Stop Playing Small: Shifting Mindset, Habits, and Confidence with Johl Dunn

0:00One of the things as photographers we do is like we compare. Oh, they're so good. The comparison's the thief of joy. So when you're comparing all the time, you're never going to level up because you always see yourself as a lot worse than you actually are as well. It's not like your photography skills when you're in business is one of the least important things. It's sort of like, I would say, your mindset, sales and marketing process, then your photography, in that order. Hey, friend. Welcome to the Art and Soul Show.

0:32I'm your host, Lisa DeJaso, a mom, a photographer and entrepreneur. Tune in here for pep talks, conversations and advice on photography, creativity, mindset, business, life and that messy in between. This is the place where you can go when you need a boost of encouragement, a kick in the pants and inspiration to pick up your camera. This is the Art and Soul Show.

0:54Hello, my beautiful friends. Welcome back to the show. Today, I'm super excited to welcome back a guest we had on previously. He is a mindset and business coach, Joel Dunn. And we're here for just a deeper conversation around growth and alignment. So welcome, Joel. Thanks for having me back. I'm so excited to chat. So you've been a photographer for 20 years and now you're working full time as a mindset and business coach. So what led you to that shift? Yeah, it was an organic shift.

1:25If you had have asked me 10 years ago that I, you know, and told me I'd be coaching, I would not have, it wasn't even on the radar. It was just something that organically happened from getting coached myself and seeing, you know, going through a lot of stress and anxiety and ups and downs in business to finally cracking the code, I guess, and having a really successful business, then people just started reaching out like other photographers that I knew and how are you doing this? And I started just organically training and coaching people and I really, really enjoyed it. And then I thought, well, this would be a good side business.

1:56I thought, you know, just do something on the side. And then that side business turned into the full business. And I always follow where my passion goes. And I started resenting the fact that I had to stop coaching and go and do a photo shoot. And that's when I knew it was time to transition fully into the coaching business because it's where my passion was. Yeah. I love it. That's great. I am the same way. I didn't know I was going to be an educator. I just wanted to take awesome photos of my son who is now 16, which is crazy.

2:29So it goes quick. We just land where we land. We land where we're supposed to. So when you're coaching with your clients, what is the first invisible problem you usually uncover when someone comes to you feeling stuck and overwhelmed? It's always their beliefs in general. So it's limits we put on ourselves, usually based on the past or based on something we've gone through or things we've seen or been told. And we're our own biggest barrier.

2:59So generally where I start is, okay, where did those beliefs come from? What are they? And when we bring them into the known and you can be aware of them, then we can shift them. And then we create habits and structures around to release those and move into alignment with where we want to go. Because sort of what we were sort of talking before we jumped on about how most people go to fear or the worst case scenario first. And in business, that's even more prevalent because there's so many unknowns. Like you don't have a set wage like a job.

3:30So you don't have that security. So the fear is higher and it lends ourselves to go there. So we really need habits and structures to move us to where we want to go because wherever our thoughts and patterns are, that's what we get. So if we're not careful, we build into that negativity. That's the results we're going to get. Absolutely. I was just reading something. I can't remember where it was. It was just about the negative bias. And when we're just like focusing so much on the negative, but we're trying to manifest, we just get more of the negative stuff without even realizing we're doing it. Yeah, it's sort of like it's competing forces.

4:03We want one thing, but we're thinking another. So we're blocking it at every turn. When we can get into alignment and start to believe what's possible, that's where you go into a flow state and you get there really quickly. Like you start to just, and manifesting is a word that gets overused, I guess, but manifesting is useless without the action. So you have to put the two together. So I was just talking to a client about this. She said she was very spiritual and, but she sort of told she as I hadn't put those connections before,

4:34the spiritual side of me and how to introduce that into a business and to put them together. Because people think they're very polar opposites, but when you bring them together, they're really, really powerful. I really, I agree. I find even like I, I've done, I would level two Reiki. And so I actually use a lot of Reiki in my newborn sessions and just like, just pure love and peace and light. And like, it is so helpful just with centering and calmness.

