Olivia Rodrigo and the second verse massacre

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0:00Support for this show comes from AT&T. Summer. It's when we share more time, more memories, and more photos. And at AT&T, the iPhone 17 Pro is your summer essential. It's center stage front camera auto adjusts the frame to fit everyone into group selfies. You don't even have to turn your phone. And AT&T makes sharing those pics with everyone easy. Right now at AT&T, ask how you can get iPhone 17 Pro on them with eligible iPhone trade-in, any condition. Requires trade-in iPhone 15 Plus or higher, excluding iPhone 16e and 17e. Requires eligible plan. Terms and

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0:40Support for this show comes from Limpy, the Lillehammer Institute of Music Production and Industries. It's a one-year program in Norway built by hit songwriters where you learn music the way music actually gets made. In the studio every day, alongside the people doing it professionally. Limpy believes classrooms don't create artists, studio sessions do. So rather than pitch you limpy, I want to introduce you to one of their graduates, a producer-songwriter who's written songs for Tate McRae and K-pop groups. Hi, I'm Gucci Caliente. I'm from Norway. For Gucci, the dream started very early. Everything started after I watched School of Rock. I was just like, this is what I want to do with my

1:14life. She's just a kid. She has her parents drive to the nearest music shop and buys her first guitar. I had nothing going on. I was like living in the middle of nowhere. I'd barely written a song at this point. It took me a long time to like understand like song structure and that, you know, songs have a chorus. It's so weird because I had this like combination of like determination and drive and just like delusional self-belief. And so Gucci started a band. I took it so seriously. I was like, we're the next big thing. We're kind of low-key just playing covers at

1:47this point. And then she booked her dream concert or so she thought. We said yes to do like a huge concert that was like way too big for kind of like our skill level. We promised them a 40-minute set and I was like, how hard could it be? We didn't have enough songs or anything. So our guitarist ended up quitting. Drummer ended up quitting. So it was just like me and my friend left. Downloaded Ableton. Cried for like three days. I'm trying to teach myself how to produce. I realized like I need to just like up my skill level like fast and hard.

2:20Every other music school she researched didn't have what she was looking for. They just seemed so theory heavy. It just seemed like, wait, when are we actually going to do music? I kept seeing these like Facebook ads for this like school and it looked so beautiful and I was like, okay, sold. I'm in. This is it for me. Stick around to find out what happens when Gucci actually shows up at Lillehammer in a little bit. Apply now at limpimusic.com. That's L-I-M-P-I music.com. Applications close May 31st. Question. What is the most embarrassing thing that you did

2:52when you had a crush? Singing the Frank Zappa song, Charlena outside a bat mitzvah in seventh grade into the New York City night because of how, how forlorn I was. That's one of the many embarrassing moments. Do you feel that it was cathartic or that you wanted to die inside? Um, more die inside.

3:24Perfect. Okay. No, no, it was slightly cathartic.

Switched on Pop Introduction

3:27Welcome to Switched on Pop. I'm songwriter Charlie Harding. And I'm musicologist Nate Sloan. And for the record, Charlena by Zappa, it remains a great track. So I've got another great track for you, Nate. Olivia Rodrigo has given us Drop Dead for a forthcoming third album. You seem pretty sad for a girl so in love. It debuted at Coachella. It made its chart debut at number one. And it might

4:00just pretend the future of music. One night I was born in bed and stalked you on the internet. It's feminine intuition. Cause I always had a vision of a standing like this. I'll crush that in the bathroom line. You're looking like an angel on the walls at first side. The most alive I've ever been. Kiss me and I might drop dead.

4:32So I take it that you've had the experience of overwhelming butterflies in your stomach from someone that you so admire that you feel like you might just drop dead? Oh yeah. I mean, that's one of the most powerful emotions powering pop lyrics for, I don't know, millennia. Right? I mean, I think it's probably motivating and powering most of society. It's how it's all the ridiculous stuff we do when we're in love. We're just running on liquid,

5:02natural gas and crushes. Okay. So that's what this song is about. It's a crush so powerful that it makes you feel so sick to your stomach that you might drop dead and die. Let's hear how Olivia builds out this song.

Song Analysis

5:22The song starts off with this bass line that has this stuttering delay. It's very unusual to put a delay on a bass because it will muddy up the entire sound. You'll lose all kinds of definition. A delay is the effect of a note repeating multiple times. Behind it is this sort of oozy, granular pad effect. Everything feels very lofty, stretched out.

