Frederick Dunson, DJ Lady D, Max Chavez, Dani Deahl, CTRLZORA 2023 House Music Festival

Introduction to Vintage House Show

0:00You're tuned in to the Vintage House Show, home to the original stories of the history of house music, as told by the legends, pioneers, and icons. Hosted by Kevin Mega McFall, Lori Branch, and Lauren Lowry. Right now, we're going to talk about activism and the fight to preserve Chicago's house history.

Warehouse Nightclub Endangered

0:36The endangered status of the building where house music was born, the legendary Warehouse Nightclub, illuminated the urgent need to preserve Chicago's house history. And so, the Chicago House Music Festival Conference, DK's Department of Cultural Affairs and Special Events, in conjunction with the Vintage House Show, Delectable Music, and Mamami, we thought this would be a really timely conversation to have.

Community Reaction to Endangered Status

1:10We were all taken aback when we saw that the warehouse was on the endangered list of buildings that could be demolished. And so, when that word got out, people went into action. And, boy, we went into action. So, this panel is going to talk to people who were integral in that effort of saving the warehouse. And, you know, that intergenerational effort, because folks young and old were working on that.

1:46And we're going to talk about that as an example of ways in which community can come together to preserve house. But we're also going to talk about other ways that people are preserving house music and trying to live up to the ideals of house currently and going forward into the future, how to carry house through, right? So, using the past to be a beacon and a way to live in today's society.

Panel Moderator Introduction

2:14So, our moderator today is Dani Diehl. Yay. Yes, you can clap.

2:25Dani is a DJ producer and journalist. She's done a lot over the past few decades to really shape music. She is an expert on music technology and AI in music. And works for an amazing music tech company. And I just thought that Dani would be a great moderator to have this discussion.

2:57Dani is frequently moderating panels at South by Southwest. And she's a Chicago treasure. And I just wanted her to be a part of this. So, thank you, Dani, for saying yes. And being in town. She's frequently traveling. So, that's, you know, a good thing.

Panelist Introduction

3:16Our next guest is Max Chavez from Preservation Chicago.

3:23Okay, come on. We've got to get some energy in here because I'm not feeling all that. Okay. But, no, come on. We're here to celebrate house music this weekend. So, we're starting here. And I want all this energy. Okay. So, I'm going to give you some energy, too. Okay. Max Chavez is Director of Research and Special Projects at Preservation Chicago. Where he focuses on elevating communities and architecture underrepresented by historic preservation. So, I'm like, I'm normally around here, but, you know, I hope you like that reverb.

4:04Okay. So, he focuses on elevating communities and architecture underrepresented by historic preservation. He's a graduate of New York University and London's historical and sustainable architecture program. He was also honored as a Mildred Colony Diversity Scholar by the National Trust for Historic Preservation in 2019. And currently serves as the Delcomono Chicago Board Member. Thank you, Max Chavez, for being on our panel today.

4:38Okay. To the right of Max, we have Frederick Dunson.

4:44See? That was. Okay. We're talking history here. Frederick is the founder, president, and executive director of the Frankie Knuckles Foundation, FKF for short. The Frankie Knuckles Foundation is a not-for-profit educational and cultural organization dedicated to the advancement of Frankie Knuckles' mission as the global ambassador of house music through media, conservation, and public events, continuing and supporting the causes he advocated. The FKF is a recognized 501c3 and focuses on these initiatives.

5:18Music in schools, LGBTQ youth, homelessness, AIDS research, prevention, and diabetes research education. Welcome, Frederick Dunson. And our next panelist, Zora Murphy, aka Control Zora, in the dance music world of Chicago, is a genderqueer music curator, singer, black femme event collective called Hour Nine, co-founder,

5:54and DJ, coming out of the DIY scene of Chicago, aimed at contributing to keeping the electronica dance scene alive through house and techno, world music, and more. Zora pays homage to the history and liberation of music within communities of color across genres, and that's their central focus, alongside perpetuating the tradition of house music in its originator, Chicago, by black and queer culture.

6:26So, there's more that I can say, Zora has played venues like the Post Chicago, Potlachie, I don't know how you say that, Club, The Lodge, Celeste, the MCA, Smart Bar Metro, and Movement Detroit Actor parties. So, give it up for Zora. Thank you all for being a part of this panel.

Panel Discussion Begins

6:53I'm going to turn it over to Danny, to talk to you about preserving house and the importance of it. Thank you, Darlene. As she mentioned, this panel is called Activism, the Fight to Preserve House's History. So, I'm going to take a temperature check in the room. I'm pretty sure that everyone already knows the answer to this. But who's familiar with the Warehouse Nightclub?

7:18All right. We've got maybe one or two hands that stayed down, so this is good. I assume if you're here, then you already know the Warehouse and its legacy and history and the story between its lineage and Frankie Knuckles. But for the few folks in the room that maybe don't know that history, I would like to give a brief overview about what it is that we're going to be talking about today and why it is so crucially important right now.

Warehouse Nightclub History

7:45So, Max, would you like to take it? Sure, yeah. Take it? Absolutely.

