#462/Patrik Schumacher + Elias Tabache + Musical Guest Karrin Alyson

Welcome to U.S. Modernist Radio

0:00Hello, this is Christian Johansson. I'm an architect and the son of John Johansson. You are listening to U.S. Modernist Radio. Mama don't allow no architecture around here. Mama don't allow no architecture around here. Oh, I don't care what mama don't allow, gonna draw my modern anyhow. Mama don't allow no architecture around here. Welcome to U.S. Modernist Radio, where we talk and laugh with people who enjoy, own, create, dream about, preserve, love, and hate modernist architecture, the most exciting and controversial buildings in the world.

0:39I'm Tom Geild. On today's episode, we've got international architect Patrick Schumacher. He's the CEO of Zaha Hadid Architects. Then, Elias Tabachi shares beautifully shot house videos of his open space platform. And later, it's our musical guest, Corinne Allison.

1:04And now, here is your host, the monk of modernism, Brother George Smart.

Running modernism archives like monks

1:11Thanks, Brother Tom. In running U.S. Modernist archives, which is how I spend my solitary days, there are many parallels to those robed monks of the past, working in their scriptoriums, preserving the ancient scrolls, with a few casks of wine in the basement. Our intrepid staff and volunteers are like those monks, just with martinis and the Internet. Here's how monks and U.S. Modernist compare. Number one, both are rescue operations against active loss.

1:44Around the year 1200, monks weren't preserving text in a stable world. They were copying works that existed in maybe one or two crumbling codexes, often in languages fewer and fewer people read, while the originals decayed from use, fire, mold, and neglect. U.S. Modernist is doing the same thing, with photos that fade, with Kodachrome slides that delaminate, and the architects themselves dying, taking institutional memory with them. We are all racing decay.

2:17Number two, both digitize in the given technology of their era. A scriptorium took a fragile, singular object, like a codex, and turned it into a more durable, more reproducible form. U.S. Modernist takes fragile analog photos, documents, and magazines, and converts them to a more durable, infinitely reproducible form. The medium changed. The strategy is identical. Number three, both create something larger than the parts.

2:48A monastery library wasn't just preserving individual books. It was assembling a body of work that scholars could consult in one place. Before that aggregation, knowledge sat scattered across the Mediterranean in private collections or churches that no one could access. Individual estates and university special collections existed before, but you couldn't search among them. Our aggregation is the contribution. Number four, both run on devotion, not commerce.

3:21The monks operated on a vow-driven, mission-driven economic model. Labor priced near zero because the work was understood as sacred. U.S. Modernist runs on volunteer labor, donations, and obsessive enthusiasm. Neither model makes sense as a business. Ain't that the truth. Number five, both democratize access. Prescriptorium, text circulated among a tiny clerical and aristocratic class. Monasteries didn't offer open access, but they massively expanded who could encounter Aristotle or Augustine.

3:58U.S. Modernist takes architecture that lived inside AIA journals, $200 monographs, and architecture school libraries, and makes it available to anyone with a browser.

4:11Monasteries preserved Greek and Roman texts through centuries when those texts were politically and theologically suspect. Right now, with federal policy actively pushing classicism, and a cultural mood that treats modernism as ugly or obsolete, U.S. Modernist is keeping the record intact through a hostile period. If modernist houses get torn down at scale over the next 20 years, the documentation at U.S. Modernist may be all that's left. U.S. Modernist Radio is underwritten by the Brent R. Harris Charitable Trust,

4:46restorer of Richard Neutra's Kauffman Desert House in Palm Springs, and six other houses in California. By the E. Faye Jones Conservancy, preserving the legacy of modernist architecture in northwest Arkansas. EFayeJonesConservancy.org. And by Diane Bald and the Budman family, restoring significant architecture in Toronto, Los Angeles, Malibu, and Palm Springs.

Interview with architect Patrick Schumacher

5:14Patrick Schumacher joined Zaha Hadid Architects in 1988 and co-designed just about every major project, from the Olympic Aquatic Center in London to Beijing-Dashing International Airport. He was Zaha Hadid's right-hand man, and since her death in 2016, he's led the firm. He likes to stir things up with statements and political views that have drawn both fierce criticism and support. Here's George's conversation with Patrick Schumacher.

5:45Patrick, when people look at your firm's work, just the average person, they would use terms like curvy or swoopy. But you have a special word for it, starts with a P. Maybe you could explain what that is? Yes, I call it parametricism. Okay. The word is the derivative of the phrase parameter. We design systems, geometries, which have many parameters, which interlink, they're connected up,

6:16they respond to each other, as well as to external elements we introduce into the systems. And that makes it quite organic and quite curvy and swoopy, because you have to think of it as a very flexible geometry, made out of elastic material. And when something comes close, or something is moving inside, things bulge and twist and adapt. So, how is that different from a regular building that's more square?

6:47Because you have to adapt that to a client's use. Yes. So, our style allows us to adapt more pliantly to topography, for instance. Okay. So, we can easily mediate across levels, but if you're in, let's say, landscape, the topography lines, they're following trajectories, and we can just trace them and work with them and build on them. Or the site might have irregular boundaries in an urban environment.

