How THIS Founder Built a $150M Brand Without Any Funding

0:00Every single supplement that was out at that time was not science-backed. People were taking energy drinks like it was water. People were taking Adderall like it was a miracle drug. All these supplements were to treat a cognitive deficit that already existed. I've also seen my friends abuse it, and it affects their lifestyle. So I began mixing supplements in my own room. And then when Ryan, my co-founder, who used to be an incredible athlete, also runner, got into a snowboarding accident his sophomore year of college, these supplements that I was mixing actually ended up helping him a significant amount. And that was the birth of the idea for NeuroGum, and that was over 10 years ago.

0:30You struggled because you went through a lawsuit, but you called somebody from Shark Tank to help you out. Daniel Lubetzky, he goes to that person and says, you're worth $300 million, well, I'm worth $3 billion. You want to get in a fight with these guys? Know that I am backing them up, so you're not going to win purely based on financial reasons. How many sleepless nights did you go through during that period? Where do you see NeuroGum going? If you had $10,000 to start a brand today, what would you do with it? Um, I'm Louisa Nicola, and this is the Neuro Experience.

1:02When I study entrepreneurs, billionaires, business people, I feel like they all have this one thing in common. And we, you know, we can look across the board, right? And I'm coming from a neuroscience brain perspective. Like, I want to look at your brain and look at the brains of brilliant people and figure out why are you different and what makes you you. So, uh, let's start out with why you think, in your origin story,

1:33why you think that you were able to get to where you are today. And that's building a company that is now generating upwards of $150 million a year in revering you. Yeah. So, you know, there's this great quote. I think Ralph Waldo Emerson said it. It's, when you make a decision, the universe conspires to make that decision come true. And I do think with so many entrepreneurs, there's a level of assertiveness. There is a level of decisiveness that needs to drive whatever it is that they want to come through.

2:06You know, and in that regard, I even see when I interact with my team, right? There needs to be one thing. And it's the same with anyone in life, like setting a goal and driving towards that goal. And that's why they say, like, having that vision and just being the purveyor of that vision, the one that's like repeating it over and over again with those values and everything else. Like, I feel like 99% of the time, those are the things that are going through all the pathways in my brain

2:37and getting passed on to everyone else. And it's a critical trait that I see in almost every successful entrepreneur. What is that? That decisiveness, that assertiveness and sticking with a vision and not swaying from it. How do you feel about urgency? Because when I look at myself as well and all of the greats, and I'm going to be touching on Elon a lot today just because I'm a bit obsessed with not exactly what he does in everyday life, maybe all politically, but obsessed with his brain and the way that he builds businesses.

3:10And he has this maniacal sense of urgency, urgency to get things done. And it doesn't mean that he thinks it's going to survive or he's going to build something huge in the interim. He just wants to get it done, make the mistakes, and then just keep pushing forward. Do you have that sense of urgency? Well, so you know what's funny? I think urgency could go two ways because I do appreciate that. Like, you know, what's characterized as drive for Elon. But then on the flip side, Jeff Bezos, like one of the best things that someone told Jeff Bezos is, hey, stop shouting so many ideas out and making all ideas urgent.

3:45Focus is about saying no as much as it is about saying yes, right? So with someone like Elon, who's almost flooding sometimes, and you see it on x.com, but like beyond that, right? Like almost flooding sometimes this level of urgency across the board with his team, unless it's done right or unless it's attached to a vision again, like going to Mars. Like that's a massive vision, right? And people could get behind that. It becomes almost a distraction to the entire team. So I do think it's still like a balance. And like for me, I take that into consideration whenever I'm, if something's urgent,

4:18like if everything's urgent, nothing's urgent, you know? So how are you pinpointing and choosing that urgency? Well, let's break it down for everybody because you were a martial artist turned entrepreneur. You did murals. You did, you're a runner. Let's break it down from the origin story. Sure. We'll briefly touch on that. And then I want to talk about NeuroGum. So where should I start? My martial arts career, which is when I was five. Well, yeah, no, no. The thing is, I was a triathlete, right? I raced for Australia. And I say to this day, that taught me what I know today when it comes to entrepreneurship.

4:51It taught me discipline. It taught me structure. It taught me competitiveness. It taught me urgency. It brought me confidence. All of these things that you don't realize in the moment that that's going to lead to who you will become. Everyone always asks me, how do you have this sense of directiveness, urgency? Like, how do you know? It's because of my triathlon career. So I always look at, you know, you, martial arts. It's the same thing, right? Absolutely. And a lot of it with martial arts, all those things you just said, right?

5:22And beyond that, it's the only challenger at the end of the day when you become an elite athlete is yourself. So how are you continuing to push yourself to reach the goals that you want to achieve? And my sensei had a great quote, which, you know, he would say over and over, which was, if you cheat on your martial arts, martial arts will cheat on you. But if you don't, then you can take it as far as you can. And I've been hearing that since I was five years old, you know, when I first stepped into the karate studio, eventually going to fight in Thailand when I was in high school, eventually going to fight, you know, and train with Olympic judo team when I was in Japan

5:55and stay at the number one university for judo in Japan. And throughout all those years, it was, you know, when you're younger, and I'm sure we'll get into this, but when you're younger, that physical performance is so deeply ingrained in how you want to, in what, how you can push yourself. Because when you're younger, you have that ability to put yourself physically. And in college, I decided to dive into neuroscience because I realized that cognitive performance, especially doing martial arts, especially becoming a higher and higher level athlete, matched up so clearly with what I needed to do to perform better.

