Protecting Your Music and Cultural Production w/Atty Mel Flowers and DJ Louie Green on VHS

Introduction to House Music

0:00These guys are all big influences on me and certainly house music.

0:30So let's go on that. I want to talk a little bit about each of your illustrious careers because you guys have done a lot. You've done a lot. All three of you have done amazing, you know, have had amazing contributions to what we call house music.

Celebration and Preservation

0:49You know, this is the vintage house show. And so part of what that is about is celebration and preservation. This is Lawrence Brayming, but the celebration and preservation of Chicago house legends and Chicago house music.

1:19You are listening to 89.3 FM WNUR in Evanston, Chicago. We are very close to having one of, I think, our most important shows that we've ever had on the vintage house show.

Legal Rights in Music Production

1:39We are talking about your legal rights. What should you know about music production? What should you know about the business of house music? You know, we've lost a lot of fantastic pioneers and we've had quite a few GoFundMes. How are we protecting our families in this unique environment that we seem to have ourselves in? Our special guest host for the night is DJ Louie Green, West Green. You've got a lot of names there, Louie. And our special guest is attorney Mel Flowers. Mel Flowers has a new practice that is in the business of assisting those who are creatives and artists.

2:20And we're going to pop in and get started. What's happening, y'all?

Show Introduction

2:26All right. This is Louie Green and we are on WNUR 89.3 FM in HD, Evanston, Chicago. And we started off with a track by my friend, Terrence McDonald. I think it's called Drum Frenzy.

Guest Introduction

2:56And we're here today with Melvin Flowers. How are you doing today, Melvin? I am fantastic. How about you? You good? I'm good. I'm good. Thank you for having me here. I appreciate it. Okay. Awesome. So the first thing we want to start off with is who are you, Melvin? Can you tell us a little bit about who you are? Okay. All right. So I'm a guy from the south side of Chicago, born and raised. I'm a child of the 70s and the 80s. So I attended Hyde Park Career Academy. So big up to the Hyde Park Career Academy. Back in the day, it was Indians.

3:30But of course, it's the Thunderbirds today. So that's for the young folks. Give it up to my folks from Bradley University, but also give it up to my man, the cap out for style, the noobs, yo baby. But yeah. And then, of course, to all the divine out there, too, as well. But I'm a guy that grew up in this music. One, I think about when I first started hearing, you know, we went through the iterations of music from punk to new wave, all those different things until we got to what we call house music, right?

4:01And so, again, think about my time in the 80s going to house parties at people's houses and just enjoying music. Disco, of course, for many of us back in the day. And then, of course, where we are now.

Law Career Focus

4:14So so now where I'm at now in my profession of law, I'm focused on really helping either startups and entrepreneurs, but also major corporations that are doing some really complex transactions. But a lot of that focuses on intellectual property. And of course, there's a big part that focuses on those that are creatives as well. OK, I think we talked about one of the things you want to talk about today. I know for sure was. Well, before we do that, we did talk about where you went to school.

4:44Yeah. Yeah. What? Why did you choose law as a profession? Yeah. You know, I'm a technology guy by nature. OK. So so it's interesting. Right. So one, you know, I'm a business guy who loves technology, who loves law. Right. OK. And so when I was, you know, an undergrad, of course, I focused on business and tech. At that time, it was computer science. Right. We had punch cards back then. Right. And so so, you know, when I was my first job out, I was working with a company called Dun & Bradstreet.

5:20We were doing business information. We were writing the studies. You know them because they do the Dunn's numbers on the businesses and, of course, the business credit ratings. But they also wrote the industry studies. And we I could see where industries were going because we were writing the studies. And you saw that technology, of course, was about to take off really big. Right. Because the Internet really hadn't been developed fully as a commercial item. And so I had left there and gone to Ameritech. And that's where I really started to learn technology, fiber optic technology.

5:54We were working on network access points. And then, of course, we were helping to build the backbone for what would be the Internet. Right. And so I worked with some really mad scientists doing some really cool stuff in those central offices. And then I became a programmer and I was doing Unix and all of that. But then I also understood the the sort of the interplay between technology and law. OK. And what really got me with the law was watching individuals in our community. And some people didn't know him. And I always give credit to our Eugene Pincham.

6:24Our Eugene Pincham was a well-known appellate court judge. And well-known back when the E2 situation happened, you know, that I love. He was one of the lawyers in that in that mix helping. But he did a lot of work in the community helping individuals who couldn't afford adequate legal care. Right. And so he, you know, would be all over the place just helping, you know, our grandmothers and others. Right. Get legal support. And he was tireless in doing this.

6:56And so he was a guy that I love. In fact, he was the person who wrote my letter of recommendation for law school. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. OK. And so I always, I always. Did you pass the bar the first time? Yeah. So I laugh. I laugh because my good friend, my shipment, we we we both wrote the bar. That's what we did. Oh, wow. And so when we did that, we actually had a night of party and then we went to the school, the next school and then did the bar.

7:26It was like, all right, we're out, you know. So but anyway, that that whole thing took me to really just understanding, like how the law, you could use that degree for good. In addition to making a good living. But it was really about how you could use it to help folks who otherwise can get it in our neighborhood. You know, it's always a challenge to find a good lawyer, you know, and if and if they're good, you know, it's hard to get them as well, too. Right. To work and help you out. So that's that's sort of what really led me looking at what other folks were doing and looking at great folks,

7:59especially those who made impact in our community, they were lawyers. And again, they're all different types of professions. But for me, that was what led me to it. Right.

New Law Practice

8:09And of course, it's the evolution of it. OK, well, you have a new practice, right? I sure do. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Yeah. Yeah. So so so for a number of years, actually almost two decades, I was with a company called Accenture and there I was handling a array of different legal areas for the corporation, largely international. So while I'm licensed here in the U.S., I'm also licensed outside the U.S. I'm what you call a solicitor. So an English solicitor, a form of lawyer in the U.K. and in Wales. And so I'm licensed in the U.K. also in Wales. And that gives me access to other countries that were part of the British Commonwealth.

