Selects: The Manhattan Grid

The Manhattan grid primer

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1:33that elevates grilled meats. Explore the full array of blends and find your favorite at mccormick.com. Hi, everybody. It is on our COVID timeline, June 18th, 2020. And I am here to introduce the episode on the Manhattan grid. I loved, loved this episode. I think as most people know by now, I, in particular, am pretty obsessed with, not just New York, like I love New York as a town, but the inner workings of New York and the garbage collection and the mail delivery

2:04and building that city up from the ground up, which is what this episode relates to, is how they laid out that Manhattan grid. And here's one thing I remember from it, and here's a fun tip if you're traveling to New York. They use spikes in the ground, I think iron spikes, to map out that grid, and you'll learn that in this episode to follow. You know, so they knew where the streets and the street corners would meet up in that big rectangle. And to this day, you can still find some of those.

2:35The only place I know about them, I'm not sure if they're on the streets anymore at all. It seems highly unlikely, but I know you can find them for a fact in Central Park here and there in the rocks, those big giant boulders there because I learned about these and when I was in New York, sometime between June 18th, 2020, when we released this, and now, I can't remember, I feel like it was a few years ago, I saw one of those spikes. And I think I talked about that on a later episode, but it thrilled me to no end and I geeked out and told everybody I was with what that was and what it represented. And it was a real thrill for me.

3:06No lie. Just a spike in the rock. I thought it was super cool. So check this episode out on the Manhattan grid.

3:14Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

3:27Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant and this is Stuff You Should Know, another in our endless annals of New York City edition. That's right. This is a pretty interesting episode, I think, and my favorite part about it, this was Dave Ruse, one of our writers who helped put this together, and Dave is clearly annoyed about this whole thing and I think it's hysterical

3:58how many times he gets annoyed by the laziness of the commission. I have to say I agree with Dave too. I was annoyed by it as well. I think it's always annoying when you see somebody like have a great opportunity and just pee it away. You know what I mean? Yeah, and we should also point out Dave got a lot of his information from a really wonderful book called City on a Grid, colon, How New York Became New York by Gerald Keppel.

4:31Not Gerald McRaney, different Gerald. Right, or is it Koppel? I think it's Keppel if it's K-O-E. That's what I was going with was Keppel. Yeah, I'm going to get this book though. This is right up my alley because you know I'm obsessed with the history and the sort of formation of New York City as we know it today. Yeah, where'd you get the idea for this episode? Just my constant desire to learn about Manahatta and how that became eventually Manhattan that we know and love. Okay. I'm just fascinated by it.

5:02I love it. I love everything about it. This is definitely a big chapter because what we're talking about is the plan called the Commissioner's Plan of 1811 that basically laid out Manhattan as we know and understand and love it today. Everything north of Houston Street I should say. Yeah, and here's sort of a quick primer is Manhattan above Houston is almost a perfect grid. Broadway kind of screws everything up. Boo. But, you know, great street

5:32but it's just Broadway's like I'm not following any rules so I'm going to confuse people. But aside from that it's pretty much a grid of 11 numbered avenues that run north to south generally speaking. Then you've got Lexington Park and Madison Avenues and then 200 and this was at the time numbered streets running roughly east to west and if you want to get a little more granular than that the southernmost

6:02street in the East Village is East First as you would imagine. The northernmost is 220th Street as we live and breathe today in Inwood. Well, that's on the island technically in Manhattan if you're talking about the borough it goes up to 227th I believe. Right and if you want to go through the Bronx you go all the way up to 263. Man, that's crazy. That's so many streets.

6:33That's so many streets. That's 263 streets. You've got an East and West signifier which says and this is sort of a dummy's guide to getting around New York for the first time too if you broke your smartphone and you also don't want to walk around just staring at your smartphone the whole time. No, you're going to miss a lot. Yeah, so try and get a little intuitive feel because it's really easy to get around if you know this stuff.

6:57East and West will signify whether you're east or west of Fifth Avenue and then here's a little trick too. Odd number streets run west even number streets run east so if you come out of a subway and you know which way north, south, east and west are then you will never do the thing that I always do and walk in the wrong direction trying to go up or down. Yeah, because that's the thing like if you know

7:27what direction you're facing and you know where you're trying to go and where you are right now you can basically make your way anywhere in Manhattan above Houston Street. Yeah, and if you're like me and you have no idea ever what's north, south, east and west in New York I don't either. I don't either. I had an easy time in LA because LA has The sun? Well, they have that, but they also have geographical landmarks that make it super easy to tell which way north and like the Hollywood sign

7:58and the hills and stuff like that. Is that real? Is the Hollywood sign real? What do you mean is it real? I'm just kidding. Okay.