6:28Like there's always going to be a cap with physical performance until you get that mindset right. And until you can understand how you could elevate to the next level. And so you went, you studied neuroscience, okay, at college. And that's where you learned probably the same as me, that the brain comes first. The brain is everything. It is responsible for who you are, how you think, how you move about the world, how you make decisions, every single thing, every, every, your entire being, your entire life right now is a result of how your brain is functioning.

7:02And the sad thing is we don't look at brain performance. Well, I kind of feel like we, we are now we're getting, you know, everyone's getting a bit more in love with the brain, which I love. 10 years ago, no one was talking about the brain. In 2014, I made my first post, Instagram post talking about the brain and people were like, what's she talking about? I get a life. Cause you can't see it. You can't see it. Like you can see muscles, but you can't see the brain. But did you learn in there? You obviously learned about cognitive functions. Absolutely. And my God, like I'm even thinking of studies, right?

7:33Like we could get down to like the most fundamental level. And I'm sure, you know, the study, uh, they did a study with cats and their visual centers when they were young and they showed them horizontal lines and vertical lines. And it was a test to see if their visual centers would be able to adapt. And if it's an innate ability to see certain things and understand pattern recognition, when you put a cat in an environment with no vertical lines, it can't see vertical lines for the rest of its life. And that's at the most fundamental level. Now imagine that applied to everything else in your life. If you can't recognize things and the patterns and approach it in that way, how do you expect

8:05to get better at martial arts? How do you expect to get better at business? You know? So for me, I feel like I've taken that almost as like a mantra, like not just that study, but the study of the brain as a whole to say, how do I become multifaceted in a way? How do I take all these experiences and stress test them enough so I could create an integrated system for who I want to be as a human being, as an entrepreneur, as, as me, Kent Yoshimura? It's funny. You bring up patterns, right? Um, before I studied science and medicine, I was a mathematician.

8:35So everything was, yeah, yes, everything was patterns. Everything was algorithms. Um, and the way I actually got into neurology was literally looking at my thesis, looked at the algorithms behind why a neuron fires the way it does. And that's when I first realized that a neuron either fires or it doesn't. There's an actual mathematical, yeah, there's a mathematical equation behind that. And I see patterns everywhere, especially patterns in my own psychology, but also in business. Is that, is that how you see business now with, are you looking at patterns and looking

9:08at what's working well and what's not? Yeah. And, you know, it's definitely seeing patterns and learning from greats, you know, which is why we always study like the greats always study history, they say. And then from history, the great study, like, uh, other entrepreneurs and other leaders that we respect because they have patterns of behaviors, patterns of thoughts that work, work for them. And you should try to emulate because it will realistically work for you in some way. So, but at the end of the day, it's also picking and choosing and adapting it to, again, another

9:38pattern recognition of how it applies to your environment and your actions. Where was this junk? Because you didn't think to yourself, one day I'm going to build a business like this. You didn't think that, did you? I knew I wanted to do something. Um, you know, I, I went to film school for a little bit and I think I wanted to create something big, you know, and at that time it came from like, can I create a movie? You know, that seems like a big thing, but, um, very, you know, luck is a, a big part of

10:08entrepreneurship and business, obviously in general. And I think I got very lucky being able to bridge the gap between what I loved about the brain and neuroscience and what I loved about physical performance and tying those two things together into a product that I could share with the entire world. Last night, I had one of the best sleeps of my life. And it's not because I just lucked out. It is because I have been training my nervous system to calm down prior to sleep. And I do this in many ways, but one of the newest things that I have been using is the

10:44Pulsetto Vegas nerve stimulation device. I have it right here. And this has been the biggest game changer for me to reduce my stress and enable me to get into deep sleep, not faster, but for longer. And it's quite incredible. So Pulsetto directly stimulates the Vegas nerve, which is the same nerve clinicians use in hospital settings to treat mood disorders. And one of the best things about this device is it actually connects to the app so you can

11:14see your progress in real time. So one of the things that I love about this is that you can turn on any type of modality. So if you want to work on your sleep, if you want to work on your burnout, if you want to work on your stress, you can just click those and then it scans for it looks for the device just like here. So obviously when I have it on and I've primed it and I've read I've put the gel on, it's ready to go. It will connect and it will give me a specific protocol to lower my stress. But the one that I love most is the sleep one.

11:46So all I have to do is click it. It takes less than a minute to connect. And there I go. So guys, this is not a supplement. This is not a meditation app. It's a measurable physiological shift. And if you want to try this and you want Pulsetto to be part of your routine, just like mine and you want to go through and use the app, just go to Pulsetto dot tech slash neuro or you can just go to Pulsetto dot tech and put code neuro so you can get some money off

12:18and become an exclusive member of the Pulsetto team. So let's start with the origin story. So when I was training seriously and you were just hinting at this, no one cared about the So think back in 2007, you know, college, 2007, every single supplement that was out at that time was not science backed. People were taking energy drinks like it was water. People were taking Adderall like it was, you know, like this miracle drug.

12:49And even then, like I have a different perspective on nootropics as a whole now. But like I didn't see anything that I wanted to take that would allow me to perform at the level I wanted to perform both in school and outside of school. So I began taking my clinical trial education and applying it to things I was buying online and started mixing supplements in my own room. You know, I was also like experimenting with like a vasopressin to, you know, for a short term memory boost. So I could perform better at school. I was testing things like modafinil and different racetams.

