Episode 377- "An artist walks into a bar…" Guy Richards Smit on his New Yorker cartoons, his paintings, and humor in art

Introduction to The Conversation

0:00This is The Conversation. It's a podcast that goes behind the scenes and between the lines of the contemporary art world. It also attempts to reconcile art with the art world. Take your pick. It's an art podcast. This is The Conversation. I'm Michael Shaw. Welcome to the show. This is episode 377 with Guy Richard Smith, a return guest from eight years ago who has, since we last spoke

0:36eight years ago, has risen into the hallowed halls of New Yorker cartoonists. More on that in a second.

Guy Richard Smith's Background

0:44The website for this show is theconversationpod.com where I couldn't resist packing the gallery with images because we talked about or at least partially discussed several of Guy's cartoons, which also, many of which were turned into paintings. And it was in fact his show slash installation at Independent, an art fair in New York City, with the gallery A Hug from the Art World

1:16that made me want to have Guy back on the show. So you will see an installation shot of those paintings. You will also see where you will not be able to see anywhere else. The first cartoon guy made that the New Yorker told him was almost in the magazine and then the first one that they bought. Those are both on the episode page along with the cartoon that he did about ice that went viral

1:48and several others that we talk about in various capacities. And, you know, I asked him at the

Current State of the World

1:57beginning, as you will hear shortly, what his view of the shit show of the world is from Brooklyn and things have only gotten worse since I asked him that. His ice cartoon was so prescient. I think he must have done it, put it out before things really took off in LA, here in LA, where ice agents, as you probably are aware, unless you've been hiding under a rock, are kidnapping people, you know, by racial,

2:31racist identification in Home Depots, among other locations, car washes, vendors, etc., and just hauling them off. It's insane. And I'm sure you've caught some of this on social media or the news or the web or just from word of mouth, if, you know, if not one of those sources. And meanwhile, as I talk to you now, I guess we're in the 11th hour of trying to kill the terrible bill that will shift all of the

3:06federal money, all of the money, essentially, that is distributable to the richest people, the absolute richest people, and will, meanwhile, take it away from people who have Medicaid and other government services that are depended upon by many, including myself. So I didn't mention this last time. It may very well be too late by the time you hear this. But if you happen to live in a state or jurisdiction,

3:37part of the state, that is represented by a Republican who voted yes, either in the Senate and or the House, I hope that least you are doing is calling their office and saying, vote fucking no. Better yet, you're going to their office if you happen to be in the same town, city, where they're, out of D.C. offices, and carrying your pitchforks to the door. Because we need no less than that.

Guy's Career and New Yorker Cartoons

4:08I know this is not a political show. You did not come here for politics. But this is a fucking desperate moment that we are going through right now. And I cannot avoid bringing it up, at least in passing. Meanwhile, we've got a lot of comedy coming up. So stay tuned. Yeah, I mean, in fact, tied in with at least a couple of guys' cartoons, one of which I believe became a painting, the other did not, is a lot of this. And one that he talks about, actually, you will hear in the first

4:41half that was sort of the turning point in his life as a child for being fascinated by gag cartoons, as he calls them. All of these are connected to deeply politicized topics, ultimately. There's room for humor as well. But in any case, I am rambling, and you need to hear this episode. Let me tell you that in the first half, you'll hear a little bit more in the first half in this public feed. You will

5:11hear about that inspiring cartoon that Guy saw in a New Yorker book at his grandparents, as well as the cartoon that he did in the morning, submitted, and by noon or early afternoon, it was going viral around the internet and social media and led to a Turkish cartoonist doing his own version of it, which won an award. You'll hear all about that and more. To hear about one of his cartoons that references a particular artist, I thought it was one artist. That artist himself thought it was

5:46them, but it turns out it was referencing another artist that you could interpret in it. So take that test on the web page and see if you can figure it out. We get more into that in the second half, as well as how Guy was out without a gallery for 15 years and how he stitched together an income from Instagram and portrait painting, among other things. And we talk about the gallery that he did hook up with, a hug from the art world, and the show at Independent Art Fair just this past spring, and more. You will

6:23get to hear, though, before we sign off this public episode, I got some pretty encouraging emails about my art that I think you guys will be interested in, because it may happen to you at some point as well. So I will share those with you before we break for this episode after the end of the first half of the conversation, a little bit more than the first half. All right, I hope you're well. Of course, you can follow the show at Artist Podcast on Instagram, and you can leave a review on Apple Podcasts or