7:53So, for those not familiar, the Warehouse is a nightclub at 206 South Jefferson. It was built in the early 1900s as just an industrial building. It served an industrial purpose for decades and decades. In 1975, it was purchased by Robert Williams. Two years later, it opened up as the Warehouse. It was sort of his answer to the, you know, Chicago's answer to the New York nightclubs.

8:23It was something to be on that level of nightlife. And he brought on Frankie Knuckles to be the resident DJ for that space. And, you know, it's commonly attributed and generally understood that that is the birthplace of house music.

8:41It was open for five years. And just within five years, you know, from the Warehouse, it spread, you know, through cassettes and eventually into records and went to people's homes. And eventually spread around the world and house music becomes a phenomenon from this one single industrial building in the West Loop. So, you know, an incredibly important space. It's very rare that you're able to find a single building that you can point to and say a genre of music was created here. It was birthed in this place.

9:11And, I mean, maybe I can just talk about real quick the fact that, you know, like it was, we said it was endangered. And through a really wonderful campaign in which everybody really showed up in a big way, the building as of Wednesday afternoon is now an official Chicago landmark and protected for all time.

9:33I actually didn't know that it became a landmark. I didn't know that it became a landmark. Oh, okay. Can you speak a little bit about the journey to get there? And let's take a big step back. What does it actually mean when a building is marked as endangered?

9:51That's a really good question. So, I guess we can kind of start in late fall, which is really when this whole situation happened. We announced the building as being one of the most endangered sites in the city of Chicago earlier in March. This was because the building had been for sale, listed for sale, and the marketing materials described the building as being perfect for redevelopment, which is in our code word is that they're going to try to demolish it.

10:21So, that's what it means when a building is usually endangered, and it can be endangered for many multitudes of reasons, either neglect, it's not falling apart. But in this situation, we knew that it was being kind of pegged as, you know, not necessarily a building, but a lot. You're buying it for the land. And so, when we found out about that, there was some outreach to the owners, to which we were met with silence, and they didn't talk to us about the situation.

10:53So, obviously, we were very concerned.

10:58That sort of silence indicates that there's probably plans that they don't want to tell us about. So, in March, we listed the building as being one of the seven most endangered sites in the city of Chicago. We knew just because of its significance and the different important stories that are connected with the building that there was really no way that we could lose this. So, we listed it. The immediate outpouring of support and anger and concern was unbelievable.

11:29People were so concerned. So, we started a petition. Many people in here, maybe you signed the petition. So, you see, I know. We had so many people who were so concerned that this building could be lost. So, people signed the petition. They showed up in the biggest way imaginable. And I remember the first few days, all the signatures were coming from Chicago, and then it spread like wildfire. We were getting signatures from all over the world. People really showing up and saying that we cannot lose this building.

12:00House music changed my life. It's an important part of why I am the way that I am today, the community that I live in. And, you know, luckily, the city of Chicago really took to it. And that's kind of, you know, the rest is history. They really went for it, and here we are today. It's a landmark.

Landmark Status Achieved

12:20Frederick and Zora, can you speak to your involvement during this process of trying to get the building to landmark status? I think you have a microphone on your seat. I think it's on the side of you. Oh, you have it. Oh.

12:41Oh. Yeah, I was like, yeah. It was big. Surprise. Hello, hello, hello. So I'm going to do the colorful or the color play-by-play on how FKF got involved.

13:00The day that I saw the article that listed the spaces, of course, I was shocked when I saw the warehouse, 206. Most people who went to 206 calls it 206, so we don't call it the warehouse. We just call it 206. When I saw it there, I said, hmm. So I called two of the co-directors for the foundation, and one of them, at that point, his wife was an alderman. Now she's an ex-alderman. And I said to him, I said, hmm, this is something I think we should get involved in.

13:34In the meantime, later that afternoon, I go online and I see an email from Max saying, oh, we've been trying to get in contact with you. And then, you know, this is going on, let's talk. I think I called him that day or the next day. In the meantime, one of the co-directors works for an agency, a chamber of commerce agency in the West Loop. And so FKF is located in the West Loop, and her and I had worked on another committee together.

14:10And I mentioned it to her, and she said, oh, well, we kind of know what to do here. So at that point, we started reading the rest of the information regarding the petition, et cetera, et cetera. I then talked to Max again and says, okay, what do you need from us? So immediately when I talked to Joe Shanahan, who was the president of our advisory committee, he said, oh, I think we need to do some things.

14:42We talked about it. So we started reaching out to people we knew. In the meantime, we doubled back, and at that point, we found out who the alderman in that particular ward was, reached out to him, had a conversation with him. And, of course, he was like, well, yeah, he didn't really know about it. He knew about it by seeing it in the paper, but he didn't know the history of the building itself. And so we kind of schooled him that afternoon on exactly what the building was.

15:13Ironically, he knew what house music was, so I was a little surprised.

15:18And he said, okay, anything you want to do. So at that point, we kind of circled back to each other and said, okay, what as an organization can we do? And so we just started putting our head together and said, okay, look, call your friends, any of your sources you know, any of the people you know, and let's get the message out that this is happening, and let's see what happened. Well, little did we know, it started rolling, and it started rolling fast.

