Samara Cyn is rap's best new writer

0:00Welcome to Switched On Pop, I'm songwriter Charlie Harding. My favorite rapper right now is hands down Samara Sin.

0:30And it's not an original take, I get it. She has been co-signed by Lauryn Hill, Erykah Baidu, and Nas. XXL named her one of 2025's freshman class. Alumni include Kendrick Lamar, J. Cole, Megan Thee Stallion, Tyler, the creator. She's received the South by Southwest Grilka Prize. She's part of Rolling Stone's Future 25, Billboard's Hip Hop Rookie of the Month, and an EP she put out last summer called Backroads. Spin called the sixth best of the year. She came up through spoken word and poetry and learned to rap by studying Slick Rick and Loopy Fiasco.

1:10She is quickly becoming one of the best.

1:17Now she's back with her third project. It's an EP called Detour, and I got to talk with her about it. So here's my conversation with my current favorite rapper, Samara Sin. Samara, thank you so much for being on Switched on Pop. Absolutely. Thank you for having me. I'm really excited to chat with you. Yeah, I'm excited too. All right, so Detour. Yes. Your latest album. Right. It's about being human, going analog. Yeah. It opens with a song called Free. Yes. It moves through sort of jazz fusion, into breakbeats.

2:00Can you tell me about the sense of freedom that you're looking for on that song and within Detour? Yeah, I think I started looking for it as a person first. What does that mean? I just feel like as a kid, like you're hushed a lot and shushed. And like as a woman, you're kind of taught to not take up a lot of space and to be quiet, like not be super loud and like out there. And I think in my regular life, I think I can be outgoing, but I feel pretty reserved.

2:33Um, I often feel it spilling over into the things that I, like my performance aspect types of things. And so I think I didn't want to put a lot of weight on this new project in terms of like overthinking everything. And like, this should be fun. This should be a fun time. And it kind of felt like I was starting to get into the pit where I was kind of not having as much fun. It was almost too serious, the things that I was doing. So I think with this project, it was a challenge and a practice for myself to allow, give myself the permission to be free.

3:22The go analog aspect is not even necessarily in like the physical sense, more so like go back to the first invention before you polished it and filtered it. And, you know, like rehearse the thing over and over and over again. Let's go back to the first invention, the first feeling of the thing. And if it's not all of these things that you think it has to be, the lyrical aspect, you know what I mean? Like let it be what it is in this moment and like lean into that instead of judging it the whole way through. And so that's where I was, I think, with Detour.

3:55I didn't want to put a concept on it. I didn't want to put restrictions on it. And with Free, the song itself, the practice for that was just to like get loud and like try to not be so in my head and in my body about it. Because when you're in the studio and you're recording and there's a bunch of people in the studio, it feels like a performance as well, you know? So it's like, let me jump around the room and scream and shout and like in somebody's house, you know, which yelling at doors is crazy. But it's just like, let me try to get in my body and be able to do it in front of other people, even if they're people that I'm comfortable with.

4:35Like, let me try to do it with an audience even still. And so that's where Free came from. Okay, so then if you're trying to invoke a sense of freedom, what are the conditions that let you write? Like when does writing happen if you're trying to bring freedom into the project? This one was tough because I was making music without anything that I had to say at the time. It felt like that. I think with this one, I chose to make it with my friends, which helped, I think, me feel a little bit more comfortable. I chose to make it with people that I view as like free people, you know, like they do what they want and they're kind about it.

5:12And, you know, they're cool with other people doing what they want. So like the environment, I think, in the room was really nice to have. And I think it's maybe this time it was good that I didn't exactly have anything to say for what the intention ended up being for this project. It's almost appropriate that the opening thing that we hear on the album is a fretless bass. Just kind of, you know, moving freely, no frets.

5:48So, Para. Unbound. Right. Para walks into the studio on the first day and he has like three guitar cases. He's like, what's up, legend? He puts all his stuff down. He's like, look what I got. And he pulls out this fretless bass. He's like, yeah, it's going to get crazy. Every single song he's like, fretless, like he's so into it. And he played a lot of like instruments on the entire project. And it was just, it was a lot of fun. He was so excited about it. We were excited about it too, but yeah.

6:18It makes it feel really alive at the beginning. And then you're kind of warming up at the beginning because sort of like giving yourself almost like a mantra, it feels like. Yeah. Which then busts open into breakbeats. Yeah.