6:57Spotify. Definitely easier to leave reviews on and probably slightly more influential, if not a lot more influential on Apple Podcasts. So if you like the show and you want to support it and you can't support it financially, you can go to Apple Podcasts, the conversation page, which is linked on our website, and leave a nice review. If you would like to support the show and get the full hour and eight-minute conversation, you can do so by going to patreon.com slash

7:28theconversationpod. It's also linked on the website. All right, so let's jump into it. Thank you very much for being here. I hope you enjoy this conversation. And I hope despite the world, the country, the government falling apart, that you are doing okay. Definitely always interested in hearing about how you're doing. So feel free to reach out, theconversationartpodcast at gmail.com at artistpodcast on IG. And yeah, or mail. You want my mailing address? Reach out and I will give

8:02it to you and you can write me a handwritten letter. All right. Thank you very much for being here. Let's get to that conversation. Guy, it's been how long do you think? Did I say before? Was it

Influence of Gag Cartoons

8:18like eight years ago? I think it was eight years ago. I remember the conversation happened in a studio I no longer have. Okay. Got it. Got it. And just out of curiosity to sort of start to briefly sort of cover this, what does the apocalypse, dystopia, nightmare, whatever word you would prefer to use look like from Brooklyn right now? That's a very good question. It's different from the last time

8:49around. Yeah. It's day to day. Some days I'm very hopeful and some days I'm not. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Well, I think that's better than many, including myself probably, because I don't know how much many hopeful days I can say I'm having, but you, you said the last time around, and I just want to point out, I imagine you remember this as well, that on November 9th or whatever day it was in 2016,

9:25the day after the election, you did an outdoor standup comedy set. Do you remember that? Yes. That's a tough, that's a tough room to, right? Right. Yeah. Are you still doing standup at all? I'm not. Okay. Uh-huh. I miss performance and I've done a little bit of performance, kind of more like MC off the cuff stuff. Right. Right. But, but I haven't done any kind of, you know, hey, everybody look at me for the next 10 minutes.

9:58Yeah. Okay. Well, that actually is a perfect segue to one of your recent pieces, which I feel like we should, uh, we should definitely deconstruct or, or just, you know, uh, joke about or whatever you want to call it, but it is, so you've been doing New Yorker cartoons. We'll talk about that in a second, but I just, to your most recent description of doing a standup set, you know, everybody looking at me, one of your paintings slash, uh, cartoons has a guy at the bar talking to the bartender and,

10:33and I get, you know, his, his woman companion. Yes. He's saying to the bartender, sure. My opening was a huge success, but what about tomorrow? Will everything still be about me tomorrow? Yes. Right. So do you have like a fascination with, uh, with ego and self-absorption and things like that? Absolutely. Yeah. Talk about that. Well, I, uh, have, and always have had an incredible sense of, um, self-regard. Really? Wow. Okay. Yeah. Um, and, but I've also at the same time

11:16been, uh, also self-aware. Yeah. Yeah. That's a pretty rare combination, I think. Yeah. Yeah. And I've seen when it's there, that you don't have that combination. Yeah. And, um, it's not most comedians, most comedians, most artists, most, um, I mean, I've been on panels with people who, who never even, who wouldn't shut up and were boring. And, uh, I just, I couldn't understand, you know, what is going on with you that you can't read, um, the people in front of you and

11:51what they're, and, and sometimes I'm, I'm envious of that because I'm so aware. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, yeah. But it's also makes them tedious and I don't want to be around them. Right. And, um, and I, I think I was also, I have enough of a sense of, um, you know, how life works, uh, that I've seen, you know, and I grew up in New York city and I grew up around a lot of very self-involved people who would end up, you know, just kind of, uh, alone. And I don't mean

12:27like actually alone, like, you know, they may be married or something, but very fundamentally alone. Mm-hmm. And I knew that's not what I wanted. Right. So, uh, I have all the feelings, but I also catch all the feelings, but yeah, as many as I can. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That, that type of person that you're talking about, the one who, and it, it, it, let's face it, it does tend to be a