15:49So the phone call started, and then the email started, and then people, you know, two things. They loved the warehouse, and they loved Frankie. So that made it an easy sell.

16:02It just, it was amazing, and I would call Max periodically and say, huh, what's going on? Do you, did you, you know, then the hearing started, and the first hearing happened, and it went well. Then there was the second hearing. Then there was the third hearing. And so at one point, I kept going, okay, it was just smooth. There was no, there was no pushback from the owners of the building because at one of the hearings, he publicly said, oh, we have no intentions.

16:39He wasn't doing anything to the building, but you know how that goes.

16:44And ironically, he has said steadfastly that that's what his intent is. So the rest, as Max said, is history. Things started rolling. I was told where to be, when to be, and I was there. I would be remiss in not recognizing that this was a joint effort by a number of people and just not one, there's no I in we. This was a joint effort by the community, by the world as a whole, because, again, of what they thought about Frankie and what they thought about house music and what they thought about the warehouse.

17:25So I'd like to thank all of you for supporting that effort. Otherwise, we wouldn't be sitting here talking about it now.

17:37I think that's it. I think them above anyone probably have the best insight on how the warehouse was preserved. But I honestly do agree that it was a joint effort. I remember that I had seen the news first on Facebook and then on Instagram. And a lot of me and my peers, who are also just current-day DJs, we kind of just wanted to know what to do to help.

18:07I remember just trying to go to other people in organizations or one of my close friends, Fingy, who's really close with Lady D. We were just trying to figure out what ways could we tangibly work to preserve such an important historical space for our culture. I remember it was just a little tricky because our first line of, like, attack was, of course, a petition. We've done petitions before and tried to, like, preserve other important spaces.

18:40But it kind of seemed like there wasn't much that we could directly do in terms of the places that we were trying to appeal to, like preservation, Chicago. We were all on the same side. Like, we all wanted to collectively save the warehouse. So pretty much I did what I can do best was just put the word out. I had a pretty big reach. And a lot of the current generational DJs were really close and we collaborated with each other.

19:10So I feel like our battlefield is definitely social media because those posts were spread thousands of times. I included it in my link tree, my Twitter.

19:22I'm a firm advocate of using just, like, your reach for something important or something tangible. And the warehouse was definitely something that I believed in and thought was extremely important. And I was so, so happy and so many of my friends were just ecstatic. And I can imagine all of you, we were all just extremely happy to see that the warehouse was preserved, even though it kind of seemed like a little bit of a bleak situation. I got to talk with Robert earlier, Robert Williams, about, like, the warehouse actually in front of it.

19:56And it was just kind of a really beautiful moment to just have, like, us being so many generations apart and him literally being a part of the origins of house and just, like, us kind of sharing that victory together. It was a very sweet moment. And thank you all for holding it down. Thank you. Thank you. Now, Frederick, according to you, this was all quite easy and everything passed through without a hitch.

20:27But I'm sure there were some moments behind the scenes where you ran into some road bumps. Can you talk about anything that you... Hiccups in the road. Hiccups in the road. So, those hiccups are from people who, for lack of... Those hiccups are from people who really don't understand. You know, it's really funny. Sometimes people will tell you that they mean you well, and in essence, they really don't because of something that is happening that's not concerning them, and they're not involved in it.

21:01It's a strange paradox of life, but it's the truth. And so, some people would be like, and I'm like, okay, yes or no. Now, ironically, the Europeans and the Asians, when they got a hold of this, they were like, oh, what else can we do? What else, you know, besides is there something else we can do? And at that point, we didn't know, we being Preservation Chicago and FKF, didn't know what was going to happen.

21:35Well, we didn't have any, like I said, pushback, so that made it easy. But as far as everything else went, it really was easy, I have to admit. It really was. There were some moments that, you know, I kind of went, hmm, okay. It was just a very, it seemed things was just kind of going at a snail's pace, and then all of a sudden, it would speed up, and then it slowed down, and then toward the end, it slowed, and then it went really fast. I mean, it was less than two minutes by the time Alderman Carlos Rosa, Ramirez Rosa, read.

22:12By the time he read it, it was like a bat of an eye, and I'm sitting next to Matt, and I'm going, okay, we thought, in my mind, this was going to be pomp and circumstance. There was going to be, oh, there was going to be all of these questions, and there was going to be people making statements. That happened the day before the full council and the zoning committee, and it really was touching, that particular hearing. But other than that, it was really a smooth ride, I have to admit. That's amazing. And all of you have talked at some point about how activism requires building coalitions and partnerships.

22:48Can you talk about some of the communities that you brought together in order to make this effort successful? And how did you go about it? I think for FKF, we have a varied kind of membership on the board. So you have Joe Shanahan, you have Alan King. For those who aren't in the know. You know, Alan King's the chosen few, so, of course, he's got a strong presence on media.

