued. And there was a fantastic design by actually Paul Kirk to make Pike Place Market into a big hotel convention center type of a thing. And the Central Business District was all on board with that, but there was a huge public support,

12:01really led by Victor Steinbrock and Ralph Anderson, just a grassroots movement to save the market. And faced with that kind of pressure, the ordinance to support the new convention center thing just didn't pass. So the market was saved. I think Pioneer Square was like the first historic district in Seattle. And so they took that same idea and applied it to the market. It was very early in the historic preservation movement here in Seattle,

12:34which started in 72. Now, Howard, you've been in the area a long time. What have you seen with the changes of tech companies coming in and being based there? There's so many in Seattle still. Well, I live in Fremont, which is one of the small neighborhoods of the city of Seattle proper. And what I noticed was when I moved there in 1990, there were all kinds of little secondhand store and a junk shop and a dive bar and little things like that. And then all the tech companies came in.

13:05And in fact, Adobe had a big building right in Fremont. And everything got replaced with sort of boutique stores and fancy lunch places rather than the old grittiness of the neighborhood. So that was a big change. I did hear recently that Adobe was moving out of Fremont. Curious to see what the next change is, because that will obviously have an influence on the neighborhood. So two questions then. Are you planning any gritty dive bars for your neighborhood?

13:38No. Fremont had a lot of... But I would patronize one. When I was in architecture school at the University of Washington, that's where they took us to visit artist studios and maker spaces in Fremont. And then over the course of my career as well, all those people moved down to another neighborhood called Georgetown because they got priced out of Fremont. Is Georgetown still the artistic neighborhood? It is kind of... That's where the artists go now. Well, I think Hillman City is the next one because Georgetown is getting a little bit more pricey.

14:11Yeah, that's where our office is. Okay. Okay. So a question I ask architects all the time, with regard to clients, what makes an ideal client other than having a great budget? I think the budget is always the thing. I've had some wonderful clients that just take their time and do things bit by bit. I did a modernist house on Maple Creek in North Seattle, and that particular client,

14:43she just wanted to do things bit by bit, do the kitchen here, do the bathrooms there, do the decks there. And it was just sort of the longevity and stewardship of the project and her commitment to the authenticity of the architecture that made her a great client. So one of the things I think makes a good client is the relationship you establish because what we do is we listen to the clients and try to give them what they want. But then on the other side,

15:15the client needs to listen to us because we're trying to give them what they want, right? So if we take something in and we develop an idea or a design and they go, oh, no, I was thinking that the bathroom needs to be over here. And you can just say, no, this is where we've put it because this is what we know that you want, right? This will get you that peekaboo view from the bathroom that you're not expecting or whatever it is, right? So it's that relationship. Or the compromises with the sewer stack that you might have to make.

15:46Right. But it's the relationship that makes a great client, right? It's the interaction and working together. Yeah. What advice do you give people who are thinking about hiring an architect? Hire us. Okay. Keep going.

16:03It's the same advice I give people when they're looking for a contractor. Their trust is the most important ingredient because your home is your biggest investment you're going to make. And you don't want to just hand that over to someone that you don't trust and can't communicate with. Communication. Yeah. That's the key ingredient. So that's a very good general piece of advice. But what specifically can they be doing in their communication?

16:34What would you advise a couple, say, that wants to come and hire an architect about how they should be with you? I just like them to call me whenever they have a question or email. The more information I have, the better I can do my job. And also the more comfortable they can be if I can explain the process to them. Howard? Um, I don't know. It's hard to put into words. Every client is different. And so you have to adapt your communication style to each client or your approach to meetings

17:12or, right. So I have one client who I know every time I'm going to give them a design, they're going to take it and they're going to want to massage it and make it theirs because they are very creative people and that's what they want. And so I work with them to do that. There's other clients who come to me and say, you know, just design me a house and they give me a few parameters. It has to have a great room or whatever. And then, and then they let me go and then I develop something and it goes back and forth and they're a little bit less concerned with all how the little bits go together.

17:45Right. And so in terms of what a client needs to bring to us is really what is their approach to the project? Are they going to be involved? Let us know. Are they going to step back? Let us know. We can accommodate. We just need to know what they want. Back in the day of mid-century modernism, some architects would give clients questionnaires. Richard Neutra would notoriously go live with the family over a weekend to get a sense of

18:17how they lived. How do you get to know your clients? Oh, mostly through our meetings, you know, whether it's online or in person, I always like to meet the client on site, whether it's for a new house or a remodel or whatever. It's really important for me to see how they live in the space. I don't need to live with them for a weekend, but for every interview, I ask for a tour of the house and their explanation of what they want to happen or the tour of the property

18:49and where they'd like to see the house, just so that I know where they're coming from as I go forward with the project. Ellen, how about you? I tend to have clients that are just really long-term clients. So I keep my clients for 10 or 15 years. I have a lovely couple who I was with for the birth of both of their babies. We did their first house in four phases, and then they did their dream house 10 years after that for, you know, the modernist home that I did in North Seattle.