8:08So that makes it a lot easier. In New York when I come out there are all those big tall buildings. I never know. I can never come out and say like, well that's north. But if you know that stuff and you know that the even numbered streets run east, the odd ones run west, then you can, you won't walk in the wrong direction for a block and then get there like I do and go, oh, we should have gone the other way. Yeah, because depending on what direction you're walking, if you're walking north or south, going the wrong direction in a block isn't that bad, but if you're going east or west, it's real bad.

8:38Because those are very long blocks going east to west and that's all part of that commissioner's plan that was laid out in 1811. And on the one hand, you know, we've kind of hit upon the pros and the cons of it, that it's easy to get around, which is really saying something because New York is absolutely huge, but you could make it from one end to the other without a map, just knowing that it's on a grid and how the grid's laid out, even roughly. But the problem is it's on a grid and a grid

9:09is one of the least organic shapes around, and because this grid stretches over almost all of Manhattan, most of Manhattan for sure, it's viewed by a lot of people as kind of soulless and canyonesque because you're just totally surrounded almost constantly by big imposing buildings all at these right angles, which it feels like a very built environment. And until Central Park came along, which we did an episode on in what, the 1850s or 60s, like

9:40that was it, that was New York, there was nothing but that built environment. I got a few more of my things. Oh, okay, let's have them, buddy.

9:50Manhattan's about 13 and a half miles long, and then, so this grid makes sense, but then once you get north of 59th Street, you start to get, like Atlanta does, and a road will just change names out of nowhere. Atlanta's very famous for that, people get very confused here. It is very confusing also because the road will change names, but one of the names, Peachtree, will still be there, but it's a totally different street. Right. It does not help things. That's right. So north of 59th, avenues on the west side change names, but

10:21avenues on the east side do not. So 8th becomes Central Park West, 9th becomes Columbus Avenue, 10th becomes Amsterdam Avenue, and 11th becomes West End Avenue. What about Avenue of the Americas? Well, that's 6th, right? Or is that 7th? Oh, man, I think it's 6th. I think it's 6th. That's my understanding. But that's really not a name change. That's just something that tourists call it. Right. I remember you making fun of me when I called it that. Did I really? Yeah. That sounds about right.

10:51It was really jarring. And then to get people really confused, between 3rd and 5th Avenue, there are three avenues instead of what you would think would be one because Lexington Park and Madison fall between those. Yeah. And then south of 23rd, you've got your lettered avenues. Okay. A, B, C, and D, which is Alphabet City. So, you wouldn't need to ever pull out a map. You just have to stand in the middle of New York and listen to the first like 10 minutes of

11:22this episode, and you'll find your way no problem. All right. Should we get into this? You said people don't like the grid. There are a lot of people. I mean, what did Walt Whitman call it? Uh, Icky, I think. No, I think he said, he called it one perpetual dead flat. Yeah, and streets cutting each other at right angles are certainly the last things in the world consistent with beauty of situation. How about this one from Edith Wharton? Rectangular New York,

11:52this cramped horizontal gridiron of a town without towers, porticos, fountains, or perspectives. Hide bound in its deadly uniformity of mean ugliness. Yeah, I like hide bound. That's great. That's a great word. And mean ugliness definitely captures like a certain sense of New York depending on your mood or mindset, you know? Yeah. There's one, a guy named Peter Marcuse, who's an architecture critic. He said that the grid layout of Manhattan was one of the worst city

12:23plans of any major city in the developed countries of the world. Right, but some people love it. Some people said it was pragmatic. Some people said it really accommodated for the one thing it needed to accommodate for, which was massive growth. Let me see here. An architect named Raphael Vinoli, who's I think a modern architect, not modern, I just mean current architect. Right. But he may do modern work, who knows? He said the grid is the best manifestation of

12:53American pragmatism pragmatism in the creation of urban form. And then in 1978, a Dutch architect named Rem Koolhaas said that the grid was the most courageous act of prediction in Western civilization, clearly talking about the growth. Yes, but a courageous act, that's like architect talk right there. So, but for the most part, from what I understand,

13:24and definitely Dave says the same thing, most New Yorkers, especially born and raised New Yorkers, are not happy that that's how their city is laid out, that there's a lot of room for improvement. Is that your experience, too? Sure, I mean, Central Park is great, but as we'll find out, they didn't really plan for green spaces, and New York has done their best to kind of carve them out since then. But, you know, let's get into this commission. Well, let's talk about grids first. Do you want

13:54to? Yeah, all right. Do you want to take a break and then talk about the grid-story? Yes.