6:34Just tell me about that musical gesture that you're wanting to say. Yeah. I think unpolished sometimes is viewed as like maybe chaotic sometimes and like unrefined. And so we were trying to find a way to showcase that sonically and it needed a switch. The beginning was very sweet and quiet and the build came pretty like naturally, you know, it's like, okay, get this build going.

7:05But it just, it needed to go somewhere bigger. And I, again, it's like, it immediately felt like the intro. And so I'm like, this is going to have to represent the project in a way. Like, I think we just need to let it be like loud and ridiculous at the end. And so once we got the drum and bass sent in by Lucas, this guy named Lucas. So it just was like a drum loop, live drum loop. And Para like got the drum loop and we were like, that's exactly, yep, okay.

7:37Like immediately the whole room kind of confirmed the thing. And then it snowballed from there into being like what it was. I had gotten this, it's like a pill bottle and it says like writer's block relief. And you can open it and in the pills, there are little like scripts or like prompts that you can like read through to get ideas and stuff. And a lot of them were really corny, but some of them were actually really cool challenges. And do you remember any of them? Like some of the corny ones were like, you know, write a song about your pet.

8:07Like, I don't know, there's other stuff too. Like write a song about like, write a love song to an object or like that type of stuff, which was kind of cool. But there were two that were really interesting that we actually ended up trying to like utilize. And one was try to write a song without any pronouns. I, we, they, he, her, anything. No pronouns at all, which is like a lot of times when you're writing, you're writing about someone and like, or myself or I, da, da, da, da. So that was really interesting to try to like find a song with like less naming of self.

8:40Like it's just about something. That's how we got the outro. But the first one was write a song with 20 words or less. Ooh. Right. For someone who writes often very long rap verses, that's a challenge. It's a challenge because you have to lean on space. And so what better space, exactly. So what better space to have than like drum and bass that still fills up the thing.

9:11And I can just jump around and freaking, you know what I'm saying, go crazy. So I think, I think we got to like 25, 27 words on that one. So we didn't quite meet the challenge, but I was like, yeah, this is, it turned into something really cool. So, so we kind of open with a detour where in detour, it takes a bunch of musical detours. I think musically people who've been following you for a minute, probably surprised by some of the really fun musical choices are happening there. And then, you know, we, we get into a whole diversity of genres, styles, lots of different vocal stylings that I want to talk about.

9:45But, you know, you talked about this feeling of like being unpolished and writing from a place of almost like, I think about it as like a, from like Buddhism, from like beginner's mind. We're just like, not starting from any expectations. Absolutely. And yet, when I listen to your rhymes, boy, are they like polished and thoughtful. And how do you know when you have a great rhyme? Ooh, you can feel it. Yeah. Where do you feel it? Ooh, I think in your chest. I think when I, when I write something and I'm like, ah, you know, I can like laugh and Google after, uh, then it's like, okay, I feel like I'm cooking for real.

10:22Do you have an example on detour where you, where you really felt that? Honestly, highest. I felt that on highest, not necessarily in like the rap verse though.

10:42It was just, the hook was just insane. And it felt good in the room. Like that was the only song where we were all in the room for that song together. All the other days, like people popped in and out of like the camp and stuff. And we're listening to it back. And it was like, it ended and we're all like, Jesus, like, okay, cool. Like this, this feels like the one from the project that is going to be the thing. Like it just felt good in your body, like warm and good in your body.

11:15Lyrically though, like, I don't know, maybe like, um, cadence wise, I have one called Ooh Shit.

11:22Can I guys? Yeah. Yeah. It's called Ooh Shit. So, uh, like cadence wise, that one was also like, ugh, this is crazy. There's a moment there where you, in, in Oh Shit, where you speed up the, the rhythmic intensity just like builds up. Right. I want to see if I can find that moment real quick.

11:53Like every time it like, it gives me this like tingle. Yeah. I got the energy to get the party up and started. Yeah. You know the moment. You got the energy. It does the thing. Right. It literally does the thing that you're telling me to feel. Right. Fuck a big hoe that's full for the girls. It ain't nothing for a freak hoe to get it poppin'. I got the energy to get the party up and started. Looking for a nigga I could make it up and park it. Turn me up, oh shit. Get right, oh shit. So on Oh Shit, you have both the big ego, braggadocio,

12:24Right. But also this very vulnerable sort of divulgent side. Hmm. Why both of those feelings in the same song? I'm curious to know, like, what do you think is the, the vulnerable divulgent side on that one? Honestly, I feel that when we were literally just talking shit. You're just talking shit. Literally just talking shit. I think there's a vulnerability in the way that you're, like, speaking about, like, my tongue so sharp it was cutting his cheek. Yeah. Only smile when he see me, he ain't smoking a weed. Cause my tongue so sharp it was cutting his cheek. Gotta work for the blessing, he's the bleed when he sneeze.