19:22I worked with her for over 15 years. She had been the board chair of a sorority that I was a stewardship architect on. And then she had this modernist house actually by a woman designer, Anna Williams. And since we worked together so well on the sorority, she just brought me over to her house. And like I said, we just did one little project after another until the house was fully restored. Ellen, Howard, thank you so much for talking with me.

19:54You can find more about these two at the Seattle-based Studio TJP. Oh, okay. Wow. Thank you. That was fun. I was like so ready to tell you the whole development of modernism in Seattle. George was chatting with Seattle's Ellen Miro and Howard Miller.

Nordic Modernism with Dominic Bradbury

20:13If you've ever picked up a beautifully produced architecture book, chances are you've seen Dominic Bradbury's work. Dominic is a writer, journalist, and design consultant based in England. His latest book, co-authored with photographer Richard Powers, is The Iconic Nordic House, Modern Masterwork Since 1900. Forty landmark homes across Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Finland, Iceland, and the Faroe Islands. Tracing Nordic modernism from Alto and Jacobson all the way to the present day.

20:47Fireplaces, saunas, natural materials, a deep connection to Nordic warmth. It's all great stuff. And after this conversation with Dominic Bradbury, you'll know exactly what he means. Dominic, I continue to be amazed at the prolific output that you seem to have. And I just found out recently, though, that on top of writing, what, two books a year at least, you completed a PhD program in the last couple of years. How do you do this? Tell me.

21:18Well, yes, it's true. Yeah, I've just finished a PhD. It's been quite a long time in the making, actually. I've been working on that for about five or six years, mostly part-time. And then trying to balance that with, you know, the book projects and so on. So, yeah, it's been a bit of a juggling act. But one of my book editors actually suggested, because I was doing so much sort of research related to architecture and design, why not do a PhD?

21:51And I naively took this on board and sort of embraced the idea. And then sort of six years later, it's finally done. So it's quite a recent thing. So in terms of completing it, but there was some crossover with my other work and other research. So that's kind of that's why it worked, I think. Right. I mean, this was not a PhD in biology. This was a PhD in architectural history. So it's exactly what you're doing pretty much, right?

22:22Yeah. Yeah. It was kind of fresh work, fresh research. But there was overlap with some of my other projects. So without that, it would have definitely been too much. And so there was this kind of synergy and kind of cross fertilization with, you know, some of the books and a degree of overlap. But on the other hand, it had to be a sort of fresh piece of work. So it was more demanding, I would say, than I had anticipated.

22:53As PhDs are known to do. They are, yeah. That's why I said I was naive. I was definitely naive going into it. And it was a rigorous process, I think I would say. Was this a PhD that you have to show up for, for classwork or was it remote? How did it work for you? Well, it was a PhD with the University of the Arts London in conjunction with my local university, Norwich University of the Arts.

23:24So my supervisor, my internal supervisor, as they call them, rather than my external, was at Norwich, which is near where I live. So but most of you don't really go to class. Most of the work is research based and sort of in the archives, in the library and so on. It's very self-generated. I see. But it was architectural history. So, yeah, it was my area. So how were the parties? Did you and your fellow students have some fun times together or take trips or have cocktails in some fantastic house along the way?

24:02Not that often. No, it's quite, to be honest, it can be quite a lonely business sometimes. I mean, there was a cohort of PhD students, a small cohort. So, yes, we would get together and sort of have a drink now and again. But most of the time, you're out there on your own in the field, as they say. You have to be pretty disciplined. I would think that Norwich would now want you to come teach this stuff.

24:33Have they talked to you about that? Well, I've been wondering because I've only just finished the PhD and been awarded the PhD, the doctorate. So I'm thinking about what happens next. You know, do I want to try and continue going down the academic route or do I just want to concentrate on the books, which is actually what I really love doing? And I think the PhD research has actually helped me a lot, you know, in terms of developing research skills and developing the academic strand of my writing.

25:08So I think I've gained a lot from that process anyway and a lot that can feed into the book project. So that's the big question for me at the moment is kind of what do I do next? Do I just sort of embrace the books or do I try and do some other things as well? Well, your books are wonderful. And the latest one is called The Iconic Nordic House, Modern Masterwork Since 1900, co-authored with Richard Powers. And of course, you know, Nordic architecture is really the gold standard, I think, in the world for modern design.

