Second Chance Bird Dogs

Introduction to Michael Mapes

0:00Today, we're talking about bird dogs that get a second chance with the man that's making it all possible. Michael Mapes started Second Chance Bird Dogs a few years ago, and while this is not the first time we've had him on this podcast, there's been a lot going on in his life since we've last talked, and he's learned a lot about dogs, their owners, training them, and finding the right fit in the home and in the field. I think this conversation might surprise some of you and might provide hope for anyone that's working with a dog that feels like it's too much for them to handle. This episode, of course, is brought to you by Onyx Hunt, Walton's,

0:33Hoxie Native Seeds, the Minnesota Horse and Hunt Club, HuntFishSD.com, Rufflin Kennels,

Sponsors Introduction

0:39Black Gold Dog Food, and by Game Virtual Shooting Simulators.

0:56Welcome to another episode of The Flush Podcast. I am your host, Travis Frank. Big Al is our producer. He's over behind the camera right now playing with some sound effects. One day, maybe I'll be on camera. We'll have to see. Maybe. Maybe. I know you hide over there so nobody can see you. I don't want to get too famous for my own good, you know what I'm saying? That's probably, yeah, that's fair. I don't want to be like you on TV in a bathtub, you know? The bathtub scene. And I know people outside of Minnesota may have never seen that. I think that commercial airs in Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa, North Dakota, South Dakota.

1:33If you have been in a bar, a restaurant, you have probably seen me in a bathtub with my dog. Let's just say. I'll be watching, we'll be watching a sports game and bam, there's Travis in a bathtub up on TV. It is unbelievable. No matter what I do in life, I will probably be mostly remembered for the Kinetico commercials that we have filmed over the last few years. The current one, if you do not live here in Minnesota or in these five states I just listed, the current one does have me in a bathtub with my dog. Not in your own bathtub.

2:07No, I'm in Ron Shara's bathtub.

Turkey Hunting Stories

2:09Yeah, I was house sitting for him and I did the risky business slide in through the kitchen in a robe. Oh gosh. And the shower cap? Were you wearing your hat when you did the robe? No, the shower cap because I'm bald. It's one of those things that people have fun with. But I have, I've done quite a few different commercials over the years, but the Kinetico spots are the ones that if I go into a restaurant or if I go into the grocery store or anywhere, literally I'm coming off the ice coaching my kid's hockey game last week. I was on the bench

2:43with them and I was walking across and the ref skates by and our team lost. So he skates by, he goes, maybe if it was Kinetico water, they'd have played a little better. I don't even know who this guy is. That's a good, that's a good commercial right there. Oh, I know. Oh my gosh. But no, it's been a lot of fun. That particular spot has been my favorite to produce of all the ones that we've ever done. And it's obviously been an honor to work with that whole team to make that possible. Because now if you go to a bar to watch a game or something with some buddies,

3:15now everybody in the bar has seen you in a bathtub. Yup. Yup. This is true. Anyway, enough about, oh, actually. So if you're listening to this podcast and you want to come to the Aquarius open house event, yeah, I'm going to be there with Daisy on Friday. So this podcast drops to Thursday and Friday is their open house event. It's actually, they have a hog, a roast. It's the food's great. It's a lot of fun there. I'm going to be hanging out. You'll be there one to three. We'll be there. Bill will be there.

3:46Yup. Yup. Ron will be there Sunday, 12 to two. You'll be there Friday, one to three. Laura will be there Saturday, two to four.

Michael Mapes Introduction

3:53Yeah. Michael Mapes is our guest today. Michael, sorry that you had to listen to all of that. I'm literally on YouTube right now. I'm trying to find the commercial. It's got to be there somewhere. Oh, it's, I betcha it's, it lives somewhere. I don't know. We've done a couple of them. Uh, Michael, are you a turkey hunter? No, I am not. No, but you're staring at them out your window. I, I have, I'm looking at about half the flock that was there a few minutes ago and there's one, two, three big Toms. And if I went and bought a turkey license right

4:24now online, DNR.com, if I went and bought them, they would all fly away and they'd be gone. You would never see them again. Nope. Alex, you ever, you ever ran in with a turkey? You know, yesterday, well, first of all, the turkeys like to hang out outside of our office and climb on people's cars, which is a whole nother story, but that just pissed me off. But we were, I love it. I love it. They always jump on Scott. Yeah, Scott's on this brand new truck. S. Franson.

Second Chance Bird Dogs

4:49Yeah, S. Franson. Um, yesterday I was driving back to work from lunch. I live maybe five minutes away. And for the people that live in Minnesota, 394, I'm driving and I see a state trooper and some debris around him on the side of 394. So on the freeway. And I'm like, huh, that's weird. I pass the state trooper because he's on my exit ramp. All of a sudden sitting in front of the state trooper is a turkey in the middle of 394, just minding his own business. He caused a car crash. The turkey did.

5:19Yes. And now he's just standing there next to the cop and all the debris, just like nothing happened. Like he owns the whole freeway. Turkeys this time of year. I mean, they're, they don't care about you. They do. They do not care about your feelings. They don't care about your car. They are. I mean, I've never seen them in the middle of a freeway before. They like take over the city sometimes. Like there's a gang of them and they just, you know, everyone has to stop full strut. They just walk around. When you get videos and you search

5:52online, it's like the, um, the Woodcock in central park that went viral. You know, turkeys go viral all the time. They sit by my apartment too. They just stand there in the middle of the intersection to get to my apartment. They are the stupidest bird you have ever seen until it is time to hunt for them. Yeah. And I have lost a lot of sleep lately. Not because I've been laying there thinking about them at night, but because I've been waking up so early with my boys and other kids and trying to get them turkeys.

