313. Hold the Headline: How Curiosity Cuts Through Complexity

Welcome and introductions

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1:34months compared to other leading competitors. Join the 2.7 million small businesses using LinkedIn to hire. Get started by posting your job for free at linkedin.com slash fast. Terms and conditions apply. Curiosity and chemistry are critical to successful communication. My name is Matt Abrahams and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business. Welcome to ThinkFast TalkSmart, the podcast. Today, I'm excited to speak with Naima Raza. Naima is a journalist, producer, and creator.

2:14She was the co-host and executive producer of the hit podcast, on with Kara Swisher. She now hosts her own podcast, Smart Girl, Dumb Questions. Her work has appeared in the New York Times and New York Magazine, and she's produced documentary films that bridge complex geopolitical issues with accessible human narratives. Naima, thank you for being here and welcome to the Spotify studios in New York. It's awesome to be with you and continue with the conversations we've had on the phone and on email in person. Thank you so much for having me. I love your show and I'm so thrilled to be part of it.

2:46Excellent. Should we get started? Yes, let's jump in.

Translating complex information

2:49So if you look at your career from management consultant to journalist to podcast, you've changed a lot. Yes, and you missed documentary filmmaking. I did. I did. That's true. That's true. And now Ted Speaker. Yes. And for people listening, I'm not old. I just want you to know that I'm young still. That's right. You're very young and very hip. In all of those roles, actually, you've had to synthesize complex information and make it accessible to people. What kind of tools and frameworks do you use to help make that content easily understood?

3:21So much of it has to do with how I grew up. I grew up in Indonesia and Sudan. I'm Pakistani, born in DC. My entire life, I've been what's called, the technical term is a third culture kid in environments where I didn't necessarily always speak the language. And so I learned to speak body language and read what was happening. And I think sometimes we get caught up in the details of a moment. But when I'm making a film or a podcast or telling a story or making a slide, I think part of

3:52the gift of how I grew up is being able to focus on that big picture and think about what the message is that's coming across, both as I'm receiving it and as I'm kind of projecting it. One of the things I have found so useful in the way you communicate and break things down is you make it relevant. So you connect it to the people who are listening, which I think really helps. Do you do that consciously or is that just something that happens? I think that it's something that I've become conscious of and I do increasingly. So I think that my kind of superpower as a communicator is the ability to bring some levity to topics of

4:28gravity and to bring some gravity to topics of levity. And what I mean by that is, you know, if you're talking about the world today, politics, war, et cetera, oh my God, it can be such a bummer. And you just want to have a little bit of sense that the world continues that we, and so I think infusing some comedy into that and levity into that while, you know, not discounting the gravity of the situation. One of, I think the best ways that I've learned to condense information is in the business of headline writing, which is a very fraught enterprise

5:01these days. But you want to write a headline when you're writing at the New York Times or elsewhere. And we have a lot of conversation about what the headline should be. You want it to grab people's attention, but you want it to be faithful to the story. You, I don't think, want it to be polarizing, but you do want it to be provocative. And so I think as I started doing a lot of headline writing, I decided that the best questions I've ever been asked in my life are nine words or less. Interesting, huh? And I think that's the same

5:33because if you think about conversation or you have someone's cutting through like right now and blah, blah, blah, you're hearing this. Then I say, how do we solve that? That's what you hear. That's what we digest. So I think there's something about this punchy, direct question that can really help cut through the noise. Sometimes you're asking that to somebody because you're interviewing them. Sometimes you're asking that to yourself to get yourself to be a better communicator and understander and interpreter of what's going on. I really like this idea of thinking about your important communication as a headline. Now,

6:05most of us aren't writing headlines for news outlets, but we do write emails with subject lines. We do name our meetings. We do put titles on slides. And that advice, I think, applies there as well. And keeping, I'm going to try the nine word rule and see if we can, if that applies in the work I do. But I absolutely like that idea. I think it's particularly useful for questions. Yes. Particularly useful for questions. It's thinking about the emotion as well as the content and breaking it down. And those are all, I think, the right ingredients for helping make

6:38complex information more accessible. And I appreciate that you do that and continue to do that. We'll be right back to finish our conversation. But first, a quick word from one of our sponsors. Their support allows us to bring you this show free of charge. One of my favorite things about this show is hearing from listeners all over the world. Communication connects us. And the more people you can communicate with, the bigger your world becomes. So many of you are collaborating internationally, working across cultures, or simply trying to connect more deeply with people

