TN:178 Holly Humberstone & Rob Milton

Welcome and introductions

0:00This episode is brought to you by ChatGPT. Hey, it's Bill Simmons from the Bill Simmons Podcast. Have you guys heard about ChatGPT work? It's the new way to use ChatGPT for bigger multi-step projects. And when you need more than just answers, give ChatGPT work access to your apps and files, and it can create real work documents like spreadsheets, slides, and structured reports. Get started at ChatGPT.com by selecting work mode available on Plus and Pro Plans.

0:30Hello, and welcome to Tape Notes, the podcast that looks behind the scenes at the magic of recording and producing music. Every episode, we'll be reuniting an artist and producer and talking through some of the highlights from their collaboration in the studio. So join us as we lift the lid on the creative process and the inner workings of music production to see what lies beneath.

1:00This episode is brought to you by ChatGPT. Hey, it's Bill Simmons from the Bill Simmons Podcast. Have you guys heard about ChatGPT work? It's the new way to use ChatGPT for bigger multi-step projects. And when you need more than just answers, give ChatGPT work access to your apps and files, and it can create real work documents like spreadsheets, slides, and structured reports. Get started at ChatGPT.com by selecting work mode available on Plus and Pro Plans.

1:32Holly Humberton is a singer-songwriter from Grantham in England. Having written and performed music from a young age, Holly's early work was picked up by BBC Introducing. Her singles, including Deep End, released in January 2020, received extensive radio play, and she amassed a large and devoted fan base during the pandemic when the emotional honesty in her music resonated with many. Her debut EP, Falling Asleep at the Wheel, released in 2020, marked her breakthrough, quickly earning critical acclaim and launching her onto the world stage. The release led to a Brit Rising Star win and two

2:05Ivor Novello nominations, and saw Holly named runner-up in the BBC Sound of 2021. Holly's debut album, Paint My Bedroom Black, released in October 2023, entered the UK Top 5, and was voted one of Rolling Stone's Albums of the Year. As well as several high-profile collaborations with artists including Matty Healy, Sam Fender, and Bombay Bicycle Club, Holly has since toured extensively, supporting artists including Taylor Swift, Olivia Rodrigo, and Luis Capaldi, as well as headlining tours of her own.

2:36Her second studio album, Cruel World, arrived in April 2026, once again working with longtime collaborator, producer Rob Milton. Rob Milton is a musician, songwriter, and producer from Nottingham. Rob first ventured into music as a teenager, forming the band Dog Is Dead with School Friends in 2008. After early EP releases and a growing reputation for their live shows, the band broke through in 2011 when Glockenspiel's song featured in the hit TV series Skins. They went on to sign with Island Records

3:07and released two albums before winding down in 2016, after which Rob shifted his focus to production. Working with a number of artists in the Nottingham music scene, Rob quickly became a key figure on the production side of music. He began working with Hard Life, formerly Easy Life, producing all of their music, and since hearing Holly on a local radio station, has become a close collaborator, working across almost her entire back catalogue. Rob has also shared his production and songwriting talents with artists including The 1975, Maisie Peters, CMAT, and Rachel Chinneriri. Today, I join Holly and

3:43Rob at Baltic Studios, and what better way to start than by hearing something from Cruel World. This is Die Happy. You said in the past life we were spiders Or something of your gauze and grandiose You asked if you could hold my hand forever and ever You asked me if I still believe in ghosts

4:16Well, there's something about you So strange and beautiful The language that you talk There's something about you It is Die Happy by Holly Humberstone from the Cruel World album, and I'm very pleased to say that sat with me here at Baltic Studio 2 is Holly Humberstone. Hello, Holly.

4:48Hi. Hi, John. And alongside you is Rob Milton, who is a veteran of the show. You've been on a few times now, Rob. It's my third time. Yes. Thank you for continuing to invite me on. It's a pleasure, Rob. Thanks for coming on and great to have you here, Holly.

Making a second record

5:03Thank you for having us. So, Die Happy was the first taste of the new album, Cruel World. It's out now. We're going to look at three songs, and it's the second album from you, Holly, and second album you've worked on together. So, what did you think about making another record together? Was there something you were going to do differently this time around? I mean, I feel like it's a no-brainer. We've been working together for a really long time, since I think I was 17, maybe, when we first had our first session.

5:33And, I mean, yeah, I guess this past year and a half has been the first extended period of time where I've just had an album to write and kind of just that to focus on, rather than kind of being swept up on tour. You know, I feel like since I came out of lockdown, it's just been like this constant, amazing, really fun, but overwhelming kind of touring just cycle. So, yeah, it's been like a really, really nice, nice year and a half, and we've had like time, and people have kind of left us alone to kind of just make the album that we want to make.

6:08And I feel like I'm in a different headspace than I have been before, and I've done this once before, and I kind of know the rules and know how it all works. And, yeah, I just feel like I'm in a place where I kind of can take agency a little bit, and I feel like you can hear this kind of newfound kind of freedom and confidence in this album that maybe you haven't really heard too much before from, from like, yeah, from us. But, yeah, it's been really, really fun. I feel like it's been the best, the best one. I think you can hear how much, how much fun has gone into making it.

6:42And, yeah, it's time to share it, which is kind of terrifying. But, yeah, really fun. I'm really excited. I really back it and love everything that we've made. So, proud of us. It's been the first time that we've, like, had to stop and think about making something. Before we'd make an EP, and then we'd be already writing the second one before we'd even thought about it. And the first album, there's, like, an old saying where you just have your whole life to write a first album, and then, like, a couple of weeks to write an album too.

7:14We've had the other way out. We've had plenty of time to write it, but there was, like, there was definitely a point where we were sort of, like, oh, we could do a thing here. Like, what should we do specifically? We can do anything, like, kind of scarily be like, we can do anything. So, how do we narrow that down to something? Yeah. Because before it's just been, like, what's the next Holly Humberstone song that we make? And now it's like, okay, you've got to sort of semi-reinvent yourself here. Yeah. What do we want to do? Yeah. I also feel like being in your 20s or 30s is, like, I feel like you're constantly trying to kind of reinvent yourself

7:51and figure out who you are, and it's just, like, a decade-long identity crisis. So, I feel like naturally it feels different from the last one, because I think quite a lot of those songs from Paint My Bedroom Black were written, like, four or five years ago now. So, like, I think that it's, like, it's been, like, a natural transition, and, yeah, I'm loving it. I'm loving the new stuff.

Writing To Love Somebody

8:12Yeah.

Writing To Love Somebody

8:13Excellent. Well, we're going to hear how you created these new songs, and the first one we're going to look at is To Love Somebody. So, maybe, Rob, you could play us a blast to the master, and then we'll find out how you wrote it. Yeah, of course. So, you're crashing to the wall

8:45You're cleaning up the broken glass Thinking, what the hell is that? Yeah In the movie of your life You're the first to die And the critics call it trash Too bad They tell you that you feel too much Euphoria right down to the crush It all breaks down, it always does It all works out, it always does And the shit they say in the songs you love The greatest hits and the deepest cuts It all breaks down, it always does

9:17It all works out, it always does To love somebody To love somebody To love somebody To love somebody by Holly Humberstone From the Cruel World album So, tell us about it You know, what happened? How did this come about? What happened? I mean, I feel like we came to the studio with a sentiment I feel like usually we don't come with too much other than ourselves And like some notes And yeah, at the time

9:49My sister, who I live with And we're extremely close Was going through a very brutal breakup And it was because we live together We spend pretty much all hours of the day together Apart from when I'm at the studio with Rob We're attached to the hip And I felt like I was kind of going through this breakup Alongside her Because I just feel everything that my sisters feel, I think And yeah, I think we just wanted to write her a song Just telling her how great she was

10:20And that, you know, like the grief that you feel now Is just a measure of the love that you felt And some people aren't lucky enough to ever experience That intensity of love And I think it's a thing that's so hard to see For yourself when you're in the depths of like a breakup, you know So I just, yeah, I wanted to write her something that felt uplifting And affirming that this is just kind of part of the journey And life is for living And the reason that you're feeling everything Is because you're a human being, you know