6:23I thought maybe you were having turkey nightmares. This season has proven to be the most challenging so far of my kids hunting career. Neither one of my boys have shot one yet and they're never going to want to go again. Yeah. He's no, he wants to go every day. He's like, can I go tomorrow? Which was last

Challenges with Bird Dogs

6:42night? And I'm like, no, I got, I got to get to the office. I can't, I got other things on, I got to do. And a little bit of tear shed right down, but shout out to my boy, uh, just turned 12 and he took his firearm safety training class last night, passed it. He only got three wrong. Three wrong. So I think he, I think he beat you, Al. He, yeah, I think he did too. But he, he's taking the class in my defense. Yep. Yep. Um, all right. Enough about the turkeys. We're going to get them here in the

7:12next couple of days. This is not a turkey show. This is not a turkey show, but when you sit out there in the blind and you watch the sun rise, Alex, and you hear the distance. I should program that and I'm going to clip, I'm clipping this so I can program it to my soundboard. Yeah, do it. That's fine. And then you hear the, that's the pheasant out there. He's working over the area. No, that's. You said that's the pheasant out there. Yep. Yep. Yep. But you, you watch it all. And we had a buck in our spread on Sunday night, two nights

7:47ago, and there was a tom coming. I'm like, Weston, we're just leaning up against this tree. We had deer sneaking down this ridge coming in. And, um, this buck is standing between us and the decoys and he's right there. I mean, we're only 12 yards away anyway. So I mean, he's right there. You can see the nubs coming up off the top of his head. And all of a sudden I look out of the corner of my eye and I'm like, Oh, there's a big tom. And he just swung wide because that buck was in the way, you know, like it's, it's the tiniest

8:22little details that can bring a bird home and keep a bird out there in the field too. And we've been so close. My son had one at, I want to say a 12, 13 yards coming in, ready to just attack the decoy. It was super quiet and he flips the safety off and click the turkey heard it and spun and was out of there. And normally, you know, once you get them to commit, like they do not care. And we've seen all out knockdown brawls from other toms.

8:54Just when you think you're going to get the shot, a hen is staring in the blind, like you could grab her, but you can't move to swing the gun on the tom because she's going to spook, you know, all the things that go, that could go wrong have sort of gone wrong. Right. But that's okay. I actually, I like the challenge and I've mentioned this the last couple of years that I don't want it to be too easy for my kids because, um, they're learning a whole lot out there right now by having to power through my oldest. It makes them want them even more,

9:29which I kind of have the same. Um, I have the same mentality. If I don't get what I'm after out there, I go even harder at it and I want it even more. So it's been fun to see him and turkey hunting. I know this is an upland bird hunting show and most people are pheasants or quail or grouse or chucker or whatever. But, um, turkey hunting, I don't know what that is. Turkey hunting is like the greatest gateway to hunting. If you want to introduce somebody new to it, I mean, you can

10:02bring them out there and they can listen to the world, wake up. They can watch it unfold. You can sit right next to them. You can talk to the bird. You literally have conversations with the bird and you try to convince them why they should come over and pay you a visit and you play this chess game. And when it doesn't work, it makes you think about what you did wrong and you can play it back again. And you get to be there with these little kids that are learning so much about it and watching it all unfold. And it's priceless. I mean, turkey hunting is such a rich experience that I hope if

10:37you're listening right now that you'll grab a child and take them out there. You'll learn something. They'll learn something. It's too bad. This isn't a turkey hunting show. Cause I got a good buddy

Breeders and Dog Placement

10:46there. What were you saying, Michael? I said, he's got me talked into it now. Oh no. I mean, it's, it's just awesome. I love every second of the turkey. And I haven't even bought my own tag yet. I was going to say our good buddy, Tim Brown could talk for a couple hours on turkeys. Oh yeah. And there's a lot of listeners that turkey hunt too. They get it. I mean, you get it when you go. You're giving me such, you're giving me great clips to save for the soundboard. And then they all get fired up in the roost and oh gosh. Yeah. It's, it's awesome.

11:16All right, Michael, enough about me. Let's talk all about you for the rest of this program. Sorry. We like to be selfish sometimes, Michael. Be selfish. It's been, I think a minimum of three years since you've been on the show, maybe more, but you launched second chance bird dogs. When? So 2019 was when we made it online Facebook official. We were doing it 2017. I was, I was taking in dogs.

11:44And you just needed to start this because you had all kinds of free time in your life and you needed to find something to do with it. That sums it up. I was like, I'm bored. I need something to stress me out. I want to meet more people. Yeah. Let's do this. It's like Tinder for dogs. So just for people that maybe didn't listen to that first episode way back when we have a lot more view, uh, viewers and listeners. And by the way, if you want to watch these podcasts now, Alex has been going through so much extra work to produce video podcast, as well as the audio

12:21that we have been doing now for six years, roughly for 313 episodes, 313 episodes. Yep. So if you want to watch us, it's on YouTube. You can go to our social pages and you'll get links to find it on YouTube as well. But, um, Michael second chance bird dogs in a nutshell,

Common Breeds in Second Chance Bird Dogs

12:38when somebody says, what is it, what do you do? What do you tell them? Taking bird dogs, people don't want train them and give them to people that do want them. That's a, that's the long and short of it. Yeah. Yeah. Holy cow. And over the last seven years now, um, how many dogs do you have you think you've brought through your doors? I stopped counting at two 50, 250 dogs. How long ago was that? How long ago? That was, that was, that was probably a year and a half ago, two years ago. It's been about

13:1150 dogs a year. I try to re, I mean, most people see probably three dogs a month. I re home out of those three dogs. You see there's two or three dogs behind the scenes that I'm either playing middleman on. Um, I'll give you an example. So, you know, I'm talking about a month ago, there was a six month old short hair in Texas that needed a new home. He's a puppy. He doesn't know what's going on. Right. I know somebody in Texas that runs another short hair rescue. I've got to meet a lot of these rescues over the years. I hit her up on Facebook, said, Hey,

13:45so-and-so there's a six month old dog. He must be an hour away from you. He doesn't need to come to Michigan. Can you help us out? And I kind of played the middleman there and found him a home from Michigan and he never left Texas. So there's a lot of those that happen in between. I have a big market or a big, uh, network now of people that I work with rescues across the country, um, that trust me and I trust them. And it, it's became a very good thing for a lot of us, us rescues, you know, there's five or six of us that work together. So. So you're not the only one out there

14:17doing this. Well, I'm the only one that trains them to hunt. Um, that is still the thing that's different. So what will happen is I sometimes get gun shy dogs and somebody screwed them up beyond the point that I can fix them. Of course, I always try because it's a challenge, right? I've got to try. Um, I real, I get to a point where I realize this isn't going to happen. I'll contact, um, Ohio short hair rescue. I've done a lot of work with them. I'll contact them and say, Hey, so-and-so I've got this gun shy dog. Do you have somebody looking for a pet? They're like, yeah, sure. Send them our way. So I'll send the dog to them. They'll get them into a home. Um, and vice versa.