12:58male. Correct. Correct. If I'm wrong. Not necessarily. Okay. Yeah. I mean, there's definitely, there's different, different ways of doing it. Um, right. There's different ways of being boring. There's different ways of, uh, and you know, I, I love trashing dudes cause they're, they're so trashable. Right. Right. But I have been, um, uh, also subjected to, uh, uh, I've been on panels with women artists as well, who, who I'm just astounded at their,

13:33uh, inability to, uh, see, you know, what people are asking for, what, what is keeping the audience engaged. Yeah. Right. I think there's this type of artist or, you know, person for that matter. I mean, it doesn't, it's obviously not limited to any kind of art, you know, can be in, you know, it's like the, um, the office, you know, uh, character, you know, for example, that's, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's all over the place, but in

14:05any case, since we're an art podcast, we can kind of look at it from that perspective. I'd say when, from my, from my perspective, from my experience, when you're younger, you'll meet these artists, right. And you'll, you, whether in person or on a phone, on a phone call, you'll, you, they'll just talk your ear off forever. And you're kind of soaking it in because it's like, Oh yeah, this is kind of interesting and kind of captivating. Right. So you just stay with it, but then cut to, you know, you mature, you, you, you become more of a mature adult and more worldly and, or, or, or just, you know, kind of experienced

14:38and you're like, what a blowhard. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And so you kind of keep your distance. Yes. Yeah. For someone who, you know, I saw, I was in bands in the eighties and, and, uh, in the, in the music scene, you, you dealt with a lot of people like that. Yeah. And so you, if you were, you know, uh, a smart way to deal with it or the way I dealt with it was by, um, keeping the bed arm's length. Yeah. Uh, and you know,

15:12knowing that they're, they're, they're there and, and often being entertained by them, but keeping them emotionally at arm's length and, uh, um, yeah. So it's, it's, it, you know, and also as, as an observer, as an artist who gets a lot out of observation, they can be, they can be great for a half an hour. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But then it's like, you are, you are sort of, it's hard to, harder, the more time you stick around,

15:45the harder it is to escape. Isn't it? Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. So the big change since we last spoke other than, you know, just eight years and, you know, uh, a different kind of shit show is that you got to be a New Yorker cartoonist. Yeah. Right. So that's a, that's a pretty amazing crossover. Can you talk about, uh, when you first started doing cartoons and submitting

Submitting Cartoons to The New Yorker

16:13them and what that whole evolution was like? Sure. Um, so I've always had a fascination with gag cartoons. Um, and it started at a very young age. Um, uh, when my grandparents had, I would, I would, I would spend time at their house and they had, you know, a classically depressing grandparents kind of house, but they had this compendium of, of New Yorker cartoons

16:45from 1925 to 1950. And, um, as, as an eight year old, I remember going through this book. I still have this, their copy. Um, and there is a full page cartoon in it that is so dark and absurd and, um, scary and not funny, but also funny. Um, and so beautifully drawn, just stunningly drawn that I was just both traumatized and fascinated and engaged by it. And, um, um, uh, and I only found

17:26out many years later, uh, first of all, uh, I'm not going to describe the cartoon, but it's, it's, it's, it's the basic premise of it is that it's a, it's a, it's a lynching cartoon. Oh, wow. Okay. Uh-huh. Yeah. And, um, and it's, it turns out, I found out years later that it is by, um, Reginald Marsh, who was a great, uh, uh, one of the early cartoonists, but also a fantastic, uh, artist and, um, member of the Ashcan school and a real social progressive. And in fact,

17:59the cartoon is now owned by the, he gave it as a gift to the NAACP. Um, and it's in their art collection. Um, but at the, at that age, I remember just thinking like, this is working on all the planes that I love, uh, humor, um, beauty, uh, uh, absurdity, um, uh, composition, movement, uh, the, uh, lights to darks, all the things that attract me. And I remember thinking like,

18:35this is, you know, it's up there with Goya and it should be on a museum wall next to a Goya. Um, and I remember sort of having this vague idea that a great gag cartoon is simply a great piece of art, um, and should be acknowledged as such. So, you know, in the last few years, um, last many years, I mean, there've always been sort of simplistic, um, cartoony, but there's been

19:09this kind of like turn away from people using wash and, and going and making them especially aesthetically pleasing. Um, and I kind of was wondering like in about five years ago, like, what do I, and I ask myself this every now and then, but like, what do I have to offer art? Um, I'm a middle-aged white dude right now. What is my thing that I have to offer? And I was looking