10:53And that should be kind of celebrated as well And yeah, we kind of went from there We had a sort of set of rules That we'd been establishing Whilst making the first tracks of this record And like, number one was like, no moaning We'd done that to death Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah And we were like, at a point of Both of us were in like a sort of point of our lives Where we were actually like, quite happy Which can be quite scary

11:23When you've got to write some songs When you're a songwriter It can be terrifying But it's just like, we wanted to figure out how to write from a point of view Of, we wanted to make joyous songs That were still actually interesting And that was the kind of challenge that we put ourselves through Yeah I remember it being like a spring day Like, really nice weather And we just brought in our friend John Green to write with Who is himself a ray of light

11:54A king And an absolute king And we were having fun Like, we were listening to music We were listening to ABBA We were listening to Paul Simon Yeah And we were like, what's our sort of take on this sort of stuff And John just hopped on the piano And just started shredding And before you know it, we're away Yeah I have a crazy voice note of just how this song was born I must have been recording, luckily When, at the moment of conception Which is quite amazing

12:25But yeah, I think we had this, like, drum loop, I think Already And then John was just bashing about on the piano And had this, like Had that melody The post-chorus melody Kind of some semblance of that On the piano And we just And you have your phone with you Oh, I do I've been sitting on it And yeah, I've just got this crazy voice note And, like, we just had this conversation Obviously, I think it's really important At the start of a session To just talk for ages About what kind of thing You're going to land on, hopefully

12:57And then you can just hear Rob going Love somebody Love somebody Just out of the darkness Let me find it It's really funny I haven't heard this You haven't heard this Okay, this could be incriminating Yeah, terrible Wait, I don't know if it's at the right spot either Let me try and find it Right We had this drum situation And then I'm sure I just Okay

13:28I'm doing something weird and random And then Rob comes out There's something good And we all just jump on it

14:01Yeah Because it's amazing I want you to picture the scene I'm holding a cowbell Yeah Sort of whacking a cowbell I got the big box of percussion out Taking all your frustration out on this poor little Just whacking this cowbell Just shouting stuff I remember sort of I remember sort of just shouting like To love somebody Yeah To hate somebody Just like any emotion that came out Yeah Just all sort of led from sort of John just like hitting this groove on the piano

14:32And then this little drum loop that I put on And so it was just like a lot of cowbell and shouting Yeah Yeah And also just having fun If I continued playing that voice note It would expose us as freaks Because Yeah You can just hear us all going At least you got to love somebody To love somebody To hate somebody And like yeah I think also it was partly a bit of a joke Like I feel like when stuff sounds Like it crosses that line Of like Like there's a very fine line

15:04Between something that is like The worst Most ridiculous thing you've ever heard And the most cheesy thing you've ever heard And like something that's actually really amazing And I feel like we're constantly Walking that line A lot of the best ones that we write start out as Quite funny Yeah And I feel like the best sad songs Are a little bit funny as well Yeah Do you know what I mean? So if we're having like a laugh I feel like we're sort of hitting on something

15:35Yeah You know what I mean? Yeah Yeah I think that's really interesting Because there are quite a few different things going on There was intention Yeah So you decided that you were going to try and be positive And create something with a positive vibe and meaning And then kind of picking up and instantly It was so great hearing that voice note Because you all three just get straight in there And join in and latch onto the phrase And kind of riff and extemporise And then suddenly you probably have a moment afterwards Where you start thinking Oh there's something really strong

16:06Yeah And we're all like kind of We know that that's the sentiment And it's to love somebody To hurt somebody we had for ages Just those two And then it made sense to go To lose somebody And then at some point Like one of us was like You're only human honey You said that Because we created a problem for ourselves Because we had so little But we all just knew it was something magical Yeah So it was almost like We need to like come up with a solution quickly

16:36Like what's the right answer to finish off the puzzle? Because it's definitely great Even though we had like nothing to really go on Yeah But the race was to find something good Before we got bored of it Yeah That made sense I remember just being like How do we like make the sentence make sense? You know like To love somebody is to hurt somebody Is to lose somebody Is to know you're only human honey Like I remember this It seems so obvious what it is now Because it's a song But like It took us forever

17:06To work out like How to say that really simple message You know in like a way that makes grammatical sense And like is easily digestible as a chorus Do you know what I mean? Yeah Did you manage to do that that day? Or was this I think we did yeah We were just excited And we just went for it And then as soon as we had that bit Holly came up with Is to know you're only human honey And it was like Oh okay So it's like You love someone And then you lose someone It's the cycle But if you've done that

17:37That means that you're just a regular human being Because we literally all go through it And I was like That's exactly what It's like yes That's what I meant Yeah And then I feel like Yeah And then once we had that chorus Like we were like Well let's just tell the story And have fun And like the sentiments there The hard bit is done really And now we can just have fun I put a ban on production After that bit And we went outside And had And just brought an acoustic guitar out I don't know if you remember this I can't remember that And we were just like We were like Right let's write the verse

18:09Like acoustic Al fresco Just like Sat in Outside the Sort of industrial estate In Walthamstow Just like I remember people kept interrupting From like The pirate radio station Around the corner Or like The sort of builders Down the road And we were just like Yeah one minute I'm just We're onto something here Yeah And what was Why would you do that When you could do it inside It was a nice day And like Do you know what I mean There aren't that many sunny days In Walthamstow I feel like You'll take them

18:40When you can get them And it feels like a sunny song Yeah Yeah I think scenery I feel like A lot of the songs That we've written together Are very much like This is where we are Physically Like I feel like I'm Very physically affected By my surroundings So And I feel like you are I feel like if you're A sensitive person Like That's how it is And I feel like A change of scenery Literally does wonders For the brain Yeah Just a refresh And I think Limitations are

19:10Just so important And I know that If you would have Left me in The studio I'd be like Trying to Compress the kick drum Or something And we'd lose The thing That was like The spark that was there So we'd go outside With an acoustic guitar And you know We might look like Sort of Glastonbury weirdos Or whatever But it just meant There was a ban On any Anything Like any little Temptations Or whatever So what came out Of that

19:40Did you record that On your phone as well Or I wanted to get John's piano Playing down Because Whatever You know what I mean Like that was the Genesis And it's like That's fine But you just can't Start like Compressing kick drums Or anything Or doing You know what I mean I remember this melody

20:13Which happens quite a lot Like I was trying to sing Vocals over this And like Trying to make up words That fit with that Like And Rob was like You're overcomplicating it We just need a Na na na Just give the people What they want Yeah I don't know Yeah There's something Just so primitive And great about I just think about Like There's a summer's day And it's difficult Not to think about Festivals and stuff as well And I'm just like I just want to be there

20:44I just want to be there With a beer With my friends Just shouting Half cut Do you know what I mean I don't want to Have to have read The lyric book Yeah Yeah To know what We're on about Totally And then I had that And I had I've been rinsing This guy Florian Guelo I've probably Absolutely butchered His name But he makes these Amazing disco beats And I just had that Looping Forever And I had John You know Make sure that we got John down

21:14And then I was like Okay right Words Let's make sure We do lyrics Like let's eat our peas And then we can have Our dessert And then we can have fun Yeah And dress it all up Exactly Yeah I think both of us Have the same Thoughts towards Like the song is The core of everything And like The production is Like obviously No disrespect bro Love what you do But I feel like at the core Of everything Like you need to be able To strip all the production away And have like a really Strong song that can stand

21:45On its own Without all of that I think we both feel Feel that very strongly So I think Our main priority Is to like Get the best The best song Before we go in On the production And that's just the fun bit Yeah Yeah But then As soon as we got We get like A certain way Through the lyrics I'm like right Okay let's go Yeah Yeah And then when we're Allowed to Yeah We're going We're going in I've got All of us playing Synthesizers You know The actual session

22:16Ended up Quite ridiculous There's like Sort of ten pianos On top of each other Doing different things There's like Twenty Junos Playing different parts There's like A hundred backing What are the Key ingredients