5:04And a lot of people don't realize like we are energy-based beings and bringing that into your newborn photography or even how you are with your clients or in a session, it really matters. A hundred percent, because you've got to remember kids particularly are so open and receptive to energy, particularly newborns. So they can feel how you're feeling and your energy is going to dictate how the session goes. And that was sort of something that I did a lot of, for our families and a lot of young kids. And a lot of parents would say, wow, like most of my, you know,

5:35our kids get scared by men with beards or by, you know, bigger presence, but they're very calm around you and it's because that's how I used to approach the shoots is come in very calm, have that energy about it because the kids pick up on it. Like, you know, when you're in a relationship, like my tweets, like your kids pick up if you're, you and your wife having an argument, they know, like, you know, the energy. They know. Oh yeah. They can feel it from downstairs without any words. Yeah. So good. So many photographers really feel like they're doing all the right things,

6:07yet nothing is changing in their businesses. So what do you think is usually happening beneath the surface in those cases? Yeah, it's a good question. I think a lot of time they're staying comfortable. Like they're doing a lot of things that are comfortable. They're going to change their website. They're going to look at social media. They might check out ChatGTP and they might do all these things that are easy, but they're not doing the hard things like going to another business and doing a, seeing if they want to work together, putting promotions out there, calling clients, doing the things that are going to be,

6:39they're going to have a bit of fear around them. They're the things that actually move the needle in a business. So we can trick ourselves into being busy, that we're doing busy work, which isn't doing anything. So we want to look at what the steps and what are the things that are going to move the needle forward in the business and get results and lean into those. I think also, you know, I started my business in the very wild west of Facebook and it used to be like post one time on Facebook or Instagram or send one email and I would be booked.

7:09And the landscape has just changed so much because we're inundated with so much noise and so much sales all the time that we weren't, you know, our attention span is literally like one to two seconds. Yeah. So I just really have to come up with different marketing strategies. So I want to talk a little bit about that too, because I know that you had mentioned about a sales marketing engine and I wanted to talk about how that relates to photography and what that actually looks like in a photography business. Yeah. Well, let's take a portrait business, for example.

7:41When I work with a client, the first thing we work on is them, their energy, their beliefs, their strategies and their habits. Then we go to a sales system. So what I mean by a sales system is, all right, what's the end result we want? Let's say you're a portrait photographer and you want a $3,000 average sale. Now, what's that look like in regards to the price list and the products and the offerings and then the consultation call and how we're talking about price and how we're introducing products and how we're doing all the whole sales process, which is really the client experience. Then once that's set, then we go to a marketing strategy.

8:14Yeah, you're right. Like Facebook, when I started as well, like I remember one of the first promotions when I came up with this concept and working with other businesses, we got 1,200 leads in four days. No money is spent. That will never happen now, right? It's impossible. Oh, believe me, it's gone. The same, I still teach this system to my clients and we had one in the US recently. He got 160 leads in four days. Now that's a good result now, right? Yeah. Which is still amazing.

8:44Yeah. But we have to be more, and what I mean by an engine is we have to have multiple different streams and avenues coming in. We can't rely on one. We have to have a nurturing sequence and also we have to be able to, selling's done over weeks and months now, not just a one-off. So people need to engage with you 7 to 11 times before they'll buy. They need to know, trust, and like you. So we have to, not have to, but it really helps to put your personality

9:15and who you are out there because they're buying from you. A lot of people are scared to be themselves or scared to get in front of camera, particularly women, because we have, we all do. We have a lot of hangups of how we look. Are we too fat? Are we too old? Are we too this? Are we too that? Are we, you know, and so we don't do it. But when you can authentically show up as yourself and speak your truth, you're aligning with your clients and they're going to come to you. They're going to feel it. They're going to go, oh, I really resonate with Lisa in that, you know, I really want to do that now. And that's, it's not just a one-off,

9:47it's a process that we want to set up so it's consistently through the year. I love that. And I think, you know, I have been recording videos and showing up online since 2012 and watching yourself age on camera and gain weight and lose weight and gain weight and lose weight. It is wild. It's a wild ride. And if anything to anyone who wants to maybe start putting themselves out there, like, just do it, just do it. No one has ever actually said anything negative

10:18or nasty to me, really. And if they have, my team blocks it. But the thing is, I don't even know. No, like, that says more about them than you if they do that anyway. But everyone's so wrapped up in themselves, they're not even thinking about you. Yeah. Like, if I look at my first videos, they're horrible. Like, I was terrible. But I remember, it was about 2017 when I started coaching and I remember consciously not putting videos up about meditating, about spirituality, about mindset

10:50because I was worried about what people think. Yeah. So I talked about marketing and sales and business stuff. But then I got to a point where I'm like, that's not what I want to be talking about. So I just started talking about these things and that is when my business took off because it really aligned. And either people thought it was bullshit, woo-woo, or not for me. And other people really aligned with it. Sort of like what you're doing and how you've got the word sold in your business. Like, that's going to resonate with people. And other people are going to go, hmm, not for me. That's exactly what you want.