23:18Joe has a strong presence because of Smart Bar and Metro. And Carla, because of all of the political and the community work she does in the West Loop, so she's got contacts. And then, of course, like I said, people who follow Frankie, all you had to do was say, look, this is what was going on. So, it made it really easy. Is this working? Is this on? Okay, great. So, I want to say that a lot of times, especially when you're doing preservation advocacy, like you said, getting a coalition together, people who are working together, is so crucial to, one, not just getting support for the story.

24:00But, you know, you really want to be able to tell the story accurately. You want to make sure that the people that are involved feel like they're being heard and that they are getting their side of the story told in a very, you know, fair and holistic way.

24:17Usually, and this is a very, the landmarking effort for the warehouse is super extraordinary. And, like we were saying, it went so quickly and so smoothly that a lot of the steps that happen along the way that are a lot longer, these were very much compressed. So, when you're organizing for a preservation effort, you want to take the time to really reach out to everybody, get to know, you know, who are the players in this effort. We got very lucky with the warehouse and saving the warehouse in the sense that the publicity was so widespread and the attention was everywhere

24:52that the people, the stakeholders, everybody who really should be involved came to us. You know, everybody wanted to get involved and so it kind of became less of an outreach effort for us and more of just that, okay, everyone's here in front of us, let's organize. And get everybody kind of working, you know, at the same pace together. And so, normally there would probably have been a lot more conversations with the city and trying to work with the owners about, you know, what are your plans? How can we find some sort of middle ground?

25:23If you do want to demolish, can you, can we, all those conversations never really happened because it all just went so quickly. But, I mean, in that sense, we still were able to get everybody together and make sure that, you know, we were telling the story of House correctly, the story of Frankie Knuckles accurately. So, I think ultimately we pulled it off, but it looks a lot different the way that it happened than it normally does.

Storytelling and Community Organizing

25:48Yeah. And what were some of the strategies that you employed in order to raise awareness about the importance of the warehouse within the broader community? And how did those efforts contribute to the overall success of the campaign? I know Zora mentioned a little bit about social media being the ultimate platform personally. What were some of the other tactics that were employed?

26:11So, certainly social media. A petition is usually a pretty common tool sometimes. I think one of the tactics, and this is maybe a little bit more of a nebulous thing, but I think one of the things that we did really, really well telling the story about the warehouse is that we really touched on the fact that when we heard about this, I knew that the warehouse is a special story to tell. Because there are so many identities and so many important facets of Chicago that are represented in this story.

26:49So, it's not just, I mean, it's obviously a music history. You know, there's a lot of music that plays a big part in it, but, you know, it's about, you know, it's about black people. It's about brown people. It's about the queer community. It's about all these different aspects coming to play inside of the warehouse. And so, I think when we were telling that story, we really wanted to hit those very hard because not only is it, not only is it you're telling the story accurately, but you want to make sure that you have the support of those communities and that they feel seen in the story that you're telling.

27:22And it worked. I mean, in a lot of ways, we had different coalitions or different groups, rather, reaching out to us representative of those interests and those communities. And so, I think that's one tactic that we pulled off, you know, rather well that was very successful, that people really felt seen in the story that we were telling.

27:44How did, Darlene talked about this a little bit in her intro about how there was an intergenerational effort with this preservation. What exactly does that tangibly mean? Can you talk about how there were multiple generations involved in this effort and how that was realized? I'll give you a quick example to my right and to my left. I worked at the warehouse, so that tells you how old I am. Here's someone, you know, this is the next generation.

28:19And I don't know how old Max is, but I'm assuming it's somewhere between me and this young lady. I'm assuming. So, that makes it intergenerational in and of itself.

28:33Zora, could you maybe talk a little bit about... I feel like that was perfectly said. I mean, I agree. I try. No, you succeed. I mean, I feel like me working so closely and within house, like, for you to enter in that sphere, at least correctly, or wanting to, like, pay, like, actual homage to the genre, you're gonna have to be intergenerational. I mean, half of the people that I talked to about the warehouse knew, like, the severity of what was going to happen were people decades older than me.

29:15The knowledge that I got personally about the history, I obviously wasn't alive to be at the warehouse. But, I mean, that intergenerational knowledge was so relevant to try to get my current generation to fight, like, hard to preserve it. So, yeah. I mean, it was all of us doing our own efforts to fight for this preservation. But, I mean, without, like, the knowledge that was given to us from earlier generations and us working all together, it wouldn't have been possible.

29:49I think it speaks to the power of house music that it's... It has impacted so many generations for so long, whether you were there at the warehouse, whether you grew up listening to house music because your parents were listening to it. Maybe you discovered house music recently through the many artists that are incorporating house music in very powerful ways.

30:12I will say that when it comes to preservation efforts, so often, or so rarely, rather, we don't get the chance to tell stories that are so recent. It's very rare that you're landmarking a building that is significant because of something that happened maybe just 40 or 50 years ago. There's this idea that, you know, something's got to be 100 years old to be historic. And in this case, it's simply not true. I mean, just in 50 years, house music has impacted so many different ways.

30:45And so it's incredible to be able to work on and research and tell the story that has involved people that are still alive, you know? And we got to talk to people who live this history, and we're still, you know, getting those stories down. So, you know, focusing on in an intergenerational sense, being able to talk to people that were there and were alive for it was just an incredible privilege. Well, I'd like to hear more. You keep talking about the importance and the power of storytelling.