25:43I mean, everybody in every country looks to the Nordic countries for architecture, for furniture, for art, for prints, things like that. And you go on a trip to these countries and go in some of the buildings and you think to yourself like, man, why can't we have good things where we live? Well, I kind of thought that a lot while we were traveling. And I mean, I really agree with you. I think it does set a gold standard in terms of design, architecture, furniture.

26:16But I found myself being sort of slightly envious just of their lifestyle and their, you know, the way of life in Scandinavia. They seem to get, I mean, they don't get everything right, of course, but they get so much right. And they seem to have a very good sort of work-life balance, which I don't really have, for example. You are the worst example of work-life balance, Dominic. I think I am a terrible, terrible example. I think it's getting worse.

26:46Yes, you piled a PhD on top of your workload. I did. That's what I mean. It's getting worse. So, yeah. So, I think adding a teaching appointment at a university should be a piece of cake for you. Thank you. Thank you. I will always come to you for careers advice. Thank you. Thank you. So, most people who are into architecture have heard of Alvar Aalto as kind of a famous person in this genre.

27:18But tell me about some of the major architects in Scandinavia that you were discovering. Yeah, I mean, it was such a list. I mean, part of the fun of the book was curating the list, really, of the architects and the houses that we wanted to go and photograph and include in the book and write about. So, I mean, within the book, we're trying to tell the story of the past 125 years of Nordic architecture through 40 houses, influential houses. So, in terms of sort of curating or choosing those houses, we wanted that span through time to give us that story of 125 years and the evolution of Nordic architecture.

28:00And we wanted some different aesthetics within that, you know, sort of arts and crafts, early modernism, mid-century modernism, of course, which is very well represented. And then we wanted to include all of the Nordic mainland countries. And then we went to Iceland and the Faroe Islands as well. So, that was kind of the criteria in a nutshell. And then there's some wonderful, you know, wonderful, wonderful architects like Jorn Utzon, Finn Ewell, who was, of course, also a furniture designer.

28:31Alvar Aalto, Arne Jakobsen. And then a few surprises in there. We always like to throw in a few surprises. So, like Matty Surinan's Futuro House. Oh, yes, the lovely Futuro House. So, say more about that because I think a number of serious architecture fans have Futuro on their Instagram feeds. Probably, yeah. I mean, so do I. It was an experimental prefab house that Matty Surinan developed in Finland with a company basically specialized in plastics and plastic buildings and plastic products.

29:10So, they developed this idea for a prefab house that was lightweight enough and kind of durable enough to basically be dropped on the top of a mountain and serve as a ski cabin or a lookout post or, you know, drop on an island. And so, they launched this idea based on Surinan's design for a house that basically looks like a flying saucer. Yes, it looks like one of those props from a 1950s sci-fi movie.

29:41It does. Yeah, it's fantastic. And it's very clever. It all kind of bolts together. It's all made in sort of bits and pieces that are then kind of bolted together and they sit on a ring beam and the ring beam sort of is anchored on legs to the floor. And then you sort of walk in through a little hall, through a hatch, which is like an airline kind of hatch, which makes it, you know, feel even more like a sort of flying saucer or a spaceship. And you walk in and the interiors feel like a spaceship because you've got this sort of row of sort of fitted seating around a sort of central round sort of fireplace that almost actually looks like a kind of spaceship console.

30:23And the seats adjust and turn into beds. So, there's a very sort of airline kind of cabin-y feel to it, as in airline cabin or a boat cabin. So, it's a real favourite. Now, the ones I've seen really didn't have much internally. There was no place to pee. There was no place to have water. Did they all outfit that way or were the original ones have plumbing? Well, the one we saw, which was actually number one, it was the first one that went into commercial production.

30:59And it was kind of a limited production for various reasons. But there was like a tiny little kitchenette to one side with a little sink. And then there was a tiny little sort of washroom to the other side. So, you could plumb it in, basically. Okay. So, you could get some water going and some facilities. But it was, again, it was a little bit like a boat because, you know, it's quite limited. Yeah. Yeah. I could see it like a camper, a caravan, a small caravan. Yeah, exactly.

31:29Yeah. Caravan, sort of boat, yeah, airline cabin. Yeah, it was all of those kind of things coming together within a sort of basically something that looked like a spaceship. And how many did they make, approximately? It wasn't many. It wasn't many, no. I think something like sort of 25 or 30, you know, something of that kind. And then it was basically a victim of the 1970s oil crisis. And so, the cost of production suddenly skyrocketed and there was like a global recession during the early 70s.