5:55It reminds me almost of kind of like a soundtrack. Bear with me, if you will. I'll bear with you. Chariots of Fire. Whoa. Evangelist reference incoming.

6:10Oh, yeah.

6:18The theme of the film, Chariots of Fire, about Olympic athletes, I think there's nothing more Olympian than working up the courage to ask somebody out. And I feel like the song has that same sort of like slow, stretched out quality, this feeling like we're going to build somewhere. And she even reflects that in the first lines of the verse. I know that the bar closes at 11. She sings, I know that the bar closes at 11. I hope that you never finish that beer. It's like the clock is ticking. And I want this moment to last forever.

7:01And then she has this fabulous reference to The Cure's Just Like Heaven. You know all the words to Just Like Heaven. And I know why he wrote them now that you're standing right here. Just Like Heaven by The Cure is another song about that feeling of uncomfortable love that is so grand that you have to express it through songs. Robert Smith of The Cure is spinning on that dizzy edge of life, having to grab on to love, just as Olivia is having butterflies, making her sick to her stomach that love is so strong.

7:46Just Like Heaven also features a delay line on the guitar, not on the bass. Whoa. So she's doing a lot right here. From the introduction, we've got a little Chariots of Fire. We've got a little bit of Just Like Heaven. Big scene setting. Yeah. It is like a movie. My God, you see all the details so vividly. This is like, I think, one of the strengths of Olivia Rodrigo as a songwriter, going back to driver's license. It's like you have such a clear image in your head from the first line.

8:16She paints those images in the chorus. The song builds. It continues to grow. She starts stalking her lover on the internet, which seems like an awkward thing to do, except for everyone does it. Not stalk. Let's be very clear. That word is a bit strong, but, you know, Google. Research? Yeah. And then she adopts this sort of, like, high-low metaphor where she's picturing her in the embrace of this person pressed up in the bathroom line at this bar, but they look so beautiful that they're like the angels on the walls of Versailles.

8:50There's nothing like that feeling when you're a teenager. You've got a crush. You're hanging with them. The kiss is about to occur, and time is slowing down. The angels are descending. The choir is singing. The strings are just going insane, and this chorus is maybe a little unusual because it builds and builds and builds and builds and builds all the way to that very final moment, kiss me, and I might drop dead.

Historical Context

9:33May I opine for a moment? Because I just thought of something. Opine away. You know, Versailles, right? Yeah. Who built Versailles?

9:43Louis... Taurus? Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes, king. Literal king. The sun king. And he had a court musician named Jean-Baptiste Lully. He was a notorious dick, and he met a very ignominious end when the giant bejeweled staff he used to conduct the orchestra landed on his foot, and he developed gangrene and died. But he came up with this rhythm that was associated with King Louis XIV called the French rhythm, or the French overture, perhaps.

10:23And it's a little bit like what we hear in that instrumental chorus of Drop Dead. I mean, it's not quite the same. It's more like da, da-da, da-da, da-da, da-da. And this is more like da, da-da, da-da. So it's not quite the same, but I'm going to put it out there, and, you know, the more classical-minded listeners can tell me if there's any truth to that comparison. I like it. Yeah. All right, let's move from the 1600s back to the present. We have just had our grand cinematic kiss. Our heroine is going to drop dead. What will happen next? Let's find out.

11:05And I feel like I might throw up. Left hook, right punch to the gut. You're so, so pretty boy. I'm paranoid. I made you up. Yeah, I'd love it if you walked me home. If you promise, we can go real slow. Cause I got chewing gum and a bunch of stuff. She's fallen to the ground. She might throw up, right? Punch to the gut. Because, wow, you're just so gorgeous, this guy. And then she starts flirting with him. She's like, let's walk. Let's take a slow walk. You know, I'm just chewing gum, being a little flirtatious. She starts talking about all of her favorite places in Japan and France. France, of course, Versailles, appropriate. And she starts dropping hints, and it's like, whoa, let's make this thing last forever if we could.

11:46She's very bold, in fact, in this sort of sung, spoken, second verse. She inquires if they'll be exclusive.

12:06Let's go steady. Let's go out. Oh, I love the over-the-top emotion of what it feels like to have a crush. How funny is it to have had the first kiss, and then it's like, oh my God, I've got butterflies. I'm going to throw up. I don't know what to do. I'm going to start flirting. Can we go steady? It's like, whoa, you just escalated this thing real fast, which is what we do when we feel nervous when we're in love. There's an almost uncomfortable level of vulnerability here. And I think part of that is the way she's delivering these lines, because it's somewhere in between speech and song.