8:45OK, so throughout the Caribbean, I can move into certain areas, Cayman Islands, Bermuda, you know, British Virgin Islands instantly in practice. Of course, Jamaica and other places, too, you may have like a work permit requirement for some of those throughout parts of Asia and other places. Right. So it gives me access to do those things because my practice is international and what I do. Right. And so the the ability to sort of move around in that corporation was a platform for me to do all types of things, whether it be a corporate secretary for smaller businesses or a general counsel,

9:19or at least what we would call a form of general counsel, where you're leading an entire practice and, you know, leading multiple lawyers around the globe in different areas, in different disciplines. Right. So the beauty of that gave me just incredible opportunities and exposure to say, wow, you know, I want to go out and do my own. Right. Right. Right. The thing I found was a challenge is that I recruited all over the globe. Right. For talent. And I recruited throughout India, Asia, different parts of Asia, Latin America, here in the U.S., of course, in Canada, Europe for lawyers.

9:54Right. But what I also noticed is that as I was looking to find more people like us that not only are great lawyers, but also that understand technology and understand it at the scale that we were doing it, you know, they're there, but it was always hard to find them. Right. And so what I needed to do was to be able to help. And so I decided, like, you know, with all the things that were going on, the timing was great. You know, kids are in college. They're about to do their thing. Right. And, you know, I'm in a good situation right now. And so I said, listen, this gives me time to jump out. There's a lot of chaos that's going on right now.

10:27That's where opportunity actually exists. OK. But it also gives me an opportunity because I'm on a number of boards where with universities where I can see that there is a pipeline of budding young lawyers. Right. That I can work with. And that's one of the biggest things I want to do. Start to train up some of these young lawyers of color and others as well. So a rainbow in this area of technology and law and also those who want to give back to their communities. Right. OK. That's the focus. OK. I know we talked about a little bit earlier.

Lawyers for Creative Arts

10:57Can you tell me a little bit about lawyers for creative arts? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm on a number of boards right now. Right. Whether it's with universities or others. And so there are organizations. Right. That I participate in that I have a passion for. So for a number of years, I volunteered with an organization called Lawyers for the Creative Arts. And what they do is provide pro bono legal support for creatives, whether it's music, TV, film, writers, you name it, all areas and in all different types of elements.

11:34It could be a trademark, copyright. It could be I need to set up a business. I need bylaws. Right. Corporate formation documents, whatever that may be. Legal entity set up. They will help you with the business. Right. Of of of of that particular art. Right. Theaters, you name it. We're working with them to really give them structure. OK. And so that gets into not only a lot of people focus on copyright and intellectual property, but there is so many other areas.

12:04Right. That we need to address for a creative who's a professional. Right. You know, you've got to you yourself should have your own legal entity. Right. You yourself should protect your intellectual property. And if you can get a monopoly on it, let's do that and show you how to do it. Let's show you how to move that into a legal entity. Right. So you can now separate that taxation issues to kind of reduce that and then use that to license out your music to others. Right. The contracting piece then becomes a big issue. Right. And how we contract and paper all the deals. Right. So things are solid because we believe in sort of helping you to avoid litigation.

12:38OK. Litigation isn't fun. Right. You know, and it's distraction. It costs money. And I tell folks, you really don't know what you're getting into when you say I want to go to court. Right. And we try to avoid that. You know, and the idea is let's talk about how you run this very sophisticated business, even though it's small. But how do you make it sophisticated, build some compliance into it so you can run the business and still focus on your art? OK. So do you feel like people should be proactive instead of reactive when it comes to obtaining an attorney? Oh, always. And I'm going to tell you, this is one thing when I talk to the startups and I say, you know, who are you working with right now for your legal services?

13:16Most don't have a lawyer until they realize, like, oh, my gosh. See, lawyers don't just a good lawyer doesn't just provide, you know, recitations of the law. Right. They are your business partner. Right. There's a reason why you can find a general counsel who can tend to flip over and become a president or CEO of a corporation because they know it so well. They know the issue. So the issues bubble up to them so they can advise, you know, the C-suite on where the potential issues are so we can move that out the way and keep the business running, get the distractions out the way.

13:48And so this is where, you know, and I tell we can use the word compliance or we can use whatever it takes to say my job is to be the good hands people to kind of keep, you know, the mess out the way. And you just keep doing what you're doing. Right. Because in business, you know, litigation is bound to happen at some point just because you're in business. But you want to think about, you know, how do we create a process, a structure, a culture that is about building that business, expanding that business.

14:20You know, one, creating a culture of team. Right. Where you folks are happy. Right. What they do. How do we expand that to grow it? OK. And so, you know, a lot of people get into business for different reasons. Some is to make money. Some is build legacy, whatever it may be. Some is just to take care of other people. But but whatever it may be, you know, that business could be a legacy. We want to tell you about how you can protect that business, how you can protect your assets from, you know, litigation or other types of issues. Right. How you can, again, create that business rights so that it's very valuable.

14:54So you can exit that business at some point, meaning you get. Absolutely. Absolutely. And so all of this is important when you think about it. And, you know, I always tell folks, I want you to think bigger about what your business could be. Intellectual property, when you think about it, is one of the biggest exports in this country. Right. And guess who dominates most of that? People of color. No doubt. Right. They're creatives. Right. And I always say it's just not just what you do is how you're made, meaning this is a divine thing.

15:26Right. You know what we do. Right. That's what I mean. Right. It is. It is divine for many people. You know, your art. That's how you proselytize it for some. That's how you express God in your life. You know, it's a fact, which is why art moves people to emotions, to tears, to whatever. You can always think about some type of music and you remember where you were. Yeah. Right. You know. And so that's why this is so important. Right. Very important. Very important. And that's how we show people how to really exploit the business part of it.