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7:43start. Right now, Babbel is offering up to 60% off your subscription at babbel.com forward slash TFTS. And now, back to our conversation. A lot of your roles have been roles as translator in some

Confidence versus certainty

7:58ways, translating technical information, translating for the audience, for a performer. And you've been in the position often of being a translator for Gen Z and millennials for folks of my generation. Do you like that role? Do you have certain things you bring to that role? I mean, I think every type of communication is a moment of translation as well. I mean, I think now that I'm in the host seat and kind of star of my own show, I still think of myself as being the advocate. Even the title, Smart Girl, Dumb Questions, it's around the kind of confidence

8:32to be curious. And I think about that a lot, Matt, with your work, because you write a lot about confidence and the ability to communicate from that position. But I think we have conflated confidence and certainty a little bit. Tell me more about that. You want to be confident enough that there is some space left in your opinion to consider how other people think, to consider new information, and to digest that and kind of update your own worldview with that new information. Not so confident in your opinion that you cannot hear

9:04anything else, that you shut down the kind of first. And so I think, like I said in the TED talk I just gave, it's like the dumbest thing you can be is a know-it-all. And I've seen that play out. You make a really useful distinction there between confidence we have in our ability to communicate and confidence in the things we are communicating. And I absolutely agree that that confidence in what we're saying, there needs to be some room for creativity, for openness, because if we're sure

9:34of ourselves so much that we don't bring in other opinions, then we are being, as you said, dumb and being a know-it-all. So I'm curious, you certainly are confident in your opinions and ideas. Do you still get nervous when you interview people and when you're interacting? And if so, how do you manage that? No, of course I do. Do you? Of course. Yes. I mean, I think you're nervous because any time you film or make something, and I learned this as a documentary filmmaker when I was doing this film on the band Sublime, Tribeca in 2019,

10:07like when you're in the edit room and you ask the editor, well, why don't we have that? And it's like, well, because you didn't get it while you were producing the... So it's that scarcity of time when you're in conversation with someone that puts the pressure on. It's not who they are. I actually don't... I actually, I think I give more reverence on my show when I interview two 11-year-olds or two doormen than when I interview Neil deGrasse Tyson or Mark Cuban. But I get nervous about how little time there is and whether I can do everything that I want to do. That's what... I feel that same way when, especially in this capacity, is people are gifting you their time

10:41and I want to... I get nervous that I'm not going to make it a good experience for them or get as much out of it. But I try... I think it's... You're doing an amazing, amazing job. I feel very much like this is a worthwhile use of time and hope everyone listening and watching does too. I think people really want to be understood. Part of the gift that we have as hosts is helping understand people. Sometimes people don't necessarily fully understand themselves and you're kind of unpacking and translating that. But I think if you enter in the conversation in good faith and you're really trying to understand

11:13someone, then the conversation is often, if not always, a success. And it's that approach that I think can help calm some of those nerves, knowing that I'm here to really listen, to allow the person to be heard. When you get out of yourself and realize you're in service of other people, you can really reduce that anxiety. By the way, every time I stop recording, I'm always like, that was terrible. It doesn't matter what I do. Do you have that or do you have more confidence on the other end? Interesting. I do have that. I don't think that was terrible. I think that could have been better.

11:44Yes. That's actually what I should say. I don't think it was terrible. Yeah. I'm just, oh, that could have been better. And not on the guest's part, but it's usually my part. I could have done this or I should have done that. Yeah. I have a friend who talks about how we shouldn't should all over ourselves. And I unfortunately still do. It's just your ability to be in the moment is just difficult for all of us. No, absolutely. But when you can get in that present moment, when you can be in service of others, I think the anxiety abates, the confidence builds. But that's where I think preparation and the right amount of preparation is so important because I

12:17have found that I do really well with improv. I host a debate sometimes at the Comedy Cellar in New York City for open to debate on NPR. And I love that environment because when you have an intellectual threesome with two people on stage fighting with each other or sparring with each other and you're moderating, you never know what's going to happen. I like the idea of an intellectual thruple. Exactly. Intellectual thruple. So I think I like to be prepared enough that I have a map and then absolutely prepared to throw it away. And I find when I'm over-prepared and I have a script,