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History of grid city plans

17:07So, New York didn't invent the grid, as much as they like to boast that they did. They did not. In fact, a grid layout of a city goes back to that Indus Valley civilization that for some reason keeps popping up in the last, like, year or so. It does. I guess they're going to make a comeback or something like that. But they've just been coming out all over the place. But one of the... What was it, Chuck? Was it... Did they invent the zipper?

17:37I don't think it was a zipper. What was it? Indigo? Uh, I don't know. There's been a number of them. But anyway, at least 5,000 years ago, the Indus Valley civilization was using the grid layout to create Mohenjo-Daro, which is a 750-acre city on a grid. And then shortly after that, the Greeks said, I really like this. In fact, there's a Greek thinker and mathematician named Hippodomus, who's known

18:08as the father of city planning. And he was bullied for grids, too. Yeah. If you have a grid, it's still... These people still call that the Hippodomian plan, which is kind of great all these years later to still get recognized for your grid work. Yeah. If you're ever talking to somebody and they refer to a grid as a Hippodomian plan, that person knows what they're talking about. Or listens to this show. It's one and the same, basically. I knew you were going to say that. Let me see. The conquistadors of Spain,

18:38they kind of had a habit of coming in, conquering, and then having their template in place to create these grids as what they call the law of the Indies. And they would sort of just come in, set up shop. You got a town with a big central plaza and then a grid surrounding that central plaza. Right. And they use that for everything from Lima to Los Angeles. And this took me back in my mind to, what was the name of

19:10that colonial town in Guatemala that we visited? Oh, yeah. I know what you mean. It was wonderful. Driving me crazy. It really was wonderful. It was one of the most beautiful towns I've ever been in. But it had like a central plaza with a fountain. It was a much smaller town, but now that I think about it, it was laid out on a grid, too. And it was part of that law of the Indies that you were mentioning, that it was just like, this is how you build a town. And apparently the reason that they used that law, like in

19:42town after town after town, that they just basically took over and said, this is ours now, it's Spain's, is applying a grid was kind of a metaphor for applying order and civilization to a formerly disordered and wild indigenous, you know, town. Yeah. Which makes sense from a colonizer's perspective, but I'm sure it sucked from the indigenous person's perspective. Like everything else. Yeah.

20:13That's what this stupid right angle stuff. So New York City comes along. Philadelphia had been laid out in a grid by William Penn very deliberately, though. Um, and that grid was kind of roomy and spacious because William Penn did not like the congestion of London. No. Uh, but again, Philly, very much purposeful. Same with DC, too. Yeah. Boy, DC has a, has kind of a crazy grid. Yeah. But once you understand it, it makes total sense, numbers and

20:45letters wise and directions. Yeah. I always get lost there. It takes more getting used to than New York, too, from, from my experience and what I understand. Yeah, for sure.

Lower Manhattan and common lands

20:55So the commissioner's plan of 1811 is really sort of the demarcation point between what was first New York, uh, New Amsterdam, and then what we now know as Manhattan. Because anyone who's ever seen, uh, almost said games of New York, gangs of New York, knows that those were crazy days down there in Lower Manhattan. And things just sort of sprouted up organically from the river upward as far as the layout and the design.

21:26Uh, and, you know, you can still feel that when you go down to Lower Manhattan, which is why I love the, the villages now. I think it's just, uh, I mean, I like the simplicity of the grid, but I think what I love about Lower Manhattan is how organic it feels. It's a jumble. And, I mean, it's a jumble for a reason, because those streets largely follow these original organic paths that the Dutch settlers and earliest English settlers basically said, oh, we need to get from the waterfront up, you know, to the common lands or

21:57whatever. Let's go this way. So here's a good path. Yeah. And this path happens to meander around a salt marsh, and, uh, we avoid having to go up a hill by going around this way. So it's kind of like meandering. And it's, it's definitely locked in time from those streets down there in, in, um, Lower Manhattan. And I like it too, but it is very easy to be like, ah, are we, are you sure we're going the right direction still? It's very easy to get lost in those because it isn't at all a grid. Yeah. I've spent enough time in Lower Manhattan now to where I can landmark it. Like, it's just familiar enough to

22:29me to where I kind of know like this block and that block. Right. So I know where I'm going. Um, and you mentioned something important. I don't think we've even kind of said that New York was not all this just big one big flat slab 13 miles long that we love today because you can walk forever without ever getting out of breath because it's not Seattle. Right. Um, New York was swampland and it had hills and marshes and creeks and rocks. And it was, you know, it was kind of wild East coast territory.