13:23But at the end of the day, like what I learned was the things that are already tried and true are the ones that are most effective. And, you know, it's like creatine, right? Like you talk about creatine all the time. I take creatine every single day. And then caffeine and L-thin as a combination. People have been taking that for thousands of years in the form of matcha. Like, why can't we ground ourselves in these things that work, but place it into a more accessible format? So that's where I kind of rooted myself. And then when Ryan, my co-founder, who used to be an incredible athlete, also runner,

13:55captain of his cross country and track team, got into a snowboarding accident in his sophomore year of college, broke his back, paralyzed from the waist down. These supplements that I was mixing actually ended up helping him a significant amount because he didn't want to do coffee. It will hurt his stomach and, you know, like he's affected their energy drinks, obviously not. But these supplements that effectively get him to where he needs to be, like, it was amazing. Cognitively. Cognitively. Yeah. And especially with Ryan's injury, the theme of accessibility almost became everything in

14:29our lives whenever we were hanging out together. So, like, how do we create a world where things, not just for him, not physically, but like cognitive performance also can become accessible. And for us, like in, you know, like a naive way, when we were on a scuba diving trip with getting certified by Patty, we were like, okay, well, these pills are great, but it's not accessible. It's not something you want to take in public. So let's create something that is way more accessible. And what's more accessible than this thing that hasn't been innovated on in so many years?

15:01Gum and mints. It's shareable. It's portable. It's buccal absorption. So it works better. And it could be cheaper than anything else that we create, like an energy drink or a supplement or whatever it happens to be. And that was the birth of the idea for NeuroGum. And that was over 10 years ago. What were the very first ingredients that you used? So I was deep into all the rastam. So aniracetam, paracetam, oxiracetam. The load size is just way too much. On all those. And I also, so I'll dive this into this a little bit, but, you know, I do love the world

15:33of nootropics. I still think it's a little nascent. And I still think people look at it as like this limitless magic pill that. Well, of course, but that, that, that movie was actually based on modafinil. Yeah. And it was based on modafinil. Yeah. Which for everybody listening is a drug used to treat narcolepsy. Exactly. A hundred milligrams. And they give it, I think it's, yeah. But it's to treat a cognitive, and you probably know this better than I do, but in all the research and everything that I was doing, all these supplements were to treat a cognitive deficit that already existed.

16:04Well, this is not a supplement. That's a, it's a clinical prescription. Yeah. For narcolepsy. For narcolepsy. Yes. But people were using it for productivity. Oh, and they're still doing that. And they still do. By the way, I don't think that there's many side effects too. It's also called provisional. Yeah. Or provisional. Yeah. Provisional. It's, it doesn't come with that many side effects. So that's the thing. Depending on when you take it. And it's like, but I've also seen my friends abuse it. And it's very easy to abuse. And it's easy to abuse and it affects their lifestyle. And when it affects their lifestyle effects, it's a chain reaction down the line of everything

16:37else in your life. So taking that into consideration, you know, especially like being for us being in the field in nootropics, but in a gum and mint format, we knew that we had to create a brand around the product. We couldn't just be a supplement brand. We had, we had to be comprehensive in a way. We had to be showing ourselves in like a high level of cognitive performance, high level of physical performance to say lifestyle is as important. And we are there to be your best friend. We are there to be in your pocket, always supporting you. And so that's how we decided to approach nootropics.

17:09And I'm glad that, uh, that term is getting more popularized. Yeah. Why don't you actually define the term? Um, it is a supplement that provides cognitive benefit with limited side effects. So. Such like a modafinil. Correct. So when we talk about cognitive benefit, we're talking about increasing focus. Yes. Enhancing mood. Enhancing mood. Yeah. Increasing focus. Um, I would even say like something like a melatonin can effectively be, uh, a nootropic. You know, it's a pretty broad term as you know, but even with, um, people try to call

17:42Adderall, for example, a nootropic, you know, because it's like, so it's meth. It's meth. It's like, so how far are you willing to get cognitive benefits to outweigh the risks? And I feel like, uh, it's gotten pretty, you know, it teeters a lot. Mm. It's interesting. The very first, uh, nootropic that I heard of, and this was predates, uh, what, what year was this that you started? Like 2007. Okay. No, so it doesn't, I was thinking around 2011. Okay. Cause this is where I was actually competing and I was going to world champs and I came

18:15across, uh, was it Bacopinamonori? Oh yeah. Bacopinamon, uh, the flower. Yeah. Bacopinamonori. Yeah. And that's where I got into, I was looking. Yeah. I was looking at all of these different nootropics. I remember back then, 2011, I thought, oh my God, is this drugs? And, um, and so that really excited me that we can actually find a supplement that enhances our focus endurance. So I used to think if I can be on the bike and I think it was around 180 kilometers that we had to ride, if I can be on there and just focused and just paving the pavement for,

18:45you know, hours and just keep that focus. And why wouldn't I take it? Yeah. But you know, it's also funny, um, cause you know, in, in my running journey, I've like looked up a bunch of supplements, obviously. Sodium bicarbonate is one of the most effective things. And that's just baking soda. Now it's used as like a performance enhancing drug by a lot of athletes. What do you mean? So people take baking soda mixed in with water because it reduces their lactic acid threshold. And they're saying that it's like, and there's all these like trials and everything coming out. That's saying that it's more effective. But when you say lactic acid, I hope you're not referring to the burning sensation that