7:18So, our building adapts to that and maximizes the footprint, for instance. And if there's a tree, we can swoop around that tree and let that stand. So, we're very pliant, very flexible, elastic to adapt to the contingencies of site, also of internal arrangements, which are not always lining up in the grid, if you want to optimize them, for instance. So, what does having this curvy design on the inside allow for that a conventional building doesn't?

7:53It allows for introducing different directions. You can walk across diagonally and then continue, perhaps. We also do that in section, meaning between levels, we're opening up vistas. So, we often like buildings which have an open flow of movement and views. To bring things together visually and not hide things from each other. And that also makes sense with a modern house, I believe. Because you can, for instance, if there's a courtyard in it, there will be glass on all sides so you can see right through it.

8:29The staircase often is nicer if you kind of make a nice trajectory. Maybe it's more compact this way. So, it is just more flexible. In nature, you find rarely that things are diagonally lined up or based on repetitive modules, for instance, which are of equal size. These kind of modernist features of regularity, modularity, they are due to that industrial age where it was easier to build and fabricate if you repeat elements.

Early projects and the Daronian house

9:04Now, speaking of houses, the first house that I could find that your firm did was actually a bathroom renovation for Craig Robbins in 1997 in Miami. How did that project come about? That's right. Craig was a close friend of Zaha's. And Zaha and myself, we often traveled to Miami. We made friends there. We met him there. We also did an installation in the design district for him. So, I don't know exactly how it came about with the bathroom, but we've just been looking at it recently because I think the house is being sold.

9:38And he wants to sell the house, but he doesn't want to sell the bathroom. Well, I wouldn't either. We need to extract it. We need to extract it. If you go online to usmarnis.org slash Hadid, you can see a photo of this bathroom. And it is really incredible. It looks like one big molded piece. Is that right? Yes. That's the way we also like to work. We like to have surface continuity across different materials. I mean, a bit like a car designer.

10:09It's like, you know, enjoying to have things continue and be seamless. So, seamlessness is one of our big headlines, if you like. And then later on, the firm worked to build a house called the California Residence in La Jolla, which is really gorgeous. And I never quite understood why the area came up in such resistance to this house. Well, I'm not sure either.

10:37I guess the clients also wanted to be quite secluded. Maybe that was an issue. I don't know. Okay. I tell you, we have a portfolio full of houses, which didn't happen. We managed to create one in Moscow. The Daronian house. Yes. That's pretty spectacular. Yeah, I think that's a true James Bond kind of dream house. In the lineage of kind of John Lautner, etc. Now, this was a house for Vladislav Daronian and Naomi Campbell, I believe, at the time, right?

11:09Yeah, yeah. Naomi was his girlfriend at the time when we were working on that. Yes. And I understand that the swimming pool converted to a dance floor? Yes, there's a clubbing area. There's a beautiful studio. I mean, and he is very physical. So there's this kind of banya, which is a kind of Russian version of a sauna. But the most important thing is what we decided early on. First of all, the house sits in the forest and the floor of the forest is sloping.

11:39So the house kind of plays with that terracing or sloping and cuts into the slope. But then we pulled up and pulled out the bedrooms on a massive kind of staircase shaft to bring the bedrooms above the tree canopies so that you have suddenly a view opening up. So on the lower part, the larger part of the house, you're in the forest. You take the elevator or staircase up to your bedrooms and voila, the view opens up and you can see across the whole forest.

12:13And when Patrick says, you know, a level up, this is just not like one story. This is what, 40 feet up? This is quite a few. Yeah, this is maybe 12, 15 meters up. Yeah, it's way, it's like a tower. Well, that's right, because these trees are not small. I thought it was thrilling to do that. And there's fantastic photos of Vladislav on his cantilever terrace, drawing the view into the distance. Do you have any houses on the boards now?

12:43Yes, we have so many. And I tell you, in Europe, in the Middle East, in the US, et cetera. So at the moment, I have a number of houses. And are any of them going to be completed in 26? 26 now. Okay, so for the future. This is on the drawing boards.

Mies van der Rohe and early inspirations

13:03Now, Patrick, how long have you been with the firm? It's a long time. Yeah, I started as a student. I was 25 in 1988. So I've known nothing else. And it's been a fantastic ride, I tell you. So we were five people and now we're over 500. Wow. Now, I read somewhere that Zaha had nicknames for you. Potato and Cappuccino. Is that right? Yes, that's absolutely right. Fluffy was also, you know, Cappuccino turned into Fluffy.

13:35Okay. She had nice nicknames for many other people as well. Okay. That was her thing, to endear people and to also shortcut tongue twisters into easy phrases. Now, how did you get Potato and Cappuccino and Fluffy? Was there a story behind any of those? Potato is just, you know, I'm German. My name is Patrick. That's maybe enough of a rationale to deliver a potato. But I do like potatoes too. So she also noticed that I'm eating potatoes.