23:00Yeah. And I mean, the reason that those marshes and the ponds and hills and stuff aren't there anymore is because of this 1811 commissioner's plan, it basically said, tear it all down, fill it all in, build this over it. And they did. That's the most astounding thing is they did that they, you know, as we'll see, they passed a law that basically said, we're, we're going to appoint a commission of three people. They're going to come up with three people and whatever they come up with is law.

23:31Yeah. It can't be challenged in court. We're not going to back up, back it up and change it in any way. And they really didn't as bad as the plan was in almost every way, they really stuck to it. But the thing that struck me, I had no idea about this, um, was that's the, uh, the 1811 commissioner's plan was just a ripoff of another earlier surveying map that basically provided the basis of this, of the commissioner's plan. Not even the basis of it.

24:01They weren't like, oh, we'll take this as a starting point. They just said, we'll take this, print it and put our names on it. And that's ultimately what happened. Yeah. So pre-revolutionary war, um, most of Manhattan was in that lower third of the island and we got into big time debt because of the revolutionary war. And so the city said in the 1780s, all right, here's what we got to do. We own tons of land, uh, publicly owned land and all this marshy kind of reedy, rocky, pondy area.

24:34Um, it's not developed. Let's sell this stuff off and make some dough. Uh, it's called the common lands and we need somebody to get in there and just sort of, you know, survey this and plot it all out. So we know exactly how to best sell this. Yeah. So they hired a guy named Casimir Theodore Gork. That's what I'm going with is Gork. Sure. Uh, it's not a cucumber. It's a Gherkin. Do you remember Mr. Cabbagehead from Kids in the Hall? Sure. Um, well, this had nothing to do with that, right? Right.

25:05Um, so this, this, uh, surveyor actually went through the common lands. Like basically what we understand is all of Manhattan between, uh, Houston and North Harlem, he just went across and broke it into 500 acre parcels. He had a 66 foot chain on his, um, surveying poles. And so he said, well, I'll just use that as the, the basic measurement for the widest streets. 66 feet is what it's going to be.

25:35I think he said 500 acre parcels. Weren't they five acre? Oh, yes. I'm sorry. Bigger. Big div. It's a little bit of a difference. They were five acre parcels. So that's even more work. That's a hundred times more work than what I described. That's right. So, um, he laid them out as a grid because he wasn't like, this guy wasn't out to say, here's how Manhattan should be built. Right, right. This is the best way to promote the future of growth in Manhattan. No, that was not his charge. His charge was like, hey, let's just divide this stuff up and sell it. Um, he had some interesting

26:06constraints. Uh, they had to be five acres. Yeah. Uh, they had to have a central road that, um, all of these could sort of access like fairly easily. Right. And then he had a survey chain. It's crazy to think about. This was one of the things that informed what is modern New York. His survey chain was 66 feet. So he said, all right, that's how wide the road is. Yeah, exactly. So I think that was like the, the widest road, the central access road. He called that one middle. And now I believe that's Fifth Avenue is middle.

26:37What was originally middle road back in 1796. Yeah. That's adorable. So he carved this up, this place up into, um, into these plots that are, um, 200 feet on the east and west boundaries of it. So going up and down, running north, south. But if you're on the plot, it would be on the east side of the plot and the west side of the plot. If that was not confusing before, it is now. And then across or the width was 920 feet.

27:09And that was the, those were the plots. He said, here you go. This is a, there's a bunch of them up there, but I've carved up all of these common lands and you can start selling them if you want. Yeah. Did you mention the names of the other two roads? Oh yeah. He said, I'm going to, I'm going to put two more in of these 66 feet wide roads. And, uh, he had some very clever names for them. Yeah. One was middle. Remember? Yeah. The one to the east, he named east and the one to the west, he named west. Yeah. Which, which makes sense if you're looking at it from, if you're on the

27:40middle road to the east is the east road to the west is the west road, but they run north, south. Right. Man, I hate directions. Uh, and like you said, that was fifth in the center. So that's now fourth, fifth and sixth south. Right. Uh, or fourth Avenue, fifth Avenue, and the avenues of the American. You know, you're really not supposed to say that. What a jerk. I can't believe I said that. You didn't say it like that. I didn't. You just, you just made sure that you waited until a crowd had gathered and,

28:11and really laid into me. I think I remember it. Was that our first trip to New York? Probably. Man. Probably. That's funny. We've been back a couple of times since then as a team, huh? Yeah, I know. I've got some really great memories of New York. I miss it. Yeah. It's been a while. 2021. Well, we will see you again. Yes, we will, New York. Don't you worry. At least I hope so. There are no guarantees, right? No, we will see New York again. All right. So, uh, do we take another break? I feel like there's still a lot. There's still a lot.