Building the production layers

22:29That we should hear Yeah let me show you Some of my faves So We've got The bass was really important So I'll get that running Which is really fun And by the way I mean After going outside And playing the guitar In the sunshine Did you Come up with some verses Was that a productive Session So you did get some Lyrics down for that And were able to come back

22:59And put them into this You must have been I actually remember Writing the verse now Outside Yeah I love the verses Of this I feel like Would you bring a pen And paper for that No no I feel like we're Digital aren't we I'd love to be Yeah I'd love to say that Things change too quickly For me to Do that in my Handwriting situation But if You didn't have your Phone Holly I mean how You just got to Keep singing it To yourself To It would go out It would go in One ear and out The other It would be lost Forever It's happened so many Times So unfortunately

23:30I need the phone I wish I could say That it was all Written on a typewriter But I'm thinking That you didn't have Your phone When you went out Oh yeah No you're right there So what did you do You caught me in a Quite often I'm Taking notes on people's On what other people Are doing And like in conversation As well Which sounds a bit like I'm sort of stalking people But do you know What I mean Like We've all got our phones We're all Sometimes people Are like trying to Trying really hard To write the lyric But then they Sort of accidentally Say the lyrics

24:01In the conversation In between Trying to write it Because it's like You're thinking too hard And like instinctually That's what you want to say So I'm just picking up On what you and John Are saying And then I'm trying To fill in the blanks Yeah Yeah But yeah I was trying to do A little Sort of summary Of what everyone Was on about Yeah yeah yeah That's so fun So what should we hear From this session Yeah well You should definitely hear The sort of Wall of June There's a couple Going there Which is so

24:34I just find this stuff So fun It's my favourite sound I mean you had John's piano first That was the first thing I think Yeah So I've got That original drum beat With that And then I've got Bass coming in After this as well Let me skip forward Have you got your The little like Yes That's one of my favourite bits It's one of my Faves as well

25:05It's like The sort of Radio Gaga Second verse Where are we More synthesizers And is this Just all you Rob Or This is Who's playing what This is A mixture Of I'm playing The bass here Holly's playing Some synthesizer John's playing

25:37Some other stuff And then later Down the line Seth Who's Holly's MD And Bassist Is like Playing some as well I also feel like I have had So much fun On tour With my band That The reason That this New music Sounds kind of More bandy Is because I'm writing With like That kind of Context in mind Of just wanting To like Sing songs On stage With my band

26:07That I love Yeah So I feel like It kind of Has that like Stacked Backing vocal Thing That feels Like a gang You know Like Fleetwood Mac Classic thing Everybody loves About them Let me show you Something else I'll show you All the BVs Because I think That's like The layers Of BVs I think Really make this It all breaks down It always does It all works It always does And the shit they say In the songs you love The greatest hits

26:38And is that You Holly Layering Yeah so it's Multiple Hollies We're hearing Multiple Hollies And multiple Rob's I think Multiple Seth's Multiple Lauren's My drummer Came in to do some I can't remember If John did any vocals He must have done something Just a bunch A bunch of us Just went crazy on it Because there's this nice Aspect to it Where at times It seems like A Greek chorus

27:08Kind of there You know You make a little Statement Holly And then they Kind of repeat it But they're kind of Echoing your Thought process And saying Yeah that's right Yeah Like a call and response Type thing Yeah That's what we were Going for There was some Thing that I added To the intro That I thought Was kind of fun And that was using These midi cellos To have like Some kind of weird Like regal feel To like the intro And I used this Plugin quite a lot

27:39Called Rota Solo cello And it's really fun Because it's sort of You can press Like one note And it'll do some Like Auto stuff So it'll just do This kind of Arpeggiate I think So I did all that Without me really Doing anything I just pressed A key And I was like That's ideal And so I wanted to add To that With some real strings And basically

28:09Do the thing That took me One second From one key In the most Complicated way Possible as well So I sort of found I think it was On a tape notes That I saw Jack Antonov Was talking about Using Bobby Hawk As a strings player And I was like Where have I heard That name before And it turns out That he did some stuff With Jack For the 1975 That I've worked on So I just reached out And I was like Hey You've done some stuff That I've worked on Like I'm a big fan Do you want to play Some strings

28:40On a Holly Holmstone Song And I sent him The song And he was like Yeah sure And in like 20 minutes Sent back Like the whole Like a whole bunch Of like You know Like 14 takes I think And I was like Oh thanks So he just kind of Like He did his own Version of All this kind of Scratchy Viola kind of parts And I think another

29:13Reference was Like Arcade Fire As well For this one Which really gives Gives these cellos Yes Yeah totally Anything to like We basically We've We've made a Conscious decision To like We've ditched The like De-tuned Rubber string Guitar And we've got Like the Percussion box Out And the Congas And like The sort of Chirpy strings And we're like We're doing Something different Like we can't Make the same Record again Yeah So It's been fun

29:44That's been the Exploration you know Yeah Yeah And do you mix And process As you go Rob Yeah Kind of Like With these That I'm trying To Do as little As possible To make them Just Fit nicely So I'm just I'm really lightly Compressing That plug-ins Disabled And I didn't Notice Do you know What I mean Like just Lightly Compressing I don't like to Use too many Plugins On stuff Too early on Anyway But around

30:18But around Verse 2 These strings Get They get Really like Disgusting Which I I really like And had you Given any Particular Instruction With regard To how The strings Were meant To sound Yes I mean First of all I was telling I said to Bobby sent Through strings

30:48Before I really Had a lot To say But I was like I like this Sort of Percussive Element And I wanted To hear The string Noise And like It just Didn't It didn't Need to be Pristine Like we Weren't Looking for Sort of Hans Zimmer It needs to Sound like A chaotic Orchestra Vibe Yeah And with Nina When she Came in I was like I need Attention and Release And I Like I Feel like Just as we're Approaching the Chorus as well Like I really Want to

31:19Feel You know The lyric There You know You wear His t-shirt Oh yeah You hate his guts You read the Handbook You take the Drugs You said From here on It's up Us It always Was It always Was Yeah That sort Of like End of Your Tether Unhinged Moment Exactly So that Was the Sort of The brief And The guys Nailed It To love Somebody To hurt Somebody To lose Somebody Is to Know You're Only Human

31:50Honey Because That Is like Then it's Kind of Like Meat and Potatoes It's Just It's a Piano And a Guitar Like Nicely But Before That There's A time Where It's Slightly Like a Horror Movie Do you know What I mean And that's Like the Kind of Extreme Tension And release That I Wanted Because I Wanted To be A bit Ridiculous Because Because I That's Where The fun Is Can we Hear That Lyric That You Gave Us Holly With The Music Yeah Of course And you And you Feel A little Better This Blue And Green Ball Keeps Spinning

32:21To The Beat You Gotta Try And Move Your Feet Gotta Be Boxing Clever They Tell you That You Feel Too Much You Bet It All On It All It All Breaks Down It Always Does It All Works Out It Always And You Wear His T-shirt You Hate His Guts You Read The Hand You Take The Drugs You Said From Here On Out It Says To Love Somebody To Hurt Somebody To Lose Somebody Is

32:52To Know You're Only Human Honey Love Somebody So it's interesting isn't it because in some ways the idea was keep it simple keep it straightforward we're going after the song and the lyric and the meaning and the meaning and the intent and you do all of that and yet at the same time there's still Some other stuff that you've added to help some other dimension emerge as well which is quite interesting I think it's once you've caught the fish once you've got the song it's like okay well now it's playtime like let's try everything

33:27Yeah And like because I do I just believe that the songwriting process should be like I think all the best songs that we write are quickly written and instinctual And production's a different headspace because I can spend you know hours on that and that's fine but we're never gonna be able to step in on production and save the song before the song's written Yeah yeah yeah yeah you have to catch the feels for the song and just kind of go with it I feel like songwriting is kind of a very chaotic thing I feel like there's no real formula to it you know like

34:01It's magic I wish there was yeah it's magic and like just pure chaos like everything else I feel like I'm also not somebody who can write songs all the time and I feel like quite a lot of the time when when we write we just kind of we go to the pub and we're like we're done with this Like if we don't get something quickly it's like which is most days but like when you have you know when you're onto something that you really feel and that you like really love then you've got to kind of jump on that and get the song first you know and then you can just have fun and throw loads of stuff at it