14:06Okay. And, you know, Fluffy just comes out of Cappuccino because you have fluffed milk on the Cappuccino. Of course. Yeah. I'm sure she would have had one for you as well. I'm sure. I would have loved to get a nickname by Zaha. That would have been fabulous. She had one for everybody. Now, you grew up in Germany. How did you discover architecture and decide it was going to be your life's work? Well, there were two aspects to this. First of all, my father had bought a site and built a house, I mean, as a client in a new area,

14:43which was developing with large gardens and villas. But when I was eight, nine years old, he extended the house because we were six children at home with the nanny and so on. My mother had her medical practice inside the house. So we needed to extend the house. And that's where I learned about architecture and drawings and the architect. And he was a very elegant and cool character. So that impressed me. He came with a very nice, sleek car. So I thought, that's impressive.

15:14That was the first impression. Architects are cool guys with cool cars. But truly what fascinated me was as a young student in grammar school, in the art classes, I came across the work of Mies van der Rohe, in particular the Barcelona Pavilion, which was built in 1929, but looked incredible contemporary or futuristic still, when I looked at it, let's say around 1970.

15:45There were some beautiful photographs, all black and white, from the time. And I thought this was very wonderful. So I also then looked a bit more into the work of Mies van der Rohe. He had just at a time just about finishing the National Gallery in Berlin, which is fantastic. Huge, steel roof, cantilevering in all directions, hung on a few columns. Beautiful, beautiful building. So that's what I got into. And then there was a film on television about the work of Mies van der Rohe, also his Chicago

16:18work, the fabulous Farnsworth House, etc. So that was a very strong impression. Modernism, and it had to be modernism. Some of the films I loved, particularly memorable, Jean-Paul Malmondo in a movie which played in Brazil, Oscar Niemeyer's Brasilia, was a big impression on me, too. So that kind of catalyzed my interest. Well, those are great inspirations to have. How does that transition into this parametricism? Because they're definitely not curvy buildings.

16:51Well, actually, Niemeyer was somebody who pioneered these kind of more free compositions, where he's also used a lot of curves. He used arcs and straight lines, but the arcs were, you know, segments and then moving to straight and turn the other direction. And that was a passion which Zaha had, too. So I discovered as a young student, the work of Oscar Niemeyer, and so did Zaha. So that was something we absolutely shared when I joined her studio. So there are some precedents of what we developed, maybe with more subtlety and better tools.

17:27So the curves we're using are not arcs, but they're continuously changing radii. So they're more like whiplashes and so-called splines, like the curves you use in shipbuilding. When you bend an elastic stick across holes, you get these kind of curves which are more organic. Those are the ones which we fell in love with and we also used in three dimensions, not only in two dimensions.

18:00Now, a lot of people know your firm's work, but they don't know how Zaha passed away. I understand it was unexpected when she went in the hospital for something else. Yes, that was right. And actually, she felt sick in New York, but we had planned to go to Miami. We went there, but then she got worse, and she went to the hospital in Miami. And she had a heart attack, I believe, right? That's right. That's right, yeah. And that was 10 years ago this year. Yes, end of March, 10 years ago.

18:32And we actually will host a kind of, how should I call it, memorial event where friends and family and colleagues from the office, etc., we come together in one of our buildings in Hyde Park and share memories and a meal. That sounds great. That sounds great. To think back, yeah. To think back. And we're celebrating Zaha's birthday every year.

Urban planning and libertarian views

18:56You have been sort of an architectural philosopher as well. You've written about architectural theory. You've talked about how to respond to organizing space and society and the economies. But you said one time that you've been depicted as this kind of villain. What is that all about? Well, I believe in more degrees of freedom. For us as architects, it's very important to really innovate the build environment and play out our creativity together with clients, of course.

19:31So both the client as the owner and the architect should have more degrees of freedom than we usually enjoy currently, particularly in Europe, where the, let's say, planning regime is over-politicized and over-controlled. And it makes it very difficult to develop the build environment in an open way. This is also, I think, the land use prescriptions are very tight. But then also, this goes way beyond technical building regulations.

20:04It's just politicians controlling development and making everything very modest and inconspicuous. So nobody gets noticed that something new comes in. Maybe nobody gets upset. So that's where I'm kind of a libertarian. I think in America, there's more people who share my sensibilities than in good old Europe. So are these planning groups and so forth restricting the creativity of your firm in putting together a remarkable building with a client?

20:40Yes, I think that is increasingly so in the United Kingdom. And it also delays many projects or prevents altogether. There's this kind of NIMBY, it's not in backyard mentality.

20:55And yeah, so as a libertarian, I have an unusual stance. Most of my profession are more kind of left-leaning, left-oriented. I think this has partly to do with the history, the great heroes of modern architecture, which we still refer to. So they grew up in Europe, for sure, in an era where you had more publicly funded and publicly controlled development. And there was a time when this was actually quite innovative and forward-looking. So there was a sense that the private client is less important or has maybe dodgy commercial aims and we should rely on the public.

21:37I mean, we love public buildings as well, don't get me wrong. But the mentality in the profession is relatively left-leaning in this way and statist, if you like, and trust in the necessity of planning to have everything under control and orderly. And there's a lot of suspicion about private clients, entrepreneurship in my profession. And I stand out. I'm kind of pro-freedom, pro-capitalist. Okay. Well, is the main resistance the look of the building in an area?

