Episode 376: Merging art & life and leaving the city for the country: artist couple and collaborators Gribaudi-Plytas.

Introduction to The Conversation

0:00This is The Conversation. It's a podcast that goes behind the scenes and between the lines of the contemporary art world. Welcome to the show. I'm Michael Shaw. This is episode 376 with Alex and Theo Grabaudi Pleitas. They are an artist duo and couple living and working in the southern region of Champagne in France. More on them and what they do. In a moment,

0:32the website for the show is theconversationpod.com where you can see images of their home, which is an old school house converted to a house and a studio. You can see their spikes of mild steel making their sculpture penis and you can compare one of their London studios with their current studio. More on them in a minute and I want to just structure this intro hopefully four or five minutes tops so you know what to listen for. No fast forwarding. I'm going to talk about their

1:07experience of being priced out of London studios and eventually moving to the country. Quick thank you to producer Aaron Craig, gauging your interest in podcast merch, including potentially p-word t-shirts, a call out for a co-host to join me for an episode discussing last one laughing series, question of whether to offer another open call, and finally benefits of being part of the conversation

Alex and Theo's Background

1:31family. Okay, so let's start with number one. Alex and Theo talk about moving around from studio to studio like they settle for a year or so and then up. They're priced out. Eventually, a few years ago, they moved to a tiny village or town in Champagne, France, where they are now. We talk about that actually in the second Patreon part of the show, but you'll get a little preview of that. In any case,

2:03they were uprooted. I have rarely been uprooted, but now I have been uprooted recently back at the end of last year from my studio of many years, and I have been in my apartment for many years as well, even longer, and maybe will continue here, but received a text from the realtor representing the siblings who own this property. It's basically a house converted into three units called the

2:33triplex. I'd actually kind of like to move to the country too, as Alex and Theo have done.

Moving to the Country

2:38So, but, you know, look at the real estate market in the U.S. as well as abroad in many places. It's crazy, and I suspect somehow, this is a very small sample size that I am thinking of, but I suspect that a fair amount of you are homeowners. If you were either a homeowner or a renter, I would love to hear from you. You know, even if it's just a few of you, it will sort of give a little specificity and color

3:08to who you guys are as a renter slash homeowner population, so do reach out. I want to briefly thank producer Aaron Craig, who has been contributing to the show for several months now and has been invaluable in helping with the open call we did back in the fall, and as well, just continuing on with helping figure out who we're going to have as guests on the show. So, big thank you to Aaron, and if you are at all interested in contributing to the show in sort of the backroom way, do reach out. There's

3:44always room for an extra pair of hands, so theconversationartpodcast.gmail.com if you're at all interested. Next, are you interested in any podcast merch? Because I was approached by a platform

Podcast Merch and Open Call

3:59that basically helps you produce and sell merch for your podcast, and we did do a thing thanks to Patrick Camuti many years ago who helped design a P-Word t-shirt, and that could be done again. In fact, I love the idea of Alex and Theo in this small village in southern region of Champaign wearing P-Word t-shirts. We actually have a little bit of a thing about the P-Word at a certain point. I can't remember

4:30if it's in the first half or the second that is only available to Patreon people, but let's just say that the P-Word has come up as a thing occasionally on the show. It stands for the P-R-A-C-T-I-C-E word, which I don't like to say, and I ended up saying it because I was just so swayed by Alex's use of it somehow. In any case, let me know if you're interested in P-Word t-shirts, and we'll make that happen again. The next thing is I have become fairly fascinated, I don't know if obsessed is too strong a word, with the

Last One Laughing Series

5:07series Last One Laughing. They have many countries represented, and it's basically a group of 10 comedians and or actors and or improvisers get together and sit in a room for six hours performing slash improvising for each other, and the last one who laughs wins. The money goes to charity, though, so it's symbolic, but it's definitely very competitive. I am interested in it for many reasons and would love to connect with somebody out there who is also interested in the show and

5:42would like to do a one-off, maybe two-off episode talking about the show. So if that is you, please reach out. Should we offer another open call for guests for the show? We did that back in October, kind of eventually produced some guests later in the year and early this year. It's something that I'm definitely open to have been reached out to by a couple of people specifically saying, you know, when are you going to do the next open call? I would be interested to know from you listening, whether that's something that you're interested in, either as being a potential guest