12:55Yeah.

12:58Yeah. So that one we, we leaned heavily into, like, influences from, like, Missy Elliott and, like, Neptune's. You can hear it in the beat. Even in the video, you have a sort of, like, that awesome wide angle Missy Elliott style. Yeah, so that was the, the intention there.

13:18It's very, like, Gwen Stefani, Neptune, like, Pharrell collaboration type. So, like, the goal was just for it to be simple in context, complex in rhyme scheme, clever as well. I think Missy Elliott, that's where, like, the Missy Elliott stuff comes in. Cause, like, cause my tongue so sharp it was cutting his cheek. Gotta work for the blessing, he's the bleed when he sneezed. Huh. Like, you know, it's just, like. Gotta work it. Yeah, I'm just, like, I'm so smooth that, like, it's, like, you know, like, the way that she talks about things and, like, the way that she's braggadocious is very clever.

13:56Missy got something to say. I ride down the block in an escalate. Bling, bling all in your face. I think you might need to put on your shades. I know you feel me, though. You're hating on me, but you hear me, though. And, and it's very, like, you can, you can imagine it. Like, you could see it while she's talking about it. And so, like, once it got to the second verse, I was pulling teeth by that point. And I was like, all right, how do you make the second verse live up to the first verse? Because the flows were just so, like, in the room, like, doing the flows. We would write hooks together.

14:26We would start songs. We would write hooks. And then after everybody would leave, I would write rap verses. And after everybody left, I'm working on this second verse. And I'm like, it took, like, three hours, I think, just for me to get the second verse. What are some of the details that, for you as a rapper, where you're like, that's clever? Like, what are some of the just, like, the techniques and things that, when you're delivering, you're like, oh, I did that really well? So, you can't, how do you talk about something without saying what that thing is?

14:57How do I tell you I was listening to the stereo without saying stereo? And so, how do I tell you I'm clever without saying, yeah, I'm clever? Because you're literally writing a song about how clever you are. Right. It's pretty mad. My tongue's so sharp, it was cutting sheet. You know what I mean? Like, which sounds like we were kissing. It sounds like all these other things. No, I would talk so slick that, you know what I'm saying? Like, there's a level of, like, oh, I can see that as you're building it out. And so, that's one thing. I like to say the thing the way that you didn't expect it. And I like for it to have imagery as well.

15:31I really try for it to have imagery because there's so much music out. Because we're all consuming the music, there's a way that you think to say something that a lot of other people would also think to say it that same way. I think that's where, like, the clever aspect of it comes in is how you say something. We all have the same, what, six emotions. We all have the same. Same senses. Right, right. So, it's like, how do I talk about something that we all know about a way that you've never heard it talked about before?

16:02And I think when I know that it's not quite there yet, that's when I'm like, this can be more clever. You know? Do you have tools for yourself to get yourself to that next line? Sometimes I have to step away. Sometimes I try to think of, like, analogies. And sometimes I try to, like, look around the room to help inform the analogy. Sometimes I'll go and listen to rappers that I respect and kind of play some of their stuff to be like, you know, that was cool. Like, I listened to Missy Elia a lot that day. And in the back of my mind, I'm like, what would Missy Elia do?

16:37You know, what would Missy Elia do on this? We should all ask ourselves that if we want to be more creative. Right. 100%. So, you know, there's a few things. Sometimes it also just doesn't visit you that day and that's okay. You just got to come show up the next day. Be free? Yeah. Okay, so maybe more braggadocious than divulgent and vulnerable. I think there's a sort of vulnerability in saying how clever I am. But, okay, maybe we can talk about, like, the song Highest.

17:16Yeah, for sure. Highest, super vulnerable. You talk about having to fake it till you make it. You are a phenomenal rapper. You blow everybody's minds. But at some point, you had to develop your talent. Right. At what threshold did you know you had it as you were practicing? How did you go about it and how did you know when you had it? Um, I don't know. People ask me this. I say something different every single time. I know when I chose to make music, I still sometimes don't think that I have it. So, I think it's just like the, you want to get vulnerable.