19:45back over my, my, my, my oeuvre and just realizing like, so, you know, so it's been humor. Um, and I feel like I do that better than most and, you know, drawing, and, and I also have a tendency to, um, have a lot of ideas as opposed to an artist who kind of picks one grand theme. And, um, and I remembered this thought I'd had about gag cartoons. Um, and I thought, you know, maybe cause

20:19I played with this forever, like sending in one, but I never knew what my aesthetic would be, what my, uh, you know, everyone has their kind of like signature style. Yeah. And so I started just like, you know what, I'm, I'm, I've kind of finished the skull series that I had done. Um, and I thought I'm going to try this, I'm going to try this in earnest and, um, ultimately when I succeed, uh, when I

20:49know that I'm a decent, uh, cartoonist, I can start considering which ones are the best ones and turning them into the paintings that I've always wanted to. But I also knew that unless I actually was able to publish with the New Yorker, none of this would really work. Um, I had to really go that extra mile. Uh, there's sort of like the last gatekeeper of that whole, uh, style, uh, you know, that

21:20phenomenon of the, of the gag cartoon, which to me, you know, and I, I didn't really say this when I was talking about why I love them so much, but when you think of the economy of a gag, a great gag cartoon, there are a little drawing, uh, often quite quickly drawn and then one line of text. And yet they, um, when they hit, they just are, nothing can compete with them. Um, uh, there are

21:55like, there are famous gag cartoons from the forties that became, you know, taglines and TV shows and, and, uh, uh, uh, a famous one that actually Evie white wrote the, um, caption for where a little girl is saying to her mother, um, I say, uh, I say it's spinach and I just, I say the hell with it. And that ended up becoming a Broadway play. And then, uh, uh, uh, it was, uh, there was a famous book of the time that was, that referenced the title of it. Cole Porter uses that line or references

22:29the line in the song. And so it's these weird look. And, and, um, so that fascinated me that you could get that much creative punch out of a little drawing and, and that much kind of cultural punch out of it. So I wanted to do them. And I kind of, in my mind, uh, uh, uh, a gag cartoon that hasn't been, that isn't at least struggling with the, uh, with, with, with trying to be as beautiful as a Mirandi,

23:00um, is, is, is, is sort of a lost opportunity. And so the large paintings to me were, and even the small paintings that I want, and they're not always going to be beautiful. I have to produce quite a few for the New Yorker to take me seriously. Um, but I try, I'm really engaged in many kind of painterly issues when I'm making them. But you're starting with ink on paper,

23:32correct? Yes. Yeah. Got it. Well, well, let's get, let's hone in a little bit more though on

Evolution of Cartoon Style

23:37just to clarify when you talk about what you said about doing was the first objective to have a body of cartoons that you could try submitting or, or sort of get to the level where you're kind of like, okay, I think I have this style or my particular, uh, you know, for, for the New Yorker cartoon, uh, down and I can start submitting, you know, what, what was that part of it? I, um, sort of spent a week or so going through, like, you know, I, I, I, I remember

24:12buying an ink pen and going like, am I going to do, am I, am I going to do them in cross, like cross hatching? Am I going to do them in, um, uh, uh, and I kind of, you know, I, I'm, I'm someone who is, uh, used to brushes. I love brushes. I've got a jet generally, I tend to push down too hard on a pen and, uh, a pencil, but somehow a brush I'm able to control. And, uh, uh, I, I'm more elegant

24:46with a brush. And so within a week, I kind of figured like, this is my, going to be my thing. I'm going to kind of return to the ink wash, um, style that was popular in the, like, you know, the twenties through the fifties. Um, and, uh, and within a week, I, I, someone I knew had gotten me the, um, the email of the cartoon editor and I wrote her and I, um, sent in three or four and

25:20she kind of critiqued, she, she, she was incredibly like quick to respond. Uh, she's since then turned out to be one, uh, like really one of the most capable people I've ever met. You know, I can't imagine how concerning how much work she has in front of her that she can take the time to write people back so promptly. Um, but, uh, and so, so like she was able to go like, okay, this one, you know, this one's heading in the right direction. And, uh, uh, this is the strongest one.