6:15yourself or whether you are interested in hearing from guests who come from the open call. So reach out to ConversationRpodcast.gmail.com or via social media to let me know. And finally, as we have been doing for the last maybe six months now, generally the second half, a little bit more than the first half will be available to you, the public feed listeners. But we put the little bit less than the second half behind the Patreon paywall. So you can join Patreon though at patreon.com slash

6:52the conversation pod for as little as a dollar a month. It would be great if a few of you came on board again. And I'm thinking that at the $5 or more level a month that I will start doing virtual cafes again, basically where we get together periodically as a group and chat the little side community of the conversation. So again, if you would like to support the show, if you like listening and you want to keep listening to more content, that's the best way to do it. And I'm putting out in addition to this full conversation with Alex and Theo, the final installment of Artists on

7:29the Stickiness of Social Media, the two final contributors to that, both of which are fascinating. So I hope that is enticing enough to you. Finally, in the second half, or a little less than the second half, we do, Alex and Theo, get more into describing why they had to eventually leave London. It was something they wanted to do, but they were moving from studio to studio. And they moved into a former schoolhouse built in 1879, along with the house next door, which they're basically turning into their

7:59studio slash home compound, you know, with a garden. And they're going to have one room that's for welding, another room for photography, another room for painting, etc. Very idyllic sounding. It's still coming together. It's a slow three years, and it's still very much in the works, as Alex will tell you. We also talk about their relationship with social media, meta slash Instagram particular, on the back half. So there's a lot of good stuff. The conversation

8:29essentially keeps getting better and better as time goes on. So I encourage you to join the Patreon family and get to hear the whole thing. I hope you're doing well. Happy June, June gloom, early June, probably my favorite time of the year in Southern California, because you got the, especially if you're close to the coast, you have the extended periods of marine layer that may or may not burn off later in the afternoon. So I'm enjoying that. About the world at large, the less said the better, right? I hope you are doing well. Thank you very much for listening. And I will talk to you soon.

9:03Until then, ciao for now.

Interview with Alex and Theo

9:11So Alex and Theo, hello. Nice to, I think, pretty sure after 14 plus years, this is the first time I've had a guest in France that I can think of. So yeah, very exciting. Let's see. So I think the the place I was interested in beginning perhaps briefly is I'm very curious what the lens looks like in your part of the world, which is a rural area in France, right? What does the larger world

9:48look like from there as far as the way that news, you know, filters in? Obviously we all now get, can have whatever amount of news that we want, but what does it feel like on the ground, you know, in the community? Is it something that you, you know, that you can't avoid the way that, you know, in workplaces and cities you can't, you know, what is that dynamic like for you guys? Well, I mean, it's easier to kind of shut the world out and just be in your zone and

10:21be closer to nature and just do your thing. But obviously we read the news a lot and we hear people talking around us and it just seems very dire and extremely violent and sad period of time. And that's what we feel here. And we see it in the way that there is like huge disparity where we live. There are people who are extremely rich and people who are extremely poor in the middle class is kind of dwindling. And so that's how it feels. Yeah.

Living in a Rural Town

10:56Yeah. Right. So even in your, and how, just to give people an idea, how, what's the population of the town that you're living in now? A hundred people? A hundred and fifty. A hundred and fifty. A hundred and fifty. Okay. Yeah. And then, but you are like adjacent to a town that, that is, that is quite a bit bigger or how far away is the town that's more substantial? There's a town, there's a town 10 minute drive away and I have no idea of the population, but it's really small as well. I mean, there, there's one big main street and then it's like

11:29got the church and then a few streets and, and then a supermarket and a few building merchants. And that's pretty much it. And then the biggest town close to us is Troyes and that's 45 minutes away. And that's, I don't know how big it is. It's not massive either, but it is an actual city, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Troyes. Troyes. Yeah. Like Troyes. Yeah. It's basically spelled like Troyes, but it's pronounced Troyes, like three. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Got it. Right. Right. Right. Right. Uh, I should have said, by the way, salut, uh, bonsoir, um, bonsoir. And how far from Paris