28:41We should keep going for now, I think. All right.

The 1807 commission and its members

28:43So, in 1807, uh, this is when the New York state legislature said, you know what? We need to, like, we're growing here. It's clear that this southern tip of Manhattan is just the beginning. Mm-hmm. So, they passed a bill that they described as an act of relative, uh, an act relative to improvements, touching, uh, the laying out of the streets and roads in the city of New York and for other purposes. Right. Which made sense. But, like I said, the, this law, they decided to just invest absolute authority into

29:15these three commissioners and said, we're going to follow whatever they come up with. Whatever they, that seems to them most conducive to public good, we're just going to take on its face that it is most conducive to public good and just go with it. That's crazy that it was just three people and that it wasn't, like, ten teams of three people submitting the best designs that then would be gone over and voted on. Like, it's really weird. No one took this, no one took it seriously, weirdly enough. It's very odd. So, who were these guys? So, there were three commissioners

29:46appointed. One was Governor Morris. Uh, his first name was Governor. He was one of the founding fathers. He wrote a lot of the Constitution, including the preamble. Yeah. He had a peg leg. He lost his leg in a carriage accident, although there's rumors that it was something else. But he was known as a, Dave puts it, an energetic philanderer. But he was apparently a very likable Benjamin Franklin-esque kind of dude, who seemed to be fairly smart, but had really

30:17no, uh, understanding of surveying as far as I can tell. No. Then, uh, his nephew-in-law, John Rutherford, he is, he was a landowner in New Jersey. In fact, I think the largest landowner in New Jersey at the time. And by all accounts, it looks like this was pure nepotism. He was late for meetings. He was not especially interested, even to the annoyance of Governor Morris. All the reasons to not exercise nepotism this guy brought to the table is one-third of this commission who's figuring out how to

30:48lay out the plan for New York City. That's right. And then the third guy, uh, Simon LeBon, no, no, no, Simeon DeWitt, excuse me. And this guy actually knew what he was doing. He was a really very respected, accomplished surveyor, worked with George Washington. I think eventually became the, um, which I didn't even know was a thing, was the, uh, official surveyor for the Continental Army and then the surveyor general of New York State. Right. So he knew what he was doing, which makes

31:19his role all the more shameful that he didn't say like, oh, well, we really gotta, we gotta get cracking. It's been three years and we've got four years to do this. Maybe he did though. Who knows? He might've been completely run over by these other two chumps. Oh, and he just got shouted down, I guess. I don't know. Well, at the very least, Governor Morris was also one of the founding members of the commission that created the Erie Canal, which was for a very long time considered one of the greatest public works projects in the history of America, certainly in the history of New York State.

31:49Um, and that kind of energy and imagination and drive just did not make it to this 1811 commission for the planning of New York. I wonder if he, I mean, this sounds cynical, but I wonder if he literally was like, man, that Erie Canal project really was a big bummer in how hard we had to work and let's just kind of, hey, look at these maps that this guy drew to sell off, uh, New York. Yeah. Let's, let's just use those.

The 1811 report and map design

32:15Yeah.

The 1811 report and map design

32:16So that's, I mean, that's kind of what they did. Like they, they had four years or they took four years. I'm not sure how long they had, but they, they took four years, um, from 1807 to 1811, um, to turn in their report. Four years of meeting sporadically true, but they still met over these, this four year period. They came up with an 11 page report to lay out these 13 miles in length, not, not even square miles, um, of Manhattan, these common

32:46lands all the way from House and Street up to North Harlem. Um, they came up with 11 pages to explain their map and their map really made sense as a grid, but again, they stole the grid from Casimir Gork. I can't remember what I called them before. Gork. I'm going with Gork now. Okay, sure. Um, but they didn't give them any credit for it whatsoever. No, I mean, I don't want to go so far as to call it a tracing project, but you know, they

33:18borrowed pretty heavily. Like the streets and the avenues were basically the exact same when, you know, earlier you mentioned the blocks were 200 by 920 feet in Gork. From Gork, from Gork, right? Yeah. This, this had the exact same layout and that was no accident. No. And they were in virtually the same spot. They did do some stuff, you know, they didn't just take his, his map like you're saying and trace it and call it their own. They, they made some changes to it. They, um, created instead of the three middle, East and West, they created 12

33:50avenues running North, South and not, not true North, South, but just, you know, for our purposes, North and South. And then they created 155 numbered streets. Yeah. All the way up to what? They added this stuff, but it's sort of just copy paste. Kind of. Kind of. But the big thing is, so adding the 12 numbered avenues was definite change to Gorks. Gorks. Never going to say the same thing twice. But was it? Yeah. Because he only had the three. I know, but he just had the three and

34:22they were like, well, we need more. So let's just do what he did all over the place. Sure. Sure. Okay. All right. Yeah. That's fair. That's fair. Yeah. I'm not there. These guys are definitely not a hill I'm willing to die on. So say what you will about them. I think they're lazy schmoes too. All right. And then they took these, they took these cross streets that are formed by the, the, the surveying of these blocks and turn them into numbered streets. So avenues running North, South, they were the big ones. 155 numbered streets running east to west. They, they widened the avenues.