25:54And so I, I, I almost immediately started, I found out from, so I listened to some podcasts and the idea is that you're supposed to submit 10 a week. Okay. And, uh, so I was like, okay, I'm going to make, I'm going to make 10 and I'm going to submit them. And I did that. I started doing that pretty, pretty quickly. Um, and within the funny part is with, I think my second batch I'd sent in, she wrote back and she said, okay, there, this one was really strong. David Remnick

26:27really liked it, but it's just not there yet. So keep going. Wow. And, um, and I was like, oh my God, I'm so in, this is fantastic. What an easy, like, right. A year and a half later, they bought their first one. Were you sending cartoons every week after that? Wow. Okay. So you really, so it's like you really had great access, but you also really have to pay your dues. Yes. Got it. Yeah. It's something, you know, you hear lucky stories, you hear horror stories of like people who've done it for

27:0021, uh, Cyprus, one of their most popular cartoonists currently, uh, famously, um, submitted for 25 years before they bought one. Wow. Wow. So it can really, you know, I figured I, I would always have to, um, there were a couple of times when, you know, you didn't get any responses for a few months and you wanted at least someone to say like, this is great. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because they're the New Yorker, they don't have to. Um, so looking, so looking at the body that of the,

27:37of cartoons that you turned into paintings for this independent exhibition for sake of comparison, if you, if one, if you and I and, and people listening were to be looking at those and then they looked at the cartoons you were submitting over the first month that you just described, can you clearly see, Oh yeah, this is, this is a whole nother level. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And what, and if you could put it into words, you know,

28:07without obviously, you know, here we are in an audio medium, but without being too sort of boring, you know, or, uh, uh, you know, overly technical, how would you describe what it is that you've, you know, got after doing it for a year? Uh, a subtlety. There's, there's more elegance. There's more dark to light. Uh, um, the first ones were, you know, I, I'd often go in with a, a brush and really like bang it out very, like they were very gestural, but often in my mind now,

28:42very kind of, um, you know, I've gotten, I've gotten better at the control of the brush. Okay. Um, yeah. So it's kind of like you've become a better illustrator in a sense. Very much so. Yeah. And a lot of the, correct me if I'm wrong. I think a lot of a high percentage of the New York cartoon cartoons that are published in the New Yorker are, have some aspect to them that are, that is digital, a digital, you know, a Photoshop or illustrator, a combination, you know, uh,

29:14applications. Right. And it's, I'm picking up that maybe you don't, is that true or no? I do not. Yeah. Okay. So you're one of the outliers. You know, I, I scan them and I, I'll clean them up sometimes cause there's, I, you know, I have brush marks on it or, uh, cleaning the brush or something, but I, I am one of the, uh, I'm not the last, but there are, I'm one of the dwindling group, um, that uses, uh, you know, ink on paper. Right. And how many cartoons have you had published at this point in the magazine?

29:49Oh, 15 maybe. Okay. Okay. So you're still definitely in the kind of, uh, the, um, what's the word? I'm a baby. Yeah. Yeah. It was, it was something along those lines, right? You're kind of in the baby crew of the magazine, but you did recently have your cartoon featured in the caption contest. And I mentioned that specifically. And also that, that sort of prior question, because I'm really

30:20interested in the level of exposure. Right. And, you know, cause I think there are a lot of nuances there because it's not necessarily as simple as, Oh yeah, I'm publishing the New Yorker. Now everybody knows my work, right? Because people look at cart. I don't think a lot of, I I'm, I'm guessing, this is the total assumption that a lot of people who look at the New Yorker don't really maybe, I don't, I don't know. I'm kind of correcting myself as I go, but I feel like some

30:51people are like, Oh yeah, that's a really funny one, but they don't really notice consistently maybe that same cartoonist, but I think other people are very aware of that. Like, like Cypress, who you mentioned. Right. Um, and all, all to say, how do, how do you feel about comparing your kind of exposure in a magazine that has so many more eyeballs on it than any of your shows

Exposure and Recognition

31:16ever has? Right. How do you feel about that distinction? That's been fascinating to me. Um, yeah, I did a cartoon, uh, about a month ago, three weeks ago for the, um, for the website, for the New Yorker website. Uh huh. And it ended up going viral. It was, um, um, it was a daily cartoon. So I literally like woke up that morning, didn't know what my cartoon was going to be. Uh, at nine,

31:48I had sent in a sketch for it. And by noon it was all over the place. Okay. Can you describe what it looks like and read? It's a cartoon of a number of ice agents all standing around, like 15 ice agents standing around. One of them is looking at his watch. Yeah. And, uh, he's like, does anyone know when this, what, what time, uh, what time is this kid supposed to get out of class again? I saw that one. Yes. I remember that. Yeah. I could see how that went viral. Yes. And, um,