17:47You know what I mean? Like, I think there's still times where I'm like, I don't know this for me. And that's just like the raw, the raw side of the thing. But, like, I try not to make decisions that are based in fear. Yeah. For anybody low-key, like, go do the thing. And even if you don't have the confidence, do it anyway. Fake it. You know what I'm saying? Fake it like you can. And then nine times out of ten, you will cross the, you'll cross the bridge. You know? Well, because this song, you know, especially in compared to listening to Oh Shit, it's like, oh, wait a minute. I'm seeing, you're showing us both sides of, like, how much you both believe in yourself,

18:21but also that internal mind that everybody has. I always knew a bitch like me was gonna make it. Looked good even when I had to fake it. Walking every room like a million dollar, baby. Yeah, for me to grab it, I ain't never had to chase it, baby. I was broke, I was broke. I had money on the low. Made a bad, ran it up, and I lost it on the top. Pretty much everyone I've ever spoken to, unless they're a complete, total narcissist, has that internal voice that says, you're not good enough, this will never happen for you, all that kind of stuff.

18:52Right. Why do you want to show both sides of that? Well, I think it's just, like, real. Yeah. That simple. It's real. Yeah. And I mean, to be fair, like, I don't make music for nobody else but me. You know? Like, the act of writing the music and, like, making the music, I think is, like, really, like, therapeutic. And it's a way for me to, like, voice my thoughts. I live by myself. You know what I mean? Like, I, it's not a lot of people that I talk to outside of, like, talking to my music. And so, like, it's me rationalizing all of these things. Every single introspective thing that I talk about is something that I'm currently working

19:26through that space, currently working through that thing. And I think that's how you get, like, the raw emotion out of something. Like, you have to connect to it in some type of way. And I think that's, like, the times where I'm the most honest about whether it's, like, insecurity or pride or, like, ego or I think people can relate to that because we all have those thoughts and feelings, you know? It's honest. Yeah, exactly. You talked about this need, you know, shit to feel clever because that's what the song is literally about, very appropriate. How do you think as an artist about balancing narrative?

19:59Right. Versus wordplay. I think about a song like your single, Summer's Turning, off of the last album. Yeah. You have a Middlemarch reference in it. It's really clever. The world is changing, Middlemarch, and we still getting snow. They tried to gas me up, but I'm still getting cold. The sun come up outside my window. I think wordplay helps narrative, you know? I think you can also make a song, though, where there's not a lot of narrative and there's a lot of wordplay and it's still cool.

20:30Yeah, I mean, I feel like MF Doom is just, like, all wordplay. Yeah, absolutely. I'm not going to stop listening to that. Right, right. And then there's other rappers as well where there's, like, not as much wordplay, but they're talking about something that is, like, oh, I really relate to this. And, like, you're articulating it in a way that, you know, I maybe wouldn't have been able to articulate myself or I have it said out loud or whatever. So there's, like, two sides of the thing. I think having both gives you, like, a really great record. I think Kendrick does that very well.

21:08It's really great to have narrative. It's really great to have pure vibes, you know? But when you can have narrative in a song that is pure vibes, I think that's the code that a lot of people are trying to crack, and very few people can accomplish cracking that code. Yeah. One of your biggest hits, The Sinners, I feel like that song does that just left and right. I think about, you know, your line of how much your hands are in the chicken.

21:49Like, you're doing the work. Right. No churches. Yeah. And then just, like, you know, relating your own experience of hustling through this life and characterizing it within the foundation story, the Genesis story. Right. The relationship to Eve. Yeah. Constantly, it's, like, playing back and forth between your life, the first verses ever. It's so clever. And yet, I feel like I'm on a story the entire way through. Yeah. Thank you. So, Sinner's funny because Sinner was very clever, and I was in a full estate when I made

22:23that. I was in my bonnet in Orlando, Florida, and I was actually going to Disney World. Fun. Yeah. That's so delicate and sweet in comparison to, like, a song called Sinner. Right. Right. I was performing at, they have, like, a Dreamer, they have this thing called Dreamers Academy where they, like, they have, like, a, I guess, conference or, like, workshops or whatever for, like, high school students that come through, and, like, then there's, like, performers and everything. It's all in, like, art and, like, music and other things, like, animation and all types of different art.