22:11Do they want the buildings to look all the same? Is that the idea where everything fits in? That's part of it, yes. But there's also the sense that, let's say, community engagement, you have to bring the community along. And it is treated as if it was everybody's business in a certain neighborhood, whether something gets built or added to the community or to the area or not. And that could be quite a large distance where I believe it does actually not affect people. But if you ask them and they don't have the time and energy to look more closely at the proposals, you quite quickly and easily get a no.

22:49So once you've gone down this route of saying that's the business of you have to kind of democratically engage and involve and convince neighbors, not only immediate neighbors, by the way, the larger kind of borough community in a city is broken up into these districts or boroughs. Because you make it a political issue and you make it an issue of consultation, difficulty comes in and you end up with the lowest common denominator, which often is, well, maybe not to build is safer and upsets less people than trying to push through a building.

23:26So that's the way I see it.

23:57Ruffles some feathers, but it's difficult. I bet it is because the decision process is really expanded over a much bigger group of people in that scenario. That's right. So-called many stakeholders. But to be quite honest, I don't think it's really relevant. First of all, yes, once you open something up, there will be those who have a lot of time on their hands who get interested. But most people don't really pay so much attention. Even for local elections, there isn't that much participation.

24:31And when I see some of these, I usually don't have the time and energy to pay a lot of attention and get involved. You know, once you invite people like this, there will be those who will get involved. They'll probably say no. So that's the tendency which I have observed here. And we have, unfortunately, a number of projects from myself, from ourselves, from colleagues, which get endlessly delayed or are abandoned altogether, finally, from the developers. Because if the permission is not coming forward or you have to kind of make endless changes, then the market conditions might shift.

25:05For instance, COVID came along. After six years of having something and planning finally was agreed. COVID comes along. It is not happening. Yeah. Anyway, so it could have been built by then. And this obviously is feeding into a crisis in a sense because people need to live and concentrate in metropolis like London. And that's where the work is, but the career development chances are people pushing in, but there's not enough new supply. And then prices are rising to an extent that it hurts.

25:39It really hurts most people here. The part of their income you should have to spend on accommodation has grown a lot so that the overall living standard is actually dropping. One thing I've noticed is that when a group, a client, an architect wants to come in and put affordable housing in an area, there's tremendous resistance. Or if an architect or a client wants to come in and put a landmark marquee building in an area, there's tremendous resistance.

26:10Yes. My point is there should be an overall plan. If you work with the parameters, you should just be allowed to do anything as long as it's within the envelope. I understand there needs to be some kind of complementarity between infrastructure provision, street network, facilities, and the overall build-out. I mean, that's just rational. But there shouldn't be this big political discretionary element in my view. So, yes, you get oftentimes neighbors, I don't know how the great modernists managed to overcome that, where you kind of step out of line and land a spaceship in the middle of an unassuming cluster of houses.

26:54I would be excited, but some people get upset. But I don't think there should have a voice in this, necessarily. I don't know how it is in the UK or elsewhere, but in the United States, many cities have some sort of master plan in place where they've designated which areas should be developed, which areas they want more investment in, things like that. And developers come in thinking that that's all they have to meet, all the requirements they have to meet for that. And then they find out they have to go through the same long approval process as everybody else.

27:28Yes, I think we have such plans here. I'm a member of the Libertarian Party here, and I've been tasked with writing the urban development policy, where I make this point that it should be, as you suggest, as long as you're within the plan, there should be no further, there should be just this quick administrative check and no further decision process. And we need to trust those owners and investors to create something which generates the highest value for that location.

28:02That's only in their own best interest. That will benefit end users. And that's what they're trying to do in California and Pacific Palisades and Altadena in recovering from the fire. They have put in these processes to streamline the long decision periods, but they're finding out that even with these streamlined things, it's taking a long time to get things done. Yes, that's contemporary world. Okay. Yeah, I mean, if you've been preaching democracy on that level for too long, then it's going to be hard to unwind that.

28:38But I think it would be in everybody's best interest if it could be unwound.

Competitions and new typologies

28:42Let's shift to another subject. Your firm enters competitions all the time around the world for big projects, right? Yes. How many competitions would you say you enter in in a year? Oh, gosh, yeah. I mean, I would say we're probably entering 50. Okay. I don't think people realize what it costs your firm to enter a competition. Could you share sort of ballpark what that is? Yes. So sometimes there is some compensation, but not always covering the cost.

29:16I would say anything between, let's say in dollar terms, around $100,000 as an average is our investment. I would say an average covered maybe a third or up to a half. In some jurisdictions, like in China, it used to be they're covering more. They're covering nearly the whole thing and similarly for a while in Saudi Arabia. But these patterns have shifted away from being fully covered. So, yeah, we have to usually put at least another $50,000 in on top of what we might receive as a compensation.

29:51Sometimes we get less and sometimes over $100,000 which we put in on top because we have to develop for a number of weeks many options and develop the plans. And the submission is really like a photo-realistic set of renderings and videos and fly-throughs, sometimes even explanatory video. So quite, quite intensive package. And when we submit, it really looks as if it was nearly already built. So it becomes very tangible and very easy for clients to grasp and understand what they're getting.