Crisis in the House Community

15:53So right now we pretty much have a crisis in the house community. Yeah. And we've got a lot of DJs, producers and such that, in my opinion, some of them anyway, make a good amount of money. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But the problem is, at the end of the day, we've got a GoFundMe. Yeah. Set up for these fellows when they pass away because they don't have any money at the end of the day. Yeah. And I'm a solution type of guy. My question is, how do we do that? How do we fix that problem?

16:25I know it's a big problem. Yeah. What do you think the top three things are we can do? Top three. OK. So let me start with this first off, because I feel you on this one. Let me start by saying this. So. So. While I'm a lawyer today, I'm a guy that came from that culture. I'm still in that culture. Right. What I mean by that is when I think about the party scene, whether it was, you know, the music box, which was the underground for us, if it was Sawyer's, we say Sawyer's. Somebody say Sowers. Right. You know, but it's Sawyer's for us. So Sawyer's for me. Right. You know, the playground, the candy store, you know, when we talk about Medusa.

17:00You know, you go on and on. We, you know, the 48 hour marathons at the box, man. That was us, man. And then second coming. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We were rocking, man. And, you know, shout out to my my guy who was security, Dunzel. I don't know where he is, but that big guy, man, he reminded me of Ronnie Coleman, man. He just manned that door. But but and he let us in, even though we were young, too. But but but but but no doubt. So. So I wanted to say that because, you know, there were DJs like Andre Hatchet and that's my guy. Right. You know, back in the day, he and Tony, I grew up with Andre Ferris, Thomas, give it up to Lil Jon, give it up to Terry Hunter, because all those three guys, they also went to Hyde Park as well, too.

17:39Right. You know. And so there were a lot of DJs and musicians that came out. So back in that day, whether we were at Mendo or other places, the culture was so strong from the fashion to the dance group, like the Prep Boys, the Archies, all of that. Right. This is Chicago. Right. And so I see today I'm always rocking with my music and looking for the best DJs. I say that because I just talk about my passion for the music and the culture and what it is. OK. Now, getting to the question itself, I say that because I want to talk about why this is important, why we talk about this, because it is it is it is truly an art form that has come out of Chicago.

18:15Absolutely. That's why we stay connected. Born and raised in Chicago. So what we should be showing, though, is not only is the art form, but how successful our artists are, too. We created this. So we should be the ones not only exploiting this, but reaping the benefits of this. And many of us are not. Others others have taken this art form and blown it up and they don't look like us. Why? Why are they why are they doing better at it than we are? Right. Because, well, one, they've got access and resources and they also have a fan base that's much larger. OK. Why do they have a fan base much larger when we're the ones that created the genre?

18:48Right. Right. Right. And so sometimes we're moving slow. This is like a business. Right. You can create something, you know, and if you're slow to move to to really capitalize on that, somebody else sees it, they jump on it and they roll because they've got an infrastructure or they've got a built in base and they roll. OK. And so one thing and you hear this often amongst the DJs about there being a division, you know, in the community, you know, between some of the artists and, you know, that may be very true. But put that aside, because if you've got an artist who has won the creativity, that's one thing, but that's still not enough if they don't know how to exploit the art, if they don't know how to make the deals and the connections and get in front of the right people.

19:33And I think that's where we probably have dropped the ball a bit. You know, when you think about some of the artists who really, I mean, killing it, but still on a global basis or even nationwide, people may not know them. OK. And so this is where it comes into play, where we've got to show people how to operate a business, how to really, you know, build a team. So is that the number one thing that you think we are doing wrong is we we love to do the music, but we don't handle the business side of it. We don't have the infrastructure. We don't have the attorneys. We don't have the S-Corps or, you know, LLC set up.

20:09And so we can't monetize our art. I think I think that's one of them. I think that's probably one of the biggest pieces. Right. I mean, if we analyze the situation, you know, you've got artists. Artists are great at being artists. Right. They're probably not great at business. Right. So you do need to build a team. Right. Some folks are really good at building good teams. Right. Whether it's marketing, folks that distribute, folks that are going to help them with the contracts and the legal issues. You know, the admin piece is big. Right. Yeah. You do need a team in order to really effectively make this go.

20:40Now, I always say that. Right. You know, for anything, if you think about whether it's music or if it's film or if it's broadcast, it is helpful to have a team. Now, I get it that there are additional costs that come with that. Right. So but that just means you need to be super special. Right. To kind of overcome some of those things. Right. But I do believe that that's a big part of the talent is there. Right. I mean, we know that. Right. Right. Tell me about the eye of the tiger. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So. So, you know, we talked about that earlier. Right. Because when we think about this thing, this business.

21:13Right. We have to think about, you know, your art itself. And I mentioned that as an example because I met the guy Steve Petrick and that was who it is. Steve Petrick. He and another person actually wrote that song. He is the lead on that song. And Steve meeting him. And actually, we were doing a workshop. For those who don't know, I have the tiger was in the Rocky movie. Very famous song. And anyone that hears that song, whether it's in a commercial or what, Steve is getting paid. Right. He's getting he's getting dollars every single time that song pays. And as he says, that's his annuity. That's his retirement.

21:46Okay. That one song is his retirement plan. That's it. It's the gift that keeps on giving every single time. And it is true. Every time you hear it, it's just like Rocky. Just the image of Rocky, which Stallone made, was so clever that he can take that image of Rocky, you know, and put it anywhere, in a commercial, in a cartoon. And he gets paid because he made it so unique. And that's the thing about artists. You make music. You have to make it so unique.