19:19occurs in your legs when you're going at a hard pace. It's that. Because that has been debunked. Has it? Yes. In what way? I'm curious to hear. Well, you know, when you, you're working out and you feel like your legs are burning, you feel like, oh, it's the lactic acid buildup. It's not, it's just, it's, it's just heat. Yeah. It's, it's heat. You have muscle getting into a heating process. It's actually, that's such a myth. So I don't know where this stands with the baking soda. I would have to look at it more and I'll send it to you because it's, it's like a big thing amongst runners now where they take or, and bicyclists too, where they take a little

19:49bit of sodium bicarbonate and it's like basic enough that it helps reduce, um, like fatigue. I'm going to try that out because baking soda is an all round. It can do absolutely everything. So, okay. So let's get back. What was the first ingredients in NeuroGum? Um, so the first ingredients in NeuroGum have always been the same. Natural caffeine, L-thean, natural caffeine from coffee bean extract, because there's cognitive, like there's research for cognitive improvement there. Uh, L-theanine, which is the main amino acid compound found in green tea, but at a high rate, it promotes alpha waves. And then B6 and B12 in the form of, um, uh, paradoxine and then methylcobalamin, the methylated

20:25format of B12. All of which can be tied to dementia. I don't know if you saw the latest, um, study that came out, I would say two, maybe three months ago now that explicitly showed that drinking coffee because of the caffeine content can reduce your risk of getting dementia. Oh yeah. I have seen that. I thought you were saying it causes dementia. I was like, oh no. No, no, no. Reduces your risk of dementia. I was like, I definitely did see that study. No, definitely not. Yes, I have seen that study. Yeah. It's, which is amazing. Yeah.

20:55And so why do we pair caffeine with L-theanine? So L-theanine is, it's not a relaxant, but it basically curbs the side effects of caffeine. And so a lot of people take it to maintain that, the activity of the caffeine and be able to sustain that a lot more effectively without the sharp crash, because it promotes the alpha waves to be able to manage really that just effective boost of the caffeine as a whole. So, and I, you know, the easiest way I've explained it is when you drink coffee, there's

21:25a certain way you feel on a cat from a caffeine perspective. When you take, um, matcha, it is a very different feeling as a whole. And those are those two ingredients working together. Okay. And then you've also got the B6. And the B6 and the B12. Yeah. Yeah. The highest performers I know all solve the same problem early. They remove friction from decisions that don't deserve attention. And food is one of them, because if you're making high stakes decisions all day, you don't want cognitive bandwidth going, what am I eating next?

21:56Trust me, I used to be there. That's where Huel fits into my routine. It's a complete meal, ready to drink. You've got 35 grams of protein, which is extremely important. You've got fiber, something that I very much underestimated and 27 vitamins and minerals, no prep, no variability, no drop off. And what that does more than anything is stabilize energy and focus because most people don't lose performance from one big mistake. They lose it from small inconsistencies, missed meals, poor choices, blood sugar swings.

22:30I'll use Huel when I'm between recordings or on days where I know I don't have time to sit down and properly eat. It just removes the variable. They also have their daily greens drink, which has got 24 nutrients, low calorie, no added sugar, which solves other common gaps, micronutrients. And again, the point isn't perfection, it's consistency. So if you're trying to operate at a high level every day, you need systems that support that, not disrupt it. And you can get 15% off your first order at Huel.com with code NURO.

23:03That is code NURO, minimum $75 purchase. One of the best ways to improve brain energy metabolism is to make sure that you have adequate ketones circulating in your body. This is why I ingest ketone IQ. I'm obsessed with ketones. They're one of the brain's most efficient energy sources, especially as we age and glucose handling changes. I use it for deep work or for long days when I want to focus without caffeine or crashes, but I also use it just in my day to day to make sure that I am neurologically adequately

23:39fueled. If you haven't tried ketones, you must. These ones taste great and you can get 30% off your subscription at ketone.com slash neuro plus get a free gift with your second shipment. So talk to me about like when you first put this out there, where did you start? How did you start? You're in your dorm room, you're mixing up, you've got your own little farmer shop in your dorm room, you start mixing this up and you put it in a gum. How did you actually start to manufacture that? So the idea of the gum, I mean, there were energy gums prior, you know, like military energy

24:13gum is one. Everyone was trying to do the energy drink in a gum format. And for us, we were trying to create something categorically different, something that's actually accessible cognitive performance. And, you know, this back in the day, we didn't have AI or any of these things. We just had Google. So we began researching gum manufacturers around the United States, found out that they're all owned by conglomerates that we did not want to get bogged down with and decided to find and utilize a mom and pop manufacturer in Canada, actually, that didn't have too many clients.

24:50They were just producing their own stuff and they became the best partners we could possibly ask for. And they started producing our product. And now we've expanded, obviously, into manufacturing in California and Denmark. But it's... Is bioavailability a problem? No, because we use actually a patented process that does cold compression on the product. And I think bioavailability, funny enough, is an issue with a lot of other products like gummies. Yeah, like gummies and heating them. Because I think, you know, I get asked often, should I take creatine gummies? And I say, no, like, come on. Do you see that research that came out? Yes, exactly why. It's crazy.

25:21Because the research that went out for everybody listening is they went and studied all of the top performing creatine gummies, okay, on Amazon. And they deep tested them and manufacturing and they found out that they contained zero creatine. It's crazy because it all got broken down. Is that because of the heating process? It's the heating process. It's the heating and cooling process. And we see it the same way in like, you know, everyone has this really bad perception of melatonin, you know. But why? But because everyone overdoses on it and they feel like crap the next day.

