What We Get Wrong About People

Welcome to the show

0:00If we could influence the dialogue around leadership and, you know, be a part of the zeitgeist that defines a new leadership paradigm, and we could even just move the needle a tiny percent and make sure that, you know, let's say 5% more good people make it into the running, I think that's progress. People are the most consequential and dangerous forces on Earth. Personality psychology is about the nature of human nature. It's about people, and wouldn't that be useful to know?

0:38Hello, everybody, and welcome back to the Science of Personality podcast. I'm your host, Blake Lepp, and I'm joined again by Jackie Somm to talk about the things we get wrong about people. So today, Jackie's going to be my special co-host slash guest, and many of you might not know this, but Jackie actually started her career at Hogan as an intern while in the IO psychology program at the University of Tulsa. From there, she worked her way up to the consultant role where she spent, you know, a few years working with the who's who of Fortune 500 companies.

1:11And she worked her way up from consultant into the director of global learning position where she oversaw Hogan's certification program, where we actually certify people across the globe. I mean, I think there's 50,000 plus people who are Hogan certified across the globe, and Jackie was a big part of that. And so with that knowledge, she's actually probably one of the most well-versed Hogan people as far as it is, you know, interpreting the scales and delivering feedback. And she's really, I've actually learned a lot of what I know about delivering feedback from Jackie.

1:44She actually certified me as well while she was in that role as the director of global learning. From there, she eventually landed in her current role as Hogan's VP of integrated solutions. And over the course of that journey, you know, Jackie has seen just about every challenge you can face when it comes to people and talent development. So today, I'm going to pick her brain with a wide variety of questions that shines a light on what we get wrong about people. So before we get to our conversation, if you wish to give us any ideas for any upcoming episodes or ask a question, shoot us an email at hello at the science of personality dot com or follow the science of personality on LinkedIn or drop a comment on YouTube.

2:21So with that, let's get to it. Jackie, welcome to the show. How are you doing today? Thank you, Blake. I'm great. It's Friday. How about you? It is Friday. I am, you know, it's this is the the Labor Day week. And of course, it actually never feels like we we get that four days. It feels like a whole five days lumped into into four days because that's just kind of how the working world works these days. But looking forward to another weekend and hopefully everybody enjoys their weekend.

2:54But before we get to that, we got a little episode to record.

Predictably unpredictable human behavior

2:58So, Jackie, this was a topic that I thought would be perfect for you. You know, you you know so much about all of this stuff. And I'm really just curious because I think, you know, we're going to get into this a little bit. But people really have the assumption that we know each other pretty well, but that's not necessarily the case. And so with my first question, you know, an observation I made and I'm sure many others have as well, is that people do seem to be pretty confident in their ability to understand other people, even when they're often wrong.

3:30So do you agree with that? And why might that be the case? Yeah, it's it's a fascinating question. I love this this episode concept you've put together here, Blake, because people are essentially predictably unpredictable. And there are parts of the way the ways in which they evaluate other people and themselves that are incredibly rational and linked to things like survival. Right. So a lot of our why everybody is sort of an armchair psychologist is because it it behooves us.

4:04Right. It serves our survival interests to understand others really well and predict what they're going to do next and try to ascertain their motives. Right. Those those things make parts of human behavior very rational. And then there is a whole host of other things that make human behavior really irrational. But when we are evaluating other people, we tend to make a lot of shortcuts, take a lot of shortcuts in that evaluation.

4:36That unfortunately does not change our confidence level. So we have a situation where confidence and competence are not really aligning in in our judgments of other people. And I think, you know, first of all, people are just more complicated than any of us really realize. But I think the other thing that's at play here is that it's not it's not always that we are wrong in our evaluations of other people or at least our ability to read others, I think, is the way you stated it.

5:06But a lot of times it is we get them we get the motives wrong or we don't recognize when we've got it a little bit off. Right. So we might be a good read on people, but when we're wrong, we tend not to realize that we tend to be really overconfident in those evaluations. And the last thing I'll say before we can dig in here is even people like me who have been studying these, you know, cognitive biases and kind of things that we get wrong. I get it wrong, too. Right. So none of us are immune, I guess, is my point.

5:39And I think that's one of the dangers of people in our profession is that they think because they know all these psychological factors and the things that people get wrong, that they are somehow exempt from these rules. And we're not. So I just want to state that right off the bat that I'm not I'm not standing above this problem. I am right right in there with everybody else. Well, that's also an interesting question. So before we even get into the next one, it kind of, you know, sparked me to thinking, OK, so we talk about personality and how everybody has these individual differences.

6:11And that, you know, we we talk about Hogan's scales and there's what, 72 quadrillion different outcomes that could come from that. I think you taught me that number in certification, actually. It stands out to me. But with that, those varying degrees of individual differences, the different types of personalities, do you think that is the same with how people understand each other? Like people have varying degrees of how well they understand other people. Do you think that's the case? Isn't an emotional intelligence thing? What's going on there? Well, certainly emotional intelligence plays into our ability to see, you know, perceive other signals and try to interpret what's going on there.