30:24So by the time, it usually takes about, I would say, six weeks on average, sometimes a bit faster, four to eight weeks maybe. You really got the essence nailed. And when you then three, four, five years later compare the final result with these initial sketches, you say, yes, that's what it is. It's very close. I mean, we've had enormous productivity kind of boosting skill building and tool building and capacity building over the last 20, 30 years.

30:55So we can allow clients to make very kind of sound decisions. Are there any projects or project types, Patrick, that you haven't designed yet that you want to? Let's say the health sector hospitals. We've been trying many times and it's a highly specialist area, but also more and more, there's an interest in making the environment stimulating and pleasant, comforting, and not just a technical machine. So there has been the interest in hospitals to have more of an architectural flavor.

31:29So we finally got in there in a few competitions. Of course, we have to work together with highly specialist technical hospital planners. So we finally broke through and we won a competition for a big new hospital in Milan, Italy. So that is the latest. And I don't think there's any major typology then thereafter left. We got into airports in recent years, which was also a major breakthrough. And now we are one of the top airport designers on the planet.

31:59Well, that's exciting. If I become ill, I would love to stay in a hospital designed by your firm. I would think that would be an immediate plus. Yes, I think so. Patrick, thank you so much for talking with me. This has been really wonderful. I appreciate your time. Thanks for having me and thank you for your interest in my person and Zahadi Architects. That was George's conversation with Patrick Schumacher.

Interview with filmmaker Elias Tebache

32:25Originally from Chile, Elias Tebache came into architecture through the legacy of his hero, photographer Julius Schulman. In 2019, he and filmmaker Mick Ory co-founded Open Space, a California-based production company dedicated to documenting architecturally significant homes. They filmed residences by Richard Neutra, Frank Lloyd Wright, Edward Killingsworth, and Rudolf Schindler, telling stories not just of the buildings, but of the people who live in them, love them, and fight to keep them standing.

33:00Here's Elias Tebache's conversation with George Smart. I have been a fan of open space films for years. These are immaculate productions on the houses that we all love, the ones that we're crazy about. Somewhat in Los Angeles, but just all over the place. Elias, thank you so much for being with me. Thank you for having me. I'm a big fan of what you guys do, so this is a privilege. How did you guys start this? Was this a pandemic project? Was this just like one day, hey, let's go make a movie?

33:34You know, how did it start? Yeah, I've had a big passion for architecture since I was little. I studied architecture in college, did not finish, and then got into some marketing, then got into real estate. And then in 2019, I wanted to push this project. I had this vision of doing these videos, showcasing the architecture, the people that live in them, share the story, and preserve the history that we have. But I don't know any videography.

34:05I know how to photograph decently. And I got introduced to my partner, Mick. Mick, you know, he was doing videography for a company called Modernica. I got introduced to him, told him the pitch. We did our first video, and it was like everything that I wanted and more. And after that, it was just like, let's go. Let's do this. And that was 2019, end of 2019. And then 2020 rolled around. We had a nice pandemic, and everyone that we had lined up literally said, no way, we can't do this anymore.

34:38But there was a few people in 2020 that really allowed us in and opened up their homes when the time was just awful and kind of went from there. And we've been doing it since 2019. 2019, we did one video, and now we are doing about two a month. What was the first house? The first house was, his name is actually Nate Pohl. He's actually a realtor in like the Long Beach, LA area. And it was an Edward Killingsworth, Ed Killingsworth house.

35:10It was phenomenal. I wish we can go and reshoot it again just because our style is a little bit different and we can really tell a bigger story. But yeah, it was an Ed Killingsworth house. And how many have you done now total approximately? Ah, that's a good question. I want to say that we are at 68. We're about to really 69 on Friday or Saturday of this week. And what's that going to be? Which house? That one's going to be the William Fletcher house in Portland, Oregon. So we went up to Portland this past year and we were able to document five different homes by incredibly noted architects in their own right.

35:50But just not a lot of people know about them because they're in the, you know, up in the bay. And yeah, the Fletcher house is a colorful house. It's beautiful. It's beautiful. It's in the woods. And it's just everything that you would think that a Portland architectural house would be. It's going to be phenomenal. Well, one of the things I got to say is that the quality of photography and the way you use the light in these houses is really extraordinary. Oh, thanks. Yeah. I mean, we're there all day for a shoot.

36:21It's literally an all day process. We are there from sunrise to sunset just so then we can kind of move around the house throughout the natural light that moves through. We don't bring in lighting. We don't do any of the fancy stuff. We're not a big production. It's literally just me and Mick. He's doing the video while I'm just running around doing the photography. And yeah, it's such a lovely experience to be able to meet all these people that are so passionate about this too. And you've been to Michigan, Palm Springs, Illinois.

36:54Where else? Connecticut, upstate New York, Arizona. Yeah, Michigan, Michigan City, Indiana for the Frost House. Little hole in the wall town that's so incredible. And we have some other big plans for this year too for some traveling to, I think, Salt Lake City. I think we're going to Pennsylvania again, Boston, and then we're going back to Connecticut. So we got some plans and some really, really great architecture and stories to be told.