34:52They said they're going to be a hundred feet wide. I guess they had a longer serving. Yeah. Bigger chain. Right. And then they widened some of the cross streets to, I guess, ease congestion. I think they widened 15 of them total. Yeah. I think the other streets were 60 feet and then 15 of them went to a hundred at 14th, 23rd, 34th, 42nd, 57, 72, 79, 86, 96, 106, 116, 125th, 135th, 145th, and 155th.

35:23Right. But why? Why those particular ones? There doesn't seem to be much rhyme or reason because if you notice, they didn't really hit their stride into keeping them separated by 10, 10 cross streets until 86th street. Yeah. So there's not really much rhyme or reason there. When they only did that for three of them. Right. Four of them. And then the streets that they did choose to widen didn't necessarily make much sense one way or the other. Like, for example, 71st street was already

35:55fairly wide. It was definitely wider than 72nd street, but they decided to make 72nd street the widened cross street rather than 71st. And apparently no one knows why. The closest thing I could find is there's some record in 1857 of somebody having to remove a big rock from 72nd street to widen it. That's funny. But that doesn't even explain or make sense because there was a bunch of houses that had to be torn down to make 72nd street

36:27widened rather than 71st, which was already wide. And had almost no houses. Exactly. So these guys were just, when you start to compile all the evidence, we'll kind of pay more out. It really seems like these guys didn't even go to the common lands that maybe they were just working from Gherk's map. Or if they did go to the common lands, they took zero notes or paid zero attention. And that all of this came from a place of laziness and ignorance.

36:57Like not knowing that 72nd was wider than 71st or vice versa would explain that decision more than anything else. Yeah. Another example is if you've ever been on the west side and you feel like, man, these avenues are big. It's because they are. The avenues on the east side are spaced at 650 and 610 feet apart or 610 feet apart. And on the west, they are all 800 feet apart for no reason.

37:27No reason at all. Yeah. It doesn't make any sense. Again, it just, it seems like they just phone this in. And what's even more astounding is that New York's founding father said, okay, we're going to do exactly what you say without questioning it. Yeah. And actually we kind of do have the reason if you read closely and we'll tell you the secret reason right after this. Healthcare can feel complicated.

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Inconvenience and lack of green space

41:23It was great. I'm still a little tense waiting for you to pay it off. All right. Here's the real reason, everyone, and it all lies in this quote that is pulled from their commission report. If it should be asked why was the present plan adopted in preference to any other, the answer is because, after taking all circumstances into consideration, it appeared to be the best or, in other more proper terms, attended with the least inconvenience.

41:54And I think that's the magic phrase right there. That last phrase, attended with the least inconvenience, and Dave rightfully says what is obvious, which is inconvenient for the three commissioners. Yeah, because their plan was extraordinarily inconvenient for basically everyone involved. Like, there was, from the people who were in charge of, like, making this, like, building this grid or this plan to the people who were already living in places that were torn down

42:27to make this grid. Yeah, 40% of places were torn down to adhere to this plan, this 1811 commission plan. Yeah. That's crazy. And, again, when you start to add all this stuff up, it does seem like the least inconvenient for the three commissioners. Yeah. And the fact that if that is true and they just included that as kind of like a cheeky little joke, you know, those guys are, they're not necessarily burning in hell, but they're

42:58probably in purgatory somewhere. I also have a lot of respect for that kind of laziness at times, so. The kind that makes fun of itself in public documents? Well, just is that up front about the fact, like, you know what? I didn't really want to work too hard on this, so here it is. Right. So, yeah, it was very inconvenient for everyone but them. They did this because of the growth population they expected. So, it sort of made sense, but they even got that wrong.

43:28They were wrong by about half of what they thought the growth rate was going to be. Yeah. That's the thing is they were saying, like, okay, this affords enough population growth to afford a population greater than any other this side of China is how they put it. So, they clearly did have at least growth on their mind in that if you build on a grid, it affords for the most growth. It's the easiest to build on. Right-angled structures are the easiest to build and settle and live in.