31:18I would love to hear if there are any specific stories or anecdotes from the campaign to Save the Warehouse that highlight the power of community organizing and activism.

31:32Hmm.

31:35I think when it comes to... I think because of the culture of, or the nature of the beast of what that club represented, people were compelled to do something. I think it's just the way that they were brought up at the time.

31:59It's just became second nature. Yeah, I mean, there's too many stories to be told. Hi, Robert. Ladies and gentlemen, Robert Williams. So, let me get off script for a minute and thank Robert because none of this would have not happened if it wasn't for Robert and the people that started that movement. So, thank you, Robert. So, there's too many stories to be told and not enough time to tell them.

32:38Fair enough. So, the building, the warehouse, is not only historically significant for its association with house music, but also for the architectural and its cultural importance. So, now that it has this designation, what happens to it?

32:59Okay. I'm going to take a shot in the dark at this one. Take a shot about what? Well, it's privately owned, so there's just so much that can be done. The city has indicated what they, or I should say one particular branch of the city has indicated of what they thought should be done. So, now that the approval and the designation is there, those conversations can begin on what should happen, how it should happen.

33:32What can be done, because you remember, that building is privately owned and the owners have a right to say, we don't want any of that foolishness in front of us. I mean, they have that right. And there's a law school across the street. So, you got to be mindful of what the neighborhood and what the neighbors will and won't allow. It's a question that we've received a lot recently about what do you think should happen to the building.

34:03And again, like Frederick said, it's privately owned. So, you know, as of right now, the question of what could happen to it isn't really one that any of us can answer. But I think that it's inherently such a powerful building, and there's so many different things that could be done that speak to house music, to dance music. Could it become a house music museum, or an archive, or an event space? I mean, all those different things are certainly in play if the building were to ever go up for sale again. I think if it were ever to go up for sale again, it wouldn't stay a law firm.

34:34I'll just say that much right now. It will never be offices ever again, I would say that much. There's too much just magic about the building. And, you know, at the very least, in its current form, I hope that it can become a mecca for people. And now that people know that the building really exists, it can be a place for folks to come visit and pay their respects to the building and, you know, be in that place where this was created. See, it's funny, when the landmark designation journey took a life of its own.

35:11So, of course, there were people coming out of the woodworks. And the one thing I constantly said was that we, the people who went to that space, felt that it was our mecca. So it's funny that you say that same word, because that's the way we looked at it. I mean, we thought about it every weekend, every weekend, you look forward to going there. And regardless of what was going on, because there's always something going on, there was always maybe a theme or not. But just the fact that you had a space that was safe that you could go to, and you see like-minded people, and you'd hear some really great music.

35:45So I want to move this last portion into the activism part of the conversation.

Practical Actions for Preservation

35:54What are some practical actions that individuals can take to contribute to the preservation and archiving of Chicago's house history beyond this fight for the warehouse? So, you asked earlier about roadblocks and things that were kind of difficult in the effort. I'll say one of the things that was a little bit trickier is that when we were announcing the building as one of the seven most endangered sites in Chicago, what we normally do is we'll write up a pretty lengthy kind of history about every site that's on our list.

36:28And a lot of the buildings that we, you know, that we've covered in the past, they tend to have, if not at least like a long history about the building itself. There's, you know, a famous architect that we can pull from and get a lot of history there. There's usually a lot of resources. And when it comes to trying to research the story about house music, there are books written, but, you know, there's not like one central source you can go to. There's not a house archive or anything like that.

36:58And so, I think moving forward when we're looking at how do we preserve house history and all of that, it's, you know, we've saved the building now. The brick and mortar is there. But now it's really about trying to contain these stories somewhere. And whether that looks like, you know, recording oral histories of people who were there, of the people who were in that space, who, you know, made the decisions and were creating the music, that's one part of it.

37:29And getting those photos, you know, a lot of these photos are just sitting in people's personal collections at home. They're in photo albums, they're in a box in the garage. And it's, we wish we could have seen more of those photos when we were doing this process. You know, there's only so many out there. And I'm sure that they tell a whole other story that we haven't even known about, even just, you know, the physical records and the tapes and all that. I mean, that's all part of that story. So, you know, these things are not as tangible as a building, but they're just as important and just as crucial to how we tell the story of house music.

38:00And the idea that has been constantly going through my head, through the conversation of, even some years ago, before this even happened, I would always drive by the building and go, what if, what if, what if? So, in talking to one of the commissioners in the city, I said to him, what about an interactive kiosk that would contain music as well as some sort of video so that people, when they go by there, they could press, they could look at, it gives them something more than just a plaque.

38:42And at one of the hearings, he even said, he said, yeah, well, I think the city needs to do more than just a plaque. So, I want to keep him on his word about that. And from an individual point of view, what could somebody do to engage in helping to preserve this legacy?

39:02It's hard to say. As Max said, it's hard. We can't assume, we can't think, we can't even predict what may happen until the powers that be says, oh, okay, here's our ideal. And we work with the community at large and say, this is what we think should happen or a recommendation. Because aesthetically, it's got to make sense to that neighborhood and that building because the owners, again, may not want a whole lot of traffic because they're running their business there day in, day out.