34:35Yeah it just sounds like that is going to connect with people so well you know that that chorus and what you're telling people know that the story within those lines is so strong and people will understand and connect so have you been able to test that out yet Yeah a little bit I've done a few shows so far for this like for this album but not too many I have some festivals this summer and I feel like a lot of the songs on this album were kind of written for festivals like just with that context in mind so I'm really really really excited for that

35:11um yeah Rob we're gonna have to get get you out you're gonna have to come up and I'll happily play the kettlebell Oh yeah please Yeah I'm really excited but it's been going down really well I think it's really connected with people because you know it's such a universal thing that I feel like everybody everybody has felt or like you know needs to hear this okay to just feel everything and that's just makes you human and yeah yeah we're all in we're kind of all in this weird thing together

35:42I know it's kind of out of my jurisdiction but it almost sounds like a really great last song to play our show you know what I mean yeah just in a sort of like I can imagine people sort of nine houring yeah they're like sufficiently drunk by that point where they're just gonna be like it always does exactly yeah it really does have that feel though I think I know I can hear crowds shouting that back to you yeah this is what we were talking about when we were writing it we were like this is gonna be amazing live yeah is there anything else we should hear from it or maybe we should just have a blast of it all together from the end

36:15yeah I was gonna just show I've got the percussion soloed here I feel like it's maybe not as interesting as I thought there's the uh I'll show you the radio gaga's from oh this is my favorite bit oh there's a rogue cello I don't know why the cellos are that was actually John on the the synth first of all I can't claim credit but

36:49I think that just that was like a big move when he made it I was like respect go respect that I see I see I see I see your game and I like it you took a right hook to the jaw so you go and brush your teeth a little powder on your cheeks and you feel a little better this blue and green ball keep spinning to the beat you gotta try and move your feet you gotta be boxing club I'll tell you

37:20and claps as well shameless yeah shameless John but um they cannot be denied are they great yeah they work really well totally and do you know like Holly doing this kind of like fun thing it's like it always sounds like Holly and it's just like it just makes it's it's already a twist on on a classic when when Holly starts singing on something so so you know what I mean like I'm just my job is just to sort of provoke like maybe you could do that and then she just brings the magic really so

37:52not at all not at all it's a collective effort I feel like my job would be so boring if I didn't get to like collaborate with my friends you know I feel like the music would be very very different so yeah I mean it's just so fun getting to hang out with your friends all day and like just have fun and make songs like it really doesn't doesn't get better so I feel like there's no excuse but to like make happy songs at this point you know what I mean and be joyful because we're lucky to get to do this as a job you know and might as well have fun with it you know

38:24yeah yeah it's a great place and great position to be in yeah it is yeah fantastic um however it is a cruel world it is and that's the next song we're going to look at we'll take a quick break and we'll be back with cruel world you know that moment where you thought everything was silent and then in the mix you hear hiss hum distant voices electrical buzz a constant low-level background wash ah oh no thankfully tape it's new denoiser handles it for instant studio quality sound just drop it on any

39:01mic to track and it lowers or if needed completely removes any background noise to scratch the surface it analyzes audio in small slices creates checkpoints every six seconds and instantly re-adopts save settings as you move through your track so it adapts seamlessly to changing noise it was trained on years of real world recordings with a simple brief work on any source not just voices and don't introduce audible artifacts so whether it's instruments full band sessions podcasts live recordings

39:32or long takes with evolving noise the tape it denoiser can handle it all to find out more and to get a special launch offer of 50 off head to tape dot it forward slash denoiser and hear the difference for yourself that's better

39:50this episode is brought to you by chat gpt hey it's bill simmons from the bill simmons podcast have you guys heard about chat gpt work it's the new way to use chat gpt for bigger multi-step projects and when you need more than just answers give chat gpt work access to your apps and files and it can create real work documents like spreadsheets slides and structured reports get started at chat gpt.com by selecting work mode available on plus and pro plans

Patreon questions and instruments

40:20the next one we're going to look at from a cruel world by holly humberstone is cruel world but before we do that we ask our patreon subscribers to come up with questions if they have any and we've got a couple that we'd like to ask you now so one is from robbie who says rob plays so many instruments on holly's records guitar synth bass percussion but holly also plays piano guitar vibraphone tambourine when you are both in the room and you can both play the part how do you decide whose hands end up on the final recording and has that changed over the years oh i don't know i feel like neither

40:54of us are like precious about playing on the record do you know what i mean it's just like who's better at playing this part i feel like generally if it's guitars like rob is so much of a better guitarist than i am and if it's since he likes to let me have my fun on the synths and go a bit crazy but what do you think it's like who's best qualified at the time it's like we're not like neither of us is like virtuosic on the piano or anything so it's usually like have you got have you got the hang of it yeah that's like okay then you do it yeah yeah yeah yeah we figure it out we fake it till we make it i feel

41:24like on the piano yeah but when we've got john it's a different story but when it's just us yeah is is john piano first oh yeah he's great he's a serious pianist yeah which is neither of us are so yeah we're just hopping about on instruments and like like a lot of the records is like especially with the first album it would just be like what's down and recorded for the demo is probably it so whoever was playing it when they were writing it probably is on it i think yeah but yeah it it changes i feel like none of us are none of us are precious yeah yeah and

41:58that results from the communication and the friendship and feeling comfortable with each other yeah totally brilliant lovely fist bump there yeah yeah and william has been in touch he says holly i really love how your productions are embedded with rich sonic textures i would love to learn if there are either long-term technical and or creative inspirations behind these choices oh oh this is an interesting one i mean let's think i mean this is also a rob question as well because

42:29rob's more of the prod guy um but yeah there's lots of long-term kind of inspirations behind the music i feel like we have a couple i mean i was raised on like amazing amazing music i feel like i i love 80s music and stuff that's synth heavy obviously like i said i feel like we're always referencing like fleetwood mac abba was a big one for this album that we've referenced what do you think rob have you got yeah can you repeat the second part of the question yeah um are there either

43:02long-term technical or creative inspirations behind the choices no yeah um one i think is like what's important is like when we've we've been working together like such a long time so we need to find like fresh inspiration like from different places we need to be like coming out from different angles so that we don't just like do the same thing yeah and sit and just mess around or go to the pub yeah

43:32so we like it's important to keep it fresh but there's always a through line because of like our sort of up creative upbringings or whatever but it's like important to just like keep finding a fresh angle whether that's like lyrically or like sonically or whatever so and that's like daily as well do you know what i mean like if we've been playing the piano too much it gets boring i've been playing that sense too much so it's like how do you like keep it fresh yeah because like i'm not going to impress you with like i've got to work harder to impress you because you've seen all my tricks yeah yeah

44:06i've heard your melodies yeah yeah i've done them too many times yeah that's a tough tough question yeah i don't know we also most of the time again we're just sort of messing about yeah i'll be honest yeah we're just having fun with it and messing about and i feel like music isn't serious like do you know what i mean like it is it's music it's supposed to be fun and it's not supposed to be like i mean i appreciate like technically intricate music but also personally i'm just here to have have fun here for a good time here for a good time not a long time and make what sounds good

44:42do you know what i mean and go follow that rather than thinking about it like the technicality is too much i feel like you've just kind of got to go with what feels good yeah i appreciate the perceived uh the perceived depth of all yeah but then you know yeah question sorry to let anyone down

45:01i guess and that's it ties in with paul mccartney's mantra which is you play music you know the key word being play you know you have fun and you play around that's good i like that cruel world is the next

Writing Cruel World

45:13song we're going to look at and maybe we can have a blast for the master let's do that i need to hear you need your baby back

45:33i play it cool i miss your kisses on a feedback

45:41and now the lights are getting low miracles and pheromones i can be a social head grenade

45:49and everybody's getting close taking off each other's clothes it's no wonder where you are tonight it's a cruel world without you baby

46:05it's a cruel world

46:09sugar don't you be running away for long please let's get your movie and get caught in the rain wherever you are is my favorite place it's a cruel world without you baby