25:51You actually only need like 0.6 milligrams or something or 0.3 milligrams of melatonin for it to effectively work because it's a hormone at the end of the day. And so even for us, when we created our sleep and recharge product, it was about, hey, we have a patented process that uses cold compression. It just uses pressure to put the ingredients. So what you see is what you get. So we're not like these other gummy companies where the FDA has this interesting way of approaching supplementation. You could be over by a certain amount, but you can't be under.

26:22So a lot of people do overage of all these supplements knowing that it's going to degrade. But what happens when it doesn't degrade as much as you think? You feel like crap. You're overtaking all this stuff. But FDA supplements aren't FDA approved products. No, they're, well, there's GRAS. So there's generally regarded as safe. Okay. So even within the GRAS guidelines, you know, you're allowed to have overage. So yours have been clinically tested to show that the bioavailability is there because of this cold compression. Cold compression.

26:52So there's the pattern and studies that we do on that front. We also have a study with Harvard Innovation Lab and Dr. Wasifa Jamal from MIT to be able to do like reaction tests, stoop tests, match the board tests. Like we try to put clinical trials behind all of our ingredients and all of our products in a way that we know that it actually works. I love that because data is king. So you did that. You launched on Indiegogo after first posting to Reddit's nootropic section. Yep. That's where you'd already built some real credibility as a contributor.

27:22Oh yeah, I was a contributor there. Yeah, you definitely were. You hit the funding pool goal within the first hour. Yes. And then Time Magazine picked it up. Days later, Dr. Oz's producer called shortly after. Yeah. What the hell? It was crazy. Yeah. It was just a kind of a... You bootstrapped at the start? Bootstrapped for the first five years of the business, actually. Yeah. And it was all about building credibility. And, you know, how do you build credibility for a product when no one knows about your product?

27:54Because there's a lot of people that are just, you know, supplement brands are just putting creatine in a bucket and then selling it to you, you know, and everyone knows what creatine is. But a functional gum or a mint? Like, what the hell is that? Right? The credibility... There's this great book called Crossing the Chasm. The initial group of people that we were able to attract was the biohackers, the nootropics users, and the people that I was already communicating with. And they loved the product. V1 of our product tasted terrible. It tastes... We're on V26.

28:24It tastes amazing now. But V1 of our product tasted terrible. And they were still willing to take it because it was efficacious in nature. And then at the point that we crossed the chasm with, like, Dr. Ross talking about it, going on T-Pain, going on Shark Tank, Joe Rogan talking about it, that's when we realized we need to shift, like, even deeper into the lifestyle component that I was talking about and build a brand that was not only credible and backed by data, you know, the educate component, but engaging in a way that people could trust it from, you know, these very high profile people. Yeah, credibility, I think, is a funny term in 2026, right?

28:58So you're talking about credibility and trust in the product. Yeah. I think about it as credibility and trust in the founder. You know, you just said anyone can put, can slap a label on a bucket, put some creatine in there. Am I going to trust you that you've done the, you've looked at the standards and you've got it NSF certified? And do I trust you as the founder or do I trust you as the manufacturer? Yeah. And it's like, I will always stand behind my product, obviously. You know, like, I'm chewing my product every single day, day in and day out.

29:31And beyond that also, who are these people that are very similar? I want to believe, like, similar to me in terms of, like, trying to elevate their performance. People like you, people like Joe Rogan, you know, people, I saw Katy Perry just posted about this, like, two weeks ago also, just out of the blue. That is wild. Like, and then all of our partners, too. Mitchell Hooper, world's strongest man, Andrew Schultz, Yuki Tsunoda, F1 race car driver, you know, Steve Aoki. Like, these are all people that represent what we want the product to represent.

30:02So from not only a partnership level, we want people that align with our brand values, but also, you know, again, at the end of the day, believing in the product and creating trust in the product is more important than, as important, I guess, as that as well. So you've launched it, you've been through that, and you've got the MVP, everything's good to go. When do you start making money? So we start, I mean, we started making money day one, because we've always been bootstrapped,

30:33but 2020 was really an inflection point. That's when you and I met. And that was when we met. We met at the end of 2019, and then it was COVID, and I remember distinctly which apartment I was in in New York. I always make fun. I've been in probably about eight to 12 different apartments in this city. You and I were talking, and you sent me some gum, and they looked completely different to what they do today, the packaging. But I believe you were telling me we're about to be in Whole Foods. Yes. I think Whole Foods launched 2020.

31:05We were in CVS already, and I have a whole story there. But we were in CVS already, but then Shark Tank aired. Yes. So that was our first big national exposure. And then Joe Rogan talked about our product for the first time. Yeah. And so there's another multiple on that exposure. And then Rogan talked about us again, again, again. And then since then, it's just kind of been increasing our retail footprint, making sure we're accessible to people, and working with influencers that would realistically represent

31:37our product in the best way possible. Yeah, you've definitely made some waves, especially on TikTok. Starting January 1, 2024, you and your head of growth committed to posting every single day on TikTok as a New Year's resolution. Just the two of you learning the platform from the inside out. No agencies, no shortcuts. You just wanted to go in raw and produce every single day. By June, July, you understood how hooks work. Yep. And arguably, TikTok is very different right now in 2026 than what it was in 2024, especially

32:09as a business owner and TikTok shop. Yeah. Right?