6:50But you're right. I mean, the 72 quadrillion number is striking. It's staggering. In fact, when you think about this, this is just, you know, just across the main scales at Hogan. And that's not even considering all the nuance in the subscales. People are just wildly complex. So what you see on the surface of behavior as an observer, we, as I said, we tend to to take a lot of these shortcuts, which means that we do. We like to sort people into these nice, neat categories.

7:21And we often engage in something called splitting, which is we want to identify an actor as all good or all bad. Or we want to identify them as an introvert or an extrovert. And so we sort people into these categories, which then essentially removes all of that amazing nuance in that 72 quadrillion that you mentioned. Because in reality, everyone's personality is almost as unique as a fingerprint. So, yes, we do reduce people down to much too far, too much, much too simple categories.

7:56And I think another component that plays in there is we tend to attribute what we see in other people to internal causes, right? So one of the most pervasive biases in human behavior or human cognition is when we are evaluating someone else, they'll say, you know, you're late to something. I was late to the podcast recording today, trying to get my technology in order.

8:29So let's imagine you were late earlier this morning, Blake, to an appointment and you would say, well, I was late because I, you know, had something come up or there was traffic. I was late because I had a technology glitch right before I came on the scene. But when other people are evaluating someone's lateness, you were evaluating me or I'm evaluating you, Blake, we tend to say, well, that's just because she's disorganized. Or that's just because he doesn't respect my time or whatever. So we tend to make these attributions about others very differently than we make them about ourselves.

9:02So I think there's just there's so many factors at play there in terms of where and how we kind of go astray.

9:10Very cool. OK.

First impressions and personality

9:11All right. So what about first impressions? You know, that is a big part about, you know, how we perceive other people because that's, you know, the first chance we actually get to meet him. So whether it is meeting someone at a bar, meeting a significant other for the first time or a significant other's parents for the first time, maybe even a job interview. How much can we really learn about a person after meeting them for the first time?

9:34Is it OK if I answer your question with a question first, Blake, and then we know we can dig into that? OK.

9:42I think I want you to think back on times that you've met people that made a very strong first impression. And it may be good, it may be bad, but strong, regardless of the directionality. Think about how often have you changed your perception of that person later on? Do you feel like you've had a lot of those examples? Can you think of one or can you think of more examples where, you know, that person kind of left an imprint and what you saw then, kind of what you saw was what you got in the end with that person because they stayed mostly the same?

10:13Yeah, actually, I think I can't think of a specific example, but I can kind of think and tie it back to kind of my Hogan results a little bit. I'm very high on interpersonal sensitivity. So what would that be? Agreeableness, you know, if you're looking at the big five. So because I'm very high there, you know, my first impression might come off with somebody who maybe comes off a little bit rough or direct, something like that. And I just kind of think of this person as maybe kind of a jerk, maybe not the nicest person in the world.

10:48And I think that's because my interpersonal sensitivity is like really humming at that point. I'm like, well, I just really want people to like me because that's kind of what it's all about. And and sometimes that's, you know, maybe not all the time, but a lot of times that can be wrong. This person, that's just how this person interacts. Maybe their communication style is a little bit different. It doesn't necessarily mean that they are this not so nice person. And I think that that has come up a lot because as you get to know someone, you get to know their true intentions, know more about them, their motives.

11:20Or maybe they were just having a bad day, you know, you or maybe they just need a little bit more time to open up. I feel like you can really get you can change your mind about someone from that first impression. But those first impressions do carry a lot of weight. And sometimes it takes a little bit of work for them to get to that place where, you know, you all have that that kind of harmony or that, you know, whatever between you where you can actually get along. So I don't know. What are your thoughts?

11:51Yeah, no, I think I love hearing you kind of talk through your own perspective. Yeah. I mean, what what the research suggests is the old adage is pretty true. You never get a second chance to make a good first impression. And there are there are some exceptions here, but there are it is shockingly quick. It is shockingly easy to get a quick read on someone. And in fact, not just a idiosyncratic one where it's just a sample size of one, right? One person evaluating one other person.

12:22But social consensus around a person's reputation along certain personality factors tends to crop up right away. So in other words, this is actually one of the studies I participated in in one of the behavior labs I volunteered in in college, undergraduate school. In fact, where we had people come into the room and they would interact for a short period of time with a group. And then that person would exit and the group would talk about them basically and say, you know, what did you think about this person? How would you rate them on these various kind of personality anchored descriptors?

12:55And it was striking how quickly people agreed upon things like extroversion and introversion is the classic example. Right away, you know, people who kind of speak up easily, maybe tell a joke or, you know, or show up and make an impression from a social standpoint. They tend to be viewed right away as an extrovert and others tend to agree. And that tends to be correct. When you look at their real personality scores, we're good at getting it right on certain things.