14:52I've had Ohio short hair rescue reach out to me and said, Hey, I've got a dog here. We've tried to do just a pet only home and it's not working out. This dog keeps escaping, wants to hunt. Can you take him and train him to hunt? So vice versa, we do it back and forth. 40 years sure is a long time to be in business. And that's exactly how long Waltons has been helping America's butchers, hunters, anglers, and families prepare their meat. That is quite a milestone. And to that, I say, Waltons, congratulations on 40 years in business to

15:24your entire family. I sincerely hope that you know how hard they work to provide all of us with the right tools to process and prepare all of our hard earned meat. Walton's motto is everything but the meat for a reason. They have everything we need to process every cut of meat you can think of. And after a long hunting season, I'm hoping you have a freezer full of it. If you're looking to make sausage, jerky, snack sticks, roast, you name it, Waltons can help you with the tools and the knowledge to do it right the first time. Check them out at waltons.com and congratulations on 40 years in business. You've earned our trust.

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Sponsors Message

17:24travel system before your next flush. Here's a scouting tip that might just help you find a few more wild birds. First, grab your phone and then open up the OnX Hunt app. In the bottom right corner, click on the 2D button and then select 3D. Then place two fingers on the screen of your phone and slide them up together at the same time. After that, zoom into a property that you've hunted before or one that you've never been to and take a look at the terrain in 3D. I bet you'll see a few nooks and crannies that will hold birds out of the elements. I bet you'll see the land in a dimension

17:56that you never thought possible. These are the details that matter when you're putting miles on the truck and on your boots during a hunt. OnX Hunt is the ultimate tool for us bird hunters. It shows our position on planet Earth, land boundaries, land topography, burns, forests that have been logged, weather, and a whole bunch of other features that will make you a better hunter. If you've never tried the OnX Hunt app, then you can download a free 7-day trial to help you understand why hunters like myself simply can't hunt without it. Know where you stand

18:27with OnX Hunt.

Knowledge and Experience with Bird Dogs

18:31That's amazing. The amount of people that you've talked to and the amount of dogs that you've had come through your organization, I just think it's astounding to me. But there's got to be a lot of knowledge that you have built up and things you've learned throughout this time. And that's why I wanted to have you back on the show because there are challenges that every bird dog owner faces, right? Sometimes they can overcome them. Sometimes they can't, right? And that's when

19:05the dog ends up going somewhere else, unfortunately, sadly. So let's kind of pick your brain if you don't mind about things that have happened that you've seen and how they end up getting to the point of being too much for people to handle, right? First, are there specific breeds that you see to be the most common ones that people can't handle? And why is that?

19:35Different breeds for different reasons, but there's two main breeds that I really get in a lot. And that's the German shorthair. And that's mainly because they're hyper. But shorthairs have a good way of connecting with the family and being a family dog. I mean, anybody that wants the first bird dog, that's kind of the breed I always steer people toward. However, if that dog's not started out right, that energy that they would normally put into working and being with a family, they don't know what to do with that energy. So if you're not training them as a puppy, you're not raising them

20:08right. They turn into little T-Rexes. And, you know, by nine months old, these people are hitting me up saying, what am I doing? I'm doing something wrong. He needs to come to you. You know, they get to a year and a half old and the people are tired of it. They say, hey, this dog's constantly running away. He doesn't listen. And you get to that two-year mark. And I get a lot of dogs that don't have a way to expose of that energy. They don't have a job. And we do end up with bite cases and things like that with dogs that are cooped up in a home, cooped up in a cage all day in a kennel. And they

20:44need, they don't have any way to get rid of that energy. So they're going to find a way to. They're just like kids. Same thing as kids. I treat all my dogs like kids. If you don't give them a job, they're going to find one. Well, they're part of a pack by nature. That's, you know, a canine is a pack animal. They need a leader. We've talked about this for years on this show. They need a leader. They need a role. They need to understand where they fit into the pecking order or when they come home to you, where they fit into your family. And without that, they're trying to figure out their

21:17own way to survive. And that's where the anxiety comes into. They use, you know, people talk about dogs that have anxiety or they bark or whatever it might be. They just, they don't know what they're supposed to be doing. And like you said, they maybe get pent up too much. Do you feel like more, most of these dogs are coming out of cities? I would say the majority. Yes. And when you say city, I'm in a pretty rural place and here in Michigan. So city for us is different than city

21:48for most people. But, um, a lot of these dogs are from cities, um, small towns, small fenced in yard. The one thing that's kind of a common occurrence people tell me is I take this dog for a five mile walk every day. Okay. Well now you have a dog that was hyper and being a, a pain in the butt. Now you have a tired pain in the butt. So you, you didn't do anything but take the dog for a walk. The training is where it starts. And I, I, I strongly believe Travis with all my heart, most of these dogs,

22:22I would say nine out of 10 of these dogs, you put them in a crate and that dog goes nuts and has no clue what to do. None of these dogs have been crate trained. And the first thing that I do with my puppy, I just did a seminar two weeks ago with my 10 week old puppy. I had him in a crate for six hours in a room. Nobody knew he was there. I picked up the crate. I put it on the table. I opened the door and half the room went, there's a puppy in there. I went, yeah. And they're like, they're like, do you do crate training? I said, this puppy lived in this crate. The first day he came home, he spent five

Crate Training and Dog Behavior

22:55minutes with my kids. He got to meet everybody in the crate. He went until he was calm. And that teaches that dog so much. That dog is able to sit there, learn how to relax, learn how to deal with his own anxiety, learn how to calm himself down and just be a dog and learn his place in that pack. And most of these dogs I'm getting, there's zero discipline. There's zero crate training. They're just feral dogs. Right. Well, and the crate is such an important part of training.