12:47And it feels like someone's, you're just like having a conversation with someone, you know, at a bar, maybe. And they're just like telling you about all this, all these emotions they're feeling. And you're like, well, I can't believe I'm getting to, you know, get this unfiltered kind of experience that this person is having. It's intimate. It's real. It's a very relatable feeling. What doesn't happen is the title. She doesn't drop dead. No. This is like the best feeling in the world, right? It's a wonderful turnaround from our expectation of, you know, you see this song, Olivia Rodrigo. She writes a lot of heartbreak songs.

13:23That's true. Right. A lot of angry songs, too. Right. A lot of angry songs. Good for you. Vampire. This sounds, you're right. You see the title and you're like, oh, this is going to be addressed to someone like, I hope you drop dead. Exactly. And it's actually an internal reflection of I'm feeling so in love. I don't even know how to handle it. And, you know, the only thing, Nate, that I think drops dead in this song is the second verse. Ooh. The second verse is totally changed. It is not the first verse. Typically, you know, I teach songwriting. It's like you write a first verse. Yes. Second verse is like, let's do the first verse again. Same melody, same rhythm. Maybe one little change up. Make sure it's memorable so that when people get to the second verse, they know how to sing along to it. Create some kind of narrative progression. Yeah. Go back to the chorus. Right. That's that's your typical second verse. And instead, she ups the ante.

14:11Just as the drums take off, we're out of that moment of that slow. I want this moment to last forever. Those delayed bass lines. No, no, no. Now we are in. Boom. It's happening. My heart is racing. Yeah. Right. Everything is picked up and her delivery has to match where the narrative is going. And so our expectations of what the second verse should do. Those expectations have died. She has killed them off. She's done something different. And this is not the only time that she has killed off a second verse.

14:49Dun, dun, dun. This is something that Olivia Rodrigo does all the time. Nate, you noted how Olivia likes to write songs of heartbreak and anger and frustration and that she's one of these great narrative songwriters. This is something that we have seen in all of her biggest singles, all of which also have played with what's happening in our second verse. So if we go back to 2021 driver's license off of Sour. Verse one, delicate, anticipatory teenage romance about getting a driver's license so we can see each other.

15:22But we're not driving up to anybody's house because I drove through the suburbs and I saw you with that blonde girl who's now a giant pop star. Wink, wink, wink. And, you know, things do not work out how she wants. And so when she gets to the second verse, boy, do we have a different kind of feeling then. I'm so excited for you to get your driver's license.

15:53Okay. Verse two speeds up. We get that pounding four to the floor kick drum. Not nearly as much variation as we're hearing in Drop Dead, but we get these sort of changes in how she delivers each of her lines. Yes. And all my friends are tired of hearing how much I miss you. Little melodic variation. And then she has this sort of great triplet flow because they'll never know you the way that I do. You can feel that she's getting angry about this teenage romance is not meant to be. Of course, in driver's license, it all explodes in the bridge.

16:50So sad. So sad. So sad. Very powerful. Maybe not as much of a big second verse turn, but has that same giant build out across the entire song. We did a whole episode on the return of the power ballad and how so many of her songs start from this very small place. And then you get to the first chorus and it's like building up a little bit. But then the next verse is almost a little bit bigger than the first chorus. And it gets bigger and bigger into the bridge. Everything, all the emotion pours out. We hear the same thing in her single off of her next album, Guts from 2023.

17:24Her song, Vampire. Same kind of thing. Verse one. She's gotten a little bit older. This is not teenage romance. This is I am really angry about a past love. I hate to give the satisfaction asking how you're doing now. How's the castle built off people you pretend to care about? Just what you wanted. Look at you, cool guy. Got it. Creep chords. Great delivery. You know, slow, terrifying creep chords with her just being like, let me tell you how much I hate you. It's kind of the it's kind of the delivery. Verse two. It's going to take a big turn.

18:01And every girl I ever talked to told me you were bad, bad news. You called them crazy. God, I hate the way I called them crazy, too. You're so convincing. We get the kick drum. I do lie without flinching. I do lie, I do lie. Ooh, what a misman. Wow. So at first you're like, OK, sounds familiar. Yeah. Except the piano is now going twice as fast. We got that four to the floor kick drum and familiar melody at first. And then she just sort of goes off into the upper register of her vocal.

18:32And all of that seething resentment gets expressed in saying, like, how dare you, you terrible vampire. She's speeding up. She's extending her phrase length. The whole song builds with that same power ballad form. If these two songs are not evidence enough, let me give you one more Olivia Rodrigo joint that really changes up that second half.