Bootstrapping Open Space films

37:26So did you win the lottery? How are you funding all this? This is an expensive endeavor. No, we, so this was bootstrapped. This was in the beginning. So 2019 up until like 2024, we were paying out of pocket for all of it. Okay. You know, at that point in time, we were just trying to get into as many homes as we could and tell the story. And yeah, we would just pay out of pocket. It's a big passion project. We don't fundraise.

37:56We don't do any of that stuff for LLC. And I think it was 2024, 2025 was when we started making a little bit of money off of YouTube AdSense. Oh, yeah. So that's what's really funding the project now. That's, we're not taking any home. We still have full-time jobs. So this is in all essence, a passion project that is able to fund itself. Now, yeah, the money that we make, we just put into the travels, the documenting, the equipment. And obviously, we have to pay some people for like the sound, the music that we put into the videos and stuff like that.

38:33But overall, it just pays for itself. And we're super excited to just keep documenting. So what are your unicorns at the moment? What are the houses that you're really going for to shoot? Yeah. Funny enough, in 2019, we said we can retire if we do falling water. And we did falling water last year. We were there and we got the whole day to ourselves. And that was really like the unicorn house. But, you know, I think just looking at everything in general, like we'd love to tell the story of the stall house.

39:09Original family, before it trades hands, you know, it's for sale now. So we'd love to capture it with the essence of the original family. The Eames house, so we're talking with them as well. And we'd love to tell that story. But really what gets us like really moving is those small architects that no one knows about. Me too. Yeah. The neighborhoods that you just are like, what? What are you talking about? There's nothing there, you know? And they're like, look at this neighborhood. Look at these architects. Look at these houses.

39:40And it's a constant wow moment whenever we get emails or DMs through Instagram of people like, have you seen this neighborhood? Have you heard of this architect? Those are the stories that we want to tell. So no unicorn houses aside from just being able to document the small architects that we just want to give them a little platform. Who are some of the lesser known architects that you've discovered recently that you're in love with? When we went up to Portland, I didn't know any of these architects.

40:10Like William Fletcher, he did amazing work. Same with Peter Bellucci. These architects up there, I had no clue about. I mean, I'm so... I'm in LA. So it's like we hear the Neutras, the Lautners, the Frank Lloyd Wrights, the Schindlers. But there are these iconic architects in these small towns. Not small towns, but they just you don't know about. You don't hear about. And those are the people that I think I fell in love with last year. With the architects up north in Portland.

40:41Such beautiful work. Such timeless work. And there's some smaller architects in Chicago. We came back from Chicago last year. We did the Farnsworth house and all of that. And... And Dart, right? You found the Dart house. Yes. Yeah, yeah. We had so many houses up there. Man, Chicago. Yeah, I'm just drawing a blank. I think I'm just so excited to be on here that I'm like, what?

41:08I'm truly in awe. And I think these smaller architects, like we just got a message. I just bought a book when we came back from Chicago and this lady emailed us. And she's like, were you here? Did you visit these spaces? And I was like, I didn't even know about it. And just incredible stuff. But just like anyone else, I want to tell the stories of these people that you don't know about, that you haven't heard about. And all of these videos are on YouTube, right? Yep, that's correct. Are they anywhere else?

41:39No, I mean, we have our website, you know, that we kind of put the photography and then the video together in a post, you know, kind of like a blog post. But everything really, we built this off of YouTube. Okay. We'll do like shortcuts and edits and photography on Instagram. But really, our audience is on YouTube. Watching these videos is an amazing way to spend an evening because the quality of the photography is so good. What I like to do is to patch it into my TV.

42:10Oh, yeah. So I've got a really big screen and then watch this. It's like watching, you know, a high-quality documentary, really, of a house as you explore it. Yeah. Mick, my partner, does an incredible job just capturing the space, the light, and being able to tell the story from the interviews that we do. Because, you know, we sit down, we do this interview with the owners, and I'm the one that chops up the interview for him, gives him the timestamps. So I'm listening to it.

42:40I'm giving him the notes of, like, what's here and there. And sometimes I'm listening to these interviews, and everyone's great. No one's a professional here, right? No one's a professional interviewee. But the way that he pulls everything together to tell this lovely story, I'm like, how do you even do that? You know, it's just incredible. And we wouldn't be able to do it without the people, the owners, and the stewards of these homes that allow us in their space. The series is Open Space on YouTube. Thanks, Elias.

43:11Thank you. That was George with Elias Tabachi. Karin Allison went to college on a classical piano scholarship, grew up on a diet of Joni Mitchell and Broadway cast recordings, and didn't find jazz until her university years in Nebraska. Five Grammy nominations later, she sings in five languages, moves between bossa nova, bebop, blues, and folk, and teaches jazz voice at the Hart School of Music. The New York Times calls her a singer with a feline touch.

43:43Meow. Here's George's conversation with Karin Allison.