32:02And they basically canned it. They couldn't sell any more of these. But they did sell them in America. So, I think there are quite a few. There are a couple, yeah. In America. Yeah. Yeah. Now, I know for a long time you've had a dream of building a 21st century modernist house for yourself because you live in a Victorian now. Yeah. And since we already have established how much free time you have, have you made plans to design one of these? Well, I have a sort of modest plan to design something in the garden of where we live now.

32:38Okay. So, I think you call these ADUs, is that right? Yes, an ADU, uh-huh. ADU, yeah. So, we'd like to design an ADU, which are kind of sketched out on the back of an envelope. So, that's kind of what we're thinking. You know, it's a way of getting this out of my system that we will design an ADU. So, we'll have the modern ADU at the bottom of the garden and a more traditional house at the other end. And I assume you're not going to waste this on a guest.

33:09You're going to make this your office, right? Well, exactly. Yeah. As you can see, as George can see me, he can see my office, which I'm outgrowing very rapidly. So, yeah, that's the dream. I kind of build the ADU, and then while no one's looking, I just take it over and take all my books down there. There you go. Well, it's so fantastic now because there are so many choices for ADUs. I mean, I get emails now from Amazon that is selling ADU kits, and they just bring the truck to your house.

33:45In some cases, you put it together. In some cases, they just crane it off the truck and drop it onto a platform. You know, that should be one of your next books. Well, yeah, definitely. I mean, it kind of goes back to the futuro. Yeah, exactly. We were talking about it. It's like, you know, maybe I can have a futuro in my garden or something like that. Yeah, you can do a lot better than a futuro, I think. Yeah, I think I need a bit more space, actually. They're a little cramped. Outgrow a futuro.

34:16When you were in Denmark, do the citizens and people that you met know what they have? Did they realize what a glorious design tradition they're sitting on top of? I think in Denmark they do, yeah, because it just seems to be so pervasive. And when you're in Copenhagen, I think especially it's got such an incredible, you know, design life and design district. And they have this, now have a design fair sort of every spring. So, I think in certain parts of Denmark, certainly, yeah, I think they are very aware of it.

34:52And they've got a fantastic design museum. So, yeah, I think in Denmark particularly. But then also, I think in Finland, in Norway, I mean, it's a very design conscious, you know, environment generally, I think. And in Iceland, I think, again, which I'd never visited before, I think is also actually very design conscious. So, yeah, I think there's just an awareness and sort of level of education about design that is really impressive and pervasive.

35:26Now, how far north did you get? Because above a certain latitude, you really move into that genre we might call Arctic modernism. Yeah, yeah. Well, we did get into the Arctic. Yeah, I mean, I think we had a few adventures. So, we went to the north of Norway. It's not that there is another north. There's a far north. Yes. So, we didn't go to the far north, but we went to the north, which is in the Arctic circle. And photographed a couple of extraordinary places up there. And then we went to Iceland.

35:57As I say, we went to the Faroe Islands, which is north. Yes. So, yeah, we certainly got north and we had some adventures in the snow and with weather. Weather in Iceland is quite extraordinary. Faroe Islands is fantastic, actually. If you ever get a chance to visit the Faroe Islands, it's incredible. It's really beautiful. But then it's all linked together by these underground tunnels that connect most of the different islands together.

36:30So, you can sort of drive under the sea to the next island and sort of pop up. Really? I've never heard of these. Yeah, I hadn't really heard about this before we went. But I think also they have the world's only undersea roundabout. So, you're driving through this tunnel and then suddenly you arrive at this roundabout underground. When did this get built? I want to say maybe like 15, 20 years ago. Okay. But somehow they managed to sort of deliver this.

37:01That's incredible. It's incredible. It is incredible. Let's go back to the houses. Are there any special considerations for building an Arctic house versus a house, say, at London's latitude? Well, yeah. I mean, I think there are. There's a lot of common sense in terms of insulation, you know, dealing with the elements. You know, if they're near the coast, thinking about the salt weather. So, they are very much geared up for extreme weather and dealing with that in the architecture of the houses.

37:36But I think in a, just in an almost intrinsic way. I remember asking an architect in Iceland about sustainability and, you know, the sort of eco aspects of the houses they were designing. And it was just so embedded in everything that they do. They said, well, to us, this is, it's just natural because, you know, we'll use hydro energy. We'll use green hydro energy or we'll use ground source heat pumps or something like this.