19:06Let's go to Ballad of a Homeschooled Girl. I mean, the angst just oozes through the speakers on this one. And it's it's such a perfect encapsulation of like this side of her artistry, just teenage ennui.

19:39And in particular, that feeling of like, I don't know the social codes and I'm going to say the wrong thing. Oh, what a terrible feeling. Well, it gets worse in the second verse.

20:03Wow. So this might be the precursor. Yeah, this is it. This is it. We have that same sort of spoken, sung second verse that ups the ante. Here's the deal. She's not the first to do it. This second verse switch up. It's happened before. And I think it's going to happen again.

20:30Support for this show comes from AT&T. You know, it's great about summer. All those plans we made. They finally make it out of the group chat. Seems like there's more time to fit everyone in. Whatever you've got in store this summer, capturing those moments is a must. And you can do that with the iPhone 17 Pro from AT&T. The center stage front camera framing auto adjusts to fit everyone into group selfies. You don't even have to turn your phone. No awkward cropping or asking strangers to take it. Just the perfect group selfie every time. And AT&T makes sharing those moments with everyone easy.

21:00Because you got to share the pic or it didn't happen. Right? Right now at AT&T, ask how you can get iPhone 17 Pro on them with eligible iPhone trade-in, any condition. Requires trade-in of iPhone 15 plus or higher, excluding iPhone 16e and 17e. Requires eligible plan. Terms and restrictions apply. Subject to change. Visit att.com slash iPhone for details. Support for this show comes from Limpy. Limpy believes classrooms don't create artists. Studio sessions do. It's a one-year program for songwriters, producers, and artists built by hit songwriters

21:33set in one of the most beautiful towns in Norway. And when we left off, Gucci Caliente, a self-taught producer who just cried into Ableton for three days, had decided Limpy was it. It's one year. It's everything you need to know about, like, the industry. It's one year of just, like, intense learning. And it was just, like, you're going to work like you're working in the industry. Like, you're going to be doing sessions. Like, that's basically it. In addition to all of the practice in the studio, Limpy also brings in working professionals, Grammy winners, Billboard No. 1 songwriters and producers.

22:05We're having mentors that are coming in who are actually working in the industry, who are going to, like, kind of tell you the secrets of how things actually work. It's exactly what Gucci was looking for, the opportunity to be in Limpy's 20 studios with 70 students from all over the world. It's heading down to the studios, work on music, make a new song. And you're getting, like, the muscle memory. You're getting the steps in. You're getting your 10,000 hours. And the muscle memory adds up. As the weeks progressed, I think I ended up having, like, close to 100 songs.

22:36100 songs deep. You start to figure out who you are in the room. Obviously, like, the whole fall semester is so intense. Like, you're getting to know so many new people. You're kind of, like, figuring out, like, wait, who am I in the room? What are my skills? What do I want to do? You're trying to, like, just find your place, I guess. Then something happens after the winter break. It was just, like, something magical had happened. I definitely had, like, a feeling of, like, wait, people are, like, really responding to these songs. People are really responding to these lyrics. Like, there's something that's kind of, like, clicked.

23:07It just feels like everyone kind of just, like, found their place in a way. That click is what a year at Limpy is for. More on what Gucci did with it after the break. Apply now at limpymusic.com. That's L-I-M-P-I music.com. Applications close May 31st.

23:27Support for this show comes from AT&T. You know what's great about summer? All those plans we made, they finally make it out of the group chat. Seems like there's more time to fit everyone in. Whatever you've got in store this summer, capturing those memories is a must. And you can do that with the iPhone 17 Pro from AT&T. The center stage front camera framing auto-adjusts to fit everyone into group selfies. You don't even have to turn your phone. No awkward cropping or asking strangers to take it. Just the perfect group selfie every time.

23:57And AT&T makes sharing those moments with everyone easy. Because you gotta share the pic or it didn't happen, right? Right now at AT&T, ask how you can get iPhone 17 Pro on them with eligible iPhone trade-in. Any condition. Requires trade-in of iPhone 15 Plus or higher, excluding iPhone 16e and 17e. Requires eligible plan. Terms and restrictions apply. Subject to change. Visit att.com slash iPhone for details.