12:49it really doesn't serve. If it's like 30 questions, it doesn't serve me. If it's 10, it's perfect. Right. Absolutely. A lot of the work I've done around spontaneous speaking is preparing to be spontaneous. There's a whole bunch of stuff we can do as you're talking about. And there's that sweet spot where it's just enough to give you the confidence in the directionality, but not so much that it's scripted. And finding that, everybody has to find their own

Independent creator versus traditional media

13:14sweet spot for that. But once you do, it really helps. You left your roles at the New York Times and Vox, which are two traditional media examples to strike out on your own. I'm curious to get your thoughts as a creator in what's different doing the work you do as an individual creator versus working for a more traditional media outlet. Yeah. A lot more risk, a lot more reward. That's the simple headline of it. And a lot of work. A lot of work. I think the hardest thing has been,

13:45you care so much about your own thing. I cared so much about other people's things. I cared about Sway at the New York Times. I cared about On with Kara Swisher. And I cared about Mixed Signals, which I co-hosted at Semaphore with Ben Smith, my former colleague from the New York Times as well. But it's a gift to be able to put all that care into something that you want to build and you think deserves to be in the world. And then the challenge becomes finding other people who care about it as much as you do. I have a great team. So I have found that. And people like Desta,

14:16my producer, Melissa, Johnny Simon, who engineers our content. I mean, I found people who really care about it so much so that sometimes I'll be like, can we get this out early? And they're like, it's not going to be as good. And I appreciate that. Yeah, that feedback. That feedback loop. Or, you know. But I think, okay, this is a very hard question for me because I also worry about a world in which we're all just broadcasting and projecting and everyone has their own channels and everyone has to be a creator and everyone. And that's what we're being told now. It's like, well, what does 8 billion channels look like? And who the heck is left to watch? No wonder

14:50everything matters. It's only in the first second. So I think about it a lot. I think I only did this show because I felt I had something to say or not even something to say. I felt I had a tone that I didn't find in the world. Oh, interesting. I felt that I found people who were very angry, who were very certain, who were very unplugged, disinterested. But I wasn't finding that intersection of, okay, I want to be informed about the world and thoughtful about not the day-to-day news, but these big ideas,

15:20capitalism, hyper-independence, individualization, the shifting world order. And I want to talk about it in ways that really impact my own life. And I want to do it with a sense of comedy. And the best thing I could find was comedians who would do this. But I think there is a missing middle of, can you be much more entertaining than legacy media, much more factual than the average kind of podcast bro or chick, and, you know, more useful than yesterday's news? The purpose-driven approach stands out in what you just said. It's not just about getting

15:57information out. It's having a purpose behind that information. I have worked very hard on thinking about the purpose of this show, and you've clearly thought about yours. And I think part of the advice I would give to anybody who starts or down this path of being a creator is really know your purpose, really figure out what's motivating you because it's hard work. And that purpose can really get you through some of that. I want to give you an opportunity to talk about your TED Talk that just came out. It's very brief, but very effective. Talk to us about the idea of being

16:30curious in the modern age.

Curiosity in the modern age

16:32One, it was such an honor and privilege to be invited to give a TED Talk. I wasn't expecting it. I'd done something at the Comedy Cellar, and some of the editors at TED and Ignite were there and asked me to do this talk. I wanted to give a voice to two 11-year-olds I'd interviewed on my show. And I had asked them, how does life on screens feel different to real life? Because I keep seeing kids. I don't have kids yet, but I see kids at airports, et cetera, just on FaceTime not speaking to each other. Have you seen this? Yes. Yeah. So I asked them why that happens and how that feels

17:06different to real life. And Sophie, then 11, now 12, says, you know, it just feels so much more together when you're with them on FaceTime. That blew my mind. And I said, what do you mean? Like even more than real life? And Sophie responds, yeah, because when you're on FaceTime, you're doing stuff together. You're playing together. You're doing homework together. You're doing Roblox together. But nowadays when you're in real life, everyone's just on their phone. Right. And I thought that was such an insight that our ability to be present in a physical world has