38:10We'll have a green roof. We'll have super insulation, kind of super glazing. So, you know, rather than thinking this is sort of any of these things, like completely green energy, renewable energy, any of these things are at all unusual. It's just completely embedded. And so is this, you know, way of dealing with extreme weather. What are the lessons that Scandinavia teaches the rest of the world about design and construction? I think one of the big lessons, I mean, I took from the project was the relationship between architecture and landscape, which I think was consistent right across all of the Nordic countries.

38:52Really, this sort of ingrained respect for the context, for nature, for the landscape and trying not to impose upon nature, upon the natural beauty of the setting, you know, that has attracted you to that place in the first instance. So, this ingrained respect for the natural surroundings, which I think we could all learn a lot from, and then using a lot of natural materials, you know, this sort of warm, warm modernism that is so.

39:25Do the Scandinavian architects still use concrete or have they moved away from that completely? There is sometimes some concrete. I mean, I think within the houses we were visiting, often that would be, you know, for the foundations, for the structure, but then there would be a lot of, that would be balanced with a lot of wood, a lot of natural materials, sort of softer elements. So, I think even in the contemporary architecture, you have this warmth, you have this texture, this kind of soft modernism or warm modernism that we all kind of think of when we think about mid-century.

39:59It's kind of still there, but just interpreted in a fresh way. Has 3D printing of houses hit Scandinavia yet? Not that I'm aware of. No, no. I think it's all very natural, all very, you know, thought through, all very thoughtful. Well, I would think they would be thoughtful about it if they did it. They would figure out a way to have a substance come out of those robotic machines that would be sustainable and beautiful and durable, right?

40:31Well, if anyone can do it, yeah, it'll be there. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. The book is The Iconic Nordic House, Modern Masterwork Since 1900. Thanks for joining me, Dominic. Thank you, George. Great to see you. I can't wait for your next book, which should be what? Tuesday?

40:48Yeah. I'll get back to you next week. Okay. All right. Take care. Thank you. We just heard George's conversation with Dominic Bradbury.

Architects of Illusion with Andy Cohen

40:59Andy Cohen has dyslexia, and he didn't read a book until 12th grade, yet he ended up writing two books. One was an Amazon bestseller. The other was translated into four languages. He's not just a professional magician. He's also a board member of the Society of American Magicians. Andy is the founder of the award-winning ad agency Exposed Brick and an adjunct professor at NYU and Duke. His presentation, Architects of Illusion, draws direct connections between mid-century modernism

41:32and sleight of hand, arguing that architects and magicians are essentially in the same business. Andy Cohen explained all of this to George Smart. Andy, you have a fascinating life. You're into magic, advertising, business strategy. You're a corporate consultant. Initially, you were going to be a psychologist, right? Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to be a psychologist. Yep. And how'd that work out for you? Well, I applied the psychology in a different way.

42:04I applied it to the world of advertising. Yeah. So I basically have had two careers, one in advertising, in which I worked in all different medias from retail at Macy's to packaged goods at a place called Dancer, and then direct response at Wonderman. And then I started my own agency, basically focusing on building brand at the same time generating immediate response. And I did that. We had great clients, American Express and Club Med and Clorox, and filled a niche. It was terrific. And then I went on to a second career, which was basically as a keynote speaker at large

42:39conferences and also as an executive educator working through universities like Duke, Cornell, NYU. And what was so fascinating is when I first started in the speaking part of the business, I figured people would hire me for my marketing expertise. But what happened was they began to come to me for innovation, leadership, areas of diversity, cybersecurity. And the reason was, is I was focusing on basically helping people shift their thinking, shift

43:11their perception, deal with change, think differently. And at the end of the day, make better decisions. So that's just a little about my background. Speaking for me is a hobby. So I look for venues in which I can speak. Sometimes I get paid. Sometimes I don't. That's not really my major motivation at this point. I have ideas. I like to express them. And one of them came up with Modernism Week. You were at Modernism Week to talk about the overlap between magic, because you're a magician,

43:46and modernism, because you live in a Quincy Jones house. So we all know that modernism is magic. We feel it when we walk in. But tell us more about that. Well, George, the way you just described it is actually the essence of my talk. My wife and I bought down in Country Club Estates, it's A. Quincy Jones, mid-century modern home with God historical designation. And when I got here, because magic has been a part of my life, my great uncle was a magician,

44:20I have incorporated magic into my professional career. And that is doing magic as an executive educator, doing magic as part of the lectures and so forth, as a way to engage people, to teach people the psychology of how they think, how they perceive, how they behave. And so when I got down here, I had this epiphany to do a talk called Mid-Century Modern Magicians. It just sounded right. And so I began to explore it, but I realized if I wanted to give the talk here in Palm Springs, especially at Modernism Week, it had to have some relevancy to the area and the location.