13:29Now, I would argue that sometimes we jump to the wrong conclusions based on that knowledge. So another classic example is when we meet someone we define as an introvert or we sort or characterize as an introvert, we think introvert equals shy, shy equals social anxiety. And we sort of jump to all these conclusions that are often not correct. But in terms of describing the trait, we tend to do pretty well. But other characteristics are a bit more hidden or they're buried deeper beneath the surface.

14:03So a good example of this is neuroticism, although certainly that does show up in time. It tends to just take a little bit longer in terms of interactions with that person to know, are they, you know, neurotic is the big five term there. Neuroticism is the big five term. Do they have more of that, you know, lower adjustment, as Hogan would say, or higher adjustment? That takes time or seeing their dark side, as we know, tends not to show up right away when we're interacting with people.

14:34They're trying to manage the impressions that they're making when they're in a new group. And also values tend to rest a bit deeper beneath the surface. So we start to see signals of those later on. So I would say when we get it right quickly, we tend to do it pretty accurately. And there's that social consensus generated around it, for sure. Very cool. Hey, so I'm curious, whenever you were doing this behavior lab or whatever, you said that was in your undergrad. So you were at University of Florida? I was. Correct. Okay. Go Gators.

15:06Well, I've had to do, you know, all the Hogan bios through the years or worked on those before. So I was like, I think she went to University of Florida. But where were you in your mindset as far as what you, where you wanted to go with your career? Did you kind of know? Was your path already kind of drawn out for you? Had you determined what you wanted to do at this point? Or did this kind of help you get there? Yeah, great question. I didn't know at this stage. I thought I wanted to become a clinician. And at this point where I was doing, I was doing work in a few different labs.

15:38And I was very much in exploration mode. But I always found myself drawn to both the social psychology and the personality psychology side of things. But to be honest, Blake, I didn't even know IO psychology was a thing until later in my undergraduate career. And I discovered that because I worked in one of Tim Judge's labs, who was actually in the business school at the time. And for those listeners who are of the IO persuasion, they will know who Tim Judge is.

16:08And I didn't work. I worked for one of his undergraduate students. He was not really around much at that time. He was doing other, I'm sure, more important things. But I worked within his lab. And that, in part, was how I discovered the whole world of IO psychology and started my love affair with it. You know, that's actually, it's kind of funny because I remember, I think it was after my first semester of college, my parents are kind of, they're asking me, like, what do you want to do? And I don't even remember what it was.

16:39I didn't know what I was, that I was going to do this whole public relations thing. I didn't even know what public relations was at the time. But I remember whatever I, whatever answer I gave them, they both looked at me and said, now, what are you going to do with that degree? And I looked at both of them and I said, I said, mom, you have a library science degree and dad, you have a psychology degree. I mean, you all figured out something. I was like, but what did you think you were going to do with that? And they kind of were stumped. But now I'm looking back, I'm like, oh, my gosh, the psychology degree.

17:10Here I am working with a bunch of psychologists in this very, you know, high stakes, big industry. I should have maybe thought, hey, maybe I should go into psychology. Well, I mean, for whatever it's worth, like my dad later admitted, after I had already graduated with my degree and undergraduate degree in psychology, said later, much later when I was, you know, had a job and had got, you know, gone on to my secondary education. He said, you know, I was pretty worried when you picked psychology because I thought, what the heck are you going to do with that degree?

17:44So I feel like that's a universal parent thing, maybe. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's those protective instincts coming out.

The illusion of self-awareness

17:51Well, OK, so a lot of people think they know themselves pretty well. But how good do you think people actually are at understanding their own their own personalities? Yeah. Unfortunately, the answer is we're pretty bad. We're, in fact, much worse at knowing ourselves than we are at understanding other people. And this is a uncomfortable truth for a lot of people, especially those who are prone to doing things like introspection or maybe they've been to therapy or they're in therapy and they sort of fancy themselves as someone who does a lot of that inward looking.

18:35And I think what is important here is that introspection and self-awareness are actually very, they're not related almost at all. In fact, there's some evidence that too much introspection can reduce your levels of self-awareness because we are just not objective observers of our own behavior or our own cognitions. So, and our own motives, even. So, I think this is unsettling for people.

19:06But the truth is that we walk around this planet and we have very little knowledge of why we do what we do. Research can reveal. Yeah, I know. It's disturbing. Gosh, ask my wife. She's like, what are you doing? Why are you the way you are? But, you know, we like to think we are, we have free will and that we, and we do to a large extent, but we like to think that we're the captain of our own ship and we are in charge of our own destiny.