11:21Right? Like, if you want to learn about ITS sales and stuff, I will have guests that will tell you about that. But I love a conversation about woo-woo. Yeah. That's my heart. But I think now woo-woo is way more accepted. Like, I've listened to a lot of podcasts with like Dyer of a CEO and different ones where high, high net worth successful business nearly to a T, they all talk about meditation and mindfulness now. Yeah. Like, it's not woo-woo.

11:52It's actually, there's so much science behind it and how much it can help you. It's not fringe anymore. No, no. What's interesting is I have a son who's about 16 and he's quite a popular guy with the ladies, but he has a lot of friends that are like girls and they all come over and they call me Mama Lisa and we just have chats. Like, we have so many chats. And one chat, this girl was just talking about how she just is feeling stuck and how she's just like, this is who she is.

12:24And I was like, honey, like, you can change who you are at any point. You can decide today that this is my personnel. This is what I do. And then you start taking the action steps to become that person, right? That's all it is. You make the decision and then you commit to this decision and you keep showing up as that person. And then someday you are that person. Yeah. And I think people get stuck on an identity around, like, I'm just the shy one or I'm that, but it's actually, no. Yeah. You can't miss that. Just because someone told you that once doesn't mean it's true.

12:54Correct. It doesn't mean you have to believe it, right? Like, yeah. And this is where money blocks come from as well. Like people are told certain things and this is a lot of photographers have money blocks and most of them come from childhood, like what they were told or how they grew up. And that's just a belief. It's so ingrained in them. It's hard to shift until they become aware. It's just a belief. Yeah, absolutely. I was actually just having a podcast interview with a photographer from Romania who now lives in Brisbane. And she was telling me that how she had,

13:26like back in Romania, women would basically just go to the factories and that's where they would work. They didn't really have any options. So when she came to Brisbane, when she was asking people for money, back in Romania, it was like thought of as begging. And so she, I was like, oh, girl, there's a money block that you had to get over there. And now she's charging like thousands of dollars for her beautiful newborn photography work. But holy, like those are some huge money blocks that she had to come over. Yeah. Well, good on her. That's huge.

13:57Yeah, right? I was like. But they're so ingrained. Like a lot of stuff we, what we hear as kids, but I think it's from the age of one and eight, officially one and seven, but it's so ingrained in us that we drag it with us when we're adults and don't even realize that it's affecting how we're showing up and what actions we take or don't take. And yeah, money's a big one. Yeah. Or even like our teenage years between like 14 to even like 20, because in our minds and in our bodies, it is the most intense period of pain,

14:27of trauma, of heartache that we ever have. Because in our 20s and 30s, like we kind of are like, it's okay. But we keep that trauma that happened then with us. And so do you have any advice on maybe those that have that trauma, maybe in those early years or mid-age years that of just releasing it and how to let it go, how to let it stop, stopping you from living the life or being the person you want to be? Yeah. I think firstly, when we're dealing with, and trauma can mean so many different things. Oh, so many different things.

14:58It can be anything. Yeah. Trauma for one person is nothing to it. Like it's you personally. Absolutely. Right. So we first identify, you know, what it is that's the block or where it came from. Like you said, the trauma, what it might've been and why we're holding onto it or why we came up with that particular belief around it. Yeah. And, you know, three people can have exactly the same experience and have totally different beliefs around it. Right. Like you might have three siblings that went through exactly the same thing and they all have a different belief around it. Right.

15:29Yeah. So why did you take that particular belief and then how, is that serving you? And generally it's no. Okay. How do we shift it? And that's where we sort of dive in it and shifting. It's not like, oh, it's gone. It's taking layers off things. So through work, us, you know, we change, you know, limiting belief work, I am statements. There's different ways, different modalities, but we're just shifting it slowly. So it doesn't have the hold that it had. And then as we start to move away from it, we become aware of

15:59it was just something we're dragging with us that we can change. And then confidence comes from that as well. Yeah. I love that. So let's talk about habits and routines because they have a bigger impact on success than many people might think. So what advice do you have about getting into those successful habits and daily routines that they might want to add? Yeah. I am obsessed with habits and routines. Yeah. I love it. Habit stacking. Yeah. Because

16:29everything we do is habit. Like if you think about like 90%, I would say, I'm guessing, 90% of the population, the first thing they do when they wake up is the habit of grabbing their phone. Right? If you change one habit, change that because what's happening and I know he says a funny quote, like people grab their phones before they grab their partners in the morning, right? Yeah. Which is a sad reality because we're so addicted to it and we don't want to miss out and it's like when you're waking up, your body's still waking up