22:21And if it is, exploit the heck out of it. Control it by getting the appropriate protections on it. You know, file it. Get your copyrights right. Get trademarks for your business. Get service marks for your service. And then use that engine and start to go out and push and market the heck out of it. But the key, what we know, when we think about artists throughout history, whether it was, you know, with Cadillac records or any other, chess records or anything, was a lack of great contracting and support from, I believe, from a legal perspective, right?

22:54And then, of course, there are other business elements that were missing. We just didn't know. So we need to be better educated. Ignorant. So back in the day, Larry Sherman had a thing. When you walked into his office, and I was almost a victim of this myself, he said, this is a standard contract. Yeah. But if you read it, it said, he owned your rights to all your music in perpetuity, the whole nine. Yeah. And I was young. I didn't understand everything, but I understood what perpetuity meant. Yeah. So, and I said, this doesn't look like it.

23:25That's right. Right. What do you do if they've signed these bad contracts? Like, how do they fix this? So let's start with... Especially if you don't have any money. Yeah. Yeah. Let's start with, first off, never sign something that you don't know. Assume that it's language you don't understand, right? And so if you don't even know the language, why would you sign it? So the first thing we've got to say is hold on, because there is a zealousness, right, to just get the contract and get the, I got the deal.

23:58Right. And I've got the check, right? Right. And I don't care what it takes. And then later as you get older, you realize, oh my gosh, I signed away my life or I signed away, you know, some incredible asset and property that I had. And now you're fighting to get it back. There are too many of those stories. And a lot of times, once you do that, it is very difficult, right? Unless, of course, somehow you signed it, you were under duress, you were too young to sign contracts like that, right? Like, someone forges you, whatever it takes, right? There truly are some legal defenses, right, to some of those things, right?

24:30Okay. You know, but for the most part, if you were of age and you signed those things, right, you got to live with that contract in many cases, right? So it just depends. And every situation is different. But what I would say for anyone, and I had this situation now, I can't tell you how many times I had someone that signed a contract, you know, can you help me out? Like, I'm sorry, no. This is what it is. This is what it is. Now, you got to live with that, right? You know, unless, of course, you want to breach. Right. Okay. I mean, there are some situations, right, you know, the legal defenses for those types of things. I mean, it's fact-specific.

25:03But the fact is that the best thing to do in every situation is to slow down and have a lawyer review that for you so that they can tell you, you know, what are the risks, but also what are the opportunities, right? Okay. And by the way, I want to say this. A lot of people focus on contracts. The contract is only to memorialize a relationship. It's a tool. Really, we should be having a conversation about relationship first. And that's a mindset change.

25:34Okay. What do you really want to do with this person? What do you want to get out of it? And that's what I say. Put the contract to the side. Let's talk about what are you trying to accomplish? What do you want to get out of this? Then let's go to the contract. And now we're going to modify this contract based upon what you need. Never sign something that you didn't have a conversation about the relationship first, where it now takes you into account. There's no such thing as a standard contract in my view, right? Right. Right. Okay. Yeah. I learned that. Yeah. I learned that. Yeah. So with that being said, there's no such thing as standard contract. A lot of our guys have gotten into the situation. I myself and other guys, I know we, you know, I had a brother that I paid his, I went and bought him food once a week for a year.

26:21Yeah. And stocked his shelves. I took him to, to Jewel and said, Hey man, just fill it up or whatever. And because he didn't have any money, but one of the best techno artists in the world, I promise you, he would go and sell his music to overseas company and they would give him 300 bucks. I told him, I said, why don't you do a PMD deal? Because then you could just pay them a dollar for distribution. You're selling 300 copies of your record, 3000 copies of your record every time you press up. And then, you know, they're selling for 22 bucks a piece. It only costs $3.50 to press up. You make the deal. So in fact, I'll even front you the money.

27:07I'll take a percentage, you know, maybe 60%, you know, maybe 60%. I'm putting up on the money. And the next time you don't need me, you can do it yourself. Ah, I need the $400 right now, you know, and it's a mindset. How do we help our, our artists change their mindset so they could be more fiscally responsible? Yeah. Yeah. You know, so one, you got to show them the opportunity costs or the loss, right? What a decision you make now will mean years down the road, right? You know, so let's just say that there's a real situation, right?

27:43Where people are doing whatever it takes, right? To get some money, to pay bills, to eat, all of that, right? And just pat or behaviors, right? And how people are socialized as relates to money, right? Investing is a big thing, right? Investing. You know, this is a big thing we need to talk about and how people have to build a safety net. If you're in a situation, and so, so it's different if some people haven't been in corporate in that space, right? Where you've got all these additional benefits and safety nets versus when you've just simply been grinding, grinding, grinding, especially as an entrepreneur.

28:14So when I look at an artist, I mean, they're entrepreneurs. In many cases, they're solo business owners in some case, right? And so unless, of course, they've worked in a situation where they understand the value of health insurance and disability insurance, just having health benefits and ongoing really good ones. When you understand the value of that, you know it when you don't have it, okay, right? And so it's the same thing I say with some of our sisters. I love them. If they work in the beauty industry, right? The cash is good, right?

28:46But the trap is that if you're not, you know, booking all that cash, right? You're not feeding into Social Security. If you're not doing that, you look invisible. So when you need to go get a loan, it's like the cash, what cash do you have? So you can hurt yourself by that versus someone who says, okay, fine, let me understand how I need to take some of this money, you know, become visible, if you will, right? Right. Paying into the system so that it can benefit you later down the road. What about the fact of simply one of the things that hurts us more than anything is not playing in the investment game?

29:21And I mean this, so let me divert for a moment here. Okay. People are too scared of just the stock market. They are. They don't understand. It's one of the greatest ways to create wealth, period. Okay. I don't care if you're young, putting $20, $25 a week or a month in it, you get in it. That's the point. You start. If it's simply a mutual fund, whatever it takes, you do it. Life insurance, you do it, whether it's term policy to make sure that we don't have these GoFundMe situations, right, which we see all over the place. All over the place. You know, you can get a simple life insurance policy, but I also advocate, again, I'm not a financial advisor, so I just play one on TV.