19:36And it is true that we make our own choices, but we often do so without a lot of understanding of the why behind it. And I think furthermore, even when we are aware, so people in my field, especially those who work at Hogan, I think we are sort of a painfully self-aware people because we talk about our own personality results all the time. And, in fact, as you know, Blake, at Hogan, it's kind of part of the whole culture. So, we can call each other out and say, you know, hey, Blake, you're high colorful showing right now.

20:11Or, you know, hey, Jackie, we can see this standing out. And so, we're very self-aware, yet, even when we know what behaviors we tend to engage in, we tend to have a harder time understanding the impact those behaviors create on the people around us. And a lot of times, that intent, the intent that we have behind the behavior is not the same. Like, intent does not equal impact. A lot of times, we want to come across a certain way or we want to get to a certain outcome, but the way we are getting there may be undermining or getting in the way of us being able to do that.

20:52And in large part, those barriers come with our interpersonal in nature. They come with friction with other people or with other teams. So, you know, sadly, we're not super self-aware people. We're not very great at reading ourselves, so to speak, even if we are comfortable with reflecting internally or doing those introspective activities. How does that sit with you? Do you find that disturbing?

21:24Yeah, a little bit. But, you know, you got me thinking, and this isn't actually about how we understand our own personalities, but there was a time, I remember, whenever I was going through certification again back in 2018, and you were in that director of global learning position. I remember one of the exercises was, we all have our results, and we're, you know, the whole group of people getting certified, it's like, hey, if you're under, I think it was like, if you're below 50 on prudence, step over to this side of the room.

21:54If you're above 50, step over to this side of the room. And you were participating as if you were kind of one of the group, and you were over there in, like, on my side, in the low prudence side, and I was kind of shocked. I was like, no, not you. I was like, you gotta, I assumed you were super high prudence, and you were like, no, it's my diligent. And so, I was making this assumption, just based on, because at that point, I'd probably known you for four years, you know, something like that, and the Jackie I knew, I thought was very high conscientious, high prudence, and you were like, it's not that.

22:35That's not, that's not what's showing up. So, I don't know, would you mind even digging into that? Sorry to put you on the spot with that. No, no, I'm smiling. That's such an interesting thing. It's also the characteristic I was most surprised to learn about myself. Yeah. So, when you, when we give people their feedback on Hogan, you know, there's usually something, at least one thing that people react to in sort of like a bristly way, and they think, oh, that's not me, or that doesn't sound right. And, and in, in my experience, since that time, when I got my own debrief, and I was, I was, you know, almost a kid, I was 22, when I got my first Hogan debrief, I was, you know, in my experience since then, I've noticed that it's the characteristic people sometimes bristle at the most, that is the, it is the most true of them.

23:26And it's maybe the thing they really need to work on. So, sometimes we try to develop these strategies to mask our weaknesses, or, you know, cover, you know, cover them up, or find strategies to manage them. And when we hit a nerve around a particular area, sometimes that's the, the aha coaching moment. So, I, when I got my feedback around low prudence, I was like, no, that's not me. I'm, I'm a straight A student. I, you know, I do all the right things. And the feedback provider at that time was very skilled and well-versed and pointed to this constellation of Hogan traits in my profile that came together, including a value and a dark side characteristic.

24:09So, you mentioned the diligent. So, that's, that's at play there. But also, ambition, I'm super high ambition. And sometimes that masquerades as prudence. It makes it appear as if I'm more prudent than I am. So, I think what's funny is that that is the thing about me that surprises people the most. You're not alone. I've heard that. I actually heard it just this past week. Somebody said, what? You're a little prudence? But it's, it's funny that, that we have that, we had the shared surprised reaction there.

24:39But, well, and that's, you, you mentioned how some people kind of bristle at the things that are the most true. So, whenever, you know, I mean, I, I just really enjoy doing feedbacks, even though I, you know, it's not part of my, my day job, really. I mean, in a way it is for, for the people I work with on the PR front from, from the agency that we work with. But that's the only reason why I keep like the, the certification materials handy nearby. Not for interpretation of scales or things like that.

25:12I've done that plenty of times. It's whenever I do get that kind of pushback on somebody's, like, particularly on the dark side. And they disagree. And I have those sample items to, you know, to kind of reference. And then I'm like, okay, I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to throw this out there. And I just, I list one of the sample items that's tied to that scale. And then I'll do another one. And they're both, it's, it's syncing up. And that's really where I kind of get them to open their eyes. And they're like, okay, maybe this is partially true.

25:43Right. So. Yeah. And I think another, I don't want to get us too far off track here, but another really interesting litmus test on those bristly characteristics is to provide an example of something really low stakes. So sometimes when you read those dark side descriptions in particular, or even, you, even low prudence, I'm not going to say I like the way I'm characterized in the low prudence section of my report. But I admit that it's a hundred percent true. If we re-swizzle the context to something pretty innocent, sometimes people can see themselves a lot more easily in that light.