Interview with jazz musician Karin Allison

43:48Karin, I was thrilled to read that you've been nominated for five Grammy Awards. That is amazing. It's very much an honor. I don't know how that happened, George, especially five times in a row. I feel so honored, and I enjoy the process, most of it. It's a very long day, you know, the jazz portion and spoken word and all kinds of other things, comedy that's in the middle of the day, and then the big shindig is at night. So it's a long day for us, but it's a total honor to be involved.

44:21And you were also given an honorary doctor's degree from the University of Nebraska, Omaha? Right. My alma mater. That's right. UNO. I was a classical piano major in college, but I sang a lot here and there. I was involved with a big band there as an aside. I was in a rock and roll band while I was there, an all-girls rock and roll band, too. So that was in Omaha. And, you know, several years later, well, maybe three years ago, they gave me the honorary doctorate, which was, again, a big honor.

44:55I was wondering, because I've never gotten one of those, what do you get with that besides a piece of paper? Like, do you get to use the library for free? Do you get into football games? Like, what comes along with the prize package? That's a good question. Well, for me, it's more, I perform with the university big band a lot. Pete Mattson, the director of that, has included me in many events. And also, we have a scholarship available in my name through this for women instrumentalists, which I'm very proud of.

45:27Well, it's an amazing career. We're going to hear a song now from a number of years ago called Sweet Home Cooking Man, which I love. Tell me about this song. This song is an original song of mine. It recorded on our second album, I believe. It does go pretty far back. You know, everybody asked me if I wrote it with my husband and mine. And to be honest, no. But it's a fantasy, basically, about a man that cooks for me. And not that he doesn't sometimes, but it's a blues tune. This features some of the beautiful players I was working with back then in the Kansas City days.

46:01Let's see. Paul Smith, Rod Fleeman, Todd Strait, Bob Bowman. And I think that's all. So this is Sweet Home Cooking Man, my tune.

Sweet Home Cooking Man performance

46:11So this is the other side of love. Maybe it isn't, actually.

46:22I think love and food go hand in hand, don't you? It's another song of mine.

46:34Well, he ain't got personality. He ain't got such good looks. When I come home hungry, Lord, how my baby cooks. He's a chef of fine distinction. Always cooks it up just right.

46:56My taste buds in a frenzy, darling. They think that they've found paradise. Might be cooking lobster. Might be fixing fish. Doesn't matter, darling. It's always the perfect dish. He's a culinary wonder. Always cooks with the right spice.

47:30My taste buds in a frenzy, darling. And they think that they've found paradise.

47:41Well, I don't have to call Betty Crocker. I don't have to call Sarah Lee. This man has done his homework. He makes up his own recipe. Don't have to go out shopping. Don't have to go out outdoors. They say true love is when a man brings home the groceries. Instead of eating up all of yours. He's a chef of fine distinction.

48:10My baby comes complete with pots and pans. I got a nickname for him. I call him my sweet home cooking day. I call him my sweet home cooking day. I call him my sweet home cooking day. I call him my sweet home cooking day. I call him my sweet home cooking day. I call him my sweet home cooking day. I call him my sweet home cooking day. I call him my sweet home cooking day. I call him my sweet home cooking day. I call him my sweet home cooking day. I call him my sweet home cooking day. I call him my sweet home cooking day.

I call him my sweet home cooking day. I call him my sweet home cooking day. I call him my sweet home cooking day. I call him my sweet home cooking day. I call him my sweet home cooking day. I call him my sweet home cooking day. I call him my sweet home cooking day. I call him my sweet home cooking day.

48:41I call him my sweet home cooking day. Thank you.

49:12Thank you.

49:42He might even come complete with pots and pans Call him anything I want to Call mine my sweetheart Yes, Steve Parkes.

50:25That is a great toe-tapping tune, Karin. Thank you. We still play it. I know, you know, songs morph because when you record them early on as this one was for me, you know, it morphs and maybe it's a little slower, it's a little groovier, but I still include it and I get so many comments, especially from women afterwards about, and they want, they drag their husband over, their sweet home cooking man over to meet me. Oh, that's, that's wonderful. I read that the one of your inspirations

50:56was one of my very, very favorite musicians. I fell in love with her around 1983 and didn't get to see her perform until a few years before she passed away. And that's Blossom Deary. Yes. What a wonderful performer. Love me some Blossom Deary. I only saw her once too, George, here in New York City at Danny's Skylight Room, I believe. That's where she hung out for years. That's right. That's right. And I'll, I'll never forget, I heard her do Bye Bye Country Boy, which then I recorded later.

51:27And that's her tune. And I have, I have another few tunes that I do of hers. And I'm hoping to include something of hers in my new project this year. But she can play that piano like nobody's business. And, you know, the little tiny voice, but whoa, she's so soulful and smart and musical, you know, and she's just tells a story, sings her story. And my favorite song was My Attorney Burning. Yes. That is a delightful tune that if you haven't heard it,

51:59you can see it on YouTube. Yeah, she, she did several of Dave Frischberg tunes. And she really, I know that they were a great combination, good friends too. You've got a new album out. One of the songs we're going to hear shortly is Only Trust Your Heart. And you've got one in development. Tell me about this last album. The latest album is called A Kiss for Brazil. And it does feature this tune that you're going to play. And I guess I won't give it away, but it came about, I wanted to feature a beautiful singer,

52:30songwriter, guitarist from Brazil, Rosa Passus. She was coming through New York City, kind of a long story, but we really only went into the studio thinking we were going to do two tunes together. And I didn't know what was going to happen, but it felt so good with the band. After she was done, we said, let's continue on. And we did, we completed the project. And it's a love letter to Brazil. My second, well, second and a half, I suppose, we did From Paris to Rio, which was also featured a lot of Brazilian music and French music.