22:54And I performed there. So, then I was going to Disney World, and then we were, like, while we're here, we should stop at the studio. But, yeah. The whole thing was very free-flowing. It happened very naturally. And so, even looking back, it kind of, like, speaks to the fact that maybe something else is, like, speaking through you when you're writing something. Because there's times where I'll write something without the intention of it being as clever as it is. And then I read it, like, you know, I'm listening to it back, and I'm, like, that's a triple entendre, Loki, if you think about it, because da-da-da-da-da-da. So, it's, like, there are things in Sinner that, like, worked out perfectly, Eve being

23:29a rapper that I really admire. Of course, that as well. That's the... You know what I'm saying? Like, it's just, like, things that kind of, like, work out. I said on this project, in over-influence, I have a song where I just rap straight through the whole thing, and I said, um, y'all PCOD, y'all some Overtons. Y'all PCOD, y'all some Overtons. I got PTSD from these Overtons. I was young when I got out in brokerages. I got settled one time, I ain't over it. Had to walk out that house with a broken rib. Had to get myself together, ain't perfect yet. And at the time, I didn't know that Overtons was, like, an actual term.

24:02The Overtons window? Somebody had said, oh, yeah, Overtons, da-da-da-da-da. And I was, like, Overtons? Like, Overtons? And they explained to me what it was, and I looked it up, and I was, like, yeah, Overtons window. Oh, wait, hold on. Yeah, you see, you know more about it than I do. Well, we're in a journalistic outfit here, right here. The Overtons window is basically, like, the realm of acceptability, right? It's the things that we can talk about in public. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm talking about simple-minded people in that song. And I was, like, and I was talking about how, like, PC, like, playing computer or whatever,

24:34like, NPCs, non-person computer. I was talking about how, like, they're just super OD, and, like, how y'all just walk through and just being simple everywhere, y'all some Overtons. And, you know what I mean? Like, just a bunch of little Overtons. And then that ended up being, like, an actual theory that I was, like, my friend, like, explained to me. I'm, like, didn't even know it was that cool. Kind of sounds like you were writing a song about being a sinner, and yet some kind of higher power was writing through you. I mean, yeah, for Sinnery, for Sinnery, it just happened very quick. Yeah. Sinnery is also not my most, like, lyrically, I think, inclined song.

25:08But for Overinfluence on this project, I felt like it was, I think there was, it was really clever writing. Yeah. In addition to, like, many different styles of writing, the sense of freedom you're invoking, one of the things that I really am attracted to in this project is that you use your voice in so many different ways. On top of being rapper-singer, you have different rap voices. Like, how you sound on Nomad is direct and clear. Sometimes I'm scared to be away too long. Cause if I'm away too long, I'll lose it forever.

25:40Like, up until this point has only been luck. Luck, the distant cousin of design. A drug with hard withdrawals. A little from time to time is okay, but I prefer intention. From another project, I think about, like, on Bad Brain, you have this almost, like, muted trumpet-like quality to the way that you're approaching the vocal. Right.

26:05Your singing voice transforms. How do you think about approaching a vocal and, like, building the, like, sort of shape of the sound, the timbre of the sound for that verse? I try to lean into, like, where my voice is at at the moment when I'm creating. A lot of times I kind of, like, right outside of my range for that day and I have to, like, revisit. Nomad was very difficult for me, honestly. There wasn't, like, a lot of range happening on the song, but, like, getting that smooth vocal out after a long day. My talking voice is very raspy.

26:36And so, like, when I sing, a lot of times it's very raspy as well. So the goal with Nomad was for it to be sweet. It was, like, it was supposed to be a sweet song. And so that, like, soft-spoken version of myself was, you know, like, let's let her shine a little bit and let's talk about something real. And me and Sherwin have, like, this thing where, like, if you can't get the note out or you can't, you're having a hard time, like, getting through the verse or whatever, we take a knee. And I don't know why that works, but sometimes when you just, like, take a knee and you, like,

27:09lock in, you're, like, get the thing. And so it started with me taking a knee and my voice was still cracking. And so then I took two knees and then my voice was still cracking. And then so eventually, like, my hand, my elbow, my knee, I'm, like, all the way close to the ground. And I'm just, like, trying to, I think, get the thing out. It's, like, maybe trying to ground yourself in the feeling of, like, what this is supposed to be and, like, allowing it to come out the way that it's intended to. But there's a lot of physicality in your performance. Oh, yeah.