32:24uh, and it actually ended up being remade in Turkish. A Turkish artist saw it. Wow. Recreated it, uh, gave me credit, but recreated it for in Turkish, uh, for a Turkish audience. And it ended up winning and like an award. Wow. For the best cartoon of the week. There's in, in the, in the, um, Islamic world, uh, editorial cartoons are, have an import that

32:54they don't have anymore here. Right. Um, and, uh, so it was just such a, it was such an amazing thing to have, to, to have something where at seven in the morning, you're sitting there, you don't know what you're, you're drawing. Um, and then have it become this kind of world thing by the end of the day. Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah. So you must be really pleased with your decision to five years ago to get into cartooning. I I'm totally engaged with it. I find it absolutely still fascinating.

33:30Um, and I, it's, I feel like I'm still getting better at it. Um, you know, I was worried I have this tendency to get involved in something and then decide I've gotten good enough and then quit. Right. Right. Um, and, um, and this thing, like I, I've totally, really see myself doing this for the rest of my life. Right. And, and just to go back to the level of exposure again, I think this might have been sort of implied, but maybe not, even though you had

34:09this arc through the course of a day in which you had no idea for a cartoon and then you made it and then it went viral and it was published in, you know, it was redone by another cartoonist in, in Turkey and won an award. Um, you still, it, all the engagement I would imagine you're having is virtual as it's like social media or, you know, the internet or what have you, as opposed to, you know, I mean, there, there's the, that, that there's the same thing for that with art,

34:42of course, but there is this added element of studio visits and exhibitions and so on and openings and so on. Right. Where I guess you can have a much more awkward version of, you know, encountering your audience, but like, I mean, is that something that you've thought about? Um, you know, is it as satisfying as maybe I would imagine it is to have a cartoon go viral is the sort of disconnect between you and your audience? Is that at all? Um, you know,

35:13disconcerting or, or unsatisfying by not to put words in your mouth? Uh, they're, they, they hit different notes. I mean, when I, I did the independent and I was there all four days with the gallery. Uh, um, and, and this is where, where I feel that I am somewhat lucky and is being a, I generally, um, you know, I come out of performance and I'm, I have an easy time with people, even if I'm aware of all the awkwardness. Yeah. Um, and you know, the, the, the, the cartoon that

35:44you brought up, um, I recently reposted because, you know, after four days of, you know, just hundreds of people telling me that I was fantastic. Yeah. The next, you know, I was, I was back in the studio, just wondering, like really could have used, I could have used it re-portioned. So like, you know, two or three people a day. Yeah. Cause it was just like a real, you know, Oh God, now, now I'm right back where I started. Just like, I have to come up with some idea.

36:16Right. Well, I was going to say that, that it seems like the come down, the hangover after all of that love would be, uh, hard. It was not easy. It took a week. Yeah. Right. Like, okay, this is what it's like on a, you know, living a normal version of my life. Exactly. Yeah. Got it. Got it. And so let's back up for listeners who, I don't know if I will have said this in the intro,

Independent Art Fair Exhibition

36:41but you had, uh, an exhibition of paintings of your cartoons at the independent art fair that that was what you were describing where everybody was coming. Yes. And, and so just, just to, um, be clear, did you simply or complexly take the cartoons that you had made and then project them and paint them onto these canvases? Is that what, or did you outsource it? Oh no, no. I did all the painting. Okay. Yeah. And, and, and would you say that the paintings are very, very true to the

37:15cartoons or was there a little bit of liberty taken? There's a little bit of liberty, but they're mostly true. I mean, what I got really into, and this is sort of silly, but, um, the idea of them being, you know, in, in my mind, they're paintings from the very beginning. Um, I'm imagining them as paintings, even though I'm, I, I kind of see the cartoons as sketches for paintings. Okay. Um,

37:48and sketches that also kind of like live this strange life where they, they perform this job and then they're used as reference for me. Um, yeah. And, but so while I'm drawing them, I'm imagining, you know, the different, cause so, so to briefly describe the paintings, um, they're generally a, I, I choose a background color, um, and, um, I mix it with, um, molding paste and gesso. And I create