46:29just a little taste of cruel world by holly humberstone um and i can hear the fleet with mac that you've been referencing in our conversation oh definitely the start of that anyway yeah totally yeah i'm glad you heard that yeah well you know can't go wrong literally literally no i love that so tell us about cruel world how did this come about i mean it's it's as random as as the the last composition we looked at um we were hanging out with our long-term collaborator ben leftwich and i don't think there was any particular conversation of any depth about

47:01lyricism or like sometimes like holly and i like to have a title first and we like to be like really conceptually quite tight about like what we want to talk about this case was just just not not the one we were listening to a lot of fleet of mac i was had tango in the night on quite a lot and seven wonders that i was like some of the percussive elements are like super fun um why are we not doing that kind of did you know why are we not using like congas and why are we not doing that thing so i just had a little little conga loop on the go which was this guy

47:32is that one you recorded yourself or was it taken no it's from uh splice that was the first word i was going to use and time stretch i've got no shame in that but it's actually like not that interesting without some of the some of the plugins on here i think i think one of the main elements that helped the groove was this ams like a proper like 80s reverb and then you're already in a good mood at

48:06least do you know what i mean like there's not a lot to go on but yeah but you can't be too sad and then i had another florian gueo loop on which i found which was actually really slow so i sped this up to a thousand times faster and i've got the equivalent of what we've done on the latest drums here so um that was basically going through yeah and then we had those congas on the go

48:42and then one other element to kind of spark some kind of um some kind of inspiration was this i have this fun toy called the organelle which is by critter and guitari which is like this super fun little box that is way above my pay grade in terms of what it does it can do all kinds of cool stuff but there's basically like one holly humberstone sound that that i could make it do and it's like this kind of like rp thing we must have used that on like loads of stuff right we we've used version

49:23yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah pretty much but um i managed to make it do like one slightly different thing that it doesn't do is that played in or is it a plug-in or so it's like this small little rectangular box a lot of people have the pocket piano which is kind of similar but a bit different it's got these wooden round keys and i'm just holding one chord for this thing and then i've got a delay on it and then i love this plug-in sound toys pan man that's just like going around the ears

49:56a bit of tape on it and now yeah i'm feeling something feeling a little bit more and had you done all this before the session or was this all while you were having a chat with ben and this was just i just brought up a few elements i was thinking about sometimes i'm listening to stuff on the um on the tube when i'm out and about in the mornings and and that kind of filters into

50:27what i feel like sort of bringing up into sessions later in the day and i think yeah i had like tango in the night on like i said and we didn't really know what we were going to do that day because again like it was so like holly and i are quite familiar so it's nice bringing someone fresh in but ben's also part of the old school crew so we do have like a tendency to sort of just mess around all day you sort of need like a sort of teacher figure in the room yeah to set some rules exactly so um yeah we didn't really know what we're doing and so we're just jamming on this drum beat um

51:02congas and i think maybe it was on the piano yes well i think and then i remember i think i had cruel world just the title in my notes i found an old note from 2023 which has weirdly got bits of to love somebody lyrics in as well um and it just says cruel world at the end of the note and i feel like maybe maybe i was thinking about just titles that i'd had that i really liked the sound of and then i remember coming up with the chorus with you and then like you started doing this counter

51:35melody the like cruel world over what i was doing and then it all clicked into place and i was like i love this this is amazing um maybe we could hear those two bits together yeah so i mean i have a voice note oh cool yeah yeah let me find here we are let's try it let's try it from the start right and then you don't want to hear the rest but it was just that i think that i was like that's enough

52:06to go off that's enough of a bit of a song for me to get excited and be like i love i love this song and it's not even written yet yeah i like the simplicity of the lyric as well and like yeah it's cool it was fun because it almost seemed like too easy um it's a cruel world without you baby yeah and that's it yeah it was like no i think that's why it's good yeah there was a lot of alternative lyrics that we were circling for a while it was like without you in it and then it just sounded weird saying in it i think no yeah in it it's a cruel world without you in it um so yeah and then we

52:46just surrendered to baby because it's a classic yeah and then i know i remember there being like lots of sorry oh it's all right um i remember there being lots of alternate lyrics for the chorus as well like people are dancing but you're so far away and and then we always had wherever you are is my favorite place but yeah i love like scrolling through the notes and seeing like the alternative lyrics that just were so bad that didn't make it or people are dancing but we're covered in rain that was

53:19another one oh we're covered i mean yeah i mean yeah like i'll show you the um the cool response thing because i think what i've got as well is when we actually came come to record it i thought in a sort of fleetwood way i thought it'd be cool to get like members of holly's band so that we have different voices so you can hear holly on there you can hear lauren uh and seth jack didn't make him unfortunately but um i stepped in on uh on some stuff and it's a cruel world without you baby

53:57it's a cruel world without you it's a cruel world without your arms around me so how are you arranging all of those i mean you're doing that in the moment did you instruct

54:36them right you say this you say that i mean there's like probably the most amount of backing vocals i've ever recorded on this so it was chaos like holly's used to doing like we kind of do them in the moment don't we we build them so we'll be looping loop constantly holly's got like you know there's like 20 layers of holly doing like one one note or whatever it'll be like cruel world it's a cruel world and it'll just go like that'll loop on and on in the monotonous way and it'll

55:10build up eventually to something and so yeah i'm sort of trying to it's i'm trying to figure out where everyone's range is because lauren can sing really high so she has these like really fun little high whimsical notes or whatever so we're just trying stuff but then when we find it we're like right okay can you do that over and over again um trial and error rather than kind of map it all out beforehand and say right exactly yeah and because like when there's quite a few of us in the room as well when we're jamming around like ben and i were like singing harmonies while holly's

55:43singing and we're like oh that's cool and whatever let's get that in yeah um and then you know just layering there's something that just feels so good about harmonizing with your friends i don't know it's like connection on another level do you know what i mean yeah it feels ancient do you know what i'm saying yeah um so yeah it's always the funnest part when we've kind of written the song and we've recorded it especially if it's like a good song and we love it and it's the end of the day and we're just adding the finishing touches and we get to just spend like an hour just stacking harmonies

56:17and just coming up with like the most like lush sounding stack um that like you know resolve and like clash and then resolve again and like yeah it's just the the funnest part of the day is just getting to like put some color into the track yeah would you have already recorded your lead vocals

Recording lead vocals

56:36i think i'd had at that point yeah and when you do those what's the process uh the process is just singing section by section i think we tend to at the moment yeah um i know we're like quite comp heavy i think we like to be like quite meticulous because you don't like to i don't like to use like a lot of tune or a lot of melodyne on holly's vocal so but we'd like to take a long time about how we're going to say each word yeah we do like the details and the inflections i feel like

57:12aware you can have fun do you know what i mean so each line has a different expression yeah according to the meaning yeah of the line yeah i think we're very deliberate in the way that each each even down to the word like we we're meticulous with with the way that we record vocals i think do you want to hear some of the lead vocal yeah baby let's go not just that one word we actually redid the first line because we thought it was too like a bit too square oh really you know what i mean like two teachers packs exactly we put it we re-recorded it at a slightly later date

57:47say it back i need to hear you need your baby back that's a lot more desperate than it used to i play it cool i miss your kisses on a feedback clip

58:03and now the lights are getting low miracles and pheromones i can be a social hang grenade tick tick tick tick boom and everybody's getting close taking off each other's clothes no wonder where you are tonight it's a cruel world without you baby

58:27so on your door you've got different lines on different tracks are they each being processed differently slightly i've got um i've got some that are running into a little bit of tune because i want it to do a certain a certain thing and because i like the take that holly's used i've got some that i've got different echoes on shout out sound toys again like what's this one

58:57i think it's just my quick my way of like quickly automating things as well i'm like i think in the process i would be like the way you're delivering this like needs to be quieter or louder and then i don't have to hit the compression quite as hard but that's probably me being lazy and not just automating the normal way and and would you have recorded the well no because you're you're doing each line separately and then you would put it into a separate track no so like this um i've actually bounced this in place but usually there'd be like a big take folder and there'll be like 20 20 takes of a small amount of it yeah and then we'll pick there might be one that's strongest and