29:57I have to say that, you know, but we know a lot of this, and I can speak from my experience. Mel's opinion, you know, is insurance as well, right? So get whole life or others, right, that have a savings component, right, where it builds money. And you can use that to finance education or buy a home, whatever it takes, right? It would be like a B-WELL, an I-WELL. I-U-Ls, B-U-Ls, all those things. Again, I'm not a financial planner, but I'm just saying what Mel likes to do and what he thinks about, these are the kind of things that I think are very important that all of our folks need to be thinking about because that's where the wealth is being created, right?

30:34And so, again, creating things like safety nets to make sure that you can, you know, take care of your family, yourself, and then move the way you want to move in older age. A lot of people focus on forgetting that and just focus on spending the money, you know, and this is a big challenge. And so, by the way, this isn't just simply limited to those in the art space. It's just typically that they focus on the art. Many don't focus on the business, and now they're in a trap when they get older, okay?

31:04And so we want to avoid that, and that's why I think before when we talk about the team that you build, that legal team, you've got advisors and others that are advising the artists. And it shouldn't even be a collective, right, where we're talking about, hey, man, what did you do right now as it relates to your kids? What did you put in place for the kids as it relates to college? Did you do a 529 to make sure you put some money aside for them that will just grow tax-deferred so that you don't have to worry about that? What about life insurance? Did you put a policy on them as well as yourself? Start with a term policy or do a whole life policy?

31:36I mean, these are things, the kind of conversations that we have to make sure that we know our folks are good, right? And so we need to be having that conversation all the time when we get together, even with our friends. Like, hey, did you take care of this? What are you doing right now? Right. And that also includes health. Yes. That's a big point. So I had a conversation with one of my good friends, Shannon Sias, earlier today. And one of the things he mentioned was that people don't even have, like, dental.

32:08Yeah. They don't take care of their teeth. They don't take care of their teeth. And then they lose all their teeth and they can't eat. Now it's a problem because you can't chew. Not being able to chew is a big problem. I mean, you know, for us that have, you know, health care and we have a day job. That's right. We go to the dentist. You got it. You know, like, I have an okay smile, you know, I got braces and all that. You got great teeth, man. You do, too. Yeah, no doubt. And that's because we, so we need to figure out a way to better educate our artists so that they can understand that without your help, you've got a GoFundMe page.

32:46I mean, who, what was the latest guy that had a GoFundMe page up for his help? Heaven Everett, I think. He had a GoFundMe page. Wow. And I think he said he had cancer or something like that. Yeah, yeah. And so it's over and over again. Yeah. And you were talking about some of those workshops. Yeah. Do they cover that kind of thing as well? So when I talk about the workshops, they largely focus on the business of art, right? Okay. Which is, and yeah, sideline conversation, but it's largely focused on the actual, you know, how do we set that business up?

33:23How do we protect your intellectual property? How do we help you to exploit it? How do we help you to make connections with others, right? That can help you to grow your business, okay? That's it. So this piece here, when we talk about what you and I are talking about, let's say there are business accelerators and incubators here in Chicago. The biggest one, 1871, is an incredible accelerator where you have tons of startups in there that are getting coached, right? And when you have a situation, right, where you are now going to hire people, that conversation always comes into play, the benefits, right?

33:57Health, which by the way is one of the biggest top people will forego certain levels of money to make sure they have an incredible health care plan, especially if they have kids or, you know, they know in their family there's a condition that potentially could hit them at some point, right? It's just what it is, right? So having incredible health care is one of the biggest sellers, right, of a corporation, as you know, right? Right, yeah. So when we know that our health is our wealth, health equals success.

34:28You can't be successful. You can't make the money if you don't have the health, period. So priorities are skewed, right? Absolutely. You know, where people are chasing dollars versus understanding how important it is to follow the directive to take care of that temple, right? And so you must prioritize that, and that allows you not only to have longevity, but to enjoy, you know, the, I want to say the riches that you generate right from your heart, right? And that's necessary. And not just that, the other piece is the philanthropy that we should be talking about, too.

35:00See, a lot of times people are just focused on what I can get. When you understand, and I say this again about an artist, what I love about an artist is that they are selfless as it relates to the gift that they're giving, if that makes sense. Right. Because they are giving that gift, right, to others, and then they're moving people to emotion. And so, you know, when you do that, you've got to understand the impact that you have on people. Right. But now, when you get things as it relates to your heart, some people just hold on to that.

35:31Right. And they just use it for self when that is not, I always say this, what you get. Remember, there are, I like to say, divine rules, right, you know, that are in play. Again and again. You bingo, right? And there's so many things, right, that when you're giving, if you have a gift, the idea is that you have to give it. If you have a talent, whatever that is, it's not just for you. Right. It's for you to give it to others. You're a caretaker of that talent, right? To give it to others, right? And you give it in a unique way that no one else could do it. That's what makes you unique for an artist.

36:03The next thing, especially even with your finances, right? We understand that, right, we have to take care of home, but there are others, right, we have to use that to take care of others, too. And it comes back. It's a cycle. That's why an artist, the philanthropy of it, you know, is very important in that whole cycle.

36:21So I'm a firm believer in people having a day job as an artist. Yeah. The most successful artists I've seen, either A, are just super successful on their own, and they handle all their business stuff amazingly. B, they don't. They're great as an artist, but they handle all their stuff, like, horribly. And so they always borrow money and carry it on. But, you know, on the shows, they look like they're just, you know, king of the world. Or the next thing is they have a day job.