12:08are you approximately? We're about 195 kilometers. So it depends if you take the train or the car by car to two and a half hours by train two hours. Okay. Got it. Got it. Um, yeah, I was curious, uh, you know, from our last conversation, you know, what, uh, I mean, I think the, you're talking about Alex, the income inequality or the wealth inequality is so universal, you know, and it's like, you're in this small town and you see

12:41it, you know? So that's an interesting observation and reality to have in a rural, rural area. And we should say that we, that we talked about last time for what it's worth for people listening that you're in the Champagne region. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And so are there a fair amount of vineyards around? Vineyards? Yeah. Vineyards, I guess. Yeah. Vineyards all around us. And that's what I mean. Everywhere. Everywhere. Yeah. So we're in the, we're actually at the end of the

13:14Champagne, uh, how do you say the region? Region. Region. Yeah. But that doesn't mean that after our region, they don't produce wine. So it's just another appellation. Yeah. It's like a burgundy wine. It becomes after us. Okay. Yeah. Where we are, it's like, uh, the lower, the south of Champagne. So it's a, it's the Côte des Bars. It's a, it's a different, different kind of place from the, uh, north where the most, the biggest Champagne houses are, but it's a, it's a very

13:44interesting place to be where we are. It's, it's, um, people are really passionate about Champagne here and, you know, they produce extremely good, um, produce, you know, after there's a lot of things to think about, about the way that they treat many of their workers. But, um, uh, I guess that's a, that's the same in all this world. Whether it's a chicken farm or, yeah, you know, labor is, um, labor is a kind of a weird one. Yeah. And how, and

14:18this is a different aspect of that reality, but how common is it for the vineyards, for the Champagne producing or, or wine producing, um, establishments to have like tasting rooms, you know, that whole ritual. Oh, all of them. All of them. They all do. So like, if you were, if I was visiting you, let's say I could drive around one day and I could hit like 10 or more wineries and do, do a tasting test at all these places. That is actually what

14:48we do. When we do with people who come here. Oh, is that right? Okay. Yeah. People love it. And it's not, it's, it's cheaper here. And we are on the touristic route routes of Champagne. So it becomes, it becomes tourism, you know, people come here for the landscape to enjoy different kinds of Champagne and bring back home. Yeah. Do you coach your visitors to be very careful? Be very deliberate because I mean, it's enough to be moderate when you

15:24are doing wine tasting, but doesn't Champagne give you a buzz faster? Isn't that the reality? It does. Yeah. But in what way do you mean? Like do we coach them, you know, like to not, I mean, in other words, if you're not spitting out enough, you know, that you could get very drunk very quickly. Our friends want to get drunk. Right. Okay. So by the, by the end of the day, they're basically passed out in your car. Well, we usually don't drink because we drive and they're just passed out. One of us decides who's going to be drinking with

15:59our friends and then, you know, but if you do one, you know, you just, uh, just, they give you also not huge glasses. Well, it depends where you go, but yeah. But the other thing is also if we're going locally in our town, you can walk and have like, let's say four or five tasting and not take the car. So just in our village, you know? So yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. And since you were on the route, does that mean then that you have, uh, I don't know, wealthy French people or for that matter, wealthy international people, tourists coming through

16:33your area more or less? It's a mix because it's a mix, you know, the, the bigger houses are in the North, you know, and here it's actually the cheapest champagne you can find will be sold around here. There are many rich people and there are many, you know, there's also middle-class and more working class, you know, there's a mix of people I would say that come here. And also here we're on the route to go from Paris to Italy. So there's also people just going to, or to the South of France or so people just coming here and

17:05you might just stop off cause they see a champagne place and it is much cheaper than the North. So it's not like the biggest, like most expensive place. It's still expensive. Right. I gotcha. Okay. Got it. And one other, I think one, I may keep going, but one other question, um, since this sort of kind of came up is how close are you to a highway, you know, that would actually take somebody all the way down to Italy or would that, is that just, is it just from your region? Yeah.