17:38been completely distracted by these devices and our ability to be present on them because they're full screen experiences has gone up. And that just made me think a lot about what else we were disconnected from, our own curiosities, because we don't sit and wonder. We just ask the question and then know the answer and then project that answer out in conversation. And so that's really where the talk started from. And it kind of takes a personal turn of how I learned those lessons. But it was a gift to be able to share a little bit about how you think and the world works and also

18:11to be able to share those kids' perspectives, which really caused a gasp in the room. Right. When I watched the talk and heard it, and I'd actually seen your interview with them. It really is. You shake your head and go, what? Wait, hold on. But in that moment, it makes you curious. And you do a really nice job in the talk of not only advocating for the curiosities that you do, but the way in which you deliver it makes us curious. And it's a nice example, and I encourage everybody to watch and listen to it, of how delivery reinforces the message

18:47in a very positive way. Because it's playful and it's curious. And we see ourselves in many of the things that you mentioned, but we don't feel bad about ourselves for it. We say, oh, okay, that's who I am, but I can do this other thing. So it's empowering in a way. And I think a lot of that is not just the wordplay, but how you deliver it. And making content accessible in that way, not just making sure we understand it, but making us feel okay about it. I thought it was really well done. You're a great question. Ask me a question. I may or may not answer it, but go ahead.

19:20Let me ask you. Yes. Okay. I feel as a millennial, life is being co-opted by Gen Z now. We love them and Gen Alpha increasingly. And I'm curious how you think about staying relevant as you age. Yeah. So I think a lot about aging and relevance as I'm getting older and as I'm seeing the impact I can have and what it means. I think it's all about, to your point, curiosity and listening. I have an amazing job. I get to work with mid-20 folks who are going to just change the world in

19:57amazing ways. And that helps me feel excited. It helps me feel relevant. And a lot of what I do is listen. I'm curious and ask questions. And those help me feel like I'm adding value. When I get the opportunity to work with my students or younger people and really listen, synthesize, and ask questions, that really brings joy to me and hopefully relevance. Do you feel like we're losing wisdom? I think wisdom is changing. I think the fact that so much information is now available,

20:31that the wisdom and access to information are very connected, but lived experience, intuition, gut feeling, that's not captured in an LLM. And I fear that people are just not curious or seeking wisdom. They're just seeking information. So are we losing it? No, I still think it's there. I just don't think – I fear that people aren't searching for it. That is one of the things I worry about in our culture. I think we're very interested in what's new, what's fresh, what's cool. And I think that – look,

21:06I don't think – I'm not advocating for a gerontocracy. I think that people who are boomers and beyond probably don't need to be kind of controlling Capitol Hill anymore. But I do think that there's a wisdom of that experience that is not being translated as much in our current world. And I sometimes worry about that. You know, to me, wisdom is associated with experience. So the older you are, in theory, the more wisdom you have. But I have met very wise younger people as well. And so we – I think just

21:37this notion of being open, being curious, listening makes you available to wisdom. And some of the most insightful things I've learned, like you did, from 11-year-olds. I mean, what insight, what wisdom there in that conversation. So, well, thank you for asking me a question. You know, there is no right, there is no wrong. Before we get started, a quick reminder to make sure you're following our show in whatever app you're listening to. This is the best way to help our show grow and to make sure you never miss an episode. And now a word from our sponsors. Their support helps us bring you this

22:11show free of charge. Over the course of my career, I've had the privilege of working with some truly amazing coaches. And I've also spent years coaching others. And I can tell you firsthand, coaching makes a real difference. That's why I really appreciate what Strawberry.me is doing. Strawberry.me makes coaching more accessible, affordable, and global. Whether you want to become a stronger communicator, a more confident leader, or simply more intentional in your career, having the right coach in your corner can make an enormous difference. Visit strawberry.me

22:43slash smart and take 50% off of your first session. And make sure you let them know Matt sent you. And now, back to our conversation.