38:21this very, uh, almost like plaster like surface, but it's a tinted plaster like surface, uh, that kind of, it comes off a little bit like paper. Um, it feels like paper when you're, when you're, when the, the way the, um, oil paint works on it. And, uh, and then I choose the paint. Um, they, they end up being sort of color studies because there's a paint, there's the, there's two colors going on and the,

38:55the, um, the line work and the washes are done in another color. So, and, uh, one has a buff background, with, um, with, uh, like an, kind of an iron oxide violet. Um, so they become, and, and what I get really wrapped up in is basically like classic old school glazing, uh, layer upon layer of, um, very, uh, thin, uh, thin washes. Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. And so they end up being

39:32very, like really holding their space for, uh, you know, scientific reasons. Cause there's so, there's so many layers of paint and, uh, there's so many light fractals hitting it. Yeah. That they kind of almost glow. Huh? Uh, so you are really underscoring a huge distinction between the mediated version of experiencing these and the in-person one. Yes. Yeah. They're

40:04much more painterly than you think they are everybody. So you should definitely go check them out in person. If you have that opportunity is what you're doing. Yeah. It's actually funny. Like I don't really post them online that much because they come off looking like prints or something. Right. Um, and every, cause everyone's also so used to seeing my stuff small that they just kind of make the assumption that it's like a little small thing and it doesn't represent them at all. Right. Right. And, and yeah, I mean, most of them for, for, you know, just as a little

40:39description are basically two tone, they almost feel monochrome, but they are, you've got the background color, which is usually kind of a subtle, you know, tone, maybe a little pastel-y and then you've got the over, you know, the, the, the drawing or the painting of the illustration on top of that color. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and what cartoon or what painting would you say, if there was one got the most attention or, uh, was quoted back to you or, or say, you know,

41:14was beloved the most, would you say? Uh, uh, there were two that just, um, yeah. Uh, the, um, these were better as JPEGs. Right. Um, which had been in the, which had been in the magazine. And I saw that in the magazine. Uh, that, uh, no, no, no, that was, I saw that online. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was originally an art. Cause that for a year, when I was trying to get into the New Yorker. Yeah. I, I started, uh, I, I was kept coming up with these art gags

41:45that I knew that they weren't going to be terribly interested in because they were so inside baseball. Right. And, um, so I approached, uh, Hrag from, uh, hyperallergic, uh, with a couple of them and he started running them. Um, and they got a really nice response. And, uh, a little later I was, I was really kind of angling to get up. I've always been fascinated by the American idea of like the, the hack a little bit, uh, the, uh, and I wanted to do a weekly cartoon. It was very

42:20important to me for some reason at the time that, um, uh, that I have kind of like a weekly spot that came out at the same time and it forced me to just produce. And, uh, so I approached ArtNet and they are agreed to do a weekly spot. So for a year I did a weekly art cartoon for ArtNet. And a lot of these came from that because they were, um, because, you know, like I could tell which ones worked. It was, it was, it was a fast, I'm really glad I did it when it was finished. I was very sad. No,

42:53I was actually very relieved. We'd stopped because coming up with an art gag every week is not always easy. Yeah. Um, but within a, within a couple of weeks, I missed it terribly.

43:06And what was the second one that you, uh, it was another ArtNet one and that's, um, uh, two people sitting in a room under this Picasso and, uh, the, what, you know, what the one man says, well, it's the, it's not the Picasso we wanted, but it's the Picasso we've learned to live with.

43:28Wow. That actually, I think condenses rich people really well. Mazel tov on that. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so I'm looking at another one that I wanted to ask you about. It's a woman and a guy who are standing next to this installation slash sculpture, uh, with some plants and a structure and, uh, and so on. And the woman I believe is saying, I don't know if

44:01we're looking at art or just someone's elaborate coping mechanism. Right. And the reason I'm curious about this one, I mean, there, let's just say you can divide the two cat, the cartoons and the cartoon paintings into two categories, one insider baseball, right. And then the others much more broad. And this one is total insider baseball and it actually seems very targeted or referencing a particular artist. And I just wanted to see if indeed people made that connection or they did

44:36not. People very much made the connection. Yeah. Uh, and did you hear from the artist? I did. Oh, well, I heard from what in my mind, it was one artist in many other people's mind. It was another artist. Oh, interesting. Okay. Um, and I think I'm thinking of artist number one, for sure. I guess it's, it was funny because, um, it was actually, uh, Rashid Johnson actually