17:3630, well, it'd be the 85 or 35 minutes. Uh-huh. From a motorway going all the way South really. Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah. So then you could potentially get people from the North coming through. Oh, we do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, yeah. A lot of our neighbors also have businesses as in that they rent their houses out. Like, you know, they have a part of their house that they rent out to people. And it's not usually people who rent it out for like, say two weeks to do their holiday, but it's people on their way to

18:06their holiday who would stop off for a night or two get some champagne maybe, but just need a place to stay. Yeah. How do they find out about the lodging? Airbnb mostly. Oh, so they are. That's what I was worried about. Is that, is that, is it small enough so that it's not really affecting the community or is it? Yes. It's small enough. Okay. Oh yeah. No, yeah. And also, also there's another one. And so they usually have it on Airbnb, but they also have it on Gilles de France, which is a better thing. Like our friends try to.

18:40Yeah. Yeah. But it's basically like these, um, this French kind of label that you can get and they also get a web, they also have a website that you can look at places. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I would encourage people to, to, who are traveling in France to, to check out that version of a place to stay. And just like here, I might recommend people check out VRBO, you know, another vacation rental platform that is not, uh, you know, doesn't have the baggage and, um,

19:12you know, the, uh, terrible gentrification qualities of Airbnb. So, yeah. All right. Well, thank you for setting us up for where you are, you know, and, and we'll get more, more into that later, I presume, but all to finally get to the fact that you guys are artists. You met in art school,

Art School Experiences

19:33correct? In London. So do you want to talk about where you came from each of you before going to art school? A little, just a little overview. Right. Well, we have similar kind of stories, actually. We both come from Paris and we're both a mix of nationalities. So I'm a mix between Greek, French, English, and Vietnamese. And Alex is... I'm, uh, Scottish, Italian, and French.

20:05Yeah. Wow. And we both went to London to study, um, at uni, basically. And Alex did, um, she studied fine art at CSM, Central St. Martins, the UAL, which, and I studied photography at, um, LCC, which was formerly London College of Printing, but it changed to London College of Communication. Mm-hmm. So, and we met in the halls. Yeah, we met in the halls. And, uh, our, our, our best friend Rebecca introduced us and then

20:37we kind of just really like got on, you know, we were really good friends and then we became more. Yeah. Mm-hmm. But we, some, we just connect, you know, on pretty much everything and it, it works out for the art, you know? Yeah. Let, let's go back for a second because I need some clarification. You met in halls? Oh, in the halls. Oh, yes. Halls of residence. That's where like you would sleep, like, you know. Oh, the dorms, like the dorms. Yes, exactly. Okay. Okay. So you were, even though you were going to different schools, you were lodging

21:11in essentially the same place. Because it's, University of Arts London has different schools. So it has Central St. Martins, Chelsea, Camberwell, Wimbledon, LCC. LCF. LCF. Am I forgetting any? Probably. Um, we might be forgetting one, but, um, we love them if we, if we did. Um, but, um, so, and it's, uh, basically the dorms you can, you basically share. So it's great. So you get to meet different people. And also it's fun because you, you, I don't know if you still

21:42can, but when we went, you could like go to the, you know, the, the different libraries and you had a pass to go into any of the campuses via schools. So it's, it's, it was a good time, you know? And so, yeah. So if you'd make friends in the dorm that was somewhere else, you could kind of meet up for the day and still be granted access to the school. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. I guess that's, that was quite good as an experience. It was really good. And also, you know, um, the schools have their different, their specialities.

22:16Central St. Martin's is, you know, as Gabby said, um, more known for its fashion, but it also has a good metal and wood workshop and, uh, LCC where Theo went has a really good dark room and photography course, you know? So, um, it also has a Stanley Kubrick archive. Um, so it's cool. It's, it, it was cool. Printing facilities too. It's a shame that you have to pay and that's, you know, but, um, in the U S you guys have that too, but it's worth for you guys. Cause you have to pay back and we're not really paying.

22:50What do you, what do you clarify? What do you mean by it's a shame you have to pay? Well, because in France, for example, you don't have to pay to go to university, you know? Oh, okay. Got it. Yeah. So it's, it's, yeah. Whether it's a private or an, or a public university, you have to, you have to pay a tuition. Yeah, exactly. And here, if it's public, you don't have to pay basically in France. I mean, and so our friends, our friends here are like, Oh, you went there. Why? And now you have a huge debt. Right, right, right. Okay. And LCC, is that the one you went to Theo?