53:01And then Imagina, songs from Brazil. And that one garnered a Grammy nomination as well. And then this one, A Kiss for Brazil. Here's Karan with Only Trust Your Heart.

Only Trust Your Heart performance

53:12Never trust the stars When you're about to fall in love Look for hidden signs Or you'll begin to sigh

53:42Never trust the moon When you're about to taste his kiss He knows all the lines And lips so often lie Just wait for the night When the skies When the skies Are all bare

54:13Then see If you dare Never trust your dream When you're about to fall in love Or your dream will quickly fall apart So if you're smart So if you're smart Really smart Only trust your heart

54:47When you're about to fall in love Unless you're hasta Under the sky And you're about to fall You're that And you're those Before you зах 그런 Simple, cool current Just wait for the night

55:28When the skies are all bare Then see if you dare Never trust your dream When you're about to fall in love Or your dream will quickly fall apart So if you're smart Really smart

56:01Only trust your heart Only trust your heart Your heart

56:35Your heart I know you've been teaching jazz for a long time, Karin. Are you still doing that? Yes, I have. I'm no longer at the University of Hartford because I had to take a break because it's just too much for me, to be honest. So I've got a lot of private students that I enjoy and I enjoy teaching master classes. I like to pass it forward. I believe in music education in the schools. I'm, you know, broken hearted, dismayed that that's not so much the case anymore.

57:13So we have to step up, you know, this generation has to step up for the younger generation and show them the way. I mean, I lived it, you know, in school. I was going to school, but then hanging out at night and, you know, going to every jam session, going to hear concerts, classical, jazz, rock, just absorbing it all. And I had some great mentors along the way. And I hope I'm one of them to other people. I've seen a lot. I've seen a number of movies lately that feature young comedians and how they have to get airtime and come up through the different clubs. Where do young jazz artists go to get performance time?

57:53Great question. I mean, I always encourage my students, first of all, to go hear people live. Word of mouth is the way, you know, you hear from a friend or you have a teacher. You should ask the teacher. It depends on where you live, of course. It depends on how old you are, of course, but you can arrange your own sessions if you know, if you really want to, if you want a job at it, you know, go to a little coffee shop, start small, see if they want some music on a Sunday afternoon, for example. Just start with a duo. Start small and realistic and then learn a lot of songs. And things just go from there. They really do. If you really want it, there are ways to get it.

58:36I've noticed that a number of musicians will hit the cruise ship circuit at some point and do six months at sea. Oh, wow. That sounds like a sentence. I've done, I've played many jazz cruises, but only for a week at a time. And that's a lot of fun. But yeah, I mean, that's a great way for certain types of players to make a living. I think it's a great thing because live music is so important. And, you know, YouTube and karaoke and all that good stuff. You see a lot of players with a machine in front of them and just singing to it, you know, in a live situation. And that makes me kind of sad, you know, but I mean, it's not terrible, but it's that live music thing. You can't replace that.

59:22This has been really great, Karin. Thank you so much for joining us. I love your music and I'm looking forward to your next new album. When is that coming out? Well, I can't really give you that because I don't know, but I'm hoping for a fall release date. So I want to say thank you for having me. I love architecture, art of all kinds. I think it's fantastic that you've incorporated jazz into your thing. I think it's really original and cool idea and I appreciate it. Thanks for listening. Thanks for listening. U.S. Modernist Radio is underwritten by the Brent R. Harris Charitable Trust, restorer of Richard Neutra's Kauffman Desert House in Palm Springs, and six other houses in California, by the Ife Jones Conservancy, preserving the legacy of modernist architecture in northwest Arkansas, ifejonesconservancy.org.

1:00:09And by Diane Bald and the Budman family, restoring significant architecture in Palm Springs, Toronto, Malibu, and Los Angeles. Visit usmodernist.org's massive archives to listen to past shows, discover documentation of 25,000 significant modernist houses, and access 5 million pages of classic 20th century architecture magazines. U.S. Modernist Radio is produced by Soundtracks Recording Studios in Raleigh, North Carolina. Our theme song was performed by George Smart and Robinson Earle with guest research by Bobby Morris.

1:00:40Got a guest to suggest for the show? Writer at bobby at usmodernist.org. U.S. Modernist Radio is a production of Modernist Archive Incorporated, a nonprofit educational archive for the documentation, preservation, and promotion of modernist residential design. I'm Tom Guild. George and I'll be back soon with another postscriptorium edition of U.S. Modernist Radio. Penitentiagite, my friends. Penitentiagite, my friends. Penitentiagite, my friends. Penitentiagite, my friends. Penitentiagite, my friends. Penitentiagite, my friends.

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