59:31then we'll pick like little little bits off that one and comp that you know what i mean so we go quite in on it yeah but i think it works and is this something that you're doing together as you're going through yeah the mix so you're kind of thinking oh well it would be nice if that contrasted with that previous line in this way it's funny i didn't really realize we did this but you know when we had joe um come in a session the other day yeah and we were just cutting some vocals and holly's boyfriend was was there and he was like sort of said that you guys like have like a sort

1:00:05of unspoken language that when you're like cutting vocals because i think we just know what's expected of each other yeah okay we're gonna do that because of that yeah i think we're thinking the same thing most of the time in the studio we speak in the same language and we're looking for yeah like we're so lyric centered like that it's like are you saying that lyrics the way that someone would say it if they were feeling that emotion yeah do you know i mean i think that's why we had to go back to that first verse because it was like well it doesn't sound like desperate enough it just sounds like yeah

1:00:36yeah just saying the words without any emotion behind them which doesn't translate as well i also find it really fun as we're going through recording thinking of little little counter melodies like on the second verse of the like yeah yeah yeah yeah you know that little bit like it's just fun to add like little random bits of color and little random bits of detail yeah we sort of have a no judgment rule it's like if you think of the idea get it down if it's bad we could don't have to do it but

1:01:09um that's like that's a trust thing because that means that we can both ask each other to do stupid stuff you know yeah yeah yeah i don't think there's anything particularly hilarious it's interesting because it it means that every time we listen to the song we hear something different in it that we might not have noticed the first or second or third or 10th time all these little details which you know keep giving you know it's very nice oh thank you one of my favorite little details in this song is the the little talking heads kind of reference thing um that you you came up with rob in the chorus and it's just like the best detail in the song

1:01:49that's like in the middle of the chorus

1:01:57this synthesizer the korg arp 2600 which is the most complicated piece of equipment that i've ever owned they used it in the making of star wars i believe it was like r2d2's voice was basically like this thing it was kind of like sat in my studio phase as i just like sort of would look at it from time's time and hopelessly uh but i managed to like make it actually make a sound one time and i was delighted and it was it was this sound it's a good sound yeah so it was worth it i just had to sell it now

1:02:33because it's just too much i think you got that one sound about out of it so that was enough yeah and you're saying that's talking heads is it like this must be the place yeah i'm thinking but yeah playing with the pitch wheel on the the thing yeah we spent ages like trying to find it perfect yeah um that's accompanied by two other on the artoria dx7 i remember playing because ben didn't actually hear like a very like distinguished version of

1:03:12the song he had like he hadn't really heard after writing on day one because we had like quite a big break between actually finishing off and i sent it and he was just like that synthesizer that's savage you can't do that he's like but obviously do it this is ben leftwich yes yeah yeah he he loved it and i was like okay if it's got a reaction out of ben then it's it's a winner right yeah and um i really enjoyed using this this dx7 um labeled one of them dx7 stupid so i'm really intrigued to hear what that is

1:03:47as well oh it's a sort of like documentary marimba sound that's kind of fun but at the end of the song it gets kind of hilarious and is is that still in there we need to hear that and yeah that's let me put that in context because there's a few things that that happen at the end

1:04:28which and i was listening to a lot of like peter gabriel at the time as well and as um sledgehammer trying to do like what would he do on in the present day exactly so that's why i sort of had

1:04:42these kind of things going on

1:04:45which feels like a really goofy advert for something uh these are a bit more serious

1:04:56which is me distorting the profit my profit five and have there been occasions when you've spent time doing that and played them to holly and holly's like what are you doing there's been times in the session where i've been like i wish he would just like give up on that like what is so good about that thing that he's clearly very obsessed with taken with but i feel like most of the time i'm like i trust the process at this point like he hasn't let me down too many times yeah i've got to trust the process sometimes like trust me yeah yeah i'm on to something

1:05:31it's interesting i think with regard to the song those sounds give it a brighter happier feel because that's lyrically you're kind of saying it's a cruel world you know it could be dark and a disaster but somehow there's some ray of sunshine somewhere that's that's what i'm getting from the music choices those little details yeah to me it feels like i mean it's the title track i feel like it's a song that fully just summarizes weirdly not that we were thinking about this when

1:06:02we were writing it but it does kind of summarize the overarching theme of the album which is like you know like love is this inherently painful thing at its core and you can't separate out the the high highs from the low lows they're all kind of mixed up in this weird kind of like confusing concoction of emotion and i feel like this is what this song is to me it's like feels like yearning and yeah weirdly matched with this really kind of sparkly kind of pop like optimistic

1:06:39like sound to it um which i feel like my favorite songs are always those songs that sound really like fun and poppy and like yeah they're matched with these kind of like darker kind of a bit more cutting lyrics i feel like to me that's the perfect recipe um yeah i love this song excellent um we're gonna look at a third song and take a quick break but let's have a blast of the ending of cruel world

1:07:22take off your shoes and stick around for a change it could be real cute if this time you stay so so um we've had a look at two of the songs from the album we got beauty pageant on the way

1:07:57in complete contrast to these two um yeah looking forward to hearing what you've got to say about it

Writing Beauty Pageant

1:08:06the next one we're going to look at from cruel world is beauty pageant so maybe we could have a blast to the master rob so it starts with a girl in a bar and she's singing from the heart glitter curtains sticky floors she would die for the applause 25 still alive

1:08:39you'll find me chronically online dry my tears i'm good to go

1:08:49cause i'm too young too sad too numb to give it is beauty pageant by holly humberstone the closing track to the cruel world album it is beauty pageant by holly humberstone the closing track to the cruel world album

1:09:23i guess where does this start and this is so different to what we've heard so far mm-hmm it is i feel like sonically lyrically such a complete departure from anything that we'd ever really made before but yeah we wrote this at decoy studios which is like this kind of writing retreat studio near ipswich i think it was one of the last ones to be written from the album i think and we just kind of needed a bit of a change of scenery so we got a whole band of band of merry men together

1:09:58and me and went to yeah i went to decoy for like two weeks and this i didn't realize we wrote on one of the days and i didn't realize it was special um until after the trip was done and my manager was like like this song is like insane um and yeah and then we had the hard task of trying to redo the the demo vocal that was a whole thing but yeah i really love this song i feel like for me i i write

1:10:28a lot about like obviously about like mental health and things like that um but i don't know i feel like like being being a woman obviously is is my whole thing and i've grown up just around girls all the time you know i have three sisters and i went to an all-girls school i really didn't have any like bros in my life until i started working with rob and my manager like apart from my dad and my cousins like no male energy at all so yeah i don't know i feel like obviously writing rooms and majority

1:11:06men heavy i'm never really in the situation where i feel like it's the right time to kind of to bring up that i want to write about this because this is on my mind but i felt like it was a safe space and there was like a gorgeous pond outside with like swans and i think just as soon as kind of was it matazara kind of played that like the twinkly kind of melody and i just felt like it was i wanted to write about yeah being being a girl and how kind of prettiness and having stamina and

1:11:38showing up every day with a smile on your face and being able to perform constantly is seen as currency and it's definitely not the same for for men and yeah it just felt like the right song again i feel like we didn't want to write a complainy song because i have nothing to complain about but i do think that it's important to kind of to show that there's there's a huge difference in how i'm presenting myself you know on stage and then you know when the curtains close and everybody goes home

1:12:08and you're kind of alone in the dressing room that's a whole a whole nother story you know um everybody is kind of showing the best sides of themselves whether that's online or like wherever and i think it's not always as glamorous as people people think you know so yeah that's kind of a little bit about the subject matter behind the song and yeah i guess there's kind of a theatrical element to it and we just we did have a lot of fun writing it as well because it was so different from anything we'd made before and so is there a demo at decoy is that what you did it yeah so i'll

1:12:44sort of set the scene up we basically decided we'd do our version of like a writing camp basically holly and i were sort of camped out at this place in suffolk and then we'd have like a few of our friends like come down and it'd be like usually it would be holly and i and then like one personal one other person but i thought it would be kind of jokes and kind of like unorthodox for us to like have one part of it where there were like way too many people there um and so there was like about six or