23:23Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so how far geographically or by, you know, by distances is, is that from central St. Martin's, for example? Uh, Northern line, 30 minutes, 30 minutes by tube or like, right. See that that's, so this is really confusing. Still, you, you have these common dorms, but these schools can be up to an hour apart from each other, right? That's London, you know, London's huge, you know? I see. Yeah. If you, if you just like, Wimbledon's like really far away, for example.

23:58We used to live, after uni, we went to East London to live, and where we have our studios too. And if we, let's say we had a show to go to West London, it'd take us maybe an hour and sometimes two, you know? I mean, it depends if it's really far out. If there's problems on the tube, you have to take three different buses that you'd really reconsider going or not. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. Interesting. So you guys have beautifully mixed heritage,

24:31right? You're living in Paris, because, and that, and is that where you both grew up? Uh, well, I grew up in the, in the suburb of, of, um, of Paris for my first nine years. And then I moved there. Uh-huh. Paris. Yeah. Uh-huh. And Theo? And I grew up like in Paris. I call it Paris. I mean, it's, it's, it's definitely, it's definitely Paris, but it's not like the center, the touristic kind of Paris. Sure. But it's the 13th. That's a, that's a, that's genuinely Paris. Yeah. That's, that's fine. Proud to be, I lived there all my life.

25:04Got it. So, so here's why I'm asking. So you guys are in Paris and you decide to go to art school, essentially each year respective art schools, and you decide you're going to go to London. Um, so part of me is thinking you guys are so, you know, international, you have such international, um, families that you want to maybe, um, uh, pick up your, your English maybe on one

25:35hand, but also perhaps much more importantly, you want to connect more closely with the international art scene or is London just compared to Paris and France generally so much better for, for the kinds of things you were studying. I think at that point, art wasn't my priority in terms of a career. I was just there for the experience and to get away from the place I've had grown up in like all my life. Yeah. Right. And London kind of had this, uh, this free kind of a bit, you know, punk kind of, uh,

26:13eclectic, uh, vibe to it, which was appealing to me. Yeah. Yeah. And I was also, I loved the punk era and, uh, I've always gone to London a lot cause I have some family around there and I just like, I think compared to Paris, it's just so different, but it's also really close. So it just felt natural. And my mom's Scottish and has some links to London, many links to London and, and Theo's dad, you know, was born in London and, um, and worked for many years, you know, and was part of the punk

26:48scene himself. So, you know, it just felt for both of us a very, it made sense to kind of, it made sense. Yeah. With our, I don't know, origins, I guess. Yeah. One of our origin, you know. One of our origins, yeah. So your dad was part of the punk scene, Theo? Well, he's, he, like all kids kind of, uh, growing up in London, I guess he, yeah, he, he was, he, he was, funnily enough, he was at Central St. Martins, which was, um, before in the, back in the days,

27:19it was called just Central. Okay. Yeah. Because it used to be Central and there was another art school that was St. Martins and I think they merged both of them later. Yeah. So he was at Central, but you know, Theo's uncle was in, um, was a pianist for The Clash and, um, and, um, and Theo's dad printed some of Vivian Westwood's, like, um, T-shirts and stuff when she started out. So just. Right. Yeah. There was that, there was that kind of, um. That's, that's awesome. That's

27:53some very cool family history to have. So what do you think about this, both of you? Um, I just saw, you know, there's, I don't know if it's a, if it's a trend that's been happening recently or if it's just something that kind of continually goes on, but these bands, you know, from decades ago that when they were popular are, you know, having reunion or whatever tours. And so I saw just a couple of weeks ago or maybe even last week, the sex pistols, you know, are doing a show and without, without

28:29Johnny Rotten, what some guy I'd never heard of is going to be the lead singer. I mean, that the way they described it in the ad, you know, they said featuring whatever this guy's name is, who's obviously going to be the singer. I'm just wondering if you heard about that and if you have any opinions about it. And I'll say, um, for what it's worth that I saw them in New York, uh, in their filthy, their filthy Lucre tour, which was in the late nineties. Wow. Cool. Super cool. Yeah. Well, we didn't know that at all, but that's, uh, that's fun. I mean,

29:01it's cool and must've been so cool to see them in the nineties. Well, I have a theory. Yeah, it was. Um, I have a theory as to why, uh, Johnny Lydon slash rotten is not taking part is because he's a trumper apparently. Oh no. Really? Yeah. Well, I don't know to what extent, but he was wearing a MAGA either t-shirt or hat at some point. All right. Well, that's awful. I know. I know. It's really awful. I mean, yeah, it, it, it makes