44:54So I began to explore the relationship between magic and Palm Springs and stuff came up. It was absolutely fascinating. Going back to the late 1800s, where the desert riders would go out into the desert. There's a group of people on horseback riding out in the desert and they'd bring a magician and actually a famous magician out there to entertain. And then there were all these different magicians that would come in at the dollhouse. It was an establishment for the celebrities. It was a very low-key, cool place in Palm Springs and a magician would pop up there.

45:27And then I saw this relationship like with Orson Welles and Cary Grant and all supporters of magicians. And then actually in your podcast, I discovered Christopher Jojesko, who used to be a kid in the 60s. He would come here from LA and he would go to people sitting around the pool, the Skylark Hotel, and he would get them to throw quarters into the pool and he would then get the quarters. And he's talking about this on your podcast. And he said, I use the critters to buy magic tricks. And I got excited because I figured, oh, there's a magic shop in Palm Springs.

46:00So I reached out to Christopher and he didn't remember. And then I went back to the online directory, phone book directory from 1950, 1955. And I found an ad for Humor Magic Shop. And it was right in downtown Palm Springs. And it was there probably for about 10 years. And the person, Jimmy Hume, who owned it with his wife, was a fascinating character in the world of magic and was a partner in the first magic shop in Disneyland.

46:31Disneyland hired a bunch of different people, young kids to work the counters. And they used to goof around, like put things like arrows through their head. And one of those teenagers working behind the counter was Steve Martin. And if you remember that famous picture of Steve Martin with the arrow set. And that's where it came from. So there was all these interesting relationships. And then you had icons like Sinatra. Well, Sinatra, when he first appeared at the Sands, the Desert Sands in Las Vegas, was opening magic act, was a magician, Jay Marshall.

47:04And then you had people like Dean Martin use Marvin Roy, Mr. Electric. Liberace used Channing Pollack. All of these icons used magicians in their opening acts. And all these icons were based in Palm Springs. But your point that you brought up initially, you said the emotional, the wow, the effect. When I was doing all this research, I realized I still was not making a connection to modernism. I was making a connection to Palm Springs and realized I was looking from a historic point

47:36of view. And then I pivoted and I began to look at the emotional point of view. What is the end game of magic? And I began to realize that magic and modernism share a very similar end game, generating a sense of awe, a sense of wonderment, almost looking around and saying, hey, this is impossible. How did they think of that? How did they do that? And so that led to a whole opening of exploration into that world of magic and modernism. And what'd you find out? It was really interesting.

48:06So I began to look at what is modernism and magic share together? And I just described that. And then I began to look at taking a magic trick from a performance point of view. So the magic we see on TV, not the magic voodoo. I mean, because they're different. Magic can be a belief system or whatever. This is performance magic. And in performance magic, you have a trick, which is the title of it. You have an effect. What's the major effect? You have the technique. How is it done? And then you have the performance. And so I looked at things like Houdini, the vanishing elephant.

48:38So if you'd say vanishing elephant to any magician, he'll know exactly what you're talking about. That's the name of the trick, the vanishing elephant. And in that, he would have a giant elephant on stage at the Hippodrone in New York City, 4,000 people attending. And they'd bring out a circus wagon. The elephant would get into the circus wagon. They would drop the front of the wagon, open it up, expose the inside. Nothing inside. The elephant is gone. So then I show another slide of a house from Philip Johnson.

49:08And I ask the audience, what's the name of this trick? And a couple of people look and then they'll say, the glass house. And then I say, okay, what is the effect of that trick? And they would say, oh, it vanishing, because that's what it does. It vanishes into the environment. And then we would show them more slides. I would show them at Donald Wexler, where you look at this house that he built in Palm Springs, him and his wife lived in. And you look at it and you can't tell where the inside and where the outside begins. It's everything vanishes, blends in together.

49:38So what I start doing is setting up these examples of magicians that do levitation, floating. Okay, well, what's the famous house if you think of floating? It's the Farnsworth house, right? Right. So I began to bring these together and I began to show different examples of vanishing, of floating, of penetration, of making houses look larger than they actually are, changing your perception. But I paralleled it with magic tricks. So that was the first part.

50:09But the second part was actually even more interesting, because I believe magic is a kind of a combination of you take a technology and you apply it in a dramatic way. And it's not my original thought. It really came from Arthur Clarke. He had a very famous quote around this. Yes, I believe. I love that quote. He believes that any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. That's exactly right. And think of all these things that we've had in the first iPod, you know, when you listen to the first iPod, it was magical, right?