44:01But the thing is, is part of that law, the 1807 law that established the commission charged them with creating public squares, although it said in size and form and all that and number that the commissioners see fit. Unfortunately, the commissioners didn't see fit to make almost any kind of public gathering places, especially green spaces, for mental health, I guess is what you would call it. Yeah, and their reasoning is kind of BS, actually.

44:34I'm not sure which one it was. I guess it was Morris that—I'm not going to read the whole quote, but he basically said, hey, listen, we don't have the Seine River or the Thames winding through the middle of town, but what we do have are these two wonderful rivers that just kind of hug Manhattan, and that's enough because everyone's just going to go hang out at the river all the time because it's beautiful and gorgeous and you can swim in it, and the East River and the Hudson River will forever be our green space, basically.

45:07Yeah, basically, that was—the city had enough. It didn't need green spaces because of the East and the Hudson Rivers. And, like, in about 40 years, people were like, no, we do. We need to build Central Park. Yeah, which was a savior because I think it says here on their original plan, only 5% of the grid was public green space, and 240 of those 400 acres was a parade ground. Yes, which I didn't know exactly where that was.

45:37Do you? No, I'm not sure. I don't know. I mean, there's Washington Square Park. There's some cool kind of central promenades and things like that. And then these—you know, New York's famous for these tiny little slivers of a park kind of all over the place, but they're small. They are very small, especially compared to the surrounding areas, for sure, in the buildings. That's why the High Line was such a big deal. Yeah, it was a big deal. And I remember not quite grasping why.

46:08No, I definitely do, because there's just—people need that. People need green space. They need nature. They need to be, like, outside of a built environment, even if it's a built natural environment. You know what I mean? Yeah, and Central Park is amazing, and we love it, but that's a long way if you're in southern Manhattan to get up there. Right, right. But basically, these guys said, you don't need it. Go hang out at the Hudson or the East River. It's so wonderful and lovely. So there were a lot of people, like we said, that were really unhappy with this.

46:40This was a huge exercise of eminent domain. There were a lot of people on these lands already. Remember Seneca Village? That was destroyed to create Central Park. They managed to survive the 1811 Commission. I can't remember how long that was around, but I want to say Seneca Village was around for a good 50 years before it was leveled in the 1850s. So it would have been around on the common lands during this time.

47:10But like you said, about 39 or 40 percent of homeowners or established buildings had to be torn down. They filled in ponds. They filled in salt marshes. They completely altered the ecosystem of stuff that could have been built around or incorporated had they stopped and thought about how to do that. They just leveled everything and built a grid over it.

Eminent domain and opposition

47:33And so a lot of people were really, really unhappy about this. And they were particularly unhappy that the city administration was just sticking to this no matter what. And there were a lot of lawsuits, and all of them, from what I understand, were unsuccessful. Oh, yeah. For about 60 years, there were tons of lawsuits going on. And I know you said it was a big eminent domain act, but it was, I think, still the largest act of eminent domain in New York City. Yeah. And that includes Central Park and how they get their water, which was another good episode.

48:07Yeah, because, I mean, Central Park is huge, but it's just a small sliver of this larger area. Yeah. Let's read this one quote from landowner Clement Clark Moore. He published a pamphlet about the tyrannical commissioner's plan, and in it, it says this, Nothing is to be left unmolested, which does not coincide with the street commissioner's plummet and level. These are men who would have cut down the seven hills of Rome. Burn. Big time.

48:37Yep. So, um. Didn't matter, though. No, it really didn't matter. They just went ahead with it blindly and thoughtlessly and did. And again, like, it did accommodate growth, although they underestimated the growth.

Filling the grid and early apartments

48:51But it took a little while for this stuff to fill up. This plan was delivered in 1811, but it wasn't until 1875 that enough people had started to move in that there were more New Yorkers living above 14th Street than there were living in below it. Because remember, I mean, lower Manhattan was where it all began. So that, I mean, it took a little while to fill in, and it didn't even necessarily fill in uniformly. Um, by that same year in 1875, there's still 40,000 vacant lots left in this grid plan.

49:26And that was like about half of the space. Yeah. I love that fact. That's good. Dave has some nice facts here at the end. Um, 1869, the very first apartment building in New York was built, uh, called the Stuyvesant. And they called them, I don't even think they called them apartments at the time. It was called a French flat or a French house. Mm-hmm. But prior to that, it was, you know, tenement houses and houses. Right. And so the Stuyvesant is built, and everyone thinks it's silly that anyone would want to

49:59live in the same building as other people. Right. And they called it Stuyvesant's Folly. But, um, that it was at 142 East 18th between Irving Place and 3rd. Uh, and it was, it was a huge hit. Like, people made fun of it in the newspapers, but people signed up to live there. Almost immediately, it filled up. Uh, it was demoed and replaced in 1960. Mm-hmm. But, so this was 1869. Very, it didn't take long, though. Uh, in 1884, the Dakota was built, which still stands today.