29:31you sick, doesn't it? Um, okay. So enough, enough about him. Um, so you guys are in the dorms, you're going to these separate schools, you connect, you vibe and so on. Can you give each, give me maybe some highlights or maybe just your most prominent memories from your respective art school experiences? Wow. I know there's a lot to choose from. So take your

30:01time. On what aspect? Well, I guess, I guess I just want a, um, a snapshot or a, an example, you know, uh, of, uh, a painting, a picture of, of what your, you know, either of what your school was like, or of what your particular experience with your school was like, you know, whether it was in a crit, you know, or, uh, an opening or, you know, or even just like welding, you know,

30:35a sculpture, anything, anything that stands out. Yeah. Go for it. For me, all of those are valuable memories. I mean, I've got so many good memories of my uni days. Um, I love those years, but, uh, I guess let's start with the first one and one of the, on the first week and people that have, were in my class will remember this. I had this tutor called Lee Clark, who's a really good artist as well. And, um, he would go through our sketchbooks and, um, and you would kind of be lined up and, uh, he would go through them and if

31:11they were not good enough or he felt we hadn't put enough work or been genuine enough, he would literally throw them in the bin. I didn't know that. And that was kind of an introduction to, um, art school. Wow. I mean, that was, of course there was a bit of theatrical element to it saying, yeah, yeah. You know, it was to, to, to shake people up, to kind of push people to, to not be scared, to be themselves, to put down on, on the, in their sketchbook

31:44where they really feel and not just, uh, not just be, uh, kind of, uh, like everyone else. Yeah. Right. Did you, did you retrieve your, your sketchbook if he threw it in the bin? Yeah, of course. It was, it was, it was. Right, right. Yeah. That's great though. That's great. Yeah. Cool. What about you, Alex? Anything cropping up? Um, so many things. I mean, it was just such a good time, but yeah, I really enjoyed the metal workshop. It was so, it was such a, I mean, I don't know. I liked it all. It was, it was, I remember the

32:16first, um, you know, the first year, cause we did foundation, which is a year where you can kind of try everything out. And then the first year of actual uni, uh, it was just amazing to have like a studio, you know, where you could do whatever you wanted. And I just used the wall and like, I just was so free on it, you know, and it was, it was cool. And then everyone had their own space and their own way of doing it. And some people didn't use the space at all. And then just came up with their computer and just had these pieces on

32:50that. I don't know. It's just, it was just so, it was just such a cool time, like all these different amazing people to, to be inspired by and to discuss with. And just, it was just, it was so fun, you know? And it was like, we were so free and you, you come out of your childhood a bit and then you're in a new city and you're just, you're able to, to run free. And it was great. We, it was a time of, um, of freedom. We were very privileged and very, very lucky

33:22to have that experience. When you say amazing people, are you thinking as much your fellow students as, you know, artists who were teaching there or just artists who were shows you were seeing or just a mix of all of that? What, what in particular? There I was thinking more about the students, but obviously the, I mean, the tutors were amazing. I mean, I had Emma Talbot in my last year and she's just such an amazing, amazing artist. And, um, and, you know, so many Clooney Reed, you know, they, it was just, it was, it was

33:57really inspiring. They're, they're just such, um, it was, it was cool. I liked it. And then the technicians, um, uh, the guy in the metal workshop, I don't, I've forgotten his family name, but you know, David and he was just so, so, um, what's his family name? David Stewart. I don't know. I think it's David Stewart. And he was, he was such an inspiration and he was really, you know, he just really liked metal work and he was good at showing you just metals, the kind of thing you can just go for. And he, he kind of fished you to go for it. Oh,

34:30yeah. That's great. I mean, that's really, I think I, it doesn't sound like one could ask for a better art school experience than, than what you guys had. I think, yeah, for me, it was free. It would, should have been free. I really am very, you know, adamant about education should be free because we arrived. What was it? The second year after it became, well, I know it was the first year because basically it used to be free in the UK. Then they put it up to, I think it was a thousand a year. And that, that's what my brother, my older