Influences on Pop Music

24:26So let's go look back in time and think about where did this originate and why is it so popular right now? Mmm. I am sat. I think there's probably an obvious place to go to German Sprechstimme of the early 20th century. The what? Sprechstimme? Speech song? Spoken voice? The speech song? You know. Arnold Schoenberg, Piero Linaire. I assume that was what you were going to say. No?

24:52I was thinking about Mariah Carey and old Dirty Bastards. Oh yeah, that's my second guess. Ladies and gentlemen, introducing the old, dirty, doggies. Here we go now. Me and Mariah go back like babies were pacifiers. Oh, dirt dog, no liar. Keep the fantasy hot like fire. Okay, so let me get this straight. You are positing that the hip-hop R&B collaborations of particularly the 1990s and early 2000s,

25:32such as Mariah Carey and old Dirty Bastard, in which she sings an initial verse.

25:42And then old Dirty Bastard raps, a later verse.

25:48Are effectively the prototype for what we're hearing on Olivia Rodrigo's Drop Dead. That's exactly right. Fantasy, featuring ODB, was one of the first rap features on a pop song. The rap feature is the place that we start to hear this sort of different first and second verse. We hear a similar kind of thing on Blackstreet's No Diggity, where Dr. Dre takes the first verse. It's going down, fade to Blackstreet. The homies got at me, collab creations, bump like agony, no doubt.

26:18I put it down, never slouch. As long as my credit can vouch, that dog couldn't catch me. So this is doing it backwards. We get the rap verse first. We get Teddy Riley on the second verse, giving us a little bit of that sweet vocal. So, so good. Okay, I'm pretty persuaded by the lineage you're presenting here.

26:49Hip-hop is such a powerful force in defining pop trends generally. And yet I also suspect there must be some antecedents for this within the more specific corpus of like bubblegum pop music. I mean, I think the other path that we could take is to look at duets. So if we want to go back into the 80s, we could go to Peter Gabriel's Don't Give Up, featuring Kate Bush. Huh. In this proud land we grew up strong.

27:22So this song from 1986 has Peter Gabriel singing the verses. Kate Bush sings the chorus. Don't give up, you sue house. Don't give up, we don't need much of anything.

27:56But she also gets her own verse after the second chorus. Rest your head.

28:03You worry too much.

28:07It's gonna be alright. Okay, so when we get to the second verse in Kate Bush's singing, it's, I mean, it's a very different melody from what Peter Gabriel sang at first. It's like, I guess, reflective of these two singers having their own kind of narratives and perspectives. So it makes sense. Yeah, so this is actually labeled as a bridge on a lot of lyric sites. It feels to me kind of like its own, yeah, it's its other section.

28:37It would be a third verse or a bridge. It is where she gets to have a little bit of the narrative. And to your point, I think the purpose of this in a duet is so that each person can have their own perspective. And it's something that we hear in a lot of contemporary duets. Like if we went to Kendrick Lamar and SZA's Luther. So that's Kendrick's verse, verse one.

29:11And then when SZA comes in, totally different vibe. So in this interpretation of the classic duet done by Luther Vandross and Cheryl Lynn, previously Marvin Gaye and Tammy Terrell, as the romance increases, as does the delivery, the vocal increases its speed. We get this beautiful melody from SZA.

29:41Second verse, different, makes sense. Change of perspective. Change in this romantic relationship. And lots of other songs do the same thing. I think it was the biggest song of Lady Gaga's career. I'm not joking. Die with a smile. Yeah. I, I just woke up from a dream. Well, you and I had to say goodbye. And I don't know what it all means. So her duet partner, Bruno Mars, gets the first verse.

30:13And when Gaga comes in, in the second verse, once again, all of the feelings of love are going to amplify, as does the delivery. And she comes in with this just over the top melisma. Oh, oh. Oh, oh. Oh, oh. Lost. Lost in the words that we speak. I don't even want to do this anymore.

30:41Because you already know what you mean to me. Okay, not a huge change-up, but definitely a meaningful variation. She re-harmonizes it when Bruno comes in. The feeling of this verse is dramatically different than the verse before it. Ah, yeah, I would say so. You've got to put your own flair on it. You know, there's so many that do it. Sunflower by Post Malone and Sway Lee, two totally different verses. This is a thing in pop music duets. I think the other place that we could look to beyond rap features in duets would be the world of the musical,

Duet Influences

31:18which so frequently have different second verses from their first verse. If Die With A Smile wasn't the most important song to happen last year, I think Golden probably was. Verse 1 of Huntrix off of K-pop Demon Hunters, totally different than verse 2. We've talked about it before. It is so long to break these walls down, to wake up and feel like me.