32:14But you've done something. What were you named in 2024? Fastest growing brand in 2024, but we're consistently a top three brand on that platform. TikTok is interesting, because yes, there is the hook and conversion mechanism that's in place, and that was something we figured out. But something we've also figured out is, how do we amplify this as much as possible? So starting with a creator community, where some people were already doing the creator community thing, but we systematized it, we created incentives around it, and then we

32:48elevated it into what eventually became something that was distinctly ours that became the playbook for a lot of other people. Which was? Which was creating the right incentivization structure and a creator community that would build its own flywheel on what hooks worked and what hooks didn't. So it could just be me at the end of the day and our VP of growth talking all the time about what, you know, let's test out these hooks. But when you could A-B test and have a community of people that's A-B testing 24-7, 25,000 people A-B testing 24-7, then you're going to get virality over and over and over again.

33:22And that's something we've been able to figure out. And I don't think there's been a day where we haven't gone viral to some degree on TikTok since then. There is something I see over and over again with the women I work with. They're doing everything right, training, eating well, optimizing sleep, and they still feel off. Low energy, brain fog, mood fluctuations. And a lot of the time it comes back to something really simple. They're evidently deficient in key nutrients such as iron, folate, zinc, vitamin D, B vitamins,

33:54especially if they're menstruating. And most supplements just don't account for that. They're built on male default models or they chase symptoms instead of fixing the foundation. That's why I started using Daily Basis. It's a cycle aligned multivitamin powder. Two formulas, one for each phase of your cycle. Replenish in the first half, especially around your period, to restore what you're losing and balance in the second half to support mood, inflammation, and gut health.

34:25It's one stick a day. You mix it with water. That's it. For me, the biggest shift has been consistency in how I feel. More stable energy in the first half of my cycle. And in the second half, better focus, better mood, and I'm sleeping better. It's foundational, not a stack, not a quick fix. Just one thing a day that covers what most people are missing. They're doing a really special offer for the Neuro Experience audience. You can use coding euro for 50% off your first month.

34:57That is coding euro for 50% off. The link is below in the show notes. I, before we do move into a complete TikTok masterclass, I actually want to talk about your first 10 million. Okay. Okay. I don't want to talk about your first million. I want to talk about your first 10 million. And I want to start with this. And it's a quote from Elon. When you want to do something new, you have to apply the physics approach. Physicists discover counterintuitive new things like quantum mechanics. They do that by thinking from the first principles, building their reasoning from the ground up.

35:28I would encourage people to use the mental tools of physics and apply them broadly to life. They are the best tools. How did you apply certain principles in the earliest stages of your business? When you were first thinking, okay, we're onto something. What were the principles that you, that guided you to your first 10 million dollars? Everyone talks about this in marketing. There's the idea of a funnel. What is at the top of the funnel is the awareness is the people, the, you know, it's the engage component of the four years of marketing.

35:59And then from there, how are you educating them a little bit more? So they dive into your product. And then from there, how do you embed it into their lifestyle in a way? So they see someone that's similar to them and realize, you know, they're, they're educated on the product, but they realize that this is something that they could associate themselves with. And then from there, they end up buying. And so I think those principles just in general, like people typically take a few touch points, especially digitally. It takes a few touch points for them to believe that the product is something that they need

36:30in their life. But what are those touch points? You know, are more important. And for us following those principles, TikTok, I mean, we hit 10 million prior to TikTok, but like with someone like a Joe Rogan, let's say, or a Shark Tank, there was an engagement and education that already happened because he's a credible figure talking about our product. And at that time, it was only, you could only buy it online. Online, CVS, Whole Foods, like select retailers. But then when we embed it, embed it into their life in different ways and how you could use the product, other people using the product, maybe it's more accessible because we're sampling

37:02near you. Those, or we serve you an ad on Facebook. Now there's a conversion metric that ties into everything else that you've been seeing that takes them over the finish line. And that psychology, just in general, we've compounded across the board. And, you know, even now, like because TikTok's changed so much, we're still a dominant player there, but we're shifting that mentality into, okay, how do we continue elevating our brand media and our brand? And then drive them into the funnel. And retail is such a big push for us this year because the more one in six people I think

37:34in America know about NeuroGum now. So how do we drive that accessibility to that one in six people to make sure that they convert and NeuroGum becomes a part of their life? Yeah. In fact, you're now a top 50 health and household product on Amazon. Number one in your category, outselling five-hour energy on Amazon without spending on Amazon ads. I mean, we do spend just minimally. Minimally, yeah. You're in CVS, GNC, Vitamin Shop, Casey's, which is around two and a half thousand convenience

38:05stores, and heading towards 35,000 retail touch points by the end of year. Nielsen data shows 13% brand awareness across the US. One in seven Americans now knows NeuroGum, attributed almost entirely to TikTok. Yeah, it's probably, uh, that data needs to be updated. Yeah, okay. A little bit, but you know, like one in six. You're growing really fast. A combination of Joe Rogan, a combination of TikTok, a combination, you know. So Joe sees something because he's such a credible person. And he says, have you, I watched that clip, um, have you guys tasted NeuroGum?

38:40Okay. His entire, you know, his followers see, okay, what's NeuroGum? They go and search for, and then you are using retargeting ads? Combination of retargeting, but a combination of like, when you understand, when you use data to understand who your consumer is. So here's an example, like we're, we're not in Starbucks yet, but we are, uh, about to be. And there's a data source called numerator that shows that 40% of our customers go to Starbucks, like frequently, very frequently.