35:02brother, he's, um, he did history, politics. Anyway, he did it and it was like a thousand a year. And then, so that's more affordable. And then when we got in, it was three, what was it? No, it was 9,000 a year. No, my brother was 3,000 and then we were 9,000 anyway. And it was the first year they changed to 9,000. So it just felt really like, you know, I think it's even more expensive for now for international students as well. Yeah, for international students. Right. More, yeah. Well, it sounds, I mean, just theoretically, I think, yeah, I, I, I, you know, of course our

35:41whole financial system and, you know, and, and division is completely fucked. But considering with that sort of in mind, I think if you have the option to go to a really cool or ambitious or a school, an art school with a great reputation, it, it may very well be worth the money. And I say that thinking about a guest from several years ago, who I remember talking about her experience

36:16choosing and going to CalArts, you know, which is quite a bit more, has been quite a bit more than 9,000 for quite a long time now. So she probably was paying upwards 20 or, or quite a bit, even more thousand a year than that. Um, when she went, which was probably, I don't know, 15 years, 10, 15 years ago, probably 10 years ago, actually. Um, and anyway, long story short, she said, you know, I, you know, I think I really value my time there, you know, I, I got a lot out of it. So, you know, you guys could

36:52have paid less, you could have paid more. Sounds like you got a pretty good deal. Yeah, no, it was amazing. It was amazing. I'm just, I just, I'm very like adamant on, on, um, sure. But yeah, I mean, we were so lucky and we also were lucky that we could get a student loan so we could go, you know, so it was, um, it was, um, it was amazing. We loved it. It was an amazing time and we're so lucky and we wouldn't be where we are today had we not done that, you know? Right. Well, speaking of

Collaborative Art Practice

37:23where you are today, what, what was the genesis or how you sort of how take turns maybe describing how you merged your art making together as a team? Right. Well, uh, it was kind of natural. It started throughout second year, third year. We just, we just spent a lot of time reviewing each other's kind of work and kind of talking about our work, each other's work. And, and then I started taking

37:54pictures of Alex's work and then I started doing metal work. So frames, I, I always kind of, when I was at uni, I always, uh, saw photography as, um, like a sculptural medium as well. So playing with photography and sculptures that I would make in, in what I call non-spaces. So abandoned places and stuff like that. Anyway, but very quickly I wanted to make frames for my images so that then I went to the

38:25metal workshop where Alex was, where I would make my frames. Then we would go back and I don't know, I guess that's how it started. Yeah. And then we basically just moved into the same studio after uni and it just happened, you know, it just felt natural that we would start making work together. Yeah. And do you feel like two heads are better than one? There's definitely some difficulties being two. Yeah. But there's, what I love about it is, is, is the, the nonstop energy, you know, like always someone, and this happens a lot with us,

39:03I think is when I'm feeling a bit down on energy or uninspired, Alex is there bubbling, which she's most often bubbling because that's kind of the way she plays. But so it kind of brings me up and motivates me and I hope to do the same for her. Yeah. We, we have different skill sets, you know, like Theo's just amazing at like

39:26getting an idea and in his mind and like making it, you know, I'm more like just go along with the flow, but he's, he'll sometimes wake up and he literally dreams about things he wants to make and then like makes them, you know, so it's, it's kind of cool. We, we inspire each other and it just feels natural, you know, our art is our life and our life is together and we share everything anyway. So it just feels so natural to, to share our practice. And we're not very like, you know, religious about how that might form, you know, sometimes Theo goes in the dark room,

40:01like he goes in the dark room alone all the time and I draw alone, you know, or, and it's still under both of our, it's in our practice, both, you know, our, our, our making. Yeah. For me as an, as not as a collaborator, at least, you know, nowhere, nowhere collaborating anywhere near your universe of collaboration. It seems like one big advantage would be the clarity that you can bring to the other person's ideas or, you know, or, uh, what, even what they've

40:33made as far as, you know, getting stuck in your own head and, and not having enough perspective on what you're doing on your own. I think that, but there's a flip to that. I think that, um, working together, it's like, sometimes it pushes you to have to explain yourself. And then also someone might look at some, one of us might look at what the other's making and be like, oh, I see this. And then you're like, oh yeah, I didn't even mean that, but I see what you're saying. But sometimes you, you'll come, one of us will come to the other with an idea,

41:06like so excited. And then the other one will be like, uh, no. And that kind of kills you. You know what I mean? Like it's, it's either it can really help you, or sometimes it can just kind of kill your, your, your, your flow, you know? So. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And do you have, do you have to, speaking of explaining yourself, do you ever, how often do you have to explain yourselves as a team? As far as, yeah, all the time. Is that what you're going to say? Yeah. Every time. Every day. Yeah. Oh, okay. Every decision.