31:48And it's really appropriate here because there's so many K-pop songs where the second verse is a rap feature, or the second verse all of a sudden goes into a reggaeton beat, and it's a totally different thing. And so it's really fitting that K-pop Demon Hunters does that both honoring K-pop, but also, you know, the musical tradition. You know who used to make musicals? Disney. Disney. They still make musicals. I don't know if they hit quite as hard. Or one of their stars, young Olivia Rodrigo, in High School of the Musical. Of course, yes. How did I not see that coming? Yeah.

32:19There's so many examples from High School of the Musical where she got her start. A fitting title would be the song Start of Something New. Living in my own world Didn't understand That anything can happen When you take a chance Feels like the start of a classic I want song in a musical. Right.

32:49Kind of establishing our characters' goals and aspirations and hopes and dreams and, you know, setting the stage, basically. That's pretty much what she says. And as the song builds and grows, we get to hear more of that character's intentions. Be the start of something new It feels so right to be here with you Oh, and now looking in your eyes I feel in my heart

33:19Feel in my heart The start of something new I never knew that it could happen Till it happened to me Oh Okay, so I know I'm just playing some clips here. What you don't know is that I didn't skip into, like, second chorus into bridge What you heard was Originally that, you know, just solo Olivia singing And then build into First chorus saying something new could happen Something new is going to happen Changes the whole thing up

33:49We don't get a second verse We get a bridge Or this second verse switch-up that I'm talking about Which is very fitting Because she's telling us Something new is going to happen She's got some duets on a high school musical Like the one with Matt Cornett on the song What I've Been Looking For And of course, if it's a duet and it's in a musical We need to have narrative progression and different perspectives We're going to get them It's hard to believe That I couldn't see You were always there beside me First verse is just, like, the most musical musical I've ever heard

34:22Piano Setting out, things are happening What's going to happen? Let's find out in the second verse So good to be seen So good to be heard Don't have to say a word Okay, a few thoughts First of all, to be clear We're not talking about the OG high school, the musical We're talking about high school, the musical, the series, the musical Or whatever it's called Sorry, sorry, thank you High school, musical, the musical, the series Correct Okay, so that's first what I wanted to establish

34:53Second, I'm a little less convinced by this one Because I do hear some of these post-chorus sections We're hearing as more bridge-like in nature Than, like, second verse And yet, I also think what you're trying to say Is that it's not just about serving the second verse function But providing a model for departing from the verse-chorus form as usual And that I do, I do buy, so

35:23Yeah, I think this is where she got a lot of the training In how to treat second verses They're very fungible Like, if you've got a duet partner The duet partner needs to do something different They need to progress the narrative And take on their own perspective Or maybe the songs just need to keep on moving Because the whole musical has to go somewhere We can hear that on a song that she wrote for high school The musical, the series, the soundtrack Called All I Want So that's our first verse

36:00Huh She had a little bit of a cursive singing thing going on in this era Totally Well, this was cursive singing era What is this? I'm guessing, like, 2018? Oh, this is 2020 Peak cursive A little bit of the pronunciation of dock there Okay, anyway, so yeah, cool track I can hear the sort of foreshadowing of the Olivia Rodrigo to come And second verse And I miss the days when I was young and naive I thought the perfect guy would come and find me

36:32Now happy ever after It don't come so easily Cool Isn't this like Proto Driver's License? It is I mean, when I heard that modulation I was getting serious power ballad vibes Serious Barry Manilow vibes And yeah, that seems like the template for Driver's License, absolutely Cause somewhere down the road Stop signs

37:04I still see Both use roads as metaphors about love Very cute But let's go back to Olivia's earlier song, All I Want And I miss the days when I was young and naive I thought the perfect guy would come and find The way that the second verse progresses is not a total switch up It's not the sort of spoken lyric that she does later It's more some melodic embellishment Big change to the production I have to point this out I don't know how to drop this elegantly

37:34But when I first heard this song It was haunting me Okay This melody Yeah I found a guy He told me I was a star He held the door Held my hand in the dark Wait, oh yeah, wait This is kind of familiar What is it? Is it like a stomp clap song? That is the first thing Oh my gosh The very first thing My brain went Lumineers? Is that what it is? It gave me a little Lumineer vibe I'm gonna save you a half hour of my own frustration

38:05Oh no, maybe it's like Avett Brothers Brooklyn, Brooklyn Take me in You don't know the place I've been How about Gotta feel like hell tonight And tears of rage I cannot buy Yep What's up, Shell Crow? Wait, what is that song? That's strong enough Strong enough Wow, deep pull, Charles Are you strong enough to be my man? Yes, okay, okay, there it is My man Dr. Sloan?