26:21So I'll never forget when I was in my debrief, the person said, well, let me ask you this, because I was pushing, pushing back on my low prudence. Because when you, let's say you, you get to a four way stop and you're approaching the stop sign and you're driving and you have clear line of sight. There's, you know, no cars coming for miles in either direction. Do you come to a full, complete full stop? And I was like, no, of course not. That's what we call a stop-tional.

26:52And he just cracked up and said, that's it. That's your low prudence. And it really was about, you know, rules and not wanting to be constrained in my particular profile. But anyway, the point being, if we think about things like diligent or prudence, you know, what's the most innocent manifestation of this? You know, do I start compulsively cleaning my junk drawer when I'm stressed? Yes, I do. That's my diligent. Is that the worst way it comes out? No, it's not. It has much more sinister or destructive ways to come out.

27:23And I think that's the, sometimes it's like the gateway to helping people reach more of that inner, that self-awareness, that elusive self-awareness that we're trying to create at Hogan. And sometimes when we're doing these debriefs, it's the first time a person has encountered this kind of information about themselves. And they might be a really, you know, really advanced in their career. They're like a grown-up, a grown-up person. It's the first time someone's ever told them, hey, you know, you can be kind of abrasive when you're stressed.

27:56And they're like, huh? Nobody's ever said that. Or at least they've never heard it. They've never internalized it. And a lot of times, you know, that is a very hard work to chip away at that self-deception. But I guess the point, kind of back to the very first part of your question, we are masters of self-deception. We are masterful. In fact, our brains are designed to help us deceive ourselves. And there are, again, evolutionary explanations for this, as there always are.

28:29We are trying to protect our own egos. But our brain, quite literally, is designed to keep this kind of uncomfortable news out, to keep the truth, you know, removed from our consciousness about ourselves. So, yeah, this is a reason Hogan exists, is to try to help with this question you've asked about, you know, how well do we know ourselves? Oh, very cool. And I do stop, whether there's people coming or not. I come to a full stop. You do. It's not prudence. It's dutiful.

29:00Dutiful. I think it's the dutiful. I stop completely. But call me crazy. But red lights and stuff, you know, where it's like yellow and red. I'm like, oh, it's rello, you know, instead of your stop signal, it's rello.

Behavior versus reputation

29:15But, okay, so my next question is, how different can the person we think we are be from the person other people experience? Yeah. This is a tough one. Because when we get down to the behavior level and we're talking about, okay, here's how your Hogan scores or whatever instrument they might be using, or even a 360 feedback, and you talk about behaviors. Most people can acknowledge, yes, I do this thing.

29:47Where it is much harder is to bridge, jump across the bridge from that to, now here's the reputation you might have because of those behaviors, or here is the impact those behaviors are creating on your team or in your interpersonal circle, in your marriage, in your, you know, relationship with your children. That is where it gets really tough. So I would say it's kind of, it's hard to answer. I think when we sit down with people and take the time to help them absorb what is in their profiles, they tend to say, yeah, you know, this is me.

30:27This is actually scary, accurate about me. It is that, that jumping to the implications where it gets really uncomfortable. And it is uncomfortable to think, oh, I might have a reputation for being, you know, a certain kind of way. And it's this word that I don't like. It's this term that I, I wouldn't, um, want to assign to myself, if that makes sense. Yeah.

Derailment and the dark side

30:53Um, okay, let's transition to the dark side because we, we've, we've started to touch on that a little bit, but let's, let's, let's dive right in. What do we get wrong about bad behavior? So for instance, when someone derails, how much should we think of that as quote, who they are versus something, the situation brought out of them? Oh gosh, this is such a great question. I once sat down with Dr. Hogan and asked like a series of questions, a barrage of questions about. Be careful what you wish for.

31:24Yeah. Oh, it was great. It was so fascinating to pull the thread on these things. This was years ago, but, um, to kind of pull the thread on some things were just kind of bothering me about the dark side and try to understand certain mechanisms about how it worked. And he said it was that the dark side is kind of like, um, an app on your phone that it's always running in the background. It's not something that comes on and off like a light switch, right? So it's always there, but what happens when dark side behaviors come out is, and they tend to come out in areas of either, um, what we call too much arousal or not enough arousal.

32:06So when we're really, really stressed or we're not stressed enough, and that could be when we're bored or complacent, or we just don't think we have to pay attention anymore, which is characteristic of leaders who have kind of ascended to a certain level of power and influence. And suddenly you see this in government officials and, you know, executives caught on kiss cams where they just start to think, oh, the rules don't apply to me anymore. I'm just so powerful. I can do whatever I want so that those kind of low arousal, you know, I'm not stressed enough.

32:39I'm not paying attention enough or those high arousal. I'm so stressed that my resources are completely depleted and I can no longer do this whole self-management thing that typically keeps the lid on my dark side behavior. Um, so I think to answer your question, these are the dark side characteristics are a part of who we are. They really are. And in fact, they are strategies we have often developed very early on in life, even as children.