23:26It just, it is the foundation for so many different trainers I've talked to. It all begins there. And for some reason, this day and age, um, the human brain thinks that a dog going into a kennel is being punished, you know, and outside of the bird dog world, I think people don't grasp that the kennel is like a den in the natural world for the canine. That's a safe place. And without that safe place, that dog is running wild all over the place. You know, if, if that coyote or wolf or whatever

24:02living in the wild didn't have that, he wouldn't survive. He would not make it very long out there. So it's crucial to everything that we need to do with the training process to have that safe place. And it's never a spot that they get sent to after a punishment. It's not something that they associate with bad behavior. It is their home. It is their safe place. And it is where all the training builds off of. Um, Michael, you're not a professional trainer, right? Um, you don't

24:33hold seminars or do you hold seminars now? I, well, since the last time we talked, um, I quit my full-time job and I do this full-time now. So I board and train other people. That's good for you. Yeah. Yeah. So I, well, I'm, I'm booked out right now to September for board and train. Um, I do, I do seminars every month. I lease 200 acres of property that butts right up to my property. And we have training days every weekend here. I'm, I'm working seven days a week with bird dogs now. So. Oh man. Could be a worse, uh, worse occupation. Things could be

25:06worse. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Did you ever see it coming to what it is today then when you first launched this? No, no, I didn't. I, you know, when we first talked, I launched this as a hobby. It was just a fun thing for me to do. I saw a need for it. Um, it got to a point where, and I remember the night it happened, my wife sitting up in bed and looking at me and saying, yeah, I'm working seven days a week with dogs. I work on six days a week at a tool and dye shop. And she said, when do I get to see you next? And I said, what do you mean? She goes, you need to do something.

25:37Something's got to give either. It's either the dogs or it's your family. And I said, well, what if I can do the dogs and the family and not the, not the full-time job? She said, well, then make it happen. I'm waiting. So I made it happen. So we, we quit our job and we run second chance bird dogs full-time. I train other people's dogs from March till September. And then, uh, I do drive school bus still. Um, I, well, I didn't do that last time we talked, but I have a job driving the school bus, which provides health insurance to the family. So I do that part-time for the school,

26:08which is morning from six to eight. I'm not training dogs. And then the afternoon I get a two hour break. And I, when I say kids are just like dogs, I mean what I say, because it's, it's the same job. Just, they can talk back. Right. So do your kids, are they helping now with second chance bird dogs? They're getting older. Aiden's nine or Aiden's 10, Liam's four and Hayes is two. I didn't have Hayes last time we talked and we had two kids. So Hayes is new. So, um, they all love dogs. They all, they all love riding the four wheeler and following the

26:40dogs around and my little ones out there feeding dogs every night with me and they enjoy it. Uh, that's fantastic. So a lot has changed since we've last talked. A ton. Yeah. One thing that hasn't changed is the amount of people that bring a dog home and they don't know what to do with it. They don't, uh, start that training process and they don't follow through with their end of the deal, which is providing leadership to that dog that they bring home. And it ends in ways that are heartbreaking a lot of times. Right. Um, and you see that

27:15you're on the receiving end of it. Uh, you mentioned that the German Shorthair Pointer is the most common breed that you get. What's the next most common? Um, I would say the next most common kind of goes in waves. I mean, there was a time here that I had seven setters out there. There was a time I had five or six pointers, English pointers. Um, but the German wire hair is a pretty common one. Um, I would like, why is that? Well, I would like to think I made a difference in that world. Um, and that might be kind of selfish for me to think that, but I have a video on YouTube that had like 300,000 views

27:49where I had eight German wire hairs on a chain gang. And I went through one by one and talked about how they bit somebody and this and that. And I had a lot of hate from that video, but then I also had a lot of people reach out and say, listen, we were going to get one of those dogs next month from a breeder. And we realized our family's not fit for that. And most of your German wire hairs or your Deutsch Dratars, they are bred different. I mean, they are high drive dogs. And if you don't, again, we talk about having a way for that dog to expel that energy. If you don't have a way for that dog to use that prey drive, you're going to have problems.

28:23And most of the wire hairs I get are from people that don't hunt. They see a big fluffy dog and it's cute. And all the puppies are adorable. Right. And they want to get that puppy. So they get them and they don't hunt. They don't have a way for that dog to, to use that prey drive. And that dog's going to find a way to use it. And they don't train them. And wire hairs are, they are hard headed. And I will, you know, this is a big podcast. So some people might disagree with me on this, but wire hairs are a lot hard, more hard headed than short hairs. There's a lot more prey drive and there's no give up in those dogs.

28:54I love the wire hair. I have three, I have two Dratars and three wire hairs myself because I use them to guide. They do not give up on prey. If there's a bird in the air and you're shooting at it, they're going to bring it back whether you hit it or not. You know? So I, I love that dog, but that dog is not for everybody. So what is the least common dog that you would see, uh, the least common breed in the bird dog world? The one that just must figure it out at every house that you never have anyone turn one

29:25in? The Boykin, the Cocker Spaniel. I've never had a Boykin, never had a Cocker Spaniel. Um, I've never had a Brocco Italiano. I've had just about every other breed you can think of. And here, large months, Leonard, small months, Leonard, I've had them all. Wow. Um, you know, there's a thing that I just shake my head at every single time I hear it. And it's the, the old saying that you can't train an old dog, new tricks. And I just shake my head

29:57and I just say, that's, that's just pure laziness. Am I wrong in saying that or am I right? No, you're right. There, there is a certain level of that. That's correct. And I have a very recent example of that. I got, I got two dogs from somebody, a five-year-old and a four-year-old dog, both short hairs. Um, the five-year-old dog, Cedric is his name, took to it like, like a fat boy with a cupcake, just wanted to hunt prey driven, chasing birds, pointing, shot over him within the