1:13:16was there six of us writing this song it was probably like a couple too many really to write a song but i thought i'd treat it as like a sort of like corporate weekend away organized fun yeah and run like sort of workshop rooms just for like a small part of this trip and that failed like spectacularly so we just actually all ended up like getting drunk and playing mario kart a bunch and but then all six of us in a room managed to come up with this somehow and then yeah i'll play you with this

1:13:49sort of where we got to at the end of the day but it was written fairly quickly i think i was playing some chords with ben leftwich in the morning just sort of jamming a few bits um and we were lucky that we had sort of virtuosic pianist in matt zara who was there it's a good thing about having so many people like we have a lot of skill sets so he was able to like take over and actually play it properly for like interpret what i was trying to try for okay do you have the bit that you did and then the bit that he did that would only be on like voice memo right yeah yeah but um i'll play you matt's piano

1:14:25though because it's like i kept the same thing in the demo because his playing was so great and also one of the things with this song is because it was constructed so quickly and based around a vocal performance like a lot of the timing is like really out the window uh it was to click but sort of like you know we're in and out all the time because we're just sort of led by had matt playing the piano in one room and holly doing the vocal in the other room and they're just instinctively like going off each other and then that made trying to recreate it incredibly hard so i can play you um

1:15:03matt's piano

1:15:22just sort of giving you know sort of life on my mind kind of my way sort of jam it's kind of like i feel like i'm not much of a musical theater fan but this kind of crosses that line a little bit do you know what i mean it's got that kind of whimsy about it one thing that i've found was funny um i like to sort of watch a lot of like trash tv um to sort of like decompress after sort of sessions and stuff and like i think at one point it was something like what's one of those

1:15:55like toddlers and tiaras or something yeah yeah classic mtv sort of classic and i think i just wrote down beauty pageant in uh on a notes app because based on purely like these kids in a beauty pageant and when we were sort of messing around i was like does this does this like what we're doing does this mean anything to you yeah without having like any meaning of that yeah holly had sort of found meaning in that in the sort of like competitive nature of being a woman in the modern world

1:16:25having to constantly sort of sell yourself yeah um yeah and the words did the words come when you heard the music or had you already got those words i think this song actually didn't take that long to write but we wrote it on the day in the session like with matt playing i have a voice memo of us just kind of messing around with just lyrics and i think it was one of those that felt like a song already and everybody was just scribbling stuff down and i think in the end it was just about

1:16:56piecing all of the amazing bits that that we all kind of knew what what the point of the song was and what the message was and yeah it was just about piecing the pieces together i think but a lot of it just kind of sounded like like like this like

1:17:20do you know what i mean like i love ben just going yes that's sort of his role in the room

1:17:27cheerleader yeah i feel like sometimes when when a song feels super inspiring or like a piano part all those chords just felt super inspiring and i feel like it's easy to write lyrics with somebody playing and in a room being able to kind of like bounce off everybody and again it's like a safe space where like 90 of the ideas that come out of people's mouths are like really not usable not good but like you know that 10 is like magic yeah so yeah it's about it being a safe space and you

1:17:58feeling comfortable to just shout what is in your brain yeah um and yeah without fear of judgment but yeah yeah and there's an awful lot more to it musically oh yeah there's a lot to it that's the thing so we need to dig into that and it's interesting that in some ways you know when you listen to it on the album and the initial impression because it's just voice and piano and you think all right this is just holly on her own doing this and yet it came out of the most group uh writing activity yeah no so tons because it's so i was gonna say stripped back but it's not

1:18:30stripped back as we will learn now but in some ways it is stripped back because it's just voice and piano but then there's all this extra stuff yeah i mean we we kind of had this issue that we'd made the demo and then sort of played it to people and they were like this is great this is kind of done but then it wasn't actually finished but i was like oh we've got a problem here because like demo itis is like set in like immediately and it's like but we know that holly knew that's not the vocal she wanted to keep it was bad so it was like i was like three beers down like getting frustrated that i couldn't

1:19:04reach that high note just screaming like i think it was towards the end of that retreat and i was kind of like bit done bit done not gonna lie i was so tired i just wanted to go to bed i feel like you guys it was one of those classic ones where i could see through the glass of you guys having fun in the other room and i was just like i can't believe i've got to sing like the hardest song that i've ever made right now i'm so lashed but that kind of also feeds into the like unhinged kind of nature of the song as well so i feel like that's why people liked that demo because i was i sounded like sick of life yeah carry on no it was just maybe just like two on we needed to like channel that but

1:19:40with like you know fresh holly and yeah like almost sometimes i think that if you're singing the song like too close to writing it as well like you can do that thing that kind of seems like an actor like reading a script do you know i mean rather than like really feeling the lyrics so it just needed like a minute out but i was like i knew i was up against everyone being like i think it's already good like don't move they're like obviously you've got to change it but don't touch it and i was like oh my god like how do i do with that but um so it was like this is like a performance for holly's you

1:20:13know i mean like i don't think you've had to like sing like this before no i've had to do a couple times live as well already because it's going to be like the single on on album release and i know i'm gonna have to perform it in some scary places and it's the hardest thing ever and it's kind of bit of an embarrassing song and do you know i mean it's a bit embarrassing to admit all of these things that i feel and it's just terrifying i mean every time i've played it maybe 20 times live now and each time i'm scared to death like i'm doing some sort of recital at school but they say

1:20:47that you know you could have should do something scary every day it's good for me so maybe it's good for you holly not to be too comfortable but we need to hear how how it changed and developed yeah totally i mean the original demo i'll play you a little bit of that if you're happy for me to do it oh please it's the same piano and then a bunch of new stuff basically so it starts with a girl in a bar and she's singing from the heart with a cut and sticky flaws

1:21:23she would die for the applause 25 still alive so that's the demo vocal so then maybe we should

Tracking vocals and strings

1:21:34switch to the yeah let's switch out next session so it starts with a girl in a bar and she's singing a few less beers how many times did we have to redo this vocal i feel like we did it so many times

1:22:05yeah

1:22:21the stage is yours don't forget to have a ball one day i'll make you love me come on and make me pretty

1:22:35yeah it's like a serious performance you know and it took a minute and it takes a lot out of you but i just uh i sort of did you dirty by like refusing to lower the key because it's just like be like yeah it's okay to be yeah there's a moment in one of the voice notes where rob is like higher higher

1:22:55he's like take it higher take that melody higher and i'm like i can't go away but yeah i feel like it's good to be pushed it's all good being you know i don't actually have to do any of that i just i just shout stuff yeah do you know what i mean yeah meanwhile i'm literally exactly but yeah no so we were sort of the difference between you know having the time to take the song away it was like that we talk about like huge layers of backing vocals in small i like doing the thing where i'm like sort of layering up huge amount of vocals for a small uh amount of lyrics and then there's sort of ooze coming

1:23:31in which is kind of funny because it says midlands anymore yeah we're also both from the same right town in the midlands um so love a midlands reference of course so it's like there's lyric is like you're not in the midlands anymore oh another fun thing is i wanted some clarinets on the song and the top of

1:24:07my head i was like i'm pretty sure dodie plays the clarinet so i hit up dodie and she was like i she was like in the most grueling like album campaign she was like please don't tell my manager but yes i'll sneak off and do these clarinets she sent them at like 3 a.m really cool gorgeous yeah lovely maybe maybe she found it a relief yeah she was like this is exactly the sort of thing that i shouldn't be

1:24:38doing right now i've got but it sounds kind of fun so um because there's a lot of different instrumentation in the kind of second half of the song yeah um talk us through it yeah so orchestral bits you know like we had we hadn't really worked with um a string arranger before in terms of like the way that i spoke about on to love somebody and some of the other tracks it's usually like me explaining to someone either remotely or just like one-on-one in in the studio and we'd be like okay right can you try this can try that you know but we had rosie

1:25:10danvers come in and it was such a nice process actually because she sat down and holly basically like sang a bunch of stuff at her and she was like this is cool so sang a few melody lines yeah i wanted the like uh so the chorus melody is like too young too sad and i wanted like i heard some sort of arpeggio type thing with the strings and i sang that at her and then she she went crazy