27:40I always say, like, I'm not a technical singer. I started out in poetry, which translated into rap, which translated into I'm the only one in the studio and I really want a singing hook, so I'm just going to sing it myself, which translated to, like, now I'm actually, like, in vocalist and, like, trying to figure out my singing voice. It's there. Right. It's just learning it and then figuring out how to make it do what I'm asking it to do. There's a lot of times where I'm, like, okay, do this. And it's, like, I, you know, I'm not going to do that, you know? So, like, trying to get there and figure out the right tools to allow yourself to get there.

28:16And I think, like, being grounded but also leaning on feeling has been, like, a big thing for me because I don't care if it's pitchy as long as the feeling is translated in the thing. And I'll settle with that. Getting closer to the floor, like, helps. I'm an earth sign, so I just, like, got to get grounded. But reaching up, I always, I do one of these. If I'm doing something that fades out, I'll hit one of those. Like, it's, it is, like, a... Oh, there's dance to the performance. Yeah. It's, like, yeah, interpretive dance to get your, to get your vocals out.

28:49I learned from an A&R yesterday the head nod test. He's, like, I just find myself, if my head's not nodding anymore, that tells me something important. Yeah, yeah. And I realized, like, you know, every video I've ever seen of people in a studio making stuff is, like, heads are nodding. Right. Which is to say that you're trying to make something that people are going to hear in their life. Right. In normal contexts. Right. In their kitchen. At a club. Absolutely, yeah. Driving. And you're in this, like, concealed chamber with no windows where sound is perfectly treated. You almost have to put yourself in the mindset.

29:20And I think in some ways the mindset is actually more putting yourself in your body. Like, you have to move. Yeah. In order to get the performance and to feel the music and whether it's telling you it's working, Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. For sure. I think it goes back to even, like, feeling something in your chest or, like, feeling in your stomach. It's like, like, that hit me somewhere. You know what I mean? Like, when you kind of like, ooh, okay. You know, I love turning somebody's face up. Like, I love turning my face up to good music, too. It's like, that's actually really good. What'd she say? Yeah, you know? So. There's a lot of movement in your work then from, like, you know, you talked about needing

29:52to one-up yourself. I know shit. Gotta write this verse. Like, committing three hours to sit solo and make the thing happen. Mm-hmm. And then also to be able to sort of, like, flip and perform it and feel it. Yeah. Are there any tools or exercises you have to be able to, like, go from being in your mind into your body? Yeah. Box breathing. Is this, like, vocal lesson stuff? No. Box breathing is, like, that's like a, like, breath work. Yeah. You breathe in for three or four seconds.

30:24You hold for three or four seconds. You breathe out for three or four seconds. And then you do it again. Gets you out of your head? Tries. It tries. There have been times where I'm, like, about to go on stage and, like, just breathe. I can't. I can't. I can't right now. But, yeah, I think, like, breathing. I think also, like, moving your body and, like, dancing around a little bit, like, playing some records, having your headphones on or something like that, I think helps me get into my body. I'm still finding my rituals.

30:54But, like, doing a vocal warm-up has recently been helping me, like, focus on something to where I'm not focusing on the thing. I'm just warming up. And I can count my breath and, like, do that type of thing. I find that, like, trying to sit down and meditate and shit, like, that does not work for me before, like, a performance or whatever. I've tried to do, like, binaural beats with my headphones and just, like, sitting still. And I'm like, oh, it's making it worse. But, yeah, I think moving my body, though. Jumping jacks, stretching and things like that, counting breath, I think that kind of

31:29helps me get into my body before a show. It's interesting you mentioned meditation not working. I once worked with a meditation teacher who also was a, who studied the neuroscience of peak performance. And he was a coach to many sports teams. And one of the things he looked at was, you know, oftentimes he's, like, a baseball player and they'll do their, like, you know, grab the hat, rub the side of their leg. They have a little routine. And then they pitch. And, again, I was always like, come on, man. That's, like, really performative. Actually, what that helps you do is it puts you back in the physicality and the mindset