30:30first few birds. I mean, the dog just took to it. Great. Became an amazing hunter. And the other dog in the home, Elwood, I have a video on Facebook and I put him out there. It's like a five minute long video of him on birds. And he just kind of goes up to the bird, sniffs it and looks at me. And I launched the bird and he looks at it. That's cool. And we go to the next bird and he sniffs it. I launch, he looks at it. That's cool. I put a bird on the ground and he literally lays beside it and starts licking it. And, but I tell people, you know, you take a five-year-old dog that

31:01you've suppressed that, that gene, that hunting gene, that prey drive. You've suppressed that for five years. You'd say, don't kill that squirrel. Don't chase that cat. Don't chase that rabbit. Quit chasing those birds. You bring him here. And I tell him, chase that bird, kill that cat, kill that squirrel, get that, you know? And sometimes it doesn't work out. Sometimes it's not, and that's not necessarily training him to sit or stay. That's just prey drive. And if you, some, with some dogs, if you suppress that long enough, it just kind of stays hidden and you can't really do anything with

31:32it. But for the most part, I can, I can make pretty much any dog hunt. But, uh, outside of hunting, you know, whether it's manners or a dog that barks or, you know, like when, when people say that's just the way he is, that's old Brutus. He's been that way since we brought him home. And I'm like, Hey, my dog's name was Brutus. It's a great dog name, but he got given up to us. Cujo is another really good dog name too. I love Cujo. Yeah. But Cujo, he just wouldn't stop barking. And I'm always

32:03like, have you tried anything with old Cujo? I mean, have you maybe told them to knock it off? Try something. He's like, Oh, I can't teach an old dog new tricks. I'm like, Oh my God. I would just like to say my dog that used to be named Brutus, he's got a barking problem, but I think that's because he's senile on 14 and he can't hear me telling him to stop. So he just barks until you get food. There you go, Michael. That's exactly what I'm talking about. Somebody just assuming. I think it's because he's 14. I mean, and he can't hear anymore. And you've dealt with it for 14 years.

32:34No, it actually just started like two years ago when I think, I think he has doggy dementia a little bit, you know, cause he just kind of does his own thing now. He's old. I'm not, he's 14. I've got a, I've got a 14 year old dog that barks until I put a bark collar on and he's not. Well, okay. There you go, Miguel. It's quite simple. I could, I could deal with the 14 year old till he, uh, you know, right. Well, yeah, he is definitely, um, if he was like six, you know, it'd be a different story. Yeah. But so, you know, there's all these things that people, maybe it irks them about their dog

33:09or, and they just say, ah, that's just how he is. And I'm thinking that's a lot of your life that you're putting up with the dog that is not doing what you want it to do. And all you have to do is come up with a plan and stick with it. Yeah. Just stick with it and try it and, and see it through and you'll get there. Every dog is teachable. I would say, right, Michael? I mean, are there dogs that just, you can't ever get through to them? I know that some are harder, some are easier, but at some point you'll break through, won't

33:41you? Yeah. I mean, definitely the more German that's in there, the harder it is to get through, but every dog is trainable. I think the thing where people fall short is, okay, somebody sends me a dog for a month aboard and train, right? I want you to train this dog to do this, this, this, I do it. And they think, oh, it's done. And for the next 14 years, that dog's gonna be perfect. Training is every day. It's every week. It's nonstop for the rest of that dog's life. Yeah. And, and people think it's just one and done and it's not. I mean, you, you, you might have to do less of it, right? You might have to, you

34:16can step it down a little bit and okay. Maybe every other day where we go out and do a leash walk or, or so like that, but it's, it's nonstop training. It's accountability too. And obviously you are working with the dog. You're putting, you're building these parameters, this framework and the dog understands it. But then when it comes home, you then as the owner, the leader of the pack need to also understand what these parameters are and hold that dog accountable to keep them in that same frame of mind and bringing

34:49them back to that. If they, we all slip up sometimes dogs are going to slip up too, but they're quick to remember and get right back in line. As long as they know that you're in charge and they need to respect that and they need to respect you. So a lot of dog trainers will say that the majority of their training is spent on the humans, helping them understand their role as a dog owner. And then the dog itself just kind of falls in line once that relationship is established. Right. I tell everybody I've built a foundation for you. I've built the house. I put the roof on.

35:25I did the porch all fancy. You've still got to do the dishes. You've still got to make the dinner. You still got to vacuum the floors. You still got to wash the windows. Like it's it, you still have to upkeep it. And that's, I send everybody home with very strict rules, whether they follow those rules or not is another thing. But I have a list of things I send home with people. You have to do A, B, C, D. And if you don't do this, don't call me and say, I've got problems. I want you to call me and say, I've done this, this, and this, what you said. I still got this little issue. What do you think I should do?

35:56What is the conversation like when somebody calls you and says, I found you online or on Facebook and I have this dog and we just can't keep it anymore? I mean, what is that conversation like? And what, what do you tell them?

36:16Anymore? I'm so busy. I was checking my email before I got out of here. I have eight new emails this morning. People want to send dogs to me. Come on. Are you serious? Is it every day like this? It's every day. Yeah. Every day it's between two to six emails or messages on Facebook. So I've, I've had to pick and choose now, you know, what dogs I take. So, but I call, I make sure I try to at least reach out to every one of these people. And a lot of these people, I've got resources now where they don't need to get rid of their dog. I mean, I've, I've actually kept more,

36:49I probably kept just as many dogs in their home as I have taken out of their home now. Um, I have a very good trainer, Sandy Masaris, uh, Wendy Ridge farm. She's a animal behaviorist trainer and I have partnered with her. And when I get someone that calls me and I'm very good at reading people on the phone. So I asked them a serious questions and I say, okay, do you want to keep this dog though? And most people half the time will say, yeah, I mean, I wish we could keep them. I'll say, how much are you willing to spend money wise and how much time are you willing to