36:54And so they spend on the weekends, but they've got a 401k, they've got health benefits and all of that. What's your perspective? On that? I mean, I think it's great. I mean, I think, you know, what works for one person may not work for another, right? But I do think, though, that, listen, if you've got real-life bills, right, real-life situations. And, by the way, we've seen this happen with tons of artists, right, where they've had a day job and they continue to grind until they got that big contract and everything popped and they did what they had to do, right?

37:26That's great. And then we have those who the job is very important. Their craft is very important. They're able to rock both of them just as well. Maybe they don't get a lot of sleep. But they're doing it, and they're doing it at a high level. I think all of it's great. I don't disabuse anyone to choose, like, you know, what works best. But I do say this, that you've got some incredible time. It's so incredible that the job is going to hold them back, right? And if that's the situation, if they've got the right team around them, somebody should be pushing them, man, to maximize that talent.

37:58So what do they do when they're 80? Like, what do they do when they're 75? Are they still going to DJ? Are they still going to, you know, be producing a bunch of records? Are they still going to fly to Europe to do a gig for an hour? Yeah. Well, I mean, Herb Kip rocked and he was, like, 77, right? So he was rocking, but that's a different type of DJ, right? I have a lot of love for Herb. But I'll say... Smooth. Yeah, that's it. He was smooth. He did a lot. But I'll say, though, that, you know, some of this can depend. I mean, we won't see too many cats 80 years old in the club on the tables, right?

38:29But maybe there is some cat out there doing it. I think, ultimately, to your point, though, now, right, you've got to have a plan. Okay. And so I think for everything that you do, because at a certain point, you know, the body's breaking down, you know, the energy's not there. You need to rest, right? And hopefully you're enjoying life for yourself and with your family. You're doing all those things that matter. But I think it gets back to your point of, you know, you've got to put in place a plan so that you can step away from that at any time, okay? Which, again, gets back to are you taking care of yourself?

39:03Are you paying yourself first? Are you paying yourself first? Right, right. You know, are you paying yourself first? Are you doing those things that are necessary so that you can enjoy, again, the spoils of all the work that you've done? Okay.

39:16How do you get good legal advice at a price you can afford?

Affordable Legal Advice

39:20Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, first off, it depends on who you talk to, right? Okay. And, okay, so let's just start with this. You can get great legal advice for no cost. Let's start there. Okay. And so, you know, I talked to you about some organizations. I'm on the board for Lawyers for Creative Arts, okay? Okay. And it's an incredible organization that works with artists of all different types of genres, whether it's music, film, writers, publishers, you name it, right?

39:51Okay. Tons of entertainment lawyers that support it, and they will provide pro bono legal support.

40:00Also, shout out to Flowers Law Group, by the way, flowerslawgroup.com. That's my firm, okay, as well, for those who don't know that. But go and take a look at what we do. But the type of or the quality of support there, I think, is incredible, right? Now, again, you know, you have to vie for an opportunity, right, to get on the list, and then someone will look at your opportunity. It could be a situation where you need intellectual property counsel, right, regarding some music trademark.

40:36It could be I want to set up a business entity. I need bylaw support. All of that. What we want people to understand is you really need to be creating a truly functional business. That's what it is. That's where you create a functional business, right, that will live beyond you, right? And so, go ahead. So if someone reached out to Flowers Law Group and said, hey, I need help. I don't know what I'm doing. Yeah. I'm a great DJ. Yeah. I'm a great producer. Like, what do you do? How do you help them with that?

41:08And, like, what does your retainer look like? I want people to have a good idea of what, you know, what's going to happen. So let me say this here. Right now, okay, so say if you were to reach out to Flowers Law Group, again, we're working on tons of things. But the idea is that we'll talk to you about what your matter is, okay? Okay. And so the first thing is, what is it, okay? And sometimes people have matters that once you consult with, you realize, oh, you really don't need a lawyer, okay? Okay. I'm going to tell you about a resource you can go. Do it yourself, right? To save yourself some money. And I believe in that because legal services can be expensive.

41:42But also, you know, a lot of times you don't need a lawyer for a lot of things right now. And I'd be straight up with you. There's technology and there are, you know, online platforms that you could leverage. It depends on the matter. I would always direct someone there. Now, if you really need a lawyer, then you can talk to me. But you've got to be ready to have that type of advice. So that way, you can now handle your situation, low cost, no cost. You got it. But really, you want to talk to a lawyer about some very complex things because lawyers will bill you. They'll take your money.

42:12Right. But I believe in trying to help people, help themselves first, keep their costs low until they really have something that's very sophisticated, okay? All right. So, one, there's a consultation. Two, now they have a matter. It depends on what the matter is, right? Is it litigation or is it transactional? Okay. And that can determine it. Does it require court? Court can increase costs as well, too, right? The complexity of the matter, the longevity of it because there's an opportunity cost to take it, and I got to keep other cases out of the way or other matters, right? So, all that can depend, right?

42:43And so, I don't want to get into the whole my hourly rate and all of that. Right, right. But we try to help people and structure things that work for them, but they have to be willing to understand that true legal advice does cost, right? But the average artist basically just says, hey, I don't really know what an attorney is. I know what an attorney is maybe, but I don't know if I need one, but I know I've got this contract. Yeah. And I know that the fact that wants me to sign it within a week. You got it. And, you know, I need help with this.

43:13Yeah. But we were talking about earlier when you said it's better to have a relationship with an attorney so that they can help you set up the whole infrastructure and you can have a plan and maybe even suggest a different team, a team of people to assist you with your business entity. This is great. This is great because this is where good attorneys are what we call trusted advisors, right, which means they cover everything. They know everything about contracts, labor and employment, bribery, money laundering, you know, business entity setup, intellectual, all of it, right?