50:31So apartment buildings kind of came into fashion, I think, probably due to Stuyvesant's Folly. Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, it went over so well and so quickly that it really opened the way for more and more to be built. Pretty cool. Um, so one thing that people point to is this Commissioner's Plan of 1811 is just like that same principle or the same significance that, um, the Spanish coming in and imposing a grid over an indigenous settlement was somehow taming the wild or the organic or something

51:06like that. And there's a, this is the turning point between kind of unplanned, organic, um, much more harmonious naturally New York and the planned modern New York that we know and love today. This is where it went from one to the other, um, almost like flipping a switch. And granted for, it took decades and decades to, to realize this plan, but, um, uh, when it, when it was delivered and when it was adopted, that was, that was it, that, that change

51:40happened and the transition began. Yeah. It's pretty amazing. I think so too. What else is there for New York? I mean, we, I figure we got water, we got the subways covered, we got Central Park, we've got this. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Um, let's see. There can't be much else as far as just the bones of, oh, I know what I want to do is maybe how that, how the mail and the trash work. It's a miracle. Oh, okay. All right. Yeah. We did the Rockettes once even too. Oh, that's right. I mean, we've done a lot of New York topics.

52:12It's true. Or maybe we should just move to a different city. Let's start talking about Des Moines. Holy cow, dude. It almost simultaneously came out of my mouth. Des Moines? Yes. That's so weird. It is weird. It's in the zeitgeist, apparently.

52:30You got anything else? I got nothing else. Okay. Well, if you want to know more about New York, just start reading and then eventually travel there. They'll give you the all clear when they're ready.

Listener mail on narcolepsy

52:41And since I said that, it's time for Listener Mail. Hey, guys. My 16-year-old son, Owen, is probs your biggest fan for real. He also has narcolepsy. I appreciate you taking on this topic and bringing some understanding of it to the masses. He was diagnosed when he was 10, and it affects every single aspect of his life. I think it has made him wise beyond his years personally and compassionate to other people with invisible struggles, but it still sucks. Yeah.

53:11If you ever want to read or hear firsthand accounts from people with narcolepsy, check out Julie Flygare. Flygare, that is F-L-Y-G-A-R-E, or Flygare, I'm not sure. How would you say that? Oh, I like the one with flavor, the second one. Flygare? Uh-huh. Who is doing all kinds of advocacy for people with narcolepsy, including a scholarship foundation. She founded Project Sleep and Voices of Narcolepsy. She also read a great book about her experiences with being diagnosed during law school called

53:42Wide Awake and Dreaming. When Owen received his diagnosis, I reached out to her for help. She sent Owen a care package with a book, a t-shirt, wristbands, a very kind card, etc., to let him know that he's not alone. That is very sweet. It is. I think she deserves an award for the work she's doing. Anyway, a great resource for sure. Thanks for the work that you do. I mean, could we get an award? You know? We've won a Webby before, I think. Well, that's true. Yeah. Sometimes it's fun and entertaining, but sometimes and often it's really important and educational

54:12as well. So, sincerely, the mom of your biggest fan, and that is from Brooke. Thanks, Brooke. And thanks, Owen, for listening. It's really good to hear from you guys. And I feel like we should send Owen something, too. Sure. Let's do it, Chuck. We'll figure it out. All right. We can't be showing up by this fly-garry person. No, no, no. Send us your physical address and we'll mail you something. That's right. And in the meantime, thanks for listening. And thanks for being a fan. And thank you for listening and thank you for being a fan, too.

54:44And if you want to get in touch with us like Brooke did, you can send us an email. Wrap it up, spank it on the bottom, and send it off to stuffpodcasts at iheartradio.com.

54:56Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Health care can feel complicated. That's why Optum uses technology to connect the people and processes that make health care easier, more affordable, and more effective. We're making it clearer for you to know exactly what your benefits cover.

55:27And to help you better manage your health, we're coordinating care between your doctors and your technology. We believe better, simpler health care is always possible. That's healthy optimism. That's Optum. Visit Optum.com to learn more. For most kids, math class moves at the wrong pace. Some are way ahead of the class. Others need more help along the way. Brilliant is the online math tutor that's visual and interactive. It's helped millions of students excel in math. On Brilliant, students can build stronger foundations or move ahead as fast as they want, from fractions

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