50:41You know, but it was basically taking MP3 and applying it in a dramatic way. And so I give examples. One of the tricks I opened with in the very, very beginning, somebody imagines a deck of cards in a Ziploc bag. And I have them think of the one card and turn it over so that all the cards are face up. They imagine it and turn it over and then put everything back. Their eyes are closed the whole time. Yeah, they're imagining this. Yeah. I say, hold on to this.

51:12And they're holding a Ziploc bag that has a deck of cards in it. So I say, OK, now what I want you to do is tell us the card. I want everybody to hear what the card is. And they might say that seven of diamonds. And I say, would you do me a favor? Just open up the bag. And they open the bag up. And I say, take out the deck of cards. And they take out the deck of cards. And in front of everyone, I said, just give me the deck of cards. I open it up. I fan all the cards out. And there's only one card face down the deck. It's the seven diamonds. Yeah. And it blows everybody away.

51:43And as soon as I do that, I said, how many of you are thinking, how did I do that? And everyone raises their hand and laughs. And I said, would you like to know how I did it? And they said, yes. And I said, well, I did it very well. But then I introduced the Arthur Clarke quote. And I say, I've shortened it to basically technology and drama. And I say, remember that trick I did in the beginning? Well, the invisible deck is really a deck of cards that uses something else that is available in any hardware, arts, and crafts store.

52:14You can go in, you can purchase it. And you can make the invisible deck. It just takes ordinary technology, but applies it in a dramatic way. So then I say, OK, now let's take a look at what happened post-war. During the war, materials went to the war. But afterwards, there was an abundance of materials, particularly common material like glass and steel and aluminum and plywood. And I said, now think about this.

52:45You have these mid-century modern architects. And now they had the ability to use these products. Now, they could have used them in a number of ways, but they chose to use them in a dramatic way. And so you had the Ames plywood chair, and you had floating staircases. You had twin palms, floating roofs. I mean, these people, they took these ordinary materials, and they implied it in a dramatic way. And the result was magic, which is what you said in the very beginning. That is a really great comparison.

53:18And I can tell from your videos that you're very entertaining, and that you're a very strong presenter. So it's no surprise that you're doing these corporate engagements all over the place and bringing some inspiration as well as entertainment to the audiences. Well, thank you. Now, you live in a Quincy Jones house. What's the most magical component in there, the thing you point to and go, that is just fantastic? So when we first pulled up to in front of our home, the curbside appeal was nothing special.

53:49Yeah. I was a little disappointed. I later found out that A. Quincy Jones, I think, intentionally did this to play down the curbside appeal because behind our house is a mountain, and it's magnificent. So when you drive up, your eye goes to the mountain. He wanted the mountain to be the hero of when you first come up, and it is. It does. It really does work. Then you come into a hallway, a little walkway.

54:20Now, I want to explain something. Magic is made often by what's called tension and release. And when there's a release, there's a good feeling. It's a positive. A joy. So then I started thinking about Frank Lloyd Wright, compression and release, where Wright would put you in a very almost claustrophobic entryway, and it would lead to a giant hallway. There's a sense of drama and a sense of awe. It was all staged. It was beautifully created.

54:50Well, in A. Quincy Jones' home where we live, you come through a walkway, and then you come into a very modest eight-foot-high ceiling hallway, nothing special. But when you turn the corner, you're faced with this incredible 11-foot ceiling, claristory windows, giant view of the mountain. Wow. So that, to me, is one of the highlights of what A. Quincy Jones has done, that sense of compression and release.

55:20I think it's absolutely, absolutely brilliant. Well, this is fascinating, Andy. Thank you so much for talking with me. Sure. Anytime. Thank you for having me on. That was George's conversation with Andy Cohen.

Jazz Pianist Steve Holt

55:36Our musical guest, Steve Holt, started playing piano at the age of four, was performing in Montreal clubs at 18, and only took a break for a decade when he became an equity analyst in Toronto. Born in Montreal, he graduated from McGill University. Go Redbirds! His 1983 debut, The Lion's Eyes, earned international acclaim and a Juno nomination right out of the gate. Impact, released in 2025 with his new ensemble, is his first album as leader and composer in

56:0720 years, and it just earned him another Juno nomination. Here's George's conversation with Steve Holt. Steve, before we talk about your music, let's talk about the stock market. You've been an equity analyst. What advice do you give friends and family about today's crazy global financial environment and what they should do to try to stay at par with inflation or, God knows, even prosper in this environment? Well, I'm sorry to disappoint you on that, but I left that business quite a long time

56:39ago. And when I say left, I mean I just really exited. I have very little to do with it. It was a huge part of my life for a very long time. I was an equity analyst on Bay Street, which is the Wall Street equivalent here in Canada. But that's long gone. So I'm afraid I can't help you. Well, you've got to have some intuitive sense as being an ex-analyst, right? The typical intuitive sense, not even intuitive, it's just kind of these are the facts. If you've already heard about it, then the market's already discounted the whole thing.