37:20spend? Cause if you want to keep this dog, you can keep this dog. And they're like, well, how? Well, call this number, talk to her. If you're willing to put the time and money in, you can get training. And that has worked phenomenal for so many homes. Um, I just got a text message update yesterday from a family with a wire hair who is having pack fighting in the home, fighting with the other dogs. They went to this trainer I suggested. They worked with her for four weeks and they sent me a video yesterday of that dog sitting on a place board while the other dogs are running around it. And he's just sitting there chill as a cucumber. And she said, that would

37:53have never happened two months ago. You saved our life. You know, I get those phone calls. I can save those dogs. I can also tell when someone calls me and they're just done. You know, um, you know, a wife calls me. How do you know? How do you, how do you know? Oh, so it's the, it's the wife that calls. Well, if the wife calls me and the husband's working 12 hours a day and she says, you know, he told me that I can, I need to do something with this dog cause he's never home. It's a, it's a phone call like that where I can't change your life situation. There's nothing I can

38:24do in your life to change, to make it better. Okay. Let's, let's get the dog at a different home then. You know, I can, you know, I can read the room. You know that it's, it's, it's the time, right? It's time. It's not money. It's their time. Exactly. Yeah. I've, I've got, there's been a lot of people this year, especially for some reason, um, young couples having babies and they call me and they say, listen, we just had, I had one person that had triplets. So I was like, yeah, bring me the dog. I understand. Right. But I get a lot of young couples that have babies and they're

38:55like, you know, we didn't expect this. This is a whole new life for us. And we have this young dog. It's too much, you know, can you take this dog on and find it a home? Um, I, but, but the conversations, I don't always have a conversation with the owner. Okay. I had a vet call me last week and she's in the lobby of her vet office. And she called me and she said, I have an 11 month old short hair here that the owner wants to euthanize and I don't want to do it. Will you take it? And I said, sure, I'll take it. You know, I didn't know this vet from

39:27anybody else. And I told her, I said, I'm full. You're going to have to find somebody to hold on to him for a week. And she said, well, one of the vet techs here volunteered, she'll take him home. Um, so she take him home and she brought him, dropped him off Friday. And I'm, I've got a video on my Facebook of this dog. It has over 3000 likes. It's got a hundred thousand views because this dog is absolutely gorgeous. I mean, this short hair is built like a tank. Perfect. Looks beautiful. And I, he came with his AKC papers. I looked up his AKC papers. I won't say the names of the breeders, but three of the top breeders in America. I mean, I'm talking in America.

40:02These people have millions of followers on YouTube. It's from their lines. And so I called the breeder and I said, Hey, I've got this dog. And he said, I know who you are. I'm getting my truck. I'm on my way. And I said, hold on a second. I said, I appreciate that. I said, cause I've got 10 dogs here. I wish the breeders would come get right. But I said, I've got, I've also got a line out the door of people waiting for good dogs. So I said, you know, if you allow me to, I would like the chance to train this dog and get this dog into a good home. So I'm working with a breeder to do that. He's allowed me to keep the dog and train him. So, you know,

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43:23is the ultimate South Dakota pheasant hunting lodge. 15,000 square feet with private bedrooms, 6,000 premier acres, full hospitality and bar, and open to the public. Two-night, three-day packages, September through March, are available. Book your next hunt today. Visit HuntOakTree.com. That's HuntOakTree.com. Do you feel like, I mean, I don't know if you feel comfortable answering this, but do you feel like some breeders are knowingly sending dogs into the wrong homes because they can

43:59just, I mean, they can tell this family isn't ready for this, but because they just maybe want the money for the puppy, they just send them off? Or what causes this situation to come up where there's this many calls happening every day that you're getting of people that don't want their dog anymore? Yeah. I think that most people that know me, and this is probably pretty blunt to say, but most people

44:30know me. I don't care what the breeder thinks. So there are a lot of breeders that are very good friends of mine, and they have personally called me and said, listen, if you ever get one of my dogs, I want you to call me. I will be there to get it. But there are breeders that just don't care. I think I've got a couple of dogs here. The breeder is no longer breeding dogs, and he was just unloading dogs at one point. I've heard rumors he had like 18 dogs on the ground, couldn't feed him. Um, but I, I want to, I guess I want to root for the breeder a little bit here too, where I want to

45:04say, doing what I do, I know people can tell you anything and say anything. So someone can come pick up a puppy and say, I'm the greatest hunter in the world. I hunt three months out of the year. And that guy's probably never picked up a shotgun before. How is that breeder supposed to know that? Right. So in a sense, I'm fighting for the breeder, as long as the breeder's on my side. But there are several breeders that, yeah, I, I know who they are. And if someone calls me and says, Hey, I want to get a puppy from this person, do you recommend it? And I'll tell them no. And I'll give them the reasons. Um, I get a lot, I get a lot of phone calls from people that,

45:36you know, have you heard of this breeder? Well, if I haven't heard of them, that's probably a good thing for one. Um, cause I, I know a lot. I've the network of people that I've created over the past few years in the community of dog breeders is huge. I'm actually, I don't, I don't know if I want to say who it is. Um, I am the main rescue organization for two different breed organizations within America. They have called me, they have voted on their board and voted second chance bird dogs as their main Eastern part of the United States rescue where they send me dogs first that need,

46:11you know, someone contacts them and say, Hey, we have a dog that's from your breeding. Um, or it's such and such breed of dog. Um, I need to rest. I need someone to take it. I can't keep any more of this. Their breed warden or their breed club calls me and gets in contact with me and I'm their main person that will reevaluate that dog and tell them what to do with the dogs in there. So there are good breeders out there. Right. Well, I, and I'd say most people mean really well. I mean, I really believe it. And some of this, sometimes this stuff just happens. And if you don't

46:42know, sometimes you don't know until, you know, and it's at that point where life is, is challenging. And I mean, I, I had a dog that was a very challenging, very, very, very challenging. And we did make it through the other side, but I can see how, Oh, you mean the dog that ran to Canada on that?