17:01and we go straight to a dopamine hit and on emails, Instagram, it's like, so it's draining energy because it's this rush of adrenaline straight away. So I always say to my clients, don't touch your phone for the first hour. Don't have a coffee for the first hour. Those two things are going to make your day way better if you just stopped them. So one of the habits I was going to say make my clients do but I suggest they do is start the day with my, like I've got a journal that I give my clients. It's a really simple journaling, gratitude,

17:31what you want to get done for the day. It's really simple things to wake yourself up the right way and start your day powerfully with a meditation because it's not what we do every now and then that counts in our life. It's what we do consistently. Yeah. So if we consistently do and shift a couple of things like if habit, like the way we eat is a habit, the exercise we do is a habit, the way we dress is a habit, you know, like most people wear the same five or six outfits, cook the same five or six meals, they drive to work the same way

18:02or they walk to work the same way, that we do everything because our minds can't, we want to have as much habit as possible so we don't have to think about everything. So like brushing your teeth is a habit you don't even think about. Unfortunately, driving something we don't really think about either. You just, you know, some 20 minutes. How many years? Yeah. We want to, like I've got the point where the morning ritual for me is just so ingrained. It's just, I don't have to think about it. And then I test and try different habits on.

18:32So I'll do it like a, I've got a conscious commitment sheet that I give my clients. So if anyone wants one, just DM me on Insta and I'll send it to you. And it's like, what's one thing I want to change for 30 days? And you track it and it's on this sheet. And like I started, I've done heaps of them, but one of them I'm still doing is the cold plunge, which I just wanted to do it because I heard the science about it and it sounded really hard too. Like, and I like trying hard things and it was really hard and it still is. That was two and a half years ago, but I kept it because of the feeling and I got after it. It was amazing. But every morning I get in,

19:04it's still as hard as the day one because it sucks. But yeah, it's. Thank you for saying that because I have tried it and I hate it. Hate it. It's a bit harder for women because it's not as effective. It can't be as cold for women. And this is. I've heard that too. Yeah. So you've got to be careful and when you do it, like what cycle you're on. So women, you've got to look into the science a bit more and it's like men, you can have it colder and we're sort of, you women get the short end of the stick on a lot of things, right?

19:35Unfortunately, like we're, so it's a bit easier for men, but with women, if you're going to do it, yeah, get to look at the science first and you can't have it as cold and you've got to be careful when you do it, those sorts of things. Yeah. Yeah. It's hard. It is hard. It is hard. I'm going to circle back because we were talking about habits and how we're kind of just on autopilot. I was listening to, or maybe reading with Joe Dispenza book about how often our thoughts are just a continuous loop of the same thoughts every single day.

20:06It's something like 90%. Yeah. Yeah. That was wild. That's wild. It's true. It's true. So we can't shift unless we shift our habits or thoughts or both. When we do a new habit, we are shifting our thoughts because we're doing something different instead of autopilot. So yeah, I think it's actually 5% that is like original thoughts and 95% are, you know, what we always think. So that's why no one changes. And when I do coaching, we want paradigm shifts, we want big shifts. So that's why we're looking

20:36at habits and mindset and beliefs because that's when you have these big jumps because we're thinking differently. We're showing up differently. When we think differently, we take different actions. So then we get different results. Yeah. A hundred percent. Love Dr. Joe Disfines as well. I know. I've been wanting to go to one of his retreats in like Cancun or something. Yeah, I went to one. I just haven't committed yet. Have you been to one? Yeah, I went to one last year. Was it? I think we talked maybe two or three years ago. So it was between them. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So maybe it was last year

21:07or the year before. It was amazing. I bet. It was full on because you're doing multiple like two hour meditations a day. One of them was four and a half hours. Like it's intense, but it's amazing. Yeah, quite amazing. Yeah. His voice though in the meditations scare me. Like I can't get into a med... Like I just... I jump. I don't like that deep male voice that's like... Like I... Fight or flight. Like I don't like it. Well, he does talk about that and how he shifts his tone and stuff. It's all on purple. I know. I think you'd really enjoy

21:37the five day... I think it's five days we did it, but... Yeah. Yeah, it's quite... Yeah, I think you'd probably like get more in person. Yeah. Yeah. It's so funny. All right. So let's talk about maybe subconscious beliefs that keep photographers playing small. Wow. Where do I start? A lot of the beliefs that we have are unconscious though as well. Like I'm not good enough is just a very prime example of a lot of photographers, a lot of people I work with. I'm not good enough.

22:08I'm not a good enough photographer. I'm not good enough at business. Put whatever after it. That's a really powerful one. You know, there's a lot of beliefs around money. I, you know, my clients won't pay that. I can't charge that. Those sorts of beliefs are really popular, I guess, with business owners as well. But they're probably the big ones but there's other ones around that as well. But like I said, it's funny. Okay, where did that belief come from and why and how do we move it? Yeah. Yeah, it is the key. But I would say the universal ones, I'm not good enough.