45:06reached out to me. Yeah. Asking whether this was about him. Right. We continue that conversation, that reveal on the full bonus episode on Patreon. I know, I know you really want me to give it away here, but I'm sorry. I need to have more support for the show. And so this is the best way that I know of to do so. You can support the show for as little as a dollar a month, ideally a little bit

45:38more, if not $5 a month and up. Patreon.com slash the conversation pod. You will get to hear the full hour eight conversation with Guy, as well as all the past bonus episodes going back the last couple of years. So I mentioned in the intro that I got a couple of very encouraging emails. I wanted to run

Encouraging Emails and Art Sales

45:59those by you before we go. And maybe you go over to Patreon and listen to the full exchange. So on June 27th, so a little less than a week ago, I received an email from Jennifer Ann with the subject line art purchase. And I was pretty excited. I opened the email and it read, Dear space comma space Michael. I think I'm pretty sure that's a Victorian style of greeting, which

46:35made me very encouraged. She goes on, I hope this message finds you well. My name is Jennifer Ann, an art collector originally from France, now based in New York. I recently came across your work and was captivated by your distinct style and creative vision. You know how good that makes me feel, right? Your art left a lasting impression on me. Isn't that ultimately what we as artists want in our

47:06viewers and supporters? I'm reaching out to express my interest in acquiring some of your pieces as digital collectibles, NFTs in parentheses, for my personal collection. Specifically, I would like to offer 2.5 ETH in parentheses approximately $6,500 for three artworks each. Additionally, I'd love to explore the possibility of acquiring two more pieces from your portfolio if we find a mutual fit. If this

47:38proposal resonates with you, I'd be delighted to discuss the next steps. Please let me know your availability at your convenience. Looking forward to your response. Warm regards, Jennifer Ann, New York, USA. Now, the fact that she's now in New York, specifically the New York and USA, was additionally encouraging to me because that is really the center point of the world in terms of art collectors.

48:10So that was very encouraging. And before I could even reply to Jennifer Ann, the next day, the 28th of June, I received an email from another person, a woman named Lisa Littlefield. I actually got an email to both of my gmails, both a conversation gmail as well as my personal gmail, which made me feel particularly valued, you know, because they really wanted to reach me. And here's what she wrote.

48:40Hi. No comma. I'm not sure if that's a different, older era of punctuation, but in any case, I was not discouraged because it was definitely its own particular style. Hi. I hope you're well. I recently saw your artwork and felt really inspired by your unique style. I would love to learn more about the ideas behind your work. It's always flattering when people want to know what's going on behind my work. I'm also interested in buying one or two pieces and would like to

49:13discuss that with you when you have time. I do have time, as a matter of fact. Let's get this conversation started. She goes on. Please feel free to reply to this email. I look forward to hearing from you. Best regards, Lisa. And, you know, I know that some of you might be concerned on my behalf because you think this might be a scam, but let me tell you something. Lisa has a legitimate email that she sent from. It's littlefieldlisaa at gmail.com. You know how you can tell if it's a scam?

49:49It's one of those crazy emails that doesn't make any sense, and it's usually not a Gmail. It's like some kind of bogus or barely like hotmail or something like that. But this is Gmail. This is legit. Littlefieldlisaa at gmail.com. So if you hear from Lisa Littlefield, maybe we can talk about what kind of offer we should make her, what would be the best, most likely amount that she would want to buy up most of our back catalog with. So reach out to me and let me know, and we'll reach out.

50:21Maybe we'll reach out to her on the same day, and we can compare notes afterward. All right? So I wanted to share that with you. I hope it's encouraging, gives you a little bit more of a lay of the land from my perspective. When it comes to selling your work, I should be running this by Guy as well because he's spent a lot of time selling his work online. He would be a good person to vet this with. So Guy, if you could let me know what you think, I would appreciate it a lot. All right?

50:53I'm going to leave it at that for now. I look forward to corresponding with Guy, and with all of you who have had similar emails, or if not the very same emails from these very same individuals, and we can figure out our next best steps. I wanted to crowdsource this situation so that we can make the best moves together. All right? I hope you're doing well. Thank you for listening, and I hope that you were able to join on Patreon and listen to the whole conversation. If not, be well, and chat for now.

51:27Thank you for listening, and I'll see you next time. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.