33:09To cope with things that are stressful, to cope with, um, you know, new situations and they emerge because they are, they are productive in a way. They are adaptive and they persist for the same reasons. Almost no behavior persists, you know, irrationally, right? Because there's, there has to be some sort of reinforcement for it. So these behaviors work for us in large part until they don't. So I hate to say it, for those of you who have kids and you're listening, if you can see colorful behavior in your child or mischievous behavior, I get news for you.

33:46You're, you're seeing glimpses of what their dark side is most likely to be as they grow up. Um, but I think the extent to which we manage and manage the, the, uh, activators of our derailers and also, you know, can we, can we start to sense the, the cues, the behavioral, um, sort of escalation before that derailing behavior gets to the point of no return?

34:16And you've done something catastrophic that you, you know, are going to have a hard time coming back from, from a reputational standpoint.

34:24Yeah, I had plenty of those growing up. Uh, the mischievous really got the best of me, but really got the best of my parents too, because they, they're probably 10 years older than they actually are on paper, um, because of what I put them through. But, well, and, but also you were probably adorable and charming and funny, and you probably got away with a lot as high mischievous kids tend to do.

34:50I, yeah, yeah, I got, I got away with quite a bit. I was, I was pretty good at getting, getting kids, other kids to do what I wanted them to do too. If it was something that I saw as too high risk, I could probably, I still wanted to see what the outcome was of whatever this might be. So I would just convince somebody else to do it. Um, but sometimes I can get you in more trouble than just doing it yourself. Uh, come to find out.

Evaluating leadership potential

35:15Uh, so another thing is potential has been a buzzword within organizations since long before I started at Hogan 12 years ago. So when it comes to potential, what do organizations tend to get wrong about it? What do you, what do you, cause you've worked with so many, um, and, and probably a lot in the high potential areas. So what, what's your observation based on, on the work you've done? Yeah. So back to the, uh, some of the shortcuts we talked about when people are judging others, they tend to use these cognitive models they have of, you know, what is a leader?

35:54And these are shortcuts and they are, shortcuts do what they, what it sounds like, right? They, they get you there quicker, but they're really expedient. So you're missing, a lot of times you're missing the point of what you're really looking for. So the biggest thing we get wrong is we tend to, uh, evaluate as potential, these leader-like behaviors. And I would call these performative leadership qualities in the sense that they could, could literally be performed on a stage, right?

36:24Like being a great public speaker, um, being charming, being seen as persuasive. And these are, they can be features of a great leader, but oftentimes they come with those dark traits we were talking about, those dark side characteristics like, you know, manipulative or, um, self, uh, promoting or, um, attention seeking. So what we get wrong is that we look for these things that look, make the leader stand out and stand out from others, which are often things that actually degrade leadership effectiveness.

37:02So in other words, if you're self-promoting, you may not be out there promoting your team or spending time with your team. If you are, um, you know, really overconfident and, you know, pretty pleased with yourself, which we would call high bold, it may be that you take credit for your team's successes. So those are things that hurt, hurt the team. So we look for these attributes where people, it makes people really stand out when what we should be looking for is what makes a leader show up for their team and for their organization.

37:36And unfortunately, these are behaviors that are harder to see. They can't be performed on a stage. They often happen when nobody, nobody else is looking. They're done behind closed doors in the moments that really matter for the teams and for organizations. And these are the behaviors that produce results and engagement and a sense of, you know, employees having a sense of connectedness to their leader and their team and their work. They feel a sense of purpose. They feel they can trust their leader, but those behaviors are, are invisible to the people who make these high potential designations.

38:13By and large, they are invisible. So I think that's the biggest thing we get wrong. We look for these surface level attributes and we don't really look at substance.

38:25Well, okay. So it's, I mean, in a way this ties to, to politics to me in a little bit or a little bit, it makes you wonder, like, do you ever just think like sometimes democracy needs to be a little bit different? We need to tweak this system a little bit because some of these behaviors that you're talking about that, that cause people to stand out, that may cause these organizations to see them as the ones that have potential because they're showing up, you know, they can see it visibly. It's also kind of the same qualities that get people elected.

38:56And I'm not making this partisan at all because in my lifetime, we've had presidents have been Reagan Republican, H.W. Bush Republican, Bill Clinton Democrat, George W. Bush Republican, then Obama Democrat. Now with Trump, Biden, Trump, all of them, I would say with the exception of maybe George W. Bush had these qualities. And he did to a certain extent. I feel like part of him was pushed there because of his family legacy.

39:28But the rest of them, regardless of what side of the aisle they were on, kind of had those, those behaviors that you talked about. So, you know, are we missing out on some of the good leaders by the system that we have?