22:39I still struggle with that and I think even like because we've got such a big audience and we've got like so many students, I really struggle putting my photography work out there because I feel like I have to be way up here and I can't make a mistake. And I stop myself from sharing things because I'm scared. Yeah, I mean, that's a big bar to set for yourself, right? Yeah. Well, it's really impossible to live up to. Yeah. And they, you know, one of the things is photographers we do

23:10is like we compare. Oh, they're so good. The comparison's the thief of joy. So when you're comparing all the time, you're never going to level up because you always see yourself as a lot worse than you actually are as well. It's not like your photography skills when you're in business is one of the least important things. It's sort of like I would say your mindset, sales and marketing process, then your photography in that order is the key. Yeah, it's so true and it's like it's that spotlight syndrome thinking that every image that I'm going to post everyone's going to see

23:41and they're going to be looking at it with like a micro like looking for those mistakes, right? And no one really is. I'm just comparing like my straight out of camera to other people's like finished images and it's so silly and I know I'm doing it and yet I always just get in my head like I don't think I'm going to post that. Well, I remember when I started doing it was before I was coaching but I was doing some talks and stuff for photographers and I had a what they called a bus tour and they'd get

24:1160 photographers on a bus and we'd all go around to different people's studios to see their studio setup so mine was one of them and I got to the point where I didn't care what people thought about I only cared what my clients thought not other photographers and I got to I had been to that point and I had I don't know if you remember spot colouring back in you know this is like the early 2000s where you Oh yeah yeah selective colour yes selective colour I did that it was a it was a thing then it was cringe afterwards right so I had it'll come back watch

24:41it'll come back I was doing weddings at the time as well and I had this huge 30 by 40 inch portrait of a wedding bridal party with spot colouring of grass and anyway my clients loved it right yeah but all the photographers were like you know I was like oh what are they going to think I don't really care and they're commenting on it and I did my speech in front of them I said like most of you would have commented on that spot colour and everyone started laughing I said I don't care because you're not my clients like I've sold 20 or 30 weddings

25:13based on that photo alone like people come in and love it right because the general public are usually way behind photographers level of what they see and stuff and I say this to my clients it's like your clients are seeing the emotion the connection what they feel in the photo they're not seeing the light the technical aspects the composition they're not really seeing those things so yeah if it's stopping you being you and posting you gotta that's one of the things you just go okay I'm gonna let that go because they're not my client you gotta just do it

25:44what's interesting too is like because I have so many incredible teachers that come for our retreats and everything our online retreats I'm exposed to so many incredible artists but also trends and it's easy to get that like stuck in my brain thinking that oh what I'm doing right now is irrelevant and it's not good enough and it's past and I should be hopping on this trend where everyone's wearing a boho hat and in a field with a dress you know with 35mm camera but that's not me I wanna shoot with a 200

26:15I wanna be way back yelling at you directing you what to do and so it was funny because I just stopped posting some of that because I'm like oh my style's not cool anymore but you know what I never stopped booking anybody but it's when you're enjoying what you're doing and you're being you know true to you that's when you really have fun with it and people gel with it and you'll be more booked than trying to follow a trend that you don't really jam with no yeah and that's the thing with trends

26:46if you keep changing I think with the trend then you never really have a solid foundation correct yeah and I just think just do you like that's full stop yeah it took me about 15 years to learn that one like I'm constantly learning stuff about and I've still got blocks I've still got all these things but I'm always curious like I think one of the best things you can be as a just a person but as a business owner be once constantly curious ask questions about yourself about others

27:17and where you wanna go yeah that's when be successful I love that and humility humility is a huge thing in this industry too because you see a lot of stars rise and you see a lot of stars fall just be yourself just be human and kind yeah I talk to my clients particularly my clients and my groups about failures I've had or things I'm not doing well or battles I've had and I've talked online with certain things like I've had mental health struggles through my business career as well and I think

27:48the reason I talk about those things is because at one point particularly when I started coaching I shouldn't have these struggles because I'm a business coach I'm a mindset coach I shouldn't have these but when I broke it down I was like well I can't help people if I'm holding back and pretending to be perfect when actually I'm human as well and things do affect me and then when I started talking about them people related to it a bit more I think yeah yeah I think that's important it's funny I just posted a Instagram reel with a hack

28:18that I just discovered a couple days ago I've been a studio lighting photographer for 15 years and I just learned about like if you take the diffuser and the umbrella and then you just open it all together you don't have to fart around with the diffuser anymore