39:38And I think if there's maybe one concrete step that could come to mind, if you are interested in trying to work towards preserving house history and this legacy, is, you know, feel free to reach out to Preservation Chicago. Or, I don't want to put you up for it, but, you know, Frankie Knuckles Foundation, too. I mean, share with us the stories, the photos that you have, the materials. I mean, we would love to be able to document all of these things and archive them in some way or digitize them. I mean, it's one thing to have it in your home and know that it's safe, but to have it in a place where other people can access it, you know, we can work towards that goal of having all of these places somewhere central, somewhere safe, that these stories are protected forever.

40:20You know, anybody is one heartbeat away from losing any of these materials and they never, you know, they never are soon again. So, it's, you know, it's important to keep those things and think of it as a very tangible product that you can save. And Zora, how do you feel that you contribute and what would you recommend to other people? I just wanted to comment that I thought, well, I just wanted to touch back base. I feel like a lot of people were just up in air about, like, what should happen to the warehouse.

40:53And obviously, with the building owners in mind, I feel like the initial thought that I had and a lot of people did was just to make it a memoriam in some type of way. Make it a museum or the kiosk idea I think is actually beautiful. I think that would be an amazing way, but like I said earlier, we don't really know what's going to be able. But I definitely wanted to just emphasize that I think that that's a beautiful idea. But I think personally, what I do to keep, like, the preservation of house music alive is, I don't, I just feel like during the entire trajectory of me wanting to be a DJ and contribute to the culture was just through me growing up and becoming just infatuated by the culture.

41:48Because the remnants of it is just consistently alive through, like, those older than me around Chicago. There's always stories of just, like, the spaces that house music created. I feel like it's just extremely important just this generationally now.

42:09The music is beautiful and it's good, but also, like, the spaces that were created at the time also had, like, an intention behind it. Like, spaces like the warehouse, like Paradise Garage, like, they were made as just, they were able to connect people of all backgrounds, all ethnicities, all sexualities, all genders. There was a common bridge between everyone and that was the music. It was a safe space.

42:41It negated violence. It was a communal place for healing. It was a communal place for liberation to get your feelings out. It, like, house music was extremely saved so many people's lives. It saved my father's life. It saved my life, honestly. So I just, I think it's just really important. And I feel like a lot of the people that I collaborate with now, and, like, the DJ spheres and just kind of, like, where the culture of it is going, it's just really making an emphasis on just, like, intentionality of the spaces that we create.

43:17Like, being sure to highlight the culture behind the music and not just have events and keep the tradition going without, like, the actual tradition of it. So I just think that that's extremely important whenever I get any chance to just nod back to it, like, emphasize that, like, house music came from queer people, black people, marginalized people. Like, I just, I think that's just so important to say every single time because without that story, without that narrative, like, house music would not be house music.

43:53I want to pull on that thread just a little bit more. How can we, you are obviously the most engaged, but how do we engage younger generations at large to appreciate and carry forward this important heritage? How do we make everyone like you? How do we make everyone like me? The level of... Oh, my friends are like, oh. Yeah. So sorry.

44:19Oh, I mean... That's not easy. That's not hard to do. Oh, I mean, I get that. Okay. That's a good question. I don't... I think it's just, like... I think that's still an answer that I'm finding myself, honestly. I think it's just through genuine connection, genuine conviction. I think, like, I have turned so many people to house music, opened so many people's eyes to house music, through just me previously having a reach, to the point where I felt comfortable just opening others' eyes to the culture that is so rich and flowing around them.

45:00Like, I go to the art banks. I go to the warehouses. As I go to the private events, I take the time to try to talk with the DJs' generations older than me, the curators' generations older than me. And I try to, like, give their stories the platform that they deserve already or kind of maybe gets lost in translation through, like, the passage of time, which is understandable. But I don't know, I feel like, like, I have just lived into wanting to archive and using that as a channel for other people.

45:35It's showing the joy, showing the liberation, showing that there's hundreds of people dancing no matter how old or young you are, like, that we are all on the same page, I think has turned a lot of people into realizing that, like, house music isn't just, like, a popular uns-uns, because that's what it is in pop culture now. But, like, it's a lot deeper than that and it's something that should be handled with care and preserved. True house music. Yeah. So, coming back to the warehouse, can you, can any of you speak to, beyond the immediate impact of having saved the building,

46:15what does this represent for you personally and what do you feel it represents to the wider house community at large?

46:25Should I go first? Go first. For me, as a historic preservationist and a researcher, it's hard for me to put into words what this moment and the saving of this building really symbolizes. I think that historic preservation for, you know, in some ways justified, in other ways not so justified. There is a stereotype about the field that it only tells a story about, you know, dead, old white men.

46:59And maybe there's, part of that is true. There's a lot of underrepresented identities and stories not being landmarked, not being represented in our built environment. And I think that there's maybe also an idea that there is no interest by preservationists to tell that story, which could not be further from the truth. And obviously, as it has been indicated by the city, moving to landmark this building so quickly is that there is an interest and a passion by the city as well to tell these stories.