57:15Once it's in the paper, once there's an article, once somebody writes about it, the market is more than discounted, whatever that is. Okay. So I guess we have to be like these U.S. congressmen who get the advanced inside information early and are making so much money. No, you just have to do some of your own research. I'm afraid you have to rely to some degree on analysts like I used to be, because when I did that, we were basically creating the news that you would read. Yeah. So we would be looking at the numbers as soon as they come out.

57:45We obviously had the insight, we would hope, the IQ and the experience to interpret the numbers. We also would meet with management, go see factories, watch machines go up and down and make sure that stuff wasn't spreading out of the side, it wasn't supposed to. Stuff like that, that's what analysts do. And of course, we do valuation. So I mean, even if it's a great story, if it's already discounted, then the stock is too expensive, even if it's a fabulous story. There's something called efficient market theory. And efficient market theory is kind of what we've been discussing, which means that if you

58:18see it in the paper, it's already discounted. So this, there was a professor of efficient market theory, and he was walking on the grounds of the university with one of his students. And the student, as they're walking and they're chatting, the student looked down on the ground and saw a $20 bill. He thought, oh, great. So he bent down to pick it up and the professor goes, what are you doing? And the student goes, well, I'm going to pick up this $20 bill that's on the ground. And the professor goes, man, have you not learned anything I taught you? If that $20 bill was really there, someone would have picked it up already.

58:51I like that. Now, when you were an analyst, this was sort of a period in between different musical sections of your career, because you learned music quite early. Like what, at four? I was playing at four. Let's put it that way. I was playing the piano at four. But no, I would say what happened in my life was I was a musician first. I did my degree in jazz performance at McGill University in Montreal, where I was born. I was performing. I was very full-time in music in my 20s, mid-20s, late 20s, early 30s.

59:23The stock market and being an equity analyst came after that. And I became very deeply involved, but I never left the music. So I was doing both at the same time, especially in the thick of it. Like when I would sign with a new company, part of my contract was I had to be allowed a certain amount of time to pursue my musical career. That was built into my contract as an analyst. Yeah. So it never left me. I was performing all the time. I was still recording. And it was like kind of compartmentalized, I guess you could say.

59:55Okay. And you've got a new album out. It's called Impact. Yes. Came out last year. And has it been nominated for some awards? It actually won a couple of silver medals at the Global Music Awards. And then more importantly, I was nominated for the Juno. I mean, Juno's is the same in Canada as the Grammys would be in the U.S. So to be nominated is a really huge deal. I was absolutely blown away when that happened. This is my first album in 20 years. So that's a remarkable accomplishment.

1:00:27Boom. Right to Juno. It is. Yeah. It really makes it a difference. Like I was still performing. I was doing concerts and gigs and stuff, but I never recorded a new album. And this was last year. I finally wrote some new material. I had nice compositions. I had a great band. We put out the album. And here I am 20 years after the fact. And we got nominated. And it was just a pretty big surprise. Let's hear the title track from the album called Impact.

1:01:20That's a pretty big surprise.

1:01:50Thank you. Thank you.

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1:05:50I don't think Americans appreciate the Canadian jazz scene. Of course, we don't appreciate Canada much at all lately. We've been kind of bad about that.

1:06:20But particularly the jazz scene. And there's so much of it. I mean, just from that Montreal to Toronto corridor and other places, it's incredible. The more I learn about it, the more I'm just fascinated. Well, when I was growing up in the 70s, we had a club, we had a club, we had a lot of clubs. It was a very, very, very lively jazz scene in Montreal at the time, particularly. And I got to play with some of the great musicians, and I got to play with some of the great musicians of our time, including people like Archie Schapp, Larry Coriel, who I did record one of his tunes on this latest album, James Moody.

1:06:58You know, these are the greatest legends of the time. They were coming through Montreal, and we were part of the rhythm section put together to play with them. So, yeah, it was an incredible time in the 70s. It still is. I moved to Toronto in the 80s. There's tons of great jazz players in this country, for sure. Let's hear another song from the new album. This one is called Second Voyage. Did you write this one? I did, yeah. I wrote both of those.

1:07:37Second Voyage. I wrote both of those, and I mean, I did, yeah. I지를ationMedia. Thank you.

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