Leadership in politics

39:42Oh, 100 percent. Yeah. I forget how you put it, but it's like, do we need to tweak it a little bit? I would say a lot of it if it were up to me. And it's not. But I think you're absolutely right. The people we elect, whether we are designating them as high potentials or we are electing them as officials, they are survivors of a political system that, unfortunately, we have engineered as talent leaders and as people leaders because of these habits we just talked about.

40:14A lot of times we have in our mind what's sometimes called a great man, these great man philosophies of leadership, which mean leaders are kind of larger than life. And you're born a leader, you know, certain people are just born to lead and they have these supernatural kinds of qualities that somehow leadership fairy dust got sprinkled over their heads, I think is how our last guest described this, Dr. Haslam. That's kind of special something, special leadership sauce. And that causes us to look for these larger than life qualities in a leader and call that leadership.

40:51Because what does the word leader-like even mean? No one knows. But it's a box people check when they're describing others in our research, right? We say, would you see Blake as leader-like? That's a meaningless word, but we check it when we see these kinds of qualities, right? So I think sometimes I wonder when you look at candidates for a job role or candidates in a political context, where are all the good people? Where have all the good people gone?

41:23And I think they can't survive. If they're too honest or high integrity, they can't compete in this system that we've unfortunately architected. Well, this is a whole other podcast episode in and of itself. I know that's kind of a dark, dystopian viewpoint. I know. Hey, hey, you know, that's fine. Hey, at least maybe the more we know about it, the more we talk about it, the more we can, you know, eventually move the needle a little bit there.

41:54So nothing wrong with that. To linger there for a moment, that's why I'm here doing what I do, is I do think if we could influence the dialogue, blog around leadership and, you know, be a part of the zeitgeist that defines a new leadership paradigm and we could even just move the needle a tiny percent and make sure that, you know, let's say 5% more good people make it into the running, I think that's progress. So I think moving the needle to any extent could be transformational for the world, not just organizations.

42:29So all that to say, I'm not, I haven't lost hope, but I think it's a tough system. It's a very resilient system that we've built. Yeah, it certainly is resilient.

42:45Okay, one more question before we kind of bring this in for a landing.

Changing views on motives

42:50You know, having spent your entire career studying personality and watching people apply or sometimes misuse that knowledge, what's one belief about human behavior that you've completely changed your mind about? This is the question I was really, I've been waiting, I put this towards the end because I think it's going to be a fun one. Yeah, so as I was prepping for this, Blake, I can think of so many, it's really hard to narrow it down. But I think for me, the most impactful thing that I've completely changed my thinking on is about, really about motives.

43:31So I think the gift that you get as a person who, not even just a psychologist or a personality psychologist, you know, people who are in this sphere for whatever reason. So Blake, you do a lot of debriefs with people. And I think this is a gift that you've probably been given to, I would imagine. So I'll be interested to hear your reaction. But I think when you really start to understand, you know, because we don't know why we do the things that we do,

44:02but as personality psychologists, we start to learn a heck of a lot about why other people do the things that they do and where that comes from. And I think it's really easy to meet somebody or have a colleague that you say, gosh, I'm kind of a jerk and attribute that to, you know, a jerkiness quality that they have. It's just who they are. But when you dig a layer deeper and see, oh, they're low interpersonal sensitivity, and that's not a choice that they make. That is who they are.

44:33And in their frame of mind, they think that honesty is kindness, that being clear and candid is the best way to be a good coworker or a good friend or a good partner. And when you understand and can do that perspective taking, sort of stand in their shoes and imagine what it would be like to be them and what they probably think about and what their motives might be, I think it gives this tolerance for other people.

45:04It has given me this incredible empathy and tolerance for other people in a way that, for me, it changed all of my personal relationships, for sure, in addition to my work relationships, because you no longer see the people in your life as, you know, why is this person doing this or why are they this way? It's like, I know exactly why they're this way. That's who they are. And now it's much easier for me to accept them fully as who they are. Now, that's not to say we have to tolerate all the behavior that comes from a person, regardless of what their personality profile is.

45:39But it means that we just reach this deeper level of understanding. So I think, for me, what I changed my mind the most about in terms of human behavior was that intent versus impact piece. I think we tend to assume, and this is research-based, we tend to assume that others intend to be the way they are. They intend to hurt our feelings or they intend to sabotage our work efforts. And what is more often the case, that can be true, but what is more often the case is they don't realize the impact that their behavior is having is that it's hurting your feelings or that it's sabotaging your work product.

46:21So I think it kind of puts you on this different and elevated plane in working with people and relating to people. So I would say that is the thing that I most changed my mind about. I think for me, it kind of ties back to that interpersonal sensitivity.

46:44It's okay to not be liked by everybody. I think that was what it comes down to me for. Like, I've spent my whole life, and you know what was really crazy is that some of my closest friends growing up, I put them through the assessments, and here I am. I've got this really, really high interpersonal sensitivity, and I've had all these friends who are below 10, like all of them. And I'm like, how did I coexist with this? But I found myself, you know, constantly in this battle of, you know, trying to be liked and really being bothered when I'm not.