47:02Watch your own Bob or over there. Uh, no, I, I get it is what I'm saying. I, I totally get it. Um, I guess, how do you pay your bills, Michael? I mean, if you don't mind me asking this, this was a nonprofit when you first

Supporting Second Chance Bird Dogs

47:19began, is it still a nonprofit? And how does, how do you get to do this for a living now? Yeah. So I don't, I, I can't remember if I was a nonprofit the last time we talked, was I, had I officially begun that last time we talked? So I had to be with him. I don't remember for sure. It's been a while. Yeah. I, I, I think about four years ago is when I started the nonprofit status. Um, because at the time I was working tool and dive. So I was, I was funding a lot. I mean,

47:49half the kennels that I built were built from my own blood, sweat and tears and money. Um, so I started the nonprofit cause people wanted to help out. So that was a big help. Um, along with a network of breeders and trainers and people I have, I have a network of people that follow me and support me. Um, not only finance, not only, you know, physically and, and watching and sharing my Facebook posts, but financially, um, we, uh, every dog that goes home, there's re-home fee. Um, that does one of two things that one supports the dog rescue, keeps things rolling, pays for dog

48:21food, vet bills that also keeps people serious about getting the dog. Free dogs don't last. I don't care what you say. Free dogs don't go to good homes. I've tried to prove that wrong three times. And all three times the dog came back to me. Um, I had a set, I had a setter one time that I gave away for free to someone that I didn't feel bad, but I felt like they deserved a dog and they couldn't afford one. So I thought, no, let's, they couldn't afford the upfront cost. And I'm like, no, I said, let's, let's get you a dog. So I gave him the dog. And two months later, I get a call from,

48:52it's called our English setter rescue, um, down South a little ways, South of Michigan. And they said, Hey, we think we have your dog. I said, what are you talking about? And I said, well, we have a setter here that's from second chance bird dogs. Well, that dog was given to that guy in the upper peninsula of Michigan. He went to Wisconsin to a new home. He went to Minnesota and then he ended up down Southern Illinois. And I'm thinking, so I contacted the guy as soon as he got my message, he blocked me on Facebook. So that doesn't give me a good taste of mouth for free dogs. Right. Cause people don't take it serious. So if you're willing

49:25to drive, I don't have any skin in the game. They don't have any skin in the game. They don't have any, yeah, there's, there's no upfront. I want this dog and this is why it's just an impulse thing. It's free. So it's, it's easy to take. Right. And you also don't feel bad about it. If it doesn't work out, I don't have any skin in the game. I don't have any money invested. So I'm just going to let the dog go. Right. So every dog has a rehome fee. Um, and then I take donations. Um, people donate to me. I have some big donors that have bird dogs, um, and they love them. And I, I had one guy last year, he has last year, he came

50:00to get a dog for me. And, uh, you know, I told him the cost and he writes a check and hands me an $8,000 check. And I just kind of looked at it and laughed. I said, no, that's not, no, I just, I told you, he says, yeah, I know that's not what you told me, but I believe in what you do. So here's, here's eight grand. And you know, that, that, that helped remodel half the kennels. So it's, uh, it's, it's, it's a big help in this bird dog world. It's a big world, but it's a small world. And I'm amazed at the amount of people, um, you know, NAVDA, NASTRA, um, HRC, all these organizations have really got around second chance bird dogs

50:38and they might not outright say, you know, Hey, we support second chance bird dogs, but I could call on any of those organizations right now and they would be, they would be here to help me out. And I am extremely thankful. Yeah. I'm not one bit surprised by that. The bird dog community is so great. I mean, it's so, so tight knit, so caring, so supportive. I mean, it really is. I've learned just through all these years of doing this, how much we care about dogs. And at the same time, you know, I'm not surprised by that, but I'm also, but

51:10I am surprised by the amount of phone calls that you get. I mean, that every day your phone is ringing from somebody in America, multiple people that say, I don't want my dog anymore. And if you don't take it, Michael, what happens? If I can't take the dog, I try everything I can to find the dog in new homes. So that's where my network of people comes in. Um, I, I've stopped taking, I have stopped taking super aggressive dogs. Now I have a dog right now that was sitting in a chair. A young girl jumped on the

51:41dog and the dog reached around a bitter. That's kind of a different story. Um, I don't take super aggressive dogs anymore. That's a very hard conversation. I still have that conversation with those people. I will take that phone call. I will talk to them for an hour and I will talk them off the ledge and I will make them feel good about their decision that they have to make. If that's what they want, that's what I'm here for. That's my job. Right. Um, so I'm there for those people. I'm there to, to help them along and let them know that they're making the right decision. Um, but I don't take super aggressive dogs anymore. Puppies, if it's a young, young puppy,

52:13sure. I'd love to take it. But a lot of those dogs that are under a year old, I can find a different place for them. They don't need to come here. Um, my sweet spot is those year and a half to three year old dogs that are past that super young moldable stage and they need something better than that. Um, those are the dogs I take in and, and, and I, that's where I try to make second chance bird dogs live is in that category right there where these dogs are uncontrollable in the situation they're in, but I can take that uncontrollability and make it what I want by teaching it to hunt

52:47and find it at that right home. How can our listeners support you? So we have a website, secondchancebirddogs.com. Um, there's a donut, there's a donate button on there. Um, but honestly, I, I don't want to say hate taking donations. I, I, I, when I need them, I ask for them and you'll know. And I put on Facebook, if I put on Facebook right now, Hey, I need money for vet bills. You would be amazed the amount of money I can raise in 24 hours from the following. I have the people that believe in me. So they know, and they're waiting. I call them my army, my bird dog army.

53:19They're kind of just sitting there waiting and waiting to donate. Um, but you can donate to the website. Um, you know, you can follow us on Facebook, like, and share our posts. Um, we have a banquet coming up May 9th that we are doing a fundraising banquet for. Um, and we've never done one of these four. I usually try to do something every year, like a hunt or something of that nature. And someone brought up a banquet because a lot of people I had, honestly, I had a lot of people that don't have bird dogs that just live in my community and are like, Hey, you should do a banquet where you can come out and have dinner and just like have raffles and stuff like that.