1:25:44yeah she really brought it to life and i didn't know whether it would be like intimidating working with because neither of us are like sort of classical background well you did play a bit of violin at the start i don't want to change actually um but like i certainly i'm not like i don't know a great deal of like techie music stuff so i didn't know whether that experience would be a bit sort of humbling but it was actually the opposite and then getting to have your sort of day at air studios with you know all these people turning up who are like super like you know overqualified to play our stuff like

1:26:19serious viola violin cello players is like a real treat such a treat you're like wow this is like music as well yeah and they come in and they're just so professional just like nailing your tune and you've never you've met them um and they played yeah i'll play you a little bit of what they're doing

1:26:56that's the holly line there you go

1:27:11to me i feel like those strings just make it feel like so magical and like it's from an old film soundtrack you know what i mean from like the 30s or something like that which kind of fits with the the sentiment of the song and yeah i feel like this song in particular really kind of fed into the creative of the album and gave me a lot of inspiration for for that as well so yeah i love this i love this song and these strings i'm very grateful for rosie

1:27:44but i'm too young too sad too dumb to stand a chance i'll strike a pose i'm ready come on and make me pretty this is what you wanted after all just don't forget to have a ball one day i'll make you love me i won't stop until you love me come on and make me pretty

1:28:26beautiful it's almost to me as if you know the way it expands with the string arrangement kind of mirrors the the idea that there's a story going on about a little girl growing up and doing the thing that she loves but struggling with it and then as she gets older coming to terms with the idea that actually no i still that's still what i love and i want to do it and i feel i need to do it and that it's almost as if the the grandiosity of the strings you know imply well this is all my

1:28:58interpretation implies the the that journey and growth of the human you know becoming older and learning about life yeah and the cruel world that we live in exactly and reaching some kind of uncomfortable kind of acceptance at the end of it not that i'm uncomfortable but like yeah i don't know i feel like i really i love this song because i feel like yeah just so emotionally tied to it and yeah i love it all it's amazing that's a really good summary of it yeah i think

1:29:32that's an amazing i'm gonna put it back myself to be honest nothing to add feel free to no regurgitate i will be doing that i'll be taking that um we have a couple more questions but we should have a blast of the ending of the song with everything in it just to round beauty pageant off

1:30:02one day i'll turn and face the mirror with a smile

1:30:12and the original piano is that still the same all the way through still the same piano like i said that was the foundation so it would be really hard to recreate it because that was dictating the tempo really yeah and and it has a lot of drama in it anyway yeah you know we played and like it was

1:30:45just yeah that's kind of gave the magic of that's like fed into all of the writing of the lyrics i feel like everything came from that piano do you know what i mean yeah fantastic so it was worth having that um that kind of a session that decoy and that fun games thing that didn't quite work out exactly i mean i'm just you know i'm just trying to keep this it's interesting for us

1:31:09spice things up exactly and um yeah it was weird because i don't think i'd try writing with sort of six people every time i don't think that's an exercise i'll visit too often again but it really it did work on that occasion yeah yeah yeah fantastic right a couple of questions that we ask everybody

Essential gear and advice

1:31:28with regard to this album was there a piece of kit essential to making this album do you think

1:31:35um i think plugin wise there's like a couple of bits that i think soundtoys decapitator has been has always like my sort of go-to um one that like has been saving my bacon a little bit is i think that's helped me get over the line as the god particle plugin i think it's not the sexiest pick but i've just whacked this on on complete default setting on and it's helped me get over the line

1:32:06for so many songs because it's just like an instant make your song slightly better how does it do that what uh i don't know that's why it's the gold particle exactly it's um uh it's a secret but um um so that's been really good um as far as essential i mean like honestly there's like a few recurring themes and like might say bobby's strings are on quite a lot of the songs rosie's as well your juno my juno 60 is my like absolutely like i would say desert island but it'd be

1:32:40completely useless on there without some sort of exactly but the juno 60 is the the absolute number one essential piece of kit though yes it's on that is on everything yeah finds its way on everything i love that and for holly i mean in terms of making this album do you have a piece of equipment that is that piece of equipment rob milton yeah i guess it is this guy um i mean we have an amazing selection of just like instruments as well and i feel like sometimes you can't be

1:33:13just kind of going back to the piano and reminding yourself what's kind of what's important and why you are doing this you know why we're here because we all started off well i started off on the piano and i feel like if i'm ever feeling a bit weird or don't know where something's going or like i don't know what i'm doing i feel like always kind of grounding myself at the piano whether that's your piano rob which i love or i've got one at home you know just like it's just how i have always kind of written songs and made music is like at the piano you know so i feel that's kind of my safe space

1:33:49that's always there for me to return to and yeah still my favorite my favorite instrument and it's your piano is lit throughout this this whole album probably on most songs as well it's like an ancient piano it's like super old and whatever you do to it i've tried so hard to get it to like be less noisy but there's just as as soon as you fix one squeak something else happens and like it sounds like it's falling apart and but i've kind of come to terms with like that's how it is um and that's

1:34:21like most like holly sort of piano sounds are just on that um squeaky piano i love it it's got character yeah i bring it with me every every studio i move to and it's been it's like it's huge and it's like taking bits of wall with it wherever it's gone um so yeah that's that's pretty essential too yeah yeah the other question we ask everybody is whether they have any advice anything that you've learned along the way that you would want to share with other people one thing i'd say is

1:34:57like especially with i don't know that we've kind of been learning quite a lot is that just sort of like i spend a lot of time trying to get people to think less and i've spoken a lot about being sort of instinctual on on a lot of the sort of like lyrical parts and everything i know it's super vague but i just think it's important to especially writing lyrics like trust writing quickly and refine later because a lot of the time you say what you're supposed to say without thinking about it too hard so i think that can be your biggest enemy so we've practiced that a lot

1:35:29on this record like if it's good don't overthink it yeah um so yeah stop thinking i love that i need to hear that sometimes um i guess my piece of advice would be like it's supposed to be fun i feel like it's been easier since i've started looking at it that way it feels really obvious but it's not it's been a revelation honestly this past year and a half it's not life or death it's just it's just music and it's it's supposed to be fun um and i think it's like completely changed the way

1:36:03that i've made music to be honest looking at it from that angle rather than as a job it's not that deep no one's gonna no one's gonna die if i don't write another song ever um and just have fun yeah have fun i like that yeah it's good it's not that deep and it's good to get that realization at this stage exactly yeah exactly so much ahead of you i hope so i hope so i mean anything else is a bonus i feel so lucky to get to like work with people that i admire and trust creatively and to get to release

1:36:35the songs and go play them and yeah i have the best job in the world so i hope long may it last i hope but if not i've had a good run and i love this album and what way to go out if if this is the last thing so fantastic holly rob thanks so much for coming in and talking to us it's been absolutely fantastic um we should play one more song uh an outro piece i have my selection in my mind uh make it all better is one of my favorites on the album oh yeah i think it should be a single um and i think everybody should hear it so i think we should play it now god yeah let's do it thank you

1:37:11so much for having us john it's been so fun and this is the last selection then from holly humston this is make it all better thank you for listening and in particular thanks to all of you who have signed up to support us on patreon i'm just one part of the team that brings you take notes and it relies on your support access

1:37:43to patreon includes the full-length videos of new episodes where possible ad free episodes and detailed gear lists among many other things if you'd like to join head to the link on our socials or website for pictures highlight clips and behind the scenes content head to our instagram or youtube channel and on discord you can join the growing take notes community once again thank you for listening until next time goodbye if you have a bad dream i want to make it all better

1:38:18if anybody hurts you baby i want to make it all better

1:38:34this episode is brought to you by chat gpt hey it's bill simmons from the bill simmons podcast have you guys heard about chat gpt work it's the new way to use chat gpt for bigger multi-step projects and

1:39:08when you need more than just answers give chat gpt work access to your apps and files and it can create real work documents like spreadsheets slides and structured reports get started at chat gpt.com by selecting work mode available on plus and pro plans