32:01of where you were the last time you were in peak performance that doing a physical routine actually reignites when you were last great. Right. So it kind of makes sense that just sitting in silence is not enough. You got to, like, you got to do your little routine. Yeah, you have to do the routine. I think finding the routine is the hard part because, like, there are things that I've done maybe, like, a few times. I'm like, I actually don't think that that, like, works. You know what I mean? Or, like, oh, like, I do it one time and then I don't do it this time. I'm like, no, I need to do that every single time I'm about to step out. So there are still, I still shit breaks every time I'm about to go on stage, every single

32:38time. You have gotten to perform on some pretty amazing stages. Yeah. You have had co-signs from Lauryn Hill, Erykah Badu, some of the just, like, big, awesome greats of music. You perform with Nas. Yeah. What are some of the things that you've learned being around these legends that you have internalized as part of your artistic practice? Man, I think boundaries. This is the part where I ask you about, who are you dating? No, I'm just joking. No, I think boundaries, even, like, reserving your voice sometimes, choosing how to answer

33:11certain things and, like, choosing what you give your attention to. Like, Miss Lauryn Hill has, like, the signal, oh, she's always late or whatever. And it's like, I agree that punctuality is, like, you know, like a nice trait to have. But I do admire that she refuses to go until she's ready. She's on her time. She's on her time. I admire that she can sit there and be like, no, we haven't gotten this thing right. Or, well, we're going to change this again. We're going to change it again. We're going to change it again. I haven't been able to witness it, I think. But I have been able to see her on stage.

33:43And she, even the way she acts with people around her, it's like, she's very kind. And then she closes it. Yeah. Then she leaves. You know what I mean? It's like, it's just, like, very boundary-wise. Even Nas, I was having a conversation with Nas, and somebody came up to take a picture, and he was just, like, very respectful. You know what I mean? But was like, not right now. You know what I mean? This feels very appropriate, actually, given some of the messages on these records. You know, the feeling sort of, like, detaching, being free, letting go of digital life. If someone like Lauryn Hill, creativity has always been on her time, and aren't we all

34:14the benefit of it? It's like, she has given us very little work. Yeah. And she has given us only excellent work. Right. And every time, it's like, yeah, it's going to come when it's going to come. Absolutely. It's the exact opposite of on-demand, right now, 15 seconds. Right. And, too, like, I look at somebody like Nas, who's still putting out music, because he loves it. You know what I mean? He doesn't care about it. I'm like, you've been making music for all these years, and you still have something to talk about at a high level, and talking about the stuff that applies to you now in

34:46this point in your life, instead of what I think some people kind of get a little performative at the end as well. All of that stuff is very, like, interesting. I also think, like, the co-signs from people like that have given me a little bit of, like, reassurance and, like, confirmation that, like, I'm doing the right work, and that there's a path for me. That's been really cool. That's amazing. You said to Billboard recently that it's grind time. Detour often talks about the emotional cost of ambition.

35:17Yeah, yeah, yeah. How do you process and manage that tension? It talks about that because, again, a lesson that I think I'm trying to figure out in real time. I think when you're at the beginning of your career, you feel like you haven't earned saying no. So, I think oftentimes in my eagerness to want to do all of the things, maybe there's

35:49a little bit of, like, people-pleasing maybe in there somewhere that wants to make sure that everybody, you know, gets what they need, and, like, I do everything, you know, check it off the list, but I oftentimes feel like it spreads me out very thin. And, like, even when I say, like, okay, no more before this, you know, an opportunity will come in, and I'll be like, yeah, like, I'll go do that, and, like, yeah, I'll go do this or whatever, and I think I'm in a season of, like, discernment and, like, learning when it's, like, okay to say no and what type of things that I should be saying no to, even

36:22if I really want to do them, but allowing myself to, like, be guilt-free if I don't do these things, and I think reminding myself that nobody can hold, like, an opportunity over my head. Like, if it's meant to happen, then it'll happen, and if, like, somebody gets mad that I didn't do that one thing, it's just, like, it just is what it is, you know? Well, earlier you talked about being clever by showing, not telling. You just gave me the greatest compliment ever, because you showed up today, so thank you for saying yes to this. I really appreciate it. Yeah, absolutely. I was happy to be invited on, yeah.

36:53And I'm really excited to see the expression of freedom. Yeah. It's something I think many of us need right now. Absolutely. Thank you for being on the show. Thank you so much. Really appreciate it, Amara. Thank you.

37:11You can find more episodes at switchedonpop.com, where you can find merch and access to our newsletter. We're going to be back again on Tuesday, and until then, thanks for listening. We'll be right back.

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