38:36I found a guy He told me I was a star It's okay, it's okay We all borrow Olivia Rodrigo does like to borrow And she's borrowing directly in the song Drop Dead You know all the words to just like heaven You know, it turns out Another precursor of the second verse switch up Is the cures Just Like Heaven What? A song that she quotes directly in Drop Dead Full circle here Show me, show me, show me

39:08How you do that trick The one that makes me scream She said The one that makes me laugh She said Threw her arms around Verse one almost sounds like It's starting in the middle of the song And verse two It's a different melody It's certainly similar But I do hear the, you know, melodic departures

39:42There's like a fungibility to it Which feels A fungibility, okay, okay, okay In line That's fair I think she's putting herself in the cure universe a little bit If she's not doing that She's definitely making connections To a lot of other pop stars of the moment I think about Sabrina Carpenter Yes Sabrina is doing this non-stop The best example I think is Please, please, please I know I have good judgment I know I have good taste It's funny and it's ironic

40:13That only I feel that way In verse two I have a fun idea, babe Maybe just stay inside I know you're craving some fresh But the ceiling fan is so nice When I talked to Amy Allen The songwriter behind that song Was Sabrina Carpenter I asked her Why are you doing that? I suppose it was just a fun thing That Jack Antonoff The producer did on the side And they were like That's cool Let's have fun Let's break the rules Yeah, I mean We have a whole different Chord progression here We, like, modulate To a new key temporarily

40:44And this is something That Sabrina Carpenter Loves to do Finding a new approach To the second verse We did a whole episode About the song Manchild Which has a first verse That begins this way You said your phone was broken Just forgot to charge it Oh, I'll fit you wearing God, I hope it's Describing the ridiculous Manchildren that end up In her life Second verse Caveman voice Why so sexy You're so dumb And I'll survive The earth so long Withering Careful how you tread here, Charlie

41:15I recall we got in some Hot water with the manosphere After our breakdown of this song I don't think I'm ever Going to win them over Nor do I desire to Sabrina Carpenter here Is showing us some great Vocal stylings On her second verses Not surprising that She also got her start In the Disney ecosystem Musical world She likes to write Very narrative songs That clearly draw From that musical background I love that insight Because I feel like

41:45And we might be Perpetrators of this As well That the Disney Pedigree of stars Like Olivia Rodrigo And Sabrina Carpenter Is something to sort of Like say in an almost Mocking way Or to be like Look how far they've come And yet It's such a foundational Part of their craft That experience Doing these Musical theater songs That as you point out Have this very Specific structure Which is often Very different

42:15Than what you encounter In the pop world I mean without Disney We don't get Justin Timberlake And Britney Spears And Christina Aguilera Let alone Keri Russell And Ryan Gosling Who are in the same Class of the Mickey Mouse Club As those other stars So this is not me Having any issue With the fact that At a young age Learning to develop Your talent Through the star ecosystem Can be a great way To launch your Artistic career The other person Who I think about Most actually With this second verse Change would be Chapel Row

42:45And her song Super graphic Ultra modern Girl She starts the song With that spoken quality That she's so famous for And it's in the second verse That we get A sung moment And there's been A lot of comparison Made between Olivia and Chapel

43:17You know too often Of course Pop female stars Are compared to each other And pitted against each other But the one thing That they're both doing Is that spoken Style delivery Chapel does it on Hot To Go And she does it On Red Wine Supernova And of course

43:50Between Sabrina Carpenter Working with Amy Allen Chapel Roan Working with Dan Nigro On production Amy and Dan Are working with Olivia Rodrigo On Drop Dead So I think that Maybe connects the dots Of what's going on here One of the things

Naming the Phenomenon

44:07I'm unsettled with though Nate Is what do we call This phenomenon These second verses Changing up When you and I Spoke earlier today We were doing Some brainstorming Yeah You gave me The Supernova verse Yes Which I think is kind of fun Unfortunately Red Wine Supernova Does the talk thing In the bridge So I don't think that works We could give it to Olivia We could call it The Drop Dead verse I've got some other options though The verse versa Like vice versa Nope You're not smiling The pivot verse The mutated verse

44:38The U-turn verse The reverse engineered verse Or the reverse Maybe the reverse Reverse tickled my fancy A little bit I've got a musical one For you though This is the one I'm going with I want to call it The Volta verse Okay Is this a reference To the prog rock Avant-garde band The Mars Volta No no no no When you were a child You took piano lessons Am I right? Yes