47:31So seeing the warehouse become a landmark, not just become a landmark, but become a landmark quickly and with urgency really gives me hope that there's sort of a new era for preservation coming and that the warehouse is not just an outlier. It's not a blip. It's not a blip. This is going to be the type of stories that there very much is an appetite for and that we hopefully will continue to see, you know, more and more of these things told.

48:02When it comes to house music and the house community and even, you know, black and brown communities and queer people, specifically black and brown queer people, I think giving the warehouse landmark status really validates the existence of these communities and the lives that they lived and the contributions that they've made to the culture and music, Chicago's history. It kind of, it kind of, it kind of, it kind of, it gives them, you know, it gives them, it puts them on a pedestal and it says that their lives and the things that they experienced and that they went through really matter and that's why we're honoring this.

48:42These, these, not just the building, but these lives and their contributions, these are the landmark.

48:49To piggyback on Max's idea, I think that this journey, because that's what I like to call it a journey, this journey gave people an opportunity or, or a house heads as, as you know, they're called or we're called house has the opportunity to show their love for the culture and the music. Because it's, because it's not, it wasn't about Robert, it wasn't about Frankie, it was about, to me, it was about the culture in one sense, but yes, it was in the other sense about Frankie and a love letter to Frankie to let him know that how much people appreciated and loved him.

49:30And, and, and, and, and it showed. Yeah. Oh, um, yeah, I just wanted to add that I just think it was extremely encouraging and just validating to have us all, like we touched back on inter-generationally, just band together. Um, and being able to have our voice heard in a situation that just didn't seem like it was, um, the most optimistic, um, cause I feel like the turning point of us not really knowing the correct steps of us, um, directly appealing for the building to not be demolished,

50:10but still saying, since we all collectively care about this effort, let's make as much noise as possible, um, and that to work, I think, was just extremely beautiful and relieving, and it just gives us the incentive to keep pushing for stuff that is as equally important. And I have one last question.

Audience Questions and Final Thoughts

50:30I did want to save just a few moments at the end for questions from the audience. So, looking forward, what are the long-term goals for preserving Chicago's house history, and how can we ensure that future generations recognize its importance? Interpret that however you would like, whether it's a suggestion for a call to action, or ways that people can get involved with local organizations, or personal steps that someone can take in their day-to-day life. Well, I hope, and I, and I think it's, I think it's clear now that, um, I think a lot of this effort has, has kind of reawakened the importance of, of house in people's minds, um, and people who weren't as aware of it, I think are very much aware now, and they understand, you know, that there is a whole legacy that begins with this one building.

51:21Um, one of the things that really struck me, um, when we were getting a lot of people outreaching to us, was how many people are still, you know, young people specifically, are still involved, um, in the legacy and the culture of house music. Whether they're making the music, whether they're researching it, studying it, whether they're dancing to it, um, and so one of the ways that I think that we can continue to preserve that legacy is, you know, think of you, especially as, as a creator of something that exists within that, you know, the world of house.

51:59I mean, really document your stuff, save your materials, record things, file things away, um, you know, if you're, uh, if you open up event spaces, you never know if you're going to be creating the next warehouse, you know, so all those things are extremely, extremely important, um, so I would just encourage, like, you know, folks who are still in that space, think about the importance of, of really what you're doing, it's not, you're not doing this, you know, 50 years after the creation of house, you're still in that culture, um, and, you know, you could,

52:29create the next big thing and not even know that you're doing it at the time.

52:33Patrick?

52:36I think that, um, when you find an opportunity to validate the existence of who and what we were, then you should take that opportunity because this young lady and her generation is going to be able to carry the story. There's, there's, um, I, I, I hate to kind of go back, but there in, um, Mad Max Beyond the Thunderdome, there's a scene where this, the kids are talking to the other kids and they're talking about the story of the plane and the kid, in essence, says, we have to tell our story to the other, to the youngers so that they'll be able to tell the story and they'll be able to tell the story.

53:21And that's what we have to do when that opportunity presents itself.

53:27And last thoughts? Um, yeah, I, whenever I can, I just always, with the consent of those that I talk to, the conversations that I've been able to have with, um, just like earlier tastemakers and DJs, um, it's, it's just archiving. It's, it's just archival history gold. And it's just so many of them walking around us constantly where I just, I always encourage people to just take the time to ask, take the time to like hear out, um, just history and culture that is so important and can just immediately enrich you and you can apply to your life every day.

54:13I, I, I try to move through the spaces that I'm in with a certain intentionality. I think that, like, being able to recreate spaces, like, adjacent to the warehouse is just so crucial. Spaces that are, even if it's a little bit more DIY, it might be the most liberative space that you could ever step into. Um, I, there are other collectives that try to make it their mission statement to just stay true to the roots of how parties were, make sure that it's communal, make sure that there's food people are getting nourished, make sure that, like, the tradition of using turntables is, is pushed as well.

55:00Like, like, these are all skills that we all collectively learn together, like, that is history that I, I just think is just so important, like, as important as preserving any other aspect of culture to just continue to pass down. Um, and as long as I'm DJing or as long as I'm, like, blessed to be involved in, like, this culture, I will always continue to try to do that. Or connect with other like-minded people through those who have already curated spaces like that to keep that going.

55:33Beautifully said. And we do have time for one or two questions. This gentleman raised his hand up so fast.

55:45You can, here. Hi, I just want to say, I want, I want to thank you guys for bringing this to the attention because, if you know it or not, all around the United States, a lot of people moved from Chicago, and they was really worried about this, you know. And, um, right now, what you're doing, and this young lady, I know she's younger than me, because I'd like to say, I'm 63, so I know you wasn't there from the root.

56:17And, um, right now, I'm a stepper, and we're going through the same problem. We're worried if we're going to lose that with the young folks. And right now, what you're doing, I'm glad you're doing this, because, uh, this, this is culture. You know, it's culture. And so we're, we're, we're, we are really concerned that we're going to lose this, though. But I am glad that you're doing this. Um, power, power, power plant. Uh, the first time I heard it, it was at D&1 in Old Town.

56:50And I was like, what is this music? It was powerful. And then that's when we started going to the power plant. So, but, um, thanks a lot, though. Thank you for sharing that. Anyone else? Yes, ma'am.

57:07So, thank you for facilitating this wonderful panel. Love all you guys. I appreciate it. I just wanted to, um, do a little commercial in that, Max, your point about preserving this history. It is happening, and we've got to find a way to sort of aggregate all these different, uh, activities. Because people are doing that. I, I work with the Dance Music Archive and Foundation. And we do the Vintage House Show. Every single Wednesday, we've interviewed hundreds of people. Many of whom were there at the warehouse. I was there at the warehouse. Who was there at the warehouse? No, a few.

57:37Hey, now. Come on. Um, and, uh, we have preserved these stories in both radio and video podcasts. So, it's happening, and I think, and we also have a lot of ephemera that we are collecting flyers, trophies, pictures, all of that. It's within the archive. And so, if we can find a way to sort of aggregate many of these efforts that are going on, I think we've got a big running start. That's terrific. Yes. Wonderful. Yes. I think my love of vinyl, from all the fellas carrying the crates of vinyl records to the warehouse or to the various clubs, I love vinyl to this day because of that.

58:18And I was willing to break my mother's house curfew in order to be at the warehouse. So, if we could, I think, spread the word about the love of vinyl and the love of the music to the younger generation, even in the schools, because I know music and some things are cut out, I think that would also add to the younger generations knowing more. Because a lot of them will identify songs currently, but they don't know it was from when we was listening to it. So, I think that would be part of it. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. So, house, like, I was recently introduced to house, like, this year, and just seeing everything take off, like, how it is from the stuff that's happening from the warehouse to the post, even commercially in pop music, it's just, like, a big time for house music.

59:08And I was wondering, like, the preservation aspect of that, not only in, like, things getting lost physically, but, like, lost in translation as things are getting really big in-house and, like, Beyonce, Kei Trinata, and they're all, like, doing house music. And I was just wondering how, like, we can preserve the original house sound and the tradition in that way, not only the physical way.

59:38Oh, but I, yeah, I, it's, it's interesting because I remember when I was, like, describing the feeling and the community that, like, house gives, I would, I was correctly corrected. True house. I think there's a lot of Chicagoans like to say, like, there's house and then there's house. Like, there's true house and you can tell the difference because you won't break my soul.

1:00:09It's not going to give you the same feeling of you in the thick of it, like, in the thick of it, sweaty, getting it all, like, I, I, I love both for different reasons. Obviously, I'm biased towards one because it's, it's a truly transcendent sound that we are able to hone in as a people, but I feel like a way that I have at least been able to integrate that more. So, originally I was always spinning, I guess, like, original or, like, more archival house and then, like, blending that in with, like, new reiterations because they all are reiterations at this point.

1:00:48But, like, just playing with older people, playing with the DJs who are honestly, like, mentors or just, like, I'm trying to think of a good word, but just, like, people that I look up to just, like, for their production and, like, their contribution to house. Like, they are still alive. They are still spinning. And I feel like a lot of, like, I guess, current tastemakers, they don't take the time to just coordinate, like, house music is truly a collaborative effort. Like, for you to have an entire night until whatever a.m. in the morning, you can't hold that all down by yourself.

1:01:22Like, you need to collaborate. You, like, once you, the sets that are before and after you, they all are in a conversation with each other. And I feel like the best sets that I've ever had that have pushed me that I really felt like, oh, that's gonna, yeah, but, like, that I've really felt like dead. Like, I feel like I have been able to hone into this was the ones that I've done with DJs that have spun generations before me who are the direct line of access to that point of music because they're still very much here.

1:01:55Yeah. Amazing. And we are out of time, but I know, right? A whole hour passed. Thank you so much to all of you for showing up. Please give it up to our wonderful panelists.

1:02:16Thanks for listening to the Vintage House Show podcast. Please subscribe and share and check us out live, WNUR 89.3 FM, Wednesdays at 10 o'clock.