43:48Right. Because they have to counsel on all those areas. So, they also see where the problems come in. So, it is absolutely critical, I say, that people find a lawyer, develop a relationship, even when they don't need something. And so, hey, I want to talk to you. This is what I'm thinking about. All right. Let me tell you what I think you should do, how you should set up your business. Oh, you want to do an LLC? That's cool. Why don't you also do an S-corp, right? Do that filing as well. I think you should also think about what state you want to set this business up in right now to get favorable laws.

44:20You should talk to a tax accountant as well, right, so you can get some favorable, you know, pass-through benefits from a taxation standpoint, right? Or you want to do global, okay, let's talk about some treaties that can work with your IP as well and why it's important for you to look at this country here. You need to think about those things, right? And so, what markets really will consume your type of service? Oh, I can tell you that too, right? And so, I think this is why it's great to have somebody who has vision globally and that can help you with that. People don't think about that. They don't. And also, the other piece is litigation management. So, people get into problems. A good lawyer, let me say this, most people don't know how to deal with lawyers when they have a problem.

44:55Let's say now you're being sued or let's say you've hired a lawyer and you don't really know this person and you don't know if they have your best interests at heart. Right, right, right. And so, a lot of times, you're like, I don't even trust the lawyer that I hired. You know what I mean? Right? And that person just keeps, they want you on the phone all the time. They keep billing you, right? You know, for every conversation, they let you vent and all of a sudden, they still hit you with a bill. There was no legal advice, but they're still billing you because you were venting. Right. So, what you need now is someone who can help you manage that person.

45:26Oh. Yeah. And so, this is why it's important. And I say this sometimes. This is where we talk about litigation management. Let's say you have a situation. Some people have gone through a divorce and they have a lawyer. Sometimes they wish, damn, I wish I would have known somebody who I could have trusted, even though that was my lawyer, who could have managed that person. Right. Right. You know, and they don't know how to talk to them. And they don't know that they have rights to say, I don't want you to bill me that much. Right. And by the way, oh, this bill, I don't think you should have billed me for that. Right. Right. And, oh, by the way, I don't want to pay you to train you for something when you should have already known it.

46:01Yes. That makes sense what I'm saying. Yes. So, the point is, it is absolutely, I believe. Okay. Now, again, most lawyers are super busy, so they don't have time just to talk about nothing all the time. But if somebody is really serious, right, about what they're trying to accomplish in creating a business and expanding it, like, I really need someone who probably is either on retainer or who would act as a fractional general counsel, meaning a part-time GC, meaning that is my legal, that's my lawyer.

46:33Right. Okay. And so, some people just need to understand how to move and operate as a business separate from being an artist. Wow. That good lawyer can help you with that, right. I'm glad you said that because that's something I didn't know. Yeah. You know, and I have an attorney retained right now. You know, I've told you some of my problems. Yeah. So, I think that's amazing. And I'm hoping everyone out here is listening to that because I had a very similar situation where an attorney would say, hey, let's have a meeting.

47:07Let's talk about your issue. Then, a few weeks later, send an email and say, what's going on, blah, blah, blah. You know what? Let's have another meeting. Yeah. Well, we already had a meeting about this. You know, are you going to bill me for this meeting? Right. That's my question. That's right. That's what I had. That's the question. That's right. I didn't know if I had to write taxes or not, but as a business person, that's what I do. You need to do it. But, so, it's very funny you said that. And so, I love that. What advice? And I'll say, there are some good attorneys. Let me say to my good attorneys out there, shout out to you.

47:40But we do know that there's some folks who are focused on the dollar more so than your interest in you, right? So, that's it. What's the best advice you would give a new artist? And the second part to that question is, what's the best advice you would give to a seasoned artist? Okay. Problems are totally different. So, a new artist, okay, so this is going to, I'm going to kind of go out, so this would be applicable to anyone that's in business. It is, don't just focus on making money, first off, right? Focus on making a difference, okay?

48:12Okay. And the next part of it is, how can you use your craft to benefit others? If you take that focus of, not only am I going to give my time, my talent, my treasure, how do I now use this to benefit others? See, the money is going to come if you do it the right way. But at that point, too, you're going to build a network of people that are looking to push you forward and make you successful. So, partnerships, and this will be for both, I think are absolutely important.

48:44You can't go it along and be super successful. What really allows you to be successful, and corporations show this all over the globe, partnership is how you go forward, right? Not alone, partnership. So, when you think about what you're going to do, who can I partner with? And also, who else can I pour into? So, for an established artist, what they should be doing is finding these young artists out here who are up and coming, or even some of the older ones, and whatever they've learned and benefited from, they should be sharing that in the network. They should be finding the young artists and saying, listen, here's the great thing that happened to me, but also let me tell you about the worst thing that happened.

49:18So, you can avoid that right now. And all I'm going to tell you about a person here is going to help you out. You've got to share information because that's one of the vacuums or the gaps right now, I think, in the space, right? We have got to help. We've got to take a focus. We need everybody to win in this game. And if we do that, I would say that's for both your new artists and your existing artists, right? And the other piece is, because your artists have a business mindset, you've got to have a business mindset.

49:48The art can feed you only so much, but the business can create longevity and sustainability. And having that mindset, creating partnerships, philanthropy is a big part of it. Philanthropy, by the way, doesn't always have to be money. Philanthropy, excuse me, is exactly what I said. Just giving, you know, the experiences and sharing your experiences with others, and you're helping them make them better. I want you to talk a little bit more about having a business mindset, specifically because when I was about 25, I had a business.

50:20I had a partnership with a guy, and we didn't write it down, right? We did it verbally. And then the partnership went awry because we didn't write it down, right? And as a result, the whole thing went to crap. So, however, when I looked at it retrospectively as an older person, more seasoned in business, I realized there were things I could have done to turn lemons into lemonade. I didn't know it at the time. I didn't have a mentor. Me right now, I would have totally flipped it and made a few million dollars out of the deal.