Personal lessons and communication recipes

22:53So before we end, I'd like to ask three questions. One I make up just for you, and then the other two I've been asking everybody as long as the show's been on. Are you willing to do that? Yes, of course. Does that count as a question? That's a warm-up. Don't use one of your three on that. Okay, I won't. No, it's not like wishes for a genie. So to get very serious, by coincidence, the day we are recording is the anniversary of your father's passing. You wrote a very touching and personal article in the New York Times about your father. What is one lesson you wish people would

23:23take away from your father's life and his wisdom? Thank you for asking and for bringing him up and helping me remember him on this day. I'll give you two. One is from my dad and one is from what I've learned from the experience of losing him. I think that the lesson I learned from my dad really was to be present and to not let the other, may I swear for a second, the other shit get in the way. My dad was the kind of guy who never held a grudge. Literally, somebody would be upset with

23:55him and not wanting to talk to him, and my dad would call his brother every Sunday to ask how he's doing, and he would wear you down. He really didn't believe in holding a grudge because at the end of the day, he would say, well, what am I going to do? He's my brother. He's my friend. And he had that ability to, in a world where I think we often think we want to cut people out of our life because of how they feel about an opinion politically, how they feel about something, how they showed up on that random Tuesday when we had something important, he had that ability to really hold people's plunder and to maintain relationships and give great forgiveness.

24:32So that's what I've learned. And how I translate that lesson and think into my own life is that when you lose someone, it's often possible to get caught up in, as your friend said, should all over yourself. And I think that because he lived that way, I've been able to release some of the, oh, I should have, in the pandemic, why didn't I go quarantine my parents' house instead of going out with friends to, all that kind of stuff. And I've learned that you really kind of have the ability to keep people alive and to keep having memories and meaning-making in relationships that are

25:07gone. That's so true. We can keep the memory of people alive through how we talk about them and the meaning we make in our own lives. Thank you for sharing that. And thank you for being here on a tough day. Question number two, who's a communicator you admire and why? You know, I think Kendrick Lamar. Tell me more about that. Has that people said Kendrick before on this show? You were the first to say Kendrick Lamar. I think that he's just so poetic. His lyrics are really spot on. They're catchy. I think this about a lot of rappers, songwriters, but the ability to poetically, succinctly, and emotionally

25:42talk about very difficult things, I think is reflected in Kendrick's work. And if you read it, I mean, he's kind of like Chekhov. If you read it, you find it extremely deep and meaningful. Yeah, no, absolutely. And a lot of people don't think about the communicative power of that genre. And I appreciate you highlighting that. Final question. What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe?

26:13I love that. You know, I'm going to say it's on brand, but number one, curiosity. Yes.

26:20Number two, chemistry. Being able to cultivate, create, and create that chemistry through pauses, through play, through jokes, through language, all the ways that you can kind of make sure that communication is, you know, at least two way, if not an intellectual trouble or beyond. And number three, I'm going to say a sense of what's not in the room, a sense of what's missing, so that you can expand

26:50a conversation, a communication, so that you can leave a conversation and think about how to take it beyond this world. And just, you can be more aware, I think. That last point about awareness about what's not present really allows for conversation and communication to expand and extend. And I think that's really powerful. And I appreciate the notion of chemistry, connection, building that, having that as intention, and of course, curiosity. Well, thank you for your time and for being so forthright and open and sharing with us how we

27:26can all be better translators and more curious in our lives. I appreciate your time. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. I've, you know, I love your show and I love the work that you do and I love how global it is. I just want to say you are reaching people all over the world who, this is a global challenge. You are doing a great job of helping people succeed in their own languages, in English, and just in everything they do. So thank you. Well, thank you. Best of luck to you as well. Thanks. Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. To hear more interesting and insightful episodes like this one, be sure to check out our back catalog of episodes

27:58in your favorite player or at fastersmarter.io. This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams. Our music is by Floyd Wonder, with special thanks to the team at Spotify Studios in New York City and Podium Podcast Company. Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. Be sure to subscribe and rate us. Also follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok, and Instagram. And check out fastersmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language learning content, and our newsletter. Please consider joining the Think Fast, Talk Smart learning community at

28:32fastersmarter.io slash learning. You'll find video lessons, learning quests, discussion boards, my AI coach, and book club opportunities. Again, that's fastersmarter.io slash learning to be part of the Think Fast, Talk Smart learning community. Before we wrap up, I just want to say thank you for listening. It really means a lot to hear how people all over the world are using these ideas in their own lives. It inspires me and the whole team that brings you this show. If you want more episodes and resources, feel free to follow, subscribe, and explore past conversations. We're grateful for your support of Think Fast, Talk Smart.