39:11How do you find that out? Uh, it's a combination of like the Nielsen's data, demographic data. They have their entire, you know, data source that they could pull from. And then they match up our data demographic and 1P data that they could pull from us into their database. So data like that is really compelling all of a sudden, right? To a Starbucks to be like, oh, your audience already like shops here. Now, of course they're going to buy, but that's also very useful for us in the sense where it's like, if you know that Joe Rogan was such a big, uh, top of the funnel push for us

39:43when he mentioned us, like, you know, a lot of people found out about us. Is there a demographic of people that align with him? Like a Tim Dillon, he just did a great podcast to read for us. And, you know, that did really well. Um, do we align there? And then how do we keep building on that consumer base that already recognizes our products? So we can, again, embed it into their lifestyle. And then you get your, I mean, you know, I think about gum, how much can you make on gum? Yeah. You have to sell a lot of gum. Yeah. I mean, of course, like, by the way, I, I, gum and hair bands.

40:15I can buy like packets and packets of, and some, for some reason, I can't find them in my apartment. So you just keep buying more, right? It's probably like that. Yeah. But I mean, the markup of it, like in terms of like profit, like percentage wise, like, is that like a, like, how do you determine that just from gum? You know, like, I mean, we, we operate on like pretty standard gross margin, uh, principles, but, um, you know, our gum is actually not, we need to sell a lot of it at the end of the day, you know, and it is not because we're in an interesting space where we have

40:47to price it similar to gum, but we can't price it like a supplement. And it's crazy to me when you see caffeine and healthy eating pills sold by like, you know, I don't know, some companies like sports research or whatever, like caffeine pills and they're pricing it like a supplement, like a brain performance supplement. I'm like, those ingredients do not cost that much. The gum base is what costs as much as it does. And, you know, our format, but, um, again, it's the consumer perception is so powerful that you have to make sure you align with it.

41:17And, you know, our goal at the end of the day is to sell as much as possible. So we keep our, uh, cogs down, cost of goods down. I think I heard you say that one of the biggest things that you need to focus on is the taste and the flavor. Yeah. Flavor is king. Yeah. What's the number one flavor? Spearman's doing pretty well. I mean, peppermint is our flagship. Fantastic. Um, um, but you know, I think, you know, watermelon's coming out soon. I know. I can't wait for that. And we have sours coming out too. It's going to be cool. Yeah. I'm actually having a, uh, sour watermelon ketone actually.

41:47Yeah. Oh, really? Yeah. I have to give it, I have to give you some, but let's, let's go full into the TikTok creator ecosystem. Sure. Because that's where you really have excelled. You really have. Down to the orientation video that you give every creator to watch. By the way, can you give us a rough estimate of what you're currently doing, uh, TikTok shop wise? I mean. Monthly. It's always hard to say, you know, we, we do like a few million dollars on that platform, but then we look at the attribution across the board because of the awareness that it brings

42:20and what it drives to the rest of the business. So you thought it's, it's going to be in our best interest to get a whole bunch of influencers slash creators to just talk about our product. Yeah. And then they get a percentage of the sale. Yeah, exactly. How much does one thing cost? Um, so our average price is about $20. Like, you know, it ranges from about $20 to $24. So what I'm holding right now, it's a six pack. It's about $24. This is $24. They get a percentage of this. And they get a percentage of that when they sell it.

42:50Exactly. But we also know there's the attribution model. So even if they do, you know, our top sellers, like we pay out like a quarter million dollars a month. Yeah. And dude, these guys are like 20 something year old kids in Florida, you know? And they're probably doing this with five other brands. There are 20 year olds making around a million dollars. I don't know how sustainable it is, you know, for them. Yeah. I mean, like I, by the way, I went to school for 15 years. I know. I wish I was like, we had TikTok shop back in the day. Okay. So what's the, what's the complete playbook for that? So I think we operate like a system and we operate like a business.

43:23Like I was saying earlier, there's a model between a hook and a conversion pipeline that works incredibly well, but hooks can be anything, right? There could be hooks around anxiety. So like, I don't know, you're, I'm not going to talk about NeuroGum right now, but like, let's say you're balding. That's an insecurity that you could probably dive into. And what are the hooks that you could develop through that insecurity? So that's. And a hook is the first three seconds. It's like the first three seconds.

43:54And. Or if you're talking about having someone wait for something, you've seen those clips where there's like a car about to hit a person and they roll and then they start talking about their product. Whatever that engaging introduction is to make sure someone stays until they get to the education phase of your product is the flywheel that we had to develop. So now all of these creators are saying, hey, this hook with this clipping or this hook touching on this insecurity or this hook with talking about like how energy drinks are bad, whatever happens to be, works

44:29incredibly well. They all communicate with each other in our discord channel. Yes. And they say, hey, how many iterations and how many variants of this can we create to see what works and what doesn't? And when they find winning hooks, imagine all those creators now diving through and creating videos based on that hook. How many do you have right now? Creators? About 25,000. 25,000. Yeah. And you said you conduct quarterly Zoom calls. Yeah. Quarterly, you know, make sure that, I mean, it's the same with business.

45:01Make sure that the believer of the brand, myself, you know, is there and make sure that they all feel like they're a part of the team and incentivize as well. We also even do like creator meetups. So we'll like rent a house somewhere and then have all the creators meet so they can hang out with each other. Oh, that's so fun. Can I come to the next one? Yeah, you should go. One of the hooks here, Joe Rogan clip where he's pitching it to Bobby Lee. Yeah. Who's like the male Oprah, apparently. Yeah. And then you've got co-founder Ryan Story as a paraplegic athlete. Yep. So credibility through storytelling.