50:52So, I want you to expound a little bit more on that, that business mindset, because I didn't have it as a young man. Yeah. So, multiple things. One is, I'm talking about a few things, right, I think are important. Everyone should have an idea as to who can I sponsor? Not just mentor, but who can I sponsor? There's some incredible talent, and I want to make sure I put my name on them to help them be successful in this game. Having a business mindset is how you create a vehicle, right, that, one, shows that you're legitimate, right?

51:26People want to engage a legal entity for various reasons, right, because there are various benefits that you can get from it. Okay. You know, all the things that you do, your travel and all of that, right, running that through your business appropriately in alignment with the IRS code, right? Okay. You know, doing those things, right, which absolutely benefits you. That code is developed for businesses, right? Okay. You know, not necessarily just you and me. Right. You know, and some people would say people that have a W-2, it doesn't really help us as much, right? It taxes us more than it does a business. But think about the benefits that when you set up that business, the taxation is lower, right?

52:01You've got an entity that actually protects you personally, right, from liability, right? Right. You can hire people. And, of course, as you're hiring people, you're generating money. That means you're increasing or adding to the tax rolls. There's a lot of benefits that you get from it that you can control when you do it. And so it helps people to operate smarter, okay, so that now as they're moving forward, they can generate wealth in the right way. And I believe in wealth building, quite frankly. Obviously. So we only have a few minutes left. I want to ask you, what are you passionate about right now?

52:34I know that you're passionate about your business, your new law firm. Do you want to talk a little bit about that? Do you want to talk a little bit about that? Yeah. Yeah. So, one, definitely the law firm and then others, right? The law firm, the Flowers Law Group, after 20 years with Accenture, I branched out to do my own thing, which has a focus on tech, so emerging technology. So right now we're focused on data privacy, and that includes AI governance or artificial intelligence governance, robotics, anything that deals with drawn technology. AI with music, too? Oh, absolutely.

53:05Okay. Which is a big thing that we need to get a chance to talk about. Maybe there's another thing, because that is coming, and you can see it already out there. And it's going to put pressure on artists in all different respects. You can see what Anthropic and others are doing at OpenAI. They are looking to shift and turn the copyright law on its head by taking your intellectual property first and then saying you can opt out, which is absolutely crazy. But these are the kind of challenges artists are about to face. And so the super talented ones are going to still be here, but if you're just mediocre, you're going to have a challenge, okay?

53:40But we can talk about that separate, okay? But so the practice itself has that. We also focus on corporate and business. And then, of course, there's an international component. Estates and Trusts is a part of that, too. But the key is fractional general counsel support, which means for companies that don't have a chief legal officer or lawyer, period, we can act as that lawyer for that business on a part-time basis, right? Oh, wow. Yeah, so it's a space that's necessary for, you know, companies that are smaller but significant, right? They could be a billion dollars or lower, right?

54:11But they need that support, right? So flowerslawgroup.com? Flowerslawgroup.com. Check out the site. If you want to talk, there's a button for you to do a consultation or send an email, and we're happy to talk to you. But the passion piece that I get to that is helping our young folks, and that's really the biggest thing, right? We want to get them ready because we've got to train up that next generation of young leaders, right? And I mean young leaders that are ready to fight, meaning, you know, to help in our communities, to fight, to make their way in business, and also to own that space. That's exactly what we need.

54:42Awesome. Did you have any questions, Lauren, that you wanted to throw at them at the end? Thank you so much, Louie and Mel, for all this great advice and your great comments. It was fantastic. I don't have any further things. But, you know, again, our goal is to make sure that, you know, young people know that they can go to somebody, what they should be doing, and that our mature adults who are having issues right now, who are ill, et cetera, they need to protect their families. And so how are they doing that?

55:13And that's why I'm all we wanted to really focus on. I think the main things I want people to take from this conversation is, number one, get an attorney, you know, right away if you can. Number two, save your money, you know, and at least start thinking about what you're going to do to retire. You know, Melvin talked about an exit strategy with your company. That's something any business person considers as an exit strategy. When they start a company, what's my exit strategy?

55:44You should be thinking of the same thing as a DJ, as a producer. What's your exit strategy? I know a few producers that are thinking about selling their labels or doing different things, and they have, you know, publishing deals with, like, plays and movies. You got it. And that is their annuity. You got it. You know, it's a big difference between some of our producers and artists, they have it figured out, but a lot of us don't.

56:15You got it. And so that's the difference. And I want people to start thinking about it, and I want to help us to get to the point where we don't need a GoFundMe when someone passes away or when they get sick. And let me add to that final point, if I can. Just that GoFundMe piece. The whole notion of estates and trusts is something that we don't do a great job at, right? Meaning, you know, it's a scary conversation for many of our people, right? When they have to talk about a will, a power of attorney. Yes. But it is necessary because this is where we lose out. So just simply having insurance, having a will, a power of attorney for health and finance, and also looking at a trust and what a trust can do for you as it relates to real estate property and other types of things where you can determine and direct, you know, those assets to people when you pass, right?

57:01So they're things that people, we need to think about as a group, and it is something where we fail a great deal at. Okay. We'll do station identification with WNUR 89.3 FM in HD1, Evanston, Chicago. Thank you, Mel. Nice job. Thank you, Louie. Next week, Wednesday, DJ Kevin McCall. Oh, wow. Okay. So check us out. All right. All right. All right. Bye, everyone. Bye. Thank you. Thank you. Nice job. Completely yet, but.

57:32Oops.

57:34Put you back up. I think you're still going. I'm going to turn it back up.

57:40There we go. Thanks, everyone. I hope we all learned something. It's all about hiring and making a relationship with legal counsel now. Get to know Mel now, others now, and create that relationship so they don't charge you as much as they want. They might. You just got it.

58:00Nice job, man. Nice job. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.