53:53So that's what we're doing. May 9th is the McMaster Memorial Banquet. Um, McMaster's was a family here in Michigan that loved bird dogs. They had passed away and their son is sponsoring the banquet. Um, he fronted a lot of the money for the food and stuff like that. So tickets are available online. You buy your tickets and, uh, you can show up to the banquet. It's right here in Six Lakes, Michigan. There it is. Al just pulled it up. I don't know if people can see that, but I'm sharing my screen. You're sharing it? Yeah. Okay. So yep, there it is. And this is in Six Lakes, Michigan.

54:28Where is that in Michigan? It's, it's a little tiny dot in a map. So I, I live, I live west of there about five miles and it's probably one of the smallest towns in Michigan you can find. But my friend owns an old VFW venue hall there that's big enough for 200 people. So I said, let's have it there. That is so awesome. Very cool. Well, um, let's see. So Al's scrolling through your site right now. And yeah, so he's there right. There's the, we're actually having a fun trial that morning,

55:03which is full. We don't have any more spots for that. Um, the fun trial is another way to raise money. People can sign up with their bird dogs and it's a field trial setting, but we call it a fun trial. Cause it's, it's not, you know, it's just to show up in sports, second chance bird dogs. We're putting chuckers out in the field. Um, your dog's timed on it. He scored on point and retrieve and things like that. Um, but that filled up fairly quickly. So. Is there anything on here you want me to click on? Um, yeah, I just kind of, I'm just watching you scroll through it, which I think

55:35it's a beautiful site. Obviously, um, it's got a lot of information on there, but, uh, you know, just thinking about other people that have, I just think we have really smart listeners and I know there's, there are all different walks of life and the confidence in training and knowledge with a bird dog varies greatly and you don't get, you don't get confidence without experience. Right. And so we have some first timers listening to the show. We have some that maybe have 10

56:07dogs over their life and they know a lot. Um, I, I think the value of the information that you've learned, Michael, and the value of the information that a lot of our listeners have, when these conversations come up that you're having every single day, there are other people, there are listeners right now that know somebody probably that's having a hard time with a dog. I mean, let's be honest. If you're getting that many calls a day, there's people listening that knows somebody

56:39that's having a hard time. So what can they do? What can we do as dog owners that invest heavily? If you're listening to this podcast at this point, you cared a lot about your dog and you care about other people's dogs, right? You're into this world, you know, a lot. So what can we do to help so that Michael Mapes doesn't get six to eight phone calls every single day from somebody who doesn't think they can handle their own dog?

57:09I, I, I refer to children a lot, right? Um, and when I talk about dogs, I refer to children a lot because dogs are just like kids. And every one of these people I talk to, if your friend's having trouble with a dog, coworker, somebody like that, I, I would first ask the person, what kind of connection do they have with that dog? I want to know when you come home, is that dog just there? And you say, go sit down and you go sit in the couch and watch TV, or do you actually have a connection with that dog? Cause that dog is looking for an alpha. That dog's looking for a

57:41pack leader. That dog wants you to tell him to do something. We talked earlier on the podcast about, you know, people feeling bad because their dog's in a crate. That dog wants you to tell him to go to the crate. That dog wants you to put him on a leash. He wants to go for a walk with you. If you're not doing them things, that dog is sitting there and he's starving for that attention. And it's not the attention, like a kid, like sit down, put my arm around my son and talk to him. That dog wants you to put him on a leash and take him for a walk in the yard. You know, he wants to train. He wants to learn things. And I tell people all the time,

58:14go out with your dog, put your hands in your pockets and just watch your dog. Just have fun with them. Teach him, put them on a leash, put them on a check cord, go for a short walk, do some drills, do some retrieving, do things like that. A lot of these dogs that I get are just existing, literally existing in a home with no job whatsoever. And they're getting into trouble because that's their daily life is just to exist. And they're begging for something to do. And these people aren't giving them anything to do. So what are you doing with that dog on a day

58:47to day basis? How can you stop the dogs from coming to me? You've got to train them right from day one. But if you've already passed that, you've got a lot of work to make up, but it's doable. You can do it. There's tools to use. I've got a lot of YouTube videos on leash walking, tools that I use, things that you can do to kind of speed up the process if you've lost that time. But a lot of it is just training and spending time with your dog, getting to know your dog.

59:17Gotcha. Well, I think there's a lot of valuable information here. I believe in your mission and I'm, I'm really glad that you're doing what you're doing. I don't know what all these talks would be, what would be happening with them without you. So I'm glad that you have an army that supports you as well to keep this going. I mean, it's just a testament to the work that you're doing, the mission that you're on right now. And I hope that your fundraiser goes well.

59:47Again, it's second chance bird dogs for anybody that wants to check it out. If they just need advice, if they need an ear, um, Michael, you're there. Call me if you want. Don't call Al. I wouldn't be very good at, uh, at helping you out. Now you are up to this conversation. Come on. My specialty is an ultra hyper, uh, boxers that like to be inside of your skin all the time. Not bird dog. Yeah. Oh gosh. Michael, uh, think the next conversation we have, we got to get in depth

1:00:22into training dogs that have not been trained. I know we're already at an hour right now, so we'll wrap this up, but if you've got time, I know you've obviously you've got a lot going on here and maybe after your banquet wraps up, but training dogs that had no foundation, I think that would be something worth all of our time because whether it's your dog or somebody, you know, you know, our listeners, you know, somebody that's going through a hard time with their dog right now.

1:00:52And you could be a difference maker just based on some simple instructions and knowledge and confidence. And I believe Michael has earned it. And I believe you probably could share quite a bit with us. So if you're good with it, we'll have you back on the show soon. I would love that. Wonderful. Big Al, good work today. As always, big thanks to our sponsors for making this show possible. We certainly appreciate you and we appreciate everything that Michael is doing at Second Chance Bird Dogs. We will be back next week. We're talking dogs again on the Flush podcast.

1:01:27Yeah. We'll be back then. See you then.