45:32Credibility through storytelling. Not product specs. Yeah. I mean, product specs is a phase two. The credibility through the storytelling, the emotional tug of a product, right? Like you could buy any shoe, but you buy Nike for a reason because it's built for every athlete and you want to believe that you're an athlete. That emotional pull and that emotional tug is, I think, what allows us to be a brand and not just a product. Because if you're just talking about product specs, anyone could talk about product specs. What's your mission? To create the most accessible cognitive performance product in the market to meet your daily demands of life.

46:06And that could be anything, you know? So we're not going to create a drink because I don't think drinks are fully accessible, right? They have to be cold. They have to be, you know, once you crack it open, you can't share it. Like you're drinking yourself. It goes flat. It goes flat. You know, there's all these variables. I don't think it's a pill because you're not going to be carrying a bottle of pills, you know, around with you in your pocket. But something like a gum or mints, maybe a pouch in the future. Are there a variety of formats that allow us to be as accessible as possible to provide cognitive performance?

46:37So that's a combination of format and innovation. You struggled because you went through a lawsuit. Yeah. What was that? It's funny. So when we got into the lawsuit, we called our investors and we're like, hey, we're in a lawsuit. And all of our investors who have come from experience and building big businesses are like, hey, congratulations, you made it. It's a matter of time, right? Like when you reach a certain stage, like some person sued us because I don't, it was like some excessive. The word neuro. Yeah. So, so for this lawsuit specifically, it was for the word neuro.

47:09Yeah. And it was a trademark lawsuit, but we're not even in the same category. But the legal system in America is pretty, like you could be litigious as you want. And if you have a lot of money, you usually win. And this was a person that had $300 million to her name from a divorce that had a company that had the same name as us. And wanted to get in a war of attrition with us. And as a small company, only doing probably $5 million a year at that point, there's no way you could stand up to it. But you called somebody from Shock Tank to help you out. And what's crazy is Daniel Lubetzky, the founder of Kind Bar, on the show said, hey, if you need help, I love you guys.

47:46You guys are great people. I'm not going to invest in you guys right now, but I'm always here to help you. So Ryan, and this is just such a lesson. And when you ask, Steve Jobs said this to you, you know, when he was 12, he called the founder of Hewlett Packard for something. And the guy picked up for a 12-year-old, right? If you ask for help, most people will help you. Like that's just human nature. And so Ryan DMs Daniel Lubetzky on Instagram. And he replies back and he helps us with the lawsuit. He goes to that person and says, hey, you know, you're worth $300 million.

48:18Well, I'm worth $3 billion. You want to get in a fight with these guys? Know that I am backing them up. So you're not going to win purely based on financial reasons. And she backed away. Dropped the lawsuit. Because she didn't have a merit. She didn't have merit to even sue us in the first place. How many sleepless nights did you go through during that period? I've probably gone through way too many sleepless nights in general in my entire life. But yeah, that was a stressful moment. That was definitely a moment when I thought the business was really going to crumble apart.

48:49But these are the moments that I think as entrepreneurs that really make you. Because you learn things that you've never learned before. It's kind of like, you know, when you're so severely under pressure or like when a, you know, a woman can't lift a car. But if she sees her kid underneath it, she can lift the car. Because in that moment when you become so laser sharp and focused, you find different avenues. You find different ways out. And I guess if you didn't go through that, you probably wouldn't have learned some of the lessons that you learned today.

49:20Because you just didn't struggle. You know, you wouldn't have struggled. Pattern recognition. Pattern recognition. Yes. So, so you make your first 10 million. Are you at this point? Wait, when, when do you start bringing on employees? So we had about six employees at that time. And we have a lot of overseas employees. But we raised a significant amount of capital, about $10 million in 2022. Who led that? Yeah. A fortune 50 company. Yeah. Yeah. Like a pretty big conglomerate.

49:51And that company basically, I mean, it was an inflection point in our business to be like, hey, we are getting this awareness, but we need the capital to build a team. We need to create experts in the company that are able to elevate us. And so with that $10 million, we effectively went to hire a team of people within, you know, the general pillars of a business, which is ops, finance, marketing, sales, right? And, um, with $10 million, you can hire some pretty good ops teams. Absolutely.

50:21And you probably went for the best of the best. And we went for, we went for great people. And it's like absolute killers. Yeah. Like these people are still with our, in our company today. Um, and then as it was crazy, there was a step change in the business and you could tell like with good people and good minds and good culture, like anything can be possible, you know? And, uh, it was just amazing to have a team together that all thought in the same way to drive the business collaboratively. Yeah. Elon said that your product is nothing and your business is nothing.

50:53If your team isn't exceptional, you have to learn how to work with your team. Yeah. Culture eats strategy for breakfast any day. That's another thing they say to you. Yeah. I love that. But in that moment, you obviously had to dilute a lot of your shares, right? Yeah. Is that hard? No. It doesn't matter. I mean, to me personally, like my mission is to create the most accessible cognitive performance product that's available for everyone. Right. It's like, if that is your mission, then your shares should be devoted to that mission. Yeah. And so I think a lot of founders get really caught and it's totally fair.

51:24Investors come in, they get preferential rights and, you know, they start saying things and they become really annoying. For me, if there was a level of control that I could still have with my vision and my business and we could drive it forward, then that is well worth the equity that I will spend to get us there. The product wins at the end of the day, right? Always. Always. There is like, if you've got an amazing marketing process. The people behind it, the product. Yeah. Yeah.