41:38What's your, what's your favorite, um, elevator pitch or, or just a catchphrase for what you guys do? Oh, to, you mean how we have to explain to others ourselves, you mean, or? Oh, you, oh, so you are answering, explaining yourselves to each other. Yeah, exactly. I was saying, I, so my question was, how often do you have to explain what the two of you do to others? Right. Like, yeah, we are a collaborative art team, but do you say, you know, we're kind of a hybrid,

42:09you know, photography, sculpture, drawing, et cetera, that, that, that's kind of what I was getting at. Right. Well, maybe, I guess this has evolved and, and now more than ever, I think for me, I, I tend to, this kind of question makes me, I don't know how to explain, but, um, um, for me, life is, uh, you know, without making it too big, like, and this is a reason why I think I moved here. One of the reasons why I wanted to move here is to, to have everything interconnected.

42:44So the garden, the stuff we grow, what we look at, what we, the house we're making, that the decoration choices, the awkward handles on the doors at home, or I don't know, just like everything is, is part of art. Yeah. And I think we've really struggled with that question of the elevator pitch. And for years we were kind of worried about how to explain our practice to other people. But now we just, you know, we live our life and we make art and our life is art and, you know,

43:20working in the garden is our, as much our practice as is sewing, you know, on our table. Um, and so when we, you know, now, when we try to explain our, we don't try to explain ourselves, we just invite people here and we just, um, have conversations like we're having now, you know, and I think you just get a vibe of who we are as, as we get a vibe of who you are, you know, totally. Yeah. You're, you're, yeah, I could, as you were saying that I could easily see

43:50your visitors who we talked about towards the beginning coming and whether or not they get drunk on the champagne tour, you know, they come over to your place, you know, you take them around, you don't even have to say that much. It's the, the work and the garden and the house, right. They probably all speak for themselves in a, in a certain way. Exactly. And not enough for now, you know, sometimes we get very frustrated. Uh, at least I do feels better at, um, at being patient. You know, I, I think our house is not at all where

44:21our house, our, our work, and it's, it's not yet where I want it to be. I want it to be more, more loud and more, you know, that the passion and the love comes through even more intensely than it does now. But I think that, you know, it's, it's already there. And, and I mean, with start, this is this house had nothing. And in a way you're kind of adding to it and making it work. So there is a sense of also, which I like a sense of practicality. Um, you're not only making

44:56things to look at, you're making things to use. And I think that it's kind of, uh, I'm finding more and more than that. I need that, um, in art actually, it's not just, uh, a mirror, which I like as well. Don't get me wrong, but it's just, I like it to have some sort of a sense of purpose. Hmm. Okay. Interesting. If it's, uh, like this is what, if it's a kitchen, think about a bit more

45:28outside the box of what a kitchen is maybe, or like, um, I still be playful with it, but you know, I get excited by these, these, these purpose. And I think, I think you're actually in describing your situation and your, um, your thinking about the place you live, work and so on, you are kind of answering the question of why you chose the place where you moved to. And, but, but the other part of

46:04the story, and we can kind of come back to there, but we should back up. I feel like because one of the the thrusts of what I first learned about both of you is that you in London, you were moving from studio to studio. Do you want to just talk a bit, you know, give me maybe one version that comes to mind right now about what that experience was like. I mean, obviously you were uprooted, you were perpetually uprooted. It sounds like, but talk maybe in a way that, um, speaks more specifically to the

46:40experience you had with moving studios back in London. Well, uh, I guess it's not, it's nothing new. It's in the same way that every city. Again, to hear the full conversation with Alex and Theo, please go to patreon.com slash the conversation pod or the conversation pod.com slash support. And you can join Patreon there. Thank you for listening. And again, ciao for now.

47:10Thank you.