45:08You are a musicologist With a PhD Correct Do you know What the Prima Volta is? God damn it No I hate when you do this to me Alright When you're looking At a piece of sheet music And there's that little thing Where it's got an ending And it's like one And then it's got another one That says two The first one Is the Prima Volta And the second one Is the Secondora Volta The word Volta Is Italian for a turn Sort of like a change Volta is also used in poetry It means a dramatic shift In tone or argument It's when things switch up

45:40And everything takes a turn It comes from music theory The Volta This song celebrates Europe European travel I figure the Volta verse You're not excited I know And it crushes me Because I can tell you are And you just like Had your Eureka moment It should be right up my alley Because as you point out It's this like You know Music technical term And yet the Volta verse It doesn't I don't know It's not like Rolling off the tongue What about Versailles Because they're Oh The Versailles verse

46:12Or I like reverse Is kind of intriguing to me The reverse The reverse Let's call it the reverse Okay the reverse I like it Alright We're backing it up We're going back to reverse Which is like What we hear in driver's license When you know The car starts up Oh she's backing up Well that's Let's call it a working title And we reserve the right To amend it At any point in time But I'm glad we have it Because I do think This is A Phenomenon That we're going to Continue to hear

46:43I suspect that More and more artists Will want to play With song form In this way And that's such a Powerful place To do it Because we've been Trained by so many Generations of Pop music To expect that Second verse To follow The same parameters Of the first If you're following The you know Melodic math school Of Max Martin And other Swedish songwriters Like you're even Hitting the same Exact syllables So when Artists don't do that There's something Kind of exciting

47:13About it It's maybe a smart move To stand out In an increasingly Saturated World of music releases If you want to stand out Just back it up Flip it And Reverse it Switched on Pop Is produced by Randa Cruz Edited by Lissa Soop Engineered by Brandon McFarlane Illustration by Iris Gottlieb Video by Nick Ripps Our theme music Is by Zach Tenario And Jossie Adams Of Archiris Remember the Vox Media Podcast Network Which is part of Vulture Which is part of New York Magazine You can subscribe

47:43At nymag.com Slash pod And you can go to Our website Switchedonpop.com Where you can get All kinds of lovely Things like Toe bags Oh yeah Hats Oh yeah Baseball and beanie And bucket variety Very nice Thongs No Oh We do have Board shorts Okay board shorts Yeah Mugs The mug is Killer It's a mainstay You can find us On social media At Switchedonpop Tell us what You're loving About Olivia Rodrigo's Latest Tell us what Your favorite Banger from

48:14Jean-Baptiste Lully Is And we'll be back Next week With a brand new episode Until then Thanks for listening Support for the show Comes from Limpy The Lillehammer Institute of Music Production and Industries Limpy believes Classrooms don't Create artists Studio sessions do It's a one year Program for songwriters Producers and artists Built by actual Hit songwriters When Gucci Caliente Left Limpy She had close to 100 songs The muscle memory

48:44Of a working producer And a room full of Collaborators Who just clicked But she was just Getting started I kind of had like A bit of a crazy year After Limpy Because like Just immediately That summer I'd said yes To play bass In this band I went on tour And I also Was like Signing like My first publishing deal And then I was just like Okay I have to go To LA So me and a bunch Of friends We just like Rented a house In North Hollywood And kind of just like We just didn't stop

49:14Like you have these moments Of feeling like Something clicks Like I remember When I got my song With Tate McRae That was definitely A moment of like Oh my gosh My life's gonna change Let's run that back She joins a band She gets a publishing deal A song with Tate McRae Kind of feels like That self-delusional belief Has turned into Some hard-earned confidence I've never been more Excited about music Than I am now I'm just back To that like Giddiness

49:44And excitement Of music That you have When you start out That delusion Where it's like Anything can happen And you know I can get a I can get the world's Biggest song With the world's Biggest artist tomorrow If I just like If the song is good enough Like the world Feels so open now And it feels like It's kind of open For everyone To come in And just write An amazing song That's what a year At Limpy can do 70 students From around the world 20 studios Mentors with Grammys And Billboard number ones

50:15Who sit with you In the studio 100 plus songs You actually made With your own hands In one of the most Beautiful towns in Norway Because classrooms Don't create artists Studio sessions do Apply now At limpymusic.com That's L-I-M-P-I Music.com Applications close May 31st