47:20And now I've just kind of adapted to be like, this is okay. In fact, sometimes I wish my interpersonal sensitivity was lower because, you know, delivering that critical feedback and things like that, that is difficult for me. But it's something I wish I could bring down a little bit. But, you know, it's just one of those things I have to work on. So, it's funny you say that. Yeah, I treasure low interpersonal sensitivity people. I'm high myself, like you, Blake. And I like high interpersonal sensitivity people, too. They're nice, and they're warm and friendly, and that's lovely.

47:52But I really treasure people who just say it like it is. It's such a refreshing quality. So, I think, yeah, you start to appreciate different things in people, for sure. And it's interesting that looking back, even your childhood friends tended to be more direct. Oh, they were blunt instruments, trust me. Still are. But one of them, you know, lives here in Tulsa now. It's really, I mean, this guy has literally been my friend since I was born.

48:23I mean, he's a little older than me, but his parents and my parents are friends. So, he's literally known me since I was born. And we have coexisted, but some people are like, how do you handle him? He's, you know, obviously, they're not saying he's, this is obviously a low interpersonal sensitivity person. No, they're using other adjectives. And I'm like, you just got to know. You can guess.

48:49Well, I have a theory, Blake, if you want. What's that? If we want to play. Yeah, play it on me. Well, I wonder if with high interpersonal sensitivity people, you have to guess if they like you or not. There's no way to know for sure, because they're going to seem nice no matter what. With low interpersonal sensitivity people, you don't have to guess. You know that they like you because they're still here, and they're still your friend. Yeah, I mean, that's something you also kind of have to treasure, too. I mean, if I can get this person to like me, then that's friendship.

49:24My other theory is they might make you laugh more, because low interpersonal sensitivity people are sometimes just really funny. Fair enough. Fair enough. Hey, and, you know, they drag me down with them, too, though. So, like, you don't even want to hear some of our conversations. It would make people skin crawl to hear the things we call each other.

What we get wrong about people

49:48Okay, so, Jackie, to wrap this up for my final question, let's bring it back to the theme of this episode, but with a twist. If people got one thing right about people, what would you want it to be?

50:04So, I don't know if this is—I hope this isn't a non-answer that I'm wiggling out of the question, but I—what I wish people got right is really more about themselves. I wish that we could recognize what a poor judge of other people we tend to be and take steps and take action to correct for that. We don't need to beat ourselves up for it. It is the most human—shared human quality that we have, right? And there are good reasons why we have evolved to be this way, but it doesn't serve us well in the modern work world.

50:42So, you know, earlier, Blake, you asked about high potentials and, you know, what do we tend to get wrong there? And I said, well, we tend to look for things that stand out versus make for really great leadership. But there's another factor there, too, which is we tend to just look for people who remind us of ourselves. That similar-to-me bias is what that's called. And recognizing that bias, the various cognitive shortcuts that we take, the sorting tendencies we have to just take these expedient routes to classifying or evaluating others and instead creating structures and processes around us that create more objectivity in the process.

51:28And that can include—and that can include is not limited to assessment. Assessment can be a big part of that. But recognizing that we are actually really poor judges of other people. And this is pervasive in our field, Blake, because in the world of recruitment and selection, up until recently, selection really wasn't—I mean, relatively recently, selection wasn't really done. And a lot of recruiters do have this inflated belief, overinflated belief in their ability to see things in others that, you know, they probably really are way too overconfident about.

52:06And so assessment is sometimes seen as a barrier to their judgment or their intuition. But what I wish we would get right is trusting that intuition just to the right amount, but then creating those things around us that really help cover our blind spots or our weak areas when it comes to evaluating other people.

52:31Very cool. I guess for me, I wish we were better at determining another person's motives more easily. Yeah. I think that could get back to the politics thing. Really kind of know what it is that's driving this person to do or to be in this position or, you know, what is it that they're truly wanting to get out of it? I wish we were better at kind of dissecting that more quickly and more accurately. I think if we were able to do that, I think it would change a lot of things.

53:01But before we know it, we're all going to have chips in our brains and we're all going to know exactly what we're thinking. But, you know, that's kind of the direction we're heading. But that would be for me. Oh, that's a really powerful one, Blake. I think that would be super instructive to know, yeah, what's really behind, what's the motive behind the behavior. That would, yeah, that would change everything. Well, Jackie, really appreciate this. This has been a fun conversation, a fun topic.

53:32I'm glad we got to cover it. And I'm sure hopefully our listeners really enjoy this because I think they're going to get a lot out of it. And I think it's a fun episode. So thanks for joining me. You too. Yeah. Thanks for having me, Blake. It was great fun. And that does it for this edition of the Science of Personality podcast. Be sure to join us in two weeks for another fun and